The SPFL— the case for revolution, evolution and a case of the Hamilton Whackies !

Good Evening.

As we ponder the historic vote to create a new Governing body to oversee Scottish League football, I cannot help but wonder what brilliant minds will be employed in the drawing up of its constitution, rules, memorandum and articles of association?

Clearly, Messrs Doncaster, Longmuir and even Mr Regan as the CEO of the SFA will be spending many hours with those dreaded folk known simply as “ The Lawyers” in an attempt to get the whole thing up and running and written down in the course of a few short weeks.

In truth, that scares me.

It scares me because legal documentation written up in a hurry or in a rush is seldom perfect and often needs amendment—especially when the errors start to show! The old adage of beware of the busy fool sadly applies.

It also scares me because the existing rules under which the game is governed are not, in my humble opinion, particularly well written and seem to differ in certain material respects from those of UEFA. Even then, adopting the wording and the approach of other bodies is not necessarily the way to go.

I am all in favour of some original thought– and that most precious and unusual of commodities known as common sense and plain English.

Further, the various licensing and compliance rules are clearly in need of an overhaul as they have of late produced what can only be best described as a lack of clarity when studied for the purposes of interpretation. Either that or those doing the studying and interpreting are afflicted with what might be described as tortuous or even tortured legal and administrative minds.

If it is not by now clear that the notion of self-certification on financial and other essential disclosure criteria necessary to obtain a footballing licence (whether European or domestic) is a total non-starter — then those in charge of the game are truly bonkers.

Whilst no governing body can wholly control the actions of a member club, or those who run a club, surely provisions can be inserted into any constitution or set of rules that allows and brings about greater vigilance and scrutiny than we have at present—all of course designed to do nothing other than alert the authorities as early as possible if matters are not being conducted properly or fairly.

However, the main change that would make a difference to most of the folk involved in the Scottish game – namely the fans— would be to have the new rules incorporate a measure which allowed football fans themselves to be represented on any executive or committee.

Clearly, this would be a somewhat revolutionary step and would be fought against tooth and nail by some for no reason other than that it has simply not been done before—especially as the league body is there to regulate the affairs of a number of limited companies all of whom have shareholders to account to and the clubs themselves would presumably be the shareholders in the new SPFL Ltd.

Then again to my knowledge Neil Doncaster is not a shareholder in The SPL ltd– is he?

I can hear the argument that a fan representative on a league body might not be impartial, might be unprofessional, might be biased, might lack knowledge or experience, and have their own agenda and so on—just like many chairmen and chief executive officers who already sit on the committees of the existing league bodies.

Remember too that the SFA until relatively recently had disciplinary committees made up almost exclusively of referees. I don’t think anyone would argue that the widening of the make up of that committee has been a backward step.

However, we already have fan representation at clubs like St Mirren and Motherwell, and of course there has been an established Tartan Army body for some time now. Clubs other than the two mentioned above have mechanisms whereby they communicate and consult with fans, although they stop short of full fan participation– very often for supposedly insurmountable legal reasons.

As often as not, the fans want a say in the running of their club, but also want to be able to make representations to the governing bodies via their club.

So why not include the fans directly in the new set up for governing the league?

Any fan representative could  be someone proposed by a properly registered fan body such as through official supporters clubs, or could be seconded by the clubs acting in concert with their supporters clubs.

Perhaps a committee of fan representatives could be created, with such a committee having a representative on the various committees of the new league body.

In this way, there would be a fan who could report back to the fan committee and who could represent the interests of the ordinary fan in the street in any of the committees. Equally such a committee of fans could ensure that any behind the scenes discussions on any issue were properly reported, openly discussed, and made public with no fear of hidden agendas, secret meetings, and secret collusive agreements and so forth.

Is any of that unreasonable? Surely many companies consider the views of their biggest customer? This idea is no different.

Surely such a situation would go some way towards establishing some badly needed trust between the governing bodies and the fans themselves?

If necessary, I would not even object to the fan representatives being excluded from having a right to vote on certain matters—as long as they had a full right of audience and a full right of access to all discussions and relative papers which affect the running of the game.

In this way at least there would be openness and transparency.

In short, it would be a move towards what is quaintly referred to as Democracy.

Perhaps, those who run the game at present should consider the life and times of the late great Alexander Hamilton- one of the founding fathers of the United States of America and who played a significant role in helping write the constitution of that country.

Hamilton was a decent and brilliant man in many ways—but he was dead set against Democracy and the liberation of rights for the masses. In fact, he stated that the best that can be hoped for the mass populace is that they be properly armed with a gun and so able to protect themselves against injustice!

Sadly, Hamilton became embroiled in a bitter dispute with the then Vice President of the nation Aaron Burr in July 1804. Hamilton had used his influence and ensured that Burr lost the election to become Governor of New York and had made some withering attacks on the Vice President’s character.

When he refused to apologise, the Vice President took a whacky notion and challenged him to a duel! Even more whacky is the fact that Hamilton accepted the challenge and so the contest took place at Weehawken New Jersey on the morning of 11th July 1804.

The night before, Hamilton wrote a letter which heavily suggested that he would contrive to miss Burr with his shot, and indeed when the pistols fired Hamilton’s bullet struck a branch immediately above Burr’s head.

However, he did not follow the proper procedure for duelling which required a warning from the duellist that they are going to throw their shot away. Hamilton gave no such indication despite the terms of his letter and despite his shot clearly missing his opponent.

Burr however fired and hit Hamilton in the lower abdomen with the result that the former secretary to the treasury and founding father of the constitution died at 2pm on the twelfth of July.

The incident ruined Burr’s career (whilst duelling was still technically legal in New jersey, it had already been outlawed in various other states).

In any event, in Hamilton’s time full and open democracy in the United States of America would have met with many cries of outrage and bitter opposition. Yet, today, the descendants of slaves and everyone from all social standings, all ethnic minorities and every social background has the constitutional right to vote and seek entry to corridors of power.

In that light, is it really asking too much to allow football fans to have a say and a presence in the running of a game they pay so much to support?

 

4,181 thoughts on “The SPFL— the case for revolution, evolution and a case of the Hamilton Whackies !


  1. Gaz 8:43am

    Until the Bears & these invisible Rangers men finally grasp that expenditure must be less than or equal to income, banking facility not withstanding, they cannot build a solid base from which to challenge on a consistent basis.

    It would appear from the FF comments that as soon as they are in the top division they expect silverware. This is the road that led them to ruin in their previous guise.

    Cutting a few admin jobs & perhaps shifting Shields and Black out – who would be so daft as to offer them £6k a week other than Ally – is not going to solve their problems.

    The first place they should start is by creating a clear football strategy, give it an affordable budget and have someone manage it. They have already missed one season in which to start this process. The signs are they are about to squander a second. I’m not sure this present entity will be around for a third.


  2. ulyanova says:
    July 6, 2013 at 12:04 am

    The BDO questions are asking him for evidence on the answers he gave in his meeting with them
    ====================================================

    I think you’re spot on about that. I would love to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting just to watch the BDO faces as CW unfolded his story.

    I have slowly moved my ground on CW from that that he was simply off his rocker and had been a convenient dupe to be used and discarded as a means of removing a serious financial drain from MIH but in a way that SDM retained his street cred with the Bears helped, of course, by some very clever and unscrupulous PR and a lazy and inept SMSM.

    As time has passed I have come to believe that CW is more complex – he might still be off his head and he might still be an incorrigible con-man but chunks of his story seem to be pretty close to what could be the ‘truth’ and the taped conversations are very compelling to me in this regard.

    But really top-notch conmen are expert at sticking like glue to a sellable version of the truth because that’s the one that catches the fly no matter how experienced or clever it is.

    So I think BDO have essentially been shown a view through the ‘looking glass’ by CW and they don’t know whether it offers an easy walk in the park for them or a nightmare.

    That’s why they want to try and work-out what they are dealing with and gather any corroboration that CW has in the shape of documents, tapes, and the connections between the players in this fantastic tale.

    My fear is that if CW is telling anywhere near the whole truth that the whole affair will become too ‘political’ and a discreet decision will be taken to narrow the scope of their enquiry but a lot depends on how HMRC feel about it as they have been sorely abused as an institution as have individual officers by the Blue supporters.

    And it may be the UTT decision on their appeal determines Hector’s future path and level of interest.


  3. john clarke says:
    July 6, 2013 at 1:01 am

    “And now they are beyond redemption. Every single one of them.”
    ————————-
    Whilst I agree with your sentiment there have been a select few journalists who have appearde to abide by their job description. They have been targetted by the likes of media house for their efforts. I do not have the context of their reporting propriety to hand, nor is my list comprehensive but the following few individuals have come under fire whilst attempting to retain the efficacy of their profession :-

    Nick Harris
    Alex Thomson
    Martin Williams
    Mark Daly
    Phil Mac Ghiolla Bhain
    Brendan McGinty

    Scotzine have also published articles that displayed an admirably dispassionate view of events.

    So much glory shared by so few. You budding journalists, look at the work of the above and learn how you should conduct your trade.

    Perhaps Graham Spiers and Tom English want to get out of the reign.


  4. Danish Pastry says:
    July 6, 2013 at 8:23 am

    Btw, I’ve often wondered what elves did for the remaining 11 months of the year 🙂
    ===================================================================

    There’s never an elve about when you need one 🙂

    But not all nisser help at Yule time and indeed many can be malign with a darker agenda. That has always been one of the great difficulties in this whole tale with different people/groupings having different agendas which are often hidden away from the one put on public display.


  5. Sugar Daddy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:05 am

    ======================

    I couldn’t agree more.

    What they really need is proper businessmen in charge of the business side.

    If you think over the last 25 years or so it has basically been a dictatorship, and the dictator being not a particularly good businessman. Murray, Whyte, Green.

    You then look at the yesmen on the board, blokes like Marin Bain, a male model turned pub manager turned senior executive at a football club.

    Until and unless they get that sorted out they are not addressing the real issues. Actually running a business. The problem is that it’s doubtful if the majority of the support would accept what really needs to be done, even now.


  6. ecobhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:12 am
    1 0 Rate This

    ulyanova says:
    July 6, 2013 at 12:04 am

    My fear is that if CW is telling anywhere near the whole truth that the whole affair will become too ‘political’ and a discreet decision will be taken to narrow the scope of their enquiry but a lot depends on how HMRC feel about it as they have been sorely abused as an institution as have individual officers by the Blue supporters.
    ***********************************
    Eco, this has been a wee sneaky suspicion of mine for some time. However, I still believe, perhaps naively, that justice will prevail, the truth will out and calls to account will be issued. Scottish society can afford to do nothing less.
    That there is an element of our society that wishes to cling to the past is in little doubt. I am sure I am not the only reader who was rudely awakened this morning by a cacophony of drums. Many decent people will feel intimidated as they go about their daily lives but on the bigger issues, we cannot afford to let this scandal in our game be swept under the carpet.
    If we are to be perceived as a modern inclusive wee country, we have to grasp the nettle. Anything less will only compound the scandal.


  7. Caveat Emptor says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Thing is, this is a Scottish scandal, totally agreed.

    However this is not being driven by Scottish forces, nor can it be influenced in any significant way from Scotland.

    HMRC are a reserved body and a non-ministerial Department, we saw what happened when for example the Scottish First Minister tried to influence them, tried to speak for a Scottish institution. Rangers were liquidated.

    In addition, in my opinion this is not really about rangers per se any more. It is about the people behind Rangers and it is about the creditors. The dead club is more of a sideshow.


  8. For all the spivs, season ticket sales, dodgy invoices, clubs, companies, tape recordings, asset switches, mysterious shareholders, asbestos, succulent lamb, compliant football authorities, convoluted legal decisions, Charlotte, Yorkshire, Monaco, boardroom battles and luxury buses…nobody but nobody has espoused a coherent mid term business strategy to keep a Rangers afloat with a decent chance of success on the park.

    There is little hope of this story getting any better for T’Gers until somebody does. It has start with some pain and that means player, coaches and admin staff roles being lost to gain control of the cost base. However until they move on stage 5 of grief – Acceptance – it’s not going to happen.

    Many have yet to grasp what the financial reality entails. A decade or more of financially doped succes has bred a generation of season ticket holding trophy junkies.

    Paradoxically they are now the biggest obstacle to a brighter future down Govan way.


  9. Castofthousands says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:19 am
    john clarke says:
    July 6, 2013 at 1:01 am

    “And now they are beyond redemption. Every single one of them.”
    ———————————————————————————
    So much glory shared by so few. You budding journalists, look at the work of the above and learn how you should conduct your trade.
    ———————————————————————————
    The current state of the SMSM isn’t actually down to Rangers but more a very complex mix of numerous factors.

    Quite simply the print side of the business has been in serious structural decline for at least 20 years although the roots go back much further when control of papers were more in the hands of trade unions than the proprietors. In those days ‘title’ were akin to what football clubs later became – they were ‘trophy’ possessions to feed the ego of rich men.

    Rising costs saw that model increasingly come under pressure and then along came Eddie Shah and Murdoch at Wapping. Lots of savings were made but through a mix of factors circulations started to decline and that started to affect advertising revenue as did the arrival of a host of more exciting ways to brand a product.

    Then came the internet and that really signalled the end of mass circulation newspapers through the lack of vision of owners and senior executives. The huge mistake they made was to only see ‘new technology’ as a means of cutting costs, reducing staff and increasing the productivity of those who were left all with the aim of increasing profit.

    What was missing was the vision as to how news, features and information could be transferred to the internet in ways that would catch the attention of a new emerging class of ‘readers’ who were starting to surf the information highway.

    Very slowly some newspapers took the plunge with online editions but fell into the trap of just reproducing their printed version on screen. To a large extent the newspaper industry has been way behind the internet curve and how to use social media and they still struggle to make money from the internet and all the while circulation plummets as does ad revenue from their printed product.

    So a long intro to where I’m trying to go and that is the quality of journalists. We have a dying industry which is pretty stodgy and quite simply it doesn’t attract that high a calibre of people – the wages are cr*p, the job satisfaction has gone for most and any bright spark who stumbles into it soon realises their mistake and gets out.

    Some use the industry for a few years to network and make contacts with a view to getting into politics, PR, a charity job, lobbying and a host of similar activities. There are few who join seeking to find and publish the ‘TRUTH’. The training of journalists in the main is pathetic and the key to understanding their output is to look at the ‘cuttings’ produced by the lecturers if they were ever employed as journos. In the main a sad collection.

    But their job isn’t really to train journos but to put bums of seats to pay for their salary and the upkeep of their institution. The amount of media courses taking place in Scotland is scary and there isn’t a hope in hell of the output being employed in ‘real’ journalism. So any that actually do get employed in a newspaper know that an army is waiting at their back ready to step-in if they should falter or baulk at any instruction.

    Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of really great young Scots who are driven to push the boundaries and that often entails leaving the physical boundary of Scotland behind. Many have become photo-journalists and many others have turned to film-making and documentaries and social media to get their message across.

    So there are plenty able principled youngsters and some oldies as well who are out there but very few work in Scottish newspapers for the reasons I have sketched and for many many more that would take too long to list.

    But one factor shouldn’t be missed and that’s the pure and simple fact that many younger journos have little or no interest in football but in dozens of new sports and they look at the Old Firm as a remnant of tribalism that they have no wish to be tainted with and one in which both sides are as bad as each other.

    Hard for us older ones and also staunch supporters of either side to accept but society is changing on a broader level and the ‘culture’ associated with football to many is seen as negative and to be avoided. So, in a sense, I see many similarities between newspapers and football and old institutions which are in decline and if not terminal then they have lost their way and seem unlikely to find it again.

    I also praise the hundreds of Scottish journalists who day in and day out do their best to inform their communities and do their best to expose corruption and just because they aren’t doing it wrt to any footballing interest doesn’t devalue their efforts and principles.

    Sometimes the hardest thing for anyone to achieve is to be able to look outside their often self-created ‘bubble’ of behaviour and understanding and unearth possibly unpalatable home truths. I btw am no exception and one thing I believe is that it has to be a continuing process otherwise you lose the ability to view your beliefs in an objective fashion which usually slams the door closed on any possibility of change.


  10. ecobhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 11:32 am
    =========================
    Interesting analysis of where we are as regards the media. However an overall terminal decline over 20 years does not excuse the outrageous nonsense peddled in Rangers favour over the same period, or indeed the several assassinations in print Celtic and many people associated with them have taken. Even in the present day JIm Traynor is untouched by his former media colleagues, while Jock Brown on the other hand was taken apart almost daily, and IMO also helped to drive the Celtic fans against him.


  11. john clarke says:
    July 5, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    John – I think that’s a great idea to use FOI to ask questions of SportScotland.

    However, the Act only gives a right to the public to obtain recorded information held by Scottish public authorities. What you have done is essentially asked questions, or sought an opinion on a hypothetical scenario. You haven’t asked for recorded information. Consequently, it will be easy for the authority to dodge.

    It would be better to word it along the lines of:

    “I would like to see any recorded information that SportScotland holds showing what steps it took to ensure that the SFA was acting in adherence to its own articles of association before SportScotland made any financial grants to it.”

    You could also ask to see what the SFA said in its grant application to SportScotland.

    Hope this helps. It’s not intended as a criticism and I think it’s a great route to go down to try and get some information on the use of public funds.

    There’s more advice on how to frame information requests on the Scottish Information Commissioner’s website.


  12. Sugar Daddy
    It’s you that the trophy junkies desire .
    They thought Minty was one only to find it was really salt he was heaping on the gaping wound that was ragers 1872 bleeding cash all over the place till it flatlined .Then up popped CG (Frankenstien ) cobbled together a few old parts and pumped it full of propaganda and out walked a new monster complete with a shiny brass neck (that a blowtorch couldn’t redden ).aided and abetted by their servants in the SFA and SMSM .
    They will be puzzled however when Sevco reach the SPL and they are unable to field a standard of player that the old club could as Hector should be getting his share from Sevco .


  13. Sugar Daddy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 11:08 am

    For all the spivs, season ticket sales, dodgy invoices, clubs, companies, tape recordings, asset switches, mysterious shareholders, asbestos, succulent lamb, compliant football authorities, convoluted legal decisions, Charlotte, Yorkshire, Monaco, boardroom battles and luxury buses…nobody but nobody has espoused a coherent mid term business strategy to keep a Rangers afloat with a decent chance of success on the park.

    There is little hope of this story getting any better for T’Gers until somebody does. It has start with some pain and that means player, coaches and admin staff roles being lost to gain control of the cost base. However until they move on stage 5 of grief – Acceptance – it’s not going to happen.

    Many have yet to grasp what the financial reality entails. A decade or more of financially doped succes has bred a generation of season ticket holding trophy junkies. Paradoxically they are now the biggest obstacle to a brighter future down Govan way.
    —————————————————————————————————
    I agree with lots that you say but I have never been much of a believer in the stages of grief – I think individuals are probably too complex to follow a rigid pattern and although I recognise some of the stages I don’t think they necessarily come in any pre-ordained order.

    But my main reason for not accepting the Five Stages is that I don’t think ‘Denial’ is the first stage but for many I believe it is the ‘Courage’ to continue to the next day and then all the days that follow after being overwhelmed by devastating personal grief. And it takes a long time to come out of that stage and many days of personal grief and questioning.

    And therefore I think the key to any viable future for Rangers isn’t so much ‘Acceptance’ but ‘Courage’ and by that I mean the Courage to tell the Bears the Truth about the cuts that have to be made to firstly survive and then move on and very importantly to discard the ‘Supremacy’ ethos.

    No spiv is ever going to do that so in a way I believe it has to be a Rangers Man that does otherwise I doubt that it can be ‘sold’ and gain acceptance. It will cause a drop in support certainly in the short and possibly medium term but longer term support will grow IMO and that might be the time when even more courage is required to stay on the path chosen.

    Many Rangers supporters had a vision of how they saw their club progressing from SFL3 in solid footballing terms and they know only too well that a season has been thrown away. Many also fear that not only another season could go the same way but are bewildered by the squad being amassed.

    Of course there are problems with every theory and I honestly can’t think of a Rangers Man who would be able to fit the bill that I outline. Perhaps the answer is then just to bring in a total professional who doesn’t suddenly find on Ancestor Research that his great grannie’s first love was a Rangers supporter and he feels that’s why subconsciously he was always attracted to Rangers when he watched them from his cot as they played on telly.

    But who knows perhaps the Bears will wake up at some stage and actually want a professional with a proven track record to take control. And I have never ever dismissed Ashley from the scene although I think his track record has become tarnished to an extent.

    Things are currently beyond the influence of Bears to influence now that the bulk of the ST money is in so at this stage whether they accept or not will have little effect on events as they unfold IMO.


  14. upthehoops says:
    July 6, 2013 at 11:40 am
    ecobhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 11:32 am
    =========================
    Interesting analysis of where we are as regards the media. However an overall terminal decline over 20 years does not excuse the outrageous nonsense peddled in Rangers favour over the same period, or indeed the several assassinations in print Celtic and many people associated with them have taken. Even in the present day JIm Traynor is untouched by his former media colleagues, while Jock Brown on the other hand was taken apart almost daily, and IMO also helped to drive the Celtic fans against him.
    ========================================================================

    I make no excuses for biased media reporting and never will. However, I believe that sometimes the reasons things are done/happen are not as self-evident and one-dimensional as some believe and often it’s down to a melange of factors some of which remain hidden.

    Traynor IMO is intensely disliked by lots of non-sports journalists who have ever had the misfortune to deal with him and there is little regard for his journalistic ability. Sports journos are in a slightly more difficult position as he could be their boss after his Rangers shift ends and of course there are others who owe him some kind of ‘loyalty’ for advancing them. But he is a neanderthal and will go the way of his brethern.

    As I have said before we either sit and bewail press coverage of a former era – of by journalistic remnants of that time who don’t when to walk away – or we build alternative means of providing fair and objective reporting using the new technologies available to us. Sh*t happens and in the context of the West of Scotland we know the score but thankfully society is moving on and moving away from the old ways.

    Green re-ignited the torch and I worried about it dragging us backwards but I think his flame has sputtered and died and decent Bears who never trusted him anyway are glad to see the back of him. Btw I don’t actually believe that Green had any concept of the problems he could have caused and the real villain is the one who whispered the poison in his ear. I have no doubt who that individual is as I know him for what he is behind the facade he presents.

    However ‘what’s for you won’t go by you’ as my long-departed granny would sagely observe as she read the tea leaves.


  15. Caveat Emptor says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:44 am

    If we are to be perceived as a modern inclusive wee country, we have to grasp the nettle. Anything less will only compound the scandal.
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Couldn’t agree more and it’s what interests me in the topic and convinces me of the importance of attempting to expose the cover-up so we can move on.


  16. Ecobhoy
    Speaking from experience of the difference the very awareness that grief is a natural process with phases can make to folk who, until it touched their lives, were struggling to understand their feelings, I would not dismiss it either as a useful concept or its value. Where I would agree is that it is not linear, but few who use it as a map on a journey ever portray it that way.
    As to denial and courage, the courage comes from deciding to stay the new course that life has presented, but in the early days it is like being the survivor of a bomb blast where all the senses are replaced by one of ongoing pain that, without the grief map, might be seen as everlasting at that point to those enduring it.
    The bomb blast being faced by a swathe of the community is the loss of a whole way of thinking and being that reality has blown away. In spite of holding sway over the media, football governance, the justice system, the banking system and wherever else tendrils of influence reach, that way of working clearly no longer works or they would not be where they now are. In fact you could argue that is the reason why they are where they are.
    That is the bubble of unawareness that has burst. But folk want to hold on to what they know and believed in. Letting go is terrifying and that is where courage does come in, but only when the pain of holding on becomes so great that letting go becomes a form of relief.

    This wee story covers it for me: A guy falls over a cliff but grabs on to some tree roots and clings on for dear life. He starts to pray telling God he will do anything he asks of him if God will just save him.

    At this point the clouds part, a sunbeam lights up the scene and a voice says
    “You will do anything?”
    “Yes ANYTHING” cries the desperate man.
    ” OK” says God “On the count of three
    Let Go”.


  17. Ecobhoy 12.37

    If you contact me via tsfm I have some stuff I’d like your views on.


  18. Castofthousands says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:19 am
    ‘..there have been a select few journalists who have appearde to abide by their job description. ‘
    —–
    Of course, CoT, and thank you for reminding us all that these particular journos are to be excluded from the sweeping condemnation!


  19. dougthedon says:
    July 6, 2013 at 11:47 am
    ‘..Hope this helps. It’s not intended as a criticism and I think it’s a great route to go down —-‘
    —–
    Thank you, dtd.
    I’ll go back to the charge when I get a reply.
    And here’s an odd thing, incidentally.
    The automated acknowledgment of my email came from the SFA’s email address, even though my email was to sportscotland.enquiries@sportscotland.org.uk


  20. Danish Pastry says:
    July 5, 2013 at 1:39 pm

    ” A combination of the previous and present does sound a bit like ‘thousands of moolah’ 😀 ”
    ———————–
    Mullach was Irish gaelic for a (fortified) hill or promontery. I thought I should descend from my high horse to retake my seat in the stalls. At one time during RTC days my place was at the back of the theatre; standing room only. Now I feel I am residing within the body of the kirk. I anticipate in time I should find a seat where the senior posters are located and only comment occasionally rather than hollering an outburst at every twist of the plot.

    There is a time for renewal and just as I was once an observer, then became a contributor and was gradually intoxicated by the blog, so I hope that other readers will begin to post and similarly be drawn into proceedings. New contributors arrive regularly and as this is an open forum there is nothing to prevent an opinion, even if it turns out to be misplaced, being aired. Life’s rich pageant. As it parades before us we are engaged by each new processor.

    As for thousands of moolah: It is evident what the strive for wealth leads to; moral depravity. As someone said (bogsdollox?), it is the small things in life that make it bearable and sometimes wonderful. The blog is a small but important thing for many. I looked forward to being regailed by the opinions and analysis of old, current and new posters for some time to come.


  21. ecobhoy says:
    July 5, 2013 at 11:21 pm

    “And none taken.”
    ———————-
    I appreciate your information concerning the possible shareholders. What I was really driving at was why Drew’s search on Duedil and Companies House provided such scant information on RIFC & TRFCL. I had hoped that someone who is regularly required to interrogate such information could offer an explanation for the scarcity of data. It struck me as strange in the same way that it did Drew.


  22. ecobhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:12 am

    “My fear is that if CW is telling anywhere near the whole truth that the whole affair will become too ‘political’ and a discreet decision will be taken to narrow the scope of their enquiry…”
    ———————–
    I suspect there is every likelihood that BDO’s findings will be kicked into the long grass due to their implications. This is what a stagnant polity is apt to do.

    If I might indulge myself, I’d like to invoke the ‘parable of the rusty motorcycle’.

    I have a very old motorcycle and it suffered a serious mechanical problem some time back. I have the luxury/misfortune of having some time on my hands presently so decided to set about it and bring it back into service.

    I approached the task with some trepidation. For a while I put it off as I thought my efforts might be wasted. The old motorcycle lay decaying in my mind like a restless conscience. Then one day a couple of months ago my frame of mind was disposed to make a start.

    I never liked the though of dismantling the engine. Something that operates at 12,000 revs per minute. Doesn’t take much to wreck such a mechanism I knew. However this is what I had to do. In the process I made further difficulties for myself, despite following the instruction manual carefully. Eventually it was done. Not only that but whilst I was in there I did other things (grinding the valves, setting valve clearances, renovating the carburretors) that would make a positive difference to the final outcome.

    Having done all that I thought I should paint the exposed parts of the frame. More work. The electric wiring was ropey in places. More work. The petrol tank had rusted inside. More work.

    Well now I’ve done it all. Although there are a few more cosmetic items to attend to the fundamentals are now sound. I hope. In a day or two’s time I’ll turn the key in the ignition for the first time in years and it will either purr back into life or crunch into a metal grinding catastrophe. More work potentially but I’m up for it.

    The whole process has taken away my fear of performing this once thought difficult task. Even if it fails I am pretty sure I’ll find the problem and fix it.

    So the authorities may be content to let Scottish Football rust and decay and eventuall fall into misuse since to do otherwise would require much effort. However if they could measure themselves for the task and be prepared for likely setbacks then the eventual outcome could be very satisfying.

    As someone once sang. There’s nothing you can do that can’t be done.


  23. Eco

    “There’s never an elve about when you need one”

    Have you tried round my chip shop? 😛

    This comment was edited, just because I could!!!


  24. ecobhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 12:32 pm

    Green re-ignited the torch and I worried about it dragging us backwards but I think his flame has sputtered and died and decent Bears who never trusted him anyway are glad to see the back of him. Btw I don’t actually believe that Green had any concept of the problems he could have caused and the real villain is the one who whispered the poison in his ear. I have no doubt who that individual is as I know him for what he is behind the facade he presents.
    ================================================
    You intrigue me Ecobhoy, and personally I have it narrowed down to one of three people. Of course, it would be inappropriate for us to name names, but anyone who has watched this mess unfold would almost certainly narrow it to the three I’ve got.


  25. ecobhoy, an apology from me. 😳

    I derided your posts earlier in the week, now accept my apologies given your recent good work.

    And I commend the brevity of some of your comments! 😉


  26. Registered users should see an edit facilty on thir own posts. You have fifteen minutes to correct any mistakes 🙂
    Added a GUI for smilies :idea:. The Succulent Lamb icon :slamb: isn’t very good. I’ll try to sort it when I get back from holiday 🙁

    Meanwhile, back to the pool 🙂


  27. castofthousands
    Is this bike now the mechanical version of triggers broom
    :


  28. Markybhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 3:24 am
    However, while the people at PSC and myself share the same goals I do not think you can claim to say the same about yourself and the Celtic Board.
    ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
    I’ve never jumped out my seat when a director scored a last minute winner, for me its all about the team.
    Everyone in scottish football, Fans, Directors, SFA,SPL and the press know that Rangers were unfairly and illegally given a second chance but they are now in the proccess of blowing that as well, wouldnt it be a pity that when the bad guys finally destroy themselves that all the good guys had walked away?


  29. Spanishcelt says:
    July 6, 2013 at 4:46 pm

    I know what you mean.

    For me it’s all abut the club and what it stands for, rather than just the team though. In fact it’s not even just about the football. It’s about the links to the community, the charity work, the heritage etc.

    I’m sure loads of people feel that way about their own club. It means more to them than just football matches.

    Owners, shareholders, managers, players etc move on. The club and it’s heritage and traditions, it’s achievements and it’s legendary figures live on.


  30. @HirsutePursuit at 1:52pm on July 5th

    I think its true that we agree more than disagree on this.

    As I say though, my view is that if the Ticketus deal was breached by the administators, the administrators ultimately could have sought directions at that time that Ticketus were not to be allowed to insist on performance, and then treat the claim as a straightforward damages one in the CVA – thus compromising it.

    On the question of Ticketus and the CVA, there is evidence that Ticketus were denied voting rights by the end of the administration (which I’ll get to), but is there actually any evidence that they didn’t get a vote in the CVA?

    Following on our exchange of posts I’ve been doing a search, and haven’t been able to find anything which confirms the position one way or the other – can you refer me to anything?

    What I have been able to find are a number of quotes attributed to an anonymous “Ticketus spokesman” which (if true) suggest D&P did repudiate the Ticketus deal ahead of the CVA, and that Ticketus either accepted that repudiation (and/or were of the view that they had no alternative but to accept it.)

    “In response to the announcement, Ticketus confirmed it had received a notification of their intention to breach the agreement on Wednesday.
    A spokesman for the firm said “As far as we are concerned it is a formality that the deal will be breached and we become creditors of Rangers in a CVA.””

    http://news.stv.tv/west-central/101607-rangers-administrators-have-written-to-ticketus-to-terminate-25m-deal/

    “A Ticketus spokesman said: “Around the time of Mr Miller’s preferred bidder status we spoke to Mr Green, neither party reached any agreement and he went ahead with his bid.
    “Ticketus is now a creditor in a CVA and it is not involved in the future of the club in any way.””

    http://news.stv.tv/west-central/99709-ticketus-say-no-future-involvement-after-greens-rangers-bid-accepted/

    “A spokesman for Ticketus said that action was now its “main focus”, adding that while the firm’s representatives had met with Mr Green, both parties decided against joining forces.
    He said: “We had some talks with Charles Green quite a long time before his name was public. There was a mutual decision not to explore that relationship any further. We are just going to be a creditor in the CVA and we’re not really at the centre of this any more, compared to the times when we were looking to strike commercial deals with the bidders.
    “Our involvement is twofold now: firstly, we will be a creditor in a CVA.
    “Secondly, our main focus is the pursuit of the personal corporate guarantees that we had with Craig Whyte.””

    http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/rangers-takeover-ticketus-to-have-no-future-involvement-in-club-1-2294470

    These are more nor less contemporaneous with the CVA, whereas their initial response of 23rd March you quoted was made just after Lord Hodge delivered his judgement.

    I think the quote you refer to has to be read in the context of the rest of that press release anyway:

    “23 March 2012 Statement Response to court ruling
    Ticketus is issuing a statement following today’s decision by Lord Hodge not to grant the Administrators’ request for the Court to give them the right to tear up the ticket purchase agreement (the “contract”) Ticketus has with Rangers Football Club (“Rangers” or “the Club”). The legality of Ticketus’ contract was not an issue.
    The Court has made it clear today that the Ticketus contract cannot be breached unless there is substantial evidence that by doing so the Administrators are able to significantly improve returns for creditors and improve the chance of returning the Club to a going concern.
    Given the strength of the Blue Knights Consortium’s bid, and Ticketus’ role in this with its contract remaining valid and enforceable, we question the ability for this to happen.
    Ticketus’ position
    Ticketus has a duty to its investors to protect the investment that it currently has in the Club. As previously stated, we will do everything necessary to defend our position to ensure our contract is honoured and our investors’ interests are protected.
    With Ticketus as part of the solution, the Blue Knights Consortium, led by Paul Murray, can achieve a rapid resolution for the Club and provide it with a future that is free of unnecessary uncertainty. By incorporating Ticketus into their bid, the Consortium is uniquely able to secure this outcome. “

    It seems to me Ticketus at that stage were saying that D&P were unlikely to be able to repudiate the deal at all, since Ticketus’s involvement with The Blue Knights was conditional on the deal remaining, and – they infer – the Blue Knights bid would have produced the best results for creditors.

    On your quote from not 10 of Appendix 3 of the CVA proposal, again it’s probably best to refer to the whole of the note to make sense of what’s being said:

    “10. The Ticketus claim is estimated as per the principal sum outstanding. Ticketus final claim is to be determined, it may be higher if liquidated damages are due, or lower if their claim is found to not be valid against the Company.”

    I’ve not seen the Ticketus contract, but it seems to me that what’s being said there is that Ticketus may be entitled to more than just the principal sum – presumably on the basis that the contracts had a liquidated damages clause which may or may not be enforceable.

    The last part of the note again seems to me to emphasise that D&P believed the claim as a whole could potentially be struck out. For the reasons I’ve already given (primarily it’s what they said to Lord Hodge) I think that was on the basis of financial assistance.

    One final point in favour of that can also be found in the Administrators’ report of 27th September, which deals with the basis upon which Ticketus were denied voting rights in the administration by D&P:

    “Ticketus
    13.9 The Joint Administrators have continued to investigate the claims made by Ticketus in the administration. The evidence available to the Joint Administrators suggests that the claims made by Ticketus against the Company are unenforceable. The Joint Administrators have taken advice from both solicitors and counsel in both England and Scotland on the validity or otherwise of the claims. The advice received is to the effect that there are a number of grounds on which the claims can be disputed in full. Following the legal advice received, the Joint Administrators consider that the claims made by Ticketus should be rejected in full for voting purposes. Ticketus have been given notice of this decision.”

    I think what’s important here is that D&P are saying Ticketus made claims, but they believe Ticketus’s claims are unenforceable and can be disputed in full. It’s on that basis they have rejected Ticketus’s voting rights. This quite clearly isn’t just referring to Lord Hodge’s decision, since Lord Hodge’s determination that Ticketus didn’t acquire any rights over the seats etc doesn’t mean that Ticketus’s claim can be disputed in full.

    And, by that stage, they certainly aren’t saying Ticketus had no voting rights because of a supposed refusal to accept the repudiation. We’re well past the refusal of the CVA and we are about to head to liquidation, so it’s clear performance will never be enforced and Ticketus can only have a damages claim by then.

    I think it can only be the financial assistance argument that’s being referred to, and I think D&P have been consistent in their view on that since the early stages of the administration.

    On a different note – how do I put quotes into “boxes,” as you do, it would certainly make reading a post like this one easier…


  31. Castofthousands says:
    July 6, 2013 at 2:04 pm
    5 0 Rate This

    If I might indulge myself, I’d like to invoke the ‘parable of the rusty motorcycle’ …
    ———

    Nice one. But what a lot of bother. You could consider the newco route 🙂

    I have a Chinese copy of a Honda Rebel. It has none of the history of the Honda, but continues the spirit of this little 250. There are no mechanical problems, no rust, gets almost 30km/litre, and has an updated water-cooled engine. Now there are newcos and newcos, but this is a high-quality bike, considering its origin. It’s also debt-free, for me, since it was purchased for cash. It’s a lean, though not mean, machine. In the UK it’s marketed by AJS I believe, however, they don’t call it an AJS or a Honda, they know it’s a newco Rebel, so it sells under its own name, a Regal Raptor. Strikes me though, that if the Chinese manufacturers had tried to pass it off as a genuine Rebel, they would have come in for some pretty withering critique, unless, of course, they had the motorcycke journalists in their pocket. Fortunately though, our Chinese brothers, copycats that they are, did not try to fake the Honda logo, neither would they have been allowed to.

    @ecobhoy, I’m not sure nisser and elves are interchangable. Here at least, an elve is more akin to a fairy, nisser are gnome-like characters that live in the loft and who tend to be rather unhelpful, especially at Christmastime. My advice is: avoid nisser, and check everything a fairy tells you against available facts 😉


  32. Duplesis says:
    July 6, 2013 at 5:11 pm
    ——————————–
    In response to : …
    HirsutePursuit says:
    July 5, 2013 at 1:52 pm
    ———————————
    Great analysis guys , but something still is’nt sitting right for me ….. ❓
    can’t put my finger on it yet … and of course it could just be me ! … 😳

    The audio between CW and D&P … believe it was the 6th June 2012 audio was quite illuminating and i am sure that most of this was discussed during those recordings including from what I recall seemed to be an admission of Financial Assistance … would be worth reviewing again with respect to your post. 💡

    Other point that I keep wondering about is the Poison Pill option or as Web3Dlaw described … the Double Poison Pill ploy ….

    http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/rangers-in-crisis-the-hunt-for-whyte-october-and-a-pretty-poison-pill-woman/

    At Last …… the promised Edit feature .. TU TSFM


  33. YOURHAVINGALAUGH says:
    July 6, 2013 at 4:41 pm

    “Is this bike now the mechanical version of triggers broom”
    ————————-
    It retains the vast majority of its original trademarks and the mileage is genuine.


  34. I read thoughts and conjectures on here avidly, often regarding the death of the Oldco, indeed I often pontificate as well. I try to follow the finest legal arguments and make sense of the conundrums of Charlotte. My opinion, from afar, has been that Liquidation equals demise and good riddance too.
    But I was in Glasgow today and I think I have been wrong.
    Thousands of people baying for my blood. Roads closed, buses diverted, shops and pubs shuttered, police mobilzed. All so a vast section of the populace can voice their demand for no nuns and no priests and no rosary beads. In Glasgow. Today. 2013.
    It saddens me, and yes it frightens me, but so little has changed. We can argue for rigorous application of rules, argue over the articles of assosciation, discuss points of law. But as I think Lincoln said, we cant change hearts and attitudes.
    Nothing has died. Maybe my hope.


  35. Danish Pastry says:
    July 6, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    “Nice one. But what a lot of bother. You could consider the newco route 🙂 ”
    —————————
    I think I am steeped in the Jim Traynor school of historic theology. Despite the grief, the history is everything. Maintaining that history is far more inconvenient in many ways that making a brand new purchase. It is a quaint nostalgic attitude that looks not to convenience but is all to do with heart.

    We make great esteem of trivial things. One day you will look back nostagically at your Newco bike and it will bring back all sorts of distant memories. However this will only happen once you have put in the miles. All things were a Newco at one time. Then much later they all became an Oldco. Such is life’s circle.


  36. Rangers manager Ally McCoist deserves a knighthood, insists Brora counterpart Davie Kirkwood
    THE Ibrox manager did an amazing job in holding Rangers together during their financial crisis last year says his old team-mate.
    .
    .
    What can one say?
    Perhaps he can take over LHs role after he retires to England in the fall?
    Or maybe to the House of Lords?
    Privy Council Beckons
    Knight Garter?
    .
    DR needs to get a grip on the `idea` stuff they`re throwin` out – what did he hold together exactly?
    Blimey


  37. Delbhoy
    I ventured into the Merchant City area as I do of a weekend ,lots of good bars and restaurants have developed over the years,this has given glasgow an added edge to its city of culture,unfortunately as you say this area is blighted annualy due to a certain sectarian culture being allowed to parade through this area ,now this is not for this blog ,but ,it has relations to the way the City of Glasgow has accepted the dome head syndrome,i know what you are thinking ,but do you know what I am thinking ,anyway ,some prominet places did not open as the normaly do on a saturday,why ,I know it is not related to our SFA ,but if CF can pull rabbits out of a hat,she should have been in Glasgow today to see the biggest collection of squirrels ever parading about a city,these places would be normaly closed by GDC for being found having rodents on the premises ,now I am not being offside here but as a idea as a money earner why not allow the parades to walk to Murray Park each year enjoy the atmosphere of being on hallowed ground pumping much needed funds into the club that need it and keeping control over their future,only saying ,got to go as the wife has got this movie I have got to watch.
    Have a nice night all
    Brenda we need a clock on the AIM returns


  38. YOURHAVINGALAUGH says:
    July 6, 2013 at 9:09 pm
    Brenda we need a clock on the AIM returns

    ++++++
    I posted my exchange of emails with AIM compliance about a week ago. I pointed out to them that RIFC appeared to be in breach of their reporting requirements under AIM rules. I’ve not had a reply yet, if anything arrives, I’ll post it.


  39. Gaz says:

    July 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Drew Peacock says:
    July 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    Oh no, not by a long way.

    Ticketus had bought a whole load of tickets at a discounted amount, over four season. Some of the discounts were absolutely ridiculous for the later years.

    I believe their normal discount for other clubs, with the “payday loan” setup was something like 25%. It was higher with Rangers. If memory serves they paid over something in the region of £18m, however the total value of the tickets concerned was about £27m (based on face value). So on average Ticketus were getting a discount of arounf a third.

    Remember this was effecticvely a corporate Wonga deal, a last option.
    ========================================================

    Ticketus advanced money for tickets based on a selling price of £413.5, discounted by 20% per annum. They bought 23k tickets each year for 4 years.

    The 2011 advance was only short term and the discount was 4%.

    2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80% and rangers paid back £415.3

    2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80%*80% (64%)and rangers paid back £415.3.

    Ticketus were getting a return of 25% per annum.

    As a lender (or someone who purchases tickets ahead as they would claim to be) the return is tempting especially with tax breaks form EIS. Ticketus seemed to want to fill their boots although there were some on the investment Committee who were not convinced.

    Mostly big returns come at the expense of risk. Ticketus had a client who was buying a debt ridden Football Club (Company). He needs a large amount at short repayment terms and lumbers the target with this burden. Rangers had severe cash flow problems and it was known to Mr Bryan at Ticketus that some of the board were hostile to Whyte and that moves were afoot to remove them. In addition he was aware that Lloyds had worries about the deal. Why did Ticketus advance a large amount of money?

    If Whyte reduced costs to closer to income he would lose supporters for a poorly performing team, Ticketus needed these people to buy the tickets which would pay them back. biggest expense was players and little chance of reducing the cost without impacting results.

    Did they know that Whyte was prepared to try to get HMRC to accept a pittance in settlement of all the looming tax assessments. If they did would they ask what would happen if HMRC said “no thank you”.

    Did they think that their deal would survive the next step – Administration. It might just have worked but was dependent on the 75% majority accepting. They may have believed that HMRC only had the wee tax case and some bits and bobs so even if HMRC didn’t agree and most others did the CVA could go through and with the debts all but gone there would be cash flow to return the money to Ticketus. The issue here is that HMRC had the big tax case and if they were not shown as Creditors (thius having the ability to scupper the CVA) or this it could still have crystalised subsequently and knocked the whole thing for six. They probably wouldn’t expect that Whyte would withhold huge sumes from HMRC, giving them 25% plus without the disputed big tax case.

    So, there was another possibility – Liquidation. In this scenario the Ticketus deal was worthless.

    Yes but, they got personal guarantees from Craig Whyte.

    What was going on? These are supposedly serious professionals and they get into this mess.


  40. Den says:
    July 6, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    “2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80% and rangers paid back £415.3

    2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80%*80% (64%)and rangers paid back £415.3.”
    ——————–
    Was the 2012 shown twice a typographic error in your post Den?


  41. The endgame is the most interesting thing about the whole affair.
    In a game of chess, a player will try to ‘look’ 12-14 moves ahead of each of his opponent’s moves.
    This is informed by his/her own response to each move along the way.
    A player doing something extremely stupid can actually be quite clever because his opponent has not factored stupidity.
    In any event, the only thing to look for in the RFC/sevco/TRFC is who collects cash? Who walks away with more money than they put in?
    What happened to Mr Prior’s look under the hood?


  42. newtz says:
    July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm

    “Other point that I keep wondering about is the Poison Pill option or as Web3Dlaw described … the Double Poison Pill ploy ….”
    ————————-
    Taken in tandem with Den’s post above, I’d offer the following conjecture.

    CW does Ticketus deal thus loading the club up with debt. Then he loads it up with some more debt courtesy of PAYE and NIC. CVA may have been a consideration at some point but I’ll discount it for the purpose of this particular piece of speculation.
    So debt ridden club with big tax case hanging over it attracts few bidders. The Administrators have been in on the shenanigans from day one so they can paint a dour picture to scare away the few interested parties that do surface, ably assisted by the SFA.

    Club liquidates.

    Ticketus get a judgement against CW.

    CW has no funds. Except…

    A claim over Ibrox et al via Sevco 5088.

    Ticketus accept assets, trademarks (and history?) in return for cancelling CW’s IOU.

    Ticketus investors get club for the value shown in Den’s post.

    Whats not to like?

    The big tax case.

    It gets attributed to RFC(IL). 😎


  43. davethelotion
    IMO all the money that has came through Sevco has went to paying off the creditors of the dead club that just were not willing to walk away .
    I predict that once a certain amount of this years ST cash has came in that will see the last of Ticketus in this farce .
    When the Admin was on going Ticketus were running from one preferred bidder to another then we were led to believe that they were nothing to do with the candidate that won the day .Aye right .
    The problem with Ticketus being known to be involved is that the world record breaking support would never buy a ST ,they would have the mother of all boycotts were even a steward would be cursed for entering the infamous Ibrokes .
    So with that in mind Ticketus would be wise to make sure their involvement was never reported but I believe Wattie /Sally /Traynor and Murray and the peepil in place .
    Apart from Ticketus who else has been spouting about losing £20m plus from the death of ragers 1872 ,A certain DK who is ,in a bit of a quandary himself by having genuine Van Gouehs hanging on his wall when working for a few quid per month


  44. Danish Pastry says:
    July 6, 2013 at 5:43 pm

    @ecobhoy, I’m not sure nisser and elves are interchangable. Here at least, an elve is more akin to a fairy, nisser are gnome-like characters that live in the loft and who tend to be rather unhelpful, especially at Christmastime. My advice is: avoid nisser, and check everything a fairy tells you against available facts 😉

    ============================================================================

    Ah but you have always got to check the history 😉


  45. Delbhoy says:
    July 6, 2013 at 6:53 pm
    90 0 i Rate This
    I read thoughts and conjectures on here avidly, often regarding the death of the Oldco, indeed I often pontificate as well. I try to follow the finest legal arguments and make sense of the conundrums of Charlotte. My opinion, from afar, has been that Liquidation equals demise and good riddance too.
    But I was in Glasgow today and I think I have been wrong.
    Thousands of people baying for my blood. Roads closed, buses diverted, shops and pubs shuttered, police mobilzed. All so a vast section of the populace can voice their demand for no nuns and no priests and no rosary beads. In Glasgow. Today. 2013.
    It saddens me, and yes it frightens me, but so little has changed. We can argue for rigorous application of rules, argue over the articles of assosciation, discuss points of law. But as I think Lincoln said, we cant change hearts and attitudes.
    Nothing has died. Maybe my hope.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Haven’t posted on here for a long time and rarely read now to be honest but thought I’d check in tonight. Can I say well done to Delbhoy for cutting through the fog. The basic behaviours behind the whole RFC issue have nothing to do with sport and no amount of discussion around regulations apparently in place – well intentioned and well researched though they are – are ever going to amount to a great deal in my view. For answers we must look elsewhere.

    A perhaps gloomy post from Delbhoy. Also a most perceptive one.


  46. Den says:
    July 6, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    In order to qualify for the tax breaks there are limits to the activities they can take part in. Lending money isn’t one of them.

    There are also ramifications in relation to VAT, specifically the ability to reclaim input tax.

    They advance purchased tickets at a discount.

    They also believed that their rights to those tickets survived any insolvency event. It was only when that was argued in the Court of Session that they were told that wasn’t the case in Scotland because the nature of those rights was different in Scotland.


  47. Castofthousands says:

    July 6, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    0

    0

    Rate This

    Den says:
    July 6, 2013 at 9:41 pm

    “2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80% and rangers paid back £415.3

    2012 tickets were sold by Rangers at £415.3 *80%*80% (64%)and rangers paid back £415.3.”
    ——————–
    Was the 2012 shown twice a typographic error in your post Den?
    =============================================================

    It was an error the second one should be 2013, 2014 would be 80% of 2013 figure.


  48. Since Sir Walter of Cardigan has accepted the position of head honcho over all affairs relating to the daily/weekly/monthly/annuall/byannual/triannual/anyannual affairs the silence has been so loud that we must all accept that all is ok ,no comments from our sms ,the stench is not down to the temperatures going up ,is the clatty mob that propose to be journo’s ,hope they are single ,need to wash their own . try and redeem some street cred ,you know its going to catch up ,make a name for yourself that your kids will be proud of ,the proverbial is about to hit ,October in all probabilities,if clyde go with another SSB and with the same croud ,well ,it will , they dont have the access to any talent that can converse with an intelligent caller ,eh shug .I need to recharge my Balvenie.


  49. Nothing has died. Maybe my hope.

    yes it has, their temple, their church, their monolith, their meeting place, their defining emblem, HAS DIED, and I for one won’t allow them to EVER forget it.
    On a side note, I am a Scot loving and raising a family in Southern Ireland, no ranjurs taps, nae fenian this taig that, no disgusting bile, I am an eternally happy !


  50. For me this sunny Saturday, with its audible backdrop of drums and shrill whistles, somehow had lost its edge compared with previous years. You see, this year I’ve been undergoing an education in how a facade is maintained. I’m beginning to understand that you need to realise just how big the lie can be before you truly recognise it for the lie that it is.

    The guys in the park with their gers tops tied round their waste, having a ‘swally’ are the same guys they were yesterday and will be the same guys again tomorrow. Its like New Year when a truce is called amongst everyone only the exact opposite. For a day they get to feel empowered. They get to feel magnificent. They get to be the peepil. Tomorrow they’ll wake up with a hangover, kick the dog and go to the shops to buy some rolls and a paper. Today will soon be forgotten. As if it never actually happened.

    Me, I had a nice relaxed day. Apart from some minor mechanical issues. I don’t think I intentionally attempted to dominate anyone. I tried not to scowl at the guy in the Rangers top who was obviously brim full of his own self worth. All the worlds a stage and for one day a section of the community played at being king of the castle. When they wake up in their tenement room tomorrow there will be no ermine gown draped across a gilt clad chair. There will be no velvet slippers to accommodate the Royal pied’s. Just a hangover, a troublesome hound and the same basic human hunger that afflicts us all.

    You couldn’t make it up but if you did, that is what it would look like.


  51. castofthousands
    You wont get many replies tonight ,no need to explian why .


  52. Mark at 11:46,
    That’s kind of my point. Years living abroad, Ireland among other countries, have given me a tolerance, and an expectation of tolerance, which I presumed to be the norm.
    Scotland is my country, football is my passion. Its not that I don’t recognise Scottish Football anymore, more that I recognise it all too well.

    Thereek
    Thanks, and I didn’t intend to sound gloomy, only realistic. But of course we should stay and fight, with solid reasonable argument, debate and inclusion of all.


  53. Spanishcelt 4:46pm
    Clearly, we have differing vistas of who the good and bad guys are in this pantomime.
    Celtic’s silence at many key junctures over the past year have convinced me that they are as unwilling to let go of their “old” partner (and all the sideshows that entails) as many of the support are.
    As for the bad guys finally destroying themselves, well, that’s one Aesop Fable too many for me.


  54. So there is a chance that Hearts may go down the Newco path.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23212493

    Presumably that means they get placed into the lowest division of the SPFL as per Sevco? Or should they be treated as per the real rules and have to start again with no history as THOM?

    Is this case different in any way? Is the fact that exit from administration in a realistic time scale is improbable due to the complications with the shareholding a reasonable excuse and an exception could be argued?

    Discuss…


  55. The problem now is that for teams to be treated correctly then it reinforces the view that sevco were treated advantageously. But, the alternative is worse.

    Scottish football is dead IMO unless sevco die and come back (with 50k support they have to) the right way


  56. Castofthousands says:
    July 7, 2013 at 12:22 am

    ===========================

    I can understand that, I might not approve of the idea that it is built around hatred of others and a sense of superiority over others. It is horrendous and puerile but I do understand it.

    What I struggle with is the highly intelligent people who also take part. People like prominent Queen’s council. What is their motivation, what do they get out of it. It cannot be blind and merely who they are for them. it has to be a considered decision. That baffles me.


  57. Para Handy says:
    July 7, 2013 at 8:11 am

    I’m sorry but the “Newco path” is simply a euphemism for being liquidated. There is no “Newco path”, it was invented to facilitate the notion that an entity could survive liquidation.

    Sevco were not placed in the lowest division of Scottish senior football. They applied to join it and were accepted. It was a new application, after having been rejected by the SPL.

    I’m afraid that is just an extension of two pieces of propaganda (amongst many) that Charles Green et al put out there and the media supported. That Rangers could survive liquidation and that they were relegated to the SFL3 as a punishment.

    Hearts are simply discussing the “newco scenario” in the hope that their own fans will accept what the Rangers fact accepted, that in some way football clubs in Scotland are different from every other business and that they can survive a failed administration, liquidation and being wound up.

    I can’t blame them for it and don’t decry them, as it would be the best way to get as much support as possible. However I don’t accept the position, it has no real basis.


  58. Para Handy says:
    July 7, 2013 at 8:11 am
    ———————————————————————-
    What I take from Mr Birchs statement is that he’s hopeful of raising enough cash to last until January.
    Should the SFA be wary of issuing a licence to Hearts for next season?.
    Once again kudos to the fans for putting their hands into their pockets again.


  59. Castofthousands says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:19 pm
    —————————————————————-
    😛


  60. Markybhoy says:
    July 7, 2013 at 3:54 am
    ‘Clearly, we have differing vistas of who the good and bad guys are in this pantomime.’
    ——

    The knighted majority shareholder of a now dead club is no pantomime villain.

    He is a twisted, evil rogue who, by actually destroying his own club, has
    – come destroyed Scottish Football administration as any kind of an honest business,
    – has subverted and perverted whole tranches of media-men,
    – has lied to and double-crossed his own business partners,
    – has thrown the property of his dead club into the garbage bin to be mauled and clawed over by rats who are every bit as instinctively corrupt as he himself
    -has done his best to cheat tax-payers out of substantial sums
    -has, without scruple or a word of apology or regret, inflicted financial loss on hundreds of people

    This villain even now may very well be the master-mind behind a huge scam.

    No other club owner comes anywhere near the sheer wickedness of the knight or of the various varieties of vermin his actions have caused to crawl from the sewers.
    Facts are chiels that winna ding, no matter from what perspective they are viewed.


  61. Castofthousands says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:19 pm
    ———————————
    Funny you should say that …. 😎

    ———– worth repeating ———-

    ( In reponse to newtz post July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm ) ….. regarding Double Pill Theorey ….

    @CoT said ….
    Taken in tandem with Den’s post above, I’d offer the following conjecture.

    CW does Ticketus deal thus loading the club up with debt. Then he loads it up with some more debt courtesy of PAYE and NIC. CVA may have been a consideration at some point but I’ll discount it for the purpose of this particular piece of speculation.
    So debt ridden club with big tax case hanging over it attracts few bidders. The Administrators have been in on the shenanigans from day one so they can paint a dour picture to scare away the few interested parties that do surface, ably assisted by the SFA.

    Club liquidates.

    Ticketus get a judgement against CW.

    CW has no funds. Except…

    A claim over Ibrox et al via Sevco 5088.

    Ticketus accept assets, trademarks (and history?) in return for cancelling CW’s IOU.

    Ticketus investors get club for the value shown in Den’s post. ( Den says:…… July 6, 2013 at 9:41 pm )

    Whats not to like?

    The big tax case.

    It gets attributed to RFC(IL).
    ————————————–

    #WhatABoutery at it’s very best ……. but IMO …. A very likely scenario ….. 😯


  62. john clarke says:
    July 7, 2013 at 9:37 am

    ==========================

    I agree.

    If there is a pantomime villain it is Craig Whyte. He is almost like a caricature invented to play the part.

    It’s actually interesting how many Rangers fans blame him for all of their problems, and how few place the blame on the man who owned and operated the club for the two decades in which the damage to Rangers, and every other part of Scottish football took place.

    That bit has worked beautifully. However to be fair they could pretty much control it.

    It is when they relied on other people that things started to go wrong. Issues like not getting into the SPL. They clearly were assured by the authorities that it would happen. They misread the clubs and more importantly the fans going along with it. The real problems in the Rangers reconstruction started at that point. Not just the cash but the players leaving and the perception of continuity.


  63. john clarke says:
    July 5, 2013 at 11:17 pm
    —————————————————–
    JC, it is confirmed SFA are in receipt of millions of pounds of tax payers money.

    Some may take a view it would be unreasonable or unjustifiable for SFA not to fully respond to fair & reasonable Information Request [s] on this basis.

    The UK ICO & Scottish IC increasingly takes a positive view of openness & transparency for all Organisations / Entities, regularly noting this is the only & best way forward, particularly with regard to Public Funds.

    Information Requests by email or letter do not require to be noted as ‘Information Requests’.
    Nor does an explanation require to be provide why you want the information.

    Dear SFA,

    I am writing to SFA as the historic, cultural, indefatigable cornerstone of Scottish Football.
    I confirm it is not my intention to distract SFA staff from day to day duties.

    Please confirm the current and historic funding received from Scottish Government or any other Public Funds source.
    Best practice usually confirms at least 6 years fiscal notes are available.

    Please provide this information as soon as possible,

    Yours faithfully,

    *** If they refuse to provide this info, I would fall off my chair.

    Your next email after they confirm the funds would be…………..As SFA has confirmed in receipt of over £5 mil of Public Funds, I request further information…………………..

    Ps, I’ve got previous with ICO & SIC.
    😎


  64. Newco is simply an abbreviation of New Company, we all know that but the SMSM like to endorse the spin that it is something different. We are supposed to allow them the claim that it is a complicated continuation of the business and that they have simply restructured.
    I believe that Green, Whyte and the current dysfunctional board at newco, missed the opportunity to come clean and simply and honestly launch their club as what the rest of us know it to be, a new football club,playing at the same venue as their predecessors. The majority of their fan base, whilst being upset at their loss, would have got behind the new manifestation with the same vigour as before. They would also have been allowed to mourn their loss and not have to expend unnecessary time and energy trying to defend the myth that is being promoted.
    We would have welcomed the new club, as they attracted large crowds and attempted to climb up the leagues. There would have been emotional ties to the club that they had once been and we could have accepted the nostalgic association to it. However, what we have now is a campaign by all and sundry to try to convince the rest of us, that the newco have been unfairly punished and that administration followed by liquidation was simply an administrative process that allowed them to cleanse themselves of unwanted debt. If there is an insolvency event at newco, will we all have to accept that it is only part of the same restructuring process?


  65. Sam says:
    July 7, 2013 at 10:34 am
    ‘.JC, it is confirmed SFA are in receipt of millions of pounds of tax payers money.’
    —-
    Noted, Sam, thank you.


  66. The FOI(S) Act only covers public authorities for the purposes of that Act.

    So a request to the SFA under that Act is pretty much pointless.

    A request to someone else who is a public authority for the purposes of the Act may provide some information. The trick would be to find an appropriate body to make the request to. If the SFA is in receipt of public funds then a request to the public authority which provided those funds may be more fruitful, though how much they will know about the day to day operations of the SFA is another question.

    Schedule 1 to the Act provides details

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2002/13/schedule/1


  67. TommyB says:
    July 7, 2013 at 10:48 am

    If there is an insolvency event at newco, will we all have to accept that it is only part of the same restructuring process?
    ==========================

    I didn’t accept the first propaganda exercise, I’m certainly not going to accept it if it happens again.

    I won’t be accepting it if it happens to Hearts, or to anyone else.

    As I said I do not decry any supporter of those clubs who have emotional ties and wish to consider it the same “club” because that is what their heart (no pun intended) tells them. That is a different matter.


  68. Gaz says:
    July 7, 2013 at 8:54 am

    “I can understand that, I might not approve of the idea that it is built around hatred of others and a sense of superiority over others. It is horrendous and puerile but I do understand it.”
    ————————-
    To get all psychological, I think its a symptom of self loathing. By externalising the bad feelings and projecting them onto others they are briefly freed from their internal turmoil. We all suffer spasms of doubt and question what we should be doing with our lives. It is part of a natural condition. Externalising such feelings means you never actually deal with the issues you should be facing up to. You can pretend everything is okay. Then a huge calamity strikes that you are completely ill-equipped to deal with.

    As for the intelligensia, they get to be part of disenfranchised part of the community. Not an advantageous position but they are big fish in a wee pond. The peepil are acclimatised to digesting the dogma and so are preprogrammed to do as they’re told. Great for a 19th century industrial revolution but in the information age it is the instinct of a lemming.

    Fundamentally we’re all caught up in dogma. Stepping outside of its safe confines puts you in a lonely place. It was ever the case. By trying to understand it I think you relieve the distress in yourself that such behaviour can cause. Once you know the wizard of oz is just a clever old guy behind a curtain the world is never quite the same place.


  69. CW thought that the wages were too high at Oldco
    CG thought that the wages were too high at Sevco
    MM has maintained a dignified silence
    Mr Prior thought the wages were too high at TRFC:-)
    CG has repeated his claim that wages are too high
    Mr Stock bridge is. rumoured to be taking a pay cut
    Shareholders, supporters and, most importantly, staff are being prepared for redundancies to cut costs.
    Meanwhile, this was posted by ‘North Red’ yesterday. NB it’s a repost from gersnet.

    is Iain Morgan one of the biggest investors in the club? who is this person? if iain morgan is a big investor, why has nobody heard of him? is he a minimum investor? if hes not on the board or a big investor, then why is this man drawing a few bob out of the club?? is iain morgan a familiar name to rangers fans? I would doubt it very much… but courtesy of a certain Brian Stockbridge, he has been filling his boots with the IPO cash, since February…. this is not a fantasy story, but hard facts… check the guy out, check his companies out, check his credentials….. why does his company use a maildrop address in Dubai for his affairs? Active Management Services.ae

    also… Active Corporate.com… another of the bold morgans companies…. Iain Arthur Morgan…. could go on and on about this guy.. its very simple to check him out.
    The story about Green in the Sun is fairly accurate when it comes to an impending financial crisis…. its coming back and the fans are not wanting to take it on.

    Theres a mr Anthony Woods… of APM Contracts ltd who likes to dip the the pockets of the club… this company is taking on a variety of roles within the club, jobs that have not been tendered for in the open market, again, a friend of a certain Mr Stockbridge, who is a friend of Mr Iain Morgan, who is also a friend of a Mr George Angus who happened to work for Iain Morgan but is now a Rangers Employee in the upper echelons of the club, without the job ever being advertised… and again having a free for all when it comes to taking on work and taking out cash from the club… these particular men and companies I mention are just the tip of the iceberg, which is going to melt very very quickly…..
    I urge the fans to be a weeeee bit vigilant when it comes to these people.. check them out and check their positons within the club, check these companies out and their track records….not good viewing…
    oh, and if you happen to see the club accounts at some point, see if theres any IPO cash left, because im quite sure that the pile has been battered into buy these guys… like a big sweetie shop, these guys have been filling their pockets and leaving the wrappers behind……

    The poster signed off with the claim that the DR is sitting on a story about Brian Stock bridge.


  70. Gaz says:
    July 7, 2013 at 10:55 am
    ————————————————————-
    Totally see & note your post.

    The argument is, if an Entity is in receipt of over £5 million of Public Funds [tax payers money], how on earth can same not be held to Public Account?

    Could be very wrong but I think they [SFA] would find it very difficult to argue away not providing information as requested.

    If SFA refuse to provide the information, the non-disclosure looks worse.

    With this level of funding, this Organisation is in all but name an Agency of the Scottish Government.


  71. John Clarke @ 9:37am 7 july

    Re: SDM

    He is The Knight in Rusting Armour


  72. davythelotion says:
    July 6, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    The endgame is the most interesting thing about the whole affair.
    In a game of chess, a player will try to ‘look’ 12-14 moves ahead of each of his opponent’s moves.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————–
    jonnyod says:
    July 6, 2013 at 10:31 pm
    ———————————
    @jonny ….. I’m gonna highlight two partial statements from your post ….

    The problem with Ticketus being known to be involved …..
    Apart from Ticketus who else has been spouting about losing £20m plus from the death of ragers ….
    ——————————–

    So like CoT did earlier ….. take these two partials together and we might be getting …. (just) the smallest of a glimpse of the bigger picture …..

    So along with TU (think Octopus) …. who else where the big losers from the death of RFC …. ?

    Try St james Place ….. try AWD Chase ….
    Now look at current Institional investors ….
    try Cazenove Capital Management Ltd @ 3.76%
    try Artemis Investment Management LLP @ 6.58%

    now back to davythelotion says ….

    @davy @jonny …. these are Big players …. they deal with these sort of problems in their own way … quietly …. but diligently ……they will recoup ….. CG was the Ideal Front Man …. yet he was also a liability …. he broke the circle ! …. he got greedy …. he paid the price …. Watch Stockbridge !

    #SuperSonicWahatAboutery to start Murray Sunday

    Hmmm …. I’m luvin it

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