Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?

Avatar ByElijah Baley

Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?

I am privileged to have the chance to post a “guest” article on TSFM. As we get used to the lights being turned out, even temporarily, on RTC, we have a new forum for analysing the various issues which concern supporters of Scottish football.

It is undoubtedly the case that most of these issues involve the Rangers FC, either directly or indirectly, together with their interaction with the governing bodies of Scottish football.

One of the matters mentioned on “The List” page here is the Nimmo Smith report. I try to answer the question about what happened to it below, and note the relevance its apparent disappearance has for the soon to convene SPL Independent Commission.

I would encourage anyone who wants to do so to contribute posts for publication to TSFM.

RTC created from nothing a vibrant community looking at serious and complex issues of finance, law and corporate governance with a huge range of expertise, and not a little humour. TSFM can build on that legacy for the good of football in Scotland, and hopefully to the betterment of our media.

Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?

On 21st February 2012 the SFA announced that it had appointed retired judge Lord Nimmo Smith to chair an independent inquiry into Rangers FC. His panel comprised Professor Niall Lothian, Past President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland; Bob Downes, former Director of BT and now Deputy Chairman of the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, and Stewart Regan, CEO of the SFA.

The Inquiry was commissioned to investigate the potential breach of a number of SFA Articles of Association and to present its findings to the SFA Board within two weeks. Article 62.2 (q) of the SFA Articles of Association allows the SFA Board to appoint “a commission … to attend to and/or determine any matter(s) referred to it by the Board.”

Stewart Regan was quoted saying: “I am delighted Lord Nimmo Smith has agreed to Chair the Independent Inquiry. I am certain the experience contained within the panel will enable us to achieve more clarity on the situation regarding Rangers FC. There will be no further comment on the investigation until it is complete and its findings presented to the Board.”

One wonders about the use of the word “independent”, bearing in mind that one of the members was the CEO of the commissioning body, and on the Board which would consider it once prepared.

On 2nd March Mr Regan had more to say, although the investigation was not yet complete.

“We are now in the final stages of our independent inquiry into the situation concerning Rangers FC. The report by The Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith is expected to be completed next week and will go to a Special Board Meeting for consideration. It would be inappropriate to make any further comment at this stage in relation to the details gleaned from the inquiry, the potential contents of the report or any possible sanctions.

On 8th March the Special Board Meeting took place to consider the Nimmo Smith Report. Mr Regan commented:-

“I can confirm that the Scottish FA convened a Special Board Meeting at Hampden Park today to discuss the findings of the Independent Inquiry into Rangers FC, prepared by the Chair, The Right Honourable Lord William Nimmo Smith. 

“Principally, it is the belief of the Board, taking into account the prima facie evidence presented today, that Mr Craig Whyte is not considered to be a Fit and Proper person to hold a position within Association Football.

“The report submitted by Lord Nimmo Smith, having been considered fully by the Board, highlights a number of other potential rule breaches by the club and its owner. The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.

As such, the report’s contents will not be published at this time. Nevertheless, I can confirm that the club is facing a charge of bringing the game into disrepute.”

On 24th April Mr Regan, following the verdict of the Judicial Panel, said the following:-

“It was entirely right that the original inquiry into Rangers FC and Craig Whyte was conducted independently and chaired by the Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith. These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal, who returned their verdict last night.”

That all seems clear. Lord Nimmo Smith, with the help of distinguished people like Mr Regan, carried out a quick but thorough investigation, and the results were put to the Judicial Panel for consideration.

However Gary Allan QC, who chaired the Panel, made the following comment on page 59 of the Panel’s written decision.

“It is remarkable that throughout the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal Process there has been repeated, and regrettably wholly misconceived reference to the Report of Lord Nimmo Smith. For the avoidance of any doubt, the Judicial Panel hearing this disciplinary matter was at no time presented with the report, as evidence or otherwise, nor was it presented with any of its findings. No member of the Tribunal has had sight of it. The report was not mentioned by any party at any time in the course of the proceedings. The determinations which were reached, therefore, were reached entirely independently of any view at which any other person, however senior or eminent, may have arrived in fulfilment of his remit prior to the disciplinary hearing.”

How can the Chair of the Panel deny having seen a document which, according to one of the people who sat on the independent committee, was presented to them?

The answer is two-fold.

Firstly, at pages 2 to 3 of the Judicial Panel decision, the procedural nuts and bolts of the case are discussed:-

“The Tribunal … directed that … it would proceed to hear the evidence and submissions and proceed to Determinations in relation to the complaints against both Rangers FC and Mr Whyte.

The Tribunal … noted that … it would proceed on the basis that there was an absolute denial on (Mr Whyte’s) part of each element of the alleged breach of the rules in all its particulars.

The Tribunal directed that accordingly, and notwithstanding the fact that in its written responses Rangers FC in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules, … the Tribunal would require to establish a clear factual basis for its Determination of both any alleged breaches and, if applicable, any sanction against either or both Rangers FC or Mr Whyte. … The commission and the circumstances of the alleged breaches would therefore require to be established by the leading of evidence before the Tribunal …

A discussion in relation to the procedure to be adopted took place. It was agreed that the Compliance Officer Mr Lunny would lead evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material but would lead no witnesses, and would invite the Tribunal to accept the evidence in that form as provided in the Judicial Panel Protocol. Mr McLaughlin for Rangers FC, standing its position on the complaints contained in the written response previously submitted had neither issues with that proposal nor any other objection to the procedure which would be adopted. An opportunity would then be afforded to Rangers FC to lead evidence and make submissions as Mr McLaughlin on its behalf saw fit. Mr McLaughlin intimated that he would be likely to lead evidence from four witnesses previously intimated to the Compliance Officer and the Tribunal in terms of the Judicial Panel Protocol.”

At the hearing the positions of Rangers FC and of Mr Whyte were totally at odds. Mr Whyte did not appear nor lodge any substantive reply. He denied everything. On the other hand, Rangers FC “in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules”. As the Panel determined, they needed to be satisfied of the right verdict based on the evidence, but as the “prosecution case” was generally admitted, there was less rigour about this than if, for example, Mr Whyte had attended and denied the charges.

If Mr Whyte had appeared to deny the allegations, or if Rangers FC had disputed them, then evidence would have had to come from witnesses, who could have been cross-examined. In that event it would not have been sufficient to present the Nimmo Smith report, because, for all his experience, expertise and eminence, he is not guaranteed to be infallible.

One important principle in judicial and quasi-judicial procedure is the “Best Evidence rule”. If possible, original documents should be produced, rather than copies. Items of physical evidence should be brought to the court, rather than photographs of it. Witnesses should give evidence rather than having witness statements provided to the hearing.

This, I think, provides part of the explanation for the apparently mysterious absence of the Nimmo Smith Report.

The facts of the case had been admitted by the only party who attended the hearing, namely Rangers FC. Therefore Mr Lunny led “evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material”. The Panel made 108 separate “findings in fact” derived from the evidence he put forward and that of Rangers FC.

Where Lord Nimmo Smith’s committee had, for example, analysed documents and offered a conclusion upon their import, the documents would be evidence but His Lordship’s conclusion would not. Similarly where a witness had been interviewed by the Nimmo Smith commission, or provided a statement, the former judge’s views on that would not be evidence, but the witness statement would be.

Mr Lunny, the Compliance Officer, was acting as prosecutor. Effectively Lord Nimmo Smith played the role of a senior detective co-ordinating an investigation, but not actually obtaining any evidence himself. In a criminal trial, where the officer in charge of the investigation has taken no part in the accumulation of the evidence, then their relevance as a witness is very small at best. It is up to the judge or the jury to decide what the totality of evidence means as far as guilt or innocence is concerned.

Therefore whilst I am sure that Lord Nimmo Smith’s report was on Mr Lunny’s table as he went through his presentation, ticking off the relevant parts as he led the primary evidence, the Report itself was not “relevant” evidence for the Panel. It is likely that, in discussion prior to the hearing, Mr Lunny and the solicitor for Rangers FC agreed whether the Nimmo Smith report would be used or not.

Mr Regan said prior to the Panel sitting The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol. The presentation of the case of course was independent of him, and whilst the Report would have formed the basis for the charges laid against Rangers FC and Mr Whyte, it was not evidence itself, as agreed between the parties.

The second aspect which accords with this explanation is the precise phrase used by Mr Regan. He said, after the decision, These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal.”

He did not say that the report was presented, rather that the findings were. As the findings would form the basis for the “charges” admitted by Rangers FC, then to that extent the Nimmo Smith report played a part in the proceedings.

This issue has relevance now for the forthcoming SPL proceedings involving player payments and registrations which might have broken the rules. To great clamour and consternation from Ibrox direction, Harper MacLeod, the widely respected and highly rated form of solicitors, have carried out an investigation for the SPL into Rangers FC.

Mr Green has made clear that, as far as possible, the case will be fought, and no past titles will be stripped if he can do anything about it. Expect calls for the Harper MacLeod report to be produced.

However, it is in exactly the same position as the Nimmo Smith report was, except this time the accused is not accepting guilt. In that case, the relevant documents and witnesses will need to attend for scrutiny and examination.

On the basis that the First Tier Tax Tribunal, which looked at different but related issues, took many days to conclude, it is highly likely that the SPL case will not have a quick conclusion.

As a final aside, I must compliment Mr Green. All of the media speculation about punishment in the event that the independent commission find guilt on the part of Rangers repeats the mantra from Ibrox that the most severe penalty, namely stripping of titles, is the aim of the SPL.

I suspect that the SPL might believe that too now, on the basis that something which the club and the fans oppose so vigorously must be a draconian penalty.

But, of all of the various penalties listed, stripping titles would not cost the Rangers FC a single penny. The issue has already seen the supporters unite behind their team. Even if the commission finds the case proven, and as a result Rangers lose some of their historic titles, this will be seen by the Ibrox faithful as yet more treachery by the football authorities. Bearing in mind that the SPL rules allow various penalties, including the power to expel the club, impose unlimited fines and place a registration embargo on the club, altering the history books is the best thing for Rangers as a business, rather than a penalty which affects them just now.

Posted by Paul McConville – www.scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com

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Elijah Baley subscriber

1,330 Comments so far

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slimshady61Posted on11:34 pm - Aug 13, 2012


the Don Dionisio says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:05
I have it on very good authority from my paisan sources, that they will be paying Mr CG a visit in the very near future. They will make him an offer he can’t refuse….
———————————————
What’s that, Don, £2M for 9.8%?

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rabPosted on11:39 pm - Aug 13, 2012


Campsiejoe.

I was having a g!raffe at 23:04, club and plc are one, celtic plc cant sell celtic football club as it doesnt own celtic football club. It is celtic football club.

Just to clarify.

=============================

Reposted due to schoolboy error, 2 in moderation now, TSFM will be pleased. 😀

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on11:41 pm - Aug 13, 2012


If the SFA hold onto second place monies from last season and use this to pay some of the football debts, are they then indicating that they think of TRFC and RFC(IA) as the same thing.

TRFC have not even won a league match yet, it was RFC(IA) that came second so surely this money should go into the creditors pot.

I think I know what I mean, but when I type it?

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CelticbhoyPosted on11:44 pm - Aug 13, 2012


Rabid
Thanks for the reply. Technical RangersFC have never had their name on the cup as the last space to put a name on the cup was taken by Celtic.
Anyway the question is one to force a response form the SFA as to how the record books will record the win. Thus getting them to admit if TRFC is a continuation of RFC or not.

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CEPosted on11:54 pm - Aug 13, 2012


Horrific treatment of DJ earlier I’m afraid.

Most of his information he has provided so far has been 100% accurate. And to be tarred with the blue brush merely for not towing the party line, is the kind of behaviour I think we should leave to RM, FF and their ilk.

Please do not be put off posting information in future DJ, many posters are no doubt glad of people with contacts posting facts, rumour and innuendo. As long as you as help us separate the wheat from the chaff.

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midcalderanPosted on11:54 pm - Aug 13, 2012


TSFM says:
August 13, 2012 at 21:21
22 0 Rate This
DJ, Slim, EC

Can we give it a rest guys? ……….

====================
Thank goodness. Just been catching up after two days away and this exchange was bursti’n ma breeks.

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rabPosted on11:58 pm - Aug 13, 2012


Celticbhoy.

Rabid??? Thats got me foaming at the mouth. 😀

I realise they are not on the cup , but what about the wee shield things on the base. Do all teams get their full name on the cup. Is this the same for the league cup which is a sfl trophy.

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CelticbhoyPosted on12:06 am - Aug 14, 2012


Rab many apologies for the rabid . I hate predictive text on mobile phones. Anyway not sure if it is the full club title or not. l know they would not be able to represent Scottish Football in Europe even if they did win it.

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CWPosted on12:12 am - Aug 14, 2012


rab says:

August 13, 2012 at 23:13

Rate This

Celticbhoy.

Do teams get their sunday names inscribed on the cup, eg, heart of midlothian or hearts.

If its the former then a question could be asked of the sfa and sfl if The Rangers will be inscribed as opposed to rangers.

==========================================================================

Rab,

It doesn’t matter. The famous Scottish Cup is going to look a right mess anyway as soon as The Engravers are ordered to score a horizontal line across some of the more recent engravings, with the word “Tainted/ Disqualified” in brackets at the end.

i.e. *-Rangers-* (Tainted/ Disqualified).

At the moment, it’s certainly been a sad old end to a once great club. The undignified way they still try to cling on to old glories is unedifying, aided of course by the MSM.

The damage they have done to the game in Scotland will be remembered for years to come. I’m sure a lot more skeletons will come out of the cupboard over time, but in the present time so many main characters have to look themselves in the mirror ! Obviously, they are not looking in the mirror, and are still playing their underhand games, and more importantly, GETTING AWAY WITH IT !

I think it is time to draw a line on the whole affair, have an Official Public Enquiry and drag the main culprits in front of said Official Public Enquiry, under oath of course !

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rabPosted on12:18 am - Aug 14, 2012


Celticbhoy

No problem. As i said earlier, these are the sneaky ways that sfa/Trfc/msm will seek to cling onto rfc. I have no belief i will ever hear the sfa say that rfc is no more, similarly the msm will always link to good history ( trophies ) and separation of bad history ( of old company debt ). We have seen nothing but a master and servant relationship between them all.

The club did die though.

And they know it.

And we know it.

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stunneyPosted on12:18 am - Aug 14, 2012


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/one-wispy-leaf-costs-carl-pettersson-two-strokes-003944144–golf.html

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smartie1947Posted on12:18 am - Aug 14, 2012


Tic 6709 says:

August 13, 2012 at 22:32

5

0

Rate This

It was on telly tonight that Dundee Utd.wanted ST holders to hand in vouchers if they were not going to the game,they want to try to sell them again.(cant remember which game ).

===================================================================

Although I believe tonight’s rumour re admin for DUFC simply to be wishful thinking from those with an agenda on RM, the suggestion in the above post is actually a very simple idea which Arsenal have adopted for many seasons.
It works on the principle that you have a very high percentage of your fanbase who buy STs year in ,year out leaving very few tickets available for those wanting an opportunity to pick up any “spare” tickets for a home game.Those prepared to purchase a ticket for any forthcoming game register with the club and their details go on a computerised list.
Any ST holder who cannot attend a game for any reason, say holidays,work commitments etc can contact Arsenal up to approx 14 days before the scheduled fixture and state that they wish to make their ticket availible for that game. As the STs are computerised, all Arsenal need then to do is offer that ticket to the next “lucky name” on the reserve list who has a few days to take up the offer.
Financially the “lucky name” must then pay Arsenal the full market cost of the ticket. The advantage for the ST holder is that he is credited with 80% of the ticket’s value which can then be used as a credit note to partially offset the cost of the following year’s ST. A simple solution whereby Arsenal more than cover their admin costs and several liucky punters each game get a chance of a ticket.
Also great PR for the club from both the ST holder and lucky punter.

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AuldheidPosted on12:22 am - Aug 14, 2012


Some of you might remember a post of a letter to Margo McDonald copied to the First Minister on 10th July.

Here is a copy plus the reply just received.

Note a) the urge to move on and avoid the issue of SFA governance

b) the excuse for non interference that totally ignores how the UK Parliament managed to get involved without upsetting UFA/FIFA.

It is like being treated like an idiot by a moron.

Dear Margo

(Copied to First Minister, Alex Salmond)

I am writing to you in your capacity as Chairperson of Cross-Party Group on Sport at Hollyrood concerning the matter of the governance of Scottish football, where the unfolding saga at Glasgow Rangers FC suggests that whilst the SFA have made some reform inroads in response to the Henry McLeish recommendations in terms of transparency, much still needs to be done on accountability and other issues.

The SFA are the organisation charged with the care of a sport that does form a major part of the fabric of Scottish society and their lack of accountability and clarity of authority raises “fit for purpose” questions.

I appreciate that governments as a matter of policy do not get involved in football matters but note that in England in 2008 and 2009 an All Party Parliamentary Football Group

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/about.htm and

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/about.htm

looked at the governance of English Football and following their investigations produced a report in April 2009 “ English Football and its Governance”

http://www.allpartyfootball.com/APFG_Report_on_English_Football_&_Its_Governance_April_2009%5b1%5d.pdf

The integrity of the game in Scotland has all but been destroyed, not just by what has happened at Rangers, but by the handling of the consequential emerging issues by the SPL and SFA. Both seem ultimately unaccountable to anyone in Scotland and unclear on their respective responsibilities to each other and the game in general. I am therefore writing to suggest that the Scottish government could adopt a similar approach as in England and have an all party enquiry to look at:

The accountability of the SFA

clarity of roles and responsibilities between the various authorities (SFA/SPL etc)

If any of the recommendations in the English report are applicable here, particularly Chapter Three in terms of improved accountability.

There is no record of FIFA/UEFA objection to this approach; in fact they might welcome the input of a similar all party enquiry to restore confidence in the governance of the game in Scotland as would the Scottish Public.

I appreciate that the all party group in England consisted of volunteers but such is the passion for the game in this country I think there will be a cohort of the willing, including supporters trusts and associations to take part.

I await your views and the views of the First Minister to whom this is copied with interest.

The Reply

Dear Auldheid

Thank you for your email of 10 July on issues relating to Scottish Football. I have been asked to reply.

As I am sure you can appreciate there have been a number of developments since your correspondence. As our national game, the Scottish Government’s commitment to football and to its future is beyond doubt. Year on year we have invested record amounts in football development and facilities. We will deliver a world class National Performance Centre for Sport which will have football at its heart and the First Minister recently announced the Scottish Government would sponsor the 2012/13 Scottish Communities League Cup in recognition of the important role our clubs play in communities across Scotland.

Decisions around league membership and restructuring are entirely a matter for the football authorities and individual clubs. We respect the decisions by members of the Scottish Premier League and Scottish Football League and appreciate this will require a period of adjustment for both Rangers and many other football clubs. In order to ensure the continued development of Scottish football we recognise that the focus should now turn to the restructuring and reform required.

As you may know, Fifa rules strictly prohibit what they perceive as ‘political interference’ from Governments in their members’ affairs and there have been well known examples in recent years where members have been suspended or threatened with a suspension for what Fifa perceive as Government interference. As a result, the Scottish Government, like other governments, recognises the right of independent sports governing bodies such as the Scottish FA to structure themselves as they see fit without interference from Scottish Ministers.

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Itsagoal!Posted on12:28 am - Aug 14, 2012


Webster – I like what you are trying to do – either ‘they’ still exist and therefore still owe lots of money and can we have it back please – or ‘they’ don’t exist and it really is a new team.

Just one point re your plea to ‘council tax payers’ – most of the funding for the public bodies listed comes from the Scottish Government (@80% of council services are funded by central govt and 20% from council tax) – so methinks it should be the Scottish Government and the public bodies in unison chasing the money.

but then again it was the head of the Scottish Government who phoned HMRC to tell them to ‘go easy’ on Rangers(ia) as they were ‘not just an important part of Scottish football, but Scottish society’ so methinks your (welcome) crusade might fall on deaf ears in Bute House……. (as he’s too busy eating succulent lamb with his next door neighbour & endorser Sir David Murray)

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midcalderanPosted on12:33 am - Aug 14, 2012


stunney says:
August 14, 2012 at 00:18

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/one-wispy-leaf-costs-carl-pettersson-two-strokes-003944144–golf.html
——————————-

Stunney, do you ever sleep. This sums it all up perfectly.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on1:03 am - Aug 14, 2012


Auldheid says:
August 14, 2012 at 00:22

Well done on writing the letter.

The response is simply stunning; might as well have said “move along, nothing to see here”. Condescending claptrap.

I think this is worth re-posting on the “day shift”.

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TSFMPosted on1:22 am - Aug 14, 2012


Jimmy Bell’s pants says:

August 13, 2012 at 22:51(Edit)

PL, censorship? Why?

_________________________________

OK, I’ll bite. Why?

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droidPosted on2:13 am - Aug 14, 2012


a marriage made in heaven –

https://www.ramsdensforcash.co.uk/buy-it/shop/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-third-division/table

so meant for each other :mrgreen:

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stunneyPosted on2:54 am - Aug 14, 2012


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/peter-houston-leaps-to-levein-s-defence-over-controversial-call-up-for-ian-black-1-2465150

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stunneyPosted on2:55 am - Aug 14, 2012


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/scotland-v-australia-ian-black-may-be-first-player-to-represent-scotland-from-bottom-tier-for-53-years-1-2465731

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stunneyPosted on2:56 am - Aug 14, 2012


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/rangers-run-rule-over-trialist-duo-as-debts-to-other-clubs-are-cleared-according-to-charles-green-1-2465428

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stunneyPosted on3:09 am - Aug 14, 2012


http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/houston-insists-black-is-in-scotland-team-on-merit.18584695

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CEPosted on3:28 am - Aug 14, 2012


So let me get this right, todays fanfare about repaying Scottish debts amounted to The Pars & United’s cash, a total of about £50K(or 500K to the DR) & was paid directly following a home match with a PATG facility?

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CEPosted on3:44 am - Aug 14, 2012


Nice to see Wilkinson Levein was brave enough to face the media himself. 🙄

If Black isnt going to be part of the squad for the qualifiers in September why have him there for 1 game? Give the position to an Under 21 player so he can get a taste of life with the full team not waste it on some sell out who was rated by Levein as not good enough last season to get anywhere near the team.
Its an incredibly stupid decision that was always going to be hated by the fans. 4-6-0 and now Black. What a legacy to leave behind.

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tic6709Posted on6:29 am - Aug 14, 2012


smartie1947 says:

August 14, 2012 at 00:18

Rate This

Tic 6709 says:

August 13, 2012 at 22:32

Rate This

It was on telly tonight that Dundee Utd.wanted ST holders to hand in vouchers if they were not going to the game,they want to try to sell them again.(cant remember which game ).

===================================================================

Although I believe tonight’s rumour re admin for DUFC simply to be wishful thinking from those with an agenda on RM, the suggestion in the above post is actually a very simple idea which Arsenal have adopted for many seasons.
It works on the principle that you have a very high percentage of your fanbase who buy STs year in ,year out leaving very few tickets available for those wanting an opportunity to pick up any “spare” tickets for a home game.Those prepared to purchase a ticket for any forthcoming game register with the club and their details go on a computerised list.
Any ST holder who cannot attend a game for any reason, say holidays,work commitments etc can contact Arsenal up to approx 14 days before the scheduled fixture and state that they wish to make their ticket availible for that game. As the STs are computerised, all Arsenal need then to do is offer that ticket to the next “lucky name” on the reserve list who has a few days to take up the offer.
Financially the “lucky name” must then pay Arsenal the full market cost of the ticket. The advantage for the ST holder is that he is credited with 80% of the ticket’s value which can then be used as a credit note to partially offset the cost of the following year’s ST. A simple solution whereby Arsenal more than cover their admin costs and several liucky punters each game get a chance of a ticket.
Also great PR for the club from both the ST holder and lucky punter.

=============================================================
I did not post to criticize Dundee Utd. in fact I think It is a great idea and wish it was implemented by all clubs.Every bit helps.

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thewestlightPosted on7:19 am - Aug 14, 2012


How can we take these anonymous comments seriously? They could be from anyone with an agenda. Who does TSFM work for ? How much money do they expect to make on the book?

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BrendaPosted on7:43 am - Aug 14, 2012


Have East Fife got their gate money yet? In full? You’ve got a few more days Charlie?!?

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FinlochPosted on8:06 am - Aug 14, 2012


the westlife says 07:19

You’re right
Never take any take comments on this site seriously or any other for that matter without reading them and thinking about them.
And listen to the debates and make your own mind up – if it is open enough to come to its own solutions.

That’s why RTC and then TSFM is different and why they have made such an impact.

And the books will be seminal, both the anonymous one and the one that comes with its author’s name on the cover

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on8:15 am - Aug 14, 2012


So paying the football debts was not a condition of getting SFA membership. According to CG he did not have to pay these as they are Oldco’s and he is only paying these because he is a nice guy.

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on8:26 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says:
August 14, 2012 at 07:19

How can we take these anonymous comments seriously? They could be from anyone with an agenda. Who does TSFM work for ? How much money do they expect to make on the book?
—————————————————————-
Yes, of course we should be asking these questions and many more. One of the good things about this site is that it is pretty open about the fact that we are expected to take the opinions offered and make up our own minds.. And not just of this site, or even of all internet-based media. Even with journalists who do give their names, we should be asking these questions to see what agenda may be at work. As I often recommend, read Nick Davies’ book ‘Flat Earth News’, if you doubt for a moment that the mainstream press are not manipulated / do not manipulate

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on8:28 am - Aug 14, 2012


@ShaunGibson1888: “good source” – The Rangers are in £300,000 debt already, and a claim been put in against them..Watch this space I guess #NotBloggingIt

Apparently source is in Ibrox.

Hmmm

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ptd19781Posted on8:32 am - Aug 14, 2012


CG reckons the football debts have been paid in full, except Hearts next payment for Wallace will be made next July.

So was payment of these debts a condition to league entry or not? Shirley they should have been paid up front. If HMRC weren’t already looking at these payments and thinking that some creditors are being paid off in order to assume the Rangers name on the cheap, then doesn’t actually taking on the payment timetable disprove that these payments are penalties that TRFC had to pay to get into the league. TRFC are paying off selected debts from the old club.

I thought that was a no-no.

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exfallhoose2012Posted on8:44 am - Aug 14, 2012


Stanblack 23.15 last night.
Thank you for that clarification on Phoenix-ing though I had to read it twice to be sure – were describing Phoenix-ing or what happened at Murky Park with D&P ….. !? Can you enlighten further – will someone (who?) automatically step in (and when)? Would that be with liquidation? Or will everything be allowed to drift in the hope that boredom will prevail and nothing will happen?Sorry if this has all been covered before – I have been out of touch/without internet recently

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whispererPosted on8:54 am - Aug 14, 2012


How can they be 300k in debt ? Without full banking facilities ? Overdraft ? ….. Or have they purchased something and not paid for it ? …. Dreadful …. Just ONE game into the season … Tut Tut !

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goosyPosted on8:57 am - Aug 14, 2012


Its sad really
Of all people at Hampden Craig Levein was the one I thought had the backbone to stand up for integrity

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thewestlightPosted on8:57 am - Aug 14, 2012


It is easy to criticise rangers for ‘cheating’. I think we forget how tough it must have been for them prior to the EBT era. What would you have done if your club was facing years of oblivion and possible closure due to poor results and plummeting attendances? I’m sure we havw alll bent the rules in our time.

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BrendaPosted on9:04 am - Aug 14, 2012


Aren’t East Fife owed roundabout £300k??

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Philip José FarmerPosted on9:06 am - Aug 14, 2012


Stanblack says:
August 13, 2012 at 23:15
3 0 i
Rate This

Phoenix company fraud happens after company goes bankrupt and a second company (known as a phoenix company) is started up overnight with the same directors. Although this is perfectly legal, fraud is committed for example when the directors abuse the phoenix company arrangement and effect a pre-insolvency transfer of assets below market value or fail to account for VAT

=========================================

If it’s “perfectly legal” then on what basis can HMRC demand security of something like 50% of taxes in advance. How can something be perfectly legal but also have a punitive consequences.

There seems to be a conception that it’s a black and white thing, criminal evasion or “perfectly legal”. It isn’t. There are also things like civil offences, with punishments attached to them. Like the penalties imposed on Rangers for not paying their tax. The interest is not a penalty, it is simply commercial restitution. The penalties are just that, penalties.

“It was perfectly legal” is a nice fan friendly soundbite though.

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willmacufreePosted on9:11 am - Aug 14, 2012


J. D. “ ‘A house divided against itself cannot stand’ said one Abraham Lincoln, … Sermon over for tonight.” your good self 13 Aug @ 21.50

I hate to bring this up, but…actually those words were spoken by a well known man of Nazareth.about 2000 years before oor Abe. (See Mk. 3:24, and/or Matt. 12:25.) Now the sermon’s over.

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timtimPosted on9:12 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says:
August 14, 2012 at 08:57
————————-
Have you heard of Airdrieonians FC or Third Lanark or Gretna or Clydebank
you’re post is howling- we cheated so everyone would have cheated in our position
not so apparently

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Don JohnPosted on9:20 am - Aug 14, 2012


It is easy to criticise rangers for ‘cheating’.
– Yes, far too easy in fact given the amount of cheating that was done.
I think we forget how tough it must have been for them prior to the EBT era.
– No, we remember it with pleasure and hoped it would continue.
What would you have done if your club was facing years of oblivion and possible closure due to poor results and plummeting attendances?
– I support Aberdeen who have gone 16 years without a trophy. Dons fans have come up with all sorts of ideas on how to improve the team and its performance, from a millionaire sugar daddy (fanciful) to suggestions about players we should be buying (some still fanciful) and to ideas to improve the finances. None of these suggestions have ever included cheating of any sort, let alone defrauding the taxman and lots of honest traders.
I’m sure we havw alll bent the rules in our time.
– Yes we’ve all bent the rules, after all any rule or law is open to interpretation. What most of us have not done is drive a freight train through the rules and then expect the authorities to waive all penalties and sanctions and let us straight back to the point where we can continue or former ways.

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thewestlightPosted on9:23 am - Aug 14, 2012


timtim says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:12

Have you heard of Airdrieonians FC or Third Lanark or Gretna or Clydebank
you’re post is howling- we cheated so everyone would have cheated in our position
not so apparently

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Any one with a love or passion for their club would do anything to preserve their continuity. These other clubs were obviously in the hands of people with no get up and go. It is normal human instinct to survive and prosper.

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tilhotdogsbarkPosted on9:29 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says:

August 14, 2012 at 09:23

You’re at it aren’t you?

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tomtomPosted on9:31 am - Aug 14, 2012


Auldheid,

The text in their response,

“As you may know, Fifa rules strictly prohibit what they perceive as ‘political interference’ from Governments in their members’ affairs and there have been well known examples in recent years where members have been suspended or threatened with a suspension for what Fifa perceive as Government interference.”

What the hell was Salmond doing talking to HMRC then. If the First Minister discussing such a topic with the revenue arm of the national government is not “poilitical Interference” then what is it.

Like most government departments you learn more from their replies than you would ever imagine.

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thewestlightPosted on9:36 am - Aug 14, 2012


tilhotdogsbark says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:29
0 0 Rate This
thewestlight says:

August 14, 2012 at 09:23

You’re at it aren’t you?

……………………………………….

Not at all. Rangers are victims of the banking cartels enslavement mechanism. They are no different to poor people who are extended credit they have no hope of repaying. That is how they get you. Whether it is Rangers, poor third world countries or whoever. When you default they take your property and possessions in an act of theft.

I blame the banks.

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timtimPosted on9:37 am - Aug 14, 2012


Airdrieonians Fc died and became Airdrie Utd ,they took their punishment
Gretna Fc died and reformed starting again in the lower leagues
Third Lanark died but still exist today as an amatuer club
Clydebank died but reformed to play at Junior level

These clubs obviously were in the hands of people with not just get up and go but also
a sense of right and wrong and therein lies the difference between them and Rfc*

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tic6709Posted on9:40 am - Aug 14, 2012


Why oh why are people responding to that plonker thewestlight ?.He is only there to annoy,not discuss.
Ignore him,he will be back later with another name.

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Just because you’re paranoid……Posted on9:44 am - Aug 14, 2012


Tic 6709 says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:40

very fair point and a sensible too, although I was tempted to ask what drugs he was on

WRT the Arsenal scheme for reselling unused season tickets – commercial dept at Celtic (and other clubs) please take note

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timtimPosted on9:46 am - Aug 14, 2012


” When you default they take your property and possessions in an act of theft.”
————-
but they didnt did they ,they allowed Duff and Phelps to sell the property and possessions to Charles for far less than they were actually worth, that was an act of theft on the people by the administrators on behalf of Rfc* .
The banking cartels enslavement mechanism does go on ,its happening today right under our noses but Rfc* are not the victims they are joined at the hip with the criminals .
Rfc* funded by these cartels lived the high life for over a decade ,when it came time to pay their dues they stuck 2 fingers up at the rest of us and carried on under the same name playing in the same suits at the same ground and training at the same complex .It is the rest of us who will pay their dues through taxation in the future .

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rabPosted on9:46 am - Aug 14, 2012


The west light says.

I blame the bank.
===============================

Good for you, i blame david murray myself, and the other directors, and the sfa, and the msm, and the bank before lloyds got in and seen just how complicit the previous bank had been.

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M_A_RPosted on9:49 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says: August 14, 2012 at 09:36 –
“Rangers are victims of the banking cartels enslavement mechanism. They are no different to poor people who are extended credit they have no hope of repaying.”

No they’re not – they had a very good income stream. Their own greed got the better of them, not the banks. You can’t move on until you accept responsibility for your own deeds.

Do gers have a sense of right or wrong?

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rabPosted on9:49 am - Aug 14, 2012


Dont forget HMRC and Neil Lennon,

oh and Peter Lawwel

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CEPosted on9:51 am - Aug 14, 2012


What would you have done if your club was facing years of oblivion and possible closure due to poor results and plummeting attendances?

——————————————————–

Cut yer cloth, you muppet(c. Craig Burley). Every club outwith the Old Firm faced this situation daily over the last 20 years. And none of the diddies resorted to cheating their fellow clubs and taxpayers out of millions of pounds.

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DunmanPosted on9:51 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:40
0 1 Rate This
Thusspaketimtim says

These clubs obviously were in the hands of people with not just get up and go but also
a sense of right and wrong and therein lies the difference between them and Rfc

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Right or wrong is a product of the mind. Do tigers have a sense of right or wrong?

=================================================================
Tigers? That’s a deep philosophical, complicated question. I’ll bring it back to simplistic terms…….
HMRC do around payment of tax and NI, hence RFC status is now IA, to be IL, gone.

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tic6709Posted on9:54 am - Aug 14, 2012


Just because your’e paranoid@ 9.44. I think the scheme is a great idea,so simple and everyone’s a winner. Less empty seats,more income.The more i think about it the better it gets.

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tomtomPosted on10:02 am - Aug 14, 2012


Tic 6709 says:
August 13, 2012 at 22:32

It was on telly tonight that Dundee Utd.wanted ST holders to hand in vouchers if they were not going to the game,they want to try to sell them again.(cant remember which game ).
———————————————–

Nothing new in this. There was another club in Scotland that used to do this before they went out of business. -:D

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TheBlackKnightPosted on10:04 am - Aug 14, 2012


how many times…………….!

Don’t feed the trolls! Unless you deliberately want to assist in wrecking the blog or ‘covering up’ a pertinent point that has been made, then lost to the dross!

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HirsutePursuitPosted on10:07 am - Aug 14, 2012


timtim says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:37
1 0 Rate This
Airdrieonians Fc died and became Airdrie Utd ,they took their punishment
Gretna Fc died and reformed starting again in the lower leagues
Third Lanark died but still exist today as an amatuer club
Clydebank died but reformed to play at Junior level

These clubs obviously were in the hands of people with not just get up and go but also
a sense of right and wrong and therein lies the difference between them and Rfc*
=======================
Technically, not quite true.

Airdrieonians FC are deid – full stop. They did not reform.
Clydebank are alive and well after reforming as Airdrie United.
Clydebank Juniors are a new club.

Airdrie United are a continuation of Clydebank FC – they dumped their fans when relocating and renaming the club.

Airdrie United are not a continuation of Airdrieonians as Clydebank Juniors are not a continuation of Clydebank FC – though, of course, they both seek to draw their support from the original clubs’ fan-base.

Sound familiar?

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Hoopy 7Posted on10:10 am - Aug 14, 2012


Good Morning.

Logging on after a break.

Interesting to see that nothing changes.

Daily Rancid state:-

“SELL Out Saturday, the day of action to promote Scottish football – backed by the Daily Record – hailed a success after attracting supporters in their thousands.”

Are the Daily Record the John Terry of the MSM? or did I miss their wonderful promotion of the beautiful game?

As for picking Black, if he wasn’t good enough at Hearts how can he be good enough now?

Surely there are lots of up and coming young players who could have been picked to give them some experience?

The SFA have systematically ignored the rule book and it will come back to haunt them in due course.

Anyone know when Lord Hodge is back?

Is BDO waiting till he has had his say?

Will BDO unravel anything or will they just be content to go for SDM and the other directors?

Still so many unanswered questions and heads to roll in time.

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jockybhoyPosted on10:15 am - Aug 14, 2012


TheWestlife is comedy gold btw. It’s not even trolling. thewestlight says: August 14, 2012 at 08:57
I think we forget how tough it must have been for (What Was Rangers) prior to the EBT era. What would you have done if your club was facing years of oblivion and possible closure due to poor results and plummeting attendances?

You’re a Tim right? Cos that is as damning an accusation as anything I have seen on Celtic message boards. You, Thewestlight, are saying that Rangers deliberately went the EBT route, bent the rules, misled the league and tried to get around HMRC taxes, indeed “cheated”, explicitly because if they didn’t they would have gone bust years ago.

Brulliant. Pure dead (in Rangers case) brulliant.

The case for the prosecution rests.
judge whispers “who’s got the black cloth?”

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tomtomPosted on10:18 am - Aug 14, 2012


Why bother with thewestlight? It’s like trying to explain colour to a blind man.

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ChrisPosted on10:21 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight is at it.

He knows full well Rangers dug their own grave and jumped in head first.

All football clubs face periods of not winning and reaction from supporters, they face the years of having to sit back and shut up as others claim the glory. The problem Rangers had was their fans refused to accept this and their owners and officers tried to change it by breaking the rules, and there’s the rub. Thewestlight is correct when he says the human instinct is to survive and prosper, but that’s why the rules are in place, to ensure that instinct doesn’t get the better of itself. It did.

Rangers could have survived and eventually propsered again had they only accepted they had means to live within, but they couldn’t and as a result made choices, which the fans loudly backed (in fact, the fans not only loudly backed these choices, they loudly antagonised supporters of every other club in the land as they did so, proclaiming many a time they were just too good, too big, for the domestic game).

The most amazing of all those choices wasn’t actually taken by David Murray though, far from it. It was taken by AlastairJohnston and the rest of the board in 2008 when HMRC first presented their assessment to the club. They could have then decided to shut down the spending (or more correctly the borrowing to finance the spending) and made provision to pay their dues. Had they done so, and quietly, it’s highly likely this blog and RTC’s original creation would never have seen the light of day – there would have been no need. Alas they didn’t make the choice to change, they made the choice to go for broke, quite literally, as they ramped up the debt to try to ensure the CL money found its way to Ibrox after 3 years without.

Rather than pay their dues they spent other peoples money. Sums it up really.

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craig78Posted on10:21 am - Aug 14, 2012


Right now the troll ‘thewestlight’ is primarily using ‘topic dilution’ – tigers, yetis, etc… but I am sure if folk keep wasting their time on him, he’ll move on to other trolling techniques:

http://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

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Roland BrownPosted on10:23 am - Aug 14, 2012


Murray Whyte collections,

http://www.womenindebt.co.uk/blog/2010/12/22/beware-mws-collections/

An Insider says:
January 15, 2011 at 12:55 pm
This compnay has no authority to collect on anything, in fact it has been issued with legal instructions from the bank to cease and decist on collection this debt. Also without a consumer credit licence they are in fact breaking the law, nevermind the harrasment of consumers.

The company is run by a Mr James Park who recently ran the water company Powwow and his old debt collection company Murray White (Other alisas of Murraywhite were PPR Recoveries, Freshstart Money Help, Anderson Barclay Litigation, Viewpoint Systems, Monteray Estates and the most recent MWS Collections which is an abbreviation of Murray White Services)
Hence the over the top £100 admin charge and payment increse requests.

If this compnay calls just advise Jim McDermott that the call has been noted and the details of the bank account where payment to be made will be forwarded to the guardian, the OFT, Deloittes, Campbell Dallas and KPMG.

They are all chasing him down for money so at the very least publicising the bank account will get it frozen and the monies arrested.

If that doesnt put a smile on your face nothing will

so before you do anything ask for proff of assignation and a full statement of the debt and charges before you pay anything, gather your evidence that they have been taking the money and not allocating it to your account and then report them to the appropriate authorities.

Could this be the same James Park,

http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/915835598

http://www.fesfm.co.uk/company-overview.php

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AlthetimPosted on10:26 am - Aug 14, 2012


Just logged on for a quick read before setting off for work.

thewestlight – thanks for the laugh – your posts are hilarious.

Seriously people, laugh at this stuff but don’t rise to the bait.

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Carl31Posted on10:29 am - Aug 14, 2012


Time to change the Scotland manager I think.

Any suggestions for who the next one should be?

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isnibsPosted on10:35 am - Aug 14, 2012


Apologies if already posted

From ecojon via paul mac

http://t.co/UapPby4D

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Rocky sullivanPosted on10:38 am - Aug 14, 2012


Cold Lazarus FC have settled their debts to other clubs.

Not only that, but they want praise for it!!!!!

Remarkable attitude.

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thomthethimPosted on10:40 am - Aug 14, 2012


Another Black day for Levein and the SFA.

They are surely not elevating the player to International status in order to increase his transfer value?

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Philip José FarmerPosted on10:42 am - Aug 14, 2012


I believe that today is the day the new clubs season tickets go on general sale.

As I understand it renewals stand at somewhere in excess of 25,000. A reasonable estimate at total sales would be somewhere around 30,000 in my opinion. A figure which a lot of poeple have guessed at for quite some time.

If we take the average seat at around £300 (I think that is fair given that there will be some concessions) then the income from season tickets comes to c£9m. However that includes VAT so the net income is c£7.5m

It is questionable whether that figure plus matchday sales plus other incomes will be enough to sustain this business. There will be no European money, little or no media income, reduced match day sales (catering etc). So the budgets will be cut dramatically.

Given that there is no serious banking in place, and it is unlikely that credit will be available on reasonable terms this business is nothing even approaching viable in my view. A share issue is not only essential it is also urgent. In short they will need a cash injection very soon, and given that individual investors to the private company seem to be in short supply then the floatation must be coming fairly soon.

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stevensanph

stevensanphPosted on10:48 am - Aug 14, 2012


Philip José Farmer says:
August 14, 2012 at 10:42

I posted this last week with estimated figures. I used an attendance on par with what they attracted v East Fife

http://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/how-are-sevco-affording-sandaza/

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bect67Posted on10:56 am - Aug 14, 2012


Carl,

On the next Scottish Manager, how about …

… thewestlight!

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willmacufreePosted on11:06 am - Aug 14, 2012


CE says:
August 14, 2012 at 09:51
Rate This
——————————————————–
…. Every club outwith the Old Firm faced this situation daily over the last 20 years. And none of the diddies resorted to cheating their fellow clubs and taxpayers out of millions of pounds.
………………………………………………………….
Sorry CE, small correction there. Celtic too had to cut their suit. Fergus McCann was the tailor, placing financial probity before success on the pitch. Was he correct, or what?

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jockybhoyPosted on11:09 am - Aug 14, 2012


thewestlight says: August 14, 2012 at 10:23 I’m a billytim ! Pure 50/50, though agnostic by nature.

Really? I’m surprised at that because you have taken a harsher stance than even my rabid Celtic mates that Rangers deliberately and for the purpose of self-preservation set out to cheat. You seem to indicate that the chairman and board of Rangers knew they would go bust without resorting to the breaking of rules (both football and tax authrotity). That is a much clearer accusation than most have laid down and I would think that may result in criminal charges. As has been written before, errors in taxation do happen, but setting out to circumvent tax laws is a very serious matter.

Now you have raised it, I can see your point. Wow. Just wow.

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redlichtiePosted on11:14 am - Aug 14, 2012


It’s great that thewestlight is posting here. His points can be debated freely and, hopefully, with insight and some sympathy.

I’m sure he is not trolling as our past encounters with those from Planet Ibrokes makes us sensitive to the needs of the ‘hard of thinking’.

/ Red Lichtie

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