In the aftermath of the recent election and whilst those of us who voted one way are still hoping that our way continues to count, the horse trading has begun. No matter your politics, the fact that a party wholly representing one part of the United Kingdom is suddenly having such a massive influence, coupled with a lack of detail in the public domain over their negotiations, causes people some nervousness; because of the nature of the DUP, for some they claim it terrifies them.
Can we imagine if football was run that way? Can we imagine if it wasn’t?
Having people who have one focus deliberating and influencing your life has always been an issue at the core of the United Kingdom. Proud Scots do not like the power of the English, some English have begun to resent the growing independence of the Scots, the Welsh have turned out to have their own independence and as for the Irish; the Trouble has always never been far behind.
The recognised method of dealing with these issues has now become to allow, where possible, organisations within the domain of the domicile to grow on their own. For some it sows the seeds of an increasing independence as the locals realise they can do it for themselves. It also does, though ensure the organisation is close to its own people and is truly representative of them.
In Scotland, and throughout the last election, the big two – Conservative and Labour parties – have suffered under the accusations of being a “branch office” of their London centric big sister. It has led to people making choices based on the assumption that, at times, neither of the leaders up here have autonomy. When there are policies that will be unpopular in Scotland, they say, the high heid yins in Edinburgh have no choice but to toe the party line.
We do not like that thought.
Nor should we.
I suggested that football has a similar issue. And so. It does…
The views and opinions of the Scottish fans who last Saturday threw up their hands in joy and held their heads in despair all within 90 seconds or so suffer from that lack of representation. As deals are done in secret and “announcements” made over innovations and changes they are collectively silent through the funded organisation established to represent them; at best that organ is muted.
Never has it been more important for the Scottish football fan to feel the importance of their view being heard. Never has it been more important as Project Brave is being undertaken, chairmen are being fined £3,000 for having a bet, we look as though we are going to miss out on another World Cup, expansion of our cup competitions is growing apace, play offs and promotions have delivered their verdicts and handed their budgets to managers who bemoaned last year it was hard, that one of our two giant clubs seems unable to keep itself out of the court room whilst supplying the accused, the defence lawyer, the pantomime villain and a circus or at least two premiership clubs appear to be on the verge of administration.
Supporters Direct – Undemocratic?
The time has come to ensure that the voice of the footballing nation does not come from around the Isles but around the corner. Whilst the work of Supporters Direct has brought a great deal of support and aid to a number of clubs and supporters groups, the fans need something that is much more than a branch office of a bigger organisation.
In the recent past, SD have seemingly been forced to be more visible but let us not be fooled, if you are an ordinary fan, SD have no place for you. You cannot join, you cannot vote, and you cannot influence; so there is not much point. Building a democratic and fair vocal chord for Scottish football fans needs commitment from the bottom up to engage, enlist and enrich the chorus and chanting of disapproval or support for Scottish football.
That’s why I am in the SFSA – isn’t it time for the Scottish Government to take the bull, grasp the thistle and make the clear choice of removing money going all the way to London and giving it to a fans based organisation that represents them here in Scotland?
We think so… don’t you?
Join the SFSA today! It’s free
Events and outcomes concerning smsm approach to issues concerning Ibrox club (IL).
Administration will not happen. Result administration happened.
Liquidation will not happen club to big, tax man will do a deal Alex Salmond will sort out with HMRC. Result liquidation happened.
Put newco in top league or Armageddon. Result Newco into Div 3
Craig Whyte villain in takeover of club. Result in court not guilty.
Now the smsm say no appetite for the stripping of titles. Result to be confirmed.
If the SFA (let’s say helped rangers get a licence) to play in europe in 2012 and get money to keep going,and Ally and his team fecked it up.And (let’s say helped TRFC get a licence) to play in europe in 2017 and get money to keep going,And pedro and his team fecked it up.Is regan banging his fist on his desk shouting for feck sake i put my ass on the line to help both clubs and they both made a pigs ear of it.Just how stupid does regan feel now?
DARKBEFOREDAWNJULY 9, 2017 at 15:55
I don’t believe the SFA should necessarily consult with the FA. They are separate Associations.
The case of Rangers registering players and knowingly withholding key information needs to settled in Scotland and quickly.
If any of the teams you mentioned deliberately broke the FA rules in the same manner as Rangers and retained their titles i think that it would encourage others to ignore the rules.
What about them ? What have they to do with the topic of title stripping for deliberate, breach of the SFA registration rules.
See above.
We are not discussing stripping titles for financial irregularities, but deliberate cheating by knowingly registering false information.
Their deliberate cheating was indeed different.
Your posts are big on questions. How about sharing some thoughts and opinions ?
Imagine a world where all the club representatives who sit on the SFA and the SPFL hung their heads in shame at the shambles that is Scottish football governance? Struggling? Me too!.
Think of those chances to get an MBE, OBE, Knighthood (perish the thought!). These ‘suits’ are a disgrace to the game.
Another site today argued a strong case that stripping the titles is not enough. I now agree. Astericks are not enough, it’s like saying those contests were void and invalid. They must be redistributed.
Furthermore the SFA & SPFL must be disbanded and made to start again. Rules set up without the ‘get out clauses’ at the end of their statements like, ‘unless we think otherwise’ type of thing.
The thing is, if Rangers results were reversed to 3-0 results for playing illegal players, clubs all over Scotland would have benefited. Clubs would have played in Europe, Clubs would not have been relegated.
Regan would be on the Dole, Doncaster would be a messenger boy for level 5.
Having just spent my weekend in Glasgow thoroughly enjoying the company and unintelligible ramblings of my 12-month-old grandson, I’ve just returned home to read the even more infantile gibberish produced by Club 1872 in its recent statement.
This masterpiece of modern literature is truly alarming, reaching level eleven on the standard delusionometer. The irony of this organisation claiming that someone else is guilty of an hysterical, inaccurate and agenda-driven reaction is priceless.
As Roddybhoy rightly enquired on here earlier today, since when did the guilty party get to dictate their own punishment? Such is the arrogance of those connected to the Ibrox club, they genuinely believe they should be immune from prosecution and repercussions.
Imagine if a convicted mass murderer was to decide on his own fate, perhaps assisted by his family, friends, associates and supporters.
“Yes, your honour, we conclude that half an hour in Barlinnie to stock up on narcotics and mobile phones would be appropriate, followed by six months solitary confinement on a beach on a secluded Caribbean island.”
The notion that the guilty party should have any say in their own punishment is both novel and utterly preposterous. And despite the embarrassing verbal gymnastics of Club 1872 and Dave King before them, Rangers Football Club were unquestionably found guilty of serious offences! That matter of guilt is another subject that the guilty party and its associates quite rightly don’t have a say in, in the interests of impartiality and integrity.
Club 1872’s statement is a toxic mix of agenda-fuelled fantasy, inaccuracies, downright lies and sheer and annoying arrogance of WATP proportions. Just who the hell do these people think they are with their thinly veiled threats and intimidation?
HighlanderJuly 9, 2017 at 23:43
‘… Just who the hell do these people think they are with their thinly veiled threats and intimidation?’
_____________
They are the very same people represented by no less a figure than the Chairman of RIFC, who in his annual report 2016 wrote this up-beat sentence:
‘Relationships which were all but destroyed with national and local politicians and the football authorities are being re-instated and reinforced’
Allowing Supporters Voice/ Club 1872/ Mr Blair to come out with the kind of mindless rant that they came out with is hardly conducive to the re-instatement and reinforcement of ‘all but destroyed’ relationships.
Was there ever such a singularly ‘Ratner’-kind of Board in terms of PR? Shooting themselves in both feet with almost every ‘statement’ they make, whether directly or indirectly.
Delusional and dysfunctional, and, at heart, consciously and desperately living a lie.
In my opinion.
JIMBOJULY 9, 2017 at 23:19
The thing is, if Rangers results were reversed to 3-0 results for playing illegal players, clubs all over Scotland would have benefited. Clubs would have played in Europe, Clubs would not have been relegated.
Regan would be on the Dole, Doncaster would be a messenger boy for level 5.
—————————————————————————————————-
Technically Jimbo, Rangers(I.L.) should have been relegated year on year, and by the time of their last game, they would be 13 leagues lower……..Hmmm
Corrupt officialJuly 10, 2017 at 00:26
‘…Rangers(I.L.) should have been relegated year on year, ..’
_______________
And, of course, those would actually have been ‘relegations’as having been bottom of the league!
We have to acknowledge the fact that the real Rangers of 1872 vintage were never ever relegated!
They did not live long enough after their 140th year for that to be a possibility, but were euthanised for personal gain by SDM, even if it was the wee assistant would-be asset stripper who was the one who actually pulled the plug on the life-support machine.
Any review should be in 2 distinct parts, IMO;
– does Scottish football want a ‘Rangers’ in the SPFL?
then
– what action should be taken for the ‘EBT years’?
And this might help the bears to focus on reality.
JOHN CLARKJULY 10, 2017 at 01:10
I was being a wee bit hypothetical there John, but to be fair. If they SFA had any savvy about them, one relegation would have did the trick, and nipped it in the bud.
If their systems and checks, (as a fit for purpose organisation would have) had hit them in year one……Who knows what the situation would be now.
It’s hard to imagine it could have panned out worse. It might have prevented them kicking the chair away.???
John Clark
I read your link to Charlies case you directed me to very interesting. Would never have believed you can make a horse you lead to water drink it. Gullible,Gullible,Gullible
DarkbeforedawnJuly 9, 2017 at 15:55
The Rangers Tax Case was seen as a test study into EBTs in football, and many media outlets think this is the tip of the iceberg, particularly in England. Surely the SFA should consult with their cross border counterparts on what actions may be taken? Arsenal have already settled an EBT case for their title winning year, so if we are applying the logic Rangers should have titles stripped because they were using illegal means of paying their players, surely Arsenals league titled should be taken away? And what if a number of other big fish in England are found guilty?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All English clubs involved either already have, or very soon will, reach settlements with HMRC. Nobody is going to court, because they aren’t stupid enough or arrogant enough to assume that they can win in the face of the facts, just because of who they are.
It was open to Rangers to correct matters by being open and honest with HMRC, and paying up, but firstly they didn’t see why they should, and secondly, they had no way of paying.
The fact that Rangers evaded more tax than they could subsequently repay just highlights the industrial scale of what went on at that club.
If the English clubs involved took it a step further, as Rangers did, and concealed EBT payments from the FA, or had undisclosed side letters as part of players’ contracts, then of course the FA should take action.
The footballing offence is not tax evasion as such, but false reporting to the SFA of payments to players, and failure to lodge correct player contract details with the SFA.
What the SC judgement blows away totally is the “no sporting advantage” reasoning of LNS. Other clubs could not save on PAYE by using the EBT payment method. That is now an established fact.
I’m pretty sure that industrial scale tax evasion could, in fact probably should, also lead to footballing charges along the lines of “bringing the game into disrepute”, but it will be snowing hard in hell the day that the SFA take that line with any club playing out of Ibrox.
jimboJuly 9, 2017 at 22:52
Imagine a world where all the club representatives who sit on the SFA and the SPFL hung their heads in shame at the shambles that is Scottish football governance? Struggling? Me too!.Think of those chances to get an MBE, OBE, Knighthood (perish the thought!). These ‘suits’ are a disgrace to the game.Another site today argued a strong case that stripping the titles is not enough. I now agree. Astericks are not enough, it’s like saying those contests were void and invalid. They must be redistributed.Furthermore the SFA & SPFL must be disbanded and made to start again. Rules set up without the ‘get out clauses’ at the end of their statements like, ‘unless we think otherwise’ type of thing.
jimboJuly 9, 2017 at 23:19
The thing is, if Rangers results were reversed to 3-0 results for playing illegal players, clubs all over Scotland would have benefited. Clubs would have played in Europe, Clubs would not have been relegated. Regan would be on the Dole, Doncaster would be a messenger boy for level 5.
_________________________
These two posts seem to contradict each other, Jimbo. In the first you are advocating redistribution of titles, but in the second suggesting this 3-0 result ‘reversal’ will benefit all clubs.
Can you explain how clubs, other than those who would be handed titles would benefit now, especially those clubs that were relegated, but, in theory, wouldn’t have been with this 3-0 defeat idea. To my (uncertain) knowledge, there has never been a case where results have been reversed after the start of the following season.
While it could be argued that clubs finishing in second place deserve to have the titles assigned to them, if we want a situation where every club that was cheated is treated equally fairly. How on earth can you reverse, or put right, relegation?
I’m with AJ on redistribution of honours. In the case of the league it is possible to re-calculate results and positions, but it is possible to find a ‘true facts’ assessment only in the first year of any punishable wrongdoing, and the relegated club that year can’t feature in the following ‘true facts’ assessment, thus rendering it obsolete at the end of that first season. In other words, an unnavigable Sargasso. Likewise any knockout competition becomes unnavigable after the first round in which the defaulting club plays. Can’t award a cup to a losing finalist when every club on the way to the final was cheated.
Far better to set aside awards. Leave them blank. This also has the advantage of serving as a reminder for posterity that cheating is most definitely discouraged. Re-awarding honours could airbrush the cheating out of history after a time.
BP/AJ. Agreed. The immediate treatment is complicated enough for an original symptom that was as obvious as it was blatant.
SteveBC. Your vote 1 is a non-starter and would only muddy the waters even further. I don’t particularly want an ebullient ridiculously entitled and over-confdent “Rangers” either. But I can’t stop them if they have sufficient fairly won votes to remain/continue/start afresh/exist (delete as you feel applicable).
I’m not having a go at you personally but I can’t help but feel this issue actually clouded the last re-entry/entry etc etc. There was always going to be A Rangers to follow post the liquidation. Whether it was THE Rangers was always going to be a matter of conjecture with the legal eagles saying can’t be, the metaphysical emotional types claiming it was and the Doncasters of this world claiming black was white regardless. But the obvious scare tactics employed about “wantin us deid” did nobody any favours.
Just on a side note on this btw, does anyone have the actual wording of vote 1 of the three votes taken to allow accession to the SFL in 2012. My recollection was only that it conferred the right to call the new sevco Scotland entity ‘Rangers.’ Everything else claimed by the both Rangers and Regan appears to be implied apart from throwaway statements to the press by our friends in officialdom.
Not surprisingly that’s the DR closing ranks with the hotline…Craig Swan has insisted we move along now away from all this nonsense regarding Rangers cheating just phone calls about everything else bar that…they also are guilty of underestimating fan power as opposed to peepil power…they will not shut is up and move us along because the rest of us Scottish football fans ( united) are so disgusted by the oldco and newco clubs behaviour that we will not move along…If the SPA or SPFL ignore us they will kill the Scottish game forever so let’s put the ball on the other foot we (the rest of us) would be better of doing the job ourselves…no moving along, we will drag the SFA and The SPFL down with us before we give into the spineless rats and that includes the spineless rags. I have in the past donated money to the SFM and would donate money again to whatever it is we have to do to achieve a fair result for every other Scottish football fan.
BIG PINKJULY 10, 2017 at 10:07 I’m with AJ on redistribution of honours. In the case of the league it is possible to re-calculate results and positions, but it is possible to find a ‘true facts’ assessment only in the first year of any punishable wrongdoing, and the relegated club that year can’t feature in the following ‘true facts’ assessment, thus rendering it obsolete at the end of that first season. In other words, an unnavigable Sargasso. Likewise any knockout competition becomes unnavigable after the first round in which the defaulting club plays. Can’t award a cup to a losing finalist when every club on the way to the final was cheated.
Far better to set aside awards. Leave them blank. This also has the advantage of serving as a reminder for posterity that cheating is most definitely discouraged. Re-awarding honours could airbrush the cheating out of history after a time
————————————————————————————————————–
BP I fully understand the asterisk option you propose.
It is the easiest one and I totally get that after the first year its complicated if we try to replicate everything.
But if I was a QOS fan who lost in a cup final I’d want a little more because each and every year the competitions started anew and genuine bona fide operations and footballers were unknowingly thwarted by the SDM Ibrox doping machine.
So I would prefer this.
1 Asterisks because these years we now know with certainty were not normal.
2 Asterisked re-awards in each and every competition.
So in each asterisked league Rangers would show as bottom club after we use the normal outcome of playing wrongly registered players and the league adjusted accordingly.
In each cup asterisked cup we’d get Winners on the record books like Queen of the South*.
Its not perfect but nothing will be perfect here and I think the team on each occasion who got closest should get the recognition they deserve.
Thats closer to how the athletics people would treat historical cheating.
Maybe some of the more clued up part-time lawyers on the blog could advise of feasibility:-
Hire a lawyer willing to work on win only fee basis in a class action –
10,000 fans x £2,000 (low estimate) spread over the cheating years is £10million suing both SFA and SPFL for breach of contract.
Most fans will be able to produce bank evidence of money paid for season tickets and cup tickets.
Might give them pause for thought when they next state no appetite for action?
I heard a very apposite phrase on Desert Island Discs from a school report “what she lacks in intelligence she makes up for in stupidity”. Aimed at a child that is cruelty. However recent statements from DCK and Club 1872 seem to fit that description completely.
I do not feel that they are yet ready for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
The refusal to admit any wrongdoing would cause me, if I were a TRCF man, to cease to be a supporter.
The worrying thing is that Club1872 is not a fringe operation reflecting the views of the demented fringe but a major shareholder, has thousands of member contributing substantial subscriptions monthly and is effectively a creature of TRFC. They might be described as the TRFC para-lunacy wing.
There can be no progress until this pustulent boil is lanced.
A lateral thought
One solution to the issue of title stripping could be this:
RFC plc now called RFC (IL) to be punished for cheating by being retrospectively expelled as a football club from the SFA with effect from the date on which the first of the two illegal tax evasion schemes was introduced
i.e from the end of season 1996 -1997
This would satisfy the vast majority of fans calling for justice
No trophies could therefore be won between 1998 -2012 by a non existent member of the SFA
TRFC or their fans could of course claim otherwise but their claims would be rejected by the SFA all the way to the CAS
Any attempt by TRFC or their fans to pursue the issue via the legal system would fail at the first hurdle since they have no legal basis to represent RFC in liquidation
Just seen a comment from JJ subsequent to his most recent article that suggests he has been made aware of an EBT received by a referee. No idea if there is any truth in it/evidence of it.
CoS and SC could have saved money and time. Here is EBT’s summed up in a way we all understand.
http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/893166352?-11344:801:0
ffs.
There is a lot ignorance out there and we can exploit it.
https://respect524.wordpress.com/2017/07/09/handwringers-reunited/
Once upon a time there were 4 bears and a nasty society ……………………….yawn
There is no just way to re-allocate titles and we are stuck with it. The league/cup/ and Euro entry systems were corrupted beyond repair. Rangers(I.L.) crimes were a sine die event…No two ways about it.
That for me is the starting point. A sine die retrospective ban on Rangers(I.L.). and the club officials responsible.
Decide what to do (if anything) later with Sevco. Possible court cases may be in the offing, and Sevco, (or significant aspects of it), may transpire to be the legal entitlement of A.N.Other. Possibly someone with a lifetime ban of ANY involvement in Scottish fitba. The 5-WA will dictate if stolen purse monies are fitba debts.
That may turn in to another merry-go-round, and too many decisions have taken place using false assumptions on legal positions already……. With Rangers (I.L.) the legals are over.
There is no-one to hear their screams, and no-one to do the actual screaming.
Sine die Rangers(I.L.) and do it now. It will cut through a lot of the crap in one fell swoop, and it is the appropriate thing to do for their offences, 2nd only to match-fixing……for more than a decade.
Lest we forget (1)
AJ/BP,
Yes you are correct. I never thought the reversals thing through. It would become impossible after the first season because of promotions & relegations. I went back and re-read etims article and he doesn’t mention 3-0 reversals merely that the runners up are awarded the prizes.
Lest we forget (2)
Stunney was the newspaper boy on RTC.
VALENTINESCLOWNJULY 10, 2017 at 12:46
The harder they (all the excuse makers) try to find a way to claim their club’s innocence, the more ridiculous they look. This time they are trying to convince themselves, and so, the world, it wasn’t cheating because the scheme saved David Murray money and not the club. A sort of, ‘for every tenner Rangers spent, Murray saved five!’
In this instance, of course, they ignore the deliberate mis-registration issue, and the stated fact, under oath, that the point was reached during the EBT years that there was not enough money available, from any source, to support the standard of players the club continued to sign, without the use of EBTs.
Celtic shareholders are quite right to protect their investment in the future and this is what this is
about for them they invest and expect returns.
SDM was confident enough in his statement to state he made payments to players he could not afford. This would have been debenture and other shareholders money as well as fans retail income, shareholders with debentures,preferences would have reaped benefits hence why they are not demanding an investigation into why their shareholding investment was used to pay wages and avoid tax by using evasive practices, ie hidden statements and letters.
If Celtic and others turn a blind eye their shareholders can take legal action as they are not getting value for investment and will hold their company responsible for ignoring known practices that have a detrimental effect to their investment. Catch 20/20 over to you Celtic and other club companies you know it is the legal action your investers demand.
Have I missed something?
Club 1872 statement says that “It is our belief that a small number of other SPFL clubs, including Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, would like to see them (SPFL Board) do so (act on behalf of Celtic).
I have not seen any statement from AFC (although I would love them to). Or DUFC. Or any other.
Have I missed something or are Club 1872 making assumptions?
JIMBOJULY 10, 2017 at 13:51
AJ/BP,
Yes you are correct. I never thought the reversals thing through. It would become impossible after the first season because of promotions & relegations. I went back and re-read etims article and he doesn’t mention 3-0 reversals merely that the runners up are awarded the prizes.
_______________
This still ignores the fact that football is not a first past the post sport, and awarding of titles to second placed clubs still leaves a scenario where some clubs will benefit from this form of justice, while others, equally cheated by RFC, will remain disadvantaged. Without repositioning every club, and thus changing the relegated club’s position, how can any club be deemed to have moved up into first place? How can one club be handed a title, while another remains relegated for all time? Or, alternatively, how can a club win the league from second place?
To create a fair and just solution the league tables would either have to remain the same, with an asterisk against Rangers and a note to explain the withdrawal of the title, or, regardless of the method used, every club in the league would be repositioned with Rangers placed firmly at the bottom. Then a method would have to be found of ‘unrelegating’ clubs and restoring their position in Scottish football to where it would have been if the devastating event of relegation (at that particular point) hadn’t taken place. I’d suggest that that would be impossible.
But something I think we should all consider is that while it will be hard enough to get a review that might eventually lead to title stripping, how much harder will it be to get one if the proposed penalty is the reasignment of the trophies?
BIG PINKJULY 10, 2017 at 10:07
I’m with AJ on redistribution of honours
=====================
I haven’t spoken to a single Celtic fan who wants the titles to be given to Celtic, but they sure as hell want the record books to show Rangers were cheating. The notion being peddled by some journalists that people know about the disgrace anyway doesn’t wash with me. The record books need amended permanently.
Today the Daily Record has the latest RFC ‘legend’ gracing its back page attacking the title stripping campaign. It is none other than Dutchman Arthur Numan and he is reading from a now very familiar script, namely that the titles were won fairly and squarely on the field and it’s just sour grapes on Celtic’s part. Despite most of the page being devoted to his article, there is no attempt by the intrepid reporter to quiz him on his own substantial EBT or to ask him if he will now do the decent thing and pay his dues to HMRC. Arthur usually participates in Rangers charity matches for a fee + expenses. I wonder if he is picking up a cheque for doing Level 5’s bidding?
What former Ibrox hero has that nice Mr Traynor lined up for tomorrow – and the day after – and the day after that?
For those who haven’t seen it.
https://stripthetitles.wordpress.com/2017/07/10/calling-scottish-supporters-groups/
Lobby your bus, pester your club, get in touch. Coherent and coordinated action takes planning.
BFBPUZZLED
JULY 10, 2017 at 12:13
The worrying thing is that Club1872 is not a fringe operation reflecting the views of the demented fringe but a major shareholder, has thousands of member contributing substantial subscriptions monthly and is effectively a creature of TRFC.
They might be described as the TRFC para-lunacy wing.
——————————————
James Don Blair is Company Secretary of TRFC (the company that runs the football club).
James Don Blair is also one of three directors of Club1872.
You may read into that what you will.
GOOSYGOOSY
JULY 10, 2017 at 12:16
A lateral thought
One solution to the issue of title stripping could be this:RFC plc now called RFC (IL) to be punished for cheating by being retrospectively expelled as a football club from the SFA with effect from the date on which the first of the two illegal tax evasion schemes was introducedi.e from the end of season 1996 -1997
This would satisfy the vast majority of fans calling for justiceNo trophies could therefore be won between 1998 -2012 by a non existent member of the SFA…
===================================
I like that idea GG.
Gives SFA / SPFL just enough wiggle room to assert they are punishing the ‘old regime’ of Rangers, and not punishing the new regime of TRFC.
And fans could be satisfied that the record books reflect the decision.
The bears will no doubt still claim “54* and counting” – but all the other fans might be able live with their delusion…and humour them / tease them relentlessly.
BILLY BOYCEJULY 10, 2017 at 15:29
” It is none other than Dutchman Arthur Numan and he is reading from a now very familiar script, namely that the titles were won fairly and squarely on the field and it’s just sour grapes on Celtic’s part.”
——————————————————————————————-
Rangers(I.L.) ….Putting on the field, what we couldn’t afford to pay for off the field since 1999
Jingso.JimsieJuly 10, 2017 at 15:40
If I was involved in setting up an independent fans organisation to monitor the management and governance of the team/club/company of my affections, I’d probably want it to be obviously independent in every respect.
I’ve never knowingly defended a lawyer, but I’m not sure what can really be made of James Blair’s involvement in the various Rangers entities. He works for Anderson Strathern and is Company Secretary to over 100 companies including those below. It could just be that getting one leads to all the others.
CLUB 1872 PROJECTS COMMUNITY INTEREST COMPANY (SC456869)
SUPPORTERS VOICE LIMITED (SC526829)
RANGERS FAMILY LIMITED (SC525938)
CLUB 1872 LIMITED (SC525940)
CLUB 1872 SHARES COMMUNITY INTEREST COMPANY (SC476150)
RANGERS FIRST LTD (08904536)
RANGERS INTERNATIONAL FOOTBALL CLUB PLC (SC437060)
THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED (SC425159)
GARRION SECURITY SERVICES LIMITED (SC433635)
RANGERS MEDIA LIMITED (SC436460)
Also acted as Company Secretary for a company owned by Alastair Johnston of the THE RANGERS INDEPENDENT FANS CONSORTIUM LIMITED (SC524748)
Think of how easy it was and still is to fool the peepul all the time after watching the link below, King has a mandate to fleece these sheep as it looks like they will never be woken up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9K_hMsrwRA
BIGBOAB1916
what could go wrong
BILLY BOYCE JULY 10, 2017 at 15:29
Today the Daily Record has the latest RFC ‘legend’ gracing its back page attacking the title stripping campaign. It is none other than Dutchman Arthur Numan and he is reading from a now very familiar script, namely that the titles were won fairly and squarely on the field and it’s just sour grapes on Celtic’s part. Despite most of the page being devoted to his article, there is no attempt by the intrepid reporter to quiz him on his own substantial EBT or to ask him if he will now do the decent thing and pay his dues to HMRC. Arthur usually participates in Rangers charity matches for a fee + expenses. I wonder if he is picking up a cheque for doing Level 5’s bidding?
=====================
Just for background info, Mr Numan was the one player who did not seek to take a loan from his EBT trust, choosing instead to seek investment income. John Clark may recall “Mr N” being mentioned at the UTTT and us being requested not to reveal his identity. I’m sure he also got a passing mention in the Whyte trial.
TONYJULY 10, 2017 at 17:31
Hopefully the perspective gives a totally wrong impression of the closeness of both these bomb making ingredients, but regardless, what level of lunacy puts public safety below ‘kulchur’ in any society?
Imagine being told you are on nightshift this week if you work in that filling station! Imagine being stupid enough to turn up!
easyJamboJuly 10, 2017 at 17:35
‘… John Clark may recall “Mr N” being mentioned at the UTTT and us being requested not to reveal his identity…’
_________
Roger,eJ.
ALLYJAMBO
no way would i turn up,pumps will probably be turned off…….i hope
easyJamboJuly 10, 2017 at 17:35‘… John Clark may recall “Mr N” being mentioned at the UTTT and us being requested not to reveal his identity…’
===================================
For those of you who were at the UTTT, were the names of every single EBT recipient available?
and this from the Rolls of court for tomorrow Tuesday 11th
LORD TYRE
STARRED MOTION
P115/17 Note: RFC 2012 Plc for orders under paragraph75 Shepherd & Wedderburn
Wright Johnston & Mackenzie LLP
JOHN CLARK JULY 10, 2017 at 18:13
and this from the Rolls of court for tomorrow Tuesday 11th LORD TYRE STARRED MOTION P115/17 Note: RFC 2012 Plc for orders under paragraph75 Shepherd & Wedderburn Wright Johnston & Mackenzie LLP
===============
That’s the BDO v D&P action re their actions as administrators.
Now that craig whyte is in the clear.he has been busy(if he is still involved with sevco 5088 ltd )
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08011390/filing-history
Did I see a post recently mentioning Wavetower ?
Or was it my imagination?
anyway
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=152536a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
This appears to have been delayed ?
“In those circumstances hearing the appeal before the criminal proceedings have been concluded would trespass upon matters at issue before the High Court of Justiciary, with the risk of prejudice to the administration of justice in those proceedings. The risk can be avoided by sisting the appeal meantime”
STEVIEBC
JULY 10, 2017 at 15:58
GOOSYGOOSY JULY 10, 2017 at 12:16 A lateral thought One solution to the issue of title stripping could be this:RFC plc now called RFC (IL) to be punished for cheating by being retrospectively expelled as a football club from the SFA with effect from the date on which the first of the two illegal tax evasion schemes was introduced i.e. from the end of season 1996 -1997 This would satisfy the vast majority of fans calling for justice No trophies could therefore be won between 1998 -2012 by a non-existent member of the SFA… ===================================
I like that idea GG.
Gives SFA / SPFL just enough wiggle room to assert they are punishing the ‘old regime’ of Rangers, and not punishing the new regime of TRFC.
And fans could be satisfied that the record books reflect the decision.
The bears will no doubt still claim “54* and counting” – but all the other fans might be able live with their delusion…and humour them / tease them relentlessly.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
SBC
Hadn`t thought about it in terms of wiggle room for the SFA/SPFL or anybody else
BUT
Now that you mention it
Since few people are advocating re-allocation of titles and trophies their real motivation is, as you imply, to see the record books amended
I for one would settle for a footnote against every winner of every title and trophy won from Aug 1997 to May 2012 along the lines of:
“Although RFC plc participated in this competition they were retrospectively expelled sine die in 2017 for operating two illegal tax avoidance schemes and defrauding Her Majesties Revenues and Customs of £52m.This retrospective expulsion took effect from 1st August 1997”
This makes it absolutely clear that this gross misdemeanour enters the football record books for the years in question. It would serve as a reference point to any fan in the future who wishes to challenge the legitimacy of TRFC claiming to have purchased 54 titles from the Administrators of RFC plc prior to them being placed in liquidation
It would also remind all genuine title and trophy winners during this 15 year period that their accomplishment was made despite facing competition from a club that were subsequently expelled in disgrace.
Or put another way
Rather than putting the emphasis on naming and shaming the titles and trophies won by cheating, it spotlights the “extra” worthiness of titles and trophies won despite cheating
GOOSYGOOSYJULY 10, 2017 at 20:01
the “extra” worthiness of titles and trophies won despite cheating
——————-
Hand someone a mike and they would come out with”the “extra” worthiness of titles and trophies won despite our cheating, don’t count as we had then taken away from us”
John ClarkJuly 10, 2017 at 18:13
and this from the Rolls of court for tomorrow Tuesday 11th LORD TYRE STARRED MOTION P115/17 Note: RFC 2012 Plc for orders under paragraph75 Shepherd & Wedderburn Wright Johnston & Mackenzie LLP
Be a lot jimmy white been spouted out tommorow
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14432150.Couple_loses___30_000_as_fraudster_dupes_law_firm/
Exactly £30,366.65 was stolen when the fraudster hacked into online correspondence between the Richards and their solicitor at the Glasgow branch of Wright, Johnston & Mackenzie (WJM), before duplicating the couple’s email to request that the firm pay the funds to a new sort code and account number. It turned out to belong to a bank account in Birmingham.
John have you ever read so much nonsense, a law firm replies to an email and transfers funds to an account without first contacting the couple to confirm this transaction, an email request and new bank account details c’mon, what type of shit are we dealing with in society.
easyJamboJuly 10, 2017 at 18:25
‘…That’s the BDO v D&P action re their actions as administrators. ‘
________
I thought it might be , and I intend to be there tomorrow.
Goosey Goosey
Ebts with side letter were not used until season 2000/2001 (De Boer and Flo in August and November 2000) . There is an argument season 1999/2000 should also be consider because Moore got entitled to a DOS ebt payment in September 1999 but there was no side letter, although DOS ebts were unlawful.
However it depends if that payment was reported to the SFA or not. If it was it suggests RFC were acting in good faith that the ebt arrangement was lawful. If they did not report it then that breaks registration rules but was intent dishonest or just a lack of understanding of registration rules that only requires a fine? (First time offence Guv.)
I’ve a comment on an alternative to voiding titles that I ran up the CQN flag pole today that Ill post next.
Goosey Goosey
as I said I ran thi sup the CQN flag pole where a few got caught up on the concept of a decent Rangers supporter but it is a Celtic blog after all. However……
“I see some support for declaring TRFC are a new club in order to satisfy justice.
I can understand the desire to take titles away based on sporting advantage unlawful ebts provided but as that will never be accepted by the nasties on the deluded but unshakeble belief those players would have signed anyway then the not the same club solution has to be an option if a review is carried out and it finds that
a) the LNS Commission was corrupted by dishonesty by concealing wtc documents from it.
b) therefore it’s findings are unreliable and are set aside.
c) payment of players by a means made unlawful through dishonest concealment of side contracts involving a third party makes any prizes won utilising ebts worthless.
d) However as those prizes won by dishonest methods have been attributed to a club whose existence ended in 2012 they cannot be removed and
e) UEFA have informed the SFA that under UEFA FFP, which Scottish club licensing must comply with, UEFA have determined The Rangers Football club are a new club as defined in Article 12 of FFP
There will be no future action against Rangers currently in liquidation and TRFC although the latter cannot lay claim to the honours of the former whose absence will be reflected in SPFL and SFA records and marketing henceforward.
I think that If The Rangers FC supporters had any sense of decency, divorcing themselves from such extensive dishonesty should be viewed as an opportunity to start anew properly and the above is an elegant solution to the problem.
I’ve since added it gives those decent supporters space to argue for a new look for a new club and frees them from a past they would do well to abandon given the danger of that painful history repeating itself.
It would not and should not be a way of avoiding an enquiry but a possible outcome from it.
Auldheid, who says they cannot be removed just because the old club ceased to exist? As you know better than most, removing titles and trophies is simply restitution, rather than punishment. It is the equivalent of taking back the stolen laptop from a burglar and returning it to its rightful owner, rather than subsequently fining him or sending him to prison.
If you mean that the rules and regulations of the game don’t allow for it, since when did the adherence to a set of rules apply to any club operating out of Ibrox?
Personally, I have a voracious appetite for seeing every single title and every single trophy won during ‘the cheating years’ being expunged from the record books, and I’ll be honest and admit that it gives me great pleasure to watch certain ‘people’, such as Club 1872, becoming apoplectic with rage at that prospect.
I am however realistic enough to know that the chances of title-stripping are slim, because it’s highly likely that our inept and corrupt football authorities inserted a ‘no title-stripping guarantee’ into the five-way agreement.
How enforceable would an agreement be if its terms allowed for one party to break the law and yet still benefit from the terms of the agreement?
DunderheidJuly 11, 2017 at 09:44
Like you, I think it would be difficult to enforce any contract if it contains promises and conditions built around law or rule breaking, or, as in this case, protecting something illegally won. What’s more, I doubt, too, that anyone would be breaking any contract law if they ignore a contract with a now deceased club or business – or, at least, ignores a part of a contract that only affects the deceased party. What’s dead can’t sue you, for a start. The arguments, and counter arguments, around TRFC’s rights to claim RFC’s titles would be more than interesting, and TRFC would have to decide whether it’s better to argue to retain the titles (and maybe lose) or to avoid a legal argument over ownership of a dead club’s titles altogether to be able to maintain the myth of continuity.
If, say, one, or both, of our football bodies decided to strip RFC of titles, any attempt by one of the other parties to the 5WA to sue would be interesting, to say the least, with damage more likely to TRFC than anyone else. Of course, with all five parties to the agreement more than likely compromised, it is unlikely that any one would readily break it, but I doubt any problems of a legal nature would emanate from breaking the ‘contract’ itself.
I think it is mutual self-interest and survival that hold the 5WA in place, not contract law.
Well, that was a bit of a wasted trip into Parliament House!
No time had been specified in the entry on the Court Rolls.So, knowing that they sometimes sit at 9.30, or other earlier times when it suits, I went away in , in the rain, to be there for 9.00 a.m.
No mention of Lord Tyre on the notice board listing the various judges and court rooms and the cases scheduled to be held today.
Back at the desk, the guy looked it up by its petition number. He had no idea why it had apparently been scrubbed.He said that it would now probably be scheduled for 20th July.
I’ve just checked the Rolls,( 10.49 a.m) and the entry for today is still there!
See these Civil Servants!
ALLYJAMBO
JULY 11, 2017 at 10:29
I think it is mutual self-interest and survival that hold the 5WA in place, not contract law.
———————————————–
…and that self-interest is wholly based on the fear of Mutually Assured Destruction, should anyone break ranks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
I noticed the phrase ‘Nash Equilibrium’ when reading the Wiki entry on M.A.D. I hadn’t come across the expression before & it’s worth a read to understand the quandaries in which the signatories to the 5WA find themselves. Rather complicated, though!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium
HIGHLANDERJULY 11, 2017 at 07:38
“I am however realistic enough to know that the chances of title-stripping are slim, because it’s highly likely that our inept and corrupt football authorities inserted a ‘no title-stripping guarantee’ into the five-way agreement.”
=====================================================
I’m with you on stripping titles. There are no mitigating factors here. Just cold, hard, deliberate actions. This was no accident, administrative error, or lack of knowledge of the rules. On the contrary it was performed with a high level of understanding of the rules.
With regards to the 5-way agreement, I think forcing it into the open, or at least having it exposed to the legals involved, in court, on a need to know basis even, (I’m pretty sure it stipulates only “acting” legal reps have the power of eyes on) is a good thing. If the signatures date preceeds the LNS decision….
…..Deary me, they do have a pickle on their hands.
HIGHLANDERJULY 11, 2017 at 07:38
“I am however realistic enough to know that the chances of title-stripping are slim, because it’s highly likely that our inept and corrupt football authorities inserted a ‘no title-stripping guarantee’ into the five-way agreement.”
There will not be a clause in the 5 way agreement regards title stripping as this would have to become a rule as it would be by its very nature an advantage not afforded to others.
The conundrum is two fold i believe, accept you are a new club and you lose claim to the titles as they are not yours and history becomes like the thirds. Continue the myth as the same club then face up to the football rules inelligble players.You cannot pretend the old co as CG had to pay football debts but not creditors,
ie old co = creditors not to be paid
Same club = pay all clubs football debts owed money for players etc
Whats it to be?
We know this is all bullshit the SFA and SPFL need to get the finger out and do what they have to do, no more pretending that the guy in the corner is elvis and when it suits the dodo is still in existence.
John ClarkJuly 11, 2017 at 10:53
“Well, that was a bit of a wasted trip into Parliament House!”
Getting out and about is never a wasted trip
And what if there was an indemnity and counter indemnity sitting alongside the 5WA? Side letters if you like?
And further to that, what if a games representatives were given the initial power by committee to offer the terms of the 5WA (which basically committed Sevco to the findings of LNS which is why it amazed me that Charlie signed up to it) but maybe didn’t have the fullest of authorities to issue any additional indemnity? Just saying.
The headline of this blog is ” time for the Scots government to take the bull by the horns “.
That is what I think should happen.
The Scottish government should set up an inquiry, headed by a senior High Court judge.
The inquiry should look at all aspects of the historical and ongoing circumstances which have engulfed Scottish football.
These circumstances include the tax cases and all the shenanigans involved in the investigation, prosecution and fallout created by the eventual verdicts.
Furthermore, the governance of those in charge of Scottish football should be examined in depth, to establish whether their management, be it active or passive, contributed to the situation now being faced.
I appreciate that FiFa and UEFA don’t take too kindly to “Government interference” in football, but, approaches to such bodies seem to be regarded as less than significant.
That is my opinion, for what it is worth. I read for the survival of the game, as it stands at this time.
‘re my last post
Last Paragraph ” Read” should be “fear “.
Can anyone tell me please how I can rid of Amazon adverts on each side of the screen when I sign in to SFM? There’s no wee ‘x’ to click on, and they just popped up. They encroach on the blogging space which means I sometimes type into them and the whole bloody page of Amazon crap comes up.
Who are these bas..rds that seem to be able to butt in to our screens without a by-your-leave?Hang them, I would!
Cluster One July 10, 2017 at 19:12
Now that craig whyte is in the clear.he has been busy(if he is still involved with sevco 5088 ltd ) https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08011390/filing-history
======================
Just caught up with this today.
The key event was the appointment of Henderson & Jones as a director last month. H&J specialise in buying up legal claims held by insolvent companies. They apparently bought the Sevco 5088 claim from Worthington Group when it was liquidated some months ago. Their appointment as director that the stopping of the dissolution of Sevco are almost certainly linked.
The Sevco 5088 claim was Whyte’s original assertion that he held a Floating Charge over the old RFC assets.
The claim was then held by Law Financial Ltd (who claimed that Sevco 5088 as a wholly owned subsidiary)
Whyte then apparently sold on Law Financial Ltd to Worthington Group. (for £1m, although that may have been in loan notes rather than cash)
Worthington’s sale of the claim onto H&J only became public knowledge last month when H&J made a £3.5m(?) claim against the Oldco. BDO went to the Court of Session for directions as the claim would hold up the distribution of a dividend to creditors. H&J was given four weeks to provide the substance of the claim, otherwise it would be rejected by BDO. The case should come back up at the CoS shortly.
As for the accounts, the £5.7m investment in 2013 seems awfully like the £5.75m that Sevco Scotland (Charles Green) ended up using to buy the Oldco’s assets.
I think the further increase of £10m represents the £10m value of the Sevco 5088 claim against the Oldco, given by Worthington when they took ownership of Law Financial.
If you can make sense of all that then you will be doing well. Basically, I think it will be down to what happens to the H&J claim which will be key.
I am led to understand ( Alan Pattulo’s recent article in the Scotsman) that Chris Sutton believes that Celtic didn’t match Rangers on the field of play ergo “Title stripping” would be wrong.I would like to say to Chris , as good a player as he was, that if Celtic had adopted the same fraudulent tactics as Rangers, it is highly plausible, that he and several other signings might never have kicked a ball for Celtic.
John, is clicking on adverts not part of the deal? Anyway, an option in Mozilla Firefox is to click ‘Open Menu’ at right of toolbar, and select ‘New Private Window’. Apologies to mods if this is unhelpful (and feel at liberty to block or remove this post).
ODDJOB
JULY 11, 2017 at 13:28
The headline of this blog is ” time for the Scots government to take the bull by the horns “.That is what I think should happen…
=============================
Absolutely, OJ.
We have seen over the last few years that MSP’s don’t want to get involved.
The SFA/SPFL don’t want seem to want to take any action either – even after the SC result.
But the SC judgement does, IMO, confirm one thing:
a member club of the SFA was acting dishonestly, re: taxes…which contributes to public monies.
The SFA, IIRC, has been a perennial recipient of public monies in the many millions.
If the SFA cannot detect – or even punish – a deviant member club’s prolonged tax dodges, then the logical question is;
“How can the public be assured that the SFA is using allocated, public monies in a competent and honest manner ?”
[i.e. this is not about football, sporting integrity etc., it’s about safeguarding limited public funds, which should be of interest to all tax payers, regardless of whether they are interested in sport or not.]
John ClarkJuly 11, 2017 at 13:50 Can anyone tell me please how I can rid of Amazon adverts on each side of the screen when I sign in to SFM? There’s no wee ‘x’ to click on, and they just popped up. They encroach on the blogging space which means I sometimes type into them and the whole bloody page of Amazon crap comes up. Who are these bas..rds that seem to be able to butt in to our screens without a by-your-leave?Hang them, I would!
John search for adblock plus for your browser, (ie mine is firefox, so i typed in adblock plus for firefox and now have adblock plus for firefox installed.It will download to your download folder blue arrow right hand top of browser in firefox open and install and if not automatically then it will advise to close your and open again with your now new all dancing add on)
once installed the right hand side of browser (top) you will red hexagon with white letters enclosed ABP, once you open any site and the ads appear right click on ad and choose from drop down menu block image option. There is no worries about the ads the fact you hit the site a register hit counter notifies you have been to the intended advert and recipent is paid. Have you noticed the herald and others want you to remove your ad block when you read their site, (now the small favour part). Try it you have nothing to lose and its firefox,google chrome, internet explorer property so they want it used.
bluJuly 11, 2017 at 14:16
bigboab1916July 11, 2017 at 15:37
_______
Thank you,gennle’men. I’ll try to follow either or both when I come back in-[ I’m just back from trip to the garden centre. Now I have to go out again!]
oddjobJuly 11, 2017 at 13:28
The headline of this blog is ” time for the Scots government to take the bull by the horns “.That is what I think should happen. The Scottish government should set up an inquiry, headed by a senior High Court judge.
……………………………………………………………………………………………….
As has been previously mentioned the Scottish Government will not touch this with a bargepole. Politicians cannot risk the ire of either half of the Blue/Green divide.
Never mind the fact the old Ibrox Club have committed the biggest sporting scandal in the UK ever and the authorities set up to guard against such behaviour, bend over backwards to keep them happy rather than apply their rules and set the record straight. There is also the minor misdemeanours of the new club over the last 5/6 years, which would have been heavily punished had it been ANY other club.
We also have the disgrace of the child abuse in Scottish Football and the incredible lack of scrutiny of potential drug taking in the sport. Yet still the Government sit on their hands.
The only hope left is either Celtic, (I know there are 40 other clubs!) taking a strong legal position if this is not addressed properly. I think they would have a very strong hand in a legal battle with the SFA over financial compensation for ineptitude/collusion resulting in them losing both prize money and European opportunity. I would love to see Campbell Ogilvie, Gordon Smith and all the other SFA cronies forced to defend their actions under oath in a court of law, especially with their “secrets” liable to be leaked at any time.
If Celtic fail to act then it’s up to the fans. Whether that takes the shape of a boycott of SFA/SPFL and their sponsors “products” or a crowd-funded legal action to reclaim losses from over a decade of watching a corrupt game in the belief it was a level playing field. Of the two I believe Celtic will have a much stronger case to force the authorities into action.
The status quo is not a long term option and failure to sort this out will be the start of the end of Scottish professional football. How ironic that would be. The reason for the SFA warning against Armageddon could be the very opposite of what actually causes it.
Both the Scottish Government and the Football authorities are full of cowardly self-serving scumbags, their pretence to be anything else makes them the lowest of the low.