The SPFL— the case for revolution, evolution and a case of the Hamilton Whackies !

Bybroganrogantrevinoandhogan

The SPFL— the case for revolution, evolution and a case of the Hamilton Whackies !

Good Evening.

As we ponder the historic vote to create a new Governing body to oversee Scottish League football, I cannot help but wonder what brilliant minds will be employed in the drawing up of its constitution, rules, memorandum and articles of association?

Clearly, Messrs Doncaster, Longmuir and even Mr Regan as the CEO of the SFA will be spending many hours with those dreaded folk known simply as “ The Lawyers” in an attempt to get the whole thing up and running and written down in the course of a few short weeks.

In truth, that scares me.

It scares me because legal documentation written up in a hurry or in a rush is seldom perfect and often needs amendment—especially when the errors start to show! The old adage of beware of the busy fool sadly applies.

It also scares me because the existing rules under which the game is governed are not, in my humble opinion, particularly well written and seem to differ in certain material respects from those of UEFA. Even then, adopting the wording and the approach of other bodies is not necessarily the way to go.

I am all in favour of some original thought– and that most precious and unusual of commodities known as common sense and plain English.

Further, the various licensing and compliance rules are clearly in need of an overhaul as they have of late produced what can only be best described as a lack of clarity when studied for the purposes of interpretation. Either that or those doing the studying and interpreting are afflicted with what might be described as tortuous or even tortured legal and administrative minds.

If it is not by now clear that the notion of self-certification on financial and other essential disclosure criteria necessary to obtain a footballing licence (whether European or domestic) is a total non-starter — then those in charge of the game are truly bonkers.

Whilst no governing body can wholly control the actions of a member club, or those who run a club, surely provisions can be inserted into any constitution or set of rules that allows and brings about greater vigilance and scrutiny than we have at present—all of course designed to do nothing other than alert the authorities as early as possible if matters are not being conducted properly or fairly.

However, the main change that would make a difference to most of the folk involved in the Scottish game – namely the fans— would be to have the new rules incorporate a measure which allowed football fans themselves to be represented on any executive or committee.

Clearly, this would be a somewhat revolutionary step and would be fought against tooth and nail by some for no reason other than that it has simply not been done before—especially as the league body is there to regulate the affairs of a number of limited companies all of whom have shareholders to account to and the clubs themselves would presumably be the shareholders in the new SPFL Ltd.

Then again to my knowledge Neil Doncaster is not a shareholder in The SPL ltd– is he?

I can hear the argument that a fan representative on a league body might not be impartial, might be unprofessional, might be biased, might lack knowledge or experience, and have their own agenda and so on—just like many chairmen and chief executive officers who already sit on the committees of the existing league bodies.

Remember too that the SFA until relatively recently had disciplinary committees made up almost exclusively of referees. I don’t think anyone would argue that the widening of the make up of that committee has been a backward step.

However, we already have fan representation at clubs like St Mirren and Motherwell, and of course there has been an established Tartan Army body for some time now. Clubs other than the two mentioned above have mechanisms whereby they communicate and consult with fans, although they stop short of full fan participation– very often for supposedly insurmountable legal reasons.

As often as not, the fans want a say in the running of their club, but also want to be able to make representations to the governing bodies via their club.

So why not include the fans directly in the new set up for governing the league?

Any fan representative could  be someone proposed by a properly registered fan body such as through official supporters clubs, or could be seconded by the clubs acting in concert with their supporters clubs.

Perhaps a committee of fan representatives could be created, with such a committee having a representative on the various committees of the new league body.

In this way, there would be a fan who could report back to the fan committee and who could represent the interests of the ordinary fan in the street in any of the committees. Equally such a committee of fans could ensure that any behind the scenes discussions on any issue were properly reported, openly discussed, and made public with no fear of hidden agendas, secret meetings, and secret collusive agreements and so forth.

Is any of that unreasonable? Surely many companies consider the views of their biggest customer? This idea is no different.

Surely such a situation would go some way towards establishing some badly needed trust between the governing bodies and the fans themselves?

If necessary, I would not even object to the fan representatives being excluded from having a right to vote on certain matters—as long as they had a full right of audience and a full right of access to all discussions and relative papers which affect the running of the game.

In this way at least there would be openness and transparency.

In short, it would be a move towards what is quaintly referred to as Democracy.

Perhaps, those who run the game at present should consider the life and times of the late great Alexander Hamilton- one of the founding fathers of the United States of America and who played a significant role in helping write the constitution of that country.

Hamilton was a decent and brilliant man in many ways—but he was dead set against Democracy and the liberation of rights for the masses. In fact, he stated that the best that can be hoped for the mass populace is that they be properly armed with a gun and so able to protect themselves against injustice!

Sadly, Hamilton became embroiled in a bitter dispute with the then Vice President of the nation Aaron Burr in July 1804. Hamilton had used his influence and ensured that Burr lost the election to become Governor of New York and had made some withering attacks on the Vice President’s character.

When he refused to apologise, the Vice President took a whacky notion and challenged him to a duel! Even more whacky is the fact that Hamilton accepted the challenge and so the contest took place at Weehawken New Jersey on the morning of 11th July 1804.

The night before, Hamilton wrote a letter which heavily suggested that he would contrive to miss Burr with his shot, and indeed when the pistols fired Hamilton’s bullet struck a branch immediately above Burr’s head.

However, he did not follow the proper procedure for duelling which required a warning from the duellist that they are going to throw their shot away. Hamilton gave no such indication despite the terms of his letter and despite his shot clearly missing his opponent.

Burr however fired and hit Hamilton in the lower abdomen with the result that the former secretary to the treasury and founding father of the constitution died at 2pm on the twelfth of July.

The incident ruined Burr’s career (whilst duelling was still technically legal in New jersey, it had already been outlawed in various other states).

In any event, in Hamilton’s time full and open democracy in the United States of America would have met with many cries of outrage and bitter opposition. Yet, today, the descendants of slaves and everyone from all social standings, all ethnic minorities and every social background has the constitutional right to vote and seek entry to corridors of power.

In that light, is it really asking too much to allow football fans to have a say and a presence in the running of a game they pay so much to support?

 

About the author

broganrogantrevinoandhogan author

Boot wearing football, sport & total nonsense fan-- Gourmet, Bon Viveur and eedgit! - Oh and I write a bit occasionally!

4,181 Comments so far

taxman comethPosted on6:25 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Bangordub says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:24 pm
0 1 Rate This

Correction Taxman Cometh:
785,740 RIFC Sold not bought

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=rangers_int

=========

how can one have a sell without a buyer?

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BangordubPosted on6:32 pm - Jun 13, 2013


the taxman cometh says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm

how can one have a sell without a buyer?

One of Lifes great mysteries, one for the finance specialists here I think?

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on6:56 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Bangordub says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:32 pm

0

1

Rate This

the taxman cometh says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm

how can one have a sell without a buyer?

One of Lifes great mysteries, one for the finance specialists here I think?

_______________________________________

You can’t. Its to do with the ‘spread’.

Person A has an RFC share. He is willing to sell it for X
Person B wants and RFC shares. He is willing to buy it for X-dx, where dx is a small number.

If person C approaces A and says ‘I will give you X for your share’, the shares are ‘bought’ – they are in demand because C is willing to pay a premium (dx) over what Person B values his shares at. The share price is increasing, because person A is gone from the market and so there are fewer available opportunities for the person wishing to buy. Demands takes the price up. This is classes as a ‘BUY’ Transaction.

Alternatively person C approaches person B and says, I’ll take your share off you for X-dx. Person B breathes a sigh of relief and pockets his cash. But now person C – who was willing to pay a sum approaching X (only dx shy of it) has left the market. There are fewer people with cash who want shares than there were, and fewer opportunities for people with shares they don’t want to own to dispose of them. The excess supply of shares in the market takes the on a downward course. This is classes as a ‘SELL’ Transaction.

Hope this helps.

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essexbeancounterPosted on7:03 pm - Jun 13, 2013


briggsbhoy says:

June 12, 2013 at 11:27 pm

john clarke says:
June 12, 2013 at 11:22 pm

Ooh deep thinking there, heavy stuff. I could never drink in the Crow again if my mug was recognised and God forbid I have to go back to Quin’s
============================================================================

Test post…but I have such fond memories of Quin’s…both at Briggs and in Springburn…!

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newtzPosted on7:23 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Castofthousands says:

June 13, 2013 at 5:16 pm
———————————-

No probs ….. its really an aid memoir …. but sitting back looking at the whole picture is illuminating … quite astounding the interconnections ….
Credit must also go to many contributers on both here and Paul McC’s site ….. as links or associations appear I simply add them and where appropriate I add hyperlinks etc

I must upload the latest sometime as it has grown and been cleaned a touch ….

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on7:36 pm - Jun 13, 2013


been trying to logon and keep getting rejected…
reminded me, very much of my teenage years!

am i on now?

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timtimPosted on7:45 pm - Jun 13, 2013


I t p*sses me off when people just post “test”
but now I understand why they do
sorry if I p*ss anyone off

“test”

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john clarkePosted on7:54 pm - Jun 13, 2013


iceman63 says:
June 13, 2013 at 5:03 pm
‘…clearky nonsense as to fail to oppose is de facto support. ‘
—With respect, that remark shows an earnest naivete that would do credit to a first year student debater,
or a Bible literalist.
Celtic are doing all that is required of them on the present state of the evidence.
What they are NOT doing is wasting their time wishing that they could get back to ‘Old Firm’ days.
And what they will not do is make themselves needless martyrs to satisfy a lunatic fringe who cannot see agit-prop for what it is, or who have tendencies to glorious self-destruction as somehow praiseworthy.
When one is dealing with vipers, one gives them no chance of striking.

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newtzPosted on7:54 pm - Jun 13, 2013


newtz says:
June 12, 2013 at 10:48 pm

Filling in some blanks from the last audio ….
CW laid his case out that he had received Bad Advice from his legals ….

He also mentioned Saffreys …. and mentioned his surprise that they had’nt had the heat turned on them like everyone else …..

So lets go back to last Oct (2012) following the Daly exposure of the tape recording of the meeting between himself, Grier and D&P (formerly MCR) ….. Whyte was claiming everybody knew … the recording released at the time was a bombshell …. esp for D&P

Grier responded with quite an interesting response ……

“Financial due diligence and other work was provided by Saffery Champness, a firm of chartered accountants who specialise in this area, and our primary role was to provide assistance to Liberty Capital in negotiating a settlement and assignment of the debt due to Lloyds Bank”

So I think that helps glue some of the recent recording together … Saffreys are the ones providing Bad Advice …. etc

Also remember the CW statement and D&P response at the time …..

CW (BBC Interview) ….
“everybody who was involved in the deal team at the time knew about” the Ticketus deal.” ….. “They (Duff and Phelps) knew everything, they attended meetings, they were copied into all the emails, they were there on the day of completion. They knew from the start.”

Paul Clark, ( Duff and Phelps ) responded ….
“The allegations against the administrators, who are officers of the court, are false, malicious and without foundation”
————————————–
Castofthousands says:
June 13, 2013 at 12:08 am
Newtz says:
June 12, 2013 at 10:48 pm
“CW laid his case out that he had received Bad Advice from his legals”.
—————
Is your conclusion that Saffrey Champness could have been the fulcrum in a sting?
—————————————————————————————————————

To follow up on this further …..

(from Paul McC see below) … transcript on the BBC website reads as follows:-
During the exchange ……

Mr Grier said: “I’ll tell you what we’re doing with that just so you…
Mr Whyte: “Yeah.
Mr Grier: “We, we went to see counsel yesterday and had a full sort of debrief of all the email correspondence.
Mr Whyte: “Yep.
Mr Grier: “Now, the fact is that we probably did know what was going on with Ticketus. There’s no email traffic whatsoever.
Mr Whyte: “That says that you did?”
Mr Grier: “That says that we did.
Mr White: “But we all know that you did and f****** hell.
Mr Grier: “Yeah, yeah. There’s no…we were not involved in dealing with Ticketus directly.
Mr Whyte: “Yeah. So you knew the structures of the deal. You were dealing with Lloyds.
Mr Grier: “Absolutely.
Mr Whyte: “And the Ticketus part was Saffreys.
Mr Grier “Yeah. So we’ve maintained that line quite rigorously.”

—————————————————————————————

When I get time I will try and timeline all of this along with the many CtH email and audio exposures …. that will paint the whole picture much better ….

It does appear though that it was D&P’s primary role to provide assistance to Liberty Capital in negotiating a settlement and assignment of the debt due to Lloyds Bank. (ref Paul McC see below)

This was possible due to the fact that the original bank assignment was pre 2002.The rules applicable to administration were different at that time allowing CW to control the administration process …… and both CW and D&P have confirmed that in the audio ….. !

Useful Reference :
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/24/mark-daly-reveals-rangers-smoking-gun-craig-whyte-taped-david-grier-of-duff-phelps/

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borussiabeefburgPosted on7:55 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Been considering the proposed pyramid system and more especially the Lowland League, which perhaps has not been considered by the planners. Who will be invited? Looking at those clubs which finished as top two this season in the highest rated leagues, we have:-

East of Scotland League: Whitehill Welfare (from a village of 1,400 souls) and Stirling University. The South of Scotland League was won by Dalbeattie Star, with St Cuthbert Wanderers as runners up. Of the four listed so far, St Cuthbert, from Kirkcudbright are the only side with floodlights, which are quite dated. And the four grounds offer, in total 626 seats.

Of the juniors, Auchinleck Talbot won the West Superleague by a massive 23 points from Petershill. The Peasies have a relatively new ground (opened 2007) housing a 500 seat stand, and floodlights, while Talbot have one of Hamilton Accies’ old stands which holds 500. No lights, though’ at Beechwood Park.
In the east, Linlithgow won their Superleague by a good margin, which may be 19 points after they complete their programme this Saturday. Their ground is one of junior football’s best, with seats for 301 and a covered terrace opposite. And they have floodlights. However, runners up Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic have no stand and no floodlights.

Cutting to the chase, of the eight clubs I’ve listed, Whitehill Welfare, Stirling University, and Dalbeattie Star have expressed interest in applying. All conquering Auchinleck Talbot have reportedly stated they have no desire to be involved (see http://twishort.com/user/atfc1909 ), and Linlithgow Rose too have not expressed an interest.

Some sites have Kirkintilloch Rob Roy, Pollok and Sauchie Juniors wishing to take part, while Gala Fairydean, Spartans and Preston Athletic too are claimed to have applied.

Remember there is a North Junior Region, and also a North Caledonian League, but it might be inconvenient to consider it, given the plan to simply convert the Highland League into a feeder group. Maybe the senior Highland League is expected to consume North Region junior clubs.
But I have a thought. Might the Lowland League be the starting point for two other sides which the authorities have at times being trying to foist on the wee clubs: Celtic Colts and Rangers Colts. Just we haven’t been told yet.

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timtimPosted on8:04 pm - Jun 13, 2013


So Campbell what about this scandal with Rfc*
You mean the one where we issued a uefa licence when they were insolvent?
No the other one !
You mean the one where we ignored the registration rules when they played Brechin?
No the other one !
You mean the one where we pretended Craig Whyte was a fit and proper person?
No the other one
You mean the one where we ignored the big0t comments by Charles Green?
No the other one!
You mean the one where we ignored the small tax case ?
No the other one!
You mean the one where we ignored the 5 side letters revealing secret payments?
No the other one !
You mean the secret 5 way agreement?
No the other one!
You mean the one where Rfc* took us to court against Uefa rules?
No the other one!
You mean the one where I got a good night out from a Rfc* EBT ?
No the other one!
You mean the one where we asked Rfc* to clear our press statements ?
No the other one!
You mean the one where we pretend the THE in Rfc* means nothing has changed?
No the other one !
You mean letting them hide the 5 stars under their armpit?
No the other one!
You mean not hearing them sing naughty songs
No the other one!
You mean……….?
No the other one!
You mean……..?
No the other one!
You mean……..?
No the other one!
I’m getting fed up with this ,they are the same club you know !!

Campbell-pull the other one its got bells on

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north rdPosted on8:07 pm - Jun 13, 2013


What is the view on the SFL not getting allowed to see SPL finances? Or the Sky/SPL deal?

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jonsouthgenPosted on8:10 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Iceman 63 @5.03.I am struck by the total lack of evidence for your proposal re Celtic Board wishing for a swift return of their greatest rivals. So they want their competitor for access to European riches back in the hunt soon.?Why ?..and wouldn’t that constitute not looking after their shareholders best interests.?

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justshateredPosted on8:11 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Just to clarify the status of the information that CF is uploading;
The media won’t touch or mention it because they don’t know if the information was legally obtained.
Yet today we have an MP calling for an investigation into Google’s tax affairs due to information brought into the public domain by ………………………………………… yes you’ve guessed it a whistle blower.

Now I do know that there is Parliamentary privilege that covers words spoken in the Commons but I was not aware that this extended to documents, which on the face of it, seem to have been obtained from the company without their prior consent. In other words ‘half inched’.

Surely all we need to do is get an MP to ask a question in the House to the relevant Minister while providing all of the information that CF has uploaded so that the Minister can make an informed decision. Surely at this point the information is in the public domain and available for dissection by the English media.
Lets face it at that point all of the Scottish press will lose the power in both arms and be unable to type and just rely on a daily press release. Oh wait a minute that’s what the lazy rodents do just now.

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jimlarkinPosted on8:20 pm - Jun 13, 2013


the taxman cometh says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:25 pm
11 1 Rate This

Bangordub says:
June 13, 2013 at 6:24 pm
0 1 Rate This

Correction Taxman Cometh:
785,740 RIFC Sold not bought

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=rangers_int
——————————————————————–

how can one have a sell without a buyer?

==============================

that’s the mystery of the “stock market”

they’ve got traders
– who have no money, who buy commodities that they don’t see, with money they don’t have, and they sell
to people who they never meet or see, who “pay” for the stuff with money that they don’t have…

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upthehoopsPosted on8:28 pm - Jun 13, 2013


A bit off topic but meaningful in terms of the SFA and Rangers.

In 1976 Kenny Dalglish, then of Celtic, was about to equal the record number of consecutive appearances for Scotland – the record at the time was held by former Rangers Captain George Young. Then, without explanation, Dalglish was dropped from the team for a home international against Wales, and was not even listed as a substitute – it is a matter of factual record he was not injured. He was re-instated to the team for the next home international, but of course he could not then equal the record of George Young. Dalglish did go on to set the consecutive appearances record once he moved to Liverpool.

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jean7brodiePosted on8:37 pm - Jun 13, 2013


timtim says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm
Really enjoyed that timtim!

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jimlarkinPosted on8:40 pm - Jun 13, 2013


By Brian McLauchlin
BBC Scotland
Hearts require a sum of just over £500,000 to keep the club running until the start of the new season, BBC Scotland has learned.
The Tynecastle outfit have announced they will listen to offers for their entire first team squad as they attempt to keep the club afloat.
The amount needed to sustain the club over the summer equates to sales of 2,000 season tickets.
Hearts need to raise money quickly to pay salaries and tax liabilities.
As well as player and staff wages, the balance of an outstanding PAYE tax bill of £50,000 is due to be paid soon and further amounts will become due at the end of June, including a significant six-figure sum in relation to VAT.
In August the club are due to receive further payments from sponsors as well as a significant sum from the Scottish Premier League.
———————————————————————————————————–

… to “keep the club afloat”

WTF

ehere has this churnalist been for the last 2 years?

surely he means

… to keep the parent or operator afloat

because whatever happens on the cash front – the club is unaffected ??!!

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john clarkePosted on8:44 pm - Jun 13, 2013


upthehoops says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:28 pm
‘…without explanation, Dalglish was dropped from the team for a home international.’
——-
And the pettiness of that little dirty deed confirmed to us all at the time that there was no piece of knavery that the SFA would not get up to in the interests of one particular club then.

And a new generation is seeing for itself now that things have not really changed.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:51 pm - Jun 13, 2013


A wee bit of charity news from Ibrox:

RANGERS Legend Mark Hateley paid a special visit to The Prince & Princess of Wales Hospice today to hand over a £35,000 cheque for the Hospice’s Brick by Brick appeal from the Rangers Charity Foundation.

The donation represents the first installment of the Foundation’s pledge to raise £100,000 towards a new, 21st century state of the art palliative care facility for Glasgow.

The Rangers Charity Foundation is working with the Hospice on this long-term project to provide a lasting and significant legacy to the people of Glasgow and Hateley was delighted to visit the Hospice and chat to patients, their families and staff.

He said: “The Prince and Princess of Wales Hospice is an amazing, incredibly caring place and the Rangers Charity Foundation is very proud to support their project to create a new facility that really addresses the needs of patients.

“Having looked over the latest plans today for the new development, the facility will be fantastic and I know the Foundation is particularly delighted to be funding the Family Suite, which will allow patients to spend as much time with their families as possible in a safe and comfortable environment.”

Jennifer Easson, Capital Appeal Fundraiser, said: “We are amazed at the level of support received from the Rangers Charity Foundation and we continue to enjoy developing our partnership with them.

“Their enthusiasm in supporting our Brick by Brick Appeal for the new hospice has been fantastic and we are delighted with the fundraising efforts achieved to date.

“It is great to have Mark back visiting us here at the Hospice today, our patients and families always welcome and encourage the support shown by our celebrities.”

Connal Cochrane, Manager of the Rangers Charity Foundation, said: “I would like to thank all the supporters who have made this donation to a very special cause possible through their enthusiastic support of the Foundation and its partnership with the Hospice.

“Fans have supported our events and challenges throughout the season, as well as dreaming up their own fundraisers. Thanks too to everyone who braved the icy seas at Ardrossan to take part in the Hospice’s Dash n Splash event.

“Our supporters have been amazing this year and we are looking forward to giving out another donation in the next few weeks to our National Charity Partner ABF The Soldiers Charity.”

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BayviewGoldPosted on8:58 pm - Jun 13, 2013


tried to login with my wordpress.com account – got told “you do not own that identity” I hope that nice mr Green hasn’t novated across my account when I wasn’t paying attention.

[TSFM] TRY AGAIN – SHOULD BE FIXED – HOPEFULLY

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timtimPosted on9:08 pm - Jun 13, 2013


thanks Jean ,appreciated.

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HirsutePursuitPosted on9:16 pm - Jun 13, 2013


North Rd says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:07 pm
0 0 Rate This

What is the view on the SFL not getting allowed to see SPL finances? Or the Sky/SPL deal?
===============================================
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19070877

Negotiations that followed Rangers being voted into Division Three by the Scottish Football League clubs have produced a new deal, with coverage beginning with Celtic at home to Aberdeen on Saturday, with a kick-off time of 12:45 having already been announced to suit television coverage.
Rangers’ first game in the Third Division, away to Peterhead on 11 August at 12:45, will also be broadcast live.
The new deal is subject to ratification by the SPL clubs on Friday.
Barney Francis, managing director of Sky Sports, said: “We’ve supported Scottish football since we started, over 20 years ago, and have always wanted to continue that commitment.
“Our viewers will see the SPL for five more years and our schedule includes the opening league match for Celtic.
“We will also follow Rangers as they plot their way back to Scottish football’s top flight.

The Sky with the SPL required access to the new club’s games.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-leaked-email/2305

2. The television rights for Rangers FC matches in the SFL will be purchased by the SPL for the sum of £1m as a one-off fee for the season 2012/2013.

With no TV deal with the SFL in place for 2013/14 the SPL simply bluffed them into this forced marriage.

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TSFMPosted on9:38 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Okay folks, I think we have a working login page for use with WordPress.com and Twitter (just click the respective icons on the comments box if you are not logged in. Meantime, I will keep the email and name boxes as an alternative login for those who do not wish to register. Can anyone experiencing difficulties let me know what the problem is via the contact pages?

There will be good reasons to register if we can get the technical difficulties sorted – not leas the ability to edit your own comments.

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Geordie BhoyPosted on9:44 pm - Jun 13, 2013


iceman63 says:
June 13, 2013 at 5:03 pm

————————————–

john clarke says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm

jonsouthgen says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:10 pm

————————————-

I am with iceman63. “Judge people by their actions” was advice passed on to me by my father. So far, the only actions that I have seen Celtic FC carry out are:

1) Tell the Scottish Government that they can survive financially without Rangers FC;
2) Express mild surprise at the LNS commission’s verdict when investigating fielding ineligible players;
3) Expressing fulsome praise for Neil Doncaster for his sterling efforts on reconstruction.

Actions I have not witnessed:

1) Stating publicly that the rules should be followed without fear or favour;
2) Expressing disquiet about the lies & duplicity involved when granting Sevco FC a football licence;
3) Questioning the result of the LNS commission;
4) Appealing the result of the LNS commission for the reputational loss of Celtic FC and the financial loss of its shareholders caused by the continued breaching of the rules by Rangers FC;
5) Fielding an alternative candidate for the position of SFA president;
6) Organising meetings to address supporters’ concerns;
7) Showing any transparency in its or its SPL/SFA board member’s decisions;
8) Show any understanding that the broken business modei is irreparable.

Granted, all of these inactions are applicable to the other clubs (with the noted exceptions of Motherwell, St. Mirren and Raith Rovers who have had meetings with the fans). The question of putting European money at risk is a joke: there is no way Sevco can compete with their playing & management staff. I think the Celtic board are concerned that without the hate fest of the “Old Firm” games, fans will drift away from the club. In that, they are right – but fans are leaving in disgust because they believe the board are complicit with what has taken place.

Waiting and seeing has brought Scottish football to its knees. The clubs have made it clear that they do not want contact with the fans (they do not even acknowledge e-mails!) – only our money. The only reason change was effected last year was due to supporters witholding the purchase of season tickets and that will be the extent of our influence this year. Paying up without question will only ensure the corruption. Sevco supporters are constantly accused of wilful blindness … well, the same is true of Celtic supporters. The scales dropped from my eyes this time last year.

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Lisbon67Posted on9:48 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Regarding the Euro license fiasco for 2011/12 could one of the posters who lives in the east end of Glasgow ask their MP or MSP to ask questions about the granting of said license.

As some of you who attend champions league games at Celtic Park will know the spin off for the local businesses can be huge with a 60,000 crowd eating ,drinking and spending as they make their way to and from the game.

I’m sure any MP or MSP worth their salt wouldn’t be too happy to find out that their constituents have lost out on vital revenues in these trying times and I’m sure the local businesses wont be happy either.

I think this is the approach we are going to need to start looking at before the corruption at Hampden is cut out of our game.

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twopandaPosted on9:54 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Enjoy – marvellous just marvellous 😉
http://www.supporters-direct.org/homepage/what-we-do/scotland

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easyJamboPosted on9:55 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Re the Hearts situation – Here’s the gist of a post I made on a Hearts forum earlier today following the Board’s statement on the official site.

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20130613/board-statement-financial-and-player-update_2241384_3208756

Let’s say it is no surprise to me that the money has already run out. Nor more importantly is it a surprise to the Board.

Sure higher season ticket sales might have kept us going over the summer, but that is it. Even with the most optimistic forecast, we always had a deficit of £2.5M to fund which was always unrealistic. Don’t be fooled that there would be enough income come the start of the season to see us through the season. There isn’t enough from walk up sales and SPL/SPFL money to fund the club without further injections of cash.

The hole in the budget is the money going out in interest and capital repayments to UBIG and Ukio of around £120,000 a month since March. We have also had to fund £242,000 in payments to HMRC between May and June for the big tax case. These weren’t surprises to the Board. They would have been included in the cashflow forecast. Similarly PAYE is not a surprise. The Board should know to the penny how much will be going out. PAYE is not the club’s money anyway, as the club only acts as an agent for the players in their PAYE payments.

Most clubs start taking in their ST money in May. It helps them get through the summer and the first half of the season. Hearts well publicised cashflow problems meant they took money in in March and spent it immediately it arrived.

The club has only survived thus far with the goodwill of the fans, but it’s not a limitless pot as the club has found out. That reality is with us today.

So what next? I can’t criticise anyone who wants to fans to bail the club out one more time, nor can I criticise anyone who can’t or won’t put any more cash in now.

For me it would be good money after bad. My view is that the Board are only seeking to survive until a white knight arrives, whether it is a Massone, FoH , Scandinavian or whatever bid. That way they hope to maximise the value of the club. There is no plan that will see us survive more than a couple of months, even if more season ticket money comes in. The Loan interest and HMRC payments will kill us anyway.

I’m pretty sure the Board undoubtedly still want to avoid administration in order that the sale will generate maximum funds rather than be diluted by the administrators expenses. It may be brinkmanship on the Board’s part, but I think that is also the case for the prospective bidders. I see little hope of the club being bought before administration hits.

The only way out that I can see is that if FoH agrees a deal with the Ukio administrator to deliver all the UBIG and Ukio shares to them in the next couple of days, in return for dealing with the immediate cashflow problem (say £100K up front) while a deal is done on the debt over the next couple of weeks. If the deal isn’t done, then the club goes into admin anyway. If a deal is done then there is just a glimmer of hope that the fans will get together with a common purpose and see the club through what will be a turbulent season in any event.

The transfer of shares is important as it would offer the chance of avoiding any points penalty for next season, by taking ownership and control away from UBIG. Ukio and UBIG’s debt positions would remain intact until a deal was done/not done.

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neepheidPosted on9:57 pm - Jun 13, 2013


john clarke says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm

When one is dealing with vipers, one gives them no chance of striking.

++++++++++++
Wise words- so why are Celtic complicit in leaving Ogilvie in post, a viper who will most certainly strike them when the moment is right?

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TartawulverPosted on10:02 pm - Jun 13, 2013


timtim says:
June 13, 2013 at 8:04 pm
So Campbell what about this scandal with Rfc*
————————————————
A classic post. Brutally to the point.

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Geordie BhoyPosted on10:08 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Reconstruction? Or last year’s plan come to fruition?

Have a look at what has just been agreed by the SPL and SFL and compare it to the plan of action that was leaked to Alex Thomson and published by him on 15th July 2012: http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-leaked-email/2305

The clubs have been taking their customers for fools ever since we made our stand last year.

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john clarkePosted on10:28 pm - Jun 13, 2013


neepheid says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:57 pm

‘Wise words- so why are Celtic complicit in leaving Ogilvie in post…’
——
Celtic did not leave Ogilvie in post!
The WHOLE membership of the SFA did not, it appears, produce another candidate.

Are you suggesting that Peter Lawwell should have stood for the post?

Should have lobbied for the post?

Should have been a one-man ‘let’s get rid of the tainted Ogilvie’ party?

Should have hurled accusations about at an AGM like a street rabble- rouser ( Bomber, anyone?)?

Should have resigned from the SFA?

Have you lost your senses?

Let’s us just concentrate our fire on the real baddies: those who tried to screw us all, and those who not only did nothing to stop them but have been and are still super-active in trying to prevent them suffering the full penalty for what they did.

( The dirty little conspiracies of the falling-out -among-themselves shysters who stiffed the crediitors of RFC(IL) AND who are currently secretly insulting and mocking the manager and supporters of RIFC, are of secondary interest).

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Bill1903Posted on10:37 pm - Jun 13, 2013


I’m sure the SPL chairmen could’ve got rid of Ogilvie if they’d wanted to.

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john clarkePosted on10:44 pm - Jun 13, 2013


martybhoy says:
June 13, 2013 at 10:21 pm
‘..Hope the Hoops support wakes up to this soon and doesn’t embrace the Zombie denial strategy.
Peter Lawell should explain our club’s position or resign…’
——
Ok, I’ll indulge you.
Tell me what you would like to hear him say.
Or tell me what you would hope for if he resigned as CEO.( I take it you’re not after the job yourself?Get in line!) 🙂

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AuldheidPosted on10:46 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Justshattered

That is exactly how we get CF leaks into the mainstream. Write to our MPs and or MSPs on the extension of tax avoidance by manipulative use of insolvency laws as is being demonstrated by Charlotte Fakes revelations on Rangers insolvency.
It is pretty obvious that insolvency laws intended to help companies back on their feet are being used by spivs as a legal means of lining their pockets.
MPs should be asking the UK and Scottish governments if they are aware how insolvency was being used to deny creditors, including tax payers, a rightful share of the proceeds of insolvency whilst those charged with looking after creditor interests appeared to be looking after themselves and the spawn of delinquent companies.
Tax avoidance is today’s big political ssue and we should use the politics to make what is going on in Scotland regarding Rangers insolvency a matter of public interest.
I’d have a go at a suggested draft but do not have the right experience to get a “feel” for the issues to articulate the message to my own satisfaction.
However I remember RTC blog had guys from the insolvency profession who, if still around could perhaps come up with a form of words that cover the technical aspect that others can dress up in their own language and send to their MP or MSP.

Once we have a template on the technicalities we can get the word out via twitter or facebook to turn it into action.

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neepheidPosted on10:52 pm - Jun 13, 2013


john clarke says:
June 13, 2013 at 10:28 pm

Celtic did not leave Ogilvie in post!
The WHOLE membership of the SFA did not, it appears, produce another candidate.

Are you suggesting that Peter Lawwell should have stood for the post?
++++++++++++++
No, I didn’t suggest that at all.
All Celtic had to do was nominate an alternative candidate, and vote for that candidate. No need for campaigns, accusations, lobbying, or anything of the sort. By not doing that, Celtic have been complicit in leaving Ogilvie in post. That, I’m afraid, is a fact, and a fact that Celtic will pay for dearly in years to come, when the viper that they have so obligingly accommodated turns round and bites them.

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justshateredPosted on10:52 pm - Jun 13, 2013


At the very least I believe fans of all clubs expect statements from their boards with regards to the re-election of CO.
The simple question to ask is ‘Are you happy with they way the SFA have applied the rules of our sport over the last 18 months?’
If clubs are not happy then they need to explain what they are not happy about and why they, individually and collectively, did not do something about it.
We all know rules have been made up, ignored, and bent to breaking point. Its getting to the stage now that, if a certain club makes it back to the top league, they will not be covered by the offside rule.
Tax bills crystalizing, when they crystalized is nonsense. At this stage it seems that a bill is only a bill from the point you start to write the cheque, complete it, and physically hand it over.
Player registrations are valid even when incomplete or not within the rules.
Rules themselves would seem to have counter rules stating virtually the opposite. This is the blue area we heard about in our youth but still seems remarkably active in the 21st century.

Ultimately clubs themselves have to look in the mirror and into the faces of their own support and justify their individual stance on this matter.
I’m personally ashamed of my clubs silence on the governance of Scottish football. I’m also disappointed in the fans as well because their has been two Scottish Cup semi-finals and a final where their was ample opportunity for fans groups to get together from all clubs involved to make a protest other than a boycott. Those three chances were squandered.
It is also the fans collectively that need to communicate with each other and protest together at matches in way that catches attention.

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peteedinPosted on11:01 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Re: borussiabeefburg says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:55 pm

Hibs have already applied to join (& been accepted) the East of Scotland League (2nd Division) and have indicated they want to progress to whatever that metamorphoses into (Berwick reserves are already there)

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/hibs-youth-head-hails-benefits-of-east-league-1-2965257

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AuldheidPosted on11:05 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Martbhoy

When Celtic adopted a live within our means strategy and develop our own players the Celtic Board were pilloried for what the support thought this meant which was years of playing 2nd fiddle to Rangers.

It was a painful time but history is telling us that armed with what they knew The Board were acting in Celtic’s long term interest. And they have been proven right in the adopted strategy.

I think we are in the same position now and equally frustrating as the silent strategy is we have no idea what use Celtic are making of what is being revealed.

So whilst sound bites are nice and echo McMurdo’s longing for the return of CG to fight The Rangers cause, Celtic will know what they want to get out of this and whether making noises will help that objective.

It would be great if they feel they could share that objective but perhaps the fear that by making it public those hostile to the club will use any utterences to thwart that objective.

So we get back to the old hobby horse of trust. I would say that over the past few years Celtic have done enough to be trusted a little longer. What is coming out will sweep the last remnants of a failed football governance culture away without Celtic lifting a finger in public.

Patience.

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easyJamboPosted on11:14 pm - Jun 13, 2013


the taxman cometh says: June 13, 2013 at 6:00 pm

I see that 785,740 RIFC bought at 50p each, Has Kieran bought in?

Who cashed out?
———————————————-
My guess is that these are the shares that Green had agreed to transfer to Laxley Partners. The lock-in restriction on Green my have been relaxed, with the agreement of Cenkos, following Green’s departure from the club.

Green is quoted as having held either 5,000,200 or 5,071,629 shares. The difference of 71,429 equates to £50,000 of shares at 70p. It is the same number of extra shares that were allocated to McCoist, Smith, Murray, Stockbridge following the IPO, so it may have represented a bonus issue following the “success” of the IPO.

Why is the 71,429 significant. Well the number of shares promised to Laxley was 714,285. Add the 71,429 and you get 785,714. The number of shares sold today at 50p was 785,740 which is close enough to suggest to me that Cenkos authorised the sale of the pre-IPO promised shares plus the bonus shares held by Green.

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Correction Taxman Cometh:
785,740 RIFC Sold not bought

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=rangers_int

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NawlitePosted on11:15 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Auldheid says:

June 13, 2013 at 11:05 pm

What is coming out will sweep the last remnants of a failed football governance culture away without Celtic lifting a finger in public.
——————————————————————————————————————————————–
Will it, though? I wish for the same and agree CFC shouldn’t speak out on their own, but what has happened to date to give you confidence that things will change?

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easyJamboPosted on11:15 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Ignore the extraneous lines at the end of my last post 🙁

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AuldheidPosted on11:23 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Neepheid

The risk in your strategy is that Celtic become the story and not The SFA or The Rangers.

I think Celtic are more than aware of the deficiencies in the way our game is being run, but are constrained by being one vote amongst many in a constituency where decisions might be taken on tribal rather than sound business grounds.
When you see how what looked like stonewall penalty decisions by the FTT and LNS are turned down in spite of slow motion replays showing the equivalent of the player not only handling the ball, he caught it and sprinted upfield with it in hands to score against us with the goal being given to the opposition, you can understand that what might look to us as a stonewall case to us is treated with much less certainty by Celtic.

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hampdenhorrorshowPosted on11:25 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Celtic’s board are not detached from the feeling shown by many of the clubs fans regarding the SFA and Campbell Ogilvie but I cannot see what Peter Lawwell or anyone else at the club can really do – there would be attacks on Celtic fans left right and centre if Lawwell was to kick up about the state of affairs.

And these attacks would be fuelled by our rotten-to-the-core MsM too.

This is the horrid reality of inner-city rivalry in Glasgow and anyone that honestly reckons CFC should be the sole voice against our filthy corrupt football system must be either having a laugh or completely ignorant of Glasgow and surrounding areas.

CFC silence does not mean complicity – this is a very delicate matter for CFC and i’m sure Lawwell et-al know fine well how much the club has lost thanks to the endless list of scammers from Ibrox and Hampden – but making a song and dance will only equate to violence, this is the reality.

We have to gather opinion and action from all clubs and fans and (oh dear..here I go again..) boycott that national stadium for starters, for years Hampden has been home to corruption, lies, deceit and favouritism for their establishment club. Jorge Cadette transfer anyone?? That matter alone showed the nation exactly what they are all about – unsurprisingly, the MsM turned on Fergus McCann afterwards, this despite Jim Farry leaving in utter shame and disgrace. There were endless MsM articles about how the SFA (and everyone else..) had lost such a great man – and it’s all the fault of some meddling wee Canadian man with a chip on his shoulder..etc..etc…with an axe to grind and a plethora of other absolute nonsense.

Cue the MsM character assasination of Fergus McCann which continued until the day he left Celtic.

Now – Can you imagine what our rancid MsM would do if Peter Lawwell were to actually call things as they are?? Their ‘paramiltary wing’ via the likes of Leggatt have spent the best part of 5 years vilifying Peter Lawwell as it is – and all because he is good at his job and good for CFC, nothing else, just that reason alone. Thanks to Charlotte, we now know what the MsM think of Leggat but they also know his appeal and influence amongst those with negative IQ’s.

This is a dirty and corrupt country. Right from the football system right, the MsM and right up to the judiciary system and I do not buy for a minute LNS wasn’t looking out for the establishment team – and it’s reincarnate – what, do you really think such a person in such a position is alien to such corruption?? Get real.

If we really want change, we have to do it ourselves and we do that by not giving those crooks in governance another penny. Boycott Hampden!

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john clarkePosted on11:25 pm - Jun 13, 2013


easyJambo says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm
‘… If a deal is done then there is just a glimmer of hope that the fans will get together with a common purpose and see the club through what will be a turbulent season in any event…’
—–
eJ,
It is a matter of some regret that the wrong-doings of the Scottish Football establishment in their traditional , knee-jerk need to protect one club above any other consideration , including any notion of sporting integrity, have taken up most of the attention of this blog.
It has aye been my contention that , by and large, the ills of Scottish Football stem from a deeply ingrained SFA culture.
A culture which , in effect, has taken it for granted that the ‘we arra peepul’ club must, of necessity, be given pole position-rightly or wrongly.
It is (in my opinion) this cultural background that not only has brought about the greatest crisis in Scottish Football since the ‘flag’ incident, but has caused the focus on that crisis to cause the SFA virtually to ignore what is happening to other essential parts of the Scottish game.
If the SFA had taken a fraction of the interest in HMFC as they have historically done in the affairs of a now dead club, they might now have been able to have been of positive assistance.
Even now, they might be expected to encourage the SPL to release, now, the monies that HMFC appear to be ‘due’ in August.
They might now be trying to persuade the SPL to help, by affording loans at easy rates of interest, to a fellow ‘community’ club, to try to ensure survival.
No sign of that happening.

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TroyblainPosted on11:33 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Celtic have a powerful voice, yet they have chose to keep silent. The Celtic board await newgers with their arms open.

Celtic could have made a stance but instead decided to dance to COs tune.

I have watched and supported Celtic for 35 years.I am growing tired of them propping up the SFA and backing TRFC pretending it is RFC. If the season starts with Celtic saying nothing, they will no longer be my beloved club.

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john clarkePosted on11:35 pm - Jun 13, 2013


neepheid says:
June 13, 2013 at 10:52 pm
‘…All Celtic had to do was nominate an alternative candidate,..’
—-
Fair enough. But the same goes for every other club, ffs!
Why do you think Celtic had any special duty to do so?
Over and above any other SFA member?

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AuldheidPosted on11:35 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Martybhoy
I have taken a keen interest in the 2011 UEFA licence issue but even after having a good look at what CF has leaked and whilst admitedly lacking one key piece of evidence, I can see how a case could be made that technically the licence was indeed issued according to the rules.

I personally do not think it was but without that key evidence and mindful of how interpretation of rules always favours SFA/ The Rangers I can see a possible technicality that explains how it was done whilst Im still 90% convinced skullduggery is afoot.

Until that becomes 100% Celtic can say nothing which does not mean to say they are not be looking for the missing piece.

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ecobhoyPosted on11:44 pm - Jun 13, 2013


I’m beginning to wonder whether this Blog is being targeted by a PR effort designed to deflect us from what is actually happening in Scottish Football.

Celtic, like every other Scottish Football club, is a business and if it doesn’t conduct that business professionally then it will end–up in the same position as Rangers and Hearts and others. That is the bottom line. Unlike most other clubs Celtic has added legal responsibilities to its shareholders because it is a publicly listed company.

At this moment in time the Celtic management, in difficult economic conditions, still appear to be doing a good job in keeping the club healthy in financial terms and as long as they do I will support them. And sometimes support is blind in the sense that important decisions taken by a Board can’t be up for open discussion. There are mechanisms at Celtic for raising these issues and these are the ones that should be pursued.

However, Celtic is not the moral guardian of Scottish Football. It has to operate within the flawed rules that govern the sport and the unfit for purpose hierarchy of suits.

I truly believe some posters are getting a bit carried away in thinking they can actually tell a major business how it should be running its affairs especially when it is a successful business. I like a couple of others posters have suggested positive directions we can move in as a blog to address the deep-rooted problems that face Scottish football but unfortunately it will take years of hard work to even start to make any real progress.

However, some think it can be done by instant revolution and that Celtic should be in the Vanguard of that movement. That’s up to them but I am fully aware of all the historical reasons as to why Celtic should show caution and be circumspect. Anyone who has been in any way involved with what has been exposed in the last few years must surely have have some awareness of the power of the Scottish Establishment and where its bias lies. I have been involved for a helluva lot longer and know the dangers that exist.

As to calls for Lawwell to resign well that is just infantile – he doesn’t decide Celtic Policy. It’s the Celtic Board that decides that and Lawwell carries out that policy. If he didn’t he wouldn’t be resigning he would be sacked.

If some Celtic supporters no longer wish to be associated with the club that is their decision but as an ordinary fan with no political axe to grind I will remain as a supporter of my club first and foremost but will also try to do what I can to improve the governance of Scottish Football as a whole whenever I see a way to do so. One thing I will not do is damage my club and reduce its ability to be a standard bearer both for Scottish Football and how a club should be run. Sometimes leading by example is the best way or proving a point.

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TroyblainPosted on11:50 pm - Jun 13, 2013


I used to think Celtic were a football club, but you are right its business, business, yawn, business, not sport.

football used to be about scoring goals, it used to be simple, now rules do not matter, all that matters according to ecobhoy is business, business, business, how boring.

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GazPosted on11:52 pm - Jun 13, 2013


I find it intriguing that this forum really has become a place to have a pop at Celtic.

With so much going on in Scottish football how did that happen.

What is it that Celtic are being pilloried for, but everyone else seems to be exempt from. What have Celtic done, or failed to do, that is beyond what people expect from every other club in Scottish football.

I find this genuinely interesting.

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AuldheidPosted on11:56 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Nawlite
Well so far the predictions were Rangers would get back into the SPL.
That they would get a leg up through restructuring.
That a contributing factor has been too many organisations looking after their own narrow agenda.
The first and second have not happened because of resistance.
The third as a result of their being too many crooks I mean cooks has reduced the number of bodies to two making checks and balances easier to introduce

Also to go back to the UEFA licence issue in spite of what I said about a technical justification being possible the way Rangers reacted to Stewart Regan’s draft in Dec 2011 suggests they have something to hide.

Oh one last thing on The Rangers support. The book Bigotry Football and Scotland due out this month contains a chapter by a Rangers supporter that I found encouraging that whilst both sides have nutters there is enough decency across the middle spectrum to give hope for the future.

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ecobhoyPosted on11:59 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Auldheid says:
June 13, 2013 at 11:35 pm

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Martybhoy
I have taken a keen interest in the 2011 UEFA licence issue but even after having a good look at what CF has leaked and whilst admitedly lacking one key piece of evidence, I can see how a case could be made that technically the licence was indeed issued according to the rules.

I personally do not think it was but without that key evidence and mindful of how interpretation of rules always favours SFA/ The Rangers I can see a possible technicality that explains how it was done whilst Im still 90% convinced skullduggery is afoot.

Until that becomes 100% Celtic can say nothing which does not mean to say they are not be looking for the missing piece.
==========================================================
It’s the same with the LNS Decision which apparently Celtic should have opposed and questioned. There is absolutely no locus to attack the decision on the evidence presented to LNS. I can accept people might not like the decision and I am sure that may well be the case at Celtic Park.

But it would be ludicrous for Celtic to attack the decision without solid legal grounds and they don’t exist. Suddenly Celtic have to be responsible for policing Scottish Football. I am afraid that their main focus this year will be in a achieving a good European run, winning the League and whatever other silverware will be on offer in the new set-up. These are the priorities for probably at least 95% of Celtic fans.

Yea some of us might have additional priorities but we have to recognise just how limited our resources actually are and to do more in terms or ‘cleansing’ Scottish Football we must build fan awareness of what is happening in Scottish Football and produce well-researched information and arguments to build that knowledge base for fans to argue withing their own clubs.

That is how we will move forward and attempts to damage Celtic, for whatever reason, will hinder and possibly destroy any chance of bringing more democracy and transparency into Scottish Football.

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dedeideoprofundisPosted on11:59 pm - Jun 13, 2013


Gaz says:
June 13, 2013 at 11:52 pm
0 0 Rate This

I find it intriguing that this forum really has become a place to have a pop at Celtic.

With so much going on in Scottish football how did that happen
======================================================

It has happened before and the same arguments and counter arguments were put forward, I can’t remember the cause?, reason? at that time but those in the proLawell camp were exonerated eventually.

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ecobhoyPosted on12:10 am - Jun 14, 2013


Troyblain says:
June 13, 2013 at 11:50 pm
I used to think Celtic were a football club, but you are right its business, business, yawn, business, not sport.
football used to be about scoring goals, it used to be simple, now rules do not matter, all that matters according to ecobhoy is business, business, business, how boring.
=================================================================
Anyone who was involved with Celtic when it came within hours of financial death truly learnt that unless the ‘business’ is taken care of then you don’t have a football club.

I have watched some wonderful exciting football played by Celtic in my life and it’s been about scoring goals and seldom boring.

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newtzPosted on12:11 am - Jun 14, 2013


ecobhoy says:
June 13, 2013 at 11:44 pm
‘I’m beginning to wonder whether this Blog is being targeted by a PR effort designed to deflect us..’
———————————————————————————————————————————-
IA account on RM …. !

JI …. ?

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TSFMPosted on12:11 am - Jun 14, 2013


Had to remove a couple of posts from people throwing insults and accusations around. The blog is most definitely NOT being used as a PR tool spinning against Celtic, and it is clinically paranoid to imagine that is the case given the main focus of the blog.

Accusations of trolling are also a poor substitute for debate, as is condescension. The level of debate whenever this particular thread is brought up quickly sinks to the juvenile. Please either engage in the arguments respectfully or not at all.

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newtzPosted on12:13 am - Jun 14, 2013


Ooops I guess you missed mine by secs ….
Your point TSFM is a very good one and it did cross my mind before poting …. begone with it !

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ecobhoyPosted on12:17 am - Jun 14, 2013


martybhoy says:
June 14, 2013 at 12:00 am
Ecobhoy if Celtic were UN’ healthy in financial terms’ would you still support them?
Just asking like.
==============================================================

Is that the level of debate that we have reached? I will let my record of posts speak for me not just on my support for Celtic but for improving Scottish Football.

As I have stated in another response – unhealthy clubs in a financial sense have a tendency to go bust and when that happens sometimes they don’t come back and there is nothing left to support.

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Lord WobblyPosted on12:19 am - Jun 14, 2013


Loving the return of the big posting box TSFM. Many thanks. Hopefully I’ll think of something sufficiently grand with which to fill it.

PS Peter Lawwell is doing an absolutely superb job at the Club.

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GazPosted on12:23 am - Jun 14, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
June 14, 2013 at 12:19 am

I’m sure Celtic will really miss the money they invest in the club on an ongoing basis.

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EKBhoyPosted on12:28 am - Jun 14, 2013


Martybhoy

You do not invest in a football club to make money, the clubs finances are structured in a way to forgoe profits and re-invest. I suggest in the kindest terms to re-evaluate your position , as frankly it seems somewhat ‘red-top’ based.

Catch up on cqn at a later date but our board are doing a fabulous job , it’s so obvious it’s difficult to see any merit in your contrary opinion.

I believe it has been a good couple of days for professional football , the SFA and Rangers are being marginalised with stricter financial rules in place to stop the financial jiggerry pokkery and big Pete not even been on the telly, I’d shake his hand and give him a bonus

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john clarkePosted on12:41 am - Jun 14, 2013


Lord Wobbly says:
June 14, 2013 at 12:19 am
‘ Loving the return of the big posting box TSFM. Many thanks. Hopefully I’ll think of something sufficiently grand with which to fill it.
PS Peter Lawwell is doing an absolutely superb job at the Club.’
——-
My Lord, there can be , this evening ( or morning or whatever), nothing more grand than your endorsement of Peter Lawwell.

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wottpiPosted on12:49 am - Jun 14, 2013


Been very busy over the last few days so apologies if I have missed the thrust of recent posts However I note that Celtic’s silence and apparent lack of protest to CO’s re-election is being commented on.

When the oldco when down the pan I got my fair amount of TD’s for suggesting, with others, that Celtic would miss them most.

While we know what many Celtic fans want and believe to be the ethos behind their club the fact remains that, like the blue half of Glasgow, they are a business run by people who are answerable to people – and these people are not the fans.

If I recall rightly Sevcovians paid 5m for shares at 70p thus making them the largest ‘shareholder’ at 7.1m shares. Yet the club was being run by Green, with circa 5m shares and now others with even less of a stake are trying to gain control. As far as I can see Celtic are no different, the fans are not calling the shots.

No, forget all the romamce, those who run Celtic know (and it has been reinforced by the T’ Rangers debacle) that there is no place for them in the EPL or leagues below. Despite getting to the last 16 they are still small beer in European terms and Euro leagues are still a bit away.

Nope they are stuck where they are and with the guarentee of Euro football for the next few years why rock the boat? The fans may like the idea but those in charge see no advantage in being a thron in the side of Scottish Football and it is my guess they are looking forward to the return of ‘Old Firm’ games.

Those expecting Celtic to become the rebels they would like them to be will have to wait a very very long time.

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EKBhoyPosted on12:51 am - Jun 14, 2013


Busy day at work and after responding to the anti Celtic board brigade , just catching up with the position at Hearts . I maybe in a small majority of the Celtic fans but I always really looked forward to the games with Hearts and although they have been subject to some crackers behaviour from Vlad and his cohorts , it seems to me that Hearts club and fans are victims here and deserve help and support which I believe the football authorities are providing.

Other than the looney that attacked NL , there were a boisterous rival , made for a good game. I suspect they will be dealt with leniently in terms of the rules, perhaps the upside of vague rules , written really when none of this financial chaos was ever envisaged.

Still Dundee united is still my favourite other Scottish team , ball on the deck , dodgy defence ,,parallels with another team ?

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EKBhoyPosted on12:59 am - Jun 14, 2013


Martybhoy

We will need to call quits then.

I suspect you are over-focusing on a specific view and when that happens there is always blame. I maybe as well !!!

Still , you and the rest of guys not endeared by the board will be keeping them on their toes, again when you think of the bigger picture who as a group does not indulge in that behaviour.

So the fact that we are just about straining politeness about CFC keeps the club healthy… Glad I ended on a cheerie note. .. let’s call it a draw!

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hampdenhorrorshowPosted on1:48 am - Jun 14, 2013


Troyblain says:

June 13, 2013 at 11:33 pm
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
A Celtic fan was murdered walking home from a matche not so long ago. It might be mental but the reality is there are morons out there that would act upon senseless MsM / Leggat propaganda – further fuelling their sheer hatred into physical voilence, that is how things work in the real world and Peter Lawwell and CFC are to be commended for the way they have played this – not condemned.

If you have been a fan for so long, surely you must appreciate this? Have you ever walked into the city centre after a home match??

The problem we face can only – sensibly and safely – be addressed by acting as a collective of fans, from all clubs, against the actual establishment, more specificaly, Campbell Ogilvie. This is the main guy, the head of the wicker man maniacs and the one who pulls the strings. He is too. Well Mr Ogilvie, I will never set foot in you’re stadium whilst you and you’re likes continue to inhabit the place and I sincerely hope many others feel the same.

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CastofThousandsPosted on1:59 am - Jun 14, 2013


twopanda says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:54 pm

Enjoy – marvellous just marvellous 😉

http://www.supporters-direct.org/homepage/what-we-do/scotland
————-

Twopanda, do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reaction?

The site does look a bit lightweight but I think the fans parliament tab is the right idea. It may be too sterile a forum to attract a quorum of supporters club representatives but it is a neutral ground. Perhaps the supporters clubs could nominate an enthusiatic individual to engage to see if they can get a debate going.

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Danish PastryPosted on5:56 am - Jun 14, 2013


easyJambo says:
June 13, 2013 at 9:55 pm
17 1 Rate This
—————
Despeate times easyJambo. Hasn’t the club posted a financial plan with the SPL / SFA for the coming year?

I can understand the fans not wanting post another penny in the current situation. Waiting for any potential buyer though opens up the possibility of more vultures setting up shop in a Scottish club. So no fans consortium?

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Exiled CeltPosted on6:04 am - Jun 14, 2013


neepheid says:

June 13, 2013 at 9:57 pm
ohn clarke says:
June 13, 2013 at 7:54 pm

When one is dealing with vipers, one gives them no chance of striking.

++++++++++++
Wise words- so why are Celtic complicit in leaving Ogilvie in post, a viper who will most certainly strike them when the moment is right?
******

Gents – maybe its better to have CO there since he is being excused from any decisions being made or ongoing discussions since he is apparently “heavily conflicted” according to his boss. He cannot allegedly use his finest administrator in the world skills where it involves Sevco, so is unable to influence any decisions – not even behind the scenes. If he is removed, it could be well be worse as we could have a staunch pro-Sevco SFA chairman helping to formulate decisions and be active in lobbying everyone………

Warning – heavy dose of sarcasm was involved in the making of this retort – as we suspected that was nonsense and now know he is not being excused as per CF leaks…….

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Danish PastryPosted on6:33 am - Jun 14, 2013


These tweets still seem very much like evidence in the case of Whyte v The Rest of the World XI
———-
@CharlotteFakes
Is this the first ever meeting between Paul Clark, David Whitehouse and Craig Whyte re Project Charlotte June 2011?
i.imgur.com/aEV1Zeb.jpg
2:06am – 14 Jun 13

@CharlotteFakes
A reminder of the initial Craig payment and text messages to Imran c/o his mother.
i.imgur.com/EFCIYG4.jpg
and
i.imgur.com/kpENcW2.jpg
10:41pm – 13 Jun 13

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LoamfeetPosted on6:43 am - Jun 14, 2013


I do not buy this idea that Celtic are somehow powerful enough to single-handedly change the course of Scottish football. It is another form of the paranoid Lawwell-as-puppet-master stuff we get from Graham. Of course Celtic are a significant presence, but there have been plenty of times Celtic have been accused of arrogance for throwing their weight around a bit. You can bet that, if Celtic had stepped in and somehow managed to influence events, a howl of derision would have been let loose: Celtic are influencing events! We can’t have it both ways.

Appealing for Celtic to save us is just the same as the “so-and-so should out his haun in his pocket” stuff that some fans come out with. It is lazy thinking. If we want better governance and a better way forward then it has to start in every club around the country. I think we are on the right track: fans have found a voice and are challenging their clubs, demanding transparency, buying shares, asking questions. This Celtic stuff is a distraction.

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jonnyodPosted on7:18 am - Jun 14, 2013


Re Celtic carrying the flag for a anti corruption ,I think it’s a waste of time in Scotland after the decisions we have witnessed in the past 18 months
IMO the corruption is so emdemic that any one club trying would be akin to pashing in the wind .
Celtic and any other clubs (tribute act excluded ) only chance is that avenues open up to leagues outwith Scotland .
I never thought my club seeking a way into the money pit of the EPL was a good idea at all but from what I have witnessed here ,anywhere would be better .
Sad but true

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briggsbhoyPosted on7:28 am - Jun 14, 2013


I agree with Aulheid that if Celtic speak out at this point they will become the story and take focus off elsewhere. You only need to at the emails that came from Media house to recognise that they wanted desperately for Celtic to become the story to deflect from them.

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schottie59Posted on7:50 am - Jun 14, 2013


CRO is a flightless duck ,half drowning in a barrel of sick which he and the brethren put together,,,,he is where he is for a good reason .He and his and there club are doomed .They know it and we all know it.

And this Summer will be fun . Braw !

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