The John James blog has of late thrown up many hooks to hang our theories on and provided much food for thought on the Rangers issue.
His casual invective against individuals, particularly Dave King, and often members of the Bench is not particularly SFM-like in its approach, but despite the industrial nature of much of the discourse, the value of his work cannot be denied.
On the subject of revisiting LNS, I find myself in agreement with his conclusions. His argument about Celtic’s attitude to Resolution 12 is to my mind compelling insofar as it serves as a barometer for Celtic’s disposition towards rocking the SPL/SFA boat. Like him, I cannot see any real evidence, (despite the recent statement by the club) that they are disposed to move in the direction of a revisited LNS (although it should be noted that besides Celtic there are another 40 clubs who may have an opinion on this).
His conclusions though should not be confused with his opinion on the rights and wrongs of LNS. Like most of us, he appears to be of the opinion that LNS was seriously flawed on multiple counts.
I saw Bill McMurdo’s remarks too in reference to the same topic. He alleges that the whole SFA house of cards would come down if information he has at his fingertips, information that off-book payments in Scottish football was much more widespread that the RFC EBTs, was made public.
If what he says is true, and he has evidence, he should be expanding on the innuendo.
If he chooses not to, then he is as complicit as those he accuses.
In any event, to say that no action should be taken because others have done it is not the same as saying that no action WILL be taken.
If he means the former, then he is wrong. By the logic of that argument it follows that burglars for example should not be prosecuted because other people burgle houses but didn’t get caught.
I suspect he knows himself that by any objective standard, this view is in error, because when he is called out on it, he reverts to ad hominem attacks on those who called him on it. No defence, just withering, dismissive sarcasm – in the manner of former pundit Jim Traynor when he refers to those who speak of sporting integrity.
If he means the latter, then he should do what he can do prevent it and make his information public. I believe he knows that the £3 note fraternity runs through Scottish football like lettering on a stick of seaside rock, but I suspect he doesn’t actually have evidence.
If there is evidence, then McMurdo is in a unique position to get it out in the open and make life difficult for those he alleges are corrupt.
Then we should go back in time as far as possible to investigate those who participated in “black money” schemes, whether they are EBTs, other forms of tax dodge, or just money in a brown paper bag.
I do not believe that any of us participating in the Scottish Football Monitor would fear exposure of any of our clubs. I think we all know that this is far more important than club loyalties.
If McMurdo’s information is correct, then we also have the opportunity to show that the clamour for revisiting LNS is not an anti-Rangers with-hunt. Instead of reconvening LNS, let’s have Bill’s info, and constitute a wider enquiry. If the info was made public, and it will now be difficult for him to put his genie back into the bottle, could the SFA and the clubs resist the pressure for such an enquiry?
Maybe McMurdo’s intervention/revelation may yet be seen as a seminal moment in the campaign to rid ourselves of corruption and incompetence in football.
Our position has always been clear. Corruption is counter to sporting integrity. Therefore it must be rooted out.
John James and Merlin are probably correct in that the clubs will seek to thwart any move for a new enquiry; and there could easily have been a deal done with King last week.
However there was also a deal done with Charles Green about the new club being parachuted into the SPL. How did that one turn out?
there seems to be a bit of a Vonnegut following here- there are many issues here which would meet the definition of what he called a blivit. – goggle it and you will discover what I mean.
My favourite Vonnegutism apropos Scottish Football is more optimistic;
We just need to organise properly 🙂
Big Pink 16th January 2016 at 1:42 pm #My favourite Vonnegutism apropos Scottish Football is more optimistic;
There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia.We just need to organise properly
========================
Even without collective organisation in 2012 we told Regan, Doncaster and those in charge of our clubs exactly what would happen if they put a new Rangers straight into the top league, or indeed the league below. Those in charge of the clubs were forced to listen and Regan and Doncaster became irrelevant to an extent, although they inflicted much damage on our game.
Perhaps collective organisation will be required if those who predict pre-pack admin at Ibrox in the summer followed by league reconstruction and no relegation next season are proven correct. In my opinion those two events would be no co-incidence and the fans of other clubs should say ‘no, you can’t bloody well do that!’
Big Pink 16th January 2016 at 1:42 pm
‘…We just need to organise properly’
_________
And , I think, to keep focused on ,not so much the doings of the new club, but on the terrible attack perpetrated on the Integrity of our sport by the supposed Governors of the game. There would appear to be evidence that our SFA lied, actually lied, to UEFA to get the old RFC(IL) a licence.They were in cahoots with CW and company in arranging things to try to guarantee the new club a slot in the SPL ( in the feckin SPL!).
They further helped to create and maintain the myth that really all that had happened was that ‘Rangers’ had just got a new owner!That there was no Liquidation. That there was no sporting cheating, apparently rigging the evidence presented, and, instead of remaining , as they claimed, detached because they might have to act as an appellate body, acting in effect through Bryson as agent for the defence!
And now we’ve got to watch them like hawks to ensure that they do not get away with any repeat of such behaviour, and are made to apologise for and correct their their previous contemptible behaviour.
By all means,let’s keep an eye on how the new club is being ‘looked after’ by the media and the ‘authorities’-whether sheriff or judge or whatever:
but let’s get organised enough to sort out the SFA and those dodgy men in the various League set-ups who have betrayed and destroyed our trust in them , and, frankly, in the game itself (who can now be sure of anything? of any result? ) for the narrowest or basest of motives.
One for our legal people. Was the option not available to the Wi Fi Company to simply petition the court to wind Rangers up?
https://www.mygov.scot/wind-up-a-company-that-owes-you-money/before-you-petition-the-court/
bfbpuzzled 16th January 2016 at 1:11 pm #there seems to be a bit of a Vonnegut following here- there are many issues here which would meet the definition of what he called a blivit. – goggle it and you will discover what I mean.
*********************************
From the Urban Dictionary
blivitBlivit = a fat assed ugly women. Most blivits do not take very good care of their personal hygiene or themselves. Many blivits tend to be obese slobs, and make no effort to improve their personal appearance. These hags tend to live on junk food, pop and munchies – where are the doritos !
Not sure if this is what old Kurt had in mind but you never know!!
Big Pink 16th January 2016 at 1:42 pm
==========================
Sorry for being off topic, however this is one of my favourite authors speaking of another.
In a 1979 interview released in 2007, Douglas Adams discussed Vonnegut as an influence on The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy:
“Sirens of Titan is just one of those books – you read it through the first time and you think it’s very loosely, casually written. You think the fact that everything suddenly makes such good sense at the end is almost accidental. And then you read it a few more times, simultaneously finding out more about writing yourself, and you realize what an absolute tour de force it was, making something as beautifully honed as that appear so casual.”
Caveat Emptor 16th January 2016 at 2:50 pm
===============================
Vonnegut
“This is certainly that kind of masterpiece, and a new name should be created for such an all-frequencies assault on the sensibilities. I propose the name blivit. This is a word which during my adolescence was defined by peers as “two pounds of shit in a one-pound bag.” ’
The Vonnegut definition is more shall we say scatalogical and appropriate to many of the actors in play.
My favourite line is from Deadeye Dick where the editor of a newspaper’s son has been shot by accident and he writes an editorial “I give you a holy word-disarm.”
St Johnstone: Michael O’Halloran will not feature today and appears close to a move to Rangers. #BBCSportsound
I would hope that this is not the case and that the club has not caved in to pressure from various sources. There appear to be rather more than the usual numbers of MSM people with an interest in what is taking place at McDiarmid Park this afternoon.
edit to add: I’m sure they are not there for the football on offer. 0 – 0
Nice to hear Tom English say “Reconstruction no thanks I’m enjoying this” Me too despite getting thumped.
smallchange 16th January 2016 at 4:20 pm #St Johnstone: Michael O’Halloran will not feature today and appears close to a move to Rangers. #BBCSportsoundI would hope that this is not the case and that the club has not caved in to pressure from various sources. There appear to be rather more than the usual numbers of MSM people with an interest in what is taking place at McDiarmid Park this afternoon. 20
————————————–
As Mr Vonnegut of the Tralfamadorean Times would say – so it goes.
As it’s a quiet evening on here an update to my last.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35333919
The only “pressure” on St Johnstone is whether or not to monetize a players registration……same “pressure” that any (and in Scotland that means most) clubs who rely on cup runs and player sales to make ends meet.
It might be worth wondering where Rangers are getting the money from (though it may simply be that tales of impending financial doom have been driven by wishful thinking….yet again) but overall this is a non story….Saints can happily knock back this approach….unless they want to cash in….and if they do its as a result of their reading of the best result for them and not due to any external “pressure” imo.
I wouldn`t be a bit surprised if Michael O`Halloran signed for Celtic next week
parttimearab 16th January 2016 at 8:40 pm
….and if they do its as a result of their reading of the best result for them and not due to any external “pressure” imo.
________________
And if they end up selling a player they would prefer to keep rather than holding onto one who has had his head turned by a media campaign…? Unless Keith Wright has been taking integrity lessons from Dave King, then it would appear that ‘external pressure’ has had an effect on the player, at least, if not on those well known hard nosed charlatans at St Johnstone!
Of course, maybe O’Halloran’s problem is an injury…to his pride, at an offer that doesn’t match the desperation to sign him
parttimearab 16th January 2016 at 8:40 pm #
The only “pressure” on St Johnstone is whether or not to monetize a players registration……same “pressure” that any (and in Scotland that means most) clubs who rely on cup runs and player sales to make ends meet.It might be worth wondering where Rangers are getting the money from (though it may simply be that tales of impending financial doom have been driven by wishful thinking….yet again) but overall this is a non story….Saints can happily knock back this approach….unless they want to cash in….and if they do its as a result of their reading of the best result for them and not due to any external “pressure” imo.
===============================================
There’s not a lot that I would disagree with there. Probably didn’t make my point too well but the pressure I was referring to was that which comes from the relentless hype from the media which generates expectation in the fans in one camp and resentment in the other. Of course clubs can deal with it, as has the St Johnstone manager, he reiterated the club’s stance to BBC Sport this evening. (See my previous link).
I guess what is really annoying has been all the talk about them not having the wherewithall to make such bids but whether the money is available or not, and surely it must be otherwise the governing bodies would be all over this
it is the players themselves that become affected by the constant media speculation in the press and eventually the manager has to omit him from the team sheet, as happened again today. We saw the same earlier in the season when the same club tabled what were regarded as derisory bids for Scott Alan.
I suppose it’s something we have to live with as the clubs (41) have had ample opportunities to put a stop to the nonsense but appear to be reluctant to act as a united body.
goosygoosy @ 9.32pm
i thought about that today and suggested it to my husband and kids ……… I was talking rubbish but hey maybe it isn’t so out there after all ?
I’m with Goosy on this. Tommy Wright & the chairman, in the lounge before the game, both very clearly stated that rangers were ‘taking the pi55’ with their attempts. It occurred to me then that if he’s going anywhere it’s not ibrox…
Hello Brenda and a Happy New Year to you. Just hoping no one refers to us as ‘blivits’ as per the definition @ Caveat Emptor 16th January 2016 at 2:50 pm #
smallchange 16th January 2016 at 8:09 pm
‘…As it’s a quiet evening on here .’
__________
It is indeed.
So quiet that I began to re-read my copy of Lord Nimmo Smith’s “Reasons for decision dated 12 September 2012”.
I took it with me when I went to Australia early in 2013,as some light holiday reading!
As I was reading it earlier this evening, I came to a note I had scribbled on the back of one of the pages (page 16)which was the only immediately available bit of paper to hand( late at night, wife sleeping, me having a wee swally while reading another book entitled “Australia’s Birth-stain”). I was anxious to note down one sentence in that book referring to a particular historical character, because it could have applied to ….?
The sentence reads” He had been protected from public criticism throughout by a combination of fellow ‘gentry’, sycophantic employees and an obsequious Press”
And, unconnectedly connected to that, when I turn back to the text of Nimmo, there is that nice little sentence “The SPL disputes that Rangers FC ceased to be a club on 14 June 2012 and argues that that the relevant date is 3 August 2012”!
ianagain 16th January 2016 at 5:35 pm #Nice to hear Tom English say “Reconstruction no thanks I’m enjoying this” Me too despite getting thumped.
========================
That’s the bottom line Ian. Sometimes our teams have results we don’t like, but they are still our teams. In fact a few weeks ago your team deservedly beat my team. I didn’t like it, I’m sure you did!
parttimearab 16th January 2016 at 9:47 pm #Allyjambo 16th January 2016 at 9:34 pm #parttimearab 16th January 2016 at 8:40 pm….and if they do its as a result of their reading of the best result for them and not due to any external “pressure” imo.________________
And if they end up selling a player they would prefer to keep rather than holding onto one who has had his head turned by a media campaign…? Unless Keith Wright has been taking integrity lessons from Dave King, then it would appear that ‘external pressure’ has had an effect on the player, at least, if not on those well known hard nosed charlatans at St Johnstone!
Ally, the player has at least a year and probably more left on his contract so if the Sainties really want to hang on to hin then they can – he won’t be the first or last to be ‘tapped up” via the press and I doubt there are many clubs who are clean than clean on that score (mine included).
________________
I suppose it is possible that no club ever feels under pressure to sell a player to another club, and that no player ever reacts to reading his name in the headlines of the back page of every newspaper, every day for a week or so, but unless St Johnstone decided to leave O’Halloran out today just for a laugh, I’d say someone there is feeling pressure.
I’m sure that while every club has done it’s (un)fair share of ‘tapping up’, no club has ever received the concerted help from the media that TRFC have received on at least two occassions this season. What I am also sure of is that if any other club was trying to buy a player with ludicrous offers, far from being made to look like the wicked stepmother, refusing to let little Michael marry the beautiful princess, by the media, St Johnstone would be made to look like Poland in 1939, facing a much larger bully.
Hopefully St Johnstone will be able to stand up to this campaign and not accept a penny less than they might accept from anyone else, but they will have to decide whether or not it’s worth their while holding onto a player who might be buying into everything he reads in the DR and other comics. As has been mentioned here often enough, footballers aren’t as aware of how much nonsense the media spew out, particularly on behalf of clubs from Govan, as regular readers of SFM tend to be.
As the off field TRFC woes accumulate…
The transfer window has closed with minimal activity – and immaterial (or nil) cash brought in from player sales.
Onfield, TRFC still looks likely to secure promotion to the top league – to complete the glorious journey!
However, snowballing legal fees, overdue trade creditors, etc drain the RIFC/TRFC cash reserves dry.
And ST renewals are still a few months away.
TRFC instruct their SMSM friends to crank up the pressure: the football team’s success in recent years should not be terminated due to ‘dodgy’ characters in the past who took advantage of the Ibrox club. It’s so unfair!!!
And the SPFL and Scottish football is ‘badly missingRangers’ in the top league.
So, the least we can do is support the SPFL and/or the SFA to advance monies to TRFC until ST renewals.
The alternative would be unthinkable for Scottish football…
==================
Total boll#x of course, so mibbees not so far fetched where TRFC is concerned!
Scottish football has far too many teams for a variety of historical factors. Arbroath or Cowdenbeath or Stanraer for example are given a place in the SPFL but do they actually make the game better. Australia has just 10 teams and one of them is from New Zealand. Who do you reckon will qualify for the next World Cup? Scotland or Australia?
If you could start all over in Scotland would you reckon we need so many teams?
Fisiani 17th January 2016 at 9:50 am #Scottish football has far too many teams for a variety of historical factors. Arbroath or Cowdenbeath or Stanraer for example are given a place in the SPFL but do they actually make the game better. Australia has just 10 teams and one of them is from New Zealand. Who do you reckon will qualify for the next World Cup? Scotland or Australia? If you could start all over in Scotland would you reckon we need so many teams?
===============
Hi Fisiani,
I’ve seen this argument and similar made many times over the years but I have to say I’ve never understood it at all.
What is it we think these small clubs are doing which has such a negative effect on the whole of the game?
As far as I can see the failures of Scottish Football are with the Adminitrators and with the “elite” clubs, I don’t really see the presence or number of small clubs as having any impact on this one way or the other?
Have the conspiracy theorists missed a trick re the 802 WiFi £300k.
From reports we now know the motion for arrestment started on 31 December and an interim interdict appears to have been granted but not reported.
The motion to make it permanent was heard on 11 January.
Meanwhile around 7 January,with no apparent warning, Rangers First announce they will vote to give the club £500k.
The decision and vote are rushed through even though there was no apparent need or request for the cash by the club and all this prior to an end of January early February AGM (according to Brian Bowman) where matter could have fully discussed and put forward via a resolution.
The ‘cash rich’ club immediately announce they don’t really need the money.
However by the 11 January hearing the issue is in the public domain for any persons in the legal world who keep their eyes on the back pages and, unlike other votes relating the the Ibrox club, the result is announced immediately and before the second part of the hearing just in case the sheriff needs evidence of the existence of deep pockets out there.
In between times key people within Rangers Fisrt question what is going on and requests are made for James Blair to reign from the board given his conflict of interest being the RIFC Company Secretary.
Would a company secretary be the type of person who would know about interim interdicts agianst his company that were not published in the press?
Can anyone else remember a time where apparent sources of “investment” were confirmed to get over a going concern hurdle only to apparently disappear at a later date?
I’ll get in before Red Lichtie arrives to defend Arbroath.
I really don’t understand how having fewer teams would improve the game in any way. Australia has basically a USA style franchise system, with no promotion or relegation. Some people think that’s a great idea (including Doncaster and Regan, no doubt), but I think that it is completely at odds with any notion of sporting integrity as I understand it. The franchise system is just about making money, in my opinion. I’m frankly amazed that anyone goes to watch a 10 team league with no promotion or relegation, and no doubt some artificial play-off carry on after the league is complete, just to get more games in.
Maybe the reason that Australia is more likely to qualify for the next World Cup is down to a much larger population, and the fact that Australia have an easier route to qualification. I really wouldn’t fancy Australia’s chances of qualifying from a European group. Not that I fancy Scotland’s chances either.
I’m sure plenty will disagree.
My sunday morning thought for the day…
Once again we find our clubs, the sports media and administrators of our game returning to throw league reconstruction back on the table.
I used to be a fairly strong advocate of some league restructuring as I am convinced the current set up is very poor. But as time passes I’m starting to realise the league structure is insignificant next to the most important changes needed to breath life into the future of our game.
IMO.
1. Real, measured, honest & strict FFP for ALL the “elite” clubs
2. Strict Liability for fan behaviour that incites hatred or puts safety at risk
3. The introduction of a system that creates competition through some means of reducing the quality gap.
I think 1 and 2 are no brainers really.
3. is something I’ve never previously been in favour of but taking a step back and looking at the problem we have selling our game, the biggest one in my opinion is the complete lack of competition for the league championship that is a result of the size gap between the clubs.
Until a way is found to resolve this our league championship is always going to be rather boring for fans. A return to a two horse race is not a solution in any way either. We need some method of levelling to create genuine competition where the big clubs can still benefit from their larger fanbase but the best side any given year from the other clubs has a realistic chance of winning the league championship over a season.
If only 1 or 2 clubs can ever win the league, then there is no competition in the area of the league that matters most, so really what is the point in it at all?
While the media moan about a bigger league being less competitive in the middle of the table, the elephant in the room that they consistently ignore is that we have next to no real competition at the top of the table and haven’t had for 20 years or more.
I’ve even taken to watching NFL on BBC and I can tell you despite only learning the basics of the game, its a damn site more interesting than the repetitive dross served up by TV companies covering Scottish Football.
Fisiani @ 9:50am,There was a time I thought broadly along those lines. Until relatively recently, to be quite honest.The first inkling that I was maybe not looking at things correctly came following a discussion on these matters with a supporter of a rival, some would say now deceased, team.
He made the point that the likes of ‘Arbroath or Cowdenbeath or Stfanraer for example’ are not part of any problem.
These are teams that exist because those who support them want them to exist and do so within the parameters of their income. They go about their business as best they can and (it’s only a cliche because it’s true) form an important part of their community. They don’t ‘demand’ success and howl about it when it doesn’t come. They don’t cheat and connive with those in ‘authority’ to bend the system to their selfish needs.
For me, the events of the last few years have done nothing but reinforce this view.
I think I have a very different, and healthier, view now of what ‘better’ means. It is not breaking everything to get some fleeting success in increasing commercialised and corrupt international competitions.It involves healthy and honest competition amongst teams who just want to pay football as well as their circumstances allow and, at the same time, try to make their sport more appealing to a generation with a thousand other options for filling their free time.
My own interest in ‘top-flight’ football wanes with every passing year. If certain matters in the Scottish game go the way I fear they may, it will undoubtedly disappear.
Whether my interest in football as a whole will then cease is something I’ll find out at that time.But it is now quite possible I’ll become a lot more interested and genuinely admiring of ‘Arbroath or Cowdenbeath or Stranraer for example’.
So it goes.
Fisiani 17th January 2016 at 9:50 am
‘..f you could start all over in Scotland would you reckon we need so many teams? ‘
Matty Roth 17th January 2016 at 9:58 am
‘…As far as I can see the failures of Scottish Football are with the Adminitrators and with the “elite” clubs, ‘
____________
There are three salient facts:
generally,football is no longer the principal recreation of the ‘working man’ as it was when the stadiums that most clubs have were originally built, to accommodate many more thousands than can now be dreamed of by those clubs
townsfolk in the single-team townships/cities appear not to be attached to their football club in paying numbers to anything like the extent that they once were
being individual , privately owned (in the main) commercial enterprises , clubs ultimately live or die by the operation of the market.
The extent to which the football leagues , as associations of small-o-medium businesses , can be expected to provide mutual help and financial sharing to the extent necessary to sustain otherwise market- struggling or failing clubs is necessarily limited.
Is there a case for ‘nationalising’ football in the sense at least of requiring Government to provide direct financial support on,say, the grounds of ‘historical’ significance, or a supposed current ‘social significance’, so that struggling clubs can be kept in healthy, competitive existence?
Or must the laws of the market-place be allowed to take their course, as they do in the world of small, local retail shopping?
At bottom, survival of the economically fittest clubs.
And to a great extent, that is a function of the demand for the services of those clubs.
It seems pretty clear to me that our Football authorities , very good at aiding and helping one brand new club,have, by doing so ,put the economic future of other clubs at further risk.
That is, not only have they been singularly ineffective in promoting the game in such way as to bring back the attendances of the many thousands who switched off in the past for whatever reason, they have by their perfidy created a situation where many supporters of many clubs now are ready to walk away in disgust in the belief that the whole sport is not only badly administered, but tainted forbye.
Not a good place to be in.
And certainly not in any position to expect the tax-payer to help out by any kind of subsidy while the wrong done remains undone.
If Celtic desperately want Rangers to make it into the top division for the first time then why would they let Anthony Stokes go to Hibs on loan. Surely he will improve Hibs’ prospects of winning the division and gaining automatic promotion.
Surely this has debunked the myth that Celtic desperately need Rangers.
Will the “pundits” like Hugh Keevins ignore this and carry on with their mantra, normally allied to “any Celtic fan who denies this is lying”.
A bit puzzled as to talking up the Australian game,when you look at their players picked for international duty you struggle to find a home based player,when you then look at the home based teams they are loaded with Johny foreigner playing out their days in a bit of sunshine and a final pay day,there are some Gold Coast nuggets but once they are panned out they are off to foreigne soil,as KT is saying above our game has improved over the past 3 years and maybe to help it right along we could do with Celtic going the same way as their now dead rivals,what a game leveller we would have then,so come on Mr Lawell spend the cash ,go belly up and make our game interesting again,simples.
John Clark 16th January 2016 at 11:23 pm # smallchange 16th January 2016 at 8:09 pm‘…As it’s a quiet evening on here .’__________It is indeed. So quiet that I began to re-read my copy of Lord Nimmo Smith’s “Reasons for decision dated 12 September 2012”.I took it with me when I went to Australia early in 2013,as some light holiday reading! As I was reading it earlier this evening, I came to a note I had scribbled on the back of one of the pages (page 16)which was the only immediately available bit of paper to hand( late at night, wife sleeping, me having a wee swally while reading another book entitled “Australia’s Birth-stain”). I was anxious to note down one sentence in that book referring to a particular historical character, because it could have applied to ….?The sentence reads” He had been protected from public criticism throughout by a combination of fellow ‘gentry’, sycophantic employees and an obsequious Press” And, unconnectedly connected to that, when I turn back to the text of Nimmo, there is that nice little sentence “The SPL disputes that Rangers FC ceased to be a club on 14 June 2012 and argues that that the relevant date is 3 August 2012”!
_______________________________
John, I don’t know if you are aware of it, but your post has elicited comment on twitter from the Govan intelligentsia! As you might expect, they are attacking the messenger rather than making themselves aware (as if they would ever want to be aware) of what your quote from LNS means. What it means for their club. What it means to the OC/NC debate.
While they, and the SMSM, seem happy to cling onto Nimmo Smith’s acknowledgement that the SPL treat TRFC as the same club, even though LNS himself doesn’t state that he agrees that they are, I doubt they’d be happy to use the above sentence in their argument! Here he clearly says that there is a dispute – but not a dispute that RFC ‘ceased to be a club’, the only dispute is to do with the day on which they died!
I have to admit, I was unaware of that sentence in his ‘Reasons for Decision’, but it might make quite a good quote as a banner headline for this blog, as an example of just how the Scottish media cherry-pick facts to suit their agenda!
It might be nice if someone could ask one of the succulents to give an interpretation of that sentence from LNS, or, even better, to ask Neil Doncaster his opinion of it, and if he agrees with his lordship that there was a dispute over the date of death of Rangers FC; or, if there was, in his opinion, no such dispute, is LNS lying? For if LNS is correct, then how on earth could he, Doncaster, make that ludicrous statement that, according to LNS, TRFC and RFC are one and the same?
Perhaps, of course, where there is a dispute over the date of death of someone, or something, then the person, or thing, lives on!
Neepheid
I must disagree with what you say about Australia’s path for WC qualification. Asia Conderation only has 2.5 places for thr WC so the competiton is fierce. In all fairness, Scotland would struggle to qualify if the were in the Asian Confederation.
Also while our population is higher, we have 4 different professional football codes in operation. Australian Ru,es, Rugby League, Rugby Union and Soccer. Of which the A League ranks number 4. So while our population is higher, competition to attract elite athletes to the sport is very high.
other comments about the A League and franchise systems are misinformed at best. The idea that franchise teams are there only to make money is ill-informed. What it does do is provide a consistentent financial base to ensure all teams are competitive over a cycle.
What we dont have is the same one or two teams winning the comp every year, and the league is never decided in the first half of the season.
Regarding the O’Halloran non-situation, I’m puzzled as to how it’s been reported that the Ibrox club won’t be held to ransom over a player that’s not theirs. It smacks of entitlement by proxy from the reporter concerned (assuming it’s not a direct quote from the club). Perhaps they feel St Johnstone are guilty of attempted extortion but didn’t want to drag Scottish football through the courts 14 so used the ransom metaphor. Perhaps they were just writing what they were told to, bypassing sense, professionalism and whatever education they had.
Fisiani, I hope you’ve got a tin hat on, suggesting Scottish football doesn’t need any Arbroath! I think there are so many teams because some towns probably would be perceived as more distant from each other in the Victorian era and, therefore each represented an area in their own right. Modern transport links make those towns seem closer (some have converged), giving the impression of over-representation of an area. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. It also depends on how you gauge success and whether the number of clubs is directly correlated to that. It may be a part of it but I think good leadership from the top and more professionalism from players susceptible to cultural distractions (booze, night clubs, fish suppers, gambling, burdz?) will have more of an effect. We’ve all seen gifted players fail to meet their potential.
Unless clubs merge (rarely an option) or go bust (and cease to exist – if you can imagine that) the lower division clubs will be around, whether that’s where they sit in the structure now or in a regional set-up. Your question about starting the game from scratch isn’t really valid (though I accept it’s been asked to provoke debate – fair enough). Clubs will have started organically around the country as the sport gained popularity. I know Clyde FC was allied to a Clyde rowing club etc as Victorian gents found interests in their spare time. Fewer clubs in the senior league may mean more sponsorship or TV money for the top teams now but this won’t have been a consideration in the early days. Maybe it shouldn’t be now.
Anyway, I think Gayfield probably provides a valuable wind break to the town, SPFL or no SPFL.
Some random thoughts on Fisiani’s original post and the ensuing discussion.
I strongly suspect that Australia play very few if any current A-League players nor do very many a-league players graduate to teams where they do obtain a Socceroo call up. Rogic may be an exception. I also get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the A-League is mainly for aging players to pick up one last pay day. Harry Kewell? Also, certainly for friendlies and training camps aren’t the Socceroos based in London because the majority of the squad is UK/Europe based. The A-League sides also aren’t a blazing success in the Asian equivalent of the Champions League https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_clubs_in_the_AFC_Champions_League
I am definitely against a franchise system with no promotion relegation. The pyramid system however does not need to maintain 42 teams in the SPFL. As long as they had a realistic chance of regaining SPFL status by promotion there is no reason why Scotland shouldn’t mimic the Englandshire Conference which is effectively League 3 in footballing terms but not in name, admin and sponsorship arrangements.
I do however firmly agree that Scotland’s success or rather lack of it is nothing at all to do with the more lowly clubs. It is lack of competition at the top of the pyramid. I am by no means suggesting a return to a duopoly with TRFC replacing RFC in that equation. We are seeing a return to competition where there is no mutually assured destruction (MAD) because clubs are living within their means. Clubs are no longer trying to hang on to the coat tails of the now deceased club that was involved in financial doping from pretty much the day SDM took control. First it was bank loans that would never be repaid, then withholding money from HMRC and finally stuffing all those creditors. Celtic have probably lost most with the demise of RFC and this has meant Aberdeen and Hearts have got closer. With both still improving Celtic will have to too. ICT , St Johnstone and others are also keeping the heat on Aberdeen and Hearts. In short Scottish football is improving because the competition is back.
John Clark 17th January 2016 at 10:39 am
Is there a case for ‘nationalising’ football in the sense at least of requiring Government to provide direct financial support on,say, the grounds of ‘historical’ significance, or a supposed current ‘social significance’, so that struggling clubs can be kept in healthy, competitive existence?Or must the laws of the market-place be allowed to take their course, as they do in the world of small, local retail shopping?
=================================
I never had you down as a proponent of ‘State Aid’, John
Flocculent Apoidea 17th January 2016 at 11:11 am # Regarding the O’Halloran non-situation, I’m puzzled as to how it’s been reported that the Ibrox club won’t be held to ransom over a player that’s not theirs. It smacks of entitlement by proxy from the reporter concerned (assuming it’s not a direct quote from the club). Perhaps they feel St Johnstone are guilty of attempted extortion but didn’t want to drag Scottish football through the courts 14 so used the ransom metaphor. Perhaps they were just writing what they were told to, bypassing sense, professionalism and whatever education they had.
_______________
The use of the rather emotive word, ‘ransom’ in this saga has had me wishing I could ask whoever introduced it to describe exactly how it applies in this scenario. I believe it was attributed to Mark ‘of respect’ Warburton, though not sure if it was a direct quote, and for such a man, he is a City Trader after all, to use it, must mean there is a genuine infringement of human rights involved, I’m sure. (I know there is no relationship between a ‘City Trader’ and the honouring of human rights, in fact there’s no relationship between ‘honour’ and ‘City Trader’, but if being a City Trader can equate to being a super duper football manager, then it must mean something).
It is in this ramping up of the rather nasty hyperbole that I feel could have an effect on the people surrounding St Johnstone, and previously Hibs, as no decent person likes to be accused of something as despicable as ransom, and I can imagine some of the St Johnstone board might well find they are getting some gentle, and some not so gentle, ribbing from business colleagues and customers in our little country, where supporters of one particular club seem to think they have a god given right to demand everyone plays ball under their rules!
I’m not saying the SJ board will relent to the media bombardment, but it is possible, and is no doubt the objective, that it might lead to some of the board deciding enough is enough and they’d be as well accepting any offer as having their private and business lives affected in any way.
But one thing’s for sure, if TRFC, or any club, feels it is being held to ‘ransom’ any time another club turns down their offer for a player, then it’s time they stopped trying to buy players and started producing some of their own!
It really is quite simple, if TRFC have already made their highest offer, and St Johnstone have turned it down, then only TRFC can be indulging in anything less than honourable if they continue to press the club and player, in any way whatsoever!
Allyjambo 17th January 2016 at 10:48 am
‘..John, I don’t know if you are aware of it, but your post has elicited comment on twitter from the Govan intelligentsia!.’
_______
Ah’m feart to look in case ma heid goes wrang! (And I’ll forbear from making any crack about oxymorons!)
Jingso.Jimsie 17th January 2016 at 11:25 am
‘..I never had you down as a proponent of ‘State Aid’, John’
__________
My use of language can be a bit clumsy,I have to say.
I think I meant that there is a place for recognition that football clubs certainly were important social institutions at least one-dimensionally (i.e. only in respect of the 90 minute football spectating experience), and increasingly are becoming much more diverse in their community usefulness as valuable venues for all kinds of non-directly-related-to-football social events. Subsidised ‘community’ ownership to enhance and preserve the place of football clubs in their communities might conceivably be a worthwhile idea.
But of course, underpinning anything that may be done has to be insistence on genuine sporting competition between football clubs as football clubs, competition honestly and fairly administered.
Anything else would just be a sham, kind of like the old Soviet idea of sporting competition.
JC – You have a PM
John Clark 17th January 2016 at 12:10 pm
+
Well done John for highlighting what imo is a very under-used quote. Of all the mental gymnastics ingrained into the new clubs support, this one produces the most hilarious response. A sort of hands in pockets swaying of the shoulders, followed by a bizarre need to observe their own feet kicking imaginary stones is normal.
Nadia Comaneci in her heyday couldn’t back-flip her way out of that one.
I notice JJ has produced a very plausible reasoning behind the repayment of the SD loan – basically MA was threatening them with a receivership order if they didn’t stump up. As usual, he gives no hint as to where the information comes from, nor why we should believe his assertion is correct. It is, however, extremely plausible, especially if we add it to the theory that Big Mike has recognised that the value of the security had diminished. He also makes the valid point that, had the repayment been in the pipeline at the signing off of the accounts, then the requirement of funding would have been £7.5m, not £2.5m, to see them to year end.
It does look to me as though Ashley is winding down his involvement with TRFC, and now only has an interest in his, relatively small (for him), shareholding, and control of RRL, which, I’m sure, Ashley doesn’t see in terms of football, nor as related to ‘Rangers’, but purely as an income stream to be manipulated to his greater benefit. If TRFC supporters see this as a win for King and Real Rangers Men, then I can say I’m glad that they have lost at least one potential saviour, with genuine millions, should things go wrong soon, or later, in the club’s short history.
Now that the dust has settled, or is, at least, settling, over the SD loan repayment, I wonder if the O’Halloran saga will start to wind down
, or maybe there is something else on the horizon requiring the use of a squirrel?
Fisiani 17th January 2016 at 9:50 am #
Scottish football has far too many teams for a variety of historical factors. Arbroath or Cowdenbeath or Stanraer for example are given a place in the SPFL but do they actually make the game better. Australia has just 10 teams and one of them is from New Zealand. Who do you reckon will qualify for the next World Cup? Scotland or Australia? If you could start all over in Scotland would you reckon we need so many teams?
——————————————————————————————————————–
I think it is good that SFM can be open to the above contribution and a rational discussion ensue thereafter.
Whilst obviously declaring a vested interest and holding perhaps a counter view to the original posting
, I find that I cannot add much to the comments already made by others.
The Arbroaths, Cowdenbeaths and Stranraers are in effect the ‘community SMEs’ of the SPFL ‘industry’. They provide a support structure to allow a competitive overall environment (leagues where sporting merit prevails), a feed of players for ‘bigger’ teams and a means of gaining experience for youngsters loaned out by those same ‘big boys’ for that purpose.
They also act as a means of getting youngsters interested in football, with the added benefit of not exposing them to the less savoury aspects of the Glasgow football scene.
As far as I am aware none of these smaller clubs are spending beyond their means in anything but the short term as there is just not any real safety net for them.
If anything the Arbroaths, Cowdenbeaths and Stranraers should often be more of a model for their ‘betters’ in how to run clubs both for the long term and with the interests of their own communities in mind.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath, Cowdenbeath and Stranraer (and East Fife) ……but does it need Rangers and Celtic? I posit no as someone else might say!
easyJambo 17th January 2016 at 12:44 pm
‘.JC – You have a PM’
_________
I have (attishoo!) replied.
It is very simple.
Club A (or 12) contacts Club B regarding a player they want to buy. They make an offer. Club B decides it is derisory and does NOT meet their valuation. Club A makes a further bid. They offer some more money and include several clauses that would generate futher payment. Crucially, these clauses are unlikely to be met for some or many years, if at all. Club B says thank you but not interested. Club A informs the media that they will NOT be held to ransom. The media do their duty.
Now, the problem arises when the player tells Club B that he wants to move. Club B now have an unhappy player and an unsatisfactory bid.
Club B needs to tell the player he can go, if his valuation is met. Club B needs to tell Club A, publicly, that if their valuation is met, the player can go. Money upfront. No clauses. If the valuation is not met then the player goes nowhere.
All this tiptoeing around Rangers does my head in. Everytime they are after a player it is one unsatisfactory bid after another and claims that THEY will not be held to ransom. They like to talk about respect but as far as i am concerned, they are the ones who show it least.
redlichtie 17th January 2016 at 1:34 pm
===========================
You are of course perfectly entitled to hold the opinion that Scottish football does not need Celtic. It doesn’t “need” any specific club.
However I would argue that Celtic brings a lot of supporters to the game, both attending games (home and away) and watching on television (in Scotland and elsewhere). This helps bring money into the game, directly and through sponsorship.
I would argue that Celtic have also done a bit to assist with the European co-efficient. Which helps themselves and other clubs go further in the competitions by getting better draws in the early stages.
So I would concede Scottish football does not “need” Celtic. However neither does it “need” Arbroath, Cowdenbeath and Stranraer as you have suggested.
Some interesting comments on smaller clubs, smaller/bigger leagues but what is responsible for making the decisions but the same mind set which caused the need for reform in the first place?
Enter Einstein.
“Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them.”
Albert Einstein
If ever there was proof Albert knew his stuff it is the way Scottish football has been run for years.
What is required is external input but with the authority to bring about any recommendations made. Henry McLeish had a go but his argument for a smaller league probably reflected the thinking of the game at the time and “consultants” hired by an organisation usually produce what they think would be acceptable to the organisation hiring them, so the thinking that causes the problem is still involved in the solving of it.
What would be interesting would be a truly independent review of Scottish football involving fans (which means setting up a mechanism that includes fans in the consideration process) and an undertaking by clubs and their representative governing organisations that they will surrender to the will of the wider/greater good.
Some rainbow not blue sky thinking is now needed as blue and Sky seem to have gone hand in hand in bringing us to the state the game finds itself.
Let’s have a proper well thought out independent investigation (perhaps Govt funded?) to first identify the problems in order to identify possible solutions and come up with solutions that take the long term good of Scottish football into account.
If ever there was a case to show how badly Scottish football has been served by current SFA/SP(F)L governance arrangements it is the contribution they made to the fate of RFC which the trials should bring out this year, assuming of course the media send any reporters to court.
What a bizarre decision in the excellent Ross County Aberdeen game today by referee Crawford Allan! Don’t think I’ve seen or ever heard its’ like in all my years watching football.
The County player appears to be fouled in the corner of the penalty area. Jim McIntyre said on Radio Scotland that the referee had told him at half time that he did indeed see the challenge as a foul but rather than award a penalty kick – I think most people see as next best option to a goal – he decided to award County the advantage of play continuing. Why did Allan do this?
It sounds almost perverse and offers yet another example of why so many fans believe our refs are not fit for purpose or just plain rotten. What does Mr Fleming do in his role of developing referees? They are so abject one really begins to wonder how Fleming has remained in post for so long.
jimmci 17th January 2016 at 3:03 pm #
Ok jim i’ll bite. 3 pens not given at Tannadice 4 Tangerines on Friday. 2 for fouls on young Murray, and Forrest using hand to control ball. and MORE than a hint of offside 4 Griffiths 50th, he was. Thumbs down quick before post deleted 4 obvious reason
tamjartmarquez 17th January 2016 at 3:40 pm
I would say one penalty not given. The Forrest handball. He was in acres of space and not under any pressure, but it was handball in the box, whatever way you look at it. I’m sure you will get another chance to view it, as all three incidents will be included in the highlights.
tamjartmarquez, I’ve had my fair share of thumbsdown in my day, mostly deserved. Probably. But you really were asking for it there!
Anyway at the last count it is 21 – 21, so either you are a very balanced poster or there are a lot more Jambos and Tangerines on here than I gave credit for.
ps that was 350th post. I want a tee shirt!
Well I listened to the game on the radio and it was never a penalty.
ernie,
Can anyone remember what was going on at the Big Hoose when Hibs were holding TRFC to ransom over Scott Allan?
And
Whether the MSM have followed an identical sequence in the current case with Michael O`Halloran?
OK thanks to the mods and to all posters. i have been out 4 a few scoops tea time, as is my want
. so encouraged by the equilibrium. i have observed the ‘comments re the Waghorn pens. thank you again to the mods 4 their forbearance. this is the strength of this site. no abuse 50% of posters who responded either agreed with me or my sentiments. i was not being critical of referee , but saying what i saw. Corrupt Official, thank u 4 your polite response. i could argue but thanks everyone, and mods, this site rawks
Scottish Championship penalties 2015/2016
The Rangers – 12 Penalties
All other 9 teams – 10 Penalties
OK seeing as we are in the mood for thumbs down and it’s a quiet night, here we go.
Music at football.
I love nothing better than a bit of atmosphere at the games. I am very fortunate that my club have a song book which praises the club, the team, the players past and present and could be sung without repeat for 90 mins. and still have dozens left unsung. Without reference to the IRA or Ireland. Just about Celtic FC.
Wee Fergus put a very firm view on what could be sung at Celtic Park by our support. It’s a pity that other clubs didn’t follow suit. I know Celtic away supporters still stretch it to the limit – why?
I don’t like politics in football grounds. I realise that most ‘dodgy’ songs sung by Celtic away supporters are not bigoted nor sectarian but political or historical. But again I ask why? My grandparents were Irish and I love so many of those songs but at football? Why?
I could obviously ask the same questions at Ibrox. Why? 600+ years later. Let it go!
For all the other clubs in Scotland I think it’s more a wind up rather than tribalism so I forigve you Jambos.
So my message on this Sabbath night is forget the songs you don’t need to sing. Sing in praise of your club.
Amen.
That’s me finally subscribed to this fine site. Please spend my hard earned cash wisely!
Just watched StJ V Ham there on BBC Alba. Would still prefer Stuart Cosgrove commentating, difficult though he is, I could just about understand it better. Enjoyed the game BTW.
Down in the Sevcoside of Glasgow the fixtures are piling up with the first tomorrow morning (Bunnet, Mr Doleman).
Care has to be taken that all the on the field activity doesn’t distract from the core business; litigation.
A Judge who didn’t enjoy his breakfast; a Solicitor with a bad headcold; an Advocate who doesn’t fancy pleading in an artificial Court; a Queen’ Counsel called up for International duty- these are all potential pitfalls which have to be met with staunchness, respect and dignity.
It is important that the peripheral business of kicking a ball doesn’t detract from what has become the traditional ethos of the enterprise; Court cases. Or to be more accurate defending Court cases.
It is passing strange that despite all of the perceived wrongdoing, injustice, unfairness, discrimination and contractual hanky panky and jiggery-pokery suffered down Sevcoside way the next Court action that is actually raised by them will be the first.
With the amount of Blue Pounds which must be being spent on legal expenses I would have thought that just for a change they would have a wee go at being the Pursuers.
LUGOSI 17th January 2016 at 11:09 pm #
…
Care has to be taken that all the on the field activity doesn’t distract from the core business; litigation…
==========================
Absolutely!
And with cost cutting being the order of the day down Govan way…well, erm…you would think that TRFC should consider opening their own in-house legal department / function… 😉
According to a tweeter last night the figures should be as follows
Seems more realistic but still …
Keith Jackson saying this morning Rangers will spend the guts of £1M on two players this week. I assume because Keith is so close to the Ibrox board his information will be factually correct. He has no history whatsover of putting out comforting soundbites on behalf of the Ibrox club.
UTH
Not exactly a Kings Ransom,see what I did there,
but at least that’s another word added the Ibrox chatter box,”guts”,nice one Keef,ransom last week guts this week,what will it be next week,admini ,better not get ahead of ourselves.
Some Championship penalty stats from this season:
Sevco Rangers score 4.08 non-penalty goals for every penalty they have been awarded.
For Falkirk and Hibs the figures are 11.33 and 10.33 respectively.
For the other seven clubs combined the figure is 11.5, and for all the clubs in the division except Sevco Rangers it is 11.50.
Food for thought or just paranoia/obsession?
upthehoops 18th January 2016 at 7:13 am #Keith Jackson saying this morning Rangers will spend the guts of £1M on two players this week. I assume because Keith is so close to the Ibrox board his information will be factually correct. He has no history whatsover of putting out comforting soundbites on behalf of the Ibrox club.
____________
I wonder if the ‘guts’ of this £1m will be proportional to the ‘guts’ of the £8m that Jackson was telling us King had put into the club, just the other day!
I’m no expert in human anatomy, but let’s say the guts take up about one fifth of our bodies; that might equare to around £200,000 of this £1m – wasn’t that put out in some rag(s) as the top offer TRFC had made for O’Halloran? For the record, I do imagine the guts as taking up much less of the human body, or any other animal’s body, than one fifth.
I do hope that, as soon as the transer window closes, Keith Jackson compares the amount his team actually spends with an amount of £1m, and then explains his definition of ‘guts’!
I assumed that the figure 1000000 was being used as a stylised gastro-intestinal tract… with the ‘1’ being the mouth and the ‘0’ representing the rest (aka ‘the guts’)
Some more of Radar’s ramblings in the Record this morning-
Neutered with low self esteem? I don’t recognise rhat at all, in fact the absence of any flavour of Rangers from the top division seems to me to have improved the health of the game considerably.
But then I’m not Scotland’s top award winning sports journalist, so what do I know?
Just for some balance on the penalty kick thing.
Inside The SPFL @AgentScotland 13h13 hours agoThere has been 50 Penalty Kick’s awarded in the #SPFL Premiership so far in 2015-16
Top 3
1. Hearts – 11
2. Aberdeen – 6
3. Dundee Utd – 6
James Doleman @jamesdoleman 15m15 minutes ago
No hearing today in case of Sports Direct V Dave King. Postponed to 1 February.
Oduwa off back to his club,oh dear Keef,guts are being spilled all over the place
neepheid 18th January 2016 at 9:08 am
________________________________________________
Talk about damning Scottish football with faint praise. After some of the stuff KJ has written/copied and pasted over the last few years he’s the one who should’ve been neutered and robbed of any self-esteem. Sadly it continues to be off the radar.
I’ll never get tired of using that phrase but I get the impression it’s become a bit of a badge of honour for our Keith. With that standard of writing and insight he must surely have an eye on his own personal 9 in a row. He’s the best we’ve got? Stroll on.