Whose assets are they anyway?

Avatar ByBig Pink

Whose assets are they anyway?

It has recently been suggested to me quite strongly by two separate Finance Industry experts that no matter the outcomes of the forthcoming criminal trials into the sale of Rangers and the subsequent disposal of the liquidated assets, it is highly unlikely that the sale will be reversed. In fact BDO (the liquidators of Rangers) see the path of least resistance to any remedy (if guilty verdicts are returned) through the professional indemnity insurance held by organisations involved (I am choosing my words carefully here to comply with the rules surrounding the court case).

There is of course still the dispute between the owners of Sevco 5088 and Sevco Scotland to consider (although depending on the outcome of the criminal cases, that may be moot).

On the face of it, all of this is good news for TRFC and Dave King. After all, one of the main problems they have been facing is the uncertainty over the ownership of the assets, and if BDO are swinging in the direction indicated above, King and his board are free to move forward – you would think.

The recent plans to raise cash from the fans is I think a smart one, but it is still a sticking plaster applied to a gunshot wound. Rangers already have a gate income which is the envy of not just most Scottish clubs, but clubs much further afield. Their problem is their astronomical fixed costs, their dilapidated infrastructure, and possible cash outflow through the fabled ‘onerous contracts’.

Even putting in place a severe austerity package (which may be unpalatable to fans being asked to part with their cash to buy off pesky shareholders who don’t share King’s vision) does not remove the need to capitalise urgently to repair the stadium and build a squad capable of competing in Scotland. So they need to raise cash, and they need it quickly – because soft loans cannot be provided forever.

So the share issue route is the obvious way to go, and to do that effectively, a listing on an exchange is required. However our sources in the financial world don’t think it is possible that this could happen with the current regime for the following reasons (not in order of importance);

  1. They have absolutely no credible business plan to move forward over the next five years – only a commitment to limping on with soft loans;
  2. The current chairman is a convicted felon;
  3. Two directors of the new company were directors of the company now in liquidation;
  4. They have no line of credit;
  5. They are already in debt to the tune of at least £12m – increasing as I write;
  6. They are unable to repay that debt;
  7. There is still a nominal (even if we accept the BDO position above) doubt over the ownership of assets;
  8. The football team does not play in the top league – and European income isn’t coming soon;
  9. The company have astronomical fixed costs which are way in excess of their income.

So even if the doubt over the ownership of assets is removed, there isn’t an easily navigable route for TRFC into calmer waters.

My own conclusion is that perhaps the biggest single thing that is holding Rangers back is Dave King. I really don’t know what his motivation is. There is speculation that he has his eyes on the increasing cash-pot and diminishing creditor list at the Oldco. Some Rangers bloggers are suggesting  that a land-grab play is taking place. I think the former is far more plausible than the latter, but if we take his RRM credential at face-value, it seems to me that the Rangers-minded thing for him to do would be to reverse himself out of the position he is in.

That might enable the company to raise some of the cash they need to repair the stadium, rebuild the infrastructure within the club (players, management, youth and scouting etc.).

Are King, Taylor and Park really in this so they can indefinitely fork out £10m per year? Will Taylor and Park continue to ally themselves with King if he is the impediment to inward investment that we think he is? Park will most certainly not, and my information, from sources very close to him, is that he is done.

The fractures in KingCo are beginning to appear, and King himself may come under increasing pressure to do what is best for the future of the club, which is to remove himself from the equation and allow those better placed to take it forward.

It is often speculated elsewhere that SFM is a Celtic blog, and even those who give us credit for being a much broader church than that will still insist that we are anti-Rangers, obsessed with Rangers, and out to get Rangers.

The occasional outburst of Schadenfreude from commenters aside (it IS a football forum after all guys) SFM is quite definitely not editorially anti-Rangers.

I think the evidence shows that we are nothing of the kind, and it doesn’t do Rangers any favours to conflate our position on the corrupt nature of the governance of the game with that of the Ibrox club – new or old. Where we do discuss Rangers (as we have in this article), it is with an acknowledgment that the money flying around in football makes all of our clubs vulnerable to the kind of rip-off merchants who have wandered in and out of Ibrox in the past few years.

There are many areas where the SFM consensus is unpalatable to Rangers fans. But protecting all of our clubs and their fans from mismanagement is hopefully not one of them.

Also, despite the many rivalries within the game, Rangers are an important focus (old club or new) for tens of thousands of fans. As such they are of interest to ALL of us who support football in this country. Anyway, I tend to be more obsessive about my own club – and find it rather easier to be objective about others 🙂

My own preference in moving the debate forward is to get the perspective of Rangers fans on these issues. I am ever hopeful that we can have Rangers fans engage with the blog and look for areas where we have common purpose.

Nobody at SFM wants Rangers fans to have no team to support. Nobody here wants the SFA to stay unregulated and unaccountable. Nobody at SFM wants people to make up rules they go along just for the sake of a few quid. I can’t believe that Rangers fans don’t share those values.

I agree that Rangers fans are victims of this affair to a large extent, but the culprits are quite definitely not us at SFM. They need to look closer to home to find them.

About the author

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Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

1,787 Comments so far

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cmontheshirePosted on4:14 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Well, as to the ‘statement’ from the seriously deluded, denying, entitlement fools at Ibrox………
For a long time the Earth was believed , by many, to be irrevocably flat……..until it was proved that it isn’t!!!
It continues to astonish me that the SMSM deniers such as Keef, who, just because they have bigger keyboards and printers, assume also that they have brainpower and analytical faculties to match those pesky, numpty bloggers. Jackson’s take on things is extremely imbued with wishful thinking over facts. His newspaper articles would be shredded in minutes, if his rag allowed any comments on his ‘work’.
I am sure the guffawing replies and comments of fans, durng Jas Traynor’s Record end days, helped to flush him out of his cosy little niche, as his views were poo-pooed by common sense.

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tearsofjoyPosted on4:18 pm - Nov 9, 2015


From Keef’s DR piece today: “…Already there are rumours circulating of a number of clubs who are determined to seek retribution. They are being championed online almost as some sort of cabal, pushing SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster into pressing the button…”

**********************************************************************
Dear Keef

I have reworded it for you, – too much emotive and inflammatory language. Try and keep it “professional” in tone.

“…Already there are rumours circulating of a number of clubs who are pushing for the appropriate punishment to be applied for the tax cheating indulged in by Rangers. There is a growing groundswell of opinion from fans across Scotland that this cheating should not go unpunished and Neil Doncaster may be forced to act on this, as he did when Rangers were about to be re-admitted to the SPFL following their liquidation, which he did following boycott threats by fans of clubs all across Scotland”

Yeah, that should do it.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on4:19 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Still nothing about last week’s events in the ‘News’ section of either the SFA or SPFL websites.
Going Concern about TRFC ?
HMRC win ?
Potential impact on The Championship, Scottish football, etc ?

Regan and Doncaster look totally inept.  
Even the lawyer Doncaster must be aware that ‘something’ official has to be released by the ‘governing’ bodies – even if it says nothing of significance.
And especially now that TRFC has issued a poor statement – and which references the SPFL Board ?!
No comment would imply that TRFC is running the show.  Oh, wait a minute…  09

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Billy BoycePosted on4:40 pm - Nov 9, 2015


that Thomson chappie giving his tuppenceworth

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

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y4rmyPosted on4:41 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Oooft.
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

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roddybhoyPosted on4:49 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Alex Thomsom…..OOOOOOFT !!  Pressure building

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roddybhoyPosted on4:51 pm - Nov 9, 2015


ya beat me to it y4rmy lol

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nawlitePosted on5:06 pm - Nov 9, 2015


I wasn’t sure whether to post this piece from the Bear’s Den or not, so please delete it if you think it inappropriate, BP/Tris.
I’m posting it in full so I can’t be accused of cherry picking the more outlandish bits.
It is madness!! Where do you start with this?!!
—————————————————-
Mutually Assured Destruction
Posted on November 9, 2015
Hysterical is an understatement when describing the reaction from some Celtic fans(The Sevcoers) to last weeks news that HMRC have secured a victory in the latest round of the ongoing Big Tax Case.
The case is important as the final outcome will determine whether Oldcos creditors(many of whom are fans like myself) are left substantially out of pocket or will in fact be paid in full or close to it. The final outcome in this long running case will not be a Guilty or Not Guilty verdict, it will simply be an assessment of what HMRC are owed from the substantial creditors pot.
Of course our old friends The Sevcoers have a different take on events, their view for a variety of muddled reasons seems to be that this is a sporting scandal which could only be surpassed if it turned out Lance Armstrong murdered OJ Simpsons wife while she was mid-coitus with Tiger Woods.
Sadly the reality is somewhat less exciting. Rangers used an aggressive tax avoidance scheme for a period, the same scheme was legal and available to all other football clubs in the UK. Many other clubs including Celtic used the same aggressive tax avoidance for a period, some went down different routes of pointing their players and managers in the direction of another tax avoidance scheme in the form of Film investments. There are pros and cons to using aggressive tax avoidance measures like this, the obvious advantage for a football team is that you can get a bit of extra money in your players pockets with no extra cost to the club. I dont doubt or deny that the many clubs including both Old Firm sides who dabbled with such schemes made some short term cost savings through this and probably(but not definitely) there was some short term sporting advantage to using these schemes.
So if this was so beneficial why didnt everyone use them? The answer can clearly be seen in whats happened to Rangers since, for all the positives of the scheme there is one massive downside to it which our club fell foul of. It was high risk, make an error with the administration of it or if rules are retrospectively changed at the Governments whim and you could find yourself facing years of litigation from HMRC as has happened to Rangers. That latter outcome has played out, the BTC liability gave Craig Whyte his chance to take over the club, he stopped paying PAYE, we suffered insolvency then ended up in the hands of alleged fraudsters for the next 3 years. We won 3 titles in the short term but have been unable to compete for the last 5 due to it.
Clearly it wasnt cheating it was a choice, take a route which saves some money but leaves the club exposed to potentially massive future risks or dont save the money and dont have the risk hanging over you. Celtic also took the same gamble with EBTs but they relented at an early stage and made what I think has proven to be the correct choice of ditching the scheme soon after. Rangers wont be able to compete for the SPFL title again until next season after 5 years of being in the wilderness and to do so will take substantial investment from our fans and shareholders. Thats the answer as to why everyone didnt do it, it was a gamble and in this case a losing one. Personally although I understand the reasons why companies and individuals indulge in tax avoidance I find it distasteful and have resisted the temptation to indulge in it personally. For that reason I regret Rangers actions for more reasons than just the years of mediocrity its led to. Many other Rangers fans share the same view as me and perhaps those who are shouting loudest for more contrition for our errors would see that if they took a less hysterical approach.
One thing The Sevcoers are absolutely superb at is creating their own ridiculous narrative and talking about it so loudly and often that their ideas no matter how bizarre become part of the mainstream debate. They managed this in 2012 when Rangers were penalised more than any other club in world football history because of their insolvency, the hate-filled No to Newco campaign was one of the most shameful episodes our game has ever seen and led to the SPL treating Rangers as a new club who had to start in the bottom division. This was completely unprecedented and was later proven to be an error by the SPLs own LNS commission which confirmed Rangers as the same club as well as the various other governing bodies in world football.
The same tactic is being deployed now, of course a team should not be stripped of titles for making a mess of their tax affairs, insolvency was the punishment for that and all precedents again show that titles are only stripped in cases where the much more serious offence of match fixing is proven(in some cases not even then). The bizarre suggestion of stripping titles has been brought back to life by the lunatic fringe who hang around the boiler room donation hunting operation known as The Scottish Football Monitor where about half a dozen eloquent but hate driven individuals have created a narrative to be parroted by others on social media. The idea doesnt stand up to scrutiny and clearly Rangers backed by the £500k RFFF would comfortably defeat any attempt to strip titles but its been talked about enough that its made it onto the mainstream agenda again. Newspapers are seriously debating it and the SPFL have met to discuss it. We cant let this argument go unchallenged and become accepted as a normal thing to be discussed, it isnt, repeatedly trying to steal a teams titles in this way is without precedent and wouldnt be tolerated in any other country in the world.
The word cheating has been banded about far too lightly in recent days. Lets be completely clear, making an arse of tax avoidance with the consequence of 5 years without a top division title and nearly killing your club is not cheating. Bullying and pressuring the authorities constantly with the intention of damaging another club is.
So where do we go from here? Putting aside the daftness of the last few days from the Sporting Integrity cheats Rangers Football Club appear to have been let down over the last few years in various ways with illegal transfer bans, completely inadequate fit and proper tests allowing alleged fraudsters to badly damage the club and of course the ludicrous and now proven to be incorrect demotion to Division 3. Rangers fans want justice and unlike the ridiculous strip the titles campaign they appear to have legitimate grounds. Our board however have understandably made one of their goals to build bridges with the rest of Scottish football and increase our influence to a level befitting the countrys biggest club. A delicate balance needs to be achieved to ensure these two objectives are met.
My thoughts are that simply compromising that we keep our titles in return for dropping the various litigation options open to us is not acceptable. There is no legitimate basis for taking our titles so it is not an appealing or fair trade.
I do have to confess to a bit of hand-wringing in my preferred way forward, although the popular option of sue the SFA, sue the SPL and ruin them following any convictions in the criminal case sounds like fun it would take years and leave our game hamstrung at a time when it badly needs to attract sponsors. I think we should adopt the pragmatic but perhaps less satisfying approach of keeping litigation as a threat should the following conditions not be met:The resignation of all who were on the board of the SFA and SPL when the onerous conditions of the 5 way agreement were forced on Rangers and alleged fraudsters were passed fit and proper.A proper recruitment process to be followed for independent replacements for the two CEO roles.Either SPL & SFA boards completely independent of the clubs with a clear remit to improve our game or if clubs are to retain representation then a seat for Rangers in both boardrooms.Some integrity to be shown and the offensive and inflammatory campaigns to strip Rangers of their titles and other efforts to damage the club to be condemned.An apology to our club and fans.
The alternative is mutually assured destruction and unlike some I love my club more than I hate anyone elses so thats a no thanks from me.          

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on5:07 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Just a wee thought.
Assuming there is no further EBT appeal, my preference would be – at the very least – title asterisks against RFC.
But based on the dodgy behaviour we have observed coming from Hampden over the last 3+ years, and being realistic ;
To formally ‘recognise’ the cheating down Ibrox way…how about [Sir] David Murray – and Campbell Ogilvie – are banned sine die from Scottish football ?
A workable gesture to ‘try’ to placate Scottish football fans in the absence of title-stripping ?
Thumbs up / thumbs down ?

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on5:09 pm - Nov 9, 2015


With thanks to Andy  November 9, 2015   PMGB The Ibrox Code
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.html
Sportsmail Reporter
Published: 23:14, 19 June 2012 | Updated: 23:14, 19 June 2012
 Former Rangers director Dave King has said sorry to Scottish football for the EBT scandal which has plunged the game into civil war.

‘I think we should be sorry – and I certainly am sorry,’ King told Sportsmail. ‘We owe both the Rangers fans and the Scottish footballing public an apology.‘Some of the representations made have betrayed more of a victim status. But I think somebody needs to apologise.‘Clearly, that is not for Charles Green to do. But I am happy to say that I really believe we should be saying sorry and I think there is something to be sorry about.‘And as a former director when these things were going on, I am minded to do so.
‘With regard to EBTs, I was on the board so I have to take some responsibility.
‘And I follow the logic of the argument that if we lose the tax case then we probably gained some competitive advantage.
‘I believe that, on behalf of myself and most of the board members who were with me and probably agree with me, that we should apologise for that.
‘I know that the Murray Group might not say that, because it might be tantamount to admitting it.
‘But I am happy to say it as a director of the football club. And, having been there for the last couple of days, and getting a sense of the anger and anxiety, that it is absolutely appropriate for the previous regime to be sorry.’

Insisting there was no attempt to gain a deliberate competitive advantage from the use of a Murray group EBT, King added:

 ‘No one on the board, when I was there, would have had any intention of gaining an advantage.
‘But the fact is that I can understand the perception out there now.
‘And the way that Rangers have treated the authorities – instead of having a conversation with them around reparation – has been regrettable.
‘One of the things I would have looked at as part of a consortium in terms of funding is to try and fund them so that they could make some sort of commercial reparation to the other clubs.
‘But let’s do it in a way whereby it is seen to have happened and we come out of it strongly.’

 
The GSL one should have employed a stenographer to record all his utterances to ensure consistency.

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roddybhoyPosted on5:18 pm - Nov 9, 2015


stevie BC my own personal preference would be titles stripped but not awarded to any other team. An asterix in the scottish footballs “roll of honour” ( cant think what else to call it ) In the cheating years saying no award this year or whatever and aserix explaining why . So that it will always be recorded so that it never happens again.ALSO and just as important the high heid yins at the SFA who allowed this to happen knowing fine well it was cheating on a grand scale should be outed , shamed and shown the door and never set foot in scottish football again……oh and cherry on the cake Murray is stripped of his knighthood ……….

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dj7Posted on5:19 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Rangers Newco: Will robustly fight to keep titles, Time football moved on
MSM:
Keef – Time to move on ( snap!), no mechanism for SPFL to do anything ( UEFA has one), BDO will appeal ( lol), Creditors could get 100p in £ (??? heard was just 7p at best), harming Scottish football to review ???
Keevins: Deila is pants….
DJ: No one should remove medals ( no-one suggesting that),
If only we heard from fans and other clubs than old firm – so its not them vs us……

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easyJamboPosted on5:22 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Auldheid 9th November 2015 at 3:26 pm #
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I did read your post from a few days ago, but the extracts from the FTTT report were sufficient to answer the other poster’s query.

I noted that you had a transcript of the full Q & A exchange with SDM. I would be interested in seeing the evidence of other witnesses too. Do you have a link to a full transcript of all the evidence heard by the FTTT.

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redlichtiePosted on5:39 pm - Nov 9, 2015


I’m afraid todays’s RIFC statement is the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
If the other 41 clubs do not see how brazen and unrepentant these people are then they don’t deserve a penny more from their fans.
This statement and the attitude displayed therein is an insult to Scottish Football and it is, sadly, a further indictment of the game’s sporting integrity that it is not immediately rejected by the football authorities.
Scottish Football needs the game’s authorities and clubs to grow a pair. Now. And the SFM needs to make sure that our voice is heard.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on5:40 pm - Nov 9, 2015


OMG, that is a belter from Alex Thomson. 04 Thanks for posting the link guys.

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easyJamboPosted on5:50 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Some senior football officials seem to know when it’s time to go (even if they claim they have done nothing wrong). Unfortunately not in Scotland though.  From the Beeb:

German football chief resigns over corruption allegationsThe president of the German Football Association (DFB) has resigned over a Fifa payment that has resulted in a tax evasion investigation.
Wolfgang Niersbach said he was taking “political responsibility” for a 6.7m euro (£4.9m) payment to Fifa.
The sum was allegedly used to bribe officials of world football’s governing body to vote for Germany’s 2006 World Cup bid.
Niersbach said he always worked “cleanly, confidently and correctly”.
On 3 November police in Frankfurt raided the headquarters of the German Football Association over allegations of tax evasion linked to the 2006 World Cup.
The DFB denied the claims last month.
“I was involved in the bid for the 2006 World Cup from day one until the final documentation of the summer fairy tale was submitted,” Niersbach said. 
“I would like to make it clear unmistakably once again that I had absolutely no knowledge of the background of the flow of payments that are being looked into.”
The homes of Niersbach, his predecessor Theo Zwanziger, and former Secretary General Horst Schmid, were also searched.
In a statement, the prosecutor’s office said it had opened a probe into claims of serious tax evasion linked to the awarding of the World Cup to Germany in 2006.

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on5:51 pm - Nov 9, 2015


An * followed by VOID and a link to a full explanation of the circumstances why…that’ll do me!

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Jimmy BonesPosted on5:59 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Re. Abigboy @ 5:51pm
No – it must be truth & then reconciliation. Ideally a full apology from Rangers, admitting they cheated, giving up the titles and cups. Until there is such an apology the other villains – in SFA, SPFL, SMSM cannot be outed. 

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tony

tonyPosted on6:07 pm - Nov 9, 2015


redlichtie
exactly the way i feel,the arrogance is astonishing

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on6:11 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Sadly, it looks like that is the furthest thing from the minds of those in The Rangers camp…
And that is why I suggested what I did…
I cannot see them going down the truth and reconciliation route…
Can you?
They appear to have painted themselves into a corner with today’s disgraceful statement…

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Kilgore TroutPosted on6:18 pm - Nov 9, 2015


redlichtie @ 5:39pm

I don’t know for sure who is responsible for that statement but it certainly does jar.

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easyJamboPosted on6:32 pm - Nov 9, 2015


A 10am start for Charlie boy at the CoS on Thursday.  I’ll look forward to reading the accounts of the first day’s proceedings from JC and others.  At least there should be no restrictions on reporting for this case. 

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ThomTheThim

ThomTheThimPosted on6:33 pm - Nov 9, 2015


After the SPL,as then, were forced to abandon their attempt to foist Sevco on the top league and the SFL did similar, due to pressure from clubs, via their fans, the authorities took steps to avoid a repeat.
instead of all clubs having a vote on registration and other administrative matters, they instigated the SPFL Board, comprising four or five club reps, plus two officials.
i suspect that this was at the behest of many club chairmen, who were uncomfortable with the concept of listening to their fans/customers.
This Board will be worth the watching in the coming weeks.

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on6:34 pm - Nov 9, 2015


I think we may soon be putting OC/NC to bed soon. Title stripping is just the decent thing to do, the right thing to do, and the only thing to do. 
    There still has to be a punishment for it. 
40 points deduction?
http://www.viewfromgorgie.co.uk/index.php/articles/youngy-s-view/14-strip-tease

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bfbpuzzledPosted on6:42 pm - Nov 9, 2015


The official statement and the demonstration of applied madness from the sweery site surely must be intended to stiffen the resolve of the “obsessed hater moral high ground anti Ranjurs cabal’ for the rules to be applied. They cannot literally believe what they say, I am as fond of producing a counter intuitive argument as the next man but there is a limit.
Players who were ineligible were played leads to 0-3 leads to subsequent outcomes. The financial consequences are incapable of sensible calculation the sporting ones are not.
The five milky bar stars will be rendered even more risible if they refer to the old club’s championship wins after voiding of seasons. I wonder if they are obliged to wear them under the contract with SD -I would smile if so…

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wottpiPosted on6:43 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Inside The SPFL ‏@AgentScotland
David Murray must be kicking himself, all those players on EBTs when they’d have played without them… #BigDJ @ClydeSSB

That is a nice tweet following on from Alex Rae admitting that he would have gone to Rangers of £5k (IIRC) a week less than he was on.

SDM,  Scotland’s most successful business man with a constant history of being duped and this time by daft footballers.

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John ClarkPosted on6:48 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Godstrewth! Wilson doing the Bryson approach! Not illegal till the judges decide.

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Big PinkPosted on6:48 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Was in Barcelona over the weekend with my son to see some friends at Barca (and Vilarreal) – so haven’t been engaged too much with things. Apologies for that, but we are now back to business as usual.
 

Bryce Curdy 8th November 2015 at 4:06 pm # Edit

Big Pink, Tris

Yesterday morning I canvassed enthusiasm amongst the SFM community for actively seeking the support of the other clubs in demanding sporting integrity in light of Thursday’s Court of Session decision.  Essentially I was proposing 41 SFM members would each contact as many supporters clubs and Internet forums for a given club as possible.  He or she would explain the SFM viewpoint and provide a template letter(s) that the organisation or members of the organisation could then forward to the relevant chairman/board members/footballing authorities.

It appears that there is sufficient appetite amongst SFM bloggers.  Is this a project you think worthy of your time and effort?

Bryce. Sounds like a plan. Can you PM me? My others have suggested variations on this theme. I think we need to have a consensus and a position on this matter. Anyone who would like to drop at SFM Central this week, I’d be happy to hear from you to arrange a discussion.

PS I am hearing from a very reliable source close to Mr Lawwell that reports of anger and demands for justice from the other clubs reported on eTims are overstated

Yes that is my understanding as well. Overstated being a euphemism 🙁

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parttimearabPosted on6:56 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Having had the usual ex Celtic suspects rolled out to say titles should not be stripped I was astounded to find some balance popping up on the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34771999

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RPMcMurphyPosted on6:57 pm - Nov 9, 2015


The Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act 2012 has been breached at every level today.

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on6:58 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Can we have a bit of clarity please? Are the club’s angered or not? Or are they of the “enough is enough” view?
Over to you Big Pink..

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Kid Gloves

Kid GlovesPosted on7:03 pm - Nov 9, 2015


My God, Derek Johnstone on SSB. How does this guy get in front of a microphone?
Apparently if Rangers really had a sporting advantage they would have won the league every year. I’m pulling my hair out here…
I wish someone would take the conversation to the matter of illegal player registrations. 3-0 losses for every game over the entire period (in any other country but Scotland). End of story.
What is hard to understand about that? The Bryson ruling needs to be overturned. The silence on this crazy ruling from the other clubs has been appalling.
That’s how it works for every other team, amateur or professional and that’s how it should be for Rangers. 

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abigboydiditandranawayPosted on7:07 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Sorry can’t edit…clubs

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YellohoosePosted on7:27 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Had the severe misfortune of hearing Sportscene tonight and had to turn it off again. Richard Wilson, pathetic.11

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Flocculent Apoidea

Flocculent ApoideaPosted on7:29 pm - Nov 9, 2015


With Rangers’ more ordinary EBT recipients being wheeled out (by whom, btw?) to counter the argument about signing players that wouldn’t have been there without EBTs, I think it’s worth pointing out that every pound saved in paying them though EBTs, could be use towards signing and paying the better ones.

I checked, today, and saw Clyde lost 5-2 at Ibrox in the EBT era.  We were 2-1 up in the second half and lost in extra time.  All Rangers’ goals scored by EBTers. Would have played Celtic in the next round, too (if you can take it that far, hot and cold balls etc).

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on7:34 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Today’s TRFC statement is a cracker, particularly as it was released on the same day as the WADA inquiry.

The SFA/SPL/SPFL must now wonder if their ‘same club’ stance is still supportable as RIFC/TRFC shout “We arra people” down Regan & Doncaster’s ear trumpets. 

Just one other thing: ITV News managed to buttonhole Baron Coe for comments & Mark Austin even asked a few probing questions that put Seb rather on the back foot. Compare that to STV’s ‘Sevco Soundbites At Six’, where they reported the statement from Ibrox, but completely failed to differentiate between RFC2012 (IL) & RIFC/TRFC, failed to report if they had asked for an interview with a representative of the clumpany & then had the gall to ask (twice!) John Collins to comment.   

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on7:44 pm - Nov 9, 2015


A lot of anger around at the continued obfuscation and denial of facts in the SMSM. 
Write it on a bit of paper, shove it in an envelope, and post it to your club. Leave them in no uncertain terms with the knowledge that your continued support is at stake.
   Don’t get mad, Get even.  

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SmugasPosted on8:01 pm - Nov 9, 2015


That SOS extract is a gem.  Surprised there wasn’t mention of how Chris Graham has a super weapon that’s almost ready whilst Jim Traynor’s replenished armored divisions will thrust up from the south, wreaking havoc and devastation whilst, whilst……..haud on a moment, what do you mean that’s not fireworks I’m hearing?

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on8:03 pm - Nov 9, 2015


 What does the ‘Rangers’ statement say to me. That the WATP mentality remains. In a pathetic attempt to head everyone off at the pass they call for moderation,for moving on.Quite simply they are attempting to airbrush history.Is it really that hard for them to accept that they cheated everyone in Scottish football? They cannot quite accept that,in terms of ‘clout’ they are an irrelevance.Every club in Scotland now has to take a stand. Do we condemn or acquiesce to cheating.We have seen monumental moves to expose such cheating in the cycling world,in FIFA,and in world athletics.Are we really saying Scottish football is immune to such cheating? The country and its granny knows what went on at Ibrox. The time has come for all clubs to rally full square behind movements such as TSFM to expose the cheating of the establishment club and to expose the complicity of our football authorities in maintaining them.
As was said in my youth ‘CHEATS NEVER WIN’

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Cygnus X-1Posted on8:19 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Rather than send an email, which no doubt would get conveniently lost or misdirected, today I handed in a letter addressed personally to Peter Lawwell, detailing my thoughts on how as a paying fan, season ticket holder & purchaser of lots of merchandise, that essentially the game I was watching for a period of years was crooked and dishonest.
I’ve asked Mr Lawwell what he intends to do about this, and I’ve even made a couple of sensible suggestions, being as I am, a helpful person. Additionally, I’ve indicated a couple of other things that he shouldn’t do in my humble opinion. 
I haven’t made any threats about withholding/withdrawing my money from Celtic, but I am following closely,what moves, if any, they choose to do.
I believe that this course of action is the only one open to me, as a simple football fan. If SFM chooses to get involved in some capacity, then count me in for helping out, as I am thoroughly annoyed and upset at the lack of comment from the games’ authorities and leading clubs. 
Last week’s Court of Session decision is a gamebreaker, Scottish Football either deals completely & utterly with the ramifications of this decision or it doesn’t. It’s time for direct action. 
 

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wottpiPosted on8:20 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Kid Gloves 9th November 2015 at 7:03 pm

DJ’s logic seemed to be that cheating is only real cheating if you win everything in sight.

If you cheat and come second or lower then that’s not real cheating!!

What a Fud. 11

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alzipratuPosted on8:22 pm - Nov 9, 2015


This Chris Graham who now wants us all to move on…is he the same guy who has been screaming for retribution against “the Rangers haters”TM for the past three years, who called for violence upon various innocent people and who has been screaming for the blood of the Sevco 5 whom he previously and avidly supported?

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upthehoopsPosted on8:27 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Had the severe misfortune of hearing Sportscene tonight and had to turn it off again. Richard Wilson, pathetic.
===================================

I didn’t hear it but I can guess what it was like. I’m willing to guess the importance of supremacy over Celtic in terms of titles won is the overriding factor rather than countenance the possibility some of them were won unfairly. It’s hard not to conclude this is the thinking behind the stance most of the media have taken regarding title stripping. 

The statement from Ibrox earlier suggests to me there is a very real worry of perhaps even an asterisk being put against certain trophies. Why bother speaking out today? The hard of thinking half wits who disrupted the minutes silence in Dingwall yesterday had already guaranteed bad publicity for Celtic. Why did Rangers choose to put title stripping back to the top of the agenda? I assume they were part of the discussions on Friday and know how other clubs feel. 

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SmugasPosted on8:28 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Throughout all the risible stuff in that SOS extract with my particular favourite being “Rangers doing it to cut costs” (thon’s a belter) I am still intrigued what the risk is he keeps referring to. They almost died he cries.  Really?  So what almost killed you then?

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dj7Posted on8:31 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Moderators – too many comments in single post – all mixed – not structure – can we not have 2-3 posts up concurrently:
Asset Ownership
Title Stripping
EBT Legalities
MSM Failings
as there is mileage on all of these and debates and actions to work on.

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bfbpuzzledPosted on8:32 pm - Nov 9, 2015


The words of self identified Rangers fans who took the EBTS and are now saying that it made no difference they would have played for the joy of the jersey might be true, however that is unlikely to apply to the other players particularly the non scots. 
WATP is a pathology 

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John ClarkPosted on8:42 pm - Nov 9, 2015


easyJambo 9th November 2015 at 6:32 pm
‘..A 10am start for Charlie boy at the CoS on Thursday…. At least there should be no restrictions on reporting for this case. ‘
____
Apart from any inability on my part 1) to hear what folk are saying
2) to make any meaning out of anything I do manage to hear
At least, there’ll be no intimidating bruiser of a polis, such as was in the High Court. I expected at any minute to be evicted from the court if I even turned my head to look at him. His stern warning to the lassie beside us to stay awake or leave the court was quite something!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on8:43 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Nothing yet on the SFA website, so this is probably a good time to remind us Bampots of the purpose of the SFA ;
==========================
Extracted from SFA website;
“Scottish FA Strategies… 
Our goal areas touch all aspects of the game and the organisation and are focused into the following categories:
Performing and Winning
Strong Quality Growth
Better Financial Returns
Respected and Trusted to Lead ”
==========================
Would any customers like to provide any feedback on how well the SFA is delivering on the above 4 metrics ?

Arguably, the first 3 strategies cost money/investment to achieve.

Arguably, the 4th strategy costs nothing at all…except courage and honesty at Hampden ?

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on8:46 pm - Nov 9, 2015


bfbpuzzled 9th November 2015 at 8:32 pm   
   So they would have worked for less then. Why didn’t they? Minty really is a benevolent soul as well as a top business man. 
Anyway, what could, should, or might have happened is irrelevent. All that matters is what DID happen.

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on8:52 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Maybe it’s just me but today’s statement from Rangers sounds awfully like a threat, and I’m not really sure what the threat is. To be honest I rarely am with their statements. There seems to be a lot of words but little substance.

So if someone could maybe explain, if the rest of Scottish football continues to discuss these issues and maybe even does the right thing with regards the cheating, what are the consequences. What does the club actually propose to do about it.

It all seems very “toothless tiger” to me, or even petulant child. “If we don’t get our way we’re not playing any more”.

To be perfectly honest, I could live with that. The Rangers supporters may actually start another new team and build from the start. Like Gretna are doing as the old club is liquidated.

Here’s the thing, we are not afraid of you, you are not superior, you are not “the people” you’re just a very naughty …

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paddy malarkey

paddy malarkeyPosted on9:06 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Does one have to be convicted in a court of law, like wot Lester Piggot was, to have one’s awarded honour rescinded, or would stiffing HRH of her dues be sufficient ? I would have thought that tax evasion, if proven, would lead to an honour being rescinded .

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on9:08 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Corrupt official 9th November 2015 at 8:46 pm

=======================================

Precisely, Lance Armstrong or Ben Johnstone, or a myriad of other cheats may have won if they hadn’t cheated.

We will never know because they did actually cheat.

Like I said the other night, all this talk of “players may have joined the team anyway”, or “we never won everything we compete in anyway” is specious and irrelevant.

If an athlete finishes last in his first race in the Olympics and fails a drugs test then he should be treated in exactly the same way as the person who won the gold medal and was caught cheating. They should both get thrown out.

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SmugasPosted on9:18 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Just occurred to me that we haven’t heard from Ryan since Perth.  The thought occurred to me as Id be interested to hear the latest from his perspective, the less, er, radical side shall we say.

Don’t tell me he’s still cellophaned to a lamppost outside Mcdairmaid?07

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on10:11 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Widespread culture of cheating
Doping
Strip titles
Institutional cover up
Ban from competition

The first item on BBC news tonight.  Borrowed heavily form a David Low tweet substitute
RFC(IL) for Russia, Cups and Championships for Olympic medals and Scottish Football for Rio Olympics and you have what the SMSM should be reporting on.

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justshatered

justshateredPosted on10:14 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Interesting to read the statement today.
Well more like an edict was it not.
“NO, NO, NO……………………………… and NO”
Like a broken record.

The same condescension that we’ve come to expect.
The game needs “healed” and “we’ve reached out” to “move the game forward”.
Sadly for ‘The Rangers’ the game has moved forward and it has left them behind.
The only team struggling with the new order in Scotland is ‘The Rangers” themselves.

One thing they fail to recognise is the league title, like every other honour, is awarded by the the body whose trophy it is. That same authority, if information of rule breaking comes to light, can remove that award. There will be no discussion with BDO who now hold those titles. There will certainly be no discussion with ‘The Rangers’ because, as they stated last week, it has nothing to do with them.

Can you imagine the outcry in the press if the Olympic Committee had turned round and said “We are discussing with Ben Johnson to see whether he will allow us to removed his 100m Olympic title!” The ridicule that would have rained down on them would have collapsed the Seoul stadium where that fateful race was run.
If the cycling governing body had negotiated with Lance Armstrong over the striking of his Tour de France titles then there would have been a similar outcome.

The statement today reeks of a belief that “We are ready to call on all of our friends on the inside to make this go away”. Unfortunately the gene is out of the bottle and it isn’t going back in.

Another thing is regarding the sentiments within that statement today. What is it that is beyond them? What is it about winning at any cost that squares with their mentality?

I must admit that if this was my club, heaven forbid, and after all that had went on and if there is no appeal then I would be writing to them DEMANDING that they hand back the honours won in such a fashion. Perhaps that is where some fans are different. It is the sport that matters. Above all else that is what matters. Protect the sport itself and then everything else falls into place.
If there is no appeal and nothing is done then I’m out. The sport will not get another penny from me. The next thing we may have to deal with is actual doping; it doesn’t matter ……… the game was won on the park you know! That is what we are being told today.

Finally this affair actually makes our league rife for corrupt betting scams. I mean who would understand where corruption starts and SFA/SPFL “good governance” begins. This is how bad this situation now is!!

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angusmacPosted on10:15 pm - Nov 9, 2015


That’s it for me…I let my club know last week that I would no longer be financially supporting them (through a subscription to Celtic TV).  Initially elated after the Court of Sessions decision, I later sank into a darker mood as I realized that the only effect of the decision is to prove once and  for all (barring appeal) that I was cheated.  We were all cheated.
And for Celtic, as the largest and most influential club in Scotland, to meekly accept what has happened is akin to complicity.
Of course I will be closely following developments on TSFM, but if anger and demands for justice from the other clubs are ‘overstated’ (as a euphemism), i have little hope.

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Corrupt official

Corrupt officialPosted on10:15 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Homunculus 9th November 2015 at 9:08 pm #Corrupt official 9th November 2015 at 8:46 pm

Precisely, Lance Armstrong or Ben Johnstone, or a myriad of other cheats may have won if they hadn’t cheated.
    ————————————————————————————–
   Best one I have seen as an attempt at a get-out clause….. “If a ref is bribed, who can prove he wouldn’t have made the same decision anyway”.    21

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ianagain

ianagainPosted on10:16 pm - Nov 9, 2015


In the last 2 minutes I heard the Russian minister for sports saying you will achieve nothing by side lining Russia.
Somehow I recognise that phrase.

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Homunculus

HomunculusPosted on10:33 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Corrupt official 9th November 2015 at 10:15 pm

============================

That verges on the Brysonesque.

A bribe isn’t a bribe until the relevant official actually makes a decision they wouldn’t have otherwise.

What happens if they don’t have to make such a decision. Is the “bribe” returned as it wasn’t required. Or are bribes non returnable.

I wonder what the tax position is, are those potential bribes paid into a trust and then the official gets them as a “loan”. Are there side letters regarding these potential bribes. You will get your bribe even if you don’t earn it.

Maybe we should ask Mr Maugham QC.

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John ClarkPosted on11:20 pm - Nov 9, 2015


In preparation for my attendance at the Charlie legal expenses hearing, I have been looking at this and that to try to get some kind of handle on the ‘indemnity of directors’ thingy.
I looked at the Articles of Association of ‘Rangers Football plc’, which was, as we know, incorporated on 16th November 2012.
To keep all short, the article relating to  Directors’ indemnity against legal expenses include the phrase ‘… costs incurred by him in the actual or purported execution and/or discharge of his duties or in relation to them..…’
and , in the matter of taking out Insurance  to cover costs this would be in connection with that officer’s duties in relation to the Company’
On 27th November 2012, the name of the club was changed to ‘Rangers International Football Club plc’.
NEW articles of association were adopted on 12th December 2012.
And there was a change in the ‘Indemnity’ paragraphs. Again, to keep all short, in the bit about indemnity about costs of legal expenses in criminal proceedings , there is no mention of  ‘the actual or purported execution and/or discharge  of his duties in relation to the company.’
Instead, the wording is ‘……..criminal proceedings in relation to the company’.
Well, of course, I’m no lawyer. But it seems to me that that change in wording might be the wee lifeline that Charlie’s case may rely on. What he is alleged to have done might not have been in pursuit of his directorial ‘duties’ under the former Articles.
But it is certainlys  ‘in relation to’ the Company!03
Or, perhaps, m’Lord, that’s for the Court to decide.

(As ever, I do recommend that, if you have not used the Companies House website already, you should have a look, just for general knowledge purposes.)

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John ClarkPosted on11:31 pm - Nov 9, 2015


Homunculus 9th November 2015 at 10:33 pm
‘…That verges on the Brysonesque…’
_____
And is well  into Pythonesque!03

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AuldheidPosted on12:02 am - Nov 10, 2015


Angus mac 12.17

Whilst your decision will put pressure on Celtic to act you are pushing at an open door.

Celtic need a consensus from other clubs to take effective action. That takes time to develop and signs, whilst things can change, are good.

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ZilchPosted on12:17 am - Nov 10, 2015


Could the timing of the World Anti-Doping Agency report have been any better?

Has the corruption and cheating in professional sport ever been more transparent and openly exposed?

I was listening to Eilish McColgan being interviewed on BBC Radio Scotland news on the way home tonight. All the talk of suspension from competitions until their act is cleaned up, retrospective stripping of titles, the damage done to other people’s careers etc etc etc.

For just about every single aspect of the Russian doping story, you can make a straightforward analogy with the Ranger financial doping story.

This is an open target for any journalist or media news outlet – so I assume we will be reading about it in the early editions tomorrow eh?? What’s that? Deafening silence? Shurely shum mishtake??

Of course, there is absolutely nothing to be lost for our SMSM heroes having a pop at Johnny Foreigner and his failure to live up to the golden standard of British sportsmanship – eh what?

Don’t suppose the Daily Record readership in Moscow or St Petersburg is a big factor in the editorial strategy.

But for Gawds sake, you can’t possibly be serious that they should incur the wrath of The Peepil by pointing out the gloriously obvious parallels with the cheating that has gone on at Ibrox and, most importantly, the collusion of the football authorities and others who facilitated it. What aboot sales o ra paper???

You know, sometimes situations develop where it gradually becomes clear that there are two sides to history but only one of them is going to be the right side – you know, the one that wins and gets to tell the story in the end.

The SMSM are looking increasingly like ending up on the wrong side of history, and as a result, are in ever increasing danger of propelling themselves into oblivion.

Sure. You can decide to continue to take the gamble and hope that Rangers fans will continue to buy their rag because they are stupid enough to lap up any old moonbeam that the laptop loyal can imagine.

Of course, as events unfold and the reality that Rangers are, in fact, stony broke (again) and still being taken for a ride by vultures and vampires draining the corpse – as the stadium starts to literally fall apart around them – and as titles are stripped away and their Peepil in Positions of Power are removed (we can but hope) – even the most moronic of fans will probably start to notice that the Moonbeams aren’t keeping the rain off their heads in the Govan stand.

At some point the Govan loyal are going to start asking questions about the pundits and papers that led them a merry dance up the garden path (again and again and again and…)

Even the Real Rangers Men – the glib, the minty and the cardigan – even they are eventually going to have to answer to the Govan loyal.

In the meantime, by so very obviously selling their journalistic souls for a share of the succulent lamb – they are making themselves utterly irrelevant to the rest of the erstwhile paper-buying public.

I can’t stand cheats in sport, and I will not fund those who support cheats. I am not alone.

It is going to be interesting to see how the papers deal with this. There are some signs of wavering. I think they are starting to hedge their bets. Will the dam burst?

If it does, you can be sure it will have nothing whatsoever to do with a rediscovery (or in most cases finding for the first time) some sense of journalistic integrity. Nah, it will be as sure a sign as you could want that the ship is sinking – rats do that apparently.

A bigger problem for me is the allegedly impartial national broadcaster. Sportscene on sunday night reached a new low. How surprised we all were to hear the views of two former Rangers players stating, uncontested, that title stripping would not be appropriate. Sheesh!

The BBC needs to get a grip on their handling of this story every bit as much as the papers. I don’t give a damn what former players or managers think about this issue – they were not the ones paying for it. We were.

We are the people who have been cheated. We are the people that demand retribution.

And it is retribution I want. The statement from Rangers today makes it absolutely clear to me that there can be no reconciliation with the people currently in charge of that club. Any decent Rangers fans still clinging on will have been appalled by that statement.

While we wait for a definitive conclusion to the BTC legal process we must up the pressure on all of our clubs to take heed of what is happening elsewhere in sport when doping and other cheating and corruption is exposed.

Failure to deliver a clean product that has actively dealt with the failures of the past will consign Scottish Football to the grave.

Scottish Football has suffered enough. It is time to be rid of this cancer. Our clubs need to  get ready to wield the scalpel. Tainted titles removed and Sine Die bans for the guilty and the complicit.

History will not be kind to those that fail to learn the lessons of the past.

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easyJamboPosted on12:50 am - Nov 10, 2015


John Clark 9th November 2015 at 11:20 pm #
————————————————–
Alleged extract from Green’s contract (via CF) as at December 2012 (with RIFC).

Details could have been updated since then.

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John ClarkPosted on1:17 am - Nov 10, 2015


Zilch 10th November 2015 at 12:17 am #
‘..Could the timing of the World Anti-Doping Agency report have been any better?’
________
I wish I had written that post!
Because it makes the fundamental, crucial, point: sports cheating is an absolute no-no, in any sport, in any social context.
The connivance/acceptance/complicity  in sports cheating by the very people who administer any sport is shameful.
That we should have in this great wee country of ours anything like the ‘sports’ corruption of Russia…..
is only too readily to be believed, in so far as Football is concerned.

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Danish PastryPosted on6:23 am - Nov 10, 2015


As mentioned above, Derek Johnstone & Richard Wilson were in full kit mode during their ill-informed diatribes last night. 

Derek Johnstone, particularly, as one caller pointed out, was echoing the dangerous ‘veiled threat’ mentality of McCoist some years back. 

I think Keith Jackson probably places Wilson & Johnstone in the ‘foaming mouthed cabal’ catagory. If not, he should. 

PS Bravo Zilch. I heard her earlier in the day talking about the ‘ultimate betrayal’. Scottish football fans certainly do recognise that in the high heid yins

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upthehoopsPosted on7:13 am - Nov 10, 2015


I decided last night to listen to the Podcast from Sportsound. I had seen several references to the behaviour of Richard Wilson on the show. I have to say he was nothing other than a more educated sounding Craig Houston. Given he is funded by public money perhaps his BBC paymasters should remind him he has a duty to be professional.  His reasoning belonged more to a half drunken argument in a pub. 

It’s disappointing. I think Richard Wilson is a talented journalist, but he will only truly flourish if he removes himself from an environment where he is clearly heavily compromised given his partisan views regarding Rangers. 

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tayred

tayredPosted on9:04 am - Nov 10, 2015


Watching BBC breakfast news this morning and the sports guy highlights that there is yet another scandal exploding onto the scene and they cut to footage and briefly discuss the current goings on in Germany.  Why isn’t the BBC national news interested in highlighting the scandal of rampant cheating over numerous years by a erstwhile major team within the UK? 

Ok some will say because thats the job of BBC Scotland. Which is patently obvious but also nonsense. Why should the BBC highlight cheating in Germany, Russia, Switzerland etc but not Scotland? I’m sure as hell that if it was Chelsea we would have to endure it, using the same logic that isn’t a UK wide news story either. 

I’d always experienced that our Southern friends take great delight in ridiculing anything to do with Scottish sport, and football in particular. This is an open target, why so quiet? Who is keeping the NMSM quiet?  Is it really only Thommo that has the license to raise this issue? 

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SmugasPosted on9:15 am - Nov 10, 2015


Stole this comment shamelessly off another site.  I admit it requires a particular logic, but no more than the SoS effort posted yesterday.

“For the only guy to have brought £42 million to the party (18m intentionally to Lloyds, 24m unintentionally via Withey’s insurance company) he’s still helluva unpopular!”

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AuldheidPosted on9:27 am - Nov 10, 2015


A Funny Thing Happened to me before heading to the boozer.

I was listening to SSB I know I know and heard both HK and DJ say it was some Law Lord or other who said EBTS were used for sporting advantage. I immediately sent a Tweet to Gerry McCulloch to correct them as I knew he knew that the statement came from SDM having provided him with that information last week. (I copied the FTT extract on to SFM and linked him to it) He later said he had the info from another source  but he knew the words came from SDM.

On checking Twitter later he accused me of something or other and muted me saying I was losing credibility.
Perhaps my encouragement from a week before the last one to spend an hour reading up on the SFM blogs which he refused to do had something to do with it but last night for me was a new low although I think they might later have said it was Mr Black who used the words but don’t know of SDM got a mention or is verboten. 

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wottpiPosted on9:31 am - Nov 10, 2015


Meanwhile over at Tynecastle Ms Budge doesn’t mess about as it is being reported 10 of the ‘young team’ have been given lifetime bans by the club.

It could be argued that it is a rather harsh punishment on daft young laddies but best that wrongdoing is nipped in the bud early by the relevant authorities as opposed to letting things drag on unresolved for years. You know how that can turn out!!!

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broganrogantrevinoandhoganPosted on9:44 am - Nov 10, 2015


Good Morning.

I listened to the public broadcasting service of this country last nght and could scarcely believe what I heard in terms of what passes these days in the name of journalism.
It is one thing for footballers to express and opinion on sporting matters, but another altogether when footballers are put on the spot and repeatedly asked vague, general, and leading questions and invited to answer.
Any sportsman, be they footballer, athlete, swimmer, cyclist or whatever will always tell you that the battle is one or lost fairly and squarely on the field of play and in open competition.
That is the way sport should be and that is the way those who participate would always want it to be.
However, if the same sportsmen were to be asked, ” what should happen if it turns out that going by the rules of the game your opponent was not eligible to particpate at all?” might that bring about a different answer as opposed to the “should people be stripped of their medals?” mantra.
Last night’s “debate” on Radio Scotland completely ignored the fact that every other club in Scotland during the period concerned were required to comply with the corporate laws laid down by the SFA and the then SPL or SFL.
If they did’t they were punished accordingly.
Think of Spartans who did not fill a form out correctly or misplaced a signatue. They suffered the ultimate punishment on that oocasion.
Richard Wilson put up a staunch argument that A) EBT’s were not per se illegal and that B) at the time their use was not an intentional crime as Rangers, or those in charge of Rangers, believed that what they were doing was correct and lawful.
This is an argument which ignores fact, lacks analysis and any form of “common sense”.
EBT’s are perfectly legal items or mechanisms – provided that they are used for a legal purpose. As soon as you seek to misuse any otherwise legal item — whether it is a chequebook, a credit card, a loan application, a knife, a spade or a hammer – for an illegal purpose then the item concerned becomes a key part in an illegal scheme.
That is common sense — and the law.
So EBT’s are legal — but they automatically become null and void ( and therefore unlawful ) if they are used as part of a contractual arrangement designed to avoid tax. Who says this? Well try Paul Baxendale Walker during the course of his interview with the BBC in the mend who sold the jerseys documentary. He will do for a start.
Anyone selling a company an EBT scheme will spell it out loud and clear ” If you operate this the wrong way it becomes illegal” so you are put on notice that it may well be illegal for any kind of contractuallly related pay!
Dead clear!
This then brings me in to te state of Rangers “knoweldge” of wrongdoing.
In the course of the FTT decision, the Court of Session findings and in the Lord Nimmo Smith report, one thing was unanimous and that was that officials of Rangers Football Club repeatedly lied when it came to the existence of second contracts. They denied they existed, swore blind there were no such contracts, and so deliberately and calculated decived the SFA, The SPL, HMRC and anyone else who asked.
later, this was all admitted.
Why would you lie about something you believe to be legal and above board?
So who knew about these second contracts that did not exist – and who in the footballing world sat back and said absolutely nothing about them in the knowledge that they existed yet were being denied and hidden?
Well among the list of EBT beneficiaries and those who were responsible for signing players in this fashion there is:
A former president of the SFA.
A Former director of Hearts Football Club
A former director of Ross County Football Club
Two former managers of the Scotland International team
Several people who have managed clubs in Scotland, England and elsewhere.
At least three managers who have manged major teams in Europe.
A former Dutch and Russian international manager and a French Manger.
Numerous former captains of Scotland.
Numerous International Footballers from various countries.
Numerous people who have sat on SFA and SPL committees respnsible for governing the game.
In short the EBT list reads like a chapter of the Who’s Who of Scottish Football at the time?
And why were Rangers paying a former manager and ex Scotland captain many thousands of pounds almost a decade after he left their employment?
Anyone think that is odd? Does it smell fishy and worthy of looking into?
Not one single journalist has ever asked any of these people what they think about the fact that the footballing authorities in this country were repeatedly lied to about the existence of the side contracts or the hidden payments?
Mark Daly did attempt to ask questions and none of these people were prepared to answer anything. They made no comment. He described it as an Omerta!
Nobody has asked any football agent about the fact that no other club in Scotland paid players this way?
Nobody ever asked any of the recipients what they thought about being unable to sign players this way when they became managers or what they thought about having two contracts?
Nobody ever asks those at Hampden what they think about the findings of the Court of Session about the so called obvious common sense interpretation of what was going on?
The SFA have full access to a host of lawyers who sit in the judicial panel. What do theu think?
What does Andrew McKinlay – the legally qualified corporate compliance officer think?
No, let’s just ask the players! In fact let’s just ask the players who received the money they are sure to give an objective and fair minded point of view.
Every club has to renew its licence to play each and every year. The SFA rules state that each club shall name a person or persons who will be responsible for making sure that all the documents and submissions are compliant with the rules — that there is nothing hidden, nothing left out and so on.
How come we never hear who that perosn was during the appropriate years and what role he played in failing to uncover the second contracts and the unlawful — yes unlawful Richard — payments to players?
The reason they were unlawful? Because either they were bot disclosed ( a breach of the rules ) or they were paid by a third party trust ( a separate breach of the rules ). Take your pick.
Scottish Football cannot afford to just cover this up and move on. There will be nothing to move on to.
The footballing public in Scotland now widely believe that for a decade at least football was fixed, there were deliberate rule breaches which were covered up, hidden by the club and kept secret.
Many believe that there are those within the SFA who are so afraid of this coming out that they have decided to bury it as deep as they can and will be reluctant to look at the whole picture for fear of uncovering a can of worms that the public won’t like.
Well the public have a really sour taste in the mouth as it is and they do not trust the footballing governance in this country.
For a number of years after the doping scandals in cycling, various networks, sponsors, advertsiers and so on all walked away from the Tour de France leaving it a far poorer event in terms of financial sponsorship and so on.
I would not pay a single penny into Scottish Football if I thought that there was no proper Governance and will be no proper governance.
Like the players or ex players — I am all for sport being won or lost on the field of play, but when there is an organised attempt to flaunt rules, gain advantage, cover up known and deliberate rule transgressions and it is simply accpeted that those who perpetrate such acts can simply be allowed to carry on as normal by those who govern the sport, then that is the day I decide that this has ceased to be sport at all as I know it.
Given those involved, those who received the payments, negotiated the contracts, submitted the documents and tried to cover them up, if the SFA and SPFL don’t allow a fully independent enquiry into this then Scottish Football is a thing of the past and Hampden Park can truly rebill itself as a Museum where you go to look at something that used to happen but is no more.
Then again, that museum could be housed in the Art Gallery or one of the other listed buildings we have in Scotland which is worth preserving.
Hampden, Celtic Park, Ibrox, Firhill, Easter Road, Tynecastle, Pittodrie, Dens, Tannadice and various other grounds are all perfectly suited for housing developements or community assets.
They have no future as sports stadiums if there is no sport worth speaking about.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on9:48 am - Nov 10, 2015


The statement from the Ibrox club sums up their and it’s fans whole mentality.  Mr Wilson and Derek Johnstone proved this live on the radio last night as both were shocking in their relentless support to the tax evading regime at Ibrox. DJ was inciting threats boycotts the lot quite openly, shocking he should be brought to task and IMHO SSB should be taken off the air till it is revamped in a balanced sort of way minus the over the top biased pundits that have played at Ibrox in the past.  My taxes on the other hand help fund the BBCsportsound and that really annoys me.  They are not balanced ever when it comes to recent reporting on the Govan clubs.
If there is no appeal the illegal use of EBT’s gave the unfair advantage and all trophies should be stripped it is quite simple really.  If the club or it’s fans accepted the truth and apologize for what they have done in the way of damage we would admire them for that, but we all know this will NEVER happen so for the level of cheating (kinda of the radar level) I would banish the club from football as this punishment would merit such a penalty. The Ibrox club and it’s fans show no remorse as in their eyes everyone hates them and they have done no wrong.  So when titles and trophies get removed how do you think they will react.  I never want to see them on the field of play again as they are what they are and believe me they will only get worse. Do we or the Scottish game really need them or their team. I think not.  I may be the only one that feels this way but I love my sport and they IMO are not really a sporting entity that I want in football considering what they have done (and let us not forget their signing policy for over 100 years that was never challenged).
 

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wottpiPosted on9:55 am - Nov 10, 2015


Auldheid 10th November 2015 at 9:27 am

Would have to listen again to see if SDM was mentioned but yes there was some clarification that the words were spoken by a witness at the FTTT .

If fact at one point McCulloch made reference to him being distracted by twitter so maybe that was you!

Give Keevins his due he quoted the DCK statement I posted the other day from the 2012 Daily Mail re the man from SA following the logic of the argument about probably gaining a competitive advantage and apologising for the actions of the club.

It is a civil matter so the whole thing is based on the balance of probabilities.

Therefore we have Mr Black, DCK and the CoS judgement all making reference to the ability of the EBT system to attract certain players to assist in outdoing others in a competitive sporting endeavour.

Mr Doncaster has recently said in relation to Livingston  “The tax default and reporting rules are an integral part of maintaining a fair league competition.”

All the major players know that ‘on the balance of probabilities’ it is going against Rangers and the game is up but yet those running the game obfuscate and procrastinate about doing anything about it. They can’t even bring themselves to put out a holding statement.

Personally I couldn’t give a toss about the title stripping but I do believe there has to be a clear and definitive statement coming from the footballing authorities with regard to how the matter is to be dealt with (while clearing up the old/new club issue at the same time)  and that some form of punishment is issued as a warning to others in the future and so that the game can truly move on.

We have stayed with this for a good few years now and the tide is turning in our favour, we must not let the authorities sweep this under the carpet. If it is calls for title stripping that gets something done, then so be it, as long as fans of other clubs keep fighting the good fight and hold the authorities and their own clubs to account.

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valentinesclown

valentinesclownPosted on10:40 am - Nov 10, 2015


Another thing why is it only ex Rangers and Celtic players who seem to comment (in oldco favour in the argument of it was won on the pitch and it was  11 v 11 p***).  Were no other teams or players involved over that period of time or don’t they matter.. 

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