Many years ago, I read an article in some legal magazine or other which, to my mind, pointed out something that I had always presumed was obvious.
Namely, that unlike his English Counterpart, the Scottish solicitor is not just a drafter and processor of legal documents, he ( or she ) is a man of business who furnishes advice, and as often as not, will recommend a course of action – possibly involving many different steps or procedures- in any given situation.
Without going into an academic analysis of what this means, may I suggest that a simple definition is that the Scottish solicitor does not always simply do what they are told but will furnish the client with advice for, or against, a certain course of action.
The same applies to accountants and other professionals in my experience. When discussing any business situation, the client should always be aware of the pros and the cons. From there he or she makes a decision based on the advice given – which advice may be taken or rejected.
That is how things work.
If you think about what I have said above, then it follows that one of the principal things an adviser should do for any client, is to suggest a course of action that keeps the client out of court.
Court is a place of last resort. Litigation of any kind is expensive, brings uncertainty, is time consuming and acts as a barrier to unfettered and uninterrupted business planning, strategy and progress because no one can ever be sure of the outcome or the consequences of a court case.
In olden days, court meant choosing your champion to fight against your adversary’s champion. If your guy knocked the other guy of the horse and killed him outright with the lance then you won. It didn’t matter if your guy was also hit with your opponents lance and died a week later as a result – you were still the winner because the other guy died first.
Eventually, society did away with such courts and replaced them with courts of law and the men and women with wigs and gowns as opposed to the lance.
However, you can still win a court battle and suffer a fatal defeat as a consequence.
That is why a court of law should always be regarded as a place of last resort. No one should ever set out on a course of action which runs a high risk of ending up being disputed in court.
Sometimes, of course, a court action is inevitable. On other occasions, people adopt a course of action where the risk of things ending up in court is seen an as an acceptable risk.
This morning’s Daily Record ( and indeed yesterday’s edition ) is spouting David Murray’s mantra that HMRC knifed Rangers but adds there are no winners here. How very MSM. How very lacking in business understanding or searching for the truth.
So, let me explain something.
When you sit down with a firm of accountants who specialise in aggressive tax avoidance schemes such as an EBT scheme or a DOS scheme, one of the things that are spelt out to you is that the scheme you are about to embark upon may well be, indeed is likely to be, challenged in a court of law. Especially if you do not administer it to the letter.
Often as not, the client will be asked to sign up to a contract which specifies that the client will pay hefty fees to lawyers and accountants for setting up the scheme and that fee will include a contribution towards legal fees arising in the event of a legal challenge to the scheme.
That is stipulated at the very outset. You pay £x in advance because you know you are likely to be sued. You also get the benefit of advice which is designed to ensure that your scheme is absolutely watertight in terms of the law, but crucially, there is a rider which states that in the event that the court rules against you then the accountants or lawyers will not be held accountable as you are entering into the whole process knowing that there is a big risk of litigation – and you are told in writing that while you shouldn’t lose, you might lose.
This too is the way it works.
The business advisers will not want litigation, but from the outset they will cover their backs and make it plain to the client that if you sign on the dotted line for an aggressive tax avoidance scheme then you can expect HMRC to take you to court.
Accordingly, the protestations screaming out from the Daily Record this morning about how HMRC killed Rangers are balderdash and bunkum of the highest order.
HMRC did not knife Rangers, they did exactly what was expected of them in the circumstances and the people at MIH knew that the day they started off on any one of their tax avoidance schemes.
Taking the risk in the first place killed Rangers or Rangers PLC if you prefer.
However, the events of yesterday and the day before throw up some other matters worth considering and remembering.
The first is the woeful state of the Rangers accounts by 2005 when there had been yet another share issue underwritten by David Murray. Those accounts showed Rangers PLC to be in a shocking financial state, despite all the rhetoric and dressing from the Directors and the Accountants.
More or less immediately Murray chose to put the club up for sale as it was obvious that the financial traincrash could simply not continue.
However, despite years of searching no buyer could be found.
Further, it should also be remembered that Rangers PLC knew all about the small tax case long before Craig Whyte came along. Those liabilities stemmed from around 2001 but at no time during the Murray era at Ibrox did Sir David put aside the money to pay a bill which no one at Rangers disputed as being due at any time.
Whyte stressed the need for this to be paid long before he ever got the keys to the Marble Staircase, but it wasn’t and there can be only one of two reasons for that.
Either Sir David just didn’t pay the bill concerned ….. or he couldn’t!
The fact is that long before Craig Whyte appeared David Murray could have paid that bill or reached an agreement to pay that bill. However he didn’t and for a period of several years he simply decided he wanted out …. Needed out ….. at any cost!
There is no doubt that he gambled hard and fast with Rangers Football Club, and their finances and their supporters loyalties. He knew , or ought to have known, well in advance that a prolonged and regularly used aggressive tax avoidance scheme, legal or not, was bound to attract the adverse interest and attention of HMRC.
Sir David Murray has been lauded up and down the country for his so called business acumen and business knowledge. He was knighted for the same and received all sorts of unprecedented backing from banks and other institutions.
Does anyone reading this really believe that such a man did not have the foresight, or the advisers around him who had the foresight, to see and know that a large and prolonged dispute with the revenue authorities may well have an adverse effect on the viability and sellability of his business?
Such a suggestion is simply not credible.
Further when the HMRC interest came, Murray’s men, if not Murray himself, did their very best to try and hide the existence of the scheme, the documents surrounding the scheme, the details of the scheme and the intention of the scheme.
They hid all this away from HMRC, The SFA, The SPL and anyone else in authority, with the result that those authorities and bodies had no option but to run to the courts, set up tribunals and convene formal hearings.
When someone does not tell you the truth, starts hiding documents and obfuscating that is the way it works.
However, that is not all that yesterday brought.
The news that Collier Bristow have apparently agreed ( through their insurers no doubt ) to pay the liquidator of Rangers some £20M shows that taking into account the litigation risk, someone somewhere thought it worth making a payment to make a bad situation go away.
Imagine that? What bad situation could that be?
Would it be that somehow or other, creditors, officials and all sorts of other people were misled by a leading firm of solicitors in relation to the affairs of Rangers PLC? Could it really be the case that things were so bad financially at Ibrox, that the only way for even Whyte to be able to get the sale to go through at the princely sum of £1 plus the official bank debt was to have his people mislead funders and eventual creditors?
What does that say about David Murray’s stewardship and the absolute urgent need to get Lloyds TSB out of the picture? Was there really no one else or no other way to take on the debts of Rangers PLC? Apparently not — and that can only be because someone chose to gamble with the finances of the club and leave it in a precarious state.
I am told that when Lloyds took over that account they expressed amazement at how MIH and Rangers PLC were allowed to run up the debts they had with HBOS. Apparently there was incredulity at some of the figures and covenants.
So , when we read in the Record this morning that the HMRC Big Tax case inadvertently brought down Rangers it is very easy to overlook the debt due to the bank, how it arose, the sums due to the same bank through MIH, the extent of the sums due, the banks attitude and the possible attitude and course of action had Whyte not taken them away.
Remember that the same bank stepped straight into MIH and began selling off its assets, and that low and behold the same management team who engineered the EBT scheme have openly admitted that there is an unexplained shortfall in the employees’ pension scheme of over £20 Million.
Do you think the employees who have lost out on pension provision are the slightest concerned about whether the tax avoidance scheme funds and their use are legal or not ? – or do you think they might argue that the money used for these so called “discretionary payments” should have been used to fund a proper legally constituted pension scheme which the company and its directors undertook to pay into under contract?
There is still substantial debt due to Lloyds by MIH and part of that debt is the amount by which David Murray and MIH underwrote and guaranteed that last share issue of Rangers PLC in 2004/2005. The principal sum due under that guarantee ( excluding interest and charges ) was greater than the principal sum claimed by HMRC in the big tax case.
Go figure.
However, this saga is far from over especially with regard to “contractually due” severance payments which look as if they will come back to the FTT in the event of the parties concerned not reaching agreement on the tax allegedly due.
Now, this is interesting because apparently there are a number of documents in existence which show that certain players received a payment of £x at the end of their contract as part of a severance deal.
At the time these were made, my recollection is that under normal severance agreement legislation the first £30,000 would be tax free but after that any sums were taxable.
The FTT has never been asked to rule on these payments, and has never heard any evidence about the legality or otherwise of paying these sums gross of tax into an offshore trust. All of that may yet be to come.
However, the most interesting part of this for me is that further court action may be taken in relation to these matters failing agreement between HMRC… and whom?
Rangers PLC ( the employer ) is in Liquidation so perhaps HMRC might claim some of the money from the Liquidator who has just received the £20M from Collier Bristow – then again it could well be that Ticketus have something to say about that.
In his last statement about MIH, David Murray openly proclaimed that the company was all but finished and revealed the pension shortfall and so on – so I doubt if any agreement of any meaning will be reached there.
That then leaves those who supposedly benefited from the contractually due severance payments – namely the players.
Maybe, in the absence of a now defunct employer, they will be asked to cough up the tax.
No doubt they will all go and consult their lawyers and accountants – the men and woman of business – who will give them their best advice – but you can bet your bottom dollar that any such advice will include a paragraph or ten which starts something along the lines of “ However, here is the potential risk in the event of you deciding to …………. “
That is the way it works……. And always has done.
Danish Pastry says:
August 1, 2014 at 6:55 pm
A good point, DP, that the board are ‘spooked’ by SoS, though I still have my doubts that this Sons of Truth is a genuine site, or one run by the board, it just doesn’t feel right to me. Not that I am an expert, but I still think there is something unprofessional in what purports to be answers from Kingsnorth. There is definitely something unprofessional if the board, or their representatives, have used such a mickey take of a name, and an insult to those they seemed so keen to appease only a few days ago. Still, nothing should surprise us in this ongoing saga.
easyJambo says:
August 1, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Download the harmonisation document here…
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2014-15/Harmonisation1a.pdf
If any one reads it and is not harmonised try this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rHHvq75-U 🙄
See the harmonisation document says “The Scottish FA and The Scottish SPFL Limited should work together to harmonise the existing two registration systems with a view to creating a single on-line player registration system to be operated by the Scottish FA to go live between February and May 2014 in readiness for the Registration Period in the summer of 2014.” Has anyone heard anything about this work, given that it should be well completed by now and in use?
Allyjambo says:
August 1, 2014 at 7:13 pm
1 0 Rate This
A good point, DP, that the board are ‘spooked’ by SoS …
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It could be a spoof. Nothing would surprise me. What isn’t, apparently, was another link to those charming VB’ers who posted images and information about an HMRC employee and his son. Dearie me.
There is something very unhealthy among certain elements of that support. I know fans of all clubs have their imbeciles but that sort of thing is sinister.
easyJambo says:
August 1, 2014 at 5:17 pm
I think I need some time to digest this:
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=13548&newsCategoryID=1
Download the harmonisation document here…
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2014-15/Harmonisation1a.pdf
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Did anybody spot the deliberate mistake?
i.e.
Nowhere in this document does it say who has primacy when one or more overlapping rules have to be explained to a Judge chairing an Inedependent enquiry
So both parties are free to erroneously brief Judges on what a rule means making the whole business of seeking an independent view simply a farce
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Or is this harmonisation idea simply preparing the ground for abandoning the so called Independent Enquiry process before the Spivs running Ibrox commit yet another breach of the rules?
Danish Pastry we went through this recently with regards to the Celtic fan abusing Colin Hendry on Twitter. It was widely felt that there is no need to discuss or publicise here the behaviour of the imbeciles who attach themselves to the support of any club. I think that behaviour is sinister yes, but it was pretty much agreed previously that such behaviour is not a valid topic of conversation on this forum.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 7:54 pm
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Danish Pastry we went through this recently with regards to the Celtic fan abusing Colin Hendry on Twitter. It was widely felt that there is no need to discuss or publicise here the behaviour of the imbeciles who attach themselves to the support of any club. I think that behaviour is sinister yes, but it was pretty much agreed previously that such behaviour is not a valid topic of conversation on this forum.
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That’s true, but the link I saw was to a very detailed blog giving details of an HMRC employee with images, place of work, and twitter screen grabs.
But you are no doubt correct, I’m sure it’s an issue for the police and not included within the scope of this blog. I was thinking out loud on the hoof. Mod should probably remove that.
I shall tune into BBC2 and watch the history of my childhood street instead.
Danish Pastry says:
August 1, 2014 at 8:03 pm
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 7:54 pm
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Danish Pastry we went through this recently with regards to the Celtic fan abusing Colin Hendry on Twitter. It was widely felt that there is no need to discuss or publicise here the behaviour of the imbeciles who attach themselves to the support of any club. I think that behaviour is sinister yes, but it was pretty much agreed previously that such behaviour is not a valid topic of conversation on this forum.
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That’s true, but the link I saw was to a very detailed blog giving details of an HMRC employee with images, place of work, and twitter screen grabs.
But you are no doubt correct, I’m sure it’s an issue for the police and not included within the scope of this blog. I was thinking out loud on the hoof. Mod should probably remove that.
I shall tune into BBC2 and watch the history of my childhood street instead.
__________________
I just wonder what news outlet I should rely on to publish this piece of information that DP posted. While I would wholeheartedly agree that any tit for tat posting of nastiness by one set of football supporters or another should be avoided here, I’d find it remiss of this blog to prohibit something this serious, at least until we have an MSM we can rely on to do their job properly.
This latest disgusting piece of behaviour relates directly to the forerunner of this blog, RTC, and should form a subject for discussion, as should the response from the moderators of the site involved. This, of course, should be done by those who would call themselves journalists, but they too, perhaps, feel disinclined to put themselves, and their families, in the firing-line. Maybe we shouldn’t have discussed the bombs and bullets either…
Hopefully is an issue for the police, as I can’t think of any reason to post such images and details if not to incite violence. I’m not really disagreeing with you, just think that we would spend all day posting comments about these things if we started highlighting every cretin with a keyboard.
Enjoy the show.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 8:23 pm
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Ryan, I think you are comparing apples with oranges. The cretin who posted vile comments about Colin Hendry’s family on twitter was indeed shameful and shamed.
This other cretin is, as described, inciting violence against another fellow human and his/her family.
Ryan and others,
I think there is a difference in that in the Colin Hendry case we are dealing with one cretin with access to a keyboard whereas with the VBs we are dealing with an organisation representing a large group of like minded individuals.
I’m sure Police Scotland will deal with it so I’ll leave it there and go for a televisual stroll, so to speak, along Duke Street with DP.
I just read the vanguard bears article in question. What surprises me is that while several of you have criticised the naming of this individual, as have I, nobody has criticised his breach of terms of employment in a public office or publicly displayed bigotry as highlighted in the article. Sickening comments about the boys brigade in particular. Which just goes to highlight my previous point, that we could spend forever highlighting stupid things on the internet. Now I realise that bullets and bombs are different. However, that is not the case here. Until people on this blog are prepared to get equally annoyed about every incident, rather than focussing on transgressions of rangers fans in particular and being more offended by them, I think these are subjects we should steer clear of because we do not yet deal with them well.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 8:55 pm
1 0 Rate This
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You are, again, correct Ryan. The individual in question has done himself and the club he supports no favours via his private twitter feed. But do we want vigilantism by fan groups? That’s the question.
When I joined the RTC discussion I was a bit shocked by the use of the H word. I also thought the jelly and ice cream references and grave dancing were tiresome and not what you expect from people standing on the moral high ground. It undermined the factual impact of the blogs themselves.
Character assassination of the kind on that blog is though, a particularly nasty piece of work and needs addressing by the VB’s themselves, and if not them, then the polis.
That said, the footballing authorities have allowed this anger and bitterness to fester thanks to their inaction and of neglect of duty.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 8:55 pm
There you are, Ryan, you’ve just pointed out there was more to this than originally met the eye. A pretty good reason for discussing something, I’d say. If it was just a case of someone with opposing views being slated on a website, then I’d agree, there’s no room for it’s airing on here. However, when it is taken to the extremes of posting pictures, including family member(s), then it reaches a level of seriousness far in excess of football related stupidity. Should the MSM decide to investigate it fully and report it (perhaps after reading of it here) with reference to any just claims of ‘bringing it on himself’ then there will be no need for us to discuss it further. I’d be grateful if you will draw it to my attention when the MSM do get around to publishing the story.
Allyjambo
Check your PMs
Sorry Folks 🙄
Will do Ally. And perhaps you can also draw it to my attention when the MSM report on an official of an organisation which pursued Rangers for millions of pounds publicly making criminal, offensive, bigoted statements. Thanks.
And the above, folks, is exactly the kind of tit for tat that occurs whenever we broach this subject.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 8:55 pm
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Ryan, I am not focussing on/criticising this cretin as a fan of any team. I am ctiticising this cretin as someone who is guilty of inciting violence.
Jean, how about inciting religious hatred? Or is that less important to you?
This conversation will not end. It will be whatabouttery on repeat until people get bored or so worked up the comments are moderated. This one story has so many offensive aspects to it, but you are only offended or upset by the posting of the mans identity, rather than the offensive things he has said. This is the main reason I don’t think we should deal with such things on this blog, it will just go on and on and become a competition to see who is most offended.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 10:13 pm
Jean, how about inciting religious hatred? Or is that less important to you?
———————————————-
Ryan, I really don’t know what you mean by this comment. Please explain.
Jean,
You said you were criticising a cretin for inciting violence. Which is fine, and I agree with.
However, the same article has a person referring to the boys brigade as “proddy paras” and referring to rangers fans as “h*ns”, an acknowledged sectarian and criminal term. But you don’t seem to have taken issue with that at all. Using inflammatory terms such as these could easily be interpreted as inciting religious hatred, by virtue of criticising people and organisations on grounds of their religion. Something which should not in any circumstance be condoned.
nawlite says:
August 1, 2014 at 7:46 pm
‘..on-line player registration system to be operated by the Scottish FA to go live between February and May 2014 in readiness for the Registration Period in the summer of 2014.” Has anyone heard anything about this work, given that it should be well completed by now and in use?./
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I, for one, haven’t seen or heard a word about this new online player registration system before reading about it here today.Must have missed any talk about it on the media!
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 10:29 pm
————————————-
Just for clarification Ryan, I have not read the article as I don’t know how to access the VB site. I have only followed the discussion, and taken info, from comments on here. I trust they are quoting correctly and, like me, are criticising the content of the article on the issue of inciting violence.
I have never incited any kind of hatred.
Change of subject, after the Dennistoun tribute on BBC 2, there’s more terrific Glesga nostalgia at Glasgow Generations. Lots of great podcasts by a father son duo:
https://itunes.apple.com/dk/podcast/glasgow-generations/id343772961?mt=2
DP,
Glad you changed the subject and enjoyed the Dennistoun tribute on BBC2.
First job after school was in the RBS in Annfield Place.
Spotted the building still there but not RBS.
Maybe I had my hands on your money at that time?
Happy Days!
mungoboy says:
August 1, 2014 at 10:59 pm
1 0 Rate This
——-
Great fun it was. I’m actually not long back from the old streets. Re-tracing my late mother’s steps in the Gallowgate, Reidvale Street and her churches, one of which I’d never set foot in (although I may have been carried in as a baby).
We used a vet at Annfield Place once when our dog was run over. A dog with a stookie got a lot of attention then, as now!
I always felt Dennistoun was a kind of neutral zone, football wise. We uaed to belt out both songs at the ABC Minors (Follow Follow & It’s A Grand Old Team). Maybe that’s why the bitterness was and is foreign to me. The Beatles were bigger than fitba in my consciousness. The only ground my dad ever visited was Shawfield, but that was mostly for the dugs 🙂
But my brother took me to Ibrox on occasion and he himself also attended Celtic Park on European nights. Do people still do that today? Probably not, unless you’re a reporter.
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 10:29 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ryan, I’m not a fan of the term ‘Hun’ but how can this possibly be construed as sectarian?
I’m old enough to remember Rangers fans calling Celtic fans ‘Huns’.
Hun was the term used post war (by everybody) for the bad guys, anyone who read comics back in the day will be familiar with the derogatory term.
It’s not sectarian .
FAO John Clark
Evening JC – just had a late night BBC response re the Port Vale piece. It had strayed into my spam folder, so happened upon it by chance. Anyway, make of it what you will:
On Friday, 1 August 2014, 23:22, Steven Marshall wrote:
Hello ,
Your email regarding the Port Vale story you wrote to BBC Radio Stoke about has been passed to me.
The story was based around voice piece scripts supplied by BBC Radio Stoke, who were also running the story on air.
The author was advised about the two-company situation at the club, which is not uncommon these days.
There are various strands of businesses at many clubs, all of which have to adhere to company law.
The company that has a direct impact on the footballing side of the operation is the one that holds the ‘golden share’ (ie membership) with the Football League.
Ideally, we would have liked to have carried quotes with Vale chairman Norman Smurthwaite but these were not available.
My understanding is that Radio Stoke had held a conversation over the phone with Smurthwaite which clarified the reason behind the winding-up petition (problem with cash flow over a loan) and the fact that the club were confident that the petition would be withdrawn after the “problem” was rectified.
What could have perhaps been made clearer is that the reason Smurthwaite thought the petition would not impact on the football club was because it would be withdrawn, rather than your suggestion that they would be shielded by one of their holding companies.
If the petition is not withdrawn further down the line then, of course, it would have an impact on the club, with the potential for a further period in administration.
I hope that clears up your query,
Best wishes,
Steve
Steve Marshall
SBJ/Duty Editor BBC Sport England
0121 567 6325 (W)
07803 926038 (M)
@swmarshall1976
Bawsman, I didn’t make the rules, but I do know that anti sectarian charity Nil By Mouth, Celtic FC and Scottish courts have found that term to be sectarian.
Therefore, if we are to criticise the singing of sectarian songs by Rangers fans, (the usual songbook as it is known here frequently) as we absolutely should, then we must also rail against the casual and common use of this bigoted term against Rangers fans. Alternatively, we could accept that it is not what this blog is set up to debate. Either way, it is unacceptable to highlight bad behaviour on one side only. It will polarise the blog and reduce it’s relevance, when this is one of the few honest places of analysis of Scottish football. In my view we must not tarnish this valuable resource.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28368669
link to original piece
“What could have perhaps been made clearer is that the reason Smurthwaite thought the petition would not impact on the football club was because it would be withdrawn, rather than your suggestion that they would be shielded by one of their holding companies”
Anyone familiar with this concept?
The company that has a direct impact on the footballing side of the operation is the one that holds the ‘golden share’ (ie membership) with the Football League.
I had a look at the SoS Facebook page to check similarities with SoT.
SoT earliest comment was 5th July so is a recent incarnation. The header would easily mislead you into thinking it was SoS if you were a casual visitor.
SoS current conversation thread has a contribution that references the SoT Facebook page and the Laxey interview. Not sure if it was a an advertising feature but it does indicate SoS will be aware of SoT.
ianagain says:
August 1, 2014 at 12:00 am
“I take it the myth that Collyers had coughed up umpteen millions to BDO is now dead?”
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Your posting of the info from James Doleman backs your assertion. I can’t remember the source for the original story but I presumed it had foundation. Just goes to show that you can’t always trust the SMSM.
I am quite prepared to finance an elaborate sedan chair powered by an elite squad of Nubian athletes if it will entice ecobhoy back to us. We miss you.
I fully expect dozens of thumbs down for this but… I think Ryan is essentially correct in suggesting the blog would be more successful by keeping clear of dragging up individual examples of internet bigotry and so on. Its quite clear the blog doesn’t deal with these issues evenhandedly so its best such topics are discussed in more general terms I think. Otherwise we just go in circles and rather than the sense breaking out we just descend into sillyness.
As I say I fully expect lots of readers of the blog will see this as some sort of affront and give me a thumbs downs or whatever, but then those people will be making my point really.
bohemian says:
August 2, 2014 at 1:45 am
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I am quite prepared to finance an elaborate sedan chair powered by an elite squad of Nubian athletes if it will entice ecobhoy back to us. We miss you.
================
Ecobhoy IS very much missed.
However, while I didn’t really follow the exchanges that led to his decision to take his discussions elsewhere but I’m sure he felt he had good reason.
He presumably didn’t feel the blog offered a worthwhile platform for discussion anymore.
We might all take it as a reminder that the blog can only be successful and continue if all contributors value it as a place of sensible, intelligent discussion. If we fail to protect that then the blog loses good posters and ultimately may run out of steam.
bailemeanach says:
August 1, 2014 at 11:57 pm
3 0 Rate This
————
Professional football has become a very odd business indeed. The more corporate it becomes the less it interests me.
Sign of the times that even famous old clubs like Port Vale get stuck in the mud of financial jiggery-pokery.
Not sure there’s a better club these days than one living well within its means, bringing through youth talent while contributing to the well-being of the local community.
Man U v Real Madrid? A few years ago that friendly would have interested me, alas no more. The vulgar spending of these clubs is out of all proportion to the value of sport and its worth to society in general.
Matty Roth says:
August 2, 2014 at 2:14 am
11 2 Rate This
I fully expect dozens of thumbs down for this but… I think Ryan is essentially correct in suggesting the blog would be more successful by keeping clear of dragging up individual examples of internet bigotry and so on.
————
No thumbs down from me. Totally agree. The blame is with me not Ryan. I mentioned a very dubious VB blog as a side thought to the SoT and SoS confusion. It was a ‘tanketorsk’ as they say here (a ‘thought cod’) — an off-hand comment not quite thought through.
😳
Matty Roth says:
August 2, 2014 at 2:14 am
====================
Matty, I would normally avoid being involved in this kind of discussion as the blog has a different (and much more important) focus than club. However, Ryan is trying to ‘sectarianise’ a word which simply isn’t, It’s not a pleasant term but not a sectarian one.
The Rangers support started the campaign to ‘sectarianise’ the word as a form of whataboutery when their ‘Billy Boys’ song was banned.
We are all sadly aware what constitutes bigotry and sectarianism, we don’t need the waters muddied by this nonsense, let’s leave it there.
Has the DR been hacked, or is the homepage one huge ribbon ad for CFC?
Conspiracy theorists will have a field day 😀
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk
Danish Pastry says: August 2, 2014 at 8:55 am
Has the DR been hacked, or is the homepage one huge ribbon ad for CFC?
Conspiracy theorists will have a field day 😀
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk
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The advert for me is Glasgow 2014. It is probably tailored advertising that reflects what you have been browsing or searching for on the net.
In your case, you must have an obsession with all things Celtic. 😈
easyJambo says:
August 2, 2014 at 9:37 am
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Danish Pastry says: August 2, 2014 at 8:55 am
Has the DR been hacked, or is the homepage one huge ribbon ad for CFC?
Conspiracy theorists will have a field day
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk
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The advert for me is Glasgow 2014. It is probably tailored advertising that reflects what you have been browsing or searching for on the net.
In your case, you must have an obsession with all things Celtic.
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Haha, that’ll be me. Go to one friendly in Hamburg and you’re tagged at the gate. German efficiency is spooky 😀
RyanGosling says:
August 2, 2014 at 12:02 am
Bawsman, I didn’t make the rules, but I do know that anti sectarian charity Nil By Mouth, Celtic FC and Scottish courts have found that term to be sectarian.
If i remember correctly the scottish courts never did.
“Our argument was that the word “huns” may be none too pleasant, but is not a religious comment.”
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot…#ixzz1qCvlLdP7
Ps. it’s a word i don’t like to use as some do find it a bit sensative
Bawsman,
I was very much done with this topic of conversation until you accused me of trying to sectarianise a word. I did not such thing. Argue with the Scottish courts not me, and please do not insult me in such a manner again. Your comment that “We are all sadly aware what constitutes bigotry and sectarianism, we don’t need the waters muddied by this nonsense” in this context suggests to me that you don’t think sectarianism works both ways. This is yet another example of why we shouldn’t broach this subject here. It is not evenly dealt with and will damage the reputation of the blog.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/celtic-fan-wore-t-shirt-with-sectarian-995063
Matty Roth says:
August 2, 2014 at 2:14 am
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Well you didn’t get your dozens of thumbs down Matty! Probably because most people on here agree this particular forum is not for that type of debate. There are plenty of forums out there for those that wish to scour the internet searching for examples of bigotry and offensive comment by anyone except fans of their own team.
Danish Pastry says:
August 2, 2014 at 8:16 am
27 0 Rate This
bailemeanach says:
August 1, 2014 at 11:57 pm
3 0 Rate This
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Professional football has become a very odd business indeed. The more corporate it becomes the less it interests me.
Sign of the times that even famous old clubs like Port Vale get stuck in the mud of financial jiggery-pokery.
Not sure there’s a better club these days than one living well within its means, bringing through youth talent while contributing to the well-being of the local community.
Man U v Real Madrid? A few years ago that friendly would have interested me, alas no more. The vulgar spending of these clubs is out of all proportion to the value of sport and its worth to society in general.
===========================
Danish, you’ve expressed something that I feel very strongly myself these days.
I stopped watching Champions League and EPL football a number of years ago, having been an avid follower before. I think at first it was perhaps on principle – I was sickened by the stitch up and the media companies constant salivation over vast spending “teams”.
But once I opened my eyes I realised I didn’t miss it one bit and actually I have no interest in these teams – I can’t relate or care about them at all.
I can’t understand why anyone bothers with it tbh. But then I think a lot of modern fans of football are a completely different breed, completely unaware of the real pain and joy of following their own team – certainly if talksport listeners are anything to go by!
The nature if the coverage of the transfer window in England in recent year has just driven home that the point that the sort of football our media are most excited about means nothing to me. I literally couldn’t care less how expensive a player is – I don’t understand the rising excitement whenever a team spends huge sums of money on a player as if this somehow promises great entertainment. Money does not equal entertainment or interest value in football for me.
Given the choice between watching a Scottish game on TV versus a Champions League match – I’d watch the Scottish game every single time.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4219595/Hun-rap-Celts-pair-walk-free.html#ixzz1qCvlLdP7
This ruling is more up to date. After the case was argued unlike the Devlin one.
upthehoops says:
August 2, 2014 at 12:07 pm
10 0 Rate This
Matty Roth says:
August 2, 2014 at 2:14 am
=========================
Well you didn’t get your dozens of thumbs down Matty! Probably because most people on here agree this particular forum is not for that type of debate. There are plenty of forums out there for those that wish to scour the internet searching for examples of bigotry and offensive comment by anyone except fans of their own team.
===================
I’m pleasantly surprised UTH.
Having seen the number of thumbs down Ryan got I expected the worst!
RyanGosling says:
August 1, 2014 at 10:13 pm
‘This conversation will not end. It will be whatabouttery on repeat until people get bored or so worked up the comments are moderated’
________________________
Ryan, you started this conversation, the one that ‘will not end’. You introduced the whataboutery. If you do not want these type of conversations here, don’t start them. But you have managed to steer the conversation from a very serious piece of online rabble rousing to an argument over ‘whataboutery’. Well done.
Allyjambo,
I did not start this conversation. I commented on a story discussed by Danish Pastry. And I did not steer the conversation to whatabouttery. My comment on the story queried why people only took issue with parts of the story and not other parts, which were just as serious in my view. But rather than agree or disagree, you seem more eager to patronise me with a sarcastic well done. I don’t quite understand why you feel the need to post a comment such as you have just done, but unless I feel the need to defend myself against what I feel are insulting posts such as from Bawsman earlier today, or to correct falsehoods attributed to me such as you have just attempted, I will not comment on this any further.
Ryan,
The merit of the argument aside, neither AllyJambo nor Bawsman misrepresented you as far as I can see.
I do think that you have gotten a bit over sensitive about this. We are not merely talking about bad behaviour of one set of fans or another. It is a bit more serious than a name calling campaign when innocent people are targeted in this way, and in the absence of MSM failing to do their job, it seems fair enough that we should try to air it.
Where it gets tedious is where people post from the moral high ground about football fans using abusive sectarian or racist language. Reprehensible as that is, it is “dog bites man” stuff and a waste of our time.
RyanGosling says:
August 2, 2014 at 3:41 pm
The ongoing discussion has not been about the content of DP’s post, but rather about whether or not we should discuss it’s contents.
You actually started the conversation about whether or not DP’s post should have been made before anyone else had a chance to comment on it’s contents, and you introduced the ‘whataboutery’ element too, in the same post, re the Colin Hendry comments by a Celtic supporter.
As I pointed out earlier, without DP’s post, I, and I’m sure others, would have been unaware of this latest piece of rabble rousing within Scottish football, are you suggesting we should all remain ignorant of such matters? Are you suggesting that rabble rousing with the identifying of an individual can be classed along with name calling and insult throwing at an anonymous group of people? Has nothing been learned since McCoist called for the names of the tribunal?
I followed the earlier link to Paul McConville’s old site, the one referencing Eco’s continued presence. Utter travesty that that current pile of shite is associated with the memory of him.
Just in from a hard day’s hillswimming!
Buckfastswallier.
I had a quick look at the RandomThoughts blog too before leaving this morning and was quite depressed by the standard of it.
Ecojon is still battling away and worth reading but overall the whole place seems to be riddled with the lowest form of sneering, arrogant bullies and trolls.
It is a great pity that what was clearly intended as a memorial to the splendid writings of Paul McConville has so quickly been lost amongst the overgrowing weeds.
Buckie,
Went there myself and quickly left once I’d realised that it had been taken over by the intellectual wing of the Bears Den.
Our old friend Steerpike seems to be the main man supported by others of that ilk.
Can’t figure out if it’s a made up spoof of Paul’s site or not.
Maybe others can enlighten me.
Whatever it is, it’s an insult to his memory.
I won’t be back and would caution others to only go there if you are of a strong disposition.
Oh, and well said TSFM.
Individual cretins with a keyboard cannot be compared to an organisation taking to the internet to collectively threaten someone.
“One by one, VB will come after you” is the heading and, judging by the follow up comments, the pitchforks are being dug out.
mungoboy says:
August 2, 2014 at 4:48 pm
Oh, and well said TSFM.
Individual cretins with a keyboard cannot be compared to an organisation taking to the internet to collectively threaten someone.
———————————————————–
Somewhat surprised at this Mungoboy as it seemed you were relieved to negate/dismiss the discussion earlier:
“DP,
Glad you changed the subject…”
My point was and remains, as you have clearly illustrated, that one shouldn’t compare apples with oranges. This is a serious discussion and deserves airing. 😕
BTW the Duke Street programme last night was brilliant as was the episode last week on the elite of Edinburgh. The Duke street residents stood up to the bullies with honour and achieved a fair outcome.
@ Mungoboy The Continuing Random Thoughts site was not set up as a tribute to or a spoof of Paul McConville’s site but was set up as what it is now.
Matty Roth says:
August 2, 2014 at 1:29 pm
15 0 Rate This
———
You and I are singing from the same hymn sheet Matty. I expect a huge number of others on here are too.
You know, if our clubs are to be no more than July/August also-rans you’ve got to wonder if European football has relevance any more. I wonder if UEFA would notice if we declined to take part — on grounds of principle.
I really did enjoy watching the Dons the other night, Celtic less so, and would have liked to see the Saintees too. But it’s some odds we’re up against. Barca had a great post on this recently. We can moan until the coos come hame, but a principled protest might be in order.
FIFA has lost all credibility, UEFA is following in its footsteps — the love of money.
For those getting confused, the original site run by Paul McConville is still available to read.
Go here: http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/
Whatever the history of the ‘similarly enough named to cause confusion with a previous entity’ site, I completely agree with Mungoboy.
I won’t be going back and recommend that anyone who hasn’t had the misfortune of being drawn there doesn’t bother going.
The experience will not enhance your life in any way.
I miss Eco’s posts and would be delighted if he returned to posting here.
bailemeanach says:
August 1, 2014 at 11:57 pm
‘..Evening JC – just had a late night BBC response re the Port Vale piece’
——–
Thank you,bally. Been in Glasgow most of today, so I am only now catching up.
Like yourself, I’m not at all sure what to make of it, except perhaps that the tendency to merely wait and report what the ‘Chairman’ might have to say seems to be a substitute for any kind of hard questioning in BBC Englandshire as much as here.
Perhaps the problem is that the broadcasting of football is of such great significance to the BBC as to turn them into sycophants afraid of being denied the ‘right’ to broadcsst the games of any particular team which falls out with them. I’ve heard of that happening. 🙂
Whatever the reason, it’s not a very satisfactory state of affairs.
Danish Pastry says:
August 2, 2014 at 6:59 pm
‘..We can moan until the coos come hame, but a principled protest might be in order…’
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DP, the major snag, I fear, would be the question as to who could lead such a ‘principled protest’ other than our ‘football authorities’-and who could believe in the integrity of a protest led by such unprincipled bodies?
I’ve been reflecting on the changes announced in the composition of the main SFA board.It may, just possibly, be that the combination of Topping, Lawwell, Petrie and the non-exec Johnston might just herald a process of cleansing, which might see an important resignation, and a move towards restoring some sense of honour and truth, and possibly corrective action in the light of, perhaps, fresh evidence that would require a re-hearing of the LNS tribunal…. But I fantasise, after seeing, with some envy, the joy and delight of sportspeople of all those sports whose Administrators have not been compromised by dodgy deals and who run honest-to- God fair competitions.
I would guess most people who frequent this site have been on the Original Randomthoughts blog by Paul McConville. If not do on to it as there is so much good information.
Paul was an extremely talented writer who was always entertaining as well as informative.
I had my reservations about the comments that followed his excellent blogs, especially the later blogs, so latterly I skipped the comments.
It didn’t stop me enjoying Paul’s blogs although I felt that his good work was somewhat undone by the more extreme comments that followed.
Den says:
August 2, 2014 at 10:21 pm
====================
It just shows how important good (and fair) moderation is to the quality of a site. Posters may occasionally fall out (perhaps too strong an expression) with the moderators but it’s their work which helps make it a place where fair, logical (mostly***) and honest discussion can be found and arguments rarely get too hot.
***well, I do sometimes post here. 😛
Thanks JC. I’ve fired off a response but I expect the same vague chicanery once again. Still, we need to keep them aware that folk out here are dissatisfied and are asking questions. Maybe it will keep them on their toes and stop them churning out all the same no questions asked statements
mungoboy says:
July 31, 2014 at 5:00 pm
‘.. from the Gallowgate into Moir Street ( where I grew up ).’
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I seem to remember that the glazier’s shop on the corner of Moir St and London Rd was several times in my boyhood and youth the target of trams jumping the points there. Possibly a good many years before your time, of course, given that the last tram ran in 1962! But I imagine there must have been a kind of folk-memory of those incidents?
9 Hours without a comment ,a new world record for the blog ,golds all round
Careful now. TRFC will be claiming responsibility for this world record. 😯
John Clark says:
August 2, 2014 at 10:18 pm
John, I really wish I shared your optimism. But, these guys were all fully engaged in what went down in 2012, they are part of the problem, and are unlikely to offer any solutions, except more of the same.
Far from apologising for their roles in this debacle, they have been party to giving the finger to the fans/customers on three main occasions:
1 The employment of Neil Doncaster as CEO of the SPFL an obvious reward for his efforts in 2012
2 The granting of nice wee bonus to Mr Regan for the same reasons as above
3 The unopposed re-appointment of Mr Ogilvie as president of the SFA.
I have a lot of admiration for the work Mr Lawwell is doing at Celtic, but, he is as big a walking clusterfeck as the rest of them, when it comes to operating at the national level.
John Clarke @ 1157pm
Thought that trams might be a bit off topic for those less fortunate who never experienced them so replied to you in a PM
OT – so apologies.
Just wanted to say thank you and congratulations from Essex to Glasgow for a splendid games.
Loving the cycling road races – so many familiar sights and nice weather for ducks.
Tincks says:
August 3, 2014 at 2:14 pm
6 0 Rate This
OT – so apologies.
Just wanted to say thank you and congratulations from Essex to Glasgow for a splendid games.
Loving the cycling road races – so many familiar sights and nice weather for ducks.
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This Road Race today is for real men. Normal Glasgow weather service has been resumed 😀
Danish Pastry says:
August 3, 2014 at 3:06 pm
This Road Race today is for real men. Normal Glasgow weather service has been resumed 😀
———————————
A bunch of second and third raters according to Bill McMurdo (insert your own choice of four letter word here).
Some people either cannot learn or choose not to learn.
I have sent Paul Forsyth of Scotland on Sunday the following email:
” To paul.forsyth@scotlandonsunday.com
Today at 3:07 PM
Dear Mr Forsyth,
Natural good manners and inbred politeness prevent me from ever calling any man a liar.
I prefer to use terms such as ‘misguided’ or ‘ill-informed’ of anyone who plainly abuses or disguises truth.
In your piece today in the ‘Scotland on Sunday’ Sports section, you use the phrase ” for the first time since the Ibrox club were banished from the top flight.’
My good nature insists that I must in charity conclude that you are the most ill-informed and/or misguided sports hack in the SMSM ( and believe me, that is saying something!).
Do you really not know that RFC(IL) lost its entitlement to be in Scottish Football , and was not ‘banished’ ?
That its majority shareholder had so run it into debt ( and, incidentally over many years deceived the football authorities and all of his fellow club owners, shareholders and the rest of the whole of Scottish Football about how much he was paying its players) that it DIED as a legal, sporting entity (except for the dirty legal mess it left behind for the Liquidators to deal with) ?
That a new club originally called Sevco Scotland had to be set up and had to APPLY, like any new club, for membership of a league, in order to APPLY for membership of the SFA?
That this new club, unsurprisingly, had its application to join the SPL refused, and was only admitted into the bottommost league of the SFL after a dirty deal ( in the eyes of many) which showed up a level of corruption in Scottish Football that is quite breathtaking?
And, incidentally, showed up a lot of actual journalists, not just sports hacks, as men of the weakest moral fibre who, failing to investigate this alleged corruption, are a disgrace to what they have the nerve to describe as a ‘profession’.
For your sake, I sincerely hope that you fall into the category of being ‘ill-informed’ or ‘misguided’.
If you claim to be neither of these, then I’m afraid all the good manners in the world could not inhibit my reaching a very negative conclusion about you , both personally and as a ‘journalist’.
For all our sakes, I hope the boil of corruption gets lanced, and true integrity returns to our Football administration.
It would be nice to think that you might try to be instrumental in restoring truth,honesty, right judgment and condign punishment on the worst offenders against our Sport.
You might then claim to be of real journalistic service to the wider community.
Your sincerely,
John Clark…..”
mungoboy says:
August 3, 2014 at 1:07 pm
‘..John Clarke @ 1157pm……replied to you in a PM’
——
Thank you, mungoboy. I have responded.But ( and I crave the indulgence of the blog) one other wee tram -topic observation : in Edinburgh, the fixtures on the walls that hold up the tram-wires are cheap-looking, utterly uninspiring ring-bolts. There is nothing of the beauty and dignity of the elaborate fixtures still to be seen on many of the walls of tenements and public buildings in Glasgow. 🙁
Tincks says:
August 3, 2014 at 3:16 pm
Aye, I am sure if the opening ceremony had been anywhere else, McMurdo minor’s attitude would have been completely different. Heard Chick Young on radio shortbread earlier in the week, talking about the games, he managed to mention Ibrox 15 times, in a three minute slot. (Yes, sad git that I am. I counted, though I may have missed the first one or two
)