Good Evening.
As we ponder the historic vote to create a new Governing body to oversee Scottish League football, I cannot help but wonder what brilliant minds will be employed in the drawing up of its constitution, rules, memorandum and articles of association?
Clearly, Messrs Doncaster, Longmuir and even Mr Regan as the CEO of the SFA will be spending many hours with those dreaded folk known simply as “ The Lawyers” in an attempt to get the whole thing up and running and written down in the course of a few short weeks.
In truth, that scares me.
It scares me because legal documentation written up in a hurry or in a rush is seldom perfect and often needs amendment—especially when the errors start to show! The old adage of beware of the busy fool sadly applies.
It also scares me because the existing rules under which the game is governed are not, in my humble opinion, particularly well written and seem to differ in certain material respects from those of UEFA. Even then, adopting the wording and the approach of other bodies is not necessarily the way to go.
I am all in favour of some original thought– and that most precious and unusual of commodities known as common sense and plain English.
Further, the various licensing and compliance rules are clearly in need of an overhaul as they have of late produced what can only be best described as a lack of clarity when studied for the purposes of interpretation. Either that or those doing the studying and interpreting are afflicted with what might be described as tortuous or even tortured legal and administrative minds.
If it is not by now clear that the notion of self-certification on financial and other essential disclosure criteria necessary to obtain a footballing licence (whether European or domestic) is a total non-starter — then those in charge of the game are truly bonkers.
Whilst no governing body can wholly control the actions of a member club, or those who run a club, surely provisions can be inserted into any constitution or set of rules that allows and brings about greater vigilance and scrutiny than we have at present—all of course designed to do nothing other than alert the authorities as early as possible if matters are not being conducted properly or fairly.
However, the main change that would make a difference to most of the folk involved in the Scottish game – namely the fans— would be to have the new rules incorporate a measure which allowed football fans themselves to be represented on any executive or committee.
Clearly, this would be a somewhat revolutionary step and would be fought against tooth and nail by some for no reason other than that it has simply not been done before—especially as the league body is there to regulate the affairs of a number of limited companies all of whom have shareholders to account to and the clubs themselves would presumably be the shareholders in the new SPFL Ltd.
Then again to my knowledge Neil Doncaster is not a shareholder in The SPL ltd– is he?
I can hear the argument that a fan representative on a league body might not be impartial, might be unprofessional, might be biased, might lack knowledge or experience, and have their own agenda and so on—just like many chairmen and chief executive officers who already sit on the committees of the existing league bodies.
Remember too that the SFA until relatively recently had disciplinary committees made up almost exclusively of referees. I don’t think anyone would argue that the widening of the make up of that committee has been a backward step.
However, we already have fan representation at clubs like St Mirren and Motherwell, and of course there has been an established Tartan Army body for some time now. Clubs other than the two mentioned above have mechanisms whereby they communicate and consult with fans, although they stop short of full fan participation– very often for supposedly insurmountable legal reasons.
As often as not, the fans want a say in the running of their club, but also want to be able to make representations to the governing bodies via their club.
So why not include the fans directly in the new set up for governing the league?
Any fan representative could be someone proposed by a properly registered fan body such as through official supporters clubs, or could be seconded by the clubs acting in concert with their supporters clubs.
Perhaps a committee of fan representatives could be created, with such a committee having a representative on the various committees of the new league body.
In this way, there would be a fan who could report back to the fan committee and who could represent the interests of the ordinary fan in the street in any of the committees. Equally such a committee of fans could ensure that any behind the scenes discussions on any issue were properly reported, openly discussed, and made public with no fear of hidden agendas, secret meetings, and secret collusive agreements and so forth.
Is any of that unreasonable? Surely many companies consider the views of their biggest customer? This idea is no different.
Surely such a situation would go some way towards establishing some badly needed trust between the governing bodies and the fans themselves?
If necessary, I would not even object to the fan representatives being excluded from having a right to vote on certain matters—as long as they had a full right of audience and a full right of access to all discussions and relative papers which affect the running of the game.
In this way at least there would be openness and transparency.
In short, it would be a move towards what is quaintly referred to as Democracy.
Perhaps, those who run the game at present should consider the life and times of the late great Alexander Hamilton- one of the founding fathers of the United States of America and who played a significant role in helping write the constitution of that country.
Hamilton was a decent and brilliant man in many ways—but he was dead set against Democracy and the liberation of rights for the masses. In fact, he stated that the best that can be hoped for the mass populace is that they be properly armed with a gun and so able to protect themselves against injustice!
Sadly, Hamilton became embroiled in a bitter dispute with the then Vice President of the nation Aaron Burr in July 1804. Hamilton had used his influence and ensured that Burr lost the election to become Governor of New York and had made some withering attacks on the Vice President’s character.
When he refused to apologise, the Vice President took a whacky notion and challenged him to a duel! Even more whacky is the fact that Hamilton accepted the challenge and so the contest took place at Weehawken New Jersey on the morning of 11th July 1804.
The night before, Hamilton wrote a letter which heavily suggested that he would contrive to miss Burr with his shot, and indeed when the pistols fired Hamilton’s bullet struck a branch immediately above Burr’s head.
However, he did not follow the proper procedure for duelling which required a warning from the duellist that they are going to throw their shot away. Hamilton gave no such indication despite the terms of his letter and despite his shot clearly missing his opponent.
Burr however fired and hit Hamilton in the lower abdomen with the result that the former secretary to the treasury and founding father of the constitution died at 2pm on the twelfth of July.
The incident ruined Burr’s career (whilst duelling was still technically legal in New jersey, it had already been outlawed in various other states).
In any event, in Hamilton’s time full and open democracy in the United States of America would have met with many cries of outrage and bitter opposition. Yet, today, the descendants of slaves and everyone from all social standings, all ethnic minorities and every social background has the constitutional right to vote and seek entry to corridors of power.
In that light, is it really asking too much to allow football fans to have a say and a presence in the running of a game they pay so much to support?
North rd says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:37 pm
“It’s still MY club, and will be my Grandsons club also.”
————————
An admirable sentiment North Rd and one which almost all would share. However the current incarnation of the club/company debate was triggered by BBC’s decision to ignore the LNS enquiry ruling on this point when responding to two viewers complaints. The BBC decision was eminently sensible as the ensuing discussion has illustrated. Anything that is so contentious and potentially complex requires clarification by the major broadcaster. They’d never finish the news if they had to insert all the possible provisios.
BBC said they would distinguish between old Rangers and new Rangers in off field contexts. How this can be made into a controversy is beyond pedantry.
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:08 pm
1 0 Rate This
… How quickly did the spivs think they were going to go to market and float and go? Seems to me they might have been thinking a lot earlier than it actually happened meaning that the wages saved on ‘ordinary’ workers wouldn’t be seen as significant.
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It certainly lends credence to the theory that the whole thing was a pre-planned strategy to dump the crippling debt, move on quickly, still in the SPL, and with most of the infrastructure intact. The bank were to get their cash while the taxman could take a hike. No sporting advantage, obviously.
Sport
Ally McCoist told more players must go
Rangers boss told Ibrox books must be kept balanced
Tuesday 02 July 2013 Printable Email
Scottish football: Rangers boss Ally McCoist has been warned that further player departures could be necessary before he can add to his squad.
Despite the departures of defensive duo Carlos Bocanegra and Dorin Goian, Ibrox interim chief executive Craig Mather indicated today that more outgoings were likely.
Goalkeeper Neil Alexander looks set to leave the Light Blues along with striker Kane Hemmings and Mather told RangersTV that more will have to go before McCoist can add to the seven players he has recruited so far.
“More of the squad could be moving on. There’s potential for that, I’m not going to sit here and hide it,” Mather said.
“Ally has made no secret of the fact he’d like to make one or two more signings if possible and in principle I have no problem with that.
“We do have to balance the books though and look at it accordingly.
“It would be good for the stability of the club if we can get a couple more moved on as well.”
If you appreciated this article then please consider donating to the Morning Star’s Fighting Fund to ensure we can keep developing your paper.
Donate to the Fighting Fund here
neepheid says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:19 pm
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:33 pm
I was simply stating my opinion that it would have been a mistake if the SFL had decided against allowing them into SFL3 and thus effectively expelling them from Scottish Football.
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I would suggest that you raise it on the new club/company thread that you requested and which TSFM has agreed to 🙂
andy says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharlotteFakes 59s
Sir David Murray – A very generous man it seems.Why would anyone want to pay NI contributions upon receiving a gift?
http://i.imgur.com/dLNnGYo.jpg
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/RANGERS+FURY+AT+pounds+150k+BUNG+SLUR%3B+EXCLUSIVE+Bain+house+deal…-a0147029965
150k seems to be a popular number
——————————————————————————————
Cost of a night out !
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/231689-family-in-court-over-drugs-found-growing-near-celtic-neil-lennons-home/
FFS…typical mms
Linking Neil Lennon to a story about drugs
. . . Neither the property or the drugs have got anything to do with Neil Lennon, but the mms, manage to link him in there anyway !!!
The concept of a club carrying a spiritual body, is not particularly controversial to most of us. It is, after all, what makes us football fans – as opposed to mere customers. And while there is no single view of what a club means to the people who support it, the notion that the spiritual entity is the principal embodiment of a club is relatively new to me.
I have friends and family who have had season tickets at Ibrox for many years. Some of them are quite comfortable talking (to me) about the old club and the new club. Others cannot recognise the distinction.
What is common between both standpoints is the belief that the same spiritual element exists in Rangers of either guise. All will talk about Rangers as a continuing entity. My interpretation is that they are all really talking about Rangers as a brand as opposed to Rangers as a “club”.
Those who have kept to the traditional notion of a club will readily acknowledge that the SPL & SFA bent over backwards to keep “Rangers” in the top tier of Scottish football. The general feeling is that both bodies were simply inept in their handling of the situation. Of course there is frustration that Rangers are not playing in the SPL and European competitions; but there is no sense of the betrayal and resentment that is the hallmark of Charles Green’s rhetoric.
The smaller number who are religiously fixed on “same club” theology have conflated that very personal view ( their club is a spiritual entity that exists outside its corporate shell) with the specific meaning that a club is given in various articles and rules. The nonsense [my words] that has come from the SPL – principally from Neil Doncaster; but later repeated by the LNS Commission, has simply added to the gross outrage that they feel.
My participation in this debate has always been on the basis that the rules & articles had been stretched to the limit (and beyond) in a vain attempt to “keep” Rangers in the SPL. As part of the necessary steps to achieve this commercial objective, was a media blitz that sought to convince us that the regulations allowed us to come to a radically different interpretation for a club than what had previously been generally accepted.
The support of this commercial imperative has contributed a great deal towards the damaging schism that has opened up between some fans of Rangers and just about everyone else.
Personal views in support of “same club”, so often expressed here, instinctively appear somewhat unusual for non-Rangers fans. Actually, I have to admit, I do not personally know any Scottish football fan – who is not a Rangers fan – that would agree with that personal assessment. That said, I have no desire to engage with anyone in relation to the personal views they have of their own club. It does not seem relevant or helpful to this blog to continually respond to (mainly!) objective points regarding the analysis of articles & rules with such unrelated, subjective and diversionary opinion.
I am more than happy to engage with anyone who wishes to talk about the the interpretation of any relevant regulation; but I do not generally add comment to subjective analysis. I have perhaps done more so in this comment that I had intended. Can we just agree to disagree on personal theology and (if/when the subject of club/company comes back around) stick to the analysis of the actions (or inactions) of our officials in relation to the regulations as they are written.
andy says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:24 pm
“150k seems to be a popular number”
————————
The newspaper article link didn’t work but I think I’ve seen it previously. Might be worth checking the 31 May 2009 date against the timescales in the article.
@castifthousands, see if this works:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/RANGERS+FURY+AT+pounds+150k+BUNG+SLUR%3B+EXCLUSIVE+Bain+house+deal…-a0147029965
It didn’t 🙁
The reply from @ManorMoose in CF’s timeline has a working link.
@castifthousands
ecobhoys 6.31 post works
Danish Pastry says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:41 pm
“The reply from @ManorMoose in CF’s timeline has a working link.”
—————————-
Got it. Thanks Danish. Date in the article is August 2004 so this appears to be a different £150,000.
North rd says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:45 pm
5 8 Rate This
paulmac2 says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:42 pm
He tells it how HE sees it, Honest, not with a bitterness against another Fan.
…………………………….
Not sure how his particular view makes him more or less decent than any other Celtic fan? but if that is how you see the distinction then fair enough..
cobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 3:33 pm
3 3 Rate This
freudian slip 2nd par – top whack should be £20 million
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 3:36 pm
3 3 Rate This
Sorry about this but consequential error in 3rd par where it’s not £15.5 million left but £17.5 million
********************************************************
Wit skool did you go tae?
Castofthousands says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:24 pm
I understand your comments as stated, all I am trying to post is that I know where Ecobhoy is coming from. No REAL Football fan will ever admit they have NO team to follow, when they have followed their team for over 40 years and still go with their Grandson to watch Football. Good times/ Bad times will come and go, but a fans love for their team is much more than some of the politics you get on message boards.
I believe every TRUE Football fan would not wish any club to fall into difficult times, Auldheid’s posts on Fair Financial Play is what the SFA should be forcing through as there number 1 priority IMO.
Ps….I also hope the idiots at the SFA don’t hammer HMFC with a financial penalty.
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/4378-traynor-grills-mccoist?
So AM denies the existence of sevco…and their name change and corporate age
Claiming that ‘the rangers’ are 141 !!
Also prob having a ‘go’ (staged) at traynor, as traynor we know did tell ONE truth
. . . That ‘rangers’ DIED.
nawlite says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:14 pm
”..I know JC can argue for himself, Eco, but he wasn’t putting words in your mouth…’
——–
Thank you, Nawlite.
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:43 pm
paulmac2 says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:38 pm
Your statement is not only bizarre in its reasoning…but morally unacceptable…
=================================================================
As to bizarre statements well I suppose I can be as guilty of that as many of my fellow posters on here – however I have no need to defend my morality and will not engage with a poster who questions it.
……………………………..
I have every right to question your belief it is perfectly acceptable to stiff various people for 30 to 110 million pounds….but I also accept why you may find that a difficult moral position to defend and would rather look the other way and not engage!
North rd says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:50 pm
‘Ps….I also hope the idiots at the SFA don’t hammer HMFC with a financial penalty.’
——-
Or with expulsion, since perhaps they may not too financially important to matter! 🙂
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 4:01 pm
——————————————————————————————————————————-
I usually treat most oldco/newco rhetoric with more than a pinch of salt – but I know RFC died and the team now playing there are a replacement for the old, defunct, kaput and very much dead team that once played there since the late 19th century. You know as well as I do that RFC are indeed dead and all the pedantics and skewing of reason will never change what is actually fact.
Who cares what an Ibrox attendee relates the new team with the old. I don’t and the Sevco fans can rant and rave about all they like, as can others but it’s all just hot air, usually from the biggest of windbags too.
Now – without getting into personality conflict and thrown into moderation hell, I won’t go down the road of singling folk out but what I will say is that as a Celtic fan, I am pretty piss’ed off that my club, including my ST ££ and that of many other tens of thousands of fellow fans has been spent chasing a tax avoiding bunch of cheats – playing on a tilted table for more than 10 years and it cost Celtic millions in lost CL revenue alone.
I wont get back the money back, my fellow fans wont either and neither will Celtic. The same goes for other teams and fans but CFC certainly lost out more than anyone – so the liquidation of RFC was certainly welcomed in my house, in my pub(s) amongst my friends, my family and a lot of my colleagues too. Even my girlfriend was joyful that RFC were liquidated and she basically hates football and is from the east coast.
You see, although we wont get recompense for the years of cheating, most of us have got satisfaction that they at least got liquidated and their history and all the honours it included simply evaporated – whilst a bunch of spivs hastily got another entity up and running – almost as if no-one noticed – but we all did and how we have laughed since:)
Are people trying to convince themselves that RFC and Sevco are actually the same thing or are they trying to convince the rest of us too?? Whatever, the argument is pointless as RFC actually died and were liquidated and the same fate will happen with the Dead 5088’s too…anyways…it’s looking as though our favourite lady is digging out some (S)DM related stuff – oh dear – i wonder if Dave’s getting a bit hot under the collar…time for our old pal Jack to be paying the TSFM a visit me-thinks…
http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/231689-family-in-court-over-drugs-found-growing-near-celtic-neil-lennons-home/
That’s pretty nasty and disappointing from stv – really cheap
Test
“The administrators of Aldershot Town say they will be forced to liquidate the club on Thursday”.
Oh so it is the club who are liquidated then.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23149055
Aldershot Town in danger of liquidation on Thursday
The administrators of Aldershot Town say they will be forced to liquidate the club on Thursday unless creditors accept the terms of a consortium’s bid.
The consortium, led by Shahid Azeem, have raised more than £600,000 in an attempt to save the non-league outfit.
BBC Surrey understands three former directors are among creditors unable to accept the terms of the bid.
Town entered administration in May with debts of about £1m, five days after being relegated to the Conference.
“
Unless a deal is completed by Thursday this week, the prospects of saving the football club are slim as there is little or no cash left to meet ongoing trading and there are no other offers on the table
”
Joint statement by Aldershot’s administrators and Shahid Azeem’s consortium
Current and former players of the club are believed to have been offered less than 100% of what they are owed, with negotiations continuing via the Professional Footballers’ Association.
PFA deputy chief executive John Barnwell told BBC Surrey: “We’re looking at it, talking to players, and seeing how we can resolve it.”
Azeem’s consortium, which is being supported by Tony Knights and John Leppard, issued a joint statement with Quantuma Restructuring, Aldershot’s administrators, on Tuesday.
“Working with the administrators, the consortium had believed that they could take the club out administration this week,” the statement said.
“However, there are still some major hurdles which, if unresolved, will prevent the only bid proceeding.
“Primarily these hurdles revolve around creditors (both football and non-football) accepting compromises in order to reduce their debts to match the offer received.
“The administrators have made it very clear that unless a deal is completed by Thursday this week, the prospects of saving the football club are slim as there is little or no cash left to meet ongoing trading and there are no other offers on the table.
“In the event that the club fails and goes into liquidation, there will not be any dividend payment to creditors whatsoever.
“The next few days are critical in terms of the survival of the club and we urge all supporters and creditors to get behind the bid put forward by the consortium.
“Unless that bid proceeds, the club will stop trading and will enter into liquidation.”
jean7brodie says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:04 pm
Beware of false prophets.
==========================
Or in Rangers’ case, looking at their business plan, including year 2, beware of false profits.
Caveat Emptor says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:50 pm
Wit skool did you go tae?
================================
Obviously the wrong one 🙂
TSFM says:
July 2, 2013 at 3:48 pm
“I am persuaded that the repetitive stuff needs to be moved somewhere else. I will create a new New Club – Old Club thread when I get a chance.”
There has undoubtedly been much debate about the new club/old club issue, understandably so. Your decision to create a new, separate thread has itself sparked much debate, such that I am now wondering whether we’ll need a second, separate thread to discuss the pros and cons of having the first one. Of course this second separate thread is likely to generate considerable debate about the merits of having separate threads, so maybe we’ll need a third thread……
Alternatively, you could simply ask those who don’t like reading about the old club/new club issue to sacrifice three milliseconds of their lives by skipping past the offensive post.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Danish Pastry says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:57 pm
=======================================
it would not be unreasonable for HMRC to argue that the “gift” was only made by reason of his employment with Rangers and therefore subject to PAYE. There are cases of this nature to support that argument. I was going to say “subject to PAYE in the normal way” but remembered that PAYE was something that did not really bother oldco too much.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Aldershot Town are not financially important enough to be indispensable. They will therefore have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
I just had a chap at the door there from the boys in blue. Apparently the guy along from me kicked the absolute crap out of his dog and wanted to know if I was “in on it”. He said I must be, as I live in the same street. That I must have known he had a dog and was a possibility that this sort of thing could happen.I have now been reported to the RSPCA. I know , it’s my own fault and should know better.
hampdenhorrorshow says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:02 pm
7 0 Rate This
I usually treat most oldco/newco rhetoric with more than a pinch of salt …
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I’ve sprung over those posts for quite some time. The whole discussion definitely induces severe bouts of yawnaboutery 😀
Gaz says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:30 pm
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nowoldandgrumpy says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Aldershot Town are not financially important enough to be indispensable. They will therefore have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gaz
Much sadness in my work from the locals. they are indeed gone.
Done and dusted, conference in a blink of an eye.
Everything sold end off.
Different somehow.
TSFM says:
July 2, 2013 at 3:48 pm
=================================
I’ll tell you what really worries me. It is not Ecobhoy’s views on what is and is not a club and that Rangers are too important to disappear, and it is not the views of those who oppose him. It is whether the context of a hypothetical question raised by John Clarke to Ecobhoy would actually come true, whether or not Ecobhoy said it or implied it. The question was whether the SFA would still have ensured a Rangers would survive at Ibrox even if guilty of match fixing. Given Rangers were found guilty of the next worst crime, and received a fine that was never paid, and a transfer embargo that was a sham, I have to assume that yes, the SFA would still have ensured a Rangers would survive at Ibrox even if guilty of match fixing. I have to assume the media would not oppose it, and I also have to assume that Politicians from Holyrood and Westminster would also have been okay with it. These assumptions are only my view of course, but the evidence is strong.
I am now honestly of the view that any form of cheating, bribery, corruption, lies, deceit, or any manner of criminal acts could be proven beyond doubt and still the view would be that Scotland needs a strong Rangers ‘back at the very top where they belong’.
I wonder how many of the season tickets – 28K?, have already been paid in full?
Or how many will be defaulted on with the zebra finance 10 month plan?
upthehoops says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:52 pm
They have tried to convince people of it for long enough.
The mantra is that Rangers are too important to Scottish football to be allowed to pay for what they did. So even liquidation is not enough to kill them (unique in the World, not just Scottish football.
We have had threats, blackmail, predictions of Armageddon requests to move on “for the good of Scottish football”.
There really is a propaganda that Rangers are too big to fail and that there can be no Scottish football without A Rangers, no matter what they do. Cheat, lie, steal it doesn’t matter there must be A Rangers.
It’s really unsavoury.
Ordinary people doing ordinary jobs at TRFC are to be sacraficed for the good of the playing squad. Ali has to ‘Rip up’ more existing contracts before being allowed more signings. Is this the model all Scottish Teams should adopt. After all TRFC are continually being hailed as being the saviours of Scottish Football and all will be well in the game when they reach their rightful place at the top of the SPFL. But only after they have taken retribution on their enemies. Sorry. Not for me. Oldco = Dead. Newco = Soon to be Dead. We will be a better country without them. FACT.
Seems as though the redundancy programme is starting to trickle out of Ibrox , although with Walter now in charge of the apron strings , messages are fewer and far between ; dignified ‘silence’ is the watch word and relying on SFA bias and incompetence to simply just forget about licensing rule breaches, sorry (technical) breaches.
So a lot of stuff on the Internet about future doom and past disgraces (lapses of the non-religious type) which will just be ignored by everyone at Ibrox, MSM and the SFA.
Meanwhile , Rangers have signed a small goalkeeper who doesn’t come for crosses and got rid of their returning CHs, leaving them stuck with last years dustbins at the back.
I suspect that rather than a challenge on domestic cups , we will witness more of the same inept football from Rangers – the hot and cold ball strategy will be deployed for cup draws.
I now expect Rangers to somehow muddle through next season but to be a basket case (financially) for season 2014-15, with a sell off Murray Park and rental of Ibrox clear favourites. McCoist will not last the season.
Celtic will progress well domestically again; however as there are no guarentees would be delighted with CL again but not counting chickens.
Preseason training starting must dash!
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:21 pm
1 11 Rate This
beatipacificiscotia says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:59 pm
I think I can safely suggest naivety without making a personal attack.
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You can rest assured I will keep posting even though you state my comments are ‘just plain nonsense – almost childlike “you smelt it, you dealt it” arguments that lack adult reason.’
And: ‘I think your arguments are flimsy and at time foolish and illogical, but they are yours to make. It is the mock “I’m greatly misunderstood” that lose you all credibility (in my humble opinion).’
Well none of the above nor your ‘naive’ comment in another post do I regard as a personal attack. What I do regard as a personal attack is your comment below.
beatipacificiscotia says: July 2, 2013 at 2:05 pm
‘ You are more subtle than the “no surrender” mob but a Rangers propagandist none-the-less’.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[] Whether a propogandist be by accident or design, the result is the same. You are giving credence to an idea that is based on faith rather than facts – I always prefer facts. More than that, it is an idea that may lead some to consider a course of action that is irresponsible (spending more than you can afford) and immoral (such as not paying your taxes).
Flighty intellectual arguments have no bearing on the real world – right? You can say what you like as long as you are talking hypothetically – right? Wrong, and wrong. I think other posters have pointed out the morality of your position but you spat out the dummy rather than consider their real world views. I don’t mind your cloistered view, but I’m sure you appreciate how dangerous the idea is that football clubs (or any other business for that matter) are eternal – able to shed liabilities and responsibilities whenever they want and continue.
All I ask is a level playing field, for rules to be applied without fear or favour. Clubs must live within their means, or suffer the failure of administration. They will resurface from administration, perfectly legally, as a leaner club – the same club. Alternatively, they will die. You cannot have it any other way.
I think people are, quite rightly, angered and frustrated by your continuing trot out the same irresponsible comments. A bit less indignation please.
Huge lot of media distraction Chaff past few hours – [+wallpaper on here] something’s up…
upthehoops says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:52 pm
———————————
Of course Rangers would have survived match fixing; that would have been “the old club”, don’t you know, no the new shiny one? The old club that
dumped over a hundred creditors,
failed to pay its lawful taxes,
evaded VAT,
avoided NIC and PAYE,
had secret side letters with its employees, hidden from the regulators
frustrated an HMRC investigation into tax avoidance by denying side letters existed when they did,
tried to derail the same investigation by shredding same letters,
employed debatable delaying tactics in answering questions posed by HMRC,
managed to get a public hearing on tax avoidance held in private with the participants anonymised, when there was nothing in the tribunal provisions to permit this clear frustration of public interest
allowed an individual with a 7 year banning order to become its managing director
failed to disclose same to the stock market,
failed to disclose tax payables when required to do so
obtained a UEFA licence against the regulations in force at the time
used wolf whistle tactics to intimidate tribunal members
took the national association to court in contravention of the association’s rules and regulations
failed to pay the fine levied on it by the SFA
But of course the old club died, died of shame, died penniless in the modern day equivalent of a debtors’ prison, put there by the greed, avarice and business naivety of two successive owners.
So the club died and, given that BDO’s engagement as undertakers is likely to last at least another 4-5 years, the sooner TSFM sets up a separate thread where those obsessed with nuance and hair splitting can bore each other to death, the better frankly
slimshady61 says:
July 2, 2013 at 8:56 pm
So the club died and, given that BDO’s engagement as undertakers is likely to last at least another 4-5 years, the sooner TSFM sets up a separate thread where those obsessed with nuance and hair splitting can bore each other to death, the better frankly
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I prefer BDO’s engagement as Coroners (tasked with carrying out an autopsy on the dead club to establish the true cause of death). I agree with the rest. I’m normally a very measured and reserved poster, but I’m pig sick of all the pseudo-intellectual nonsense.
time for a wee smile…..from CQN
voguepunter
20:36 on
2 July, 2013
petec
Fairly envious aboot the sevco bus,sally has his own sleeping quarters.
http://timthethief.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/funny-pictures-humor-bus-1st-and-2nd-class-full-only-3rd-class-available.png
hehehehehe Braw!
Castofthousands at 6.45pm
French police alleged that Stojic gave Bain 150,000 quid in 2004.
The Traynor article, from 2006, claims the cash had been paid back.
Helpful chaps, these agents, lending football officials cash to buy houses. Very admirable.
The Charlotte tweet suggests Mr Moonbeams was about to give Bain 150,000 quid in May 2009.
It’s the sort of thing that happens all the time, it seems.
That, and 100 grand lying in loose change about a bus depot in Inchinnan.
Clearly, money is no object when you’re a Spivconian.
Just in case people find it easy to forget that there were actually people who lost money when Rangers went into administration and subsequent liquidation.
Remember HMRC equates to you and me.
Rangers administration: Full list of creditors
Published on 30/05/2012 00:00
THE full list of creditors is as follows:
A K Ray, Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow £150
ADI UK, Preston £7620
AS St Etienne, France £252,212.39
ASL, East Sussex £2514
Acies Group, Edinburgh £2340
Adrian Coll, Balloch £1600
Alan Duncan, Glasgow £1400
Alexander West Property, Glasgow £2807
Alison Walker TV, Bearsden £600
Alliance Video, Surrey £204
Aon Limited, London £14,151
Arena Imaging, Derby £336
Argyll and Bute Council £406.80
Arsenal Football Club £136,560
Astra Hygiene Supplies, Dumbarton £61.27
Audi Stirling £396.05
Azure Support Services, Macclesfield £523,949.71
Azzurri Scotland, Burnley £34.63
BTWShiells, Belfast £2917.39
Barr Environmental Limited, Cummnock £264
Base Soccer Agency, London £52,560
Bauer Radio Ltd (Radio Clyde) £702
Beyard Services, Beith £5559.60
Bhutta’s Newsagents, Glasgow £567.45
Big Think Agency, Glasgow £14,265.60
Blooms UK Limited, Glasgow £70
Brabners, Manchester £12,999
Brentwood Estates, Manchester £42,963.06
Brian Proudfoot, Glasgow £2,802
British Gas £1,562.42
BT £1,292.13
Business Cost Consultants, Glasgow £6,240.60
Business Stream, Edinburgh £9,727.22
CNP Professional, Cheshire £719.96
CRE8, Gloucester £68,406.70
Cairn Financial, London £4,127.60
Cairns & Scott Caterhire, Glasgow £762
Cameron Presentations, Glasgow £8,795.99
Campbell Medical Supplies, Paisley £3,386.73
Camtec, Herts £552
Canniesburn Taxis, Bearsden £269.69
Capital Solutions, Edinburgh £11,423.40
Capito Ltd, Livingston £1,049.69
Carberry’s Coaches, Portadown Co Armagh £1,200
Carnival Chaos Production, Edinburgh £672
Carol Govan, Glasgow £600
Cask Productions, Glasgow £1,980
Cask Sports, Glasgow £2,919.60
Catercare Scotland, Stewarton £420
Charlton Chauffeur Drive, Glasgow £792
Chelsea FC £238,345.43
Childcare Vouchers, London £1,143.74
Chilli It, Chester £416.52
Chris Clarke, Kilmarnock £150
Christine Siebelt, Milngavie £1,100
Citrus Office Solutions, Lancashire £4,304.24
City Electrical Factors, Glasgow £215.40
Clyde Productions, Glasgow £180
Coca Cola £10,133.91
Colin Suggett, Sunderland £741.80
Collstream Limited, Derby £5,779.37
Collyer Bristow, London £40,691.22
Colours Agency Glasgow £1,980
Computer Links, Livingston £2,146.32
Computershare Investor Service, Bristol, £23,855.03
Craig Services & Access East Sussex £900
Culture & Sport Glasgow £10,338.96
Daily Record & Sunday Mail £312
DealBureau Commercial Finance, Southend £10,000
Decco Limited, Glasgow £174.72
Dell Computer Corporation, Berkshire £272.85
Direct Medical Imaging, Lancashire £230
Disclosure Scotland £372
Dominique S Byrne, Nuffield Hospital, Glasgow £160
Dr David A S Marshall, Bridge of Weir £160
Dundas & Wilson, Edinburgh £24,027.84
E.ON £8,827.14
Eagle Consulting, Inverness £40
Eagle Couriers, Bathgate £96.60
Eden Springs, Blantyre £644.64
Edinburgh Audi £5,197.08
Electrical Was te Recycling, County
Durham £18
Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Stirling £9,000
Events Audio Visual, Clydebank £300
Exchequer Corporate Finance , Surrey £4,000
Executive Hire, Harlow £1,060
FES FM, Stirling £80,874.93
FL Memo, London £116.86
FX Signs, Glasgow £15,546.56
G Media Mangement, Cheltenham £995
G4S, Surrey £295,036.24
GTG Training, Glasgow £396
Gareth Neil Design, Glasgow £3,200
Gerry McGeoch, Glasgow £150
Glasgow Audi £1,041.62
Glasgow City Council £5,000
Glasgow City Council (Council Tax) £2,008.21
Glasgow Leading Attractions (The Willow Tea Rooms) £1,525
Glasgow Taxis £TBC
Glencairn Crystal Studio, East Kilbide £354
Gordon McKay, Blackridge £150
HOBS Reprographics, Glasgow £270.15
HSS Hire Service £67.10
Hamilton Brothers, Bishopton £115.56
Hay McKerron Associates, Milngavie £3,600
Hepscott Water Systems, Morpeth £1,190.28
Hrvoje Bojanic Beethoveova, Zagreb, Croatia £2,898.42
Hutchesons Eductational Trust, Glasgow £550
ILC Media, Preston £2,040
IMG Media, Chiswick £180
Impact Signs, Cumbernauld £9,482.79
Integrated Cleaning Management, Hampshire £3,329.19
Iris Chorus Application Software, Devon £5,973.60
Iris Ticketing, Devon £37,210.42
Iron Mountain, Livingston £1,271.16
JCM Business Consulting, Paisley £2,745
JJB Sports £19,390.59
James Gordon (Engineers), Galston £1,437.68
Jewson, Glasgow £930.60
Joe Lennon Picture Framing, Bearsden £840
John Deere, Gloucester £41,191.59
K7X, Ayr, £240
Kalamazoo Secure Solutions, Birmingham £4,017
Keith Hawley, Glasgow £2,600
Kevin Cameron Radio Service, Paisley £600
Kube Networks, Glasgow £7,672.08
L & S Litho, Glasgow £17,035.04
Lothian Power Clean, Larkhall £194.34
LSK Supplies, Glasgow £178.58
Lawrie Furnishings, Paisley £607.20
Limelight Networks , Arizona £2,333.49
Link Seating Limited, Worcestershire £606.98
Loomis UK, Nottingham £2,248.08
Louis Grace Electrical, Glasgow £1,087.84
Lyco Direct Limited , Milton Keynes £2,381.27
MSM Solicitors, Paisley £420
MacGregor Industrial Supplies, Inverness £106.76
Mackinnon Partners, Gourock £200
Manchester City FC £328,248.71
Manea Florin Bucharest £37,500
Mar Hall, Bishopton £5,511.90
Marsh Ltd UK, Norwich £779.10
Martin Dawes, Warrington £654.74
Media House, Glasgow £19,200
MediaCom, Edinburgh £11,544.42
Menzies Hotels, Derbyshire £257.40
Michael Douglas, Glasgow £100
Milngavie Mini Market £413.29
Modular Property Holdings, Glasgow £20,930.22
Motif Promotional Clothing, Glasgow £27.29
Murray Group Holdings, Edinburgh £278,964.30
Nairn Brown (Glasgow) £1,492.50
National Car Rental, Leicester £162.52
Navyblue Design Group, Edinburgh £6,960
Newline Products, Glasgow £7,001
Newsquest (Herald & Times £1,500
Nexo S.A., France £1,799.37
Nicola Young, Glasgow £3,500
Noble Grossart, Edinburgh £18,612
Nordic Scouting, Oslo £20,000
North Glasgow College £11,041.80
OHSS, Edinburgh £234
OfficeFurnitureOnline.co.uk, Dumfires £338.40
Ooyala, California £733.92
Opal Telecom £169.72
Orebro SK £150,000
Oxford Hotels & Inns (Carnoustie) £3,709.96
PR Newswire Europe £300
PTS – Plumbing Trade Supplies, Leicester £30.42
Paramed, Howwood £1,050
Parklands Country Club, Glasgow £500
Parks of Hamilton £7,256
Paton Plant, York £1,450.16
Perform Group, Middlesex £346,097.43
Pineapple Aroundshot, Co Durham £2,316.96
Pineapple Photographic, Co Durham £5,875
Ping Network Solutions, Glasgow £4,020.25
Plum Films, Edinburgh £3,000
Posh Deli, Glasgow £260
Postage by Phone, Essex £510.80
Premier Cash Registers, Glasgow £12,600
Prime Commercial Properties
Management, London £10,805.53
Professional Pre-Season Tours (Libero), Glasgow £60,000
Quick Shift Tyre Service, Glasgow £48
R.F.Brown, Hamilton £1,681.44
RBS WorldPay, Cambridge £180.66
RS Components Limited, Northants £204.95
Rangers Lotteries Ltd, Glasgow £105.80
Reed Business Information, Surrey £2,764.80
Renfrewshire Council HQ £108
Restore Scotland, Paisley £579.74
Rigby Taylor Limited, Bolton £10,762.16
Rodgers Sercurity Systems, Glasgow £342.50
Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow £770.50
Ross Promotional, Glasgow £1,022.88
Royal Mail £3,262.54
SDL Group, Glasgow £1,350
SG World, Cheshire £577.56
SIR Teknologi, West Sussex £TBC
SK Rapid, Austria £1,011,763.44
STRI, West Yorkshire £17.28
Saffery Champness, Glasgow £31,028.01
Scot-West Business Forms, Glasgow £749.60
Scotprint, Haddington £7,514
Scotrae Productions, Greenock £17,058.94
Scottish Ambulance Service £8,438.40
Scottish Hydro Electric £62,527.30
Scottish Power £302.44
Search Promotional Merchandise, Buckinghamshire £6,240
Shanks Waste Management, Southampton £122.58
Sharon Agnew, Glasgow £460
Shawfield Timber, Glasgow, £786.24
Shell UK £7,637.94
Shields Land Rover, Glasgow £246.75
Shred-it Glasgow £444
Sign Plus, Dunfermline £2,473.22
Signature Industries, London £1,507.90
Simplewaste Solutions, Clydebank £17,626.26
Sinclair Pharmacy, Glasgow £1,909.79
Slater Menswear , Glasgow £688.31
Solutions.tv, Glasgow £2,652
Sound Acoustic Productions, Glasgow £12,000
Souters Irrigation Services, Cumbernauld £456
Spike Multiedia, Giffnock £5,312.50
Sporting iD, Tyne and Wear £144.70
Sportopps.com, Belfast £150
Sports Alliance, Bury £2,006.65
Sports Revolution, London £5,034.52
Stellar Football, London £72,000
Stirling Fire Protection £1,149.30
Stockline Plastics, Glasgow £258
Strathclyde Police £51,882
Striking Imagery, Cumbernauld £113.51
Stuart MacMorran, Clydebank £422.50
Summit Asset Management, Surrey £70,555.88
Susan Thomson Your Sonsie Face, Glasgow £40
TNT £1,255.39
Tabs FM, London, £1,980
Tellcomm Limited, West Midlands £6,435.89
The Arco Group, Hull £443.43
The Brite Bulb, Bishopbriggs £3,209.64
The Burnbrae, Bearsden £1,403.88
The Business & Property Bureau, Bearsden £7,376
The Business Incentives Group, Glasgow £1,893.60
The City of Edinburgh Council £90
The Fees Company, Edinburgh £118.16
The Financial Times £3,480
The Scottish Football League £3,859.92
The Premier Property Group, Edinburgh £103,210.96
Thistle International Freight, Paisley £128.42
Thistle Storage Equipment, Cumbernauld £140.40
Thomas Cook Sport, Manchester £129,216.56
Ticket Team, Netherlands £873.36
Ticketline Network, Manchester £11,668.67
Trade UK (Screwfix) £77.01
Trident Trust Company, Jersey £40,689.90
UK Fast, Manchester £689.78
US Citta di Palermo, Italy £205,513.04
Umbro £1,756.05
University of the West of Scotland £135
Vodafone £204
Voicescape, Manchester £786.84
William Henderson, Glasgow £275
Yuill & Kyle Solicitors, Glasgow £1,486.80
Celtic FC £40,337
Dundee United FC £65,981.49
Dunfermline Athletic FC £83,370.13
Heart of Midlothian FC £800,000
Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC £39,805
SPL £22,500
SFA 11,089.04
HM Revenue & Customs £14,372,042
Ticketus, London £26,700,000
Debenture Holders (various) £7,736,000
Season Ticket Holders (various) £TBC
Employees Various £TBC
Gaz says:
July 2, 2013 at 9:23 pm
=========================
Did Celtic receive the £40,377 they were owed under the repayment of football debts? Never seen it mentioned anywhere.
Gaz says:
July 2, 2013 at 9:23 pm
I think that list is the cause of the angst the subject causes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/The_Scream.jpg/220px-The_Scream.jpg
Its as if the viictims have been airbrushed from history and nothing wrong took place..
Auldheid says:
July 2, 2013 at 9:42 pm
Rangers are too important to Scottish football financially for the victims of their profligacy and overspending due to a sense of hubris and supremacy to matter.
Scotland needs a strong Rangers, we don’t need tax bills or bills to the Scottish Ambulance Service paid.
You really need to look at your priorities, old bean.
Jim Larkin says:
July 2, 2013 at 6:53 pm
“IN the first of a new series of exclusive, in-depth and hard-hitting TV interviews, James Traynor…”
————————
I was unable to read further than the first line.
Highlander says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:24 pm
“Alternatively, you could simply ask those who don’t like reading about the old club/new club issue to sacrifice three milliseconds of their lives by skipping past the offensive post.”
———————–
I agree Highlander, the single mixed thread works fine and a number of simutaneous convesations can be woven independently and picked up where posters feel the need. The most recent old club/new club debate has become sterile, thus the call to have it isolated.
Its not a bad debate to have but when no concensus is being reached posters need to sidestep it rather than being drawn into a fist fight. Unity is strength. We must remember the positives that might be attained by wielding such strength.
twopanda says:
July 2, 2013 at 8:53 pm
Did you mean “walloper”?
upthehoops says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:52 pm
I’ll tell you what really worries me. It is not Ecobhoy’s views on what is and is not a club and that Rangers are too important to disappear, and it is not the views of those who oppose him. It is whether the context of a hypothetical question raised by John Clarke to Ecobhoy would actually come true, whether or not Ecobhoy said it or implied it. The question was whether the SFA would still have ensured a Rangers would survive at Ibrox even if guilty of match fixing.
=============================================================================
I think you are right – some kind of fudge would have been established and I have no illusions about what the SFA are capable of.
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 1:18 pm
But in the case of Rangers the biggest villains IMO are the makers, custodians and interpreters of these rules. Rangers could not have done many of the things they have without the active consent, agreement and participation of the Hampden suits and I believe they are the most important target for Scottish Football fans.
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 10:57 pm
Rangers could not have done many of the things they have without the active consent, agreement and participation of the Hampden suits …
========================================
I disagree.
They could have done it very easily , and did. Everything they did was because they choose to do so, it was no-one else’s decision but theirs. No-one else’s fault but theirs. No-one did it but them. No-one else was required.
They could not have gotten away with it for so long without the compliance of the authorities. Would not have gotten European licences without their complicity. However that is a different issue.
The only people to blame for what happened to Rangers is the club themselves. They were the architects of their own Downfall.
The SFA if ever faced by match fixing from Rangers would adopt the time honoured strategy of playing the man and not the ball.
The following would happen:
– Sin die ban for all directors
– Fine the directors (never see the money)
– relegation from the league
– a wide inquiry checking all other games to allow MSM smear tactics that it was not just Rangers
Fairly easy to predict SFA behaviour
Apologies but just playing a bit of catch up.
If Michael Grant in the Herlad yesterday is to be believed then T’Rangers have £8m of the IPO left in the bank.
So if that is correct then they must have been using the IPO money for running costs.
So £22m IPO plus season tickets at say £8m plus on the day sales £3m plus strip sponsorship etc, lets say £1m. Gives us a total of £34m but they only have £8m.
So for a club with no debt a transfer embargo and only taking on free transfers for 2013/2014 that means a spend of £26m in one season in Div 3 or just over £2m a month.
This coming season, at present they have to rely on the same kind of season ticket and pay on the day income and anything they bring in from merchandising of the 3 new strips.
£11m tickets plus £8m IPO plus merchandise unknown to get to the spend of £24m or whatever is required for next season once cuts have been made.
Boy is it going to be tight.
If not this coming season then next when there is no IPO money.
Squeeky Bum Time as a famous son of Govan is known to say.
upthehoops says:
July 2, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Btw I should have made it clear in my previous post that I was again misrepresented by another statement ascribed to me that I didn’t actually make and was repeated in your post which is: ‘that Rangers are too important to disappear’.
The undernoted posts for anyone who has an open mind state what I actually said relating to the SFL vote and was based on the actual evidence which was available at that time as far as I knew it and I thought SFL3 was an appropriate punishment. That was my position then and it remains my position although others may have wanted a harsher penalty and a permanent ban.
It would appear that the SFL agreed with my position and I am sure many in the SPL would also have been happier if fan power hadn’t prevented Rangers remaining there which I happened to have been opposed to. I also made it clear that if Rangers had been guilty of match fixing then they should have been banned for an appropriate period which may well have been permanent depending on the frequency of rule breaches.
UNDERNOTE
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 4:01 pm
‘Since this debacle began I thought it right that Rangers started from the bottom league – I never thought they should be expelled because quite simply they are too important financially to be removed from Scottish Football IMO’.
And ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 5:33 pm
‘I was simply stating my opinion that it would have been a mistake if the SFL had decided against allowing them into SFL3 and thus effectively expelling them from Scottish Football.
‘If Rangers had been found guilty of match-fixing then I would have expected them to face an SFA ban irrespective of their importance to Scottish Football financially and the length of ban would be determined by the frequency of any wrongdoing.
‘But that didn’t happen and I was dealing with the facts of the situation as was which is, along with other ‘punishments’ from the 5-way agreement, that IMO it was fair to place them in SFL3.’
ecobhoy says:
July 2, 2013 at 11:33 pm
I thought SFL3 was an appropriate punishment.
============================
Rangers being admitted to SFL3 was not a “punishment”.
How could being admitted to a league you had no entitlement to be in be a punishment. It could only be considered a punishment if they were entitled to be in a higher league. They had no such entitlement.
They applied for the SPL and were rejected. They then applied for the SFL and were accepted.
That is not a punishment. If anything it was a concession.
Just in from the pub, I read (almost) every post, but from now on I’ll avoid any from ecobhoy, as, in my humble view, he’s ‘trying too hard’.
I’m not sure if Eco is undercover or just contrary, but if the cardigan, Charlie boy, James the giant peach and the random yank with the trucks all reckoned RFC were RIP when the CVA went cheerio. Who am I, to rock, the boat.
Anyone see what CF called me? I was only trying to goad her into some juicy leaks, apologies . Unless you insinuated I was a rager.
Well said Slim, don’t be a stranger.
The Scottish game is desperately in need of a massive cash injection from youth level upwards to the std of pitches. Fir Park , Ross County and the Dons playing surfaces were shocking from Christmas last year.
The SPFL with the new financial package is sticking plaster but ‘something’ needs to happen to get the game off it’s knees – the problem is the bowling club types running the SFA and the 100 odd years of just existing , with the free trip (sorry junket) thrown in keeps the blazers and brogues happy.
SFA reform needed- leader (s) needed : the rangers problem whilst hilarious or very irritating or a tragedy (if u frequent Ibrox) is a sideshow to the bigger picture – old or new club , can’t expend the mental energy on it – looking forward to the day when the Sheep , Arabs and the Jam Tarts rock up to CP with a fighting chance of a win.
Meanwhile, such gifts as the new bus just keep coming to embarass some and provide endless hours of fun for others.
And what is a ‘club’ – well to me it’s the receptacle which holds the history and culture of a club and its supporters as well as the future aspirations of its fans and as long as they support it then it lives for ever.
Not having a go Ecobhoy, but Is this not a semantically nonsense? To paraphrase your statement, a club is the receptacle which holds the history and culture of a receptacle which holds the history and culture of a … ad infinitum.
As is “semantically nonsense” but maybe you get my drift
I think the oldclub / newclub nonsense has gone on to long. Time to let go Ecobhoy and others. Do not lose focus or be distracted from everything else that is going on at the moment.
I think most would agree it has not been the best of TSFM days, lets get back on track.
I note the Herald today is printing sugar coated quotes from the McCoist interview with Traynor on the Rangers website. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Morning all. Cloudy and cool on this island, no powercuts though.
What a fine post by @slimshady61 above.
On the lighter side (since it’s the silly season) here’s one definition of The SPFL. Not a bad euphemism, really.
http://www.spfl.org/
Oh, and it has proper rules too:
—————-
Article Xl
Expulsion
Section l
Any blatant violation of the SPFL Constitution/By-Laws or the spirit of its philosophy shall render the offending school eligible for expulsion.
—————-
EKBhoy says:
July 3, 2013 at 12:25 am
================================
The problem with the SFA bowling club mentality is that it remains firmly as a major part of what many still see as the natural order in Scotland
1. Rangers will win things more often than Celtic
2. Celtic will win things sometimes but never as often as Rangers
3. The rest can get on with it and occasionally a gem or two will appear to annoy points 1 & 2
As long as point 1 was in place it did not really matter who was running the SFA. The most important point from a social or demographic point of view was that Rangers needed to be more successful than Celtic. I get the impression the bowling club committee are willing to sit tight on this one. Worse still, when point 1 is resumed, even if it is unclear how it is being financed, the committee will see it as justice against those who dared speak out.
upthehoops
And therein lies the crux of the problem
When (Sevco the illegitimate child of the now departed Ragers 1872 reaches the SPL the peepil will do all they can to ensure they are vying for honours no matter what .
As I have said before if the Peepil would be so kind as to let us know when other teams will be allowed to win the league then we can wait till then and buy our STs
After all the cheating we have witnessed to aid the tribute act in their first season ,my question is when does the cheating stop ?
Worth a mention?
KFCSA Statement – 2nd July 2013
In an attempt to seek clarification on a number of matters and having carefully considered the recent press comments of Club Chairman Michael Johnston in the media KFCSA has now issued the following statement:
At the Annual General Meeting of Kilmarnock Football Club Supporters’ Association (KFCSA) on June 15th 2013 virtually all of those attending agreed that change in the board structure of Kilmarnock Football Club was essential to secure the long term financial viability and future of Scotland’s oldest professional Club.
Following that meeting, numerous Supporters’ Clubs and groups issued separate open letters and statements; each of them expressed concerns and also frustrations at the structure of the Club where a one man board continues to operate comprising the majority shareholder Michael Johnston who was effectively gifted the significant shareholding of former director Jamie Moffat.
KFCSA has noted, with interest and some concern, the statements and quotes which have appeared in the media from Mr Johnston since the 15th of June and also following upon the emergence of the Ayrshire Business Group (ABG) which comprises a number of prominent Ayrshire business people including club sponsors, advertisers, and suppliers such as Browning the Bakers, QTS, Hamilton Tarmac and a number of others including the Klin Group and former Chairman director Bill Costley.
From his quotes, Mr Johnston clearly does not seem to realise the depth and strength of feeling which now exists for change amongst the paying customers of Kilmarnock FC, sponsors, advertisers and shareholders. Sadly, and of concern, he seems to believe that the whole matter is merely a few people working from a long standing agenda.
KFCSA now seek answers from Mr.Johnston on the following relevant questions :
1) What is the economic reasoning and rationale for Mr Johnston actually seeking payment for shares which almost everyone(other than Mr Johnston) believes to be worthless? He has indicated that he would consider “a credible offer”.
2) Which incidents or conduct is Mr Johnston referring to when he states :” We have gone to other grounds and the behaviour of some supporters has fallen below the standard the club is entitled to expect “ ? That comment is a direct assertion that some supporters of our Club have not conducted themselves satisfactorily on more than one occasion.
3) What are the ACTUAL comparative season ticket sales figures for the new season and the past two seasons?
It was interesting to note Mr Johnston’s recent comments that sales had increased considering that just over a year ago at a public meeting in the Grand Hall, Kilmarnock, in what was a highly embarrassing moment, he was unable to provide actual numbers when questioned on the same subject matter and having also made a similar comment about increased sales.
The long term future of the Club is now a major concern to KFCSA and the Club’s supporters who are, understandably, torn between wanting to continue to support the Club financially but with many seeking the early removal of Mr Johnston from his position as Chairman some by boycotting the purchase of season tickets and the Club’s home games until there is change.
EKBhoy says:
July 3, 2013 at 12:25 am
11 1 Rate This
The Scottish game is desperately in need of a massive cash injection from youth level upwards to the std of pitches. Fir Park , Ross County and the Dons playing surfaces were shocking from Christmas last year.
==========================================================================
Don’t want to be pedantic, but the Fir Park pitch was excellent last year. It was a state previously, but the club has spent well over £500,000 on it over the last couple of years, money that may have helped keep a couple of the players who left.
Glad the good work hasn’t gone unnoticed 🙂
Patience is the long game we need to keep in focus with ,the war is over and it is only some sporadic battles that are being fought aimlesly ,as history will tell you the mighty have fallen ,maybe not as soon as the war was over in whatever period of time ,but ,it did eventualy rid the world of the bad guys at the time ,not to say that the victors stayed good guys for long ,but in time they where removed also and so on ,we have history repeating itself here again ,as it will in the future ,history and future in the same sentence!! no the sevconians will be recorded as such in the book and people ,or should that be peeple will read this with much amazement that such a farce was allowed to continue for so long and will only be able to imagine the embarresment felt in Scotland that we had to endure this farce for such a lengthy period of time ,they can sugar coat all the want but that is exactly what it is ,sugar coating ,in someone elses words ,cheat, but they know no other way so cheating it will have to be ,for now, they are slowly ,very slowly being seperated from the rest of reality but it will come and the world looking in with bewilderment will soon get irritated and the people in places that should have intervened will be questioned by the outsiders and they will have to get involved ,most wars are won by people turning towards the good guys ,fed up when their tranquil world is being threatened ,when this day arrives ,in the not to distant future ,anyone that had a part in this will be paraded for all to see ,anyone want to redeem themselves before its too late. You’re chance to get off at the next [Bus] stop.
The verbal assault on Ecobhoy, after he dared state an opinion that wasn´t deemed anti-Rangers enough by many regulars goes to show that this site lives mostly in a narrow tunnel of it´s own and is far from what it pretends to be.
This may aswell be a Celtic site and be done with it.
I hadn’t seen the list of creditors before and it really is quite frightening considering the number of small businesses, not to mention the tax payer and council tax payer, who have been left out of pocket. For small businesses in particular any unpaid debt is a problem. It completely contradicts the mantra “Scottish Football needs a strong Rangers. Scottish football and Scotland as a whole, doesn’t need Rangers at all. We can’t afford them.
I would agree that the Scottish football authorities have been much less than diligent, but then organisations with the full force of law behind them such as HMRC were also duped. There’s no doubt that despite the fresh start with the Newco, the same mindset prevails within Ibrox. I really hope they fold soon and are gone for ever. I repeat Scotland cannot afford Rangers.
Morning all.
Awaken this morning to news of Ally speaking to another international player(Berra) and Gordon Durie joining as a coach.
Maybe just me but with something like 10 new players/coaches etc arriving,even at an average of 250k p.a. each that’s £2.5m on the wage bill.
That’s 125 ancillary staff at an average of £20k p.a..A lot of redundancies to balance the books.
IMO the costs are still rising.
greenockjack says:
July 3, 2013 at 8:32 am
1 3 Rate This
The verbal assault on Ecobhoy, after he dared state an opinion that wasn´t deemed anti-Rangers enough by many regulars goes to show that this site lives mostly in a narrow tunnel of it´s own and is far from what it pretends to be.
This may aswell be a Celtic site and be done with it.
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I think you’ll find the majority of folks have nothing against ecobhoy, or the arguments for or against. But many are weary of the repetitive nature of what has become an essentially private debate, conducted in strained semantics of diarrhetic proportions.
greenockjack says:
July 3, 2013 at 8:32 am
0 2 Rate This
The verbal assault on Ecobhoy, after he dared state an opinion that wasn´t deemed anti-Rangers enough by many regulars goes to show that this site lives mostly in a narrow tunnel of it´s own and is far from what it pretends to be.
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If you want to know what a real “verbal assault” feels like, why not put a post up on FF or the Bears Den, to the effect that the liquidation of RFC extinguished the club’s history, and that Sevco/TRFC started with a clean sheet? Then you can compare and contrast , and report back to us? Assuming you can even get such a post past the ever vigilant mods on those havens of dignity, of course.
Most people on here disagree with Ecobhoy’s thesis, and have posted accordingly, overwhelmingly in a reasoned and polite (although by now clearly exasperated) manner. This is a discussion forum. Most people on here accept that disagreement is healthy, so long as it is politely expressed. What’s your problem?.
I am willing to bet my best set of chisels that Longmuir becomes the choice for the spfl that then completes the circle for newcos triumphant reuturn
Fine post from Slimshady at 8;56 pm,proving a reminder of why many people visit this site.The core attraction is surely ,that it provides an invaluable ‘monitor’ of the state of Scottish football.That many mainstream articles continue to peddle the notion that football needs a strong Rangers is tedious to say the least. Rangers ,in one form ,shape or another may progress but that is not relevant.
The issue is,was and always will be that the club in question,by their actions and the subsequent reactions from the governing authorities created a toxicity in the game which will never be forgotten.
In my view,this is the greatest corporate scandal in the history of Scottish football.That is the crux of the matter and the reverberations will continue.