Good Evening.
As we ponder the historic vote to create a new Governing body to oversee Scottish League football, I cannot help but wonder what brilliant minds will be employed in the drawing up of its constitution, rules, memorandum and articles of association?
Clearly, Messrs Doncaster, Longmuir and even Mr Regan as the CEO of the SFA will be spending many hours with those dreaded folk known simply as “ The Lawyers” in an attempt to get the whole thing up and running and written down in the course of a few short weeks.
In truth, that scares me.
It scares me because legal documentation written up in a hurry or in a rush is seldom perfect and often needs amendment—especially when the errors start to show! The old adage of beware of the busy fool sadly applies.
It also scares me because the existing rules under which the game is governed are not, in my humble opinion, particularly well written and seem to differ in certain material respects from those of UEFA. Even then, adopting the wording and the approach of other bodies is not necessarily the way to go.
I am all in favour of some original thought– and that most precious and unusual of commodities known as common sense and plain English.
Further, the various licensing and compliance rules are clearly in need of an overhaul as they have of late produced what can only be best described as a lack of clarity when studied for the purposes of interpretation. Either that or those doing the studying and interpreting are afflicted with what might be described as tortuous or even tortured legal and administrative minds.
If it is not by now clear that the notion of self-certification on financial and other essential disclosure criteria necessary to obtain a footballing licence (whether European or domestic) is a total non-starter — then those in charge of the game are truly bonkers.
Whilst no governing body can wholly control the actions of a member club, or those who run a club, surely provisions can be inserted into any constitution or set of rules that allows and brings about greater vigilance and scrutiny than we have at present—all of course designed to do nothing other than alert the authorities as early as possible if matters are not being conducted properly or fairly.
However, the main change that would make a difference to most of the folk involved in the Scottish game – namely the fans— would be to have the new rules incorporate a measure which allowed football fans themselves to be represented on any executive or committee.
Clearly, this would be a somewhat revolutionary step and would be fought against tooth and nail by some for no reason other than that it has simply not been done before—especially as the league body is there to regulate the affairs of a number of limited companies all of whom have shareholders to account to and the clubs themselves would presumably be the shareholders in the new SPFL Ltd.
Then again to my knowledge Neil Doncaster is not a shareholder in The SPL ltd– is he?
I can hear the argument that a fan representative on a league body might not be impartial, might be unprofessional, might be biased, might lack knowledge or experience, and have their own agenda and so on—just like many chairmen and chief executive officers who already sit on the committees of the existing league bodies.
Remember too that the SFA until relatively recently had disciplinary committees made up almost exclusively of referees. I don’t think anyone would argue that the widening of the make up of that committee has been a backward step.
However, we already have fan representation at clubs like St Mirren and Motherwell, and of course there has been an established Tartan Army body for some time now. Clubs other than the two mentioned above have mechanisms whereby they communicate and consult with fans, although they stop short of full fan participation– very often for supposedly insurmountable legal reasons.
As often as not, the fans want a say in the running of their club, but also want to be able to make representations to the governing bodies via their club.
So why not include the fans directly in the new set up for governing the league?
Any fan representative could be someone proposed by a properly registered fan body such as through official supporters clubs, or could be seconded by the clubs acting in concert with their supporters clubs.
Perhaps a committee of fan representatives could be created, with such a committee having a representative on the various committees of the new league body.
In this way, there would be a fan who could report back to the fan committee and who could represent the interests of the ordinary fan in the street in any of the committees. Equally such a committee of fans could ensure that any behind the scenes discussions on any issue were properly reported, openly discussed, and made public with no fear of hidden agendas, secret meetings, and secret collusive agreements and so forth.
Is any of that unreasonable? Surely many companies consider the views of their biggest customer? This idea is no different.
Surely such a situation would go some way towards establishing some badly needed trust between the governing bodies and the fans themselves?
If necessary, I would not even object to the fan representatives being excluded from having a right to vote on certain matters—as long as they had a full right of audience and a full right of access to all discussions and relative papers which affect the running of the game.
In this way at least there would be openness and transparency.
In short, it would be a move towards what is quaintly referred to as Democracy.
Perhaps, those who run the game at present should consider the life and times of the late great Alexander Hamilton- one of the founding fathers of the United States of America and who played a significant role in helping write the constitution of that country.
Hamilton was a decent and brilliant man in many ways—but he was dead set against Democracy and the liberation of rights for the masses. In fact, he stated that the best that can be hoped for the mass populace is that they be properly armed with a gun and so able to protect themselves against injustice!
Sadly, Hamilton became embroiled in a bitter dispute with the then Vice President of the nation Aaron Burr in July 1804. Hamilton had used his influence and ensured that Burr lost the election to become Governor of New York and had made some withering attacks on the Vice President’s character.
When he refused to apologise, the Vice President took a whacky notion and challenged him to a duel! Even more whacky is the fact that Hamilton accepted the challenge and so the contest took place at Weehawken New Jersey on the morning of 11th July 1804.
The night before, Hamilton wrote a letter which heavily suggested that he would contrive to miss Burr with his shot, and indeed when the pistols fired Hamilton’s bullet struck a branch immediately above Burr’s head.
However, he did not follow the proper procedure for duelling which required a warning from the duellist that they are going to throw their shot away. Hamilton gave no such indication despite the terms of his letter and despite his shot clearly missing his opponent.
Burr however fired and hit Hamilton in the lower abdomen with the result that the former secretary to the treasury and founding father of the constitution died at 2pm on the twelfth of July.
The incident ruined Burr’s career (whilst duelling was still technically legal in New jersey, it had already been outlawed in various other states).
In any event, in Hamilton’s time full and open democracy in the United States of America would have met with many cries of outrage and bitter opposition. Yet, today, the descendants of slaves and everyone from all social standings, all ethnic minorities and every social background has the constitutional right to vote and seek entry to corridors of power.
In that light, is it really asking too much to allow football fans to have a say and a presence in the running of a game they pay so much to support?
Danish Pastry says:
June 15, 2013 at 2:53 pm
“I am wondering what year it’s from – logic says 2011, I suppose, but if 2010, then it could lead to that chess piece causing a checkmate”.
———————
I was thinking the same thing for a wee while. However 19th September date that appears at the head of the document is the giveaway. It is given as ‘Monday 19th September’ .
Since the number of days in a year is not a multiple of 7 the day on which a particular ‘date’ falls cycles around. Monday 19th September would only occur every six years (not every seven years due to leap year interjections). I typed the date into Google and got the following.
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/weekday-monday-19
Monday 19th September occured in 2005 and again in 2011.
Any good chess strategy requires patience I suspect. Not long now?
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 1:08 pm
We now have the corporate genius with the IQ which can’t be measured. (Who runs his business out of a flat in London).
_________________________________________________
I am with you on this one…..
a few months in the future I can hear it already…..”where’s yer 200+ IQ now ya pr**k…”
For my money he’s just another chancer
Re Mr Prior
With his off the radar IQ and being a life long sevconian ,sorry did he TUPE over,anyway ,why did he not come forward sooner in this adventure as he presumes to be a dyed in the wool supporter ,his words ,all his life,and he missed the opperchancity to get involved 2 years ago ,was SDM not aware of this man ,obvisouly not,who sounds to me would have prevented this whole sorry mess,god I hope he is asked where the f@ck have you been Mr Prior you could have saved us and you turn up now,explain yourself,or,could it be ,surely not,again ,it couldnt be ,hope to god not ,you are a front for Craig or Charles,do tell ,MR PRIOR.
200+IQ and purchase of RIFC shares= oxymoron, I would say.
Right……this is getting ridiculous now……..the absolute refusal of anyone in the media to acknowledge the Charlotte information that is all over the internet even exists….
Just what the hell is going on here? It makes no sense? Can there really be some sort of super-injunction that forbids even the mention of said injunction? If so who has taken out said injunction……
This is getting beyond bizarre?
Thoughts?
john clarke says:
June 15, 2013 at 3:48 pm
200+IQ and purchase of RIFC shares= oxymoron, I would say.
——
Absolutely correct John – the adjective is oxymoronic.
I wonder how long it is before Jon Daly and Keiran become the reason for things going pear-shaped down Ibrox way…ready made scape goats for the angry punters. To be fair, they both have to know what they’ve signed up for.
peterjung says:
June 15, 2013 at 3:59 pm
Part of a super injunction is that people can’t even report that it exists.
I imagine the same would be the case for an interdict.
jimlarkin says:
June 15, 2013 at 2:55 pm
11 1 Rate This
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/06/14/asa-confirms-one-complainant-seeks-independent-review-rangers-scotland-s-most?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
well done that MAN
There should be at least two there by now, I am Brian…..
Anyone wanting to buy HMFC have to do it through the Liquidator in Lithuania, isn’t that as much as saying they are bust! Is SFA/SPL hushing this, as it will effect TV deal and League sponsors?
peterjung says:
June 15, 2013 at 3:45 pm
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Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 1:08 pm
We now have the corporate genius with the IQ which can’t be measured. (Who runs his business out of a flat in London).
_________________________________________________
I am with you on this one…..
a few months in the future I can hear it already…..”where’s yer 200+ IQ now ya pr**k…”
For my money he’s just another chancer
_____________________________________________
I am really not so sure. I think he could very well be the real deal.
– Close links with Malcolm Murray –
– Genuine Independent wealth – self made. City contacts.
– Sly digs at blue pitch and the other spivs.
– Called out BS/ £1.5m Executive salaries
– Corsica 1968 has says nice things about him (ref to his foundation).
– Corsica RIP hinted about Manchester interest in acquiring interest who were being given the cold shoulder by D&P (given how deeply they were involved with CW, no surprise there) which could fit the Kieran scanario.
– If he is a clever lad and he has spotted away to get the spivs running for the hills, a detoxed TRFC is his for the taking, and he could actually make some money out of it. He has taken on enough to get a look at the books, but not so much that he can’t afford to storm out shouting ‘shenanigans’ and pulling the tent down around him as he leaves if the spivs don’t cut and run. He could bring clean money in himself, I am sure.
I reckon he’s the real deal and those who are lumping him in with the Craig Whyte/Charles Green’s may come to reflect on it.
But I could be wrong.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm
How do you know he has close links with Malcolm Murray
How much is he worth.
How does he make it a successful business model.
He can make money out of Rangers, I don’t doubt it for a second. However that does not necessarily mean that would be good for the football team. Green Ahmad and Stockbridge have an will make good money out of Rangers, I don’t think much of what they did helped the football team.
north rd says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:52 pm
I had taken that as a given.
Did Vlad or his companies not own something like 99.8% of the shares. Which are assets the liquidator will be disposing of.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm
1 1 Rate This
I reckon he’s the real deal and those who are lumping him in with the Craig Whyte/Charles Green’s may come to reflect on it.
==================================================================
Whether he’s the real deal or not the media have pitched in right away with the ‘intelligence of the radar’ description. Why don’t any ordinary people invest in Rangers? Why is everyone portrayed as some kind of genius, billionaire, or tycoon?
The continued deference shown to people at Rangers by the media in general is baffling. What I find interesting is that people Like ‘Dr’ Brian Quinn, and ‘Baron’ John Reid were never given those titles by the media. Does anyone think for a minute people with those titles at Rangers would not have them applied at every turn?
Only time will tell if Mr Prior is the real deal or not. In the meantime I would imagine he will shift a few season books with his statements so far.
Also listening to Radio Scotland earlier and Tom English made a very valid point. He says that there is a big difference in the attitude of the Hearts fans during their clubs crisis as compared to the aggressive blame all behaviour of rangers fans last year. Well said Tom.
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm
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resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm
How do you know he has close links with Malcolm Murray
How much is he worth.
How does he make it a successful business model.
He can make money out of Rangers, I don’t doubt it for a second. However that does not necessarily mean that would be good for the football team. Green Ahmad and Stockbridge have an will make good money out of Rangers, I don’t think much of what they did helped the football team.
________________________________________
(i) He said he has link with Malcolm Murray
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-investor-kieran-prior-explains-1954038
(ii) How much is he worth?
Don’t know. But he worked at Goldman Sachs. I imagine City bonuses will have come his way. And he has just stumped up £400k for a small stake in a failing business, admitting that it is a high risk. So he has the type of wealth that enables him to gamble with £400k. CW put in £1 and CG used other people money. I suspect he has no intention of bankrolling the club wiothout making money. Sounds a bit of a Fergus McCann type.
(iii) I can actually see how this could be done, with a few what ifs. The big risks are Worthingtons claim on the assets, and whether ypou can bin the expensive contracts cleanly. There are a few things that can happen that make the situation unrecoverable, in which case he will walk away.
But to make money and build a sustainable business :
(1) Cut costs drastically. Stop haemorrhaging cash. Ally & the crew can work for free, walk away, or take a John Grieg ambassador role (£30K). Any way up, his salary needs to be saved. He can insist on the pay off to which he is entitled, and be roasted in the press to be eaten alive, or he can take some newly minted shares in compensation instead. These shares will be printed from scratch, diluting other shareholders, but costing the company 0 in cash terms – effectively a debt equity swap.
New board comes in. As at other clubs they work fore free. Another £1.5m saved. If this could be achieved (not by any means certain) theres £3m a year that can be clawed back without hurting the club.
(2) Sell on players. Use MP as a incubator. Generate cash that way. Put up and coming players on long contracts for low wages, creating a sell on value. Give the kids a go in the first team. This is why it may take 4-5 years to get back to the top flight.
(3) The big one. Trade on the bears ‘new’ expectations and be honest with them. The strategy will be to rebuild completely across an 8 year time frame. The objective will be to stop Celtic achieving 10 in a row. The plan will involve returning to the top flight within 3-4 (yes 4) years. The plan will be to win the Scottish cup within 4-5 years. And the plan will be to beat Celtic in 1/4 league matches in 5-6 years. And to win the SPL stopping ten in a row by year 7-8. Players will be developed and sold at a profit to align with this strategy.
The badly beaten up bears are now ready to fund this new reality. This creates Kieran’s opportunity to make money. By setting out his stall, playing fairly, and delivering what he promised in exchange for the bears stumping up their end. Success will be built, not bought. (And then sold at a profit!)
I could be wrong, but I reckon playing the long game is how this could be done.
fara1968 says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:36 pm
Only time will tell if Mr Prior is the real deal or not. In the meantime I would imagine he will shift a few season books with his statements so far.
Also listening to Radio Scotland earlier and Tom English made a very valid point. He says that there is a big difference in the attitude of the Hearts fans during their clubs crisis as compared to the aggressive blame all behaviour of rangers fans last year. Well said Tom.
———————————————————————————
I would think in view of the CF material that TE might be quite careful for a while about the comments he makes 🙂
http://t.co/cplZ5t4S3B
A big hand for all these guys, all in the name of Charity, Honest Charity.
Well done to all involved.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm
1 1 Rate This
I reckon he’s the real deal and those who are lumping him in with the Craig Whyte/Charles Green’s may come to reflect on it.
Don’t trust this guy at all, every company he is involved in now or has been involved in, in the past has never filed accounts and is dissolved with no record of ever having filed any, any co-directors of those companies have no links to any other businesses other than those involving Prior. He has virtually no discoverable history on the internet (Remember Whyte)?, despite being (Apparently) one of the most intelligent men in the world and a city whizkid, he seems happy to let the newspapers peddle the Myth that his IQ is 234, which cannot be true as it puts him as the most intelligent person alive in the world today, just slightly above Korean engineer Kim Ung-Yong and way ahead of the likes of Stephen Hawking and Gary Kasparov. What are the chances of this utter genius existing and never having been in the public eye before? So here we have a guy, the smartest person alive in the world today and a financial genius, has ran a few companies which have never filed accounts, all the people involved in those companies cannot be traced to any other company or business, (at least not using normal company check tools etc) has suddenly appeared on the Radar, invested in Rangers (His boyhood heroes) and begins upsetting the apple cart right around season ticket renewal time? Another Whyte me thinks.
Close links with Malcolm Murray from this
=========================
You know Malcolm Murray, right?
I’ve met him and my relationship with him is friendly, although we can go months without speaking. He struck me as distraught about what was going on at the club.
==========================-
He has bought 1.2%, hardly a Fergus McCann type in my book. Fergus McCann paid off Celtic’s debt to save the club. He then rebuilt it from the ground up (including the ground actually) and had a very successful share issue. This bloke has stuck a few quid in a failing business, then spoken to a newspaper.
What do you think of this btw
===========================
So you’re not just another rapacious venture capitalist?
The only way I could ever see my shareholding being sold is if someone buys over the 30 per cent threshold and triggers a buyout.
Then I would have no option but to sell. That’s the only way I could be bought out right now.
————————————————
Now I accept he is the financial genius and whiz kid, and I’m just some tube on the interweb, however as I understand it at 30% someone has to offer to buy other people’s shares, but they don’t have to accept that offer. Happy if someone corrects me on that. Maybe Kieran meant 90%.
As for the plan to get everyone to work for free, and selling off the players, then rebuilding in 8 years. The bears wouldn’t wear it, not a chance in the World. They demand success and they demand it immediately. In fact they expect it and take it as a right. Get the cheque book out Mr Prior.
Sabre rattling?
oisin71 @oisin71 1h
@corsica1968 I see @AnOrangeCount is in dialogue with your friend. Interesting TL. Says he’ll expose tweeters + Charlotte tomorrow night.
W Mcdonnell @waco61 2h
@AnOrangeCount @StoneBartin @CharlotteFakes well you better make sure every single name you name is true or its time for court & lawyers
ClashCityRockers
You have a PM.
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 6:18 pm
______________________
Now I accept he is the financial genius and whiz kid, and I’m just some tube on the interweb, however as I understand it at 30% someone has to offer to buy other people’s shares, but they don’t have to accept that offer.
___________________
Under stock market rules, once a single person has a 30% stake, they have a controlling interest and MUST make an offer to acquire the oustanding shares. This does not force other shareholders out at that point, but the fact that they have to make a mandatory offer means that no single holder is likely to go over 30% unless they intend to take control. And If the shareholding reaches 75% or 90% (depending upon the type of arrangement involved) the minority shareholders can be forcibly bought out.
So in practice, to avoid any possibility of ever being squeezed out, you need a 25% shareholding. And at 30% you must make a mandatory offer to take control.
Once someone has that level of shareholding, they are well on the way to having effective control and being able to overrule minority shareholders in most decisions affecting the company. So getting under those circumstances would be expected and reasonable.
______________________________________________
As for the plan to get everyone to work for free, and selling off the players, then rebuilding in 8 years. The bears wouldn’t wear it, not a chance in the World. They demand success and they demand it immediately. In fact they expect it and take it as a right. Get the cheque book out Mr Prior.
—-
That’s the only plan I see that would work. The bears will have to lump it, cos its the only show in town. The alternative is bust. Mr Prior will not be splashing the cash. At least not on unsustainable big name signings. I really don’t think he is a spiv. Nor do I expect him to mortgage the real estate or run up debts :that’s his collateral if the bears walk away. I susepct he will give them a choice: Pay up and stop Celtic getting 10 in a row, or walk away and watch Ibrox being bulldozed.
I can see enough of them buying into that to get him a payback!
Re Mr Kieran Prior, my concern about his background to date is the reference …”trader at Goldman Sachs…”…!
Bearing in mind the damage done to worls economies by this firm, I ask if he carries the same mentality as to his own private investments…I regard this guy as another opportunist/chancer seeking his 15 minutes of fame.
Also, as Sam says above, what is a …”Chartered Accountant of academic standards…”….? To me it implies, certainly, that he appears more than a tad overpaid, certainly in relation to market levels. Which then begs another question…Just what exactly has he done to justify this nice little earner?
Mr Green, can you enlighten us all please?
an awfull lot of TDs
Gaz @ 3.20. “The Gates..The Gates “, has been my mantra for the last year. 🙂
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:10 pm
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on your plan.
I just don’t see them buying into it. I don’t know if you read any Rangers supporters forums, but their attitude has not changed one bit. Other now believing some of the most appalling propaganda I have ever seen in relation to what has happened and why it has happened over the last couple of years.
Their sense of supremacy and entitlement is not diminished. The expect to be back in “their rightful place” in the next 3 seasons, 4 at the most. They assume will walk the league they are in, they assume will walk the second top league and they assume will walk to the top of the SPL. The idea of cost cutting and not competing with Celtic is simply not an option for them.
Celtic have won the SPL for the last two seasons, they will be favourites to win it for a few more. The idea of Rangers not being competing for it for another 8 years, as per your plan would not be accepted as any sort of option.
north rd says:
June 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm
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resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm
1 1 Rate This
I reckon he’s the real deal and those who are lumping him in with the Craig Whyte/Charles Green’s may come to reflect on it.
Don’t trust this guy at all, every company he is involved in now or has been involved in, in the past has never filed accounts and is dissolved with no record of ever having filed any, any co-directors of those companies have no links to any other businesses other than those involving Prior. He has virtually no discoverable history on the internet (Remember Whyte)
_______________________________________
He was working as an investment banker at Goldman Sachs. He won’t have been a company director. He will have been a fund manager. An employee. Probably a very well paid one, but an employee nevertheless. I would imagine that would take up quite alot of his time, so the 2 inactive companies that he is previoulsy a director of don’t look like they commanded alot of his attention, or did very much at all. Whereas the 2 that were formed recently look like consisting of Priarc that he has made reference to. They are newly incorporated like you said. His company check history aligns with his public statements.
Now, you may be right, but he doesn’t smell ‘spivvy’ to me. That’s all I’m saying.
I take the point about the press gushing all over him, but that’s not his fault. That’s our press!
I think Corsica 1968s view is very interesting and it seems positive.
w.r.t the IQ of 234 – this is statistically just plain rubbish.
There are different ways of ‘assessing’ IQ (I won’t sully the meaning of the word ‘measurement’ by associating it with such a nebulous and subjectiove concept) but most systems work on the basis of a mean score of 100 and a standatrd deviation of 15. A score of 234 would put Kieran at 9-sigma – i.e. 9 standard deviations from the mean. The probability associated with this is so close to zero as to be effectively equal to it.
There are 3 possible explanations:
(1) Kierans intelligence makes him clever to the level of 1 in many many many Billions
(2) Kieran’s brain actually works in a different way from the rest of the population or
(3) IQ tests are a blunt instrument which include some flawed assumptions that do not accurately reflect the reality in extremis, so cannot be applied in this case. So this number (IQof 234) is basically meaningless. (to use a real world example/ analogy: Whilst a fuel guage is a useful tool giving hepful information when it comes to journey planning, we have probably all driven a car where the fuel guage indicates it is completely empty of petrol. And yet the motor is turning over nicely, and we can make it to the garage 20 miles down the road. This, however, does not mean that we an engine that produces power without consuming fuel! Instead it means that the fuel level has dropped below a level where the sensor can detect it, and our guage has become quantitatively useless!)
My ‘scientific’ judgement is that ‘3’ is correct.
paulsatim says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:39 pm
1 3 Rate This
an awfull lot of TDs
————————————
Noticed that also.
Looked back at my last post on the efforts of a group of fans raising genuine money for charity climbing Ben Nevis. 4 thumbs down. Jesus wept.
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:52 pm
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resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:10 pm
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on your plan.
_________________________________________
I accept your version may well be correct. But I think mine could also be.
One thing is clear: The way the Govan club behaved in the past is not the way they will be able to behave in the future. The money for their historical profligacy is simply not there to be stolen again! They must either pay their own way now or go without, same as everyone else. Accept the new reality, or bulldoze Ibrox. Thats the choice the bears face. Whilst alot of noisy grumbling bears haven’t moved on to accept the new reality, some have. If it is enough of them, they may have a future. If not – Its game over player one.
Palacio67 says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:09 pm
paulsatim says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:39 pm
an awfull lot of TDs
————————————
Noticed that also.
Looked back at my last post on the efforts of a group of fans raising genuine money for charity climbing Ben Nevis. 4 thumbs down. Jesus wept.
———————————————————————————————–
I wouldn’t worry, I often notice that the first couple of thumbs are TDs from The Media House brigade before the post goes onto register almost 100% TU thereafter, add in the ‘fat finger syndrome’ on mobiles and there’s your answer…hopefully!
north rd says:
June 15, 2013 at 6:08 pm
…
Don’t trust this guy at all, every company he is involved in now or has been involved in, in the past has never filed accounts and is dissolved with no record of ever having filed any, any co-directors of those companies have no links to any other businesses other than those involving Prior. He has virtually no discoverable history on the internet (Remember Whyte)?, despite being (Apparently) one of the most intelligent men in the world and a city whizkid, he seems happy to let the newspapers peddle the Myth that his IQ is 234, …and begins upsetting the apple cart right around season ticket renewal time?
Another Whyte me thinks.
====================
My instinct goes along with that assessment nr.
I have never heard of this guy before, [a la Craigie], when I think I would have – and I guess that there are posters here who I would expect to have a fair bit of ‘informal’ information on Prior, if he was not simply the next spiv in line – after Whyte / Green.
I get the distinct mental image of Irvine and his lackeys having a right good laugh at the spin out there in the MSM. I mean – someone so smart that they would get involved in a football club ?!
With that – alleged – level of intellect Prior would be trying to save the world, eradicate global poverty etc – not messing about with a crappy football team.
IMO, it’s all absolute, pre-planned PR bollox. 🙂
….and thus the circus continues down Govan way. [Can’t complain that it’s not entertaining though 😉 ].
peterjung says:
June 15, 2013 at 3:59 pm
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Right……this is getting ridiculous now……..the absolute refusal of anyone in the media to acknowledge the Charlotte information that is all over the internet even exists….
Just what the hell is going on here? It makes no sense? Can there really be some sort of super-injunction that forbids even the mention of said injunction? If so who has taken out said injunction……
This is getting beyond bizarre?
Thoughts?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
My thoughts are, there is no injuction, the material is not toxic and its all part of the spivs latest plans of deflection.
There have been a few interesting tapes and documents has been nothing game changing and really just confirmation of what was being talked and written about on here since last year.
Murray has been protected since day one and with all the recordings CF/Whyte has then he will be all over them and if CF really wanted people to take notice then thats what would be getting released.
What really gets me is not the Scottish MSM but A.T. who I honestly think has only skirted round this story since he became involved and never really got stuck in the way a lot of us thought his reputation suggested he would have.
There have been days when has CF more or less hijacked every post on this blog which to my mind is the sole purpose of her/its tweets.
As I have stated before, once I here or see something damaging (which must exist) from Sir David then I will believe in the ”seek truth” she is claiming to be projecting.
paulsatim says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:25 pm
Oh, Fara why are you so sad, you have more TDs than me?
———————————————————————————————————————————–
i must be slow on the uptake tonight. I dont understand what you mean but I have beer n pizza at the moment so I’m actually quite happy just now. The serial thumb downers amuse me too. It means we are having an impact out of our own community which must be a good thing, even if they hate to hear what we are saying.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:51 pm
” 8 year time frame. The objective will be to stop Celtic achieving 10 in a row.”
————————
That sonds very specific Resin but I haven’t seen that detail in the two DR articles posted so far. I know SMSM output is generally fictional but I’d be interested to see it. If nothing else, just to confirm my prejudice. Could someone post a link please?
I’m not quite sure what to make of the positive response Mr. Prior is receiving. In truth I share the sentiment but am wondering a little why I should feel this way. Certainly his heritage indicates a possible break with a bunch of historical baggage. If nothing else its nice to see the Rangers saga getting a positive treatment. It suggests the blog isn’t about bigotry but about doing the right thing. We’ll have plenty of time to judge Mr. Prior. Its nice to have an optimistic outlook but if the reality doesn’t match up I’m sure we’ll be amongst the first to know about it.
9. resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:51 pm
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Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm
But to make money and build a sustainable business :
(1) Cut costs drastically. Stop haemorrhaging cash. Ally & the crew can work for free, walk away, or take a John Grieg ambassador role (£30K). Any way up, his salary needs to be saved. He can insist on the pay off to which he is entitled, and be roasted in the press to be eaten alive, or he can take some newly minted shares in compensation instead. These shares will be printed from scratch, diluting other shareholders, but costing the company 0 in cash terms – effectively a debt equity swap.
New board comes in. As at other clubs they work fore free. Another £1.5m saved. If this could be achieved (not by any means certain) theres £3m a year that can be clawed back without hurting the club.
(2) Sell on players. Use MP as a incubator. Generate cash that way. Put up and coming players on long contracts for low wages, creating a sell on value. Give the kids a go in the first team. This is why it may take 4-5 years to get back to the top flight.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
All the above is sound business sense but how can one shareholder with just over 1% of the total shares make any of this happen? Even Ally has more shares than him!
As far as I have read so far he hasnt been invited onto the board, he is not being made CEO and to my understanding will simply have a 1.2% vote/say on any decisions made?
I know if someone bought 1% of my businesss then started telling me how to run the company and take a massive salary reduction I would tell them to piss off.
I cant see him making much if any difference to whats going on just now and if anything he is positioning himself to get a front seat when the sh^t hits the fan later in the year.
spanishcelt says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:38 pm
There have been a few interesting tapes and documents has been nothing game changing and really just confirmation of what was being talked and written about on here since last year.
==========================
Do you genuinely think that someone providing documentary and audio confirmation of things people have been conjecturing on is worthless. I don’t, quite the reverse, I find it very useful.
In addition to it providing clarity on some issues and confirmation of others it also provides a fascinating insight into some of the attitudes of the people concerned.
Just off the top of my head Charles Green taking about being able to get UEFA to do things to help Rangers, for the price of “a drink”. I take that to be similar to a phrase used “There will be a drink in it for you”. Which does not refer to buying someone a beverage. Or Jack Irvine, talking about coming up with a scandal about Celtic to feed to the media and deflect attention. Or his clearly bigoted emails.
Sorry but for me long may they continue. To anyone who sees them as being worthless it really is easy to ignore them and any discussion about them. The press certainly are.
StevieBC says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Good post Stevie, and that’s my take on it too. It’s also worth pointing out that he hasn’t put a penny into RIFC so far. He has (allegedly) bought another person’s shares at 50p each. Why has he done that? Maybe he sees value in the shares at 50p? I don’t see it myself, or not until until the football side is disposed of, but then my IQ is below 200 (just guessing there!).
Is this simply yet another distraction from the critical cash position at Ibrox? I think it is, but I might be wrong. However I’ll only believe I’m wrong once Prior invests a substantial sum directly into the company.
I very much doubt he will “invest” a bean in the company.
He may have contacts which will be able to provide it with loans, or he may even do it himself. However short of there being another share issue I don’t see him putting any money into the club, or it’s holding company.
Roosevelt doc interesting esp highlighting holdcos, risks of insolvent trading and directors penalties. Interesting too that TRFC have a new Director. Didn`t need an RNS shout but kept under the radar nonetheless. Interesting also a coincident co-ordinated PR splurge on `new money` – `out of the blue` & to the DR [jack]? More Interesting will be their `allegedly` overdue accounts – transparency to supporters due anytime?
Actually, it’s worth looking at what he does again
http://www.priarc.com/
-Are you sitting on a great idea, but need structure, direction and capital?
– Is your business expanding, but constrained by infrastructure, staff and cash-flow?
– Do you have a solid business, good turnover yet struggling to make a profit?
We want to hear from you.
PriArc is an entrepreneurial partnership that aims to invest in great ideas, expanding businesses and innovative concepts. We combine a unique set of investment analysis, risk management and money generation skills that will help create solid businesses with profitability at their core.
essexbeancounter says:
June 15, 2013 at 7:23 pm
” Re Mr Kieran Prior, my concern about his background to date is the reference …”trader at Goldman Sachs…”…!
——–
And I would think along the same lines.
Although he appears to have severed direct connection with that company, it is interesting to see from the web-page of The Priority Trust ( which he is credited with founding) that a number of members of the advisory Board as well as at least one Trustee worked with Goldman Sachs in senior positions.
I’m not particularly well up ( no, read “I’m an eejit really when it comes to business matters”) but I would not be surprised if GS are looking at a really good development opportunity, nothing to do with running a football club, but in acquiring some potentially valuable sites in a city keen to develope and regenerate that part of the city, after the Commonwealth games, to match the development in the east end.
I think I might not put money on the chances of any football club playing at Ibrox some few years from now.
Castofthousands says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:45 pm
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resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 5:51 pm
” 8 year time frame. The objective will be to stop Celtic achieving 10 in a row.”
____________________________________
To be clear, I have no specifc information: This is just my guess based on what I would do, with the available information.
They need a long term objective to focus on, because there are no quick fixes and no light at the end of the tunnel for a while.
And it needs to be something they care alot about, because its gonna cost them alot to get there, and its gonna take them a long time to do it.
And this is a goal they care about that meets all of the ‘SMART’ criteria – for those who deal in goal management and know about such things.
(Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevent, Time Bound).
If I was Kieran, I would go the bears with just that plan saying : Here the way forward.
Stopping Celtic getting 10 in a row is the objective.
Here’s how we deliver it:
This is what you need to do to make it a reality.
The only aternative is bulldozers at the debt dome?
Any questions?
Are you in or out?
If there is enough buy in they unite behind it, and off we go.
Otherwise they can buy a souvenir brick when we knock it down (turn it into flats or whatever)!
And the real beauty is it doesn’t really even matter if it succeeded or not: What matters is getting their buy in to chase after it!
I’d make money on the way – honestly. The club would get built up again with (which is the bears real objective) with everyone united behind a common goal. And Even as Celtic were hoisting number 10, I’d be shaking Neil Lennon’s hand in statesmanlikle congratulation, with my pockets bulging (which is my real objective) knowing full well that the bears had got their club competing at the top level in a sustainable manner on a financially secure footing, with the only real point of success or failure for me coming after the point I wanted out anyway. What’s not to like?
I’m almost tempted…. (only joking… not on your nelly!). But someone could be.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:17 pm
The thing I don’t understand in your plan is where the additional income will be coming from.
It is generally assumed that Celtic win the SPL and will do so for some time because of the additional resources they have. I totally agree with that.
It follows that for Rangers to compete they need to have similar resources, and they really need to have those without cheating on their tax.
When Rangers were in the SPL and it was a two horse race they were still cheating on their tax, and there was also a large “black hole” in the accounts. How do you propose to fill that gap.
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:17 pm
I can see where you’re coming from, but you miss out the fact that to achieve that result, somebody is going to have to cover the losses to the tune of at least £60m over a 6 year period. And with absolutely no guarantee of success. The absolute maximum value of the company as a football business must be less than £60m, so where is the upside? It makes no sense to me.
Slight MSM breakthrough:
Mark Daly Tweets
Mark Daly @markdaly2 19m
Just seen the alleged chain of emails between Brian Donohoe MP & @JackIrvine, published by @CharlotteFakes. Nothing inappropriate in…
Mark Daly @markdaly2 16m
representing constituents. Happens all the time. But a PR Agency drafting the letter to the Chancellor? Tell you what, if that’s true…
Mark Daly @markdaly2 16m
…and you’re the guy hiring the PR agency, that’s plenty of bang for your buck…
spanishcelt says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:38 pm
‘There have been a few interesting tapes and documents has been nothing game changing and really just confirmation of what was being talked and written about on here since last year.’
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 8:55 pm —
“Do you genuinely think that someone providing documentary and audio confirmation of things people have been conjecturing on is worthless. I don’t, quite the reverse, ..”
_________
And I am with Gaz, on this.
Literally thousands of people, almost certainly including news editors, journalists have read Charlotte’s stuff.
It is inconceivable that all the documents/ emails reproduced are bogus.
Some are bound to be genuine ( or there is an equivalent of a Shakespeare out there in the ether, able to produce such diverse material).
And that fact alone must begin to colour the approach of all but the most prejudiced and deliberately blinkered, to the the three elements of the saga, namely,and in the order of importance that I place on them,
-the suspicion that some of the personnel in the footballing authorities acted corruptly
-the fact that newspaper editors, radio sports journalists and some public figures turned a very blind eye to that abuse of power and propagandised in support of a rogue football club, dismissing as internet bampots those who asked hard questions that they would not ask
– the now almost universally accepted opinion that there were highly dubious business dealings in the sale of a football club, including what many allege to have been the deliberate running into Administration as a way to get rid of debt , the actual Administration processes, and the further sale of the assets,dirt cheap, with the hope, if not the EXPECTATION, that the ‘new club’ would be able to carry on in the top flight, debt free.
I know no better than anyone else how Charlotte proposes to proceed or what her game plan is.
But I believe that the world of Scottish Football, our world, has been signally well-served by her efforts.
@Gaz,
you’ve spoken a lot of sense in your last few posts, but can you imagine David Murray, say in 2004, addressing the Rangers faithful :-
“We’ve got two options to go forward
1) Cut costs, pay down our debt, accept that we might not compete for titles for a few years to come, or
2) Full steam ahead, risk everything (including liquidation), if it doesn’t pan out we’ll just blame ‘our enemies’ and ‘dark forces’ ”
Which, of these two options, ten years ago, would the majority of Rangers supporters have backed?
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:24 pm
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resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:17 pm
The thing I don’t understand in your plan is where the additional income will be coming from.
It is generally assumed that Celtic win the SPL and will do so for some time because of the additional resources they have. I totally agree with that.
It follows that for Rangers to compete they need to have similar resources, and they really need to have those without cheating on their tax.
When Rangers were in the SPL and it was a two horse race they were still cheating on their tax, and there was also a large “black hole” in the accounts. How do you propose to fill that gap.
____________________________________
‘It follows that for Rangers to compete they need to have similar resources, and they really need to have those without cheating on their tax.’
______________________________________
They need to be close to those resources in 8 years. Not now.
No additional money required at this point – after the cuts are made. Season tickets, merchandising & Media are the sources of income. If it doesn’t come in, it doesn’t get spent.
Bears will have to reconcile themselves to the following:
– Severe cuts to reduce the cost base. like it or lump it
– Need to develop players, then selling them on, and do this at faster rate than you ‘consume’ them, i.e. using the park as a shop window. like it or lump it.
– 40,000 season tickets need to get sold or the promotion through the leagues isn’t going to happen. happen. like it or lump it. ~2 years allowed for every league promotion in the plan.
– every player on the park is in the shop window. With an understudy lined up. – like it or lump it.
– Pay only the rate for the league you are playing in. Bank the surplus for the league above. Like it or lump it. If their isn’t a surplus made, then promotion through the leagues isn’t going to happen.2 years allowed for every league promotion in the plan.
– If management don’t develop enough players to sell on, their won’t be a promotion. like it or lump it. .2 years allowed for every league promotion in the plan.
That’s the reality. They can like it or lump it. Or they can walk away.
ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm
2 1 Rate This
Slight MSM breakthrough:
———————–
Finally! And a Mr C. Graham is already on his case …
ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm
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_______________________________
Finally the dam is creaking,. This sounds like a matter for the Commissioner of parliamentary standards to me. And That is parliamentary news. And that means Parliamentary privelege.
Danish Pastry says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:05 pm
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ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Slight MSM breakthrough:
———————–
Finally! And a Mr C. Graham is already on his case …
================
Almost like he’d been briefed to watch out for info leaking out?
Did Graham not make a social faux pas recently?
ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:09 pm
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Danish Pastry says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:05 pm
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ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Slight MSM breakthrough:
———————–
Finally! And a Mr C. Graham is already on his case …
================
Almost like he’d been briefed to watch out for info leaking out?
Did Graham not make a social faux pas recently?
_____________________________
There has always been the possibility of a public interest defence relating to the CF stuff, but none of the media will have been sure enough of it holding to risk the storm of excrement that would come their way.
But if it turns out that a 3rd party PR guy has been writing MPs letters to the chancellor, the public interest defence is bomb proof (think MP expenses) and the chains should be well and truly off!
Let it rip!
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:17 pm
There has always been the possibility of a public interest defence relating to the CF stuff, but none of the media will have been sure enough of it holding to risk the storm of excrement that would come their way.
But if it turns out that a 3rd party PR guy has been writing MPs letters to the chancellor, the public interest defence is bomb proof (think MP expenses) and the chains should be well and truly off!
Let it rip!
=================
Right at the start of national lobbying issues being discussed as well!
resin_lab_dogH says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:03 pm
2 immediate points
1, How are the costs cut. It’s fine saying it but it’s entirely another thing doing it. One assumes that Charles Green cut as much as he could (other than the huge payments to himself and his cohorts) what else are they going to cut, whilst keeping the fans onside.
2, When they are in the SPFL where is the additional cash needed going to come from. Enough for them to compete with Celtic. I honestly don’t get it.
The truth is that Rangers fans have believed that their club is a certain size (financially) for a very long time. It’s simply not true and a lot of the problems are of their own making. I won’t go into why, as this isn’t the forum, but there are reasons they don’t get things like the Nike deal, and why they are not invited to visit place, and they don’t sell as much merchandise etc. Unless you can make those reasons go away the revenue streams are limited.
I’m afraid there are a lot of moonbeams about massive Worldwide interest etc, but again it simply isn’t true. There may be people who because of family links feel affection towards the club, but turning that into income is a problem Rangers have had for decades. Hugh Adam (former rangers director) spoke about it years ago. The interest simply isn’t there.
ForresDee says @@10;09
Mr Graham got caught laughing at the disabled on a CRO Podcast, I’m reliably informed that the mirth was aimed at “spastics”, quite extraordinary for a guy who has designs on being Traynor’s tea boy at Ibrox.
JOB Done …..
ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
AnOrangeCount ……….. is No More
LOL
Gaz says:
June 15, 2013 at 6:18 pm
He has bought 1.2%, hardly a Fergus McCann type in my book. Fergus McCann paid off Celtic’s debt to save the club. He then rebuilt it from the ground up (including the ground actually) and had a very successful share issue. This bloke has stuck a few quid in a failing business, then spoken to a newspaper.
=========================================
I am just in from the pub so will avoid posting in any great detail. I think the above statement is very deserving of recognition though. McCann WAS the man. I doubt ANY Scottish club will ever get anyone like him.
Off the radar means low flyer, or, just doesn’t register.
newtz says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:40 pm
JOB Done …..
ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
AnOrangeCount ……….. is No More
LOL
====================
This is where we find out just what info he had, lets see if another account pops up!
upthehoops says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:48 pm
‘… (including the ground actually).’
—–
Funny how that wee fact sticks in the mind!
Of all the great work in building the new stadium, the fact that the pitch was moved a bit ( a yard, was it?) to the side struck me as an indication that the changes were root and branch, no messing.
ForresDee says:
June 15, 2013 at 11:03 pm
———————————–
Twitter will allow him a few trial accounts before IP is banned permanent ……
But those behind ban will be on his case …
Can of course proxy the info ….
C has some powerful people behind her …. I guess
Need to watch Babs though ….. are we watching the Irvine vs O’Doherty show ?
newtz says:
June 15, 2013 at 11:15 pm
“C has some powerful people behind her …. I guess
Need to watch Babs though ….. are we watching the Irvine vs O’Doherty show ?”
—————-
Your shorthand is a bit too intense for me newtz. Could you explain in words that a five year old would understand please.
phill4500 says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:02 pm
“…but can you imagine David Murray, say in 2004, addressing the Rangers faithful”.
——————
I think the David Murray era was all about chasing the dream in a world that was doing the exact same thing. Entepeneurs/chancers risked everything and some of them done alright.
The fans would have taken the risk every time. Like Forres Dees ‘Mods’ video earlier (I get it now Forres. Doh!), the crowd dynamic takes over and hysteria comes to the fore. They wanted ‘big ears’ (as opposed to ‘big hands’), to be able to trump their nearest rivals. Most fans would have got onboard similar bandwagons. Thats what fans crave; getting carried away on a tide of adulation.
However the consequences of gambling and losing are what we see now. Murray gambled too big and now the fall is too much to take. I feel sorry for the Rangers fans in a lot of ways but they ran with crowd and never questioned the efficacy. They would do the same again if the prize was there to be grasped. They did get to a European Cup semi-final after all. The party is over now however and its the next day. There are sore heads all round and a lot of mess to tidy up. They’ll eventually get squared up but they can’t expect others to clean up after them. It was their party after all.
Castofthousands says:
June 15, 2013 at 11:25 pm
————————————
guees you are right ….
Babs is a twitter account trying to gently point at those behind MCCARTHY DENNING LIMITED
Richard Beresford
Alan O’Doherty
RB being the QC for Merchant Legal ……. LBC (Letter Before Claim)
But Babs highlighting FoundationNI …….. linked to A O’D
Irvine is strongly suspected of possibly being behind AnOrangeCount (AOC)
AOC was about to out Charlotte and Corsica1968
AOC alluded to clonong C’s IP and NameServer to acquire info through Private Investigos … HoneyTrap
The full story behind this will be fascinating …..
seperately, someone with a new account was trying to contact C very urgently …. I gave a suggetsion to email the CW email …. they then disappeared off the twittersphere …..
Castofthousands says:
June 15, 2013 at 11:36 pm
Agree with almost everything except the Euro semi-final.
What they got to was a final group game with a chance to get to the final. I think Marseille had to lose or draw the last game and RFC had to beat their opponents at home. RFC ended up drawing and came second in their group.
It was not a tie directly between two teams RFC simply came second in a four team group.
KP’s IQ…did make me chuckle…whilst it is possible to have that IQ….one has to wonder…below are the 10 highest recorded IQ’s ever…strange 234 would make KP the 2nd highest recorded IQ since records began…yet I don’t see him listed….unless of course someone is fibbing…
1. William James Sidis estimted at 250-300
2. Terence Tao IQ 220-230
3. Christopher Hirata IQ 225
4. Kim Ung-Yong verified IQ 210
5. Garry Kasparov IQ 190
6. Marilyn Vos Savant IQ 190
7. Leonardo da Vinci estimated IQ 180 TO 190
8. Judit Polgar IQ 170
9. Albert Einstein IQ estimated 160 TO 190
10. Stephen Hawking IQ 160
paulmac2 says:
June 16, 2013 at 12:20 am
They obviously weren’t using the DR scale
newtz says:
June 15, 2013 at 11:58 pm
“suggetsion to email the CW email …. they then disappeared off the twittersphere …..”
———————-
Still reads more like computer script than melodrama. I suspect you are having to be a bit circumspect in your comments currently. Perhaps you could provide a more elaborate account once the outcome emerges.
campsiejoe says:
June 16, 2013 at 12:53 am
………………………………………
Indeed ….silly me…how could I forget..the Daily Record who have Journo’s who would struggle to spell IQ
paulmac2 says:
June 16, 2013 at 1:06 am
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campsiejoe says:
June 16, 2013 at 12:53 am
………………………………………
Indeed ….silly me…how could I forget..the Daily Record who have Journo’s who would struggle to spell IQ
________________________________________
To be fair, spelling never really been something they have to concern themselves with. Typos all get sorted out when the run it past Jack Irvine & whoever is currently in the Ibrox hotseat.
#smelling pistakes
newtz says:
June 15, 2013 at 10:40 pm
he’ll come back, minus the “u”
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharlotteFakes 6m
UEFA Licence, docs tomorrow confirming overdues/no agreement to pay.
Meanwhile an attachment schedule August 2011
http://www.scribd.com/doc/148070842/Discount-Option-Scheme-Attachment …
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Corsica68’s revelations about Rangers’s charity are depressing and dismaying. Why have none of the supposed regulators acted on (?)his info. This is disgraceful.
Cortes says:
June 16, 2013 at 1:55 am
They have, they’ve swept it under the carpet! Sweep, sweep
paulmac2 says:
June 16, 2013 at 1:06 am
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campsiejoe says:
June 16, 2013 at 12:53 am
Perhaps they misplaced a decimal point.