The increasing attacks on social media by the main stream press, fuelled in some respect by David Murray’s vague threats of litigation against bloggers, has brought into sharp focus the challenges facing the Blogosphere. It also brings into even sharper focus the prescience of Stuart Cosgrove’s assertion that this summer’s ‘epistemological break’ had begun to marginalize the Scottish sporting wing of the MSM.
The reality of that assertion is embedded in the misreporting of the FTT decision as a victory for RFC, falsely alleging that those who operated the EBT scheme had been exonerated, that RFC had ‘done nothing wrong’, and consequently accusing ‘vindictive anti-Rangers bloggers’ of playing a part in the downfall of that once great Scottish institution. It is also evident in Tom English’s rather bitter and one-dimensional anti-RTC polemic today in the Scotland on Sunday. Had it been entitled “Self Preservation”, it may have rung a few more truth bells.
I am not of the belief that the MSM is an instinctively pro-Rangers estate, but I do think that their reportage of the FTT is more geared towards discrediting the newly emergent forces in the social media area than it is towards rehabilitating the public image of RFC or David Murray.
However despite the contempt in which many people here hold the MSM and Murray, English does have a point that we would be foolish to ignore. No-one can deny that we do have a duty to ensure that we are responsible in how we present ourselves to the public. Now that our (and others’) success as a real and creative alternative has spurred the MSM into action, we are subject to greater scrutiny than at any time in the past. Our view is that we have to be pro-actively engaged in setting a standard for ourselves that is above those that the MSM have set for themselves.
We have on TSFM an audience exponentially greater than the number of posts. That presents us with a great opportunity to get our message across, but it also burdens us with an increased responsibility not to fall into the trap which has besought the Succulent Lamb Brigade.
We are a very different animal from RTC. RTC him or herself had information and insight to bring to the table that the administrators of this site do not. The founder and former admin of TSFM had the idea that the talent available from posters on the RTC – not just RTC himself – should continue to have a forum in a post-RTC world, and that those talents could be used to challenge the myths regularly represented as facts by lazy journalists in the MSM.
We have at our disposal on this blog forensic analysis of legal, media and corporate matters. We have an abundance of creative minds, all passionate about the game of football AS WELL AS a partisan love for their chosen club. With all that talent and expertise, we can make an impact on the agenda by challenging the misinformation and substandard journalism of the MSM, and our finest moments are when we do that. We lose authority and influence when the debate is impeded by bald accusation or innuendo backed up with little more than an historical view of our country.
Our biggest impact (and largest audience) is to be found when when our experts have collectively torn apart those myths presented as truths by the MSM, and when we have asked the questions that the MSM either can’t or won’t ask or answer. Those are the things that have driven the traffic to this site, and many of the emails we get congratulate us on that.
Our credibility plummets though when we go down the partisan path. We also get literally hundreds of emails from fans who ask that we cut down on the comments of those who are merely venting outrage at how they see the game being mismanaged (mainly so they can access the important stuff more quickly), and from fans who are just fed up with the constant name-calling – almost exclusively aimed at Ally McCoist and other Rangers figures.
If we claim to be an intellectual and journalistic rung or two above the likes of the Red Tops (not to mention to be decent and respectful of others), we need to refrain from the name calling and accusatory culture. We can ask questions, put items for debate on the public agenda, point out apparent irregularities and anomalies. In rushing to judgement of others from the comfort of the glow of our own laptop screens, we are guilty of the same lazy journalism we see in others. Name calling (all good fun of course on a fan site) is just a lazy thought process and as English says, comes across as “nasty”.
We never saw RTC as a fan-site. The original administrator of this blog never saw TSFM as one either, and nor do we. In order to succeed properly, we need sensible fans of ALL clubs to be comfortable and feel secure in our midst. Of course we are not breaking any laws, but can anyone honestly say that we have evolved into a welcoming place for Rangers fans?
TSFM is not about hounding any one club out of existence or into shame or infamy. In the Rangers saga we have sought to ensure that the football authorities play fair with everyone and stick to their own rules. One well kent RTC contributor, and no friend of Rangers, often said that if the FTT found in favour of Rangers we should move along and accept it. Well they did find in favour of Rangers in the majority of cases. That may not suit many of us, but we are the Scottish Football Monitor, not a Judicial Watchdog. We can say why we disagree with the decision, but criticism of the process through which the decision was arrived at is beyond our purview.
Since the accusation is often made in the MSM, we should state, unequivocally and unreservedly, that we are NOT anti-Rangers. Their fans face the same issues as the rest of us and they are welcome here. We are however, equally unequivocally against the gravy train journalism of the Scottish Football Wing of the MSM (with one or two honourable exceptions).
If the Anti-Blogateers in the press are correct, the popularity of the TSFM will recede as the Rangers Tax case reverts to the back pages before disappearing for good. However I do not believe that they are correct. I don’t believe that Scottish football fans are only motivated by either hatred – or even dislike – of one club. I believe we are more concerned with the game itself than the pot-stirrers in the MSM would have us believe, because we understand the interdependence of football clubs.
But we also understand that the people who run football clubs do not always run their clubs for the benefit of the fans. In the business world, that may not be out of the ordinary, since businesses are run for the benefit of shareholders.
However football reserves for itself a special place in the hearts of people in this country. If the people who run football clubs want to retain that favourable status, they have to be accountable to the fans.
The difficulty in holding them to account though, is that the cosy relationship cultivated between club directors, managers and players and the press renders the access to information a closed shop, and the information itself is heavily filtered and spun.
As long as we keep asking questions in response to the fruit of that cosy relationship, we will be providing people with an alternative angle and viewpoint, allowing them to come to their own conclusions, and not the one the MSM post-presser huddle delivers to us wrapped up in a bow.
For the SFM specifically, we believe that to have any influence, we need to enable the expertise at our disposal to flourish. It is also vital to our project that Rangers fans are included in our dialogue. We just can’t call ourselves the Scottish Football Monitor if they are largely excluded from participation because they feel they are being treated disrespectfully.
We can’t tolerate the accusations and name calling. We need to stick to what we have done best; factual analysis, conjecture based on known facts and on-line discourse leading to searching questions being asked.
One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities. Being truly representative of fans will make that easier to achieve.
The MSM will continue to attack the social media outlets. In one way you can understand it. Their jobs are at stake. The business model of the print media in particular has changed massively over the last five years, manifesting itself mainly in increasingly under-resourced newsrooms. Consequently it is besought by increasingly unreliable and under-researched journalism, even to the point where much of it is no longer journalism at all.
By comparison the Blogosphere has access to greater human and time resources, is able to react to unfolding events in real time, and crucially (because it has been eschewed instead of embraced by print media proprietors) has been occupied by ordinary folk with little or no vested interest.
We are still in position to provide a service in our small niche of the on-line world. We have rights to publish and speak freely about our passion, but we also have to live up to the attendant responsibilities, and thus the appeal for discretion on posting comments.
Where Tom English got it completely wrong (in the uniquely ironic way the MSM have about them), is that his industry has mistaken the rights others have earned for them as entitlement, and ignored almost completely the responsibility they had to act on behalf of those who pay their wages.
zendavista says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 12:12
I dont exspect any goodwill ….unless you can get these valid arguements into the MSM nothining is going to change,Its a travesty that the SFA SPL and SFL have blatently refused to address the obvious breaches of their own charter. …
__________________________
No ill-will, zendavista, but I think the MSM continues to let down the public. The MSM steadfastly refuse to print “the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”. When it comes to opinion, the MSM has been found to be biased, and I include the BBC in this, that establishment institution being one of the worst offenders when it comes to rolling out ill-informed pundits. (I think an exception is BBC Alba at the moment). Generally the MSM only print or report what they want you to hear; conversely, they’ll keep hidden what they don’t want to tell you.
The future is in the new media. The aim must be to make the alternative media achieve the coverage of the mainstream. Indications are that this is happening at a fairly speedy rate. In a matter of a couple of years many of us have moved from being readers and purchasers of newspapesr, to becoming occasional readers of their websites; even visiting their websites is getting rarer for me by the week.
I do believe we need to get the message to the SFA and the Leagues that we are not happy with their performance; I really think they are not getting it. I did my share of writing to the wee clubs about whether Sevco should be allowed into the SFL, and I did get responses from those I wrote to. I have not read of anyone on these pages getting a satisfactory response from the SFA to an e-mail; do they have anyone who responds to the fans or public? I think that is where we need to put pressure via SD or another suitable organisation, or via the clubs.
Most of all I think we need to see SFA business being made transparent, so that we at least we have facts to go on.
My daily trip to the official Ibrox site sees the club informing of their new betting partnership with ‘Bet Butler’. Under the headline ‘A Safe Bet’, David Evans, spokesperson for Bet Butler, states: “As we continue to build high-profile partnerships in Scottish football, it’s great to be playing a part in the rebirth of Rangers Football Club.”
So today, it’s neither an oldclub or a newclub, it’s a regenerated entity!
Definition:-
Reborn, adjective.
1 Brought back to life or activity
2 Having experienced a complete spiritual change
Let’s hope it’s ‘2’.
————————————————————————————————————————-
yea,
well as they have had a rebirth as
rangers football club
maybe they can start paying the debts that
… rangers football club owe to their creditors ?
This might be total nonsense but a Gers supporting friend told me he was buying shares for family members but the deal he was offered was the equivalent of 17.5p per share plus 16 game season ticket for next season. Crucially payable now and not in April etc. is this a ticketus scenario by the back door? This might be total rubbish as said chap is prone(?) to exaggeration but if remotely true is slightly err worrying or is it?
RM – Posted Today, 12:51 PM
According to a source close to club only £1.25m put in by our fans so far.
We know that Celtic’s people put in circa £4m at their share issue.
Come on lads lets show them what THE people will put into to support the Rangers and protect it for future generations. WATP
——
According to the thread on RM from which this is taken, there seem to be an awful lot of Bears suddenly remembering it’s Xmas-time, or their missus has just fallen pregnant, it’s a recession etc etc.
tomtomaswell says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 14:37
TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 13:28
rab says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 13:21
Dad, why do some titles have an * beside them?
Well son, its like this……………
————————————————–
Is that why the club shirt has five asterisks on it?
==============================
Even Patrick Moore struggled to explain those 5 stars
———————————————————————————
I think you guys have cracked the TRFC financial matters – The 5 stars signify that they bank with Jodrell Bank 🙂
Then again, I think McGregor was possibly with Dogger Bank.
Tom English’s 20 points regarding the whole Rangers/Sevco debacle are indeed entertaining reading. He’s a wee comic, for sure.
Except that when each of these twenty incidents were happening in real time, Mr English had little or nothing to say about most of them. But I suppose hindsight is a benefit to us all.
I also find it very difficult to stomach a ‘top twenty’ in which RTC is ridiculed – he/she did actually state that the final tax bill for Rangers would be nearer 20 million than the 130ish million Duff and Duffer had mooted – and a top twenty which is devoid of any mention of a certain CAMPBELL OGILVIE.
Are you serious, Tom? Campbell Ogilvie, 27 years at Rangers, Rangers shareholder (transferred to his missus, but we KNOW, wink, wink), 90 grand in EBTs for reasonable night out in Glasgow, head of the SFA which has let Rangers off the hook, ignored rules, tried to shoe-horn Rangers back into the SPL, went for league reconstruction as a plan B when plan A failed, engineered a ‘secret’ five way agreement, admitted he hasnt done his job, admitted that he is utterly conflicted, and now states, wait for it…., he will go for another term in office!!
And he doesnt even make your top twenty? Lol!
That glaring omission tells me all I need to know, Mr English. Why dont you go and do your job instead of copying, pasting and tagging on cheap insults at the end?
RM – Posted Today, 12:51 PM
According to a source close to club only £1.25m put in by our fans so far.
We know that Celtic’s people put in circa £4m at their share issue.
Come on lads lets show them what THE people will put into to support the Rangers and protect it for future generations. WATP
———————————
The fans in Ulster have found another outlet for their money, Union Jacks by the million.
jimlarkin
My daily trip to the official Ibrox site sees the club informing of their new betting partnership with ‘Bet Butler’. Under the headline ‘A Safe Bet’, David Evans, spokesperson for Bet Butler, states: “As we continue to build high-profile partnerships in Scottish football, it’s great to be playing a part in the rebirth of Rangers Football Club.”
So today, it’s neither an oldclub or a newclub, it’s a regenerated entity!
Definition:-
Reborn, adjective.
1 Brought back to life or activity
2 Having experienced a complete spiritual change
Let’s hope it’s ‘2’.
————————————————————————————————————————
Regenerated a bit like the doctor. we have to ask and clarify exactly WHO are you?
Also what is exactly the MASTER plan.
Here’s the Limond story easyjambo:
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/205960-man-arrested-by-terrorism-officers-over-rangers-podcast-remarks/
Haven’t spotted any comment on the fact that the Scottish football authorities are not alone in being accused of administering limp justice in response to offences committed. UEFA in the firing line:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/dec/13/england-under-21-serbia-brawl
On the Tom English 20 points whatever happened to Joanna Lumley , Shirley a top 5 candidate at least!
Danish Pastry says: Friday, December 14, 2012 at 15:28
Thanks DP
=======================
On a separate issue, it appears that Peter Cummings who was heavily involved in the demise of HBOS (and indirectly MIH and RFC) has finally been fined £500K for his misdemeanors.
For those who are interested, here is a link to a BBC article by Douglas Fraser
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20729835
ismellafix says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 12:18
I have read a few posts where the poster states that RIFC ltd currently own TRFC ltd, but as far as I am aware this new 1 month old company owns didly squat. What is even more incredible is that this is the company being floated on AIM!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I’ve posted this before but will do so again as there is an implication that the Holding company is in some way a sinister entity.
In the AIM listings I was involved in it was always cheaper and easier to have a brand new company with no history acquire the shares in the trading company and then list that company. This is because any company with a long trading history would have to be the subject of substantial legal and financial due diligence before it could be listed. This costs a lot of money.Mind you RFCL hasn’t been trading that long! Nevertheless it is normal commercial practice in an AIM listing to incorporate a new Holdco and then list it.
easyJambo says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 15:53
0 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says: Friday, December 14, 2012 at 15:28
Thanks DP
=======================
On a separate issue, it appears that Peter Cummings who was heavily involved in the demise of HBOS (and indirectly MIH and RFC) has finally been fined £500K for his misdemeanors.
For those who are interested, here is a link to a BBC article by Douglas Fraser
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20729835
__________________________________________________________________________
Did Mr Cummings not take over from Mr Gavin Masterton, who was IMO the instigator or source of financial benefits to MIH and the club now known as SEVCO?
Livingston fans may remember him well.
ohhappydayz says: Friday, December 14, 2012 at 16:01
Did Mr Cummings not take over from Mr Gavin Masterton, who was IMO the instigator or source of financial benefits to MIH and the club now known as SEVCO?
Livingston fans may remember him well.
=============================
Cummings didn’t take over from Masterton, but was head of corporate lending through most of the noughties, hence would have been well versed in MIH and RFC lending decisions.
Post #9084[Tweet]
Everyone’s Fantasy Football first pick
Group:Members
Who are the ECA ?
Quote:
The European Club Association has confirmed that Rangers remain as members of the organisation but that their status has been downgraded following the transfer of ownership.
Following administration and the subsequent transfer of assets to a newco owned by Charles Green’s consortium, Rangers lost their place in the Scottish Premier League and were later admitted to the third tier of the Scottish Football League.
The ECA is the sole independent body recognised by UEFA and FIFA as representing clubs at European level. Ordinary members of the group are required to be playing in their domestic top division and be licensed to play European football.
Rangers do not hold a UEFA club licence as a result of a break in their accounts and, having lost their top-flight status, are no longer ordinary members of the ECA, the organisation confirmed.
“Rangers FC held ordinary membership with the ECA before entering into administration and later into liquidation,” an ECA spokesperson confirmed to STV.
“Meanwhile Rangers FC, owned by the Rangers Football Club Plc, transferred all its assets, including its goodwill, to Sevco Ltd (Sevco Ltd later changing its name to the Rangers Football Club Ltd)
“Alike at Scottish FA level, this ‘new entity’ had to re-apply for membership with ECA as according to Swiss law, membership of an association is neither heritable nor transferable (article 70.3 of the Swiss Civil Code).
“In dealing with these re-application, ECA applied the terms and provisions of our membership policy and statutes.
“According to the prerequisites set out in the membership policy, Rangers FC did not meet the requirements to be granted ordinary membership (top division and European licence).
However, Rangers are permitted to hold associate membership, which holds no voting rights, as they are one of the founder members of the ECA. The organisation considers the club’s history to be continuous regardless of the change of company.
“With regards to associated membership, the membership policy states amongst others that founding members are granted automatic membership,” the spokesperson explained.
“Taking into account that the ‘new entity’ also acquired the goodwill of the ‘old entity’, it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the ‘old company’.
“Consequently it was concluded that Rangers FC was entitled to associated membership of ECA as considerer to be a founding member.”
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r…
liveinhop @ 16:20
Yet another organisation trying to perpetuate the myth of old = new
No doubt Jack wrote parts of that release for them, particularly the nonsense of the club transferring assets
This amused me
“Taking into account that the ‘new entity’ also acquired the goodwill of the ‘old entity’, it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the ‘old company’.
Charlie and Jack must owe a few people a lot of favours, to persuade them to agree to that bullshit
So the ECA are going to allow the wee mockit brother into the room because he was there when the gang started up. He just canny say anyhin now.
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 15:28
Here’s the Limond story easyjambo:
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/205960-man-arrested-by-terrorism-officers-over-rangers-podcast-remarks/
=============================
“…It is believed Mr Limond is scheduled to appear at Rothesay Sheriff Court on January 7 next year in relation to the incident…”
That’s going to put a bit of a dampener on his Christmas / New Year..
And has anyone heard about the person who was charged wrt contact with RTC, IIRC ?
I thought they where due a court appearance about now ?
re:ECA The Rangers got oldco’s SFA membership, so the history was transferred as far as I can see, nothing new there. However this new “entity”….would that entity be the club i.e. It’s a new club?
“Taking into account that the ‘new entity’ also acquired the goodwill of the ‘old entity’, it was held by the ECA executive board that the goodwill, taking into account legal and practical arguments, also included the history of the ‘old company’.
===========================================================================
Hehe – goodwill transfered – Marvellous. They’re not showing much of it to the rest of the clubs in Scotchlandshire so youse Europeans need to watch out, they have a habit of turning on their benefactors.
liveinhop says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 16:20
Thanks for providing an update to a questions I raised a few times way back in September when the last ECA meeting was held.
Mr Charles made great play about being there so the next questions are:-
When was the re-application made, when was the downgrading agreed and was Mr Charles perhaps ‘wrongly’ given a vote at September?
I know a few others tried to raise this as well including Phil Mac Giolla Bhain, so a least some kind of result has been achieved by ensuring the ECA have an eye on the new club.
liveinhop says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 16:20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ECA is nothing more than a private members club…
If we are expected to accept their view on things we might as well start accepting the view of the RST as the font of all truths!
The ECA is a little confusing in its recognition of the continuous history.
It confirmed;
– they have lost their UEFA Club license due to a break in accounts – NOT A BAN
– they lost their place in SPL due to liquidation – NOT ‘THROWN OUT’, ‘DEMOTED’ OR ‘RELEGATED’
– they entered administration then into liquidation – NO POSITIVE LEAVING OF ADMINISTRATION
– that the assets and goodwill were transferred to Sevco – NOT THE ‘CLUB’
– they compared the re-application for a new membership, alike SFA, as it is not heritable or transferable – DOES THIS CONFIRM THAT THEIR SFA MEMBERSHIP IS NEW?
– it then considered that for legal argument that the goodwill contained the history – REALLY?
I have said on many an occasion that I wished for the club to survive, that liquidation and the forming of a new club, as I have believed it to be, would see Rangers avoid punishment for a decade of deliberate cheating with regards to player registrations.
The ECA is very much an organization founded to enhance, protect and exploit the financial side of football for the member clubs This recognition of the continuation of history beyond liquidation can be seen as a decision based on a need to protect their individual vulnerability to insolvency and to see survival beyond it.
Liquidation of a company is the death of a company.
Liquidation of a BIG football CLUB is now seen as a break in it’s financial history, an inconvenience.
I’m not happy with it, but if it gives Lord Nimmo Smith the power to punish Rangers, then I welcome it!
paulmac2 says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 17:26
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ECA is nothing more than a private members club…
If we are expected to accept their view on things we might as well start accepting the view of the RST as the font of all truths!
=================================================================
It can’t all be lies. Can it?
It is interesting to see Kenny Shiels openly accuse Andrew Dallas of fabricating evidence against him at the recent disciplinary meeting.
I wonder what the SFA will do now re Dallas junior given that Shiels was cleared of the issue subject to the fabricated evidence.
Should get more info in Sportsound coming up shortly.
From the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20732353
“Rangers FC held ordinary membership with the ECA before entering into administration and later into liquidation,” an ECA spokesperson confirmed to STV.
“Meanwhile Rangers FC, owned by the Rangers Football Club Plc, transferred all its assets, including its goodwill, to Sevco Ltd (Sevco Ltd later changing its name to the Rangers Football Club Ltd).
——
Let me get this straight …
1. Rangers FC held ECA membership originally.
2. Then Rangers FC went into liquidation.
3. Meanwhile, Rangers FC (now in liquidation, remember) was owned by Rangers Football Club plc.
4. Rangers FC (still in admin/liquidation) transferred its assets to Sevco Ltd.
… no, I can’t make that make sense. Who are Rangers FC again?
“The Northern Irishman told BBC Scotland that he presented video evidence to back up his case against a charge of “dissent, adopting an aggressive attitude and by the use of offensive, insulting or abusive language”.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why is the fact he is Northern Irish even in the report? He could have been described as the hot headed manager of a diddy club instead.
easyJambo @ 18:06
Probably promote him
Like father, like son
easyJambo says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 18:06
0 0
Rate This
It is interesting to see Kenny Shiels openly accuse Andrew Dallas of fabricating evidence against him at the recent disciplinary meeting.
I wonder what the SFA will do now re Dallas junior given that Shiels was cleared of the issue subject to the fabricated evidence.
Should get more info in Sportsound coming up shortly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This behaviour is outrageous. A couple of years since Dougiegate when fabricated stories were given to an SFA supervisor and the Celtic manager. Now we apparently have another official doing the same with the Killie manager. How can any fan of any club have confidence that these are two isolated incidents ? Career progression seems to be more of a driver for some of our officials than is necessarily good for our game.
There is clearly a pressure now on the SFA to take some sort of action and make a statement. Athough we’ve said this many times before with the SFA on other issues
I wonder who mentors young Andrew ?
bogsdollox says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 17:46
—————————————————
Ask yourself this question…
Why have the ECA decided to release a statement now, why to STV…
Wouldn’t be anything to do with a floatation would it?
OT
Anyone who can receive the Newstalk 106 channel on Irish Radio should tune in tomorrow, 7am/8am, to hear ‘The Hills Are Green’ an inspiring story about Hugh Green. It will be of particular interest to people with any Donegal connections.
Produced and presented by Mary Harte..
I think it is more than telling that not one of the grandees or legends have endorsed the share issue. Speaks for itself really.
It says a lot about these stalwarts! em, they haven’t the guts to warn their adoring fans – what a bunch of cowardly lick…….es
paulmac2 says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 18:39
bogsdollox says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 17:46
—————————————————
Ask yourself this question…
Why have the ECA decided to release a statement now, why to STV…
Wouldn’t be anything to do with a floatation would it?
======================================================================
That’s two questions BTW.
Was it only released to STV or just picked up and broadcast by them because a large part of their viewers support Rangers (in whatever company they are now in) and they are communicating with the audience?
Rangers have played a blinder on the floatation as regards media coverage but it’s one of the two big shows in town. Celtic got their coverage after Euro Champ success.
Many on here wish for the extinction of Rangers because of what they represent (I do too) but that won’t happen. They will continue and their AIM fundraiser will solve their immediate problems.
What is important however is to expose their cheating (FTT- a complicated tax avoidance scheme is cheating because morally it defrauds every taxpayer and grants the cheats a sporting advantage- even if the law(for now) says it is legal they gained an advantage)
Nimmo – Smiffy – There can be no other conclusion than that which says the rules were broken. Given what came out of the FTT evidence.
Five way agreement – build the club with rushed listing to make you look big- who will challenge you? With all that money behind you?
OT
Anyone who can receive the Newstalk 106 channel on Irish Radio should tune in tomorrow, 7am/8am, to hear ‘The Hills Are Green’ an inspiring story about Hugh Green. It will be of particular interest to people with any Donegal connections.
Produced and presented by Mary Harte.
________________________________
Hey come on, at least listen before judgement, there is a football element to it.
redetin says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 14:50
I agree re telling the SFA what is required of them to restore confidence in the integrity of Scottish football but the problem is who has the authority to speak on behalf .of Scottish football supporters and convey to them our concerns?
When a similar situation arose on 2010 the Celtic supporter organisations gathered and discussed and approved the resolution below for Celtic to present to the SFA.
In the absence of an equivalent gathering of supporters of all clubs perhaps supporters groups of each club could meet and present a similar type of resolution to their club chairmen to present to the SFA?
The wording would be different of course but the sentiment about sporting integrity/merit being paramount and transparency and accountability being a requirement would be the same across the club base.
Perhaps some TSFM wordsmiths could come up with a draft that could be circulated to all supporters trusts/associations to send to their respective clubs in order to get our message across to the SFA that as things stand we simply do not trust them to govern OUR game with integrity and we want to see some integrity restoring measures introduced?
Proposal re loss of confidence in the SFA by Celtic supporters from 2010.
1. As a result of evidence accumulated during this football season 2009/10, the Celtic support in all forms, who are major contributors to the financial well being* of the game in Scotland, have lost all confidence in the ability of the Scottish Football Association (SFA) to administer professional football in Scotland in manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.
2. The lost confidence will only be restored by the implementation of policies and procedures covering four major areas of concern viz:
(i) Transparency in Appointments Procedures
(ii) Transparency in Disciplinary Procedures
(iii) Accountability of all Office Holders
(iv) An Annual and Independent Audit of SFA Policies,
Appointments and Disciplinary Procedures.
3. The Celtic support asks Celtic to convey our concerns and their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:
• Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
• and Europe (UEFA)
• Civil authority (on the issue of proper governance.)
4. We note the Review of Scottish Football being conducted by Henry McLeish and ask if his terms of reference agreed with the SFA cover the issues described above and if not, why not and will they be added?
* Note: As a club, we are 1 member of the SFA (i.e. 2.5% share of voice), however as supporters with average gates of 55,000+ then we represent approx 33% of the 170,000 CUSTOMERS who pay to watch Scottish Football.
Having 2.5% customer dissatisfaction is a problem,33% is a disaster waiting to happen.
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 19:25
I was always puzzled why one of the Big Two got all stroppy about this. Given that between them they had for over 20 years carved up the Revenues, Sponsorship and Youth systems.
I suppose that once these have been sown up it’s time to orientate the game toward your team by focussing on bullying the officials.
paulmac2 says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 18:39
More obsfuscation.
If the ECA are in charge of the game why are Rangers not playing in Europe?
Answer is because under UEFA, the football governing authority, NOT the ECA who are an amalagamation of clubs promoting self interest, Rangers ceased to exist and the club taking their place for UEFA purposes could not meet the entry requirement (3 years accounts) of any club whose history was unbroken. Scottish footballand media can twist it any way they like UEFA think its a new club.
Smoke and mirrors.
bogsdollox says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 19:32
It was not just Celtic who were on the wrong end of unexplainable decisions. Dundee Utd suffered two incrediblr decisions in the McCurry game and had two or three men ordered of in a title run in game at home v Rangers.
Hamilton in the cup, whilst in the lead had a penalty awarded against them when a guy on the deck had the ball played against his arm when he could not possibly have moved it.
Dougie McDonald lied to Neil Lennon and Dallas misrepresented the circumstances to the Scottish public the Monday after.
You call it bullying, I call it making refs and SFA more accountable to everyone and what is wrong with that?
the fact that dallas actually became the ref boss after andy davis had his big moment says it all.
that should have finished them both.
easyJambo says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 18:10
Like father like son? Original was posted on E Tims but archived.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j0r5NqHpPnLtgO78y-d7OvJfiJ-L3kMoDWbUTNKhDJM/edit
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 19:52
bogsdollox says:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think the idea of a concerted effort to make our clubs our emissaries to the SFA is an excellent one. The fact that Celtic fans have previously used the idea should not be used as another stick to beat Celtic, but instead should be seen as our yardstick. It would only take two or three of our ‘top’ teams to be persuaded to present similar requests and the others would very quickly remember all of their own fans who had made the same such statements to them. This is actually an idea that could be made to work. I like it
Auldheid (@Auldheid) @ 19:52
Whilst many teams suffered from strange decisions against them when playing RFC (IL). they also suffered from strange decisions when playing against Celtic
What can’t be disputed though, is the number of those decisions given against them when playing RFC (IL), and in may cases the absolute “bizarreness” of those decisions
Campsijoe
Any major decisions going for the Hoops against the rest of the league over the last few years?
Any players getting off with bad tackles?
I may be truely blinkered but cannot detect a regular pattern where we are getting rhe rub of the green so to speak!
Happy to be re- educated
campsiejoe says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:12
Auldheid (@Auldheid) @ 19:52
Whilst many teams suffered from strange decisions against them when playing RFC (IL). they also suffered from strange decisions when playing against Celtic
——
Have to agree with this. There are reasons that the OF (as was) were lumped in together by everyone else’s fans, and it’s not just because they won everything. There was a definite perception that the OF got the decisions, got soft penalties while your team didn’t, and were generally viewed favourably by officials.
It has to be said that this seems to have changed somewhat this year in the SPL. So far, anyway.
scottc says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:06
I only offer what worked in a particular set of circumstances before to overcome the very hurdles currently being discussed.
If folk wish to discard them because they come from a Celtic perspective that is their perogative. As a pragmatist I am only interested in what works and what does not.
Within a week of an amended version of that resolution being presented to the SFA, Gordon Smith resigned and Review Panel changes were conceded by the SFA.
The resolution points were further reinforced in a meeting the Celtic groups had with Henry McLeish and eventually became a reality when Stewart Regan (credit where it is due) persuaded all clubs to vote for Disciplinary process changes at the SFA AGM.
All that is required is a resolution re what steps we would like the SFA to take to restore trust in the integrity of Scottish football and for that to go to all supporter trusts/associations to put to their clubs to be presented to the SFA.
TSFM could do worse than open a new topic on a draft resolution.
ekbhoy @ 20:24
To be honest with you, I can’t sit here right now and give you chapter and verse on decisions that have gone our way, but we both know they have happened
My point was, that although we have had some favourable decisions, RFC (IL) have had an awful lot more
ekbhoy says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:24
Any major decisions going for the Hoops against the rest of the league over the last few years?
——
Aye.
“There was just a slight doubt about the legitimacy of the winning goal in the Scottish Cup final between Celtic and Aberdeen. The latter had staged a last rally against a better team and had failed, when the ball went loose and far upfield. The veteran Celtic leader, McGrory. and the young Aberdeen full back, Temple, both made for the bouncing ball and had the back kicked out lustily the score might have been averted. Instead he waited, and in a slack tackle, the ball was carried clear by the centre, who appeared to have played it with his arm. This was possibly inadvertent, but while the Aberdeen players threw up their arms in protest the game was won and lost. The ball was sent forward, and Buchan outstripped the defence to turn the ball past the onrushing goalkeeper. Even so. the ball struck the near post and rolled along and across the goal line to lodge just inside the far post. ”
(The Scotsman, 26 April 1937)
Swindle!
🙂
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:27
scottc says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:06
I only offer what worked in a particular set of circumstances before to overcome the very hurdles currently being discussed.
____________________________________________________
I think this is a good start to what could build a fans or supporters campaign to restore a sense of fairness to the game. It is pointless to go over old decisions, we’ll all seen the unexplainable. I’m willing to get into letter writing mode but I think a co-ordinated effort through club structures would be most likely to succeed in driving an improved governance structure for Scottish football.
http://www.gersnet.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/106-a-sceptical-review-of-the-prospectus
In particular…
Green despite his oft repeated claim to be paid only with shares after a successful flotation has in fact been paid since 12 June, a basic salary of £360k plus benefits plus expenses (plus £1600 per month for accommodation with all utilities and Council Tax thrown in) a bonus of 100% gross salary for getting out of the SFL even via a league reconstruction!,
Brian Stockbridge on a basic £200k plus benefits plus expenses, (he too gets a 100% bonus in the event we play in a different league) and a nice £500k worth of share options.
Malcolm Murray on £50k per annum from 14 June but rising to £60k plus all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses reasonably and properly incurred fron the IPO.
The non-executives Hart, Cartmell, and Smart are on £40k, Smith on £50k plus all receive all reasonable out-of-pocket expenses reasonably and properly incurred.
Item C.5 on page 8 consigns another of Greens favourite claims, “no one will be able to own more than 10%”, firmly into the pile marked bullshampoo because the “Ordinary Shares are feely transferable and there are no restrictions on transfer”. Anyone can buy them in whatever amount they want.
Not bad for a 3rd division team, I am sure some senior players on lesser salaries will not be to best pleased with this.
Angus1983
nice one, sounds like the ref was on the blindside!
Campsiejoe
There was a potentially debatable offside goal by Scott MacDonald against old Rgers about 3 years ago, stokesy tumble in the box at Ibrox , struggling after that to think of a regular pattern of decisions going our way.
Seems to me the mythology of the big club bias does not apply.
ekbhoy @ 20:51
Point I was making, is that there have been decisions that have gone our way in recent years, and we can’t deny that
However there have been an awful lot more match winning decisions that have gone in favour of RFC (IL)
Folks
You can discuss ref decisions until the cows come home and divert from the point of how to make our voices heard OR you can look at the suggestion for reaching the SFA .
The problem with this bias argument is that 90% of the truth is in perception, and consequently we end up with either handbags or heavy sarcasm, because people can’t understand why anyone can disagree with their point of view. Either outcome takes us down a road which gives the mods more unnecessary work to do.
I don’t mind the argument of itself, but if it devolves into a table tennis game, then it kinds proves the point that it is not a sensible discussion to be having here. I think we have had enough outrage over the last year and a half to know the difference between the real and imagined varieties.
So please take these discussions private and leave some room for discussion of relevant topics.
Discussion on refereeing decisions, contemporary or historical = off topic.
Thanks for listening.
BTW I have been getting some seriously rabid emails accusing the mods of pro-Celtic bias because of the refereeing discussion.
That is simply not the case. Only one of the mods is a Celtic fan (for a start) and in any event, there is no ban on the discussion of the distribution of wealth in the Scottish game, which usually sees Celtic in the dock on this blog.
Because that speaks to the interdependent nature of team sport, that is a relevant topic of discussion for this blog, and we encourage it – with the proviso that the debate is conducted respectfully.
Unfortunately for those who don’t do respect, the mods decide what is and what isn’t 🙂
TSFM says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 21:44
———————————————–
Does this include Andrew Dallas,who has been proven to be a lying and corrupt official.
Andrew Dallas should be sacked now.
liveinhop says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:44
http://www.gersnet.co.uk/index.php/latest-news/106-a-sceptical-review-of-the-prospectus
In particular…
===================================================================
Enjoyed the read…especially the bit about Mandy Rice Davies…well….”he would say that, wouldn’t he…?”
…go on and show your ages by remembering those immortal lines from 1963…, when more than just the media were titillating!
TSFM says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 21:52
BTW I have been getting some seriously rabid emails accusing the mods of pro-Celtic bias because of the refereeing discussion.
aww, did andy go and get his dad ??
….or was it 1961?
Here’s a thought: why don’t we just concede the ‘same club’ thing graciously, knowing that the dual contract tsunami detailed on pages 38 and 39 of the FTT report they were doing cartwheels over, will sink Oldco and anybody purporting to be Oldco?
Just read the linked article below about a sports journalist who won an award;
“…for his 13-year campaign to expose cyclist Lance Armstrong as a drugs cheat…
David Walsh was given a rapturous reception at the first British Journalism Awards on Tuesday night as he picked up the prizes for Sports Journalist of the Year and Journalist of the Year…
The judges said: “His 13-year investigation was dogged, determined and brave. He could have lost everything but persisted against the odds…”
===================================
…and then I remembered about our very own Jingle Jangle Jackson – the current “Scottish Press Awards Sports News Journalist of the Year”.
🙁
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/david-walsh-%E2%80%98humbled%E2%80%99-recognition-13-year-investigation-lance-armstrong
TSFM
Seems fair enough to me, ref stds and approach to the game are OK for debate. Seems to me that blanket assertions that the Hoops are in receipt of favourable decisions needs to either be removed or challenged.
Happy to let any further unfounded assertions wash over.
scottc says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 20:06
bogsdollox says:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think the idea of a concerted effort to make our clubs our emissaries to the SFA is an excellent one. The fact that Celtic fans have previously used the idea should not be used as another stick to beat Celtic, but instead should be seen as our yardstick. It would only take two or three of our ‘top’ teams to be persuaded to present similar requests and the others would very quickly remember all of their own fans who had made the same such statements to them. This is actually an idea that could be made to work. I like it
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed.
Regarding the arrest of Mr Limond, I watched the C4 report at the time. The extract I recall being played from his ‘radio show’ was specifically threatening the female editor of Phil Mac’s ‘Downfall’ book.
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 21:37
Folks
You can discuss ref decisions until the cows come home and divert from the point of how to make our voices heard OR you can look at the suggestion for reaching the SFA .
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let the New Rangers go about their business.
When they are in Div 3 is the time to reorganise Scotch Fitba. It can only be done whilst they and Campbell is in a position of weakness.
Are there any leaders?
Celtic – youse are the ones. Seize it.
Auldheid.
You don’t need a wordsmith, you are more than capable of composing a guest blog, you are active and knowledgeable about the workings of the trusts and could quickly organise and advise us in the best way to move this excellent idea forward.
Thanks.
Auldheid
I echo Rab’s sentiment, start the ball rolling. You have a captive and motivated audience here on TSFM.
Agrajag.
You’ve been strangely quiet of late. Over the last 20 months or so, 😉 Ive respected your views with regards to HMRC and the nuances within the procedures and mindsets in the various departments.
Could you advise?
Will HMRC be happy with the decision at the FTT.
Could they/ would they structure a FTT defence that would be unproven in the hope to set a precedent in the UTT.
Given the concession by HMRC defence on the loans, how likely are HMRC to see a return from individuals tax liability.
Whats the procedure for HMRC for requesting an appeal. Who decides. Whats the likeliehood of this one being denied and on what basis.
If HMRC win at the UTT tribunal, ( or lose ) what would be the next step for either party and who pays.
Please reply or i will start a gatesharing debate and draw you out. 😀
redetin says:
Friday, December 14, 2012 at 14:50
I make you right that MSM has been an abject failure in its reporting of this saga and yes the Bambots of the internet are the future of reporting but somehow Football authorities need to be more responsive to the fans. As in oldco I was reading about Portsmouth ,now if the FA had done some investigation into the owners they would have seen that they were a bunch of crooks.
I have been amazed at the amount of information that has been put foreward here and on RTC,I only wish that the same disection could take place on the EPL the game would be better for it.
Whats the chance of somebody getting a SFM interview on Off The Ball perhaps that would lift the profile higher and perhaps get more on board in getting the SFA SPL SFL to be more responsive to the fans Anyway keep telling it as it is and not what they want it to be
As I see it, the problem you have with trying to represent the views of a wide range of fans to the football authorities is being able to demonstrate that your group has the backing of a significant enough number of fans to make the SFA sit up and take notice of your concerns. In the eyes of the authorities we are no more than an incoherent band of ‘internet bambots’. The only way to prove otherwise is to convince them that these concerns are ‘popular’ and that they have the potential to impact significantly on the finances and/or the credibility of those in charge of the game.
I note that Auldheid’s suggestion (which I am entirely in favour of and for which I offer my support) included specific detail about the percentages of ‘customers’ that the grouping of Celtic supporters organisations represented. At present, we do not have that kind of information at hand and I don’t suppose that having a large number of thumbs up to your irregular postings would cut the mustard, so to speak.
The normal way to gather this type of information is by undertaking an independent survey and then using the information generated from this to illustrate the validity of your concerns. TSFM will, no doubt, have detail on the number of unique visitors to this site which would give you a idea of the total amount of people that you can begin to extrapolate the necessary statistics from.
Perhaps, as has already been suggested, TSFM could set up an online survey to gather this information. Whether or not this would be seen as ‘biased’ by the authorities or the mainstream media is a matter for debate. However, there are also a number of independent online survey facilities which could also serve this purpose. Surveymonkey is the world’s most popular online survey tool which allows you to create and publish online surveys and to view results graphically using professional templates. This site allows you to create a free questionnaire accessible to anyone with an internet connection. You can ask up to 10 questions without incurring additional charges.
I have undertaken a number of surveys using this facility and find it to be easy to use and effective in demonstrating popular support for a project. I am not sure whether it can be abused (most of the things I have been involved in have not been as contentious as Scottish football governance), however it is certainly worth consideration as a means of corroborating a common complaint.
In my humble opinion, all questions asked should be generic enough to ensure that Rangers supporters don’t feel excluded from the survey. To be fair, they have been the ones most affected by the goings on over the last year and have at least as many grievances as fans of other clubs. If there is popular support for this process it is something that can be done relatively quickly.
As my starter for ten, I suggest the following questions for any survey:
Which Scottish football team do you consider yourself a supporter of?
Do you have confidence in the SFA’s administration of Scottish Football?
Do you agree that the SFA should be more transparent in their appointments procedures?
Do you agree that the SFA should be more transparent in their disciplinary procedures?
Do you agree that the SFA should be more accountable to the fans?
Do you agree that the fans should have more input to the governance of Scottish football?
Do you agree that there should be a review into the SFA’s handling of the Rangers FC administration crisis?
Are you happy with the fans representation to the SFA being made through Supporters Direct?
Are you happy for TSFM (or some such) to represent your views to the relevant football and civil authorities?
Do you have anything you wish to add to this survey?
What say ye?
Humble Pie,
The questions suggested by you above would cut no mustard with any of the footballing authorities in this country, and to be fair neither should they…
Any question beginning “Do you agree” or “Are you happy” would almost certainly not make it past any independent scrutiny of proposed questions. They invite a certain response! That is why the SNP were so keen to have a “Do you agree” question in the forthcoming referendum.
The referee issue to me is about far more than ropey on field decisions. Dallasgate,Dougiegate andd Babydallasgate all inndicate a wider rottenness of arrogance, dishonesty and a complete refusal to be held up to any independent scrutiny. Like the rest f the governing bodies the governance of referees is closed unaccountable and seemingly corrupt.
abigboydiditandranaway says:
Saturday, December 15, 2012 at 08:44
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Humble Pie,
The questions suggested by you above would cut no mustard with any of the footballing authorities in this country, and to be fair neither should they…
A more brutal approach..
I have no confidence in the SFA’s administration of Scottish Football
I believe that the SFA should be more transparent in their appointments procedures
I believe that the SFA should be more transparent in their disciplinary procedures
I believe that the SFA should be more accountable to the fans
I believe that the fans should have more input to the governance of Scottish football
I believe that there should be a review into the SFA’s handling of the Rangers FC administration crisis
I Am happy for TSFM (or some such) to represent my views to the relevant football and civil authorities?
Comments:
Signed:
I have been seeing more and more reports of our friends over at ibrokes, apparently lining up players on pre conrtact. There’s nothing particularly wrong with that, as long as there are no illegal aproaches being made, as if they would. However every time I read about one of these targets irt is suggested that it will be alright to register them on September 2nd as the transfer window will be extended until then because the end of August is a Saturday. I don’t know if this is the official line, but if so it significally reduces the effect of the embargo that was imposed. Is this factual, or just wishfull thinking on their part.? I had thought that it was to be january 2014 before the embargo was lifted. Does anyone know the official answer?