The Way it Works

Bybroganrogantrevinoandhogan

The Way it Works

 

Many years ago, I read an article in some legal magazine or other which, to my mind, pointed out something that I had always presumed was obvious.

Namely, that unlike his English Counterpart, the Scottish solicitor is not just a drafter and processor of legal documents, he ( or she ) is a man of business who furnishes advice, and as often as not, will recommend a course of action – possibly involving many different steps or procedures- in any given situation.

Without going into an academic analysis of what this means, may I suggest that a simple definition is that the Scottish solicitor does not always simply do what they are told but will furnish the client with advice for, or against, a certain course of action.

The same applies to accountants and other professionals in my experience. When discussing any business situation, the client should always be aware of the pros and the cons. From there he or she makes a decision based on the advice given – which advice may be taken or rejected.
That is how things work.

If you think about what I have said above, then it follows that one of the principal things an adviser should do for any client, is to suggest a course of action that keeps the client out of court.

Court is a place of last resort. Litigation of any kind is expensive, brings uncertainty, is time consuming and acts as a barrier to unfettered and uninterrupted business planning, strategy and progress because no one can ever be sure of the outcome or the consequences of a court case.
In olden days, court meant choosing your champion to fight against your adversary’s champion. If your guy knocked the other guy of the horse and killed him outright with the lance then you won. It didn’t matter if your guy was also hit with your opponents lance and died a week later as a result – you were still the winner because the other guy died first.

Eventually, society did away with such courts and replaced them with courts of law and the men and women with wigs and gowns as opposed to the lance.

However, you can still win a court battle and suffer a fatal defeat as a consequence.
That is why a court of law should always be regarded as a place of last resort. No one should ever set out on a course of action which runs a high risk of ending up being disputed in court.

Sometimes, of course, a court action is inevitable. On other occasions, people adopt a course of action where the risk of things ending up in court is seen an as an acceptable risk.

This morning’s Daily Record ( and indeed yesterday’s edition ) is spouting David Murray’s mantra that HMRC knifed Rangers but adds there are no winners here. How very MSM. How very lacking in business understanding or searching for the truth.

So, let me explain something.

When you sit down with a firm of accountants who specialise in aggressive tax avoidance schemes such as an EBT scheme or a DOS scheme, one of the things that are spelt out to you is that the scheme you are about to embark upon may well be, indeed is likely to be, challenged in a court of law. Especially if you do not administer it to the letter.

Often as not, the client will be asked to sign up to a contract which specifies that the client will pay hefty fees to lawyers and accountants for setting up the scheme and that fee will include a contribution towards legal fees arising in the event of a legal challenge to the scheme.

That is stipulated at the very outset. You pay £x in advance because you know you are likely to be sued. You also get the benefit of advice which is designed to ensure that your scheme is absolutely watertight in terms of the law, but crucially, there is a rider which states that in the event that the court rules against you then the accountants or lawyers will not be held accountable as you are entering into the whole process knowing that there is a big risk of litigation – and you are told in writing that while you shouldn’t lose, you might lose.

This too is the way it works.

The business advisers will not want litigation, but from the outset they will cover their backs and make it plain to the client that if you sign on the dotted line for an aggressive tax avoidance scheme then you can expect HMRC to take you to court.

Accordingly, the protestations screaming out from the Daily Record this morning about how HMRC killed Rangers are balderdash and bunkum of the highest order.

HMRC did not knife Rangers, they did exactly what was expected of them in the circumstances and the people at MIH knew that the day they started off on any one of their tax avoidance schemes.
Taking the risk in the first place killed Rangers or Rangers PLC if you prefer.

However, the events of yesterday and the day before throw up some other matters worth considering and remembering.

The first is the woeful state of the Rangers accounts by 2005 when there had been yet another share issue underwritten by David Murray. Those accounts showed Rangers PLC to be in a shocking financial state, despite all the rhetoric and dressing from the Directors and the Accountants.

More or less immediately Murray chose to put the club up for sale as it was obvious that the financial traincrash could simply not continue.

However, despite years of searching no buyer could be found.

Further, it should also be remembered that Rangers PLC knew all about the small tax case long before Craig Whyte came along. Those liabilities stemmed from around 2001 but at no time during the Murray era at Ibrox did Sir David put aside the money to pay a bill which no one at Rangers disputed as being due at any time.

Whyte stressed the need for this to be paid long before he ever got the keys to the Marble Staircase, but it wasn’t and there can be only one of two reasons for that.

Either Sir David just didn’t pay the bill concerned ….. or he couldn’t!

The fact is that long before Craig Whyte appeared David Murray could have paid that bill or reached an agreement to pay that bill. However he didn’t and for a period of several years he simply decided he wanted out …. Needed out ….. at any cost!

There is no doubt that he gambled hard and fast with Rangers Football Club, and their finances and their supporters loyalties. He knew , or ought to have known, well in advance that a prolonged and regularly used aggressive tax avoidance scheme, legal or not, was bound to attract the adverse interest and attention of HMRC.

Sir David Murray has been lauded up and down the country for his so called business acumen and business knowledge. He was knighted for the same and received all sorts of unprecedented backing from banks and other institutions.

Does anyone reading this really believe that such a man did not have the foresight, or the advisers around him who had the foresight, to see and know that a large and prolonged dispute with the revenue authorities may well have an adverse effect on the viability and sellability of his business?
Such a suggestion is simply not credible.

Further when the HMRC interest came, Murray’s men, if not Murray himself, did their very best to try and hide the existence of the scheme, the documents surrounding the scheme, the details of the scheme and the intention of the scheme.

They hid all this away from HMRC, The SFA, The SPL and anyone else in authority, with the result that those authorities and bodies had no option but to run to the courts, set up tribunals and convene formal hearings.

When someone does not tell you the truth, starts hiding documents and obfuscating that is the way it works.

However, that is not all that yesterday brought.

The news that Collier Bristow have apparently agreed ( through their insurers no doubt ) to pay the liquidator of Rangers some £20M shows that taking into account the litigation risk, someone somewhere thought it worth making a payment to make a bad situation go away.
Imagine that? What bad situation could that be?

Would it be that somehow or other, creditors, officials and all sorts of other people were misled by a leading firm of solicitors in relation to the affairs of Rangers PLC? Could it really be the case that things were so bad financially at Ibrox, that the only way for even Whyte to be able to get the sale to go through at the princely sum of £1 plus the official bank debt was to have his people mislead funders and eventual creditors?

What does that say about David Murray’s stewardship and the absolute urgent need to get Lloyds TSB out of the picture? Was there really no one else or no other way to take on the debts of Rangers PLC? Apparently not — and that can only be because someone chose to gamble with the finances of the club and leave it in a precarious state.

I am told that when Lloyds took over that account they expressed amazement at how MIH and Rangers PLC were allowed to run up the debts they had with HBOS. Apparently there was incredulity at some of the figures and covenants.

So , when we read in the Record this morning that the HMRC Big Tax case inadvertently brought down Rangers it is very easy to overlook the debt due to the bank, how it arose, the sums due to the same bank through MIH, the extent of the sums due, the banks attitude and the possible attitude and course of action had Whyte not taken them away.

Remember that the same bank stepped straight into MIH and began selling off its assets, and that low and behold the same management team who engineered the EBT scheme have openly admitted that there is an unexplained shortfall in the employees’ pension scheme of over £20 Million.

Do you think the employees who have lost out on pension provision are the slightest concerned about whether the tax avoidance scheme funds and their use are legal or not ? – or do you think they might argue that the money used for these so called “discretionary payments” should have been used to fund a proper legally constituted pension scheme which the company and its directors undertook to pay into under contract?

There is still substantial debt due to Lloyds by MIH and part of that debt is the amount by which David Murray and MIH underwrote and guaranteed that last share issue of Rangers PLC in 2004/2005. The principal sum due under that guarantee ( excluding interest and charges ) was greater than the principal sum claimed by HMRC in the big tax case.

Go figure.

However, this saga is far from over especially with regard to “contractually due” severance payments which look as if they will come back to the FTT in the event of the parties concerned not reaching agreement on the tax allegedly due.

Now, this is interesting because apparently there are a number of documents in existence which show that certain players received a payment of £x at the end of their contract as part of a severance deal.

At the time these were made, my recollection is that under normal severance agreement legislation the first £30,000 would be tax free but after that any sums were taxable.

The FTT has never been asked to rule on these payments, and has never heard any evidence about the legality or otherwise of paying these sums gross of tax into an offshore trust. All of that may yet be to come.

However, the most interesting part of this for me is that further court action may be taken in relation to these matters failing agreement between HMRC… and whom?

Rangers PLC ( the employer ) is in Liquidation so perhaps HMRC might claim some of the money from the Liquidator who has just received the £20M from Collier Bristow – then again it could well be that Ticketus have something to say about that.

In his last statement about MIH, David Murray openly proclaimed that the company was all but finished and revealed the pension shortfall and so on – so I doubt if any agreement of any meaning will be reached there.

That then leaves those who supposedly benefited from the contractually due severance payments – namely the players.

Maybe, in the absence of a now defunct employer, they will be asked to cough up the tax.

No doubt they will all go and consult their lawyers and accountants – the men and woman of business – who will give them their best advice – but you can bet your bottom dollar that any such advice will include a paragraph or ten which starts something along the lines of “ However, here is the potential risk in the event of you deciding to …………. “

That is the way it works……. And always has done.

About the author

broganrogantrevinoandhogan author

Boot wearing football, sport & total nonsense fan-- Gourmet, Bon Viveur and eedgit! - Oh and I write a bit occasionally!

1,546 Comments so far

Danish PastryPosted on6:28 am - Jul 17, 2014


HirsutePursuit says:
July 17, 2014 at 12:57 am
3 0 Rate This
———

Mcr.uk.com takes you to Duff & Phelps.

Jings.

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helpmaboabPosted on8:04 am - Jul 17, 2014


McMurdo: what a twisted,bitter perspective of the biggest sporting event in Glasgow’s history. Sour grapes just doesn’t cover it. What an embarrassment.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on8:52 am - Jul 17, 2014


One for the Accountants out there http://bit.ly/1nMo4mK @paullarkin74

I think he is asking the question was this business set up so as to fail.

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wottpiPosted on9:20 am - Jul 17, 2014


I see that Scott Gallagher has been set free from Govan despite signing a two year contract last year.
http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/3395-gall-signs-new-deal

As discussed previously, with the talent in front of him the time to test the lad should have been during the rise back up. However McCoist either felt the guy was never good enough from the start (if so why keep him on the books for all these years) or he never trusted his own managerial ability to dominate the plumbers and joiners of the lower leagues and wanted to continually loan out Gallagher so he could be a guinea pig for some other club.
Either way the whole saga of the third keeper along with the signings of Boyd Miller Simmonsen and Zaliukas says tons about the previous and current aspirations of trying to develop young talent.
Cost cutting is no doubt the main aim at present.

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AllyjamboPosted on9:33 am - Jul 17, 2014


hector says:
July 16, 2014 at 11:27 pm

To be called ‘third rate’ by a man of such disrepute should be seen as a compliment. Like many, I’m sure, I too have no real interest in athletics, or many of the other sports contained in the Commonwealth Games, but I’d never disrespect any of the participants by ‘rating’ them in the way McMurdo did. They are all sportsmen and women, magnificent in their dedication and talents, we should all be jealous and full of admiration. I know I am.

I’d expect, though, that if the majority of the events were taking place at Ibrox, and MP was being used by many of the athletes, that, in McMurdo’s view, it would be the greatest show on earth – after TRFC’s US tour, of course!

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justshateredPosted on11:19 am - Jul 17, 2014


OT and I don’t know if it was discussed after the match, but do Germany get to keep the World Cup after winning it for the third time?
I know that Brazil got to keep the original after winning it in 1970.

I also agree with the article that it was the creation of the EBT scheme which led to the enquiry by the Tax man. This, and the fact that there had already been a history in the Share Option Scheme, meant that Hector would follow it all the way.

The problem is that with one hand RFC/’The Rangers’ fans want Hector to win where he will still get nothing and yet want him to lose so they can claim a victory. A strange mind set to say the least.

Someone posted a long time ago that if Harold Shipman had lived to face trial, and been found guilty of only 37 murders instead of the 100 he was charged with, would he not have been a serial killer or would the media have pronounced him innocent?
Obviously there is a huge difference in the seriousness of the charges but the issue remains. If someone is charged with numerous offences but found guilty in less that half of them then in the eyes of the Scottish media they are innocent. It is, as I said above, a strange mind set.

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hangerheadPosted on12:02 pm - Jul 17, 2014


justshatered says:
July 17, 2014 at 11:19 am
4 0 Rate This

OT and I don’t know if it was discussed after the match, but do Germany get to keep the World Cup after winning it for the third time?
I know that Brazil got to keep the original after winning it in 1970.
______________________________________________________________________________

Umm, Actually, this is the first time Germany have won it, the previous 3 wins were West German…they inherited the history you see.

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neepheidPosted on12:16 pm - Jul 17, 2014


justshatered says:
July 17, 2014 at 11:19 am

Someone posted a long time ago that if Harold Shipman had lived to face trial, and been found guilty of only 37 murders instead of the 100 he was charged with, would he not have been a serial killer or would the media have pronounced him innocent?
=============
Shipman was tried and convicted of 15 murders in 2000. He died in prison in 2004. He is suspected of murdering at least 250. There was an interesting documentary on TV a couple of weeks ago.

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peterjungPosted on12:19 pm - Jul 17, 2014


July 17, 2014 at 12:02 pm

 

0

 

justshatered says:
July 17, 2014 at 11:19 am
4 0 Rate This

OT and I don’t know if it was discussed after the match, but do Germany get to keep the World Cup after winning it for the third time?
I know that Brazil got to keep the original after winning it in 1970.
==================================

No, I believe the original rule was a stipulation of Jules Remit himself. FIFA changed this rule sometime after the introduction of the new trophy.

Another interesting fact is that the trophy is hollow. If it was solid gold it would weigh something like 80kgs!

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ekt1mPosted on12:19 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Wottpi at 9.20am. Is this not the same Scott Gallagher who last year was lauded by McCoist as being on a par with and equal to all the goalkeepers in the SPL? Has he been freed?

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peterjungPosted on12:20 pm - Jul 17, 2014


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_Trophy

Meant to post the link as above

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yourhavingalaughPosted on12:25 pm - Jul 17, 2014


McMurdo Jnr
2nd & 3rd rate athletes ,I take it this guy has not been near a football park over Govan way in the past few years watching well paid so called profesionals ,some tribute acts are really quite decent ,but junior ,your tribute act has nothing on the athletes that will be giving their all at these games, your faither must be so proud to have a little devil of a son like you.

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mcfcPosted on1:27 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Delusions of Football

McCoist’s comparison with the Dundee v Man City friendly can’t go uncommented. “Look at Manchester City v Dundee the other day. City lose but nobody really bothers. However, whenever we lose, no matter who it’s against, it’s really disappointing.”

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ally-mccoist-rips-rangers-flops-3871762

• Why are The Rangers half a world away playing FOURTH TIER semi pros when they could have joined in City’s Scottish tour? Can’t GW pull strings at City anymore – or is he too busy keeping the lights on – or maybe no third club would lend their stadium – or maybe Ally feared a thrashing that would have made Brazil’s 7-1 look like a birthday party.

• City had 7 players in the World Cup semis, 3 in the final. Ally – how many are you missing to the last week of the World Cup ?

• It was a friendly – didn’t see the match but reports say it was a good run out for youth players, injury returnees and new signings on both sides. Well done Dundee – apparently City didn’t exactly shine – thanks for the match. Remind me, how many youth players did Ally run out against Ventura County Fusion.

• Hoping for another good match at Hearts tomorrow.

Btw – wasted 5 minutes of my life skipping through the video of the Californian calamity. Reality check or what – The Rangers are a glorified pub team and Ally doesn’t seem to understand that yet!!! The Rangers’ first season in professional football could be very long and very painful – but Ally must stay. – We Are The Pubteam.

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joburgt1mPosted on1:48 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:
July 17, 2014 at 1:27 pm

We Are The Pubteam. – you just made my day with that 😆 😆

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mcfcPosted on2:16 pm - Jul 17, 2014


joburgt1m says:
July 17, 2014 at 1:48 pm
===================
Glad to be of service – have a good one – WATP 🙂

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wottpiPosted on2:35 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Usually a bit slow on the sports desk between the Euro qualifying rounds and the dull pre-season friendlies. You would have thought someone with time on their hands would have been asking permission from their editor to follow up what happened to Dave King and Richard Gough given their high profile pronouncements a few months ago?

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andycoloPosted on2:56 pm - Jul 17, 2014


The old land deals issue is surfacing. Can anyone point me in the direction of the demolition of these accusations that have been posted on here.

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AuldheidPosted on2:59 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Now that the Big Tax case has been booted out or at least booted into the future, and since Mr McCoist is claiming vindication and innocence, it is time to look again at the wee tax case.

Readers (including journos) will all be convinced by now in light of the evidence sent to the SPFL and their lawyers Harper MacLeod, that Rangers from 2000 to 2002 paid two players by a means not available to any other clubs. Indeed LNS himself justified his decision re no sporting advantage on the basis that all clubs could have used ebts, to rule out that Rangers had indeed obtained a sporting advantage.

So we now know that this was not an option open to any club playing against Rangers in the SPL from season 2000/2001 to 2002/03.

The BTC UTT result now cements the wtc implications in stone and those implications are that any players Rangers fielded in seasons 2000/01 to 2002/03 paid via the DOS ebt scheme that led to the wee tax case, were not only ineligible because those payments differed from the BTC ones in terms of legality but that Rangers must have gained a sporting advantage from using payments no other club could use.

The implications of this perhaps explain the SPFL’s reluctance to respond to the last letter to Harper MacLeod, because apart from the possibility of title removal and even reallocating because sporting advantage did accrue, there is also the question of SPL prize money disbursement to all clubs based on the position that they finished in the SPL in season 2000/2001, 2001/2002 and 2002/2003. You would have to know which games De Boer and Flo played in and nullify the points in those games to be absolutely sure how many points should be removed.

However:
In 2000/2001 there was a 50 point gap between RFC in second place and St Mirren in last. At 3 pts a game if De Boer or Flo together or individually played in more than 17 games in the second half of season 2000/01 then every club would move up a place in the prize ladder.

In 2001 /02 the gap was 64 points so De Boer/Flo had to play in 22 games all through that season to move every club up a step,

In 2002/03 the gap was 69 points when only De Boer counts because Flo had gone and De Boer switched to the BTC ebts in Feb 2003, then he would have to have played 23 games in the first part of that season for all clubs to move up the prize ladder. This is impossible so if we assume he played in 17 games and 51 pts were removed from RFC’s total of 97 points then any club with more than 46 pts would have moved up the ladder, which was from Aberdeen on 49 in eight place up to Celtic on 97 (who lost the title itself on goal difference).

So lets have a bit less of the RFC as victim card please.

Its a myth to save face.*

Sure Rangers have lost a lot but it was largely self inflicted, the real victims are the other clubs as seasons 2000/01 to 2002/03 exemplify.

* to save face you face the truth , not create myths.

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Danish PastryPosted on4:10 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:
July 17, 2014 at 1:27 pm
23 1 Rate This

• Why are The Rangers half a world away playing …
———-

That is a question many fans must be asking. On the face of it, it looks like a holiday for the lads. The fitba seems of secondary importance since they didn’t even play on a regular pitch.

Surely not a ‘charitable exercise’?

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Danish PastryPosted on4:17 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Auldheid says:
July 17, 2014 at 2:59 pm
23 1 Rate This
———

Bravo Auldheid.

Question is, will the clubs concerned be willing to make an issue of this? If they don’t, I see it staying under that big carpet.

Have you considered submitting your piece for publication? You could fire it off to sports desks or editors. Some newspapers do welcome articles written by readers.

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mcfcPosted on4:17 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Auldheid says:
July 17, 2014 at 2:59 pm
* to save face you face the truth , not create myths.
====================
When you put it so clearly “myth” and “delusion” just don’t capture the willful ignorance and defiant disregard for demonstrable fact – the hallmarks of a cult. Thankfully this one is small, localized, poorly financed and unlikely to attract new members.

EU considers action on cults – http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/131927.stm

The report says the rise of cults should be seen as a sign of a widespread spiritual crisis in modern society. It says: “The attraction of cults should be seen as the symptom of a profound social, moral and civic disquiet and in the light of a longing for a meaning and purpose in life which is no longer being satisfied by the traditional churches.

“The potential dangers of many cults primarily affect individuals, including young people, possibly damaging their mental and physical integrity or their social and financial standing,” the report continues.

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mcfcPosted on4:35 pm - Jul 17, 2014


City Confidence is like Virginity . .
. . . you can only lose it once.

PMG emphasizing that Stockbridge’s secret share option has spooked potential investors in the City and at Ibrox.. If he had a secret from everyone at Ibrox, what other secrets remain to be revealed – after all – Stockbridge was a tiddler in the shark tank – so anything he got others will have in spades.

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/not-an-option/

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StevieBCPosted on5:31 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:
July 17, 2014 at 4:35 pm

PMG emphasizing that Stockbridge’s secret share option has spooked potential investors in the City and at Ibrox…
===================
Extract from AIM statement from RIFC;

“…The current Board was legally compelled to issue the shares to Mr Stockbridge on these terms [as per his contract of employment] as it has no jurisdiction to amend, change or alter the share issue, whatever its opinion of this agreement – a legacy of the previous regime…”

1) If there are indeed any potential investors, they would/should get a bad vibe about RIFC and walk/run away.

2) Current main shareholders – you would think – would be left with the distinct impression that the current RIFC/RFC boards don’t have a full grasp on what is going on, [e.g. Wallace & Nash]. Yet after the AIM statement, nobody fell on their sword and – as far as we know – nobody offered their resignation.
And to attempt to blame the ‘previous regime’ after such a long time was a bit desperate.
[Unless their copy of his contract also ended up in the shredder ?]

And as mcfc/PMacG allude to, the natural reaction is: is there anything else still to be uncovered ?

But as with anything related to the Govan club, is this the real/whole story ? Who knows… 🙄

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mcfcPosted on5:45 pm - Jul 17, 2014


StevieBC says:
July 17, 2014 at 5:31 pm
===================
Maybe BS had a wee side letter that wasn’t on file. Live by the side letter, die by the side letter 🙂

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mcfcPosted on6:18 pm - Jul 17, 2014


What every Bailiff, Canvasser and Salesman Knows . . .

. . . . It’s best to call when someone is at home

Who exactly will be at Ibrox from RIFC and TRFC on Saturday to feel the full force of their displeasure?. Most are in the USA – some in the City – some in Lebanon – some on the run from Interpol. Sorry me Ma and Pa are out, can you come back some other time – ta.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/u/rangers-legend-john-brown-backs-sons-of-struth-march.1405595620

Rangers legend John Brown backs Sons of Struth march

RANGERS legend John Brown today gave his backing to the Sons of Struth as fans get set to march to Ibrox on Saturday.

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Cluster OnePosted on6:40 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:

July 17, 2014 at 6:18 pm
Rangers legend John Brown backs Sons of Struth march.
There is a Pink March in Glasgow on saturday to.
Lets hope they don’t clash.
PS. Has there been a letter box installed?

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Paulmac2Posted on7:27 pm - Jul 17, 2014


StevieBC says:
July 17, 2014 at 5:31 pm
………………………

I played golf with an old friend last week who I haven’t seen for about a year…he is a trade investigator at The London Stock Exchange…after our game in the bar we got talking about the ups and downs of the Exchange…without prompting he mentioned he works alongside the AIM investigators…and the main story with them currently is what is going on at a certain club…in his view it would make your teeth curl…

It was a very interesting discussion on how the Stock Exchange works regarding investigations…

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mcfcPosted on7:32 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Cluster One says:
July 17, 2014 at 6:40 pm
There is a Pink March in Glasgow on saturday to.
Lets hope they don’t clash.
=====================================
Bear on bear action ????

sorry – couldn’t resist – I’ll get my coat

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pau1mart1nPosted on7:39 pm - Jul 17, 2014


1nil saints.

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hectorPosted on7:53 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Not sure how the stockmarket works . On 15 /7/14 three large trades of 2 x100,000 and 1x 50,000 rangers shares . Today on LSE page two more large trades pop up for 600,000 and 350,000 still dated for !5/7/14. Why are large market sensitive trades taking a couple of days to surface. Over to you clever types. 😕 😕

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easyJamboPosted on8:22 pm - Jul 17, 2014


hector says: July 17, 2014 at 7:53 pm
Not sure how the stockmarket works . On 15 /7/14 three large trades of 2 x100,000 and 1x 50,000 rangers shares . Today on LSE page two more large trades pop up for 600,000 and 350,000 still dated for !5/7/14. Why are large market sensitive trades taking a couple of days to surface. Over to you clever types. 😕 😕
====================================
The delayed trades normally happen with large volumes of shares. I’d guess that it is down to the time required for a stockbroker to match up a seller and a buyer.

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upthehoopsPosted on8:37 pm - Jul 17, 2014


FC Luzern 1-1 St Johnstone. That is a really decent result to take back to Scotland.

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on9:59 pm - Jul 17, 2014


upthehoops says:
July 17, 2014 at 8:37 pm

FC Luzern 1-1 St Johnstone. That is a really decent result to take back to Scotland.
———–
2 home draws with our other reps though.
At least they’re still in the tie.

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paulsatimPosted on10:06 pm - Jul 17, 2014


Irish clubs doing well!
Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh ‏@Ciaran_O 1h
Rosenborg 1 – 2 @sligorovers. What a stunning result. Irish clubs in Europe this season (as stands) P8 W6 D2 L0 GF21 GA3.

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GoosyGoosyPosted on10:18 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:
July 17, 2014 at 1:27 pm

We Are The Pubteam
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Absolutely brilliant mcfc
This could be the riposte of the decade
The best line yet to silence ” wee arra people”
or “pygmies” for short

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Danish PastryPosted on10:23 pm - Jul 17, 2014


mcfc says:
July 17, 2014 at 5:45 pm
22 0 Rate This

… Live by the side letter, die by the side letter.
———–

Very well put. Outrage soon regarding BS’ and others secret contracts? You can just hear Stockbridge: ‘Aye, but it wiz legal, just like the EBTs.’

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Danish PastryPosted on10:34 pm - Jul 17, 2014


paulsatim says:
July 17, 2014 at 10:06 pm
3 1 Rate This

Irish clubs doing well!
Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh ‏@Ciaran_O 1h
Rosenborg 1 – 2 @sligorovers. What a stunning result. Irish clubs in Europe this season (as stands) P8 W6 D2 L0 GF21 GA3.
———-

Well done too. And to think that Scottish football becoming like ‘the League of Ireland’ would be the ultimate humiliation — according to some 😀

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yourhavingalaughPosted on12:18 am - Jul 18, 2014


Just watched a programme on the last games in Edinbrugh in 86
McMurdo Jnr ,you just dont understand the long term implecations of an imbeciles involvement
We had Thatcher and Robert Maxwell involveld,a lot of similarities to whats happening at your club.
I think the end result will be ditto.

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CastofthousandsPosted on12:57 am - Jul 18, 2014


HirsutePursuit says:
July 17, 2014 at 12:57 am

“Since we are looking at the old stuff again, we shouldn’t forget this:”
——————————————-
The date on your Project William correspondence concurs with the Project Charlotte document that TheFrontOfTheBus has posthumously published. It looks familiar to me too but I couldn’t locate it amongst my library.

An earlier incarnation of the restructuring plan was dubbed Project Roosevelt. These names appear unrelated so provide no clue in themselves.

When looking over the Project Roosevelt correspondence a few passages caught my eye, at least one of which might overlap your specialist interests.

Roosevelt’s preferred option (“Option A”) would be to:
 hive up the business and assets of the operating company to the holding company

 make good any asset deficit in the operating company by either subscribing for equity or lending money to the operating company by way of convertible debt

 then liquidate the operating company by way of a members’ voluntary
liquidation, ensuring that all actual creditors have been paid out in full, on the basis that it would constitute a solvent restructuring of the business

The alternative (“Option B”) would be to place the operating company in receivership or administration and then acquire most of the business and assets of the operating company via a pre-pack.

This looks a bit what like has happened except with option B first. Perhaps the hiving off of Ibrox and MP as has been suggested many times will be a delayed response to their preferred option not being achieved initially.

Further.

The SFA Articles of Association also have a membership requirement and permit that membership to be transferred intra-group as part of a solvent restructuring. Again the position will need to be reviewed, explained and any necessary approvals obtained.

This seems to suggest to me that perhaps the solvent restructuring regime was in fact employed to allow the insolvent transfer of membership. You will know better than me if this template fits the outline.

Finally

The potential liability, if HMRC is successful, could be as much as £40M. The operating company has taken its own advice in relation to the Tax Claim and is defending the Tax Claim. The Tax Claim will be heard in November 2011.HMRC has indicated that if it fails at first instance then it intends to appeal the decision.

This tells me that back in September 2010 when Project Roosevelt was being discussed, six months before the Motherwell Born Billionaire took control, HMRC’s stance was well kent.

This is based on the premise that the material issued by CharlotteFakeovers was genuine, which just about everybody believes it is. Just a pity that with the out of court settlement by Collyer Bristow its provenance will not be tested in an official public forum.

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upthehoopsPosted on7:20 am - Jul 18, 2014


Castofthousands says:
July 18, 2014 at 12:57 am

This tells me that back in September 2010 when Project Roosevelt was being discussed, six months before the Motherwell Born Billionaire took control, HMRC’s stance was well kent.
==========================================

Their stance is, as Craig Whyte put it, to appeal, appeal, and appeal again.

It must be hugely frustrating for HMRC when they see a case where rich men get richer without paying tax on a ‘loan’. The employer sees fit to guarantee them the money in a side letter which he felt the need to conceal from the authorities. In court, witnesses allegedly stated they were told they would never need to pay the loans back. Yet Scottish based Judges are continually okay with all of this!

As I say, It must be hugely frustrating for HMRC.

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Danish PastryPosted on7:22 am - Jul 18, 2014


Sports Hotline page has some fan responses to AM’s moral outrage. Surprised they printed some of them.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sports-hotline-callers-hit-out-3870939

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Danish PastryPosted on7:43 am - Jul 18, 2014


Castofthousands says:
July 18, 2014 at 12:57 am
3 0 Rate This

… An earlier incarnation of the restructuring plan was dubbed Project Roosevelt. These names appear unrelated so provide no clue in themselves.
———–

Depends which Roosevelt maybe. Theodore R. and ‘teddy bears’ became synonymous, according to urban legend.

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exfallhoose2012Posted on8:50 am - Jul 18, 2014


Hopes, 7.20.
You cannot blame the judge – he no doubt passed a judgement on legality not morality. I have no doubt that the laws were loosely constructed to allow rich and powerful people to avoid paying tax. Certain Football clubs have used these loopholes to do likewise. It is the law that needs attention!

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loamfeetPosted on8:50 am - Jul 18, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
July 18, 2014 at 7:43 am

Depends which Roosevelt maybe. Theodore R. and ‘teddy bears’ became synonymous, according to urban legend.

———————————–

Unfortunately for Rangers fans, that particular legend does not end well for the bear…

“[..] the hunt guides tracked down an old black bear that the dogs had trailed quite a distance and attacked. The guides tied the bear to a willow tree and called for the President. But Roosevelt took one look at the old bear and refused to shoot it. He felt doing so would be unsportsmanlike. However, since it was injured and suffering, Roosevelt ordered that the bear be put down to end its pain.”

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Carfins FinestPosted on9:53 am - Jul 18, 2014


CL Group stages brings in around £12million. For TRFC to get there they would need to build a squad, not a team,a squad able to compete at that level. So how much would need spent to secure such a squad? 20 – 30 million. Thats on top of the current costs just to keep afloat. So lets say £20 million to win £12 million. Just does’nt add up and I am sure the ‘Institutional Investors’ have already worked this out. Gonna need a bigger begging bowl.

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Danish PastryPosted on10:10 am - Jul 18, 2014


loamfeet says:
July 18, 2014 at 8:50 am
6 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says:
July 18, 2014 at 7:43 am

Depends which Roosevelt maybe. Theodore R. and ‘teddy bears’ became synonymous, according to urban legend.

———————————–

Unfortunately for Rangers fans, that particular legend does not end well for the bear…

“[..] the hunt guides tracked down an old black bear that the dogs had trailed quite a distance and attacked. The guides tied the bear to a willow tree and called for the President. But Roosevelt took one look at the old bear and refused to shoot it. He felt doing so would be unsportsmanlike. However, since it was injured and suffering, Roosevelt ordered that the bear be put down to end its pain.”
———-

The whole Theodore ‘Teddy Bear’ Roosevelt story is loaded with relevant symbolic imagery, if anyone’s looking for it …

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Danish PastryPosted on11:17 am - Jul 18, 2014


easyJambo says:
July 17, 2014 at 8:22 pm
11 0 Rate This

hector says: July 17, 2014 at 7:53 pm
Not sure how the stockmarket works . On 15 /7/14 three large trades of 2 x100,000 and 1x 50,000 rangers shares . Today on LSE page two more large trades pop up for 600,000 and 350,000 still dated for !5/7/14. Why are large market sensitive trades taking a couple of days to surface. Over to you clever types.
====================================
The delayed trades normally happen with large volumes of shares. I’d guess that it is down to the time required for a stockbroker to match up a seller and a buyer.
————

950,000 shares sold, and someone bought them for 30p+ ! If It was Stockbridge who sold, who on earth was the buyer?

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yourhavingalaughPosted on11:20 am - Jul 18, 2014


Who on earth was the buyer?
Someone with money to burn!!!!!

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justbecauseyoureparanoidPosted on11:47 am - Jul 18, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
July 18, 2014 at 7:22 am
9 2 Rate This

Sports Hotline page has some fan responses to AM’s moral outrage. Surprised they printed some of them.

Just read them – a “wow just wow” moment (c RTC)

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Tic 6709Posted on11:47 am - Jul 18, 2014


vGiovanni says:

July 18, 2014 at 10:47 am
I understand that when the Rugby Sevens kick off next Saturday we are going to see a gleaming Ibrox Stadium courtesy of the Commonwealth Games. State Aid anyone.
==========================
You can polish the uppers doesn’t mean there is no holes in your shoes.

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scapaflowPosted on12:43 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Tic 6709 says:
July 18, 2014 at 11:47 am

You can polish coprolite.

There is a Lloyds Bank Coprolite on display in York, perhaps the Board should offer to rename Ibrox the HBOS Coprolite.

Funnily enough the Lloyds Bank Coprolite was also found to be infested with intestinal parasites!

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mcfcPosted on2:33 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Next Slide Please Sandy

You’ve got to wonder what Wallace and Nash are pitching to the City boys. Wouldn’t you love to be a fly on the wall in those meetings – and at the preparation meetings 🙂

RIFC Board Meeting – May 2014

GW: So gentlemen at our last meeting we agreed the following points to present to City investors. Let’s just go through them one more time to get our stories straight – I mean rehearse our presentation:

The Investment Opportunity
• History – Impressive – a trophy won every year of our history
• Customer Loyalty – Stable – reduced by only 55% on last year
• Mid Term Revenue – Secure – promotion guaranteed
• Long Term Revenue – Exciting – Champions League qualification and victory assured
• Playing Squad – Hand Picked – from the vast array of free, ex-Rangers men over 30
• Football Management – Shimply The Best – no one can match our man’s record
• Facilities – World Class – you can see they don’t come cheap.
• Strategy – Just Win – we’ll just win everything, no problem, we’re entitled
• Future Returns – Oh Yes – what can go wrong,, this time next year we’ll be millionaires

Due Diligence
• Budget Deficit – Reduced – we now make our own tea and type our own letters
• HMRC – Victorious – but that’s an entirely different plc clumpany thing
• Deeds – Definitely – there are deeds
• Side Letters – None – there are no side letters officer
• Onerous Contracts – Good Progress – we’ve nearly finished writing them
• Contingent Liability – Exaggerated – Charles assures us there is nothing to worry about
• UEFA Licence – Just Admin Stuff – Platini fully understands the oldco/newco paradox
• Outstanding Share Options – None Known – we’ll ask all the beneficial owners once we identify them.

Questions
• Are there any questions before you invest other people’s money ?

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yourhavingalaughPosted on3:22 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Been messing about on the AIM site ,interesting that the statement about the loan being moved from Laxleys states the same conditions where being transfered also which would include the securities that Laxley had but according to comments recently the Loan Ranger ,has he been payed yet,did not have any security on his wonga ,can anyone clarify this.
Bit of a quite day on here,off out to participate in some Glasgow Fair Friday refreshments.

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yourhavingalaughPosted on3:30 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Ok guys
One for the road
Simon and his Uncle are going to an away game when their car is in a fatal collision
Unfortunately Simons uncle is killed outright and Simon had sustained serious injuries which meant the amputaion of his arms and legs
The surgeons suggested that they could possibly graft the arms and legs from his uncle
This was done with great success all it required was for time to heal
While recovering Simon took up the guitar and became quite accomplished that he entered for Stars in your Eyes and was picked for the show.
On his appearance Mathew introduced Simon to the audience and explained the terrible tradgedy that had befalled his family
Mathew then asked Simon to tell the Audience who he was going to be tonight
Tonight Ladies & Gentlemen I am going to be

Simon & Halfuncle

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Madbhoy24941Posted on4:02 pm - Jul 18, 2014


yourhavingalaugh says:

July 18, 2014 at 3:30 pm

Simon & Halfuncle

———————————————

“Get yir coat”

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CampbellsmoneyPosted on4:09 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Cue The Sound of Silence

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BroadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on4:35 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Some S+G lyrics for fans of the Ibrox club:

….And I hide behind the shield of my illusion
So I’ll continue to continue to pretend
My (club) will never end

Anyhoo, has this been mentioned on TSFM before:

(from Sunderland FC’s Wiki page)

In January 1957, a letter was delivered to The Football Association (FA) from “Mr Smith”, in which the author made allegations that Sunderland were making illegal payments to players.[64] The FA sent an investigation team, which found evidence of illegal payments in the Sunderland accounts, including a £3,000 (£61,000 today) bill, supposedly for straw to cover the pitch.[25][64] The investigators uncovered a string of similar accounting glitches; contract companies were purposely charging Sunderland excessive fees for services, and later sending credit-notes to redress the balance. These credit notes were passed on to players.[64] In total, just over £5,000 (£102,000 today) was handled in this way.[25][64] The club’s chairman and chief financial officer, along with three other club directors, were permanently suspended. Sunderland were fined £5,000 (£102,000 today), manager Murray was fined £200 (£4,100 today), and a number of players, including record-signing Trevor Ford were temporarily suspended€ from the game.[25][64] In the aftermath of the event, manager Bill Murray was replaced by Alan Brown

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StevieBCPosted on4:41 pm - Jul 18, 2014


hangerhead says:
July 17, 2014 at 12:02 pm

justshatered says:
July 17, 2014 at 11:19 am

OT and I don’t know if it was discussed after the match, but do Germany get to keep the World Cup after winning it for the third time? I know that Brazil got to keep the original after winning it in 1970.
______________________________________________________________________________

Umm, Actually, this is the first time Germany have won it, the previous 3 wins were West German…they inherited the history you see.
================================
OK since nobody commented on that great observation from hh above…

We could now have an old country/new country debate wrt the World Cup winners. 😕
The ‘oldcountry’ won 3, whilst the ‘newcountry’ has won 1.
And shirley a new country easily trumps any new company registration number ?

But FIFA would no doubt prefer to ‘preserve’ the history to maintain the illusion that it is the same country – because it makes for better PR/marketing to have another European powerhouse catching up with Brasil’s haul of 5 trophies.

OK, just being pedantic…but if I was Italian I might have a firmer view about which country has actually won 4 WC’s…

On the FIFA website, in the history section it has ‘Germany FR’, ‘Germany DR’, and for recent years just ‘Germany’.
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/matches/world-cup/team=44023/index.html

And, yet on the same site, FIFA report;
“Germany are the 2014 FIFA World Cup™ champions, lifting the Trophy for the fourth time in their history…adding another star to the Europeans’ crest following their triumphs in 1954, 1974 and 1990…”
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/round=255959/match=300186501/match-report.html

[Oh no…does this inconsistency from FIFA indirectly give support to TRFC’s claims ?]

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andygraham.66Posted on4:49 pm - Jul 18, 2014


slightly off topic on the point above re Italian’s view of Germany: I watched the 7-1 Semi n a Piazza in Amalfi and was astounded by the support that Germany had from the locals to beat Brazil.

wouldnt have happened in George Square in 1990 when our neighbours played a WC Semi

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ThomTheThimPosted on5:12 pm - Jul 18, 2014


StevieBC,

I don’t think W.Germany were liquidated.
They just expanded their catchment area and changed the company name.

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RyanGoslingPosted on5:14 pm - Jul 18, 2014


StevieBC – legally speaking West Germany, or the Federal Republic of Germany, is the state which has won all four World Cups. German unification, or reunification, was accomplished by the dissolution of the German Democratic Republic, or East Germany, which was then absorbed into West Germany which was previously and remains the Federal Republic of Germany, i.e. the same country. It would have been more interesting with regards to trophies if “East Germany” had won any and if these would have been claimed by the unified state. Probably. Not sure how any past trophies were treated in the merger which created Inverness Caledonian Thistle? Presumably the history would include trophies won by both prior clubs, noting that they were separate entities at the time but could therefore be rightly claimed by ICT?

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StevieBCPosted on5:26 pm - Jul 18, 2014


TTT / RG, thanks for that: I think you are both saying the same thing – sort of. 🙄

…and I learned something new today about Germany.

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ThomTheThimPosted on5:32 pm - Jul 18, 2014


StevieBC says:
July 18, 2014 at 5:26 pm
0 0 Rate This

TTT / RG, thanks for that: I think you are both saying the same thing – sort of.

…and I learned something new today about Germany.

******
…except that ICT were an amalgamation and a new club was formed.
Therefore, I would contend that any honours gained by the individual clubs would have remained in the annals of the history of each club and not transferred, TUPEd or bought by the new club.

Could be wrong, of course.

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MartinPosted on6:22 pm - Jul 18, 2014


With the Commonwealth games in Glasgow about to kick off I for one am enjoying the sense of excitement and anticipation around the city.

It’s going to be great!

Some of the biggest and best sports stars will be there to compete and Glasgow as expected will put on a show to remember.

The east end of Glasgow has been completely transformed as part of a lasting legacy. New energy efficient housing has been built over the last few years on a scale not seen anywhere else in Europe in a comparable timeframe.

There is much to admire and enjoy, and a great deal to be hopeful about.

The east end of Glasgow has in recent times the most lamentable set of statistics on life expectancy, general health, and educational outcomes to be found, not only in the UK but across Europe.

It would be wrong to imagine that a sporting event could correct these ills, but in terms of investment in the future of the city the games are the fun part, the real work continues or has in terms of housing been completed.

It’s never difficult to find a curmudgeon, and in these times of trouble for Rangers football fans, improvements to the east end of Glasgow have found sharp focus on the new paving stones around Celtic Park.

I really can’t explain this other than to say that the important point is being missed.

Some as I read it imagine that the city council is simply engaged in an exercise in improving the facilities at Celtic Park.

There are far more important issues to think about and a great deal of energy and thought has been brought to bear from elected council members.

It could never be otherwise.

Whatever the difficulties of the particular parts of Glasgow that city councillors were elected to deal with, the east end was always going to take precedence if you had your ‘do the right thing’ hat on.

It’s the area where the city was failing.

Most painfully failing in terms of the prospects of young people.

There is still work to be done and one would hope that the Commonwealth games provide an impetus and a degree of enthusiasm.

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Cluster OnePosted on6:24 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Who would march on an empty stadium?
If the numbers tomorrow are less than the postcard march. What next?
If it is more, will this be seen as a protest gathering pase? And if it is less (Let’s hope it does not rain)
WILL THIS BE A VICTORY FOR THE DYSFUNCTIONAL BOARD?

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RyanGoslingPosted on6:40 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Martin,

The regeneration in the east end, particularly in the last few weeks when it has accelerated astonishingly, has been brilliant. The last couple of weeks around where I live have seen all the old pub frontages being repainted and made to look semi decent, shop fronts cleaned up, rubbish removed everywhere, trees and hedges trimmed back, road lines painted and all kinds of other improvements. It has been remarkable, and what it has really brought home to me has been that these have been the kinds of things the council should have been doing for years but haven’t! But never mind that, they’ve done a great job so far even before the games have started and I’m very impressed. This coming to an area where a few years ago, during the coldest winter in years, didn’t see a grain of grit put down on the pavements, is fantastic.

Anyone saying this has been done for the benefit of Celtic is talking gibberish in my view, the benefits to the whole east end have been brilliant. Yes, the area around Celtic park has benefited as well, but I think the needs of the many in this case overcome any perceived sense of bias or, more accurately perhaps, jealousy. I’d love to see the same thing done around Ibrox, games or no games, because that is another very deprived area crying out for investment. Hopefully it will be under the investment recently outlined for Glasgow.

I couldn’t care less about the games personally because almost all of the events bore me, and my general disdain for the general public means I’m not looking forward to the crowds outside my door! Wasn’t bothered about the Olympics either which everyone seemed to go nuts about. At least there was football and tennis in that. Anyway. I do hope the games go off brilliantly, do Glasgow proud and particularly shine a positive light on the deprived east end. Bring it on.

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bhoyantPosted on7:54 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Ryan & Martin, there is a good exhibition on at the Lighthouse in Mitchell Lane in Glasgow about the legacy of the Commonwealth Games. Interesting to find out how the people of Glasgow are going to gain from the Games. Go have a look if you have a spare hour.

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Cluster OnePosted on8:05 pm - Jul 18, 2014


RyanGosling says:

July 18, 2014 at 6:40 pm
The regeneration in the east end, particularly in the last few weeks when it has accelerated astonishingly, has been brilliant. The last couple of weeks around where I live have seen all the old pub frontages being repainted and made to look semi decent,

The old pubs i use to frequent. But don’t tell anyone 🙂

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erniePosted on8:13 pm - Jul 18, 2014


The games? Well, we can choose to sit in our wee world and dismiss any and all activities that we don’t personally get immersed in but the Olympics, the CG and even the more specialised big events such as the World Cup, Euros, Opens etc have so much going for them in our otherwise work/earn/save/retire and die existence that it is no wonder and just as well that they captivate so many people and societies. What’s that got to do with TSFM? One of the most obnoxious aspects of the whole Rangers/Sevco saga is the evidence that there is extreme tribalism in what is supposed to be a sporting activity. This goes for us observers as well as the cornered bears (can’t think of an alternative collective noun) although they are presenting a more extreme example than most at the moment. Crazy really, how did it get this bad? (Don’t really need an answer, just being devil’s advocate.) The fact that fitba and the aforementioned events are 100% professional makes it even worse; it’s not as if they are remotely like tribes. Fitba in particular is completely mercenary and I for one have no problem with that. I don’t care who Miller (Willie that is) supported as a boy or if Strachan was a Hibs fan or whatever. Patriotism and loyalty is fine, I partake unashamedly, but we’ve got to a position where fans of one team want the rest to fail; fitba fans want the CG to flop; diehard fans of some teams don’t want their players picked for Scotland because “they don’t give a phuck” etc etc. It would be good if we could be loyal fans and recognise the interdependence of the game. We need a strong competitive league and a decent International team to keep the standard at a level worth paying to watch. I hope all our teams do well in Europe and that the league is as competitive as possible.
As for the games. I’m off to Glasgow next week as a volunteer, my Aberdonian pride will live with the Clydesider monicker! After all I’ve met people from all over Scotland, UK and indeed the world at the training and we’ve all signed up because we expect Glasgow to do it well and have a blast. One of my friends has a daughter who is competing, she doesn’t expect to feature in the medals but the last 4 years has all been about the next fortnight; something else the detractors ignore, the games are primarily about the competitors, the rest is just financing the jamboree.

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bobferrisPosted on8:55 pm - Jul 18, 2014


andygraham.66 says
Slightly off topic on the point above re Italian’s view of Germany: I watched the 7-1 Semi n a Piazza in Amalfi and was astounded by the support that Germany had from the locals to beat Brazil.

wouldnt have happened in George Square in 1990 when our neighbours played a WC Semi
——————–

A strange comparison, Italy doesn’t even border Germany. They have a buffer zone, their own unique language plus of course they are an independent country and have their own tv coverage of the World Cup. They don’t have to suffer a Herr Tyldsley or a Herr Motson or listen to former Germany players giving their expert views. And on the other side, I’m sure the Germans are quite glad they’ve never had to listen to Giovanni Hill or Adriano Chiles!

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twopandaPosted on9:03 pm - Jul 18, 2014


My feedback is many Bears see little point in competing at top level if they`ll always and forever come second best handicapped by `companies` `profits`.

Is that so?
If, this could be a general feeling amongst many Bears

– Could this be a test for the `Old Firm`?

All I`ll do is explore odds on CWs `Co` winning the SPL at first time of asking.
But I don`t believe that`ll happen until two seasons passed [at least].

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justshateredPosted on10:04 pm - Jul 18, 2014


StevieBC says:
July 18, 2014 at 4:41 pm

Interesting point about East and West Germany but, although I may be wrong, I don’t think West Germany ever accepted the division of their nation. The claimed to be the one nation but the wall and an occupying force prevented unification for over forty years.

West Germany definitely won three World Cups but then gained land to the East, no joke intended, and so the country expanded.
Granted the country changed its name however, if Ceylon had ever won a footballing title, would Sri Lanka be able to claim it?

Possibly a more appropriate question would be;
“Who won the 1976 European Championships?
Was it the Czech Republic or Slovakia?
Can they both claim it as they were joined at the time?”

Meanwhile “East is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.” – Groucho Marx
I’ve always loved that quote.
What dear old Groucho would have made of this debacle would have me in stitches for years.

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RyanGoslingPosted on10:15 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Justshatered,

The original “West German” constitution provided for the absorption of “East Germany” as it was always assumed that at some point the country would be unified once the allies had sorted out their differences. However, “West Germany” did not change their name following unification, it was and remaind the Federal Republic of Germany, having eventually absorbed the states of the German Democratic Republic.

Your question regarding Slovakia and the Czech Republic however is fascinating, particularly in light of what has gone on in Scotland recently. I’d imagine that since the history in that region is so clear it’s probably accepted that neither Slovakia or Czech Republic have ever won any trophies, but before they were separated they did win the Euros. I could be wrong, I don’t know any Czechs or Slovaks. It’s also possible that the Czechoslovakia team was dominated by either Czechs or Slovaks in which case the minority side might not even want to claim the history! Would be very interesting to hear the actual perceptions if anyone can shed any further light.

According to Wikipedia the Slovak FA was founded in 1938 but then disbanded after the war on unification with the Czech Republic, and then reformed following independence. So how they would regard the trophies is anyone’s guess.

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justshateredPosted on10:36 pm - Jul 18, 2014


RyanGosling says:
July 18, 2014 at 10:15 pm

Of course you are correct regarding the name.
East and West were media names to shorten two rather extensive titles.

So it is quite clear that the Federal Republic of Germany has won four World Cups as it was officially never actually called West Germany.
You could never really imagine David Coleman, John Motson or Brian Moore screaming “What a great goal for the Federal Republic of Germany”.
It just doesn’t roll off the tongue.

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RyanGoslingPosted on10:40 pm - Jul 18, 2014


Haha no it doesn’t really. Plus it’s easy to get the actual names mixed up whereas East and West are much more catchy. Can see why they stuck!

Then again, can’t imagine John Motson screaming the words “great goal for…Germany” no matter which version of Germany he was talking about!

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