I am privileged to have the chance to post a “guest” article on TSFM. As we get used to the lights being turned out, even temporarily, on RTC, we have a new forum for analysing the various issues which concern supporters of Scottish football.
It is undoubtedly the case that most of these issues involve the Rangers FC, either directly or indirectly, together with their interaction with the governing bodies of Scottish football.
One of the matters mentioned on “The List” page here is the Nimmo Smith report. I try to answer the question about what happened to it below, and note the relevance its apparent disappearance has for the soon to convene SPL Independent Commission.
I would encourage anyone who wants to do so to contribute posts for publication to TSFM.
RTC created from nothing a vibrant community looking at serious and complex issues of finance, law and corporate governance with a huge range of expertise, and not a little humour. TSFM can build on that legacy for the good of football in Scotland, and hopefully to the betterment of our media.
Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?
On 21st February 2012 the SFA announced that it had appointed retired judge Lord Nimmo Smith to chair an independent inquiry into Rangers FC. His panel comprised Professor Niall Lothian, Past President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland; Bob Downes, former Director of BT and now Deputy Chairman of the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, and Stewart Regan, CEO of the SFA.
The Inquiry was commissioned to investigate the potential breach of a number of SFA Articles of Association and to present its findings to the SFA Board within two weeks. Article 62.2 (q) of the SFA Articles of Association allows the SFA Board to appoint “a commission … to attend to and/or determine any matter(s) referred to it by the Board.”
Stewart Regan was quoted saying: “I am delighted Lord Nimmo Smith has agreed to Chair the Independent Inquiry. I am certain the experience contained within the panel will enable us to achieve more clarity on the situation regarding Rangers FC. There will be no further comment on the investigation until it is complete and its findings presented to the Board.”
One wonders about the use of the word “independent”, bearing in mind that one of the members was the CEO of the commissioning body, and on the Board which would consider it once prepared.
On 2nd March Mr Regan had more to say, although the investigation was not yet complete.
“We are now in the final stages of our independent inquiry into the situation concerning Rangers FC. The report by The Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith is expected to be completed next week and will go to a Special Board Meeting for consideration. It would be inappropriate to make any further comment at this stage in relation to the details gleaned from the inquiry, the potential contents of the report or any possible sanctions.
On 8th March the Special Board Meeting took place to consider the Nimmo Smith Report. Mr Regan commented:-
“I can confirm that the Scottish FA convened a Special Board Meeting at Hampden Park today to discuss the findings of the Independent Inquiry into Rangers FC, prepared by the Chair, The Right Honourable Lord William Nimmo Smith.
“Principally, it is the belief of the Board, taking into account the prima facie evidence presented today, that Mr Craig Whyte is not considered to be a Fit and Proper person to hold a position within Association Football.
“The report submitted by Lord Nimmo Smith, having been considered fully by the Board, highlights a number of other potential rule breaches by the club and its owner. The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.
As such, the report’s contents will not be published at this time. Nevertheless, I can confirm that the club is facing a charge of bringing the game into disrepute.”
On 24th April Mr Regan, following the verdict of the Judicial Panel, said the following:-
“It was entirely right that the original inquiry into Rangers FC and Craig Whyte was conducted independently and chaired by the Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith. These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal, who returned their verdict last night.”
That all seems clear. Lord Nimmo Smith, with the help of distinguished people like Mr Regan, carried out a quick but thorough investigation, and the results were put to the Judicial Panel for consideration.
However Gary Allan QC, who chaired the Panel, made the following comment on page 59 of the Panel’s written decision.
“It is remarkable that throughout the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal Process there has been repeated, and regrettably wholly misconceived reference to the Report of Lord Nimmo Smith. For the avoidance of any doubt, the Judicial Panel hearing this disciplinary matter was at no time presented with the report, as evidence or otherwise, nor was it presented with any of its findings. No member of the Tribunal has had sight of it. The report was not mentioned by any party at any time in the course of the proceedings. The determinations which were reached, therefore, were reached entirely independently of any view at which any other person, however senior or eminent, may have arrived in fulfilment of his remit prior to the disciplinary hearing.”
How can the Chair of the Panel deny having seen a document which, according to one of the people who sat on the independent committee, was presented to them?
The answer is two-fold.
Firstly, at pages 2 to 3 of the Judicial Panel decision, the procedural nuts and bolts of the case are discussed:-
“The Tribunal … directed that … it would proceed to hear the evidence and submissions and proceed to Determinations in relation to the complaints against both Rangers FC and Mr Whyte.
The Tribunal … noted that … it would proceed on the basis that there was an absolute denial on (Mr Whyte’s) part of each element of the alleged breach of the rules in all its particulars.
The Tribunal directed that accordingly, and notwithstanding the fact that in its written responses Rangers FC in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules, … the Tribunal would require to establish a clear factual basis for its Determination of both any alleged breaches and, if applicable, any sanction against either or both Rangers FC or Mr Whyte. … The commission and the circumstances of the alleged breaches would therefore require to be established by the leading of evidence before the Tribunal …
A discussion in relation to the procedure to be adopted took place. It was agreed that the Compliance Officer Mr Lunny would lead evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material but would lead no witnesses, and would invite the Tribunal to accept the evidence in that form as provided in the Judicial Panel Protocol. Mr McLaughlin for Rangers FC, standing its position on the complaints contained in the written response previously submitted had neither issues with that proposal nor any other objection to the procedure which would be adopted. An opportunity would then be afforded to Rangers FC to lead evidence and make submissions as Mr McLaughlin on its behalf saw fit. Mr McLaughlin intimated that he would be likely to lead evidence from four witnesses previously intimated to the Compliance Officer and the Tribunal in terms of the Judicial Panel Protocol.”
At the hearing the positions of Rangers FC and of Mr Whyte were totally at odds. Mr Whyte did not appear nor lodge any substantive reply. He denied everything. On the other hand, Rangers FC “in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules”. As the Panel determined, they needed to be satisfied of the right verdict based on the evidence, but as the “prosecution case” was generally admitted, there was less rigour about this than if, for example, Mr Whyte had attended and denied the charges.
If Mr Whyte had appeared to deny the allegations, or if Rangers FC had disputed them, then evidence would have had to come from witnesses, who could have been cross-examined. In that event it would not have been sufficient to present the Nimmo Smith report, because, for all his experience, expertise and eminence, he is not guaranteed to be infallible.
One important principle in judicial and quasi-judicial procedure is the “Best Evidence rule”. If possible, original documents should be produced, rather than copies. Items of physical evidence should be brought to the court, rather than photographs of it. Witnesses should give evidence rather than having witness statements provided to the hearing.
This, I think, provides part of the explanation for the apparently mysterious absence of the Nimmo Smith Report.
The facts of the case had been admitted by the only party who attended the hearing, namely Rangers FC. Therefore Mr Lunny led “evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material”. The Panel made 108 separate “findings in fact” derived from the evidence he put forward and that of Rangers FC.
Where Lord Nimmo Smith’s committee had, for example, analysed documents and offered a conclusion upon their import, the documents would be evidence but His Lordship’s conclusion would not. Similarly where a witness had been interviewed by the Nimmo Smith commission, or provided a statement, the former judge’s views on that would not be evidence, but the witness statement would be.
Mr Lunny, the Compliance Officer, was acting as prosecutor. Effectively Lord Nimmo Smith played the role of a senior detective co-ordinating an investigation, but not actually obtaining any evidence himself. In a criminal trial, where the officer in charge of the investigation has taken no part in the accumulation of the evidence, then their relevance as a witness is very small at best. It is up to the judge or the jury to decide what the totality of evidence means as far as guilt or innocence is concerned.
Therefore whilst I am sure that Lord Nimmo Smith’s report was on Mr Lunny’s table as he went through his presentation, ticking off the relevant parts as he led the primary evidence, the Report itself was not “relevant” evidence for the Panel. It is likely that, in discussion prior to the hearing, Mr Lunny and the solicitor for Rangers FC agreed whether the Nimmo Smith report would be used or not.
Mr Regan said prior to the Panel sitting “The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.“ The presentation of the case of course was independent of him, and whilst the Report would have formed the basis for the charges laid against Rangers FC and Mr Whyte, it was not evidence itself, as agreed between the parties.
The second aspect which accords with this explanation is the precise phrase used by Mr Regan. He said, after the decision, “These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal.”
He did not say that the report was presented, rather that the findings were. As the findings would form the basis for the “charges” admitted by Rangers FC, then to that extent the Nimmo Smith report played a part in the proceedings.
This issue has relevance now for the forthcoming SPL proceedings involving player payments and registrations which might have broken the rules. To great clamour and consternation from Ibrox direction, Harper MacLeod, the widely respected and highly rated form of solicitors, have carried out an investigation for the SPL into Rangers FC.
Mr Green has made clear that, as far as possible, the case will be fought, and no past titles will be stripped if he can do anything about it. Expect calls for the Harper MacLeod report to be produced.
However, it is in exactly the same position as the Nimmo Smith report was, except this time the accused is not accepting guilt. In that case, the relevant documents and witnesses will need to attend for scrutiny and examination.
On the basis that the First Tier Tax Tribunal, which looked at different but related issues, took many days to conclude, it is highly likely that the SPL case will not have a quick conclusion.
As a final aside, I must compliment Mr Green. All of the media speculation about punishment in the event that the independent commission find guilt on the part of Rangers repeats the mantra from Ibrox that the most severe penalty, namely stripping of titles, is the aim of the SPL.
I suspect that the SPL might believe that too now, on the basis that something which the club and the fans oppose so vigorously must be a draconian penalty.
But, of all of the various penalties listed, stripping titles would not cost the Rangers FC a single penny. The issue has already seen the supporters unite behind their team. Even if the commission finds the case proven, and as a result Rangers lose some of their historic titles, this will be seen by the Ibrox faithful as yet more treachery by the football authorities. Bearing in mind that the SPL rules allow various penalties, including the power to expel the club, impose unlimited fines and place a registration embargo on the club, altering the history books is the best thing for Rangers as a business, rather than a penalty which affects them just now.
Posted by Paul McConville – www.scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com
Sorry about Pantheon and Muppets, I think most bloggers will be able to figur it out
ExiledCelt says:
August 13, 2012 at 18:21
3 2 Rate This
Domaine Jessiaume says:
August 13, 2012 at 18:12
The source is the agreement, or the agreement is the source.
Take it or leave it mate
****************
So this means anyoen can post nonsense and when asked for the source say take it or leave it.
I guess if this is the MO for the website we can close the doors and switch the light out……
============================
Well, that tends to be the deal with internet forums, I’m afraid, fella.
The only recourse you have is to check what someone has said before and whether it turns out to be largely correct or whether they are pursuing an agenda of some sort.
Alternatively, you can just say something posted by someone you do not know is “nonsense” because you have decided so. That too is your prerogative on the internet.
One of the hallmarks of the comments section of RTC and, I hope, this blog is the fact that posters take one another at face value until they prove themselves to either agenda-driven or impervious to reasonable argument. People disagree often, but my position on this cannot change because the source is primary, so I am afraid you either accept what I say or you do not.
In the scheme of things, whether you or anyone else believes Southampton paid £500,000 to Sevco for Davis, doesn’t matter a whole lot.
ExiledCelt says:
August 13, 2012 at 18:21
———————————–
EC, you’re wasting your time and effort here.
DJ goes on about the “five way agreement” as if it were as well read as, say this blog, But of course no one has seen it except him.
That and the other bee in his blue bonnet, Sevco plc, the only AIM flotation in history to be planned in secret and to be executed with less than 12 weeks planning, at a cost to Sevco of £1M+ in professional fees, and all at a time when the economic climate is so bad even £3BN companies are considering pulling out of proposed AIM floats.
You’d think Charles Green might have more important things to worry about, like getting the 3 billionaire would-be investors on board….or making sure Sevco can trade past the end of October.
BRTH@1927
£688.31 to Slaters Menswear.Charlie’s tin flutes?(no pun intended)
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
August 13, 2012 at 19:27
Can someone remind me why Rangers PLC (IA) owe £550 to Hutchesons Grammar? Were they paying someone’s school fees? I had forgotten just how odd some of that creditors list reads.
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Elocution and public speaking lessons for Bomber Brown?
47m Hotapethinks @Hotapethinks
@rangerstaxcase: Yes. It was Blair Morgan- his agent. Point: if RFC paid interest on delayed EBT payments= proof of contractual obligation.”
48m Hotapethinks @Hotapethinks
“@daviepam: @rangerstaxcase @WheresTheBaw Alex McLeish accountant wrote to HMRC asking about bank interest on a missed payment”
51m Hotapethinks @Hotapethinks
@rangerstaxcase: “McLeish’s agent also said: “terms of contract between Alex & club now breached by delayed EBT payment.”
An interesting series of tweets. Looks like RTC is not the only one with inside info on this.
you will all remember that some clubs OWE RFC(ia) money? (i.e. transfer fee payments)
The figure was reported as £3.8M by Duff & Phelps.
I am getting concerned that Sevco might bank these cheques as they arrive over the next few years (upto May 2014 was the final payment due) – instead of the money going to the Creditors pot. This would be illegal.
On a seperate point, could any of the Scottish clubs who allegedly received their money today please confirm this is so? Charles Green saying something doesn’t make it true. But my real interest in these payments is…. what name was on the cheque? The Rangers? Rangers? what bank did it come from?
if the SFA refused to act as a clearing bank (as reported), did the SFA send some of the money owed to Rangers(ia) for finishing 2nd last season to The Rangers? but surely that money is owed to ALL creditors?
Or did the SFA send some money to all of the clubs or all of the money to some clubs and The Rangers sent the rest of the money to other clubs? i.e. did Hearts get two different cheques today or one and who was it from?
incredibleadamspark says:
August 13, 2012 at 10:13
‘I don’t think the selection of Ian Black warrants this level of debate ..
—–
Well, apart from the legitimacy of debating Black’s footballing merits as opposed to those of other possible contenders for a place in the national squad, you must remember that this blog is intensely aware of the possibility ( some would say, the certainty) that the blazers in the SFA have leaned on Levein because they are absolutely determind to keep the former Ramgers fans onside.
A Scotland team without representation from Ibrox? Unheard of.
And Peter Houston’s pathetic attempt ,on Sportsound this evening, to reconcile Levein’s comments on Wallace with the guff about Black was cringe-making.
The stench of sulphur was wafting over the air-waves enough to make me think I had been served a dozen rotten eggs.
And what has Levein had to say for himself?
slimshady61 says:
August 13, 2012 at 19:39
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So I’ve seen the agreement, he hasn’t, but he’s wasting time and effort telling me what is and is not contained in it?
Like I said earlier, we all must decide if someone has an agenda and judge for ourselves.
In Slim’s case, he’s just annoyed that I did not defer to him a couple of weeks ago, even though I said then that I agreed with much of what he said about the share float..
ExiledCelt has decided something didn’t happen re the Davis transfer, and is merrily painting himself into a corner over it, quite unnecessarily.
As for “bee in my blue bonnet”, where to start with that? Posting information which may or may not be of general interest is a “bee in my blue bonnet” because I disagree with you?
I have previously told you I am a Celtic fan, not that that should matter, so are you calling me a liar?
The floor is yours.
incredibleadamspark says:
August 13, 2012 at 10:13
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
you’re not the real guy by any chance are you? there’s an interview with the writer of the above named book in The Herald today saying he is sort of not a Rangers fan anymore just like you!
you’re allowed your anonymity on here of course, so don’t feel pressured, – but I was just wondering!
Maybe its time we changed tack and headed straight into the wind
We keep saying we need to bring those responsible to account ,we have an advantage over other forums in that we do have the ear of credible journalists . Alex Tomo Mark Daly and Stewart Cosgrove should be demanding an open interview with Regan ,Doncaster and Ogilvie
to answer an array of questions relevant to their jobs. Is it too much to ask that these well paid men (who are paid for by the fans) account for decisions made and explain why others are avoided which contravene their own rule book .
The questions have avoided being asked by the majority of the MSM , are interviews being denied? Just who the hell do these people think they are !! Drag them out of their bunker if need be ,this cowering silence can and should not continue, we do have a right to know and they have an obligation to explain .
A 1 hour meeting of minds between journalistsrespected.com and RTC to select the questionaire and 60 minutes with the 3 little pigs to hear them squeal in response is going for the jugular . Its time to throw down the gauntlet , a refusal to pick it up will speak volumes
Calling Cosgrove ,calling Cosgrove ,come in Cosgrove -over
test
Scotland call-up for Rangers’ Ian Black to face Australia raises
eyebrows
By Ewing Grahame Last Updated: 7:27PM BST 13/08/2012
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/scotland/9473198/.html
Domaine Jessiaume says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:03
2 1 i Rate This
slimshady61 says:
August 13, 2012 at 19:39
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Slim and Exiled Celt, I would just ignore. This guy clearly is provocateur who doesn’t discuss but seeks to disrupt and annoy. There are a few like that – very boring.
Lord Wobbly says:
August 13, 2012 at 00:33
Ex-Collyer Bristow partner Withey to join Rangers trial as defendant.
http://m.thelawyer.com/1013882.article?mobilesite=enabled
.
Well spotted Lord W! – thought worth a re-mention from the night shift.
This and the follow through article from 30 April are good refreshers + the readers’ comments.
Some legal line-up: They say “follow the money” – while quite not in the original spirit of the phrase – I count 2 QCs, 14 assorted lawyers and 12 Legal + 1 IPs firm. That’s just the D+P/CB case. Blimey!
Was there not something a few weeks ago about the Davies deal that they had agreed a sell on clause that Sevco would benefit out of this and it was not about a transfer fee.
Webster, are you serious? the same club, where have you been hiding, Of course it’s Not the same club.I have no objections whatsoever to a difference of opinion, in fact it’s better that we dont all sing from the same hymn sheet.But to even suggest that they are the same club is to fly in the face of All the Evidence.How the Hell did you come to that conclusion?.
One of the conditions of the membership was that the new
company paid off the original club’s football debts of about
£3million, a third of which was owed to Scottish rivals.
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/charles-green-says-rangers-do-not-owe-other-clubs-a-penny-as-ally-mccoist-takes-pair-on-trial-1-2465428
AS St Etienne, France £252,212.39
Arsenal Football Club £136,560
Chelsea FC £238,345.43
Manchester City FC £328,248.71
Nordic Scouting, Oslo £20,000 (football debt?)
SK Rapid, Austria £1,011,763.44
The Scottish Football League £3,859.92
Celtic FC £40,337
Dundee United FC £65,981.49
Dunfermline Athletic FC £83,370.13
Heart of Midlothian FC £800,000
Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC £39,805
SPL £22,500
SFA (£)11,089.04
And Charlie is claiming to have paid over £500k? With £300k due to Hearts next July. What about the other approx £2.8m?
Webster says
So Sevco have been hoping that – (me being a bit slow on the uptake)
1 No non football creditors of RFC would have a claim on Sevco for RFC debts after the CVA failed, creditors would wait for liquidation, and BDO would take time to start liquidation (with perhaps taking years to achieve anything)
2 the switcheroo for footballing reasons from RFC to TRFC as the same entity (being required as the only possible way to gain entry to the league) would mean they would settle footballing debts ( sometime, never) as a small price to pay
3 the SFA and MSM would collude with confusing the issues as required (covered by any secret stuff at the negotiations for the five way agreement). We have seen the results of this collusion even if there weren’t any confidential stuff.
All this would give the investors and behind the scenes players the time to make their profits on their investments, and painfully for RFC fans, leaving them again at risk of seeing their club collapse.
But, it seems that TRFC may not paying the football debts completely, (any non Scottish ones been paid?) and the footballing switcheroo may have raised the prospect of non football creditors calling, or being encouraged to by posters on this site. As Webster says, it would only take one creditor to force the issue. If its the same company, they pay the debts and/or risk collapse, or if not, and are proven to be a different entity, hopefully the SFA / UEFA / FIFA will look again at the shenanigans perpetrated by the big stinky cheeses running our game. (Mr Green- In Switzerland of course they are known as les grande fromages malodorants).
Both these issues will work against the plan eventually. Even worse, the more succesful the switcheroo, the more likely the creditors and legislators abroad will be having a look at what’s going on.
With regards to the monies outstanding to Strathclyde Police I would hope that they are charging Sevco in advance for policing now.
As games at Ibrox now seem to be pay at the gate as well as season tickets how do they know how many police are required?
I assume the police just send along the maximum required as per yesteryear and charge accordingly.
With regards to D&P selling the assets to Chas Green for what, most now accept, was way below market value. Craig Whyte was banned from being a director for seven years for putting assets out of the reach of creditors.
This sounds like exactly the same thing.
D&P were CW’s choice and they seemed to have performed their duties not to the creditors but to the new would be owners who I now think have a definite link back to CW.
Finally their has been much discussion with regards to the pheonix company.
Can the fact that Sevco have paid footballing debt not tie them back to the oldco and bring HMRC back into play. Surely HMRC would be interested to know that certain creditors have been paid in full from a new club, assuming the identity of the dead club, who owe them millions.
As a condition of receiving Rangers’ membership of the Scottish FA, Green’s company had to agree to settle all outstanding debts to other Scottish clubs and teams around Europe still owed money.
GAIS, Orebro, St Etienne, Arsenal, Chelsea, FK Senica, Manchester City, Palermo and Rapid Vienna remain to be paid a combined total of circa £2.5m.
http://m.stv.tv/sport/football/149333-rangers-settle-500000-debt-to-celtic-hearts-and-scottish-fa/
Lord Wobbly @ 20:51
Yet again, your Lordship, it would appear the so called powers that be say one thing, do another, and then bend rules to suit Sevco
You can be absolutely certain, that the only club who will not be inconvenienced in any way by the authorities is Sevco
Slim,Exiled Celt, Hector – aren,t you being a tad harsh on Domaine J here ? I’ve looked through previous posts of his and whilst some of the content can’t be verified yet from what is in the public domain, neither has any of it been proved to be wide of the mark and some of it has been bang on the money.
As for his source, I recall some time ago he indicated it was a professional person whose P45 would be in the post if he was to be fingered as the source of confidential information – let’s leave to one side whether it should be confidential – ie the contents of the 5 way agreement.
SLB
Lord Wobbly says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:43
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Scottish Football League £3,859.92
Celtic FC £40,337
Dundee United FC £65,981.49
Dunfermline Athletic FC £83,370.13
Heart of Midlothian FC £800,000
Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC £39,805
SPL £22,500
SFA (£)11,089.04
All paid if you believe Chucky – well all but the outstanding £500K as the last payment for Wallace – so the figures do stack up (almost) with his claim that he’s parted with £500K to settle all outstanding Scottish football debts.
AS St Etienne, France £252,212.39
Arsenal Football Club £136,560
Chelsea FC £238,345.43
Manchester City FC £328,248.71
Nordic Scouting, Oslo £20,000 (football debt?)
SK Rapid, Austria £1,011,763.44
Not a bean of that paid to any of the above clubs. And does he seriously think that they’ll sit back and allow Ashley or anyone else to loan out to ZombieFC while they’re still waiting on their money? Does he think Rapid will give him any more time?
Yes but Green hasn’t claimed he paid £500,000. He was reported in the DR as paying £500,00 (sic) and we still don’t know what the true figure is. You’ll note that no figure has been mentioned in the subsequent “clarification” on the RFC website: http://www.rangers.co.uk/index.php/news/headlines/item/1731-scottish-football-debts-settled
” “Rangers” do not owe other Scottish clubs a penny”.
How very very noble Hughie Boy Green for whom “Opportunity knocks”!
Why no mention of the other football creditors Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Rapid Vienna, US Citta Di Palermo,et al, not to mention —-(and be most careful not to mention it, Chuckie Boy),—- the other ordinary non-football creditors, particularly, Shred- It -Glasgow— for whom you’ve got to feel huge sympathy after they shredded all the duplicate copies of the side letters ?!
Fortunately HMRC and/ or the player recipients of the “loans” still have the principal copies.
Fortunately also, my paisani at Citta di Palermo have a certain way with a horse’s head, and I have it on very good authority from my paisan sources, that they will be paying Mr CG a visit in the very near future. They will make him an offer he can’t refuse.
(Winky smiley face thing)
I believe Hutchie has or had a specialist TEFL unit, so maybe it was helping out recent arrivals with little or no English?
En attendant Hector says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:33
0 1 Rate This
Domaine Jessiaume says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:03
2 1 i Rate This
slimshady61 says:
August 13, 2012 at 19:39
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Slim and Exiled Celt, I would just ignore. This guy clearly is provocateur who doesn’t discuss but seeks to disrupt and annoy. There are a few like that – very boring.
==================
I do not understand that comment. All I have ever done is provide information some of which people don’t like. I can’t help that. I do expect people to deal with it maturely though.
Lord Wobbly@20.43,
Lord Wobbly, you are slipping. You missed US Citta Di Palermo–at least initially–and I don’t think you wanted to do that??
DJ, Slim, EC
Can we give it a rest guys? For what it’s worth, I think we should all be happy to have people offering information for the rest to ponder. I think that ultmately, the RTC blog was pretty good at sifting the wheat from the chaff.I hope we can be as effective.
Argue about the info by all means, but let’s not get drawn into a slanging match.
I’ve been invloved in disagreements like this myself, so I know how tempting it is to try to get the last word. Can we agree just to disagree please and leave out any personal criticism?
For the record, if a comment looks like trolling, I try to remove it so others can’t respond. If anyone has any observations about moderation, please post to the admin page.
For me DJ, could you outline just exactly what this five-way agreement is? I’ve spent so much time recently chasing trolls and admin issues, it passed me by.
Okay, you win. I’m out.
Evening, i seem to recall the old rangers might have trained the odd time at Hutchie but that was years ago, they couldn’t owe anything from then, could they?
I like the cut of websters gib here…if TRFC Ltd c2012 are to be treated by all as if they are the same club…then they should take on all RFC Plcs (IA) football debt responsibilities. As my grannie says, you can’t have your cake and eat it 🙂
F F & RM have just noticed that you can pay into ibrokes on a game to game basis for £5.00 cheaper per game than a season book would cost
Sixlargebeers says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:02
0 0 i
He has a fine taste in wine so maybe should give some ground.
the Don Dionisio says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:18
1 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly@20.43,
Lord Wobbly, you are slipping. You missed US Citta Di Palermo–at least initially–and I don’t think you wanted to do that??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Forgive me Godfather….
TSFM says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:21
====================
I had not seen this when I posted “I’m out.” and my 21.22 was not a response to yours at 21.21.
Rather a response to Exiled Celt, Slim and En Attendant Hector that I was drawing a line and not arguing any more.
Webster says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:32
I stick to the line that they are not the same club, but if they are being finessed into the same Rangers as were around last season, then, as I suggested yesterday, they should be down 10 points for still being in administration. I’m with Webster’s granny…
This “holding Company” is what went into administration soon to be liquidation nonsense is interesting. Are we to take it that all those previous rangers share holders were specifically rangers share holders and not “holding company” share holders? Was someone such as Andy Cameron simply a share holder in only the rangers part and not the “holding company” ? I don’t think so. But for avoidance of doubt if these shareholders were in fact rangers shareholders and not “holding company” share holders then the problem, for them at least is, solved. Their shareholding has simply transferred to newco rangers. They are still shareholders in new rangers. Aren’t they ? Or are their shares worth no more than the piece of paper they are printed on because the company they held shares in was one and the same rangers that will soon be liquidated along with their shares. They will cease to exist as will any value they may have had.
Isn’t amazing how some people rationalize their views to suit what they really need to be true ?
Much the same was as willie and billy etc, on SSB tonight, rationalized a 3rd division player suddenly managing to find himself in the Scotland squad. Get a grip lads. A player, no matter his skills, cannot be up to international standard, even the standard Scotland play to, if he is playing against 4th tier part time players. Can anyone come up with an example of any other international team who selects from their 4th tier division ? I can’t imagine Lee Westwood would be picked for the Ryder Cup if he was just playing in my club medal every week. But hey ho, maybe he would.
Jacko.
F.M. says:
August 13, 2012 at 18:38
18 1 Rate This
You may have heard that STV will be screening live Scottish football games starting with the Celtic, Helsingborg game. Just thought I would post these instructions for tuning your Sky box to receive STV if you don’t live in Scotland.
very many thanks – worked a treat – now for next week!
Webster@ 21.18.pm. I did read your post carefully,still makes no difference.They may be called the same club by people,they may want to be the same,they may be getting treated the same, but they are Not the same. Being treated the same as before does not alter the truth.
Remember, “If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth”.
This deliberate deception has been used to sell ST’s,and to make Yorkie one of the people,no amount of bullsh^t can change the Facts.
By the way, for me this is all about perception,the more people like yourself who put forward the idea that they are one and the same the more people will begin to lose interest in the truth.
I have only read one of your posts,and I only disagree with the comment about being the same club.
Domaine Jessiaume says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:22
0 1 Rate This
Okay, you win. I’m out.
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This saddens me, because I see it a victory for the Trolls, and I don’t mean that anyone involved in this little spat is a Troll, very far from it. All of you have made valuable contributions to this blog and to its predecessor.
Can’t we disagree, even fundamentally, without it getting personal? Let’s save the rage for those that deserve it, the list is long enough, after all, real Trolls, the custodians of Scottish football, the crooks from the big hoose, the MSM, there’s just so many to go at, how about we save it for them?
“A house divided against itself cannot stand” said one Abraham Lincoln. And that doesn’t mean we all have to agree with, or even like, each other. But we have a common purpose, which I think is an important purpose. The more we lose respect for each other, the less respect this forum will command in the wider world. And the more the “dark side” will rejoice.
Sermon over for tonight.
jammy dodger@21 50pm. Well said.
Actually Charlie Green Shield Stamps (remember them?) is playing an interesting game. On the one hand, i.e. the hand that takes the money, the peepil are still… the peepil.
But… he’s also saying that he’s paying debts that aren’t his! That’s a clear demarcation. This IS a new club. Same as the old club in a quantum physics kind of way.
Anyway Rapid Vienna, who, lest we forget were against the CVA, shall, I feel, be instructing lawyers anytime soon. Probably to charge me with 5, count em, excellently placed commas in one sentence.
jammy dodger @ 21:50
Got to say I agree with you
We all take the facts RTC shares with us at face value, without demanding proof
It is quite possible that other posters, like DJ have access to facts, which he may, because of reasons of confidentiality, be unable to prove to other peoples’ satisfaction
Every little scrap of information that comes our way, whatever the source, is another bullet that can be used in the real fight
Until the information is proved wrong, let’s keep an open mind, and stop squabbling amongst ourselves
sixlargebeers@21.02,
……………..and remember what happened to Carlo after he fingered Sonny to Barzini’s people…..??
Sorry if this has already been answered, but what work was MIM doing for CW or RFC(IA), as in the creditors list we have Premier Property Group owed a substantial amount of money.
The Premier Property Group is an established commercial property development and investment company with offices in Edinburgh and Leeds.
A subsidiary of Murray International Holdings, PPG was formed as a stand-alone company to maximise value within the Parent Group’s property portfolio. PPG has grown to become a recognised player in the commercial property sector.
Since 1990, we have developed over two million square feet of principally office and industrial space. PPG delivers high quality developments focusing on design, flexibility and longevity.
We also have an extensive land bank across the UK, particularly in Yorkshire.
PPG’s investment portfolio covers office,
industrial and retail throughout the UK.
For more information on PPG, visit our
dedicated web site at
http://www.ppg.co.uk
Anyone heard the rumours that Dundee Utd are ‘apparently’ about to announce their administration ?
A guy who normally I trust at work, said he got this news first hand from a colleague who is pretty much in the know about all things DUtd ! I hope it is a bit of spin from outcast bears !
Also spoke to supporter of team in blue (SEVCO / RFC/ TRFC) today and after he informed me of Rangers still being alive and well (albeit in Div 3) asked him how the fans now percieve Bomber and his hordes who attended the Ibrox Address the other week. What about not buying season books, getting the title deeds, taking money from pensioners, buying pies, for their feckin team etc
He didn’t have an answer… does any one know what happened to that John Brown, public face of Rangers (ia) and his loyal bunch . Where are the deeds, who owns Ibrox, who are these people…?? Ally ?? Jabba?? Anyone ??
jammy dodger says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:50
Well said, Jammy.
grocer @ 22:11
Doubt that there is any truth in this “rumour”
They could sell Russell and MacKay-Steven if things were that bad
TSFM says: August 13, 2012 at 21:21
For me DJ, could you outline just exactly what this five-way agreement is? I’ve spent so much time recently chasing trolls and admin issues, it passed me by.
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TSFM – The five way agreement was the discussion between the SFA, SPL, SFL, RFC(IA) and Sevco that would see Sevco being given permission to transfer RFC’s SFA membership and gain admission to the SFL, in return for acceptance of the payment of footballing debts, the transfer embargo, future sanctions and an undertaking not to go to the law courts.
DJ was pretty well on the ball on that one before it became public knowledge, but correspondingly inaccurate in a claim that the “dual contracts” investigation would be dropped. I had a difference of opinion with DJ on the 2nd point.
So you pays your money and take your chance on whether or not to take his word.
dellbell67 says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:26
F F & RM have just noticed that you can pay into ibrokes on a game to game basis for £5.00 cheaper per game than a season book would cost
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if only you were the MSM , you could have informed us that this was the real reason the loyal bears hadn’t purchased season books. looks like a bargain although if you are the pensioner who was robbed by Bomber Brown for £120 season book money , you wouldn’t even have money to pay at the cheaper rate. Suppose serves him right for getting in with a bad crowd .
The Scottish Public Services Ombudsman
ask@spso.org.uk
If anyone wants to pursue Webster’s suggestion, this organisation might be helpful.
However, two things, you need to make a complaint to the original agency first, and there is a one year time limit.
The public services from the D&P list would be
Glasgow City Council
Culture & Sport Glasgow (now Glasgow Life)
City of Edinburgh Council
Renfrewshire Council
Strathclyde Police
Scottish Ambulance Service
And possibly North Glasgow College, although the Scottish Further Education Funding Council might be involved here.
Anyone living in those catchment areas should write, and should get an answer within a month.
As Webster suggests, these organisations are obliged to attempt to recover funds due to them, and the SPSO would be obliged to investigate a complaint.
Being ex local authority and having witnessed many a senior management panic over awkward correspondence, it might also be useful to copy in your local cooncillor and or MSP, as even if they mightn’t take any notice, the management will worry in case they do.
Any takers?
sarantseville says:
August 13, 2012 at 22:16
He didn’t have an answer… does any one know what happened to that John Brown, public face of Rangers (ia) and his loyal bunch . Where are the deeds, who owns Ibrox, who are these people…?? Ally ?? Jabba?? Anyone ??
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It seems Charles Green had a word in Bomber’s shell-like ear, and suddenly Bomber’s struck dumb- along with Walter Smith, Ogilvie, etc, etc. Maybe Charlie found a locked filing cabinet in the big hoose when he took over, and when he had it opened- who knows? Does seem strange though, I thought it would take a lot to shut bomber up. He was cooking on gas a few weeks back, and actually asking some interesting and relevant questions (if you could make out what he was saying, that is).
It was on telly tonight that Dundee Utd.wanted ST holders to hand in vouchers if they were not going to the game,they want to try to sell them again.(cant remember which game ).
Rangers fans have 2 options. Give up football because the club is dead or cling on to Trfc. Most will choose the latter but we don’t have to. Corsica has cleared this up a number of times, rfc the club incorporated in 18??, a number of years after its first game and became rfc ltd, this means club and co are one entity and not a holding co with shareholders holding separate shares in a football club, years later the ltd co changed structure to a plc but still no separate shares in a football club, this plc went bust which means the club also went bust, when the liquidation process is complete then plc and club are gone forever.
Whatever deal went down regarding assets, goodwill or trading names misses the point that the incorporated ltd co shares of rfc 18?? will be liquidated.
The sfa and msm are also in the position of having to cling onto Trfc so there wont be any truth from these guys either.
Apologies to all for failure to research the incorporation year 18??
Apologies to Corsica if ive made an erse of your points.
Easyjambo, I think DJ had reported that it had been run up the flagpole as it were that the dual contracts investigation be dropped. Chuck was trying it on in other words and was told to GTF. Maybe he expressed it carelessly butDJ was merely reporting what had been put in print – bear in mind that e final agreement that was signed would have been to’ing and fro’ing between the lawyers and various clauses would be dropped and others accepted – normal negotiation in other words. As to why anyone should have been negotiating with Sevco instead off just telling them how it is, well that’s another story…..
john clarke says:
August 13, 2012 at 19:58
A Scotland team without representation from Ibrox? Unheard of.
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Not really. There were no Rangers players in the squad when it was first announced and Black was eventually called up after injuries. I just think that on certain occasions some people (and I’m guilty of this myself) look for foul play and conspiracy when there is none. I just don’t see an issue here.
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Itsagoal! says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:11
you’re not the real guy by any chance are you?
I’d like to be but sadly, no. Alan Bissett is a talented, intelligent and handsome guy. Words that even my own girlfriend would struggle to use when describing me.
Anyone have an idea when BDO move in to take over from D&P?
Lord Wobbly says:
August 13, 2012 at 20:21
12 0 i
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Scotland call-up for Rangers’ Ian Black to face Australia raises
eyebrows
By Ewing Grahame Last Updated: 7:27PM BST 13/08/2012
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/scotland/9473198/.html
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LW…thank you for the link.
Another good piece of concise journalism (not churnalism!) from Ewing Graeme in the continuing absence of Roddy Forsyth (remember him…the Ibrox debenture holder?)
“The player’s decision to stay with the phoenix club….”
“…Ian Black of The Rangers…”
Nice to see that some in the MSM still can differentiate between Oldco/Newco/Sevco/Phoenix Club.
Sixlargebeers says: August 13, 2012 at 22:35
This was DJ’s post re the dual contracts. I took issue with the “I hear” part, and DJ wrongly thought my problem was that I didn’t want to believe what he was saying.
PL, censorship? Why?
rab @ 22:33
Or to look at another way
All of those who had shares in RFC (IA) have now found out their shares were not in the club, but in the PLC
If the shares were in the club, they wouldn’t now be worthless, would they
PLC and club, one and the same, and they are now defunct
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/moira-gordon-no-kid-ever-dreamed-of-swapping-top-flight-for-the-lowest-tier-1-2463631
Good reading
Would a simple question to be asked of the SFA be: If TRFC win the Scottish Cup will this be recorded as TRFC’s first SC win or will it be added to RFC’s tally?
I seem to remember that the statement about ‘the debts’ (to other clubs) used the term ‘settled’ rather than ‘were paid in full’. Could it be that the clubs cut their losses? Where did any money come from? RFC (IA) couldn’t pay debts selectively – Hector would not allow this, I suggest, as this would be using other creditors money, including Hectors to buy their full licence to play. When RFC (IA) is finally liquidated, who will raise the issue of the legality of the name ‘Rangers’ being used by the new club? Whereas originally some newspapers referred to the new club by various titles, they now refer to them as ‘Rangers’. One has got used to the various Scottish Authorities deforming the rule books -but surely this cannot happen with the law of the land …. or can it? Will the rule of law only be enforced only with liquidation? Perhaps we are being impatient – perhaps things, such as ‘the name’, can only be challenged after liquidation. Where is Lord Hodge!? Any legal brains out there who can pontificate with authority?
Campsiejoe.
Or another nother way to look at it is, club and plc are separate so celtic plc can sell celtic football club and buy real madrid football club.
http://m.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/mo1ra-gordon-no-kid-ever-dreamed-of-swapping-top-flight-for-the-lowest-tier-1-2463631
Good reading.
Reposted. Change the 1 to an i in Mo1ra.
Celticbhoy.
Do teams get their sunday names inscribed on the cup, eg, heart of midlothian or hearts.
If its the former then a question could be asked of the sfa and sfl if The Rangers will be inscribed as opposed to rangers.
rab @ 23:04
True as they are separate, which wasn’t, and isn’t the case with RFC (IA)
Phoenix company fraud happens after company goes bankrupt and a second company (known as a phoenix company) is started up overnight with the same directors. Although this is perfectly legal, fraud is committed for example when the directors abuse the phoenix company arrangement and effect a pre-insolvency transfer of assets below market value or fail to account for VAT
Domaine Jessiaume says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:39
9 2 Rate This
TSFM says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:21
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I had not seen this when I posted “I’m out.” and my 21.22 was not a response to yours at 21.21.
Rather a response to Exiled Celt, Slim and En Attendant Hector that I was drawing a line and not arguing any more.
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I for one am glad to hear that.
Any truth in the rumour ive just started that a guy in a cheap suit is going round the doors, pretending to be stunney’s cousin and getting the paper money a day early.
Its a jungle out there.
It seem Black is getting the call up because of his performances last season.
I was once voted the best left back in amateur football in the 1980’s.
I have sent an e-mail to Craig, just in case anyone else pulls out.