The Real Battle Begins?

The increasing attacks on social media by the main stream press, fuelled in some respect by David Murray’s vague threats of litigation against bloggers, has brought into sharp focus the challenges facing the Blogosphere. It also brings into even sharper focus the prescience of Stuart Cosgrove’s assertion that this summer’s ‘epistemological break’  had begun to marginalize the Scottish sporting wing of the MSM.

The reality of that assertion is embedded in the misreporting of the FTT decision as a victory for RFC, falsely alleging that those who operated the EBT scheme had been exonerated, that RFC had ‘done nothing wrong’, and consequently accusing ‘vindictive anti-Rangers bloggers’ of playing a part in the downfall of that once great Scottish institution. It is also evident in Tom English’s rather bitter and one-dimensional anti-RTC polemic today in the Scotland on Sunday. Had it been entitled “Self Preservation”, it may have rung a few more truth bells.

I am not of the belief that the MSM is an instinctively pro-Rangers estate, but I do think that their reportage of the FTT is more geared towards discrediting the newly emergent forces in the social media area than it is towards rehabilitating the public image of RFC or David Murray.

However despite the contempt in which many people here hold the MSM and Murray, English does have a point that we would be foolish to ignore. No-one can deny that we do have a duty to ensure that we are responsible in how we present ourselves to the public. Now that our (and others’) success as a real and creative alternative has spurred the MSM into action, we are subject to greater scrutiny than at any time in the past. Our view is that we have to be pro-actively engaged in setting a standard for ourselves that is above those that the MSM have set for themselves.

We have on TSFM an audience exponentially greater than the number of posts. That presents us with a great opportunity to get our message across, but it also burdens us with an increased responsibility not to fall into the trap which has besought the Succulent Lamb Brigade.

We are a very different animal from RTC. RTC him or herself had information and insight to bring to the table that the administrators of this site do not. The founder and former admin of TSFM had the idea that the talent available from posters on the RTC – not just RTC himself – should continue to have a forum in a post-RTC world, and that those talents could be used to challenge the myths regularly represented as facts by lazy journalists in the MSM.

We have at our disposal on this blog forensic analysis of legal, media and corporate matters. We have an abundance of creative minds, all passionate about the game of football AS WELL AS a partisan love for their chosen club. With all that talent and expertise, we can make an impact on the agenda by challenging the misinformation and substandard journalism of the MSM, and our finest moments are when we do that. We lose authority and influence when the debate is impeded by bald accusation or innuendo backed up with little more than an historical view of our country.

Our biggest impact (and largest audience) is to be found when when our experts have collectively torn apart those myths presented as truths by the MSM, and when we have asked the questions that the MSM either can’t or won’t ask or answer. Those are the things that have driven the traffic to this site, and many of the emails we get congratulate us on that.

Our credibility plummets though when we go down the partisan path. We also get literally hundreds of emails from fans who ask that we cut down on the comments of those who are merely venting outrage at how they see the game being mismanaged (mainly so they can access the important stuff more quickly), and from fans who are just fed up with the constant name-calling – almost exclusively aimed at Ally McCoist and other Rangers figures.

If we claim to be an intellectual and journalistic rung or two above the likes of the Red Tops (not to mention to be decent and respectful of others), we need to refrain from the name calling and accusatory culture. We can ask questions, put items for debate on the public agenda, point out apparent irregularities and anomalies. In rushing to judgement of others from the comfort of the glow of our own laptop screens, we are guilty of the same lazy journalism we see in others. Name calling (all good fun of course on a fan site) is just a lazy thought process and as English says, comes across as “nasty”.

We never saw RTC as a fan-site. The original administrator of this blog never saw TSFM as one either, and nor do we. In order to succeed properly, we need sensible fans of ALL clubs to be comfortable and feel secure in our midst. Of course we are not breaking any laws, but can anyone honestly say that we have evolved into a welcoming place for Rangers fans?

TSFM is not about hounding any one club out of existence or into shame or infamy. In the Rangers saga we have sought to ensure that the football authorities play fair with everyone and stick to their own rules. One well kent RTC contributor, and no friend of Rangers, often said that if the FTT found in favour of Rangers we should move along and accept it. Well they did find in favour of Rangers in the majority of cases. That may not suit many of us, but we are the Scottish Football Monitor, not a Judicial Watchdog. We can say why we disagree with the decision, but criticism of the process through which the decision was arrived at is beyond our purview.

Since the accusation is often made in the MSM, we should state, unequivocally and unreservedly, that we are NOT anti-Rangers. Their fans face the same issues as the rest of us and they are welcome here. We are however, equally unequivocally against the gravy train journalism of the Scottish Football Wing of the MSM (with one or two honourable exceptions).

If the Anti-Blogateers in the press are correct, the popularity of the TSFM will recede as the Rangers Tax case reverts to the back pages before disappearing for good. However I do not believe that they are correct. I don’t believe that Scottish football fans are only motivated by either hatred – or even dislike – of one club. I believe we are more concerned with the game itself than the pot-stirrers in the MSM would have us believe, because we understand the interdependence of football clubs.

But we also understand that the people who run football clubs do not always run their clubs for the benefit of the fans. In the business world, that may not be out of the ordinary, since businesses are run for the benefit of shareholders.
However football reserves for itself a special place in the hearts of people in this country. If the people who run football clubs want to retain that favourable status, they have to be accountable to the fans.

The difficulty in holding them to account though, is that the cosy relationship cultivated between club directors, managers and players and the press renders the access to information a closed shop, and the information itself is heavily filtered and spun.

As long as we keep asking questions in response to the fruit of that cosy relationship, we will be providing people with an alternative angle and viewpoint, allowing them to come to their own conclusions, and not the one the MSM post-presser huddle delivers to us wrapped up in a bow.

For the SFM specifically, we believe that to have any influence, we need to enable the expertise at our disposal to flourish. It is also vital to our project that Rangers fans are included in our dialogue. We just can’t call ourselves the Scottish Football Monitor if they are largely excluded from participation because they feel they are being treated disrespectfully.

We can’t tolerate the accusations and name calling. We need to stick to what we have done best; factual analysis, conjecture based on known facts and on-line discourse leading to searching questions being asked.

One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities. Being truly representative of fans will make that easier to achieve.

The MSM will continue to attack the social media outlets. In one way you can understand it. Their jobs are at stake. The business model of the print media in particular has changed massively over the last five years, manifesting itself mainly in increasingly under-resourced newsrooms. Consequently it is besought by increasingly unreliable and under-researched journalism, even to the point where much of it is no longer journalism at all.

By comparison the Blogosphere has access to greater human and time resources, is able to react to unfolding events in real time, and crucially (because it has been eschewed instead of embraced by print media proprietors) has been occupied by ordinary folk with little or no vested interest.

We are still in position to provide a service in our small niche of the on-line world. We have rights to publish and speak freely about our passion, but we also have to live up to the attendant responsibilities, and thus the appeal for discretion on posting comments.

Where Tom English got it completely wrong (in the uniquely ironic way the MSM have about them), is that his industry has mistaken the rights others have earned for them as entitlement, and ignored almost completely the responsibility they had to act on behalf of those who pay their wages.

This entry was posted in General by Trisidium. Bookmark the permalink.
Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,018 thoughts on “The Real Battle Begins?


  1. puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:56
    0 0 Rate This
    TSFM says:

    Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 21:43

    39

    2

    Rate This

    puzzlingresult says:

    Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 21:25(Edit)

    Well, HMRC have been busy since the release of a certain tax case result. A lot of ebt holders have received letters requesting copies of the loan documents, interest calculations and minutes / letters. I wonder why? Squeaky bum time for some footballers and administrators?
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Do you have a source for that?

    Sorry for the delay in replying – one of my clients has received said letter
    —————

    Cheers puzzling. What’s the reason for you wondering why? Did you assume that the authorities had this information already?


  2. puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:56

    Sorry for the delay in replying – one of my clients has received said letter
    ————————————————————————————–

    Okay, so your client has received one. What is your evidence that ‘a lot’ of others have too?


  3. doontheslope says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 06:45
    ‘..I hope that answers your question.’

    —-
    It does, indeed, and superbly to boot. thank you.


  4. Tommy says:

    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:06

    0

    0

    Rate This

    puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:56

    Sorry for the delay in replying – one of my clients has received said letter
    ————————————————————————————–

    Okay, so your client has received one. What is your evidence that ‘a lot’ of others have too?

    Fair comment Tommy, the network that I am a member of has indicated that HMRC are issuing these letters en block and to advise all clients what to expect.


  5. youtawknaboot says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:02
    5 0 Rate This
    mmm I wonder ….will the succulent slugs refer to ibrox as always,
    or will they adopt its new name (if the fabled sd stadium re
    naming myth actually happens.).
    …as in rangers-the rangers..whats the difference ?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    About 140 years.


  6. TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 16:24

    —-
    I think the Cenkos in question may be the one that these guys relate to.

    Graham Herring [mailto:G.Herring@newgatethreadneedle.com]

    “Stephen Keys” wrote:

    I had emailed Cenkos for confirmation of the assertion that they were to act for CG’s in the matter of the IPO.

    These were names on the reply email.


  7. Could the reason for multiple “plc’s” registered/incorporated be
    a) to spread the “new” (ticketus) & operating debt across several companies.

    Or

    b) to move all debt to another company to make The Rangers Football Club Plc balance sheet more attractive to investors?

    Yours Sincerely

    Plebs


  8. puzzlingresult
    Why was this not done before the FTT ended and used as evidence ,could it not be done during the appeal ?


  9. puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:17
    2 0 Rate This

    Fair comment Tommy, the network that I am a member of has indicated that HMRC are issuing these letters en block and to advise all clients what to expect.

    ———————————————————-

    and what can they expect???

    will your clients be telling HMRC to GTF and that the money was contractual wages from RFC and they were liable for PAYE and NI?

    Or will the clients be paying some tax on the benefit in kind received?

    Or will the clients simply provide the copy of the loan agreement that details interest charged, repayment date etc?


  10. puzzlingresult says:

    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:17

    puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:56

    Sorry for the delay in replying – one of my clients has received said letter
    ————————————————————————————–

    Okay, so your client has received one. What is your evidence that ‘a lot’ of others have too?

    ______________________________________________________

    For those of yous who have an EBT and who have not received such a letter, HMRC has provided ample advice on how you should proceed. There is a very fair Settlement Opportunity on offer.

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/specialist/ebt-faqs.pdf

    …or are you feeling lucky?


  11. So let me get this right….. Now it’s CW and not Ragers that never paid the PAYE/NIC .
    If ever we needed reminding of why it’s essential to have blogs like this


  12. Tommy says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:06
    5 0 Rate This
    puzzlingresult says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:56

    Sorry for the delay in replying – one of my clients has received said letter
    ————————————————————————————–

    Okay, so your client has received one. What is your evidence that ‘a lot’ of others have too?

    —————–

    Sorry for the suspicion but if puzzlingresult has a client that was one of the EBT beneficiaries would he becoming on here and telling us?

    However I hope he is correct and action is under way


  13. Various :

    Chaps, if it helps, HMRC announced last week it was taking pre emptive action on 1500 recipients of EBT’s. Reading various reports, the focus appears to be on EBT’s administered via Jersey trusts.

    It is unknown if the 1500 tell a joke or kick a ball. Possibly both.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20466304


  14. redetin says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:44
    —-
    Great link.


  15. doontheslope says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:34
    6 2 Rate This
    yakutsuki

    I dont think TD’s will be through lack of empathy. Maybe we are veering off topic. Anyway, good luck to you. (Forgiveness is a tough, but very effective, medicine, btw.)
    ————

    The thumbs TDs may just be accidents if people are using phones. I’ve read more than once an apology from someone who TD’ed in error (iPads are easier).

    There are three or four issues being discussed simultaneously right now so I’m not sure what’s on topic doon. I thought your and yaku’s posts were relevant to SC’s mention of real names contra aliases. Certainly not a subject to be swept under the carpet. I reckon a lot of people were lost to football because of the mindless thuggery associated with it, in Glasgow at least.


  16. puzzlingresult

    I am guessing that your position/job would have made you well aware of EBTs ?
    If you were, (hypothetical question), what were your initial thoughts on the schemes ?


  17. One of the most disgusting aspects of what happened over the last year or so was Mr McCoist’s “name names” campaign run by Rangers TV.

    It was a clear a call to intimidation and threats as one could see.

    To recently read some of the comments of people who have been at the wrong end of the violence in real life brings that home.

    We are not talking about internet threats, and keyboard hard men Alistair. We are talking about real life intimidation, threats and actual violence. We are talking about ruining people’s lives, physically, mentally and emotionally.

    It was a disgraceful way to behave and I truly hope you are ashamed of having done it. Any decent human being would be. Well they wouldn’t have done it in the first place, but if they had they really would be sorry.

    Any chance of an explanation and an apology.


  18. Good Evening,

    reading back, I see that there are a number of posts about why posters end up using a web moniker, a pen name, a nickname or even their own name.

    Although it is not related to football, I did a wee bit of writing about how I accidently by design morphed into BRT & H.

    It can be found here:

    http://t.co/CVtLDoLW

    As I say it is not football related, but is sport related and does contain a reference to comments by the late Jock Stein while pointing out that the subject matter of the tale is– in my opinion– the author of the single most impressive sports quote I have ever heard.

    On other matters, it should be remembered that there are eminent financial journalists who, as late as 2010, wondered just what would happen to the debt of £70M due by Rangers PLC to MIH– this sum being separate to any debt that Rangers PLC owed to Lloyds.

    It would appear– though it has not to my knowledge been confirmed— that when Lloyds took control of the running of MIH it was decided to write this debt off as simply irrecoverable.


  19. bogsdollox says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 17:26

    Murdo’s a dumpling is that what we’re saying 🙂


  20. TheBlackKnight TBK says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:00
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,
    The Rangers Football Club Ltd was previously Sevco Scotland the holding company that purchased Rangers 1872,s history and assets. This company is held by Sevco 5088 registered
    in England.
    ……
    TBK
    Have you found evidence that Sevco 5088 owns Sevco Scotland?


  21. Danish

    I did realise that yaku and my posts were responding to Stuart’s point about anonymity. I was just worried that we might be accused of Rangers bashing. Which would have been ironic.

    I also think that the anonymity of bloggers and others, has been crucial in allowing the truth to come out and hopefully prevail.


  22. doontheslope says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 18:34
    6 1 Rate This
    yakutsuki
    I dont think TD’s will be through lack of empathy. Maybe we are
    veering off topic. Anyway, good luck to you. (Forgiveness is a
    tough, but very effective, medicine, btw.)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Very interesting reading these types of experiences. Thank you for sharing. As I think I mentioned before, I moved back to Scotland at the age of 14. Maybe I was naive, but I didn’t have any sort of reference to prepare me for the bogitry that engulfs sections of Scotland. I wasn’t really even aware of ‘caflicks’ and ‘proddies’.
    That said, people seem to find (even invent) reasons to hate. This is not exclusive to Scotland. Whether it be race, religion, politics, social or financial standing or whatever, people will find a way to hate. I’m even willing to bet that there has been a fight (or fights) about whether you should have salt ‘n’ sauce or salt ‘n’ vinegar on your fish supper *.
    I once had a half brick bounce off my shoulder because someone thought I came from a neighbouring town. He was very apologetic when I turned around and he realised he’d erred. “Sorry mate. I thought you were a (derogatory term for inhabitants of the other, very similar but obviously significantly different, town)”. What would that apology mean if it had been my head, rather than my shoulder, that said projectile had bounced off?
    I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s not the fault of these people. It’s the fault of a society that allows people to fuel and feed off the hate of each other, whether real or imagined. I don’t know what the answer is. You just need to look at what’s happening around the world. Christians hate Muslims hate Jews hate Muslims hate Christians. Christians hate Christians. Muslims hate Muslims. Jews hate Jews. Whites hate blacks. Blacks hate whites. Right hates left. Left hates right. Mods hate rockers. Rockers hate mods. Do I need to go on?

    We have to find a way to stop the hate. To do that, we each need to admit our own failings and see the merit in the other position.

    Yeah. That’s a problem right there. Apparently.

    * For me? Salt ‘n’ vinegar on a fish supper, but salt ‘n’ sauce on just about every other deep fried delicacy.


  23. john clarke says:
    I think the Cenkos in question may be the one that these guys relate to.

    Graham Herring [mailto:G.Herring@newgatethreadneedle.com]
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    & I’m thinkin that just maybe puzzlingresult is the above mentioned Grahams wee brother…Red ?


  24. Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:

    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 20:28


    On other matters, it should be remembered that there are eminent financial journalists who, as late as 2010, wondered just what would happen to the debt of £70M due by Rangers PLC to MIH– this sum being separate to any debt that Rangers PLC owed to Lloyds.

    It would appear– though it has not to my knowledge been confirmed— that when Lloyds took control of the running of MIH it was decided to write this debt off as simply irrecoverable.

    =========================================================================

    Back in the early days of RTC I queried whether SDM’s share issue that resulted in another 50M of his “own money” being used to reduce RFC’s debts from 72M to 20M would ever be reviewed by anyone.

    Adam put me down in typical style and insisted that there was no chance of a review.

    Now I wonder if BDO will report on this share issue as part of their investigations.


  25. Robert Wilson says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:51

    So we need some form verification that the letters that puzzlingresult alerted us to are directed to former players of RFC or employees of MIH?


  26. Here is a report on EBT letters in general.

    http://www.uhy-uk.com/resources/news/hmrc-begins-clampdown-on-taxpayers-using-employee-benefit-trusts/

    “HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is writing to taxpayers who have saved tax by using Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) asking them to pay tax which it claims they owe or face possible litigation, according to our research.

    Our research shows that thousands of taxpayers have made use of EBTs in recent years and are likely to have received letters from HMRC demanding payment.

    In one such letter, HMRC is claiming that the taxpayer owes nearly £160,000 in outstanding tax. The letter says that if the taxpayer agrees to the settlement, HMRC will not seek to apply any penalties. Taxpayers who do not settle are threatened with court action.”


  27. redetin @ 21:39

    Whilst the FTT does not set a precedent, surely it would be quite a potent defence for anyone that HMRC decides to take legal action against, for the use of a similar scheme


  28. BDO are not going to do anything to tackle Murray and his cronies, unless higher Independent authorities such as HMRC order them to and check that it has been done afterwards!
    Think of them as a slightly more intelligent and professional Duff and Dudder.


  29. LTLurker 21.26 :

    My reading is the two matters are not related. I think the timing is coincidental with HMRC issuing an immediate response to the size 10 received from the National Audit Office. The Jersey juxtaposition lingers in many reports. I think this is because of the wide publicity & stark condemnation by the Prime Minister that Jimmy Carr et al received rather than anything to do with MIH.

    Having said that, 1500 EBT’s administered by Jersey Trusts is a fair amount in a narrow area. Having taken this unusual step, no guarantee HMRC will stop there. With the K2 trust already well exposed, I suggest any Tax Practitioner with clients in such a scheme will be busy. On balance of probability, a football player or two may be among them.

    In the words of the great oracle & seer, Sir Alex Ferguson, is it squeaky bum time ? It is for 1500…at least.


  30. Mr Black certainly hopes that BDO won’t be digging too far back.

    Apparently he (whoever he is) helped himself to £6m worth of bonuses from a PLC which was losing money on a regular basis. A PLC which was ultimately liquidated owing tens of millions of pounds to a variety of creditors, including HMRC. That would be the same HMRC who put BDO in place.

    It is perhaps unfortunate that he was doing this totally on his own, deciding on his own bonuses and paying them to himself. Kind of like treating it as if it was his own private business rather than a public limited company.

    I wouldn’t like to be him, or anyone else on the board who was taking bonuses if BDO are going to do a thorough investigation. Seizure of assets and criminal charges are a real possibility. However this has been discussed here before.


  31. campsiejoe says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:11

    redetin @ 21:39

    Whilst the FTT does not set a precedent, surely it would be quite a potent defence for anyone that HMRC decides to take legal action against, for the use of a similar scheme
    ========================================================================

    To some extent this is right. I have seen decisions at this level used as a defence as they at least show which way the wind is blowing. However, that said because of the split decision and the depth of disagreement between FTT members it isn’t much of a defence.

    Roll on the Appeal.


  32. ordinaryfan says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:15

    BDO are not going to do anything to tackle Murray and his cronies, unless higher Independent authorities such as HMRC order them to and check that it has been done afterwards!
    Think of them as a slightly more intelligent and professional Duff and Dudder.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    That’s just silly talk. I worked for BDO in London (not insolvency or forensic accounting) and I know for a FACT they are professional in all aspects of their operation and if I know one thing about Malcolm Cohen his team will get to the truth. It may cost a lot of money of course.


  33. Agrajag says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:55

    Mr Black certainly hopes that BDO won’t be digging too far back.

    Apparently he (whoever he is) helped himself to £6m worth of bonuses from a PLC which was losing money on a regular basis. A PLC which was ultimately liquidated owing tens of millions of pounds to a variety of creditors, including HMRC.
    ===================================================================

    Sorry to be a pain but do you have proof of this? My take is that his bonuses came via MIH contributions.


  34. I’m sure of the the regulars at the time of the FTTT result wondered if Hector lost on purpose. I’m beginning to wonder that myself, was he trying to flush them out so he knows how to play and win the last game


  35. One thing I noticed about Paul Murray’s ‘endorsement’ of BDO digging up who killed Rangers – he fails to mention the man who put the club in massive unsustainable debt, and whose approach put the club under the control of the bank…. step forward Minty!


  36. john clarke says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:35
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 19:39

    Thanks JC. It appears to be the UK operation but they have offices in Edinburgh, Geurnsey
    and Jersey.

    youtawknaboot says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 21:09
    If you have something to say ytk – say it. I’m making genuine bar-to-bar enquiries here. Check my posting history.


  37. briggsbhoy says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 23:28

    I’m sure of the the regulars at the time of the FTTT result wondered if Hector lost on purpose. I’m beginning to wonder that myself, was he trying to flush them out so he knows how to play and win the last game
    ======================================================================

    It doesn’t work like that and you forget Thornhill is the best opinion and advocate money can buy and also that he came “team handed” with various junior council and Trust “experts”


  38. Lord Wobbly says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:41

    Absolutely brilliant M’Lud.

    When I was young, we couldn’t even afford Malteasers. About 28 of us used to play chippy-in with with a rolled up dog jobbie. Try telling that to the young people these days…and they just won’t believe you. 😉


  39. Humble Pie says:

    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:05

    A dog jobbie?

    You’re lucky.

    Me n ma pals had to follae a cat up n doon the Gallagate for a month hoping it would cough up a furball.


  40. Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:12

    When I say a dog jobbie, it wasn’t actually a dog jobbie….yet ! Sometimes it was just a ‘spat-oot’ chewing gum on the kerb, we would go about for weeks collecting them (and practicing our heiders) before literally stuffing the whole lot doon the throat of a scabby dug,


  41. Humble Pie says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:05
    2 0 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:41
    Absolutely brilliant M’Lud.
    When I was young, we couldn’t even afford Malteasers. About 28 of us used to play chippy-in with with a rolled up dog jobbie. Try telling that to the young people these days…and they just won’t believe you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    We could never get one of those dog jobbies to play ball. All white and crumbly as I recall.
    We had to make do with one of those hideous mouldmaster thingys!


  42. Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:28

    We had the same issue, early doors, until one of the brighter sparks in our scheme sussed the old chewing gum trick. I don’t know the chemical mechanism, but it certainly added the necessary elasticity.


  43. Humble Pie says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:32
    0 0 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:28
    We had the same issue, early doors, until one of the brighter
    sparks in our scheme sussed the old chewing gum trick. I don’t
    know the chemical mechanism, but it certainly added the
    necessary elasticity.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Ah hah! That’s where our sparks were going wrong. They were trying to add electricity, not elasticity!


  44. Lord Wobbly says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 20:43
    ==================================

    Good points LW. And the sad thing is many of these folk can be guided away from these mind sets but unfortunately there is advantage for some people in encouraging them instead.


  45. Gentlemen

    That is a dead sketch!

    And now for something completely different.

    There has been a lot of discussion on here and elsewhere about the decent Rangers fans becoming more vocal. People have opined on the ‘bad apples’ amongst the support. Is it a large minority? Numbers on FF and RM get quoted.

    I found this post on Rangers Rumours site:

    “I think, gents, that we all need to take a deep breath and let people get on with this (tax cases and SPL inquests) from outside the club. We as fans now just need to accept that we are in the third division and just have to work our way back up to being champions of Scotland again. In time this will be a reality. Until then, let’s just concentrate on the team and winning our games.”

    But here’s the interesting bit:

    Believable: 90
    Unbelievable: 23.

    An indicator of where Rangers(IL)/Sevco fans are at? If so, a glimmer of hope.


  46. Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:28

    ‘..We had to make do with one of those hideous mouldmaster thingys! ‘

    Shades of RTC, and recollections of pain!

    Curiously, it seems a helluva long time ago since we had the nostalgic posts of those who are far too young to remember being brain damaged by heidering a sodden size five bladder while being blinded in one eye by the feckin lace that had worked loose, and heid-butted by a centre-half who could not distinguish a ball from one’s head.

    Schools football in the early 1950s was really where it was all at,
    Aye, them were the days…..:)


  47. Apologies if posted already, but this dropped into my mail box this morning.

    ” Rangers Case – What Does It Mean for Contractors?

    HMRC have been very vocal on the subject of tax avoidance of late – however their recent attack on Rangers FC’s remuneration trust arrangement was thrown out by the Courts, a decision that has cost them over £45million in potential income tax & National Insurance.

    Breeze Wealth welcomes the decision which adds to the existing case law supporting our Freelance Wealth Strategy, providing contractors with a framework that enables them to receive a minimum of 84.5% of their contract rate after all taxes, fees and National Insurance has been paid.

    Our free report contains a detailed analysis of the Rangers case and how this decision supports contractors looking to keep an extra £3,000 – £25,000 per annum of their contract rate.

    Our Freelance Wealth Strategy also provides contractors with the following benefits:

    Continuous legal & administrative support
    Fully insured at Lloyd’s of London
    Funds stay within UK at all times
    Umbrella option or use your existing Limited company
    Minimal administration – simply submit your timesheets
    Account manager provided by Breeze
    Download our free report today and read how our Freelance Wealth Strategy is supported by the latest decision of the Courts.”

    http://www.breezewealth.com/attach/breeze-rangers-case-analysis.pdf

    ——————————–
    Without having had the chance to read it, I may be way off, but I can’t quite see the connection between freelance contractor income and EBTs?


  48. Lord Wobbly on Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:28
    5 2 Rate This
    Humble Pie says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 00:05
    2 0 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:
    Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 22:41
    Absolutely brilliant M’Lud.
    When I was young, we couldn’t even afford Malteasers. About 28 of us used to play chippy-in with with a rolled up dog jobbie. Try telling that to the young people these days…and they just won’t believe you.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    We could never get one of those dog jobbies to play ball. All white and crumbly as I recall.
    We had to make do with one of those hideous mouldmaster thingys!
    ***************
    …and how do you think they made the mouldmaster?


  49. Doontheslope Friday 01:16

    Its a deed scetch

    It’s amazing it not that we debate can the financials and legal aspects of the FTTT and be quite hibrow but the moment the word jobbie comes in 🙂


  50. bl00tered says:

    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 07:30

    Apologies if posted already, but this dropped into my mail box this morning.

    ” Rangers Case – What Does It Mean for Contractors?

    HMRC have been very vocal on the subject of tax avoidance of late – however their recent attack on Rangers FC’s remuneration trust arrangement was thrown out by the Courts, a decision that has cost them over £45million in potential income tax & National Insurance.

    Breeze Wealth welcomes the decision which adds to the existing case law supporting our Freelance Wealth Strategy, providing contractors with a framework that enables them to receive a minimum of 84.5% of their contract rate after all taxes, fees and National Insurance has been paid.

    Our free report contains a detailed analysis of the Rangers case and how this decision supports contractors looking to keep an extra £3,000 – £25,000 per annum of their contract rate.

    Our Freelance Wealth Strategy also provides contractors with the following benefits:

    Continuous legal & administrative support
    Fully insured at Lloyd’s of London
    Funds stay within UK at all times
    Umbrella option or use your existing Limited company
    Minimal administration – simply submit your timesheets
    Account manager provided by Breeze
    Download our free report today and read how our Freelance Wealth Strategy is supported by the latest decision of the Courts.”

    http://www.breezewealth.com/attach/breeze-rangers-case-analysis.pdf

    ——————————–
    Without having had the chance to read it, I may be way off, but I can’t quite see the connection between freelance contractor income and EBTs?
    =========================================================================

    Bl00tered….do have a good read.

    You won’t even have to go to the Isle of Man either on business or holiday…your very own “account manager” (sic) will do it all for you.

    Simples!


  51. The FTT(Tax) recorded that “there were, Mr Thornhill conceded, certain instances (Mr Purple and Mr Ely) in which such a tax liability arose.”

    Firstly, these colourful individuals may find their affairs more closely scrutinised as they attempt to meet their liability.

    Secondly, there are now quite a number of people (footballers and others) who received payments via EBTs who will need to consider their next tax return quite carefully. HMRC always recommends voluntary disclosure and can go back quite a number of years** if it believes there has been an attempt to conceal earnings. MGH and others may appear to have “won” at this stage, but some of the employees may have been disadvantaged in the longer term.

    **”1.14 How many years will HMRC go back in terms of seeking PAYE and NICs on allocations within the EBT?

    In certain circumstances the time limits for assessing are extended beyond the normal time limit of 4 years from the end of the relevant tax period to 6 years or 20 years from the end of the relevant tax period.”

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/specialist/ebt-faqs.pdf


  52. A lot of this is guesswork and assumption so bear with me.

    In the majority of the cases the tax tribunal concluded that, as far as PAYE & NI were concerned, no tax liability was found. Now, if HMRC do not seek to challenge the ruling, presumably they will go after these employee’s on the basis that, as the loans did not attract any, or at the very least, little interest tax would be due on a proportion of this sum. However, if the employee’s are in possession of a letter/document that confirms that RFC/MIH would be responsible for any future tax liabilities that may arise, would such a letter/document be acceptable in a court of law. Would the onus for repaying these sums revert back to RFC/MIH.

    Could the employee’s have a “get out of jail free “card.


  53. It would appear, according to the tabloids, that Sports Direct are offering £1.5m / annum for the re-naming of ibrox Stadium. However that figure could rise depending on what league the club is playing in.

    In the normal course of events I would suggest that is not a particularly large sum of money to have a stadium re-named. Particularly if the fans are dead set against it. Celtic for example get £5m per year from Nike, and that is without renaming anything. Presumably the “swoosh” in the stand forms part of that deal.

    However, in the current circumstances Rangers may have no option, particularly if the share issue is not successful. Charles Green’s love for the club he created may not stretch beyond that sort of money for changing the stadium’s name. Particularly if he doesn’t have borrowing facilities in place.

    I do not imagine a lot of the support will be happy. Particularly at this level of income.


  54. Agrajag says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 10:47
    0 0 Rate This
    It would appear, according to the tabloids, that Sports Direct are offering £1.5m / annum for the re-naming of ibrox Stadium. However that figure could rise depending on what league the club is playing in.

    In the normal course of events I would suggest that is not a particularly large sum of money to have a stadium re-named.

    ———————————————————-

    surely the “renaming of the stadium” is only worth what someone will pay for it

    considering the stadium itself only cost 2.5M (or was that including murray park?) then it’s gonna be a hard sell for chuckie to get that sort of money to hang a new sign above the door

    to be honest, most sfl3 clubs would sell their souls to get £1.5M for naming the stadium…i expect sevco to be the same

    Ashley will need to think it through though….it’s likely to ostracise a large client base if he goes for it.

    And then there is the tims who won’t be keen either.


  55. Agrajag says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 10:47

    Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 10:56
    ———————————————————————————————————
    Why a paltry £1.5 million when there are billionaires ready to invest?


  56. I wonder how Chuckles will explain to the TRFC fans that at £1.5m,they’re getting a good deal.Surely asking the 500m fans worldwide for 1p each a year would bring in more money and Ibrox could retain its identity.
    Have Sports Direct admitted being involved in this deal?.
    Has Ashley comfirmed his £1m share investment?.
    Has anybody got any information wrt the share issue?.


  57. iamacant says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 11:09
    0 0 Rate Down
    Agrajag says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 10:47

    Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 10:56
    ———————————————————————————————————
    Why a paltry £1.5 million when there are billionaires ready to invest?
    ———————————————————————————————————

    Because there isn’t

    why a share floatation now…..if the “product” will be worth more when back in the “top flight” and in europe? Wouldn’t these billionaires simply take up the offer now and double there money in a few years?

    as any billionaire worth his salt will tell you…..if you want to make a small fortune from a football club, you have to start with a large one

    No one is gonna throw money into a club – as you can’t get it back.

    sale and lease back of the stadium, ticketing and catering contracts are one way to make some money from a club, maybe even hospitality and travel packages, merchandise – but the process of buying players and expecting the club to live within it’s means and return a dividend or an improved share price is NOT a way to make money

    the “billionaires” will already have divided up the cash cows amongst them and the share issue is simply to provide working capital and leave the fans with the pig in a poke that is a financially struggling football club

    it’ll be the fans who will be asked to continually fund their own ambitions or accept living within their means


  58. tomtomaswell.

    It would appear the application of notional interest to the player’s loans would get them around the taxable benefit in kind arguement. Also, ironically, the notional interest application also increases the size of the loan to be set against the player’s estate when he dies for inheritance tax purposes. I have written previously that I just don’t see how the circle is squared that the interest can be accounted for without either the main trust currently sitting with a sh!tload of cash in it (unlikely) – to pay out to the beneficiary for them to pay back to technically pay off Daddy’s loan, or else the trust has to run at a loss for every penny of interest accruing. Either way, from a taxpayers point of view, that sux!


  59. Sorry meant to add, because the more switched on players also spotted the flaw in a non repayable loan some, but not all, DID receive letters of tax indemnity and in fewer cases letters of repayment indemnity, your so called get out of jail letters.


  60. HAVE YOUR SAY IN THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL SURVEY

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    The survey represents another significant step forward in improving Scottish football and is in keeping with the recommendations of the Henry McLeish Review of Scottish Football commissioned by the Scottish FA in 2010.

    Whether you are a Scotland supporter, a fan of an SPL side, SFL side or simply an armchair spectator, the National Football Survey ensures your voice will be heard.

    Stewart Regan, Scottish FA Chief Executive: “The National Football Survey is essential in canvassing the views of supporters across the country, regardless of what level of team they follow. The Scottish FA has undergone significant modernisation with the implementation of a new Performance Strategy, Compliance Unit and the rolling out of a new board structure, including the formation of the Professional Game and Non Professional Game Boards.

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    TO TAKE PART TODAY, CLICK HERE

    Best Wishes
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  61. Ah the old joke again.

    Winner gets one pair of tickets.

    Loser gets TWO pairs of tickets.

    Sorry, couldn’t resist.


  62. TallBoy says
    Thursday, November 29, 2012

    If you have something to say ytk – say it. I’m making genuine bar-to-bar enquiries here. Check my posting history.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
    I am aware of you posting history & repsect your contributions TBP,I was however refering to the poster puzzlingresult as possibly being from Red Herring..see what i did there 🙂 due to the absence of proof regarding his “client” receiving HMRC’s letter..this has since been probably verified by puzzlingresult at some point later,..or maybe not…?
    I’m just catching up with last nights posts now…


  63. Have to agree with some of the recent posts.

    The amount of cash coming in for stadium naming rights is not the main concern. Whatever is agreed it will be a case of ‘every little helps’.

    More worrying for the Sevcovians is that the only person ever getting mentioned in relation to serious investment or commercial activities with the club is Mike Ashley.

    Others are referred to but on previous form they never appear from the shadows, even if they ever existed.

    Anyone else who Mr Charles publicly named has quickly denied knowledge of all things T’Rangers or distanced themselves from the club and what Mr Charles has said.

    This does not bode well in relation to securing the institutional invetors or other commercial deals.

    Remember Mike Ashley couldn’t get rid of an EPL team with a mad and loyal support in city with only one team. Any chance of him personally getting involved in T’Rangers will be for small beer and it will be viewed as a bit of a punt.

    From my point of view if Sports Direct hadn’t been sniffing around the corpse of JJB for the last few years and getting a good deal on T’Rangers merchandise Mike Ashley may never have ventured north of the border.

    Therefore who does that leave for Mr Charles to work his charms on?

    Like it or not, for the foreseeable future the main bulk of cash is going to have to come from the fans.

    35-45ks worth of season tickets and pay as you go sales along with replica strips and other merchanidse is not to be sniffed at. However the income from that and SFL prize monies (if successful on the park) is well known and fans will have to be realistic to what can be achieved within a relatively fixed budget.


  64. wottpi says:
    Friday, November 30, 2012 at 11:51

    Like it or not, for the foreseeable future the main bulk of cash is going to have to come from the fans.

    35-45ks worth of season tickets and pay as you go sales along with replica strips and other merchanidse is not to be sniffed at. However the income from that and SFL prize monies (if successful on the park) is well known and fans will have to be realistic to what can be achieved within a relatively fixed budget.

    ===================================

    Absolutely.

    So long as the fans are willing to accept that there is a finite income, and a business either unable or unwilling to go into debt, and they are willing to live within those means then that will be OK.

    However there are two immediate issues with that.

    1, Can they sustain that level of income (from supporters) with limited success.

    2, What about the profits which are to go to investors.

    Mr Green does not appear to be claiming Rangers will be a stand alone business. Run purely for football and the fans. Apparetnyl investors will be getting a return. I don’t see many of the fans being happy with that. Albeit they wouldn’t even have their new club without these “investors.

    An early share issue, and potential sale of naming rights for such a small sum only goes to re-inforce the view that there are financial problems at {insert name here} stadium.


  65. My understanding is that HMRC have to lodge their intention to appeal by Christmas Eve (56 days from Oct 29th), as we stand at present, I am being assured, this will be done.

    The BDO/Creditors meeting early next week will be VERY illuminating as we ascertain who owes what and to whom.

    We live in interesting times.


  66. Happy Saint Andrew’s day, Saunt Andra’s day, Latha Naomh Andra everybody. Our young stars of the future had tough luck last night, losing 1-0 to an added time goal by England in the Victory Shield. Disappointing as that is, I gather the performance was encouraging. There’s definitely hope there if those young lads and others work at it. As the organization, facilities and scouting improve, things will get better for oor fitba’.

    But where are the parades celebrating nationality, and national saint on this day?


  67. Is there any obligation on broadcasters to use a sponsor’s name, when talking about a stadium?

    Surely broadcasters would normally charge for that kind of advertising, and the BBC would avoid it altogether?


  68. and here’s the results from tonights Clydesdale Bank Premier league…


  69. willmacufree

    I watched that game last night, the difference between the sides was physique, the Scottish lads more than made up for the size difference with their technical abaility.

    We have a very, very good man in charge now, I see lots of promise for the future. The Celtic youth model is one that other clubs should be takiing an interest in, it is patently working.

    I went to Manchester last summer to watch Celtic emerging youth dismantle a (circa £6 Million) City side.
    The Man City fans we were watching with, to their credit, gave great praise to the Celtic kids, one of whom was Tony Watt.

    The best player on the park that night IMHO was Paul George who is just returning to action after having his leg broken v Rangers.

    Aberdeen and Dundee Utd have always had great youth set ups, hopefully we are seeing a rebirth of the talent coming through the ranks of all clubs in Scotland and we can get back to the quality of competition we had prior to David Murray skewing the playing field.

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