Three Shakes … and a Twist

Guest Post by James Forrest
Those who like to read the techno-thrillers of Tom Clancy will remember well the scene in The Sum of all Fears, when the nuclear bomb explodes in Denver, outside the stadium where the Super Bowl is being played. Clancy handles the moment in two very distinct chapters. The second is a vivid and frightening examination of the explosion’s terrible effects as they are felt, firstly in Denver and then experienced around the world.

Before that, he devotes an entire chapter to the mechanics of the explosion itself. Chapters like this are either what attract readers to Clancy in the first place or turn them off entirely. It is technical, it is complex, and the layman who reads it and fully understands it is indeed a massive geek. Of all the times he has loaded the reader with technical detail, this is probably when he risked most in terms of keeping you interested in the story. Yet it works. The chapter is not long, but nor is it short. And the events in it span not seconds but fractions of a second

It was in that chapter I first learned the term “shake”, so named for the old aphorism “a shake of a lamb’s tail”. A “shake” is a term used in nuclear physics. It represents ten nanoseconds. To grasp fully the size of that, consider that there are a billion nanoseconds in a second. The chemical process involved in a nuclear detonation involves a number of “shakes”, with a chain reaction usually completed in 50.

Clancy’s decision to devote an entire chapter of the book to a few nanoseconds came back to me over and over again during the weeks and months of the Rangers crisis. It became clear to me that, drawn out though the events following administration were, what we were seeing was not the effect of the explosion but the explosion itself. Those months were our nanoseconds. Every day, every revelation, every moment we thought was a separate event, was merely a peek inside the bomb case, at the chemical process of a chain reaction.

I would say the chain reaction was completed on the day HMRC announced they were refusing the CVA proposal. That was the detonation. It’s only now we’re witnessing the explosion, and its effects, and in my view we are still a long way from the end of that process. We have had the initial double flash thermal pulse and we’ve seen some EMP effects, but the real damage is still to come. The shock wave and the fireball have yet to spread, and their cumulative effects could yet annihilate Ibrox and extend as far as Hampden.

Am I making claims of “financial Armageddon”? No, I’m not. I never believed the collapse of Rangers would devastate Scottish football. I thought then, and now, that it was scaremongering nonsense to even suggest it. It didn’t matter to me whether the authorities were spreading those stories because of a deep-seated love of the Ibrox club, or because they had bonuses at stake, or out of their own internal, personal weaknesses. Those stories were inconsistent, based on worst case scenarios which were never likely to materialise, and insulting. The notion that the game in this country amounts to no more than one or two teams is offensive.

I love football. I always have. I’m a Celtic supporter, but my interests in the game extend far beyond my own club. At its best, football is a tremendous unifier of people, from those wonderful stories about Christmas Day in the trenches of World War I to the matches organised every year between Palestinian and Israeli children. The game has the potential for tremendous good. I am proud that my own club’s supporters have honoured the dead of Hillsborough and Ibrox. I am proud they unfurled a banner to the Benfica player Miklos Feher, and invaded Seville and showed that city how to party. I am proud of every moment when the supporters of a club applauded an injured player, or staged a silence to honour an official or competitor at another team. Although there are some who would use this sport in a divisive way, who would hijack it for their own ends, I believe this game can still be an inspiration, and find the best in all of us.

I think what happened during this summer, as the fans of every club in the land made their voices heard, was one of the greatest moments in Scottish football’s recent history. I believe it will have an impact far beyond one season. I think it was special.

My concern, as I’ve said, is that the appalling effects of the detonation at Ibrox are still to be fully realised. I am worried about the impact they could yet have on all of us.

Let me be quite specific about the two things that worry me most. They are to do with the decision to grant Sevco/Rangers a license to play in the Scottish Football League this year.

First, I believe the license was granted without sufficient guarantees being given by Charles Green and others that they would respect the decisions taken by the independent judiciary panel of the SPL in relation to EBTs, and secondly, I am concerned that not enough is known about Green and his financial backers, or plans for Rangers, for the authorities to be satisfied that the club is in good financial health. I don’t believe for one second anyone can allay my fears in these two areas. It is obvious to all that due diligence has not been done, and the entire situation at Rangers/Sevco is still shrouded in doubt, and that anything may yet happen.

The independent panel investigating dual contracts is going to have to make the most momentous decision in the history of the game in the UK. I do not believe what Rangers are accused of has any precedent. We are talking about a decade or more in which the results of every single match might be in doubt. Every single game. The rules were not written to envision such an appalling breach of faith. It would seem almost inevitable that stripping of titles will be the smallest of Charles Green and Ally McCoist’s concerns if this verdict goes against them.

Frankly, I don’t see an alternative to suspending Rangers membership of football in this country for at least two years, with points deductions and monetary fines to follow when the suspension period is done. This is not harsh; in fact it falls far short of the maximum penalty, which is expulsion from the game altogether, and as it is the authorities are going to have to do a damned good job of setting out the reasons why that ultimate sanction is not applied. It will not be enough to say it would damage the game in Scotland to wipe the club away. To allow a decade of malfeasance to pass without that ultimate sanction would create the perception that Rangers is above the law, and I cannot think of anything that would do the game more harm than for any club to be considered too big, or too important, to be subject to the regulations.

With their money on the table, I don’t see any way Charles Green and his cohorts will accept the judgement of the independent panel if it has an impact on their plans to recoup their investments. With the way he’s rallied the Rangers fans behind him recently, by essentially talking about a conspiracy against them, I don’t see how he convinces them to accept sanctions, even if he personally was inclined to do so. He has painted himself into a corner where now, if he wants his money at all, he has to fight, and keep on fighting. Without the written guarantee that the club would accept whatever the panel decides, without recourse to the law, I will be shocked if this matter doesn’t end up in the courts somewhere down the line, because I don’t think for one second he signed up to that particular demand.

I think the SFA backed down on this, the most fundamental matter of them all.

Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.

To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.

At an early stage in the Rangers crisis, a couple of people told me they thought the club would not play football for at least a year. I told them of all the possible scenarios that was the most unlikely, because I honestly could see no way back for them once they had gone. There is no precedent I am aware of, anywhere, for a football club taking a “year out” only to return. Certainly, in the context of the Scottish game I didn’t see how it could be done without creating one almighty shambles, or by bending the rules until the elastic snapped.

Yet I’ve since become convinced that it was the correct course of action. The club calling itself Rangers FC is still in a state of flux. The issues still surrounding it are enormous and potentially devastating. There are any number of ways in which the entire edifice could utterly collapse. The liquidators and HMRC could yet challenge the takeover, or the coming share issue. Craig Whyte may yet emerge and take a claim to the courts. The share issue itself could be an utter failure, leaving the club unable to meet annual running costs. All of this, even without the vast effects of the EBT case, which has the potential to wash the whole club away.

Had Rangers been out of the game for a year, these issues could have been properly explored, dealt with and put behind them, and the game as whole.

Of course, it’s just possible that the worst is over. It’s possible that this particular nuclear detonation, like the one is The Sum of All Fears, is an enormous “fizzle”, that the appalling destruction unleashed will not be on the thermonuclear level which could obliterate our hopes of a fresh start, of forward motion for the whole game. It might be that everything at Ibrox is hunky-dory, that this, all I’ve written, is the product of a febrile imagination, on the same level as the financial Armageddon nonsense we spent the summer hearing about.

It may well be, but only if the people who’ve been right all along have suddenly gotten it wrong. The evidence all points to something big, and bad, coming this way.

The smart folks will be hunkering down in their shelters for a while yet.

James is a co-editor of the Famous Tartan Army Magazine, latest issue out 17th October (digital, and free), featuring women’s football

http://en.calameo.com/read/001382993b7dff7feed1b

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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

2,174 thoughts on “Three Shakes … and a Twist


  1. And why oh why do Scottish Journalists keep writing things like “Just when it seemed the Club could be moving on” (in this case Martin Hannan in the Dog Whistler article). Do these people really believe this saga is even close to an end?


  2. torrejohnbhoy says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:14

    Why do these people come away with rubbish like “administration is not on Hearts’ agenda”.

    If they lose their appeal and if they are unable to pay the bill then HMRC will move to wind the business up. They have already done it with Hearts about four times in the last year or so. If that happens administration is really the only option, it would be the only way to prevent the winding up.


  3. angus1983 says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 09:45

    john clarke says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 00:39

    —————————————————–—————————————————————————-

    Remember what happened to Cicero though….he was a wonderful orator but vain, vainglorious and ultimately fell because he backed the wrong member of the triumvate rather than out of high principle…..of all the combatants in that period I would rather associate our efforts with Virgil, who told the truth regardless of personal gain or an audience…:-)

    Virgilites?


  4. Frank Forrest: So going by that Souness only took 3 YEARS to sign a Catholic despite him “vowing to smash” the “Taboo” of the no Catholics signing policy?
    Nothing to do with outside demands from the likes of UEFA and the disgust shown by the rest of the World then.


  5. Frank Forrest says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:19

    These days, Butcher is a patron of anti-sectarianism charity Nil By Mouth and he wishes, in retrospect, he had the courage to pull on a Celtic shirt while at Ibrox.

    ==========================

    Put one on now then, Terry.

    Have you got the courage to do that.


  6. Listening to radio scotland before today’s big fourth tier league game.

    Doddsy,Derek Ferguson and Chico spouting usual cobblers

    With their lack of oratory skills its unbelievable the BBC give them a gig


  7. ollielogie says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:26

    Remember what happened to Cicero though …
    ——

    Right enough – I don’t much fancy getting my head and hands nailed up on the steps of Hampden while some chick pokes her hairpin through my tongue.


  8. Madbhoy: I doubt very much that Whyte has any intention of turning up at Ibrox! And I think it is astonishing utter stupidity for Mcoist to comment on it being “ill advised”.


  9. Sevco players have a display for “Show Racism The Red Card”, WHILST their support sing about people “Going home”. Only in Scottish Football and not a peep from the commentators. Utterly disgusting.


  10. Update –
    Fat Lady in Makeup – due on stage midweek.
    Rumour that a second gig has been lined up for the Fat Lady has been scotched by the SFA.
    :


  11. ordinaryfan says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:45

    Madbhoy: I doubt very much that Whyte has any intention of turning up at Ibrox! And I think it is astonishing utter stupidity for Mcoist to comment on it being “ill advised”.

    =================================

    He was playing to the horde, no more and no less. It is all about keeping them onside now, no matter what they have to do to achieve that.


  12. ——
    ALLY McCOIST has warned Craig Whyte never to come back to Ibrox – for his own safety.

    The Rangers boss was dismayed to hear the discredited former owner announce last week that he wanted to go back to the stadium one day.

    But McCoist knows the strength of feeling against the man whose chaotic reign plunged the club into administration by not passing on staff’s PAYE contributions to the tax authorities.

    So he has urged Whyte to stay away and stop trying to justify his actions because it only reopens old wounds at a time when the newco is trying to move on.

    McCoist said: “At best it would be ill-advised for Craig Whyte to come back to Ibrox.”

    ——

    Right. So what Algae actually said was that last sentence. The rest is entirely irresponsible journalistic speculation, as far as I can make out.

    Algae is not quoted as saying anything about “(CW) his own safety”, being “dismayed” or any battle-lines phrases like “re-opening old wounds”. If he had, you can bet it would be in quote marks. He also does not “warn” CW in any way. He speaks of him in the third person.

    Personally, I think the MSM takes responsibility for this piece of anti-CW rabble-rousing. Algae, much as it pains me to say it, has had words effectively put into his mouth here. Another example of how rags like the Daily Ranger should take their share of responsibility.

    Clear out these sports desks and let some newly qualified, young journalists in. You know, the ones that won’t be “steeped in tradition” etc.


  13. ordinaryfan says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:49

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    Rate This

    Sevco players have a display for “Show Racism The Red Card”, WHILST their support sing about people “Going home”. Only in Scottish Football and not a peep from the commentators. Utterly disgusting.

    ===========================
    They really do beggar belief sometimes.


  14. ordinaryfan says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:45

    No argument, the point I was trying to make (a point Angus better clarified) is that the direct quote is not anything we would not have said ourselves. The main issue is that this piece was a specific orchestrated attack on CW that needed backup quotes from someone like McCoist whereas a true unbiased media piece would have focussed on how the fans feel about previous owners and villains in this panto, not just CW. The real question is who requested this piece as I don’t think it was McCoist.


  15. briggsbhoy says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 09:32

    Sloan was (and still is) strictly small-time. Got his break on Border Television – a two-minute slot per week on their news programme. Ever since then he’s been Billy big shot. Very creepy Guy.

    Frank Forrest says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:19

    Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:32

    Gary Ralston authored The Gallant Pioneers: Rangers 1872. A lamb-lover of the first water.

    “In truth, it cost more to research than it will ever take in royalties, but the Gallant Pioneers was never about cash.
    Forgive the arrogance, but this was a book to stand the test of time, not a get rich quick scheme destined to end up in the 50 pence bin at Bargain Books, hacked out in a couple of months then hacked down in price like World Cup souvenirs two months after the final has been played.
    The Gallant Pioneers took three years to research and write, each character painstakingly studied before words were finally committed to the page. Rangers fans deserved nothing less, but ego also dictated the past be raked and raked again.”
    Amazon review:
    Review: on Amazon:
    i’m the author’s little sister, Laura, and i can’t stress enough how proud i am of Gary’s book! It’s a true labour of love, which leaps out at you from every page. Even if you are not a Rangers fan, which i am not, i urge you to read this book. It’s a history of the club, of course, but it’s so much more than that. It’s a look at the history of Glasgow and the back stories of some fascinating individuals. It’s a long overdue book and every person i know who’s read it has said only good things!
    Gary has worked so hard on this, and, believe me when i say this is not my sisterly bias, he deserves all the praise he has received for The Gallant Pioneers. Roll on the next book, big bro! (And while you’re at it, can you write my thesis, too? :-))

    It is of course Butcher’s wife that’s the catholic. He has, subsequent to that piece, come out with some very uncomplimentary things about the Rangers support as a result of his experiences.


  16. Woke up very early this morning and couldn’t get back to sleep again. As so often happens my mind drifted to RFC/Sevco and this time onto this share issue plus the leaking of this Heads of Terms. I then started to wonder just how the original investors were going to make their pile and came up with the following.

    My figures and percentages are all just mine, though I think reasonable, but I doubt it makes much difference if I’m out by the odd million or two nor if my percentages are inaccurate as it’s really more about the model/plan than the actual financial outcome.

    For my model I’ve built in the following:
    There’s 3 companies involved – Sevco FC, Sevcon 1 and Sevcon 2, all under a holding company Sevconem’all. The original investment of £5.5m was a loan, Sevco FC are being paid £10m for Ibrox etc with an additional loan of £7m, £5m of which is to be withheld as security for first 3 years rent. The share issue is a success and the £20m represents 49% of shares (perhaps non-voting, who knows?), leaving the original investors, who are Sevcon 1, with 51%. For his sterling work in ‘saving’ Sevco FC Chuckie gets £5m.

    At a date immediately after the share issue audited accounts are produced and it’s announced that the company, Sevco FC, are buying back all the shares of the original investors at a cost of 51% of the Net Asset Value of Sevco FC, leaving the company/club in the sole hands of the supporters! Everybody is delighted with this news 🙂 .
    As it’s in Sevcon 1’s interest, the Playing Squad is valued at what is probably double the true value of £6m (on a good day).

    My calculations of who gets what are as follows:

    Sevco FC Balance Sheet

    Residual ST Money………. £5m Loan Now Due…………….£5.5m
    Share Issue Proceeds….. £20m Loan From Sevcon 2……£7m
    From Sale of Ibrox…………£10m
    Loan From Sevcon 2……..£ 7m
    Squad Value…………………£12m

    Total Assets………………….£54m Total Liabilities……………£12.5m

    Net Asset Value…………….£41.5m

    From this we can now see that Green, true to his word, is delivering a football team, free from debt (in Greenspeak) to the ownership of the supporters. Well done Chuckie, you’re well worth your £5m. But, of course, there’s a few issues to deal with first! Chuckie is due his well earned £5m, the original investors are due 51% of the net asset value, and Sevco FC have still to put up £5m security on their rent, so, when we factor in these figures, we see what the RFC fans will be left owning.

    Chuckie’s millions…………..£5m
    Sevcon 1’s share buyout.£21m
    Rental Security Deposit…..£5m

    NAV of Sevco FC now
    owned by supporters…….£10.5m
    This is made up of £11m cash at bank but the loan of £5.5m is due for repayment immediately, leaving £5.5m and there is also a loan of £7m outstanding. The playing squad, valued at £12m, is actually only worth £6m. So, the team playing at Ibrox, in blue, and calling themselves Rangers, have half a season to go through with £5.5m plus pay at turnstyles income to survive on. They also have the monthly interest on a £7m loan to find that they didn’t have before. Oh dear…

    So who makes what?

    Sevco FC are now The Rangers FC with a playing squad, £5.5m in the bank but with a loan to repay from end of year 3. They have no fixed assets but probably have to maintain, and eventually repair, Ibrox, as the lease will undoubtedly make this the case.

    Sevcon 1 now have a balance of £26.5m made up of the share buyout money and repayment of their loan to Sevco FC, from which the original investors will be repaid, or maybe shafted too, for the benefit of whoever is at the controls of this scam.

    Sevcon 2 will have a very desirable property portfolio, debt of £12m, of which £2m plus interest on a loan of £7m is to be received from The Rangers FC.

    Sevconem’all will have it all.

    Should a more realistic value be placed on the playing squad then the outcome would be better for TRFC investors, but should the share issue raise less than the £20m then, not only is the pot reduced, but the original investors share of the Net Asset Value would increase ie, raise only £10m and it becomes 75.5%. I’ve also left out of my model any intangible assets such as goodwill and branding, and, of course, The Rangers good name! If I had included it, it would have made things even worse for the supporters.

    I repeat, this is purely my take on a possible scenario, and even if it’s on the cards, the figures will vary greatly. It might be more correct to include Green’s £5m in the balance sheet liabilities, thus reducing the Net Asset value and reducing the buyout payment. The ‘buyout’ might not be possible, or legal, I just don’t know for sure and hope some of our more knowledgeable posters might put me right on this, which would mean I’ve wasted a lot of time, and sleep 🙁 but it’s been fun 🙂

    One thing thinking about this brought me to was, what happens, if this is in someway realistic and on the cards, when Chuckie goes away and leaves it all to the new investors? Who will take charge? Will there be a board in place before he runs off? Or will there be a power vacuum to be filled, with the likes of Dingwall and his accolytes shouting louder, and, already well practiced, threatening all who stand in their way? Now that would be what I call Armagedon!


  17. ordinaryfan says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:49
    Sevco players have a display for “Show Racism The Red Card”, WHILST their support sing about people “Going home”. Only in Scottish Football and not a peep from the commentators. Utterly disgusting.
    ——————————————————————-
    I don’t know about the SPL though I assume they’re the same, but in the SFL this last week the thing has (unlike England) been described as “Show Racism and SECTARIANISN The Red Card”.

    No, they didn’t shout the middle bit, just only way I’ve got of emphasising it. I wonder how that particular bit will go down? Probably they’re all convinced everyone else is sectarian against them because we don’t want to hear their Ulster history songs and the rest of the baggage.

    BTW I expect the erudite folk I’ve noticed on here (often far more so than I) are aware the King Billy was in alliance with the Pope and James was on the side of the Pope’s enemy? (One of these things like us being on the same side as Stalin during WWII – though better add the comparison is only loose in case it sets off a religious argument).

    Never quite had the nerve to bring that up with the really sore bears of my acquaintance.


  18. Madbhoy: Yes. But we are not in a position where an angry mob known for threats and violence hang on our every word and we have not been publicly shamed by families living in fear for previous comments only a day or 2 beforehand. Sally is and Sally has.


  19. Can this be the big hoodoo busting weekend?
    Killie win at Celtic for the first time since 1955 and The Rangers might win away in the league for the first time since the big bang. Does waiting 13.7 billion years for your first away league victory get you another world record (and maybe an extra star on their shirts)?

    To misquote something I heard earlier on Off the Ball “Even Third Lanark have won away in the league more recently than The Rangers”


  20. madbhoy24941 says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 13:06

    The real question is who requested this piece as I don’t think it was McCoist.
    ——

    Journo phones up Algae “So, Ally, what do you think about CW saying he’d like to go back to Ibrox one day?” “Well, at best I think it’d be ill-advised.”

    Cue column-inch filling by journo looking for sensational headline along the lines of “Rangers boss Ally McCoist advises former owner Craig Whyte to stay away from Ibrox” with his by-line on it (hello, Euan McLean).

    I’m not making excuses for Algae here, but anyone who’s had what they said “expanded” by a journalist will know how they operate.


  21. angus1983 says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:44
    ‘….while some chick pokes her hairpin through my tongue…’

    Or even some Chick!


  22. And still the racist chanting continues Live on Sky Sports and goes unmentioned. It should never go unchallenged, especially on a weekend SPECIFICALLY DEDICATED to kicking racism out of OUR SPORT. Les Ferdinand believes it s bad in England, if he was to cross the border he would be sick to his stomach.

    PLEASE CAN FOOTBALLERS AND MANAGERS GROW A PAIR AND LEAVE THE FIELD OF PLAY WHEN IT HAPPENS!!


  23. angus1983 says:
    Saturday, October 27, 2012 at 14:17
    5 2 Rate This
    Did hear them going on about Rudi Skacel asking for the number 51 shirt at United, though. On account of the Cup Final score last year.

    Doesn’t strike me as a particularly smart move on his part.

    What do our resident Arabs and Jambos think?

    ———————————————————————————————————–

    An unnecessary distraction from the job in hand….for United,, Hearts, Hibs and Skacel!


  24. Looks like SFA doing their utmost again to “big up” the newco!

    Rangers FC Official ‏@RFC_Official
    Rangers’ 140 years of history is to be celebrated in a new exhibition at the @Hampden_Museum, starting next week: http://bit.ly/QI2yxL


  25. paulsatim says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:30

    =======================

    Well it is a museum and they did have 140 years of history. Though whether anyone would want to remember and even celebrate a lot of it is questionable.

    Do you think there will be much mention of the decades of institutional sectarianism.


  26. Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:22
    1 0 i
    Rate This

    torrejohnbhoy says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 12:14

    Why do these people come away with rubbish like “administration is not on Hearts’ agenda”.

    If they lose their appeal and if they are unable to pay the bill then HMRC will move to wind the business up. They have already done it with Hearts about four times in the last year or so. If that happens administration is really the only option, it would be the only way to prevent the winding up.

    ____________________________________________________________________

    I can only think you don’t quite understand the meaning of the phrase ‘not on the agenda’, the agenda being a list of topics to be discussed at such things as board meetings. It doesn’t mean ‘it will not happen’ or ‘it is not going to happen’ it means that ‘we, the Hearts board, and/or Romanov, are not discussing it as a possiblility’. If you think back a few months, Craig Whyte announced he was taking Rangers into administratiion, before HMRC forced his hand. It had, therefore, clearly been ‘on his/Rangers’ agenda’, as he had been planning it. You’re right, though, should Hearts lose the appeal, and HMRC seek liquidation, then administration might well be ‘on the agenda’, but only if Romanov considers not paying up, unlike the previous times when HMRC have threatened the club with liquidation. Then, and only then, would it be ‘on the agenda’, because the board would actually be discussing it.


  27. 10 days ago we have headlines like ths:
    “UK govermentt urges UEFA to sanction Serbia over racism”.

    W………………………………………T…………………………………….F ………………….!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  28. TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 13:16

    It is of course Butcher’s wife that’s the catholic. He has, subsequent to that piece, come out with some very uncomplimentary things about the Rangers support as a result of his experiences.

    ——

    Not that I want a discussion about the minutiae of slightly different religious ritual, but aren’t the pair of them Anglican? That’s the impression i got from that story.

    Meanwhile, a 140-year retrospective is a good plan, I think. Might as well give them a send-off after all that time. a proper funeral will give fans of the dead club a focal point for mourning and may help them accept it.

    It should be headed, in great big letters, “Rangers FC 1872 – 2012”.


  29. ” There’ll Be No Tartan Army In Brazil ” from the sevconians on TV.


  30. allyjambo says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:36

    =============================

    If you genuinely believe that Hearts have not been discussing the very real possibility of administration, when HMRC have petitioned for their winding up around 4 times, and that they are not discussing it now then fair enough.

    Hearts have very deep financial problems just now. They have a tax bill that they can ill afford on top of thos problems and adding to them. If they lose the appeal and Mr Romanov is unwilling to spend even more money he will never get back then they will really struggle, and HMRC will not be slow in acting. Not with what has happened in the past.

    If they are not discussing all possibilities then they really should be. That has to include administration and what might happen.


  31. Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:33
    4 0 Rate This
    ===========

    AJ, wont be holding my breath!!
    ———————————————————————

    angus1983 says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:39
    ========================
    Seem to recall a newspaper article after Butcher left, with him admitting he had been a big Simple Minds fan and had all their albums, but was influenced after signing on, and dumped his SM collection. He went onto say that it was his wife who pointed out to him how petty and bitter he had become and that he regretted it.


  32. paulsatim says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:51

    No shortage of England internationals miming playing the flute or “conducting” the sash back in the day.


  33. Forgive me, it was “Billy Boys” Roberts “conducted”.

    It’s all history now I suppose


  34. Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 15:07
    ==================

    Part of the “history” bought, no doubt!


  35. Ordinary fan
    Only problem here is the UK gov dont speak for the Scottish Goverment,we all remember the comments from the cup game at hampden a few years ago when the Sevco fans where at their worst and where applauded for this by gov ministers,what chance has Scotland got when these are the people in the very position to help wipe this out ,unfortunately the SNP have not just shelved the work that had been carried out to rid us off this scourge the seem to have actively encouraged this behaviour,if Mr Salmond does not step in to do something now ,come election time this single issue will be enough to sink his ship.


  36. Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:49
    0 0 i Rate This

    allyjambo says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 14:36

    =============================

    If you genuinely believe that Hearts have not been discussing the very real possibility of administration, when HMRC have petitioned for their winding up around 4 times, and that they are not discussing it now then fair enough.

    Hearts have very deep financial problems just now. They have a tax bill that they can ill afford on top of thos problems and adding to them. If they lose the appeal and Mr Romanov is unwilling to spend even more money he will never get back then they will really struggle, and HMRC will not be slow in acting. Not with what has happened in the past.

    If they are not discussing all possibilities then they really should be. That has to include administration and what might happen.
    _________________________________________________________

    The point you were making is that it was wrong for Hearts to say it was ‘not on the agenda’ as though that meant they were saying it was not a possibility. They might well be discussing it privately, but not in the boardroom, where it would be minuted. I doubt, either, if any of the board are in a position to know just how real the possibility is as Romanov will be the only one who knows his own intentions, and regardless of what the board say or think, it’s all down to him.

    A point that has been made on here before, and often on Jamboskickback, is that it is not in Romanov’s best interest to voluntarily go into administration as the vast majority of Hearts’ debt is owed to him or rather his bank, so he would only be getting the same percentage of the debt owed to him as everyone else ie HMRC. His business plan at the moment is clearly to reduce the debt, by cutbacks, as low as possible, and to hope for a reasonable bid at some point in the future. Another point that has been made on here is that, while HMRC were taking Hearts to the Court of Session to petition for a winding up order, on a number of occassions, while not doing the same to Rangers was because HMRC knew Hearts would pay-up under the pressure but Rangers wouldn’t/couldn’t. It might now be the case that HMRC, realising Hearts can’t pay that sum up front, might give Hearts time should they be found liable.

    Remember too, Romanov/Ukio Bankas are far and away Hearts biggest creditors and would control any administration, and could, if they so choose, agree a CVA of coppers in the pound which would stiff HMRC, along with sundry smaller creditors. Shamefull but I doubt Romanov would care. He’d have a debt free football club to sell off and then settle the outstanding amount with the bank. With almost £1.75m of debt to HMRC plus the sundry other debt cleared he just might get a better outcome than otherwise and so HMRC might not want to force liquidation/administration prefering to come to an arrangement.

    Until Romanov considers every other avenue has been tried, or until he decides he WANTS an administration, it will not be on his, or Hearts, agenda.

    Note, I’m still no saying it won’t happen!


  37. If Hearts “lose their appeal” on the tax bill, they should take it to the FTT. That should give them another 18 months’ grace.


  38. The other aspect of the Hearts case would be that, if a CVA was agreed (Romanov as chief creditor would control this), then they would have to overcome a 10 point deduction but NO relegation as they would exit administration as the same company/club. Debt free and still in the SPL.


  39. smartie1947 says:

    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 15:40

    If Hearts “lose their appeal” on the tax bill, they should take it to the FTT. That should give them another 18 months’ grace.
    —————————————–
    As I understand it Hearts are appealing the tax assessment! That is a FTT. Someone correct me if I’m wrong of course!


  40. This intimidation stuff must be working. I see on Sky that ‘rangers’ defeated Clyde wearing the colours of ‘rangers’ club and not a peep from all those businesses and people that ‘rangers’ shafted.
    I read somewhere once that the end of the World would be neigh when people were unable to recognise the difference between right and wrong. I think it near time to don the life-jacket! I ask could this happen to any other business which was liquidated, to be allowed to operate as normal even though this club defrauded millions and millions of pounds from legitimate business., Whether it is overt or covert, Intimation is definitely at play here. Why would people who are owed thousands of pounds sit back and witness a liquidated club ,which shafted them continue to operate as if nothing happen.


  41. Show Racism The Red Card at a Sevco away game and the biggest recruiting ground for the BNP at home games,makes me sick.


  42. Meanwhile in Twitterland

    Richard Keys‏@tSKeysandGray

    Reminder – Charles Green is with us tomorrow – and very special gust after 12 – Tony Adams
    ————————————–
    Wonder if Green will be as full of hot air as the special “Gust”.


  43. Sevco players have a display for “Show Racism The Red Card”, WHILST their support sing about people “Going home”. Only in Scottish Football and not a peep from the commentators. Utterly disgusting.
    ——————————————————————-

    I heard them singing the “Super Rangers” song with the sectarian add on but I believe the song you heard was the “four men had a dream” song, which also goes to the tune of Sloop John B. A frequent mistake on these forums. I also doubt Ian Crocker has the first clue about any of their repertoire.


  44. AJ

    You are a decent spud, and I really value your opinion. However I think you are defending your board based on sophistry mate. That’s up to you, it’s your club but I honestly don’t accept that “administration is not on the agenda”. Perhaps in a literal sense if one were to read the agenda for a board meeting the word “administration” would not appear there, but in a real sense it has to be. If only in a colloquial interpretation of the phrase.

    It’s not a phrase I would use, but I have heard it many times, and it is more often taken to mean something being considered or spoken about, rather than in the formal sense you are using.


  45. I’ve contacted Show Racism The Red Card to inform them that one set of fans in the UK have decided to make a mockery of their campaign by singing racist songs WHILST the players AND officials held up “Show Racism The Red Card” placards. I would hate one group of supporters to be allowed to discredit this campaign without condemnation. Considering the discontent shown by those who feel let down by the organisation I would expect a quick and concise public statement condemning the Club involved.


  46. bobferris: I heard the “Famine Song” loud and clear at least twice that I am certain of. And it looks like some in media did also.

    Brian McNally@McNallyMirror
    The irony of Ally McCoist wearing a Show Racism The Red Card badge as away fans belt out the illegal & racist Famine Song lost on Rangers.
    28 Oct 12


  47. People are talking about Mr Romanov and his bank controlling any administration, that is absolutely correct.

    However if they then agree a CVA for pennies in the pound (bearing in mind it will be the administrator who comes up with the figure not the owner or board) then they are accepting that loss for themselves.

    So if Mr Romanv is owed £10m (I have no idea) and agree 1p in the pound he gets £100k. He is also writing the debt off as an asset of the bank. Reducing it’s assets by the best part of £10m

    With regard HMRC coming up with some sort of “deal” I just don’t see any basis for believing that. Hearts have mucked them about for quite some time now, and are hardly what one would consider a compliant taxpayer. A “deal” is very unlikely, not helped by the fact that, like Whyte, the amounts in question relate primarily to unpaid PAYE (which I believe may be an oxymoron).

    Remember reviews, deals etc are all discussed prior to an FTT not after it.


  48. previouslyknownassnowdog says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 16:07
    12 0 Rate This
    Show Racism The Red Card at a Sevco away game and the biggest recruiting ground for the BNP at home games,makes me sick.
    ———-

    There is a BNP aura over some of the antics of certain Rangers’ supporters, quite a lot of the modern generation in fact, but is there factual evidence for Ibrox being a fertile recruiting ground? I tried to read up on this and got the impression that the BNP only turn up because they think that Govan is the happy hunting ground. But do they actually get many converts? Or are the loyal quite happy with their own brand of peculiarly un-Scottish Britishness?


  49. Danish Pastry says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 17:11
    0 0 Rate This
    previouslyknownassnowdog says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 16:07
    12 0 Rate This
    Show Racism The Red Card at a Sevco away game and the biggest recruiting ground for the BNP at home games,makes me sick.
    ———-

    There is a BNP aura over some of the antics of certain Rangers’ supporters, quite a lot of the modern generation in fact, but is there factual evidence for Ibrox being a fertile recruiting ground? I tried to read up on this and got the impression that the BNP only turn up because they think that Govan is the happy hunting ground. But do they actually get many converts? Or are the loyal quite happy with their own brand of peculiarly un-Scottish Britishness?

    ————————————————————————————————–

    I have not been to since the 90’s, back then the ground was ringed with BNP paper sellers, hardly surprising the links to ultra right wing politics has always been luminous. Remember the Marco Negri interview, where he outlines his discomfort with the political bent of the club.

    When pressed, I have yet to hear what this ‘more than a club’ statement or ‘Struthian’ really means, other than an unequivocal assertion of their own manifest superiority. The internet is awash with images of neo-nazis and KKK supporters posing with rangers tops…….the club has fostered a persona as appealing as a wet toilet seat in the Louden Tavern.


  50. arabest1 says:

    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 17:25.
    The internet is awash with images of neo-nazis and KKK supporters posing with rangers tops…….the club has fostered a persona as appealing as a wet toilet seat in the Louden Tavern
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Didn`t know they had toilets in the Louden Tavern


  51. We Are The Peepil ‏@WATPPodcast
    @alextomo We are recording today. Shall we save you a seat?

    alex thomson ‏@alextomo
    @WATPPodcast do – as I’ve repeatedly said I’m happy to talk to the overwhelming majority of fine R fans.

    We Are The Peepil ‏@WATPPodcast
    @alextomo Skype at around 10pm UK time? Will be recording around then.
    ——

    Any of that popcorn left?


  52. arabest1 says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 17:25
    2 0 Rate This
    Danish Pastry says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 17:11
    0 0 Rate This
    previouslyknownassnowdog says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 16:07
    12 0 Rate This
    Show Racism The Red Card at a Sevco away game and the biggest recruiting ground for the BNP at home games,makes me sick.
    ———-

    There is a BNP aura over some of the antics of certain Rangers’ supporters, quite a lot of the modern generation in fact, but is there factual evidence for Ibrox being a fertile recruiting ground? I tried to read up on this and got the impression that the BNP only turn up because they think that Govan is the happy hunting ground. But do they actually get many converts? Or are the loyal quite happy with their own brand of peculiarly un-Scottish Britishness?

    ————————————————————————————————–

    I have not been to since the 90′s, back then the ground was ringed with BNP paper sellers, hardly surprising the links to ultra right wing politics has always been luminous. Remember the Marco Negri interview, where he outlines his discomfort with the political bent of the club.

    When pressed, I have yet to hear what this ‘more than a club’ statement or ‘Struthian’ really means, other than an unequivocal assertion of their own manifest superiority. The internet is awash with images of neo-nazis and KKK supporters posing with rangers tops…….the club has fostered a persona as appealing as a wet toilet seat in the Louden Tavern.
    ————-

    Thanks arabest,
    I’m just trying to be objective. I have read some pretty harsh criticsm of the BNP from Rangers fans who dismss the party out of hand. But I’m far removed from it all and am only asking. If it is true – that the BNP is recruiting among Rangers’ fans – it would not surprise me. But if false, and portrayed as current fact here, then that could undermine other assertions about sectarianism, which though not false, would be dismissed as ‘unreliable’ because other falsehoods are promoted on this site.

    The main point, as others have stated, is that the admirable display today by Clyde and Rangers players ignored the problem of sectarianism which is probably a far more serious issue north of the border.


  53. Over on RM there’s a bit of a discussion about the songs being sung today at Clyde. Apparently, the banned song was not sung, rather the one mentioned above with the same tune. Some Mirror journo was daft enough to tweet with the wrong info.

    Prompting this comment:

    “Its a pity we dont have someone with top legal background and a good bit of spare time as there are a number of actionable comments and tweets being made on a daily basis.”

    I wonder whether they’re referring to themselves, or just having another irony bypass? A quick look through the rest of that thread alone reveals that either is a possibility.

    Imagine if you did a search and replace on RM, replacing their favourite F word with “black”. They’d all be off to the clink first thing in the morning.


  54. From RM’s own house rules:

    ——
    Sectarianism and discrimination
    Sectarianism and discrimination is not tolerated on this forum. Discrimination can take the form of the use of specific words or phrases or can be in the form of a general attitude towards an individual or group of people. Discrimination can be on the basis of race, sex, disability, religion, sexual orientation or political persuasion.
    ——


  55. Remember last weekend, James Traynor denied having seen or being aware that the FTTT result had been made available to the parties?

    Mr Traynor was very reasonably precise about the length of the FTT c200 – 300 pages. If my memory is correct it was said here that he had mentioned that the decision was in the region of 300 pages elsewhere.

    Given the average page length of FTTT decisions for January 2012 is 11.6 pages (97 cases published in that month. I did not have the time to calculate the average page length of decisions for the 2012 thus far) but 12 pages seems a reasonable average page length.

    @BartinMain @rangerstaxcase @mdkster On the same basis I won’t post about decision till publication, but pages 246-252 of it are devastating

    It appears that the page length of the FTTT decision (MIH v HMRC) will come in at about 300 pages.

    What is the probability of Mr Traynor being able to guess that the decision is 300 pages long against an average of c12 pages? Not that high I would guess.

    Is it reasonable then to assume that Mr Traynor had sight of the FTTT decision at some stage last weekend, or had been briefed on it?


  56. Agrajag says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 16:52
    1 1 i
    Rate This

    AJ

    You are a decent spud, and I really value your opinion. However I think you are defending your board based on sophistry mate. That’s up to you, it’s your club but I honestly don’t accept that “administration is not on the agenda”. Perhaps in a literal sense if one were to read the agenda for a board meeting the word “administration” would not appear there, but in a real sense it has to be. If only in a colloquial interpretation of the phrase.

    It’s not a phrase I would use, but I have heard it many times, and it is more often taken to mean something being considered or spoken about, rather than in the formal sense you are using.

    _________________________________________________________

    I think in most cases when a board member, interviewed in his position as a board member, states something is not on the agenda, he is stating that it is not being discussed at boardroom level, he is not, therefore, talking in a colloquial sense and is fully justified in his statement. Your original post made out that the statement was ‘rubbish’ with, I presume, no inside knowledge, so you too have perhaps been indulging somewhat in sophistry. My efforts to explain why I think it might not actually be in Hearts plans is based on the fact that Vlad has never followed the accepted path and has a history of surprising us all, while there is also a history of HMRC threatening Hearts (under Romanov) with petitions to wind up the company which has always ended with Vlad making a last minute settlement. There is also the extremely unusual situation where the owner of the club basically owes the vast majority of the debt to himself, which, on the face of it, would put him off looking to take advantage of administration.

    I have presented some historical reasons that could well point to administration not (yet) being on the agenda at Hearts; can you provide similar to justify your statement that for a Hearts spokesman to say ‘administration is not on the agenda’ is, in fact, rubbish?

    I am not trying to defend Hearts, Romanov, or the board, they’ve made a complete mess of things, merely pointing out that, at this moment, if Hearts say administration is not on the agenda, then no one is in a position to dispute that, let alone to say it is rubbish.


  57. Have a look at any fans forum and while partisan you will notice they are all devoid of the religious references that dominate each and every rangers forum. All clubs attract unsavoury individuals and we have all felt embarrassed by actions of a small minority of our support from time to time, alcohol loosens inhibitions and the emotions of football can affect the most reasonable person, and im sure we have all succumed to a degree in our lives and vowed to realign our behaviour to a more appropriate level in the future. The real lesson is knowing when you have overstepped the mark, and seeing the error of your actions. The vast majority of supporters go to games and hope to see their team win but by and large we see the other support as decent guys, no different from ourselves.

    The problem with the rangers support is it has been entwined as part of the unholy trinity that devides a large section of our country. The OO seeks to stamp out the teachings of rome, freemasons have secret actions to influence positions of power that have been hijacked to suit the sectarian agenda, and rfc have consistently attracted large numbers of members of these organisations, the result is a club almost entirely pro union, anti catholic and quasi political.

    This has been ignored for decades by football powers, police and judicial authorities and political figures, incidently the same bodies suspected of harbouring such beliefs.

    There never has nor never will be a clean rangers as too many people want to protect this mindset and see each and every piece of criticism as part of the other side of their coin, though to my mind, no such coin exists and there is no group of people seeking to single out and keep down members of the protestant faith.

    Most rfc fans i know are members of one or both of these divisive organisations, or at least watch the parades that seperate our streets, mostly these guys are hard working, reasonable individuals in life but almost all have a desire to support the putridness of sectarian divide.

    I believe the problem is societal rather than sporting but the sad fact is one club has been taken over as the sporting wing of these beliefs and i see no real desire to change this. Scotland is seeking to step out from the shadows of England in a progressive attempt to grow up as a nation while clinging on to the baggage of centuries old wounds. There has to be a deep rooted inspection of our culture and hard questions to address before we attempt to move forwards.

    I appreciate this may not make it through moderation or survive for long if it does, but i hope to have written it well enough to highlight the hardening of the rangers support in their beliefs is being matched by a determination to see an end to such division on our sporting and political playing fields. I have no idea how it will all pan out, i hope for the best while dreading the worst. I apologise for the controversial nature of this post, but football in this country can never prosper if we dont address this fundamental question.


  58. Long Time Lurker says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 18:09

    Is it reasonable then to assume that Mr Traynor had sight of the FTTT decision at some stage last weekend, or had been briefed on it?
    ——

    Or was at least told by someone how long it was.

    Still, just have to wait and see. Tweet reproduced above could be a work of fiction too, designed to see how quickly such info gets around the bampots. 😉


  59. rab says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 18:18

    Excellent post Rab. Sums it up perfectly. I wish sincerely that we can rid ourselves of this poison.


  60. The thing that annoys me apart form the religious bigoty is the constant references to kiddy fiddling and peados etc – we all know the example they are talking about – but no one has the high moral ground on any of this

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kincora_Boys'_Home

    Its one thing having banter but this is just sick and depraved on their parts to constantly make assertions on people – especially Jock Stein who only knew one thing – how to be a football manager. Makes me sick to see how a great man who should have been knighted – especially when you see the ones recently that have been knighted (Goodwin, Murray, Saville etc)….

    Disgrace to the memory of the best manager Scotland ever had! And ever will have!


  61. Well said Rab and DP, but I suppose this is moving towards an area of cultural critique that makes the mods a little twitchy, whilst I understand that (I think) the connections between religion, politics and football are in the end the reason for its significance.


  62. Traynor is Murray’s greatest defender. He will definately be aware before most people of the FTT findings. Moonbeams will make sure of that. Jabba still has a job to do for his Master.


  63. So the question is: where will Minty be when the FTT result is made public ?

    Will he try and ‘brass-neck’ it in Glasgow/Edinburgh to declare to his MSM poodles that the FTT result is wrong, blah, blah, blah… ?

    Or will he be having a quiet, civilised wine-tasting session at his French vineyard… ? 🙄


  64. I agree with Rab (today, at 18.18):
    I recall a TV interview with the late Jimmy Reid. Broadcast late on a Sunday night , he spoke eruditely on many topics. In particular, he spoke of his disgust at the poison that had blighted football in Glasgow. He thought that the purveyors of this evil were a generation who were (literally) dying off. His withering “Good riddance” was class.

    I’m with you, Rab. Jimmy would be disappointed. If McCoist has the wit(!) he is in the place that can turn things around. We know he won’t.


  65. @BartinMain @rangerstaxcase @mdkster On the same basis I won’t post about decision till publication, but pages 246-252 of it are devastating

    Interesting debate over on KDS as to what devastating could mean. One poster notes that it could mean that MIH have won the appeal, which is an interesting possibility. Another poster notes that devastating is more likely evidence that MIH/RFC had attempted to deceive the FTTT.

    I will be very much interested in the language that Mr Traynor uses this week in regards to the EBT/FTTT. If he uses terms such as technicality, technicalities etc. and makes any reference to complex tax rules, legal at the time etc. then I think that we are seeing the opening gambit in the defence of (S)DM.

    Speaking of language, apologies for the poor grammar in my earlier post.


  66. It’s all very well us banging on here but what about a little bit of support for the likes of Alex Thomson and Mark Daly et al. They are basically lone voices in the MSM wilderness and come in for a fair (sic) bit of vitriol on their twitter/blogs I do at times think instead of constantly rehashing the same old arguments on here we might be better employed, at times, in giving these courageous gentlemen some tangible support where it matters. I am including myself in the above admonishment.


  67. StevieBC says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 19:23

    So the question is: where will Minty be when the FTT result is made public ?

    Hopefully he will be having a look on here to gauge the public reaction 🙂

    My guess is he will tough it out from Edinburgh. He may not want the perception in the media of him walking away.


  68. The Moravcik67 quote on the FTT(T) verdict was first posted on kerrydalestreet.co.uk a week ago.
    His predictions were confirmed by rangerstaxcase and Paul McConville, who both seem fairly confident Rangers have largely lost out.
    Paul in particular seems to have seen the document and reveals that the criticism of RFC PLC towards the end of the verdict is “devastating”.
    Store up on the popcorn, folks. It appears this week will be fascinating.


  69. I’ve just listened back to You Call from last night. Jabba appears to be taking the line that the SFA/SPL should have questioned the EBT inclusion in RFC(IA/IL) accounts each year. In my bampot heid this says that if he knows the result then this is the deflection angle he is going to take in his defence of Murray.


  70. rab says:
    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 18:18
    ——

    A well written piece, rab.

    Being somewhat removed from the SW of Scotland, I’ve never really experienced the reilgious divide. I’ve mentioned before that we used to happily sing about effing either the pope or the queen depending which half of the OF was in town, in the interests simply of a wind-up of opposing fans. 🙂

    Religion means nothing to me personally, although I’m hugely interested in it. I sat and watched a 2 hour programme on the History Channel just now about the Vatican, and I visited the place in the summer. I have my own views on Catholicism through the ages, but I do find it all hugely interesting.

    Having been ostensibly brought up in the Church of Scotland (i.e. Sunday School picnics, really), I have nothing at all against Catholics and don’t see why I possibly should have. I have visited cathedrals while Mass was going on, in e.g. Paris, Chartres, Nurnberg, Vienna, Budapest and St Peter’s itself, usually by accident. I find the ritual cuturally interesting, if a little spooky with all the smoke and chanting and costumes, but I have no particular positive or negative feeling about it. I once listened to the organist play a Metallica song while tuning up in a cathedral in Brussels mid-afternoon. That was fun.

    I have nothing against Protestants either, although the ministers can be very, very boring. And I wish they wouldn’t go to my loon’s school and try to indoctrinate the Primary Ones.

    Anyway, I’m waffling again. My point is that much of Scotland is far, far removed from the religion thing that’s tagged onto Celtic and Rangers. Firstly don’t have the background to understand it, and secondly we have no idea why the Divide is perpetuated. It’s all about the same deity, isn’t it?

    Hope I’ve not offended anyone. Completely off-topic too, so won’t complain if TSFM deletes.

    P.S. ordinaryfan (18:12) – not moderated yet? 😉


  71. angus1983 says:

    Sunday, October 28, 2012 at 20:00

    Anyway, I’m waffling again. My point is that much of Scotland is far, far removed from the religion thing that’s tagged onto Celtic and Rangers. Firstly don’t have the background to understand it, and secondly we have no idea why the Divide is perpetuated. It’s all about the same deity, isn’t it?
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    angus
    I suspect if you were to ask any practising members of C.of.S or RC faiths they would be the first to attest that they have more in common with each other than with either TRFC or CSC

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