Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?

A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove

At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.

To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.

The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.

Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.

2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.

On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.

St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.

By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.

It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.

Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.

Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.

In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.

So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.

Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.

Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.

European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.

Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.

Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.

It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.

Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.

By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.

Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.

Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.

So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’

The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.

Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.

Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.

We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.

It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.

Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.

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Tom Byrne

About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,744 thoughts on “Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?


  1. essexbeancounter: Paul Baxendale-Walker is also a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, albeit not the one in Scotland.


  2. liveinhop says:

    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 22:00

    Donno if it’s been mentioned, but heavy tribute from Catalan TV.

    http://www.esport3.cat/video/4327390 get the volume up full tilt
    ==========================================================================

    I am sure I am reading the body language of Fabregas correctly in the dugout…and I am sure that even with is considerable experience, he looks more than a tad apprehensive…and I am trying to be polite…!


  3. Lord Wobbly – agree – what do all the other foreigners in Benidorm think about the “fabric of Scottish society” behaving like this? I would have posted the links here but thought better than clogg the blog up with this so just pointed out where they are to be viewed.

    I used to watch Robbie Coltrane mimicing Mason Boye thinking it was so outlandish it could not be true (I also read he got many threats because of his protrayal of the character – never mind the threats to AT then lol)

    If I were a German and saw this nonsense, would it make me more or less inclined to do business with Scotland? Probably more likely to find a more civilise country…….which to be be frank would not be hard, after watching that lot “enjoy” their holiday in the sun. Bairns strapped to the chairs with a coca cola while the adults dance on the tables to the Sash – whaes like us?

    Naebody – thank you!!!!


  4. ordinaryfan says:

    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 23:41

    Rate This

    essexbeancounter: Paul Baxendale-Walker is also a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants, albeit not the one in Scotland.
    ==============================================================

    Ordinary…I thought he was member of the Law Society but had been struck off for “unprofessional conduct”…the details of which I am sure are all over the web.

    And to think that…had it not been for his “tax planning” scheme(s), all apprently perfectly legal at the time of their inception,none of us would be in this little section of t’interweb at present!


  5. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20262297

    St.Johnstone chairman Steve Brown calls for a wage cap….

    Something his dad has been saying for the best part of 20 years. See the below quote from Geoff Brown in June 2001.

    “Wage demands by players and agents are ever escalating and the club has again lost players by being unable to meet their demands. But St Johnstone will continue to be run in a proper manner, which means that we will not enter into contracts which we simply cannot afford. Maybe I’ll be accused again of being tight with the money but I’d rather St Johnstone had that reputation and remained solvent, than went bust by spending money we simply don’t have.”

    If only a few other clubs had listened…


  6. Why is Hector applying to wind up Hearts for a measly £1.79m when they allowed RFC to run up a bill of £14m last season and did not apply to wind up them.?
    Is it because Hearts fans do not pose a threat to civil unrest?
    Think about it
    Hearts could be in liquidation before this time next week
    While HMRC even allowed RFC to choose a bent Administrator
    It certainly looks like only one club is( now was) entitled to special treatment as far as HMRC were concerned
    Well
    HMRC may have made a rod for their own back
    Because if Sevco fall behind on their taxes before the end of the season HMRC better treat them the same as Hearts were treated this week


  7. M8Dreamer

    The current situation at Hearts has absolutely nothing to do with the Rangers Tribute Act currently playing in SL3 and any subsequent loss of income.
    When Romanov bought Hearts they were approx £21 million in debt and during his ownership this has risen to approx £40 million, before being currently reduced to approx £24 million by Romanov refinancing and cancelling some of the debt.
    In the seven years as owner, Romanov has consistently spent more money than they have earned, generally by paying excessive salaries and contracts to mediocre footballers.
    At no time have Hearts attempted to live within their means and therefore this current financial situation is all of their own making.
    Unless some mysterious white knight comes along and buys the club and wipes out the current debt, there is no possibility whatsover that they could trade out of this financial mess in the next 5 years or longer.
    The club has been mismanaged for a number of years in the pursuit of a prize that was not obtainable and the Hearts supporters went along for the ride, thinking nothing could go wrong.
    Even now with the possible threat of liquidation, there is hardly one word of dissent from any Hearts supporters towards Romanov who has sold them down the river.
    The last thing that any Hearts supporter should do at this present time, is to part with any money towards the Share Issue, as it can only be a matter of time before the club goes into Administration or Liquidation.
    Any money that the wish to invest should be put into a Hearts Supporters Trust fund, that can be utilised to purchase what assets of the club they can afford, to ensure that the club has a future, irrespective of which division or ground that they would be playing in.
    Hearts supporters require to wake up and smell the coffee without further delay, or they will have no club to support in the future.


  8. M8Dreamer

    As stated by Goosygoosy 00.01hrs, HMRC would appear to be treating Hearts completely differently from Rangers Football Club with regards to late/non payment on Income Tax/National Insurance.
    No Business of any size would be allowed by HMRC to delay payment of Income Tax/National Insurance for a period of 9 months and it can only be assumed that HMRC were an integral part
    of the Rangers Football Club corruption and subsequent cover up by the “Scottish Establishment”


  9. Lord Wobbly says:
    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 23:21

    30 seconds was enough, oh dear, they are the ppl apparently


  10. M8 Dreamer

    Whether Scottish Football clubs pay their players £100/week, £1000/weeek, £10000/week or more should be completely dependent on that individual clubs ability to pay the agreed contract amounts.
    For football to survive in Scotland or any other country, it is imperative that “every” club has a salary level of approx 60% of their annual turnover, to ensure that each club can stand on its own two feet.
    The days of football clubs with a salary level in excess of their annual turnover must be over or football will just die.


  11. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but the ‘different’ treatment by HMRC is because of how different the financial situations are:

    Firstly – Rangers. If HMRC had issued a winding up order when Whyte first started not paying PAYE/VAT, then Rangers would most likely have just liquidated the assets off, leaving HMRC with nothing, and no real way of investigating anything. HMRC had all the debt, so there was nothing to be gained by winding them up – better to let them tie the noose round their neck so they could go about investigating the real problem people – eg Murray. You also have to look at the level of debt. Back in December we were talking about a BIG tax case of 20m. It is possible, HMRC were thinking that with the Whyte floating charge and the Ticketus debts that they could have fallen short of the 25% needed to control the administration outcome. By allowing Whyte to go on so long allowed the tax to build. The hearing at the end of January for the BIG tax case probably gave HMRC the confidence to pull the plug in february, knowing by then that the potential debt was a lot more than the 25% needed.

    Hearts on the otherhand is different. HMRC is a ‘minor’ creditor. The majority of debt is owed to Romanov. By issuing the winding up order it puts Romanov in a difficult position. Either he pays the tax, or he losses the best part of 20m pound when the club gets liquidated/enters admin. There is no point in HMRC allowing the unpaid tax to escalate as they will not have the majority of the debt regardless of how long Hearts refuse to pay tax. HMRC are hoping to call Romanov’s bluff and force payment.


  12. A few questions on the Hearts situation:

    The winding up order. Does this force it straight to liquidation, or can they enter administration first? Or does the winding up order prevent liquidation?

    It was my understanding that Hearts could enter administration, Romanov could ‘buy’ the stadium for 10m (its fair market value) reducing his debt to circa 15m, and then agree a 1p in the pound CVA. This would leave a debt free, probably fan owned Hearts, albeit without a stadium, which Romanov could sit on until property prices get back to what was being offered back in 2003 for Tynecastle. Meanwhile he could lease back to Hearts at 500k/year.

    However, if HMRC can force it straight to liquidation what happens to Romanov’s floating charge? Can he still take the stadium by offering ’10m’ which would be offset against his debt? Or would the liquidator only accept offers of cash which could be shared between all creditors?

    My understanding is that if HMRC don’t get paid before administration/liquidation, Romanov holds all the cards anyway?

    Am I right? Or did I not study hard enough during the RTC school of insolvency?


  13. essexbeancounter says:
    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 23:26

    Agrajag says:

    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 18:55

    essexbeancounter says:
    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 17:48

    Not really the same as ICAS being involved though is it.
    =====================================================================
    Agrajag…my post distinctly refers to “members”…I make no reference to the Institute a a body…I have no right to do so whatsoever!

    =================================

    That would be “No” in layman’s terms.

    Thanks.


  14. essexbeancounter@23:50

    I’m genuinely astounded, it shows how pulling at one tiny thread of truth can unravel so much.


  15. stevensanph says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 01:07

    1

    0

    Rate This

    A few questions on the Hearts situation:

    The winding up order. Does this force it straight to liquidation, or can they enter administration first? Or does the winding up order prevent liquidation?

    ========================

    The winding up order is liquidation. It doesn’t prevent it, it causes it.

    However they can place themselves into administration to stop that happening.

    In essence a business placing itself into administration blocks everything else. It is a way to try to keep the company alive. Not the business the actual company.

    The ways out of administration are basically paying your debts, agreeing a CVA (paying some of your debts) or liquidation.

    Apologies to the cognoscenti.


  16. Agrajag says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 01:26

    Sorry, my last sentence there was wrong. It was meant to say can administration prevent the liquidation.

    So I’m right. If Romanov decides not to pay, a day before the winding up order he can place Hearts into administration, and then control the process because he has the majority of the debt. If nothing happens, the club winds up in liquidation and Romanov takes the stadium.

    Surely Administration is a great outcome for Hearts fans if Romanov is willing to take a haircut. The ‘shareissue’ money can be used to buy a debt free club, albeit, one without a stadium.


  17. stevensanph says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 01:31

    I don’t know about timescales like ” a day before the winding up order” but the basic principal of putting a business into administration blocking other action is correct.

    The general idea is to give the company a chance to sort itself out, with new people running it (temporarily). If that can keep the company alive and viable, with people still in jobs it is viewed as a good thing.

    I make no comment on the morality of it or the fairness to the creditors. Remember, a CVA will only go through if they (as a majority) agree it.

    Heaven forfend anyone would abuse that system. Or use it to sell assets under value to keep a business (not the company) alive.


  18. ordinaryfan – how was the timing for the Sheffield Utd Las Vegas Sands – any conneciton with CG’s time there?


  19. exiiledcelt: That’s the single connection I cannot find. Maybe Imran Ahmed or Anthony Batty. It’s there somewhere!


  20. Stunney – welcome back – have missed the “morning” (my afternoon) papers!!


  21. As instructed TSFM…
    Stuart Cosgrove’s well written and scathing blog is still rippling over the blogosphere and now because of the Hearts crisis, his detractors (GIRUY targets), have an easy ‘in’ to try and undermine his robust rebuttal on their ‘Armageddon’ line. Now, I’m pretty sure Stuart knew what he was getting himself into, when he took it upon himself to embarrass people like Traynor and his Branch Sevconians, Football’s Governing bodies and various media hacks – both verbally and in print. But he will have seriously pissed off some very influential and vindictive people in the broadcasting world; it’s now a slam dunk that a few of these compromised lackeys, hacks and PR folk will be trying their damnedest to malign and derail him at every opportunity. And it would not surprise me if someone tries to get him ‘bumped’ from that Ibrox friendly, radio phone-in show (The Beeb’s). Having a high media profile, a new ’internet bampot’ diploma, (to add to his many others), co – presenting 3 BBC radio programmes and constantly challenging lies and spin, has seriously upset our MSM’s balance of bias.
    For the rest of us though; what’s not to like about a committed fan, who’s doing a decent job of highlighting the pernicious side of Scottish football, it also helps that he is diametrically opposed to the views he constantly hears oozing from Jabba’s jowls.


  22. stunney says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 03:21
    4 2 Rate This

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/rangers-hearing-deferred-by-spl.19373018

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The headline implies that the hearing has been deferred. The body of the text states that, although it is likely (due to the lawyer being involved in a car crash), no decision has yet been taken.

    And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.

    Hmmm….lawyer investigating Rangers injured in car crash….

    …nah, I’m sure that’s a conspiracy theory too far.

    Isn’t it? 😯


  23. Jabba wants an emergency reconstruction.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/if-hearts-go-down-watch-other-clubs-1424368#.UJxEwXjjHpM.twitter

    If Hearts go down watch other clubs collapse like dominoes

    8 Nov 2012 00:01
    THE possible collapse of Hearts should not be rejoiced by anyone as another club exiting the SPL can only spell disaster for Scotland’s top flight.

    Rudi Skacel of Hearts lifts the Scottish Cup last season
    HEARTS won’t be the last.

    They are swaying on the edge of oblivion but there are at least two other clubs only one step, one unexpected bill, behind them.

    Despite the bravado and bombast of some fans and commentators who stupidly, and crassly, responded to the troubles of Rangers with glee rather than dismay and alarm, Scottish football is not booming. The exact opposite is the truth.

    It isn’t Armageddon, not yet anyway. But it is a nightmare, most certainly for Hearts fans.

    Although their club’s financial meltdown can’t be blamed entirely on the loss of revenue caused by Rangers’ plight, there should be no doubt the Ibrox club’s absence from the SPL is having a debilitating effect. Not only on clubs but on broadcast and corporate partners as well.

    Confidence in the top flight has flown and this rejoicing in and gloating when a club is dragged over the edge by the debt weight makes no sense. It is malicious and illogical.

    Do not be fooled by the cheerleaders because the SPL cannot afford to lose another batch of fans.

    If Hearts crumble others will surely fall but for the dimwitted and those who find perverse delight in the anguish of others, let’s try to simplify things by asking one question: Would Hibernian’s finances be diminished significantly by the loss of two Edinburgh derbies?

    You bet. And remember, only last week Easter Road chairman Rod Petrie made it clear if fans want manager Pat Fenlon to be active in the transfer market they’ll have to start turning up in larger numbers.

    And only yesterday Sky announced they’d be televising the Scottish Cup fourth-round tie between Hibs and Hearts which was hardly surprising.

    After all, this is the biggest derby the Scottish game has to offer, and we can all be certain that without the Edinburgh fixture the broadcasters, who have already cut back on their financial support because of where Rangers are, would pull the plug on their SPL deals.

    They’d still have Dundee derbies, provided the Dens Park club stay in the SPL, but those fixtures won’t tempt Sky, or anyone else to keep paying out.

    Scottish football would have lost just about all appeal and we would be witnesses to the domino effect.

    This is precisely why the crisis facing Hearts should be causing alarm in more than the Easter Road boardroom but because of the twisted nature of large numbers of fans there will be the suspicion Vladimir Romanov is bluffing.

    They’ll reason the old Russian-born Lithuanian banker just wants more cash from his club’s supporters before he puts any more into his club but the evidence suggests he won’t.

    It is more likely Romanov won’t throw in any more. Surely it’s been clear for more than a season he’s been struggling to divert enough cash towards Gorgie where players and employees no longer know if they’ll be paid on time.

    Hearts are already serving a 60-day registration embargo because of these failures and the wages are due again in eight days. What chance now of them being paid, not on time but ever?

    Romanov’s steel plant workers in Bosnia haven’t been paid since July and they’ll probably be on a pittance so yesterday’s revelation is unlikely to be part of some elaborate bluff.

    Hearts went public because they had no choice. They laid it on the line and by spelling out the seriousness of their current plight they weren’t just making a statement, they were sending out a begging letter.

    After 138 years they are broke and going under.

    They are pleading for help with director Sergejus Fedotovas stressing the club’s future is in the fans’ hands.

    His message was distressing and made it clear Tynecastle could be padlocked after Hearts’ match against St Mirren a week on Saturday after it emerged HMRC have issued a winding-up order over an unpaid £450,000 bill. This on the back of the club’s recent admission they are facing a tax tribunal over a £1.75million claim.

    Hearts, who owe £22m to Romanov’s investment company Ukio Banko Investicine Grupe, are currently trying to raise £1.79m through a shares issue.

    UBIG have scaled back dramatically on their support funding and are unlikely to plough in any more but would Romanov risk putting Hearts into administration to save them knowing he’d then lose control of the one asset, Tynecastle?

    On the other hand it must be doubtful if he’d be willing, or allowed by UBIG investors, to continue running up the debt owed to them by keeping Hearts alive. Barely.

    Hearts didn’t say they were begging but did point out clearly that they are seeking “emergency backing” and stressed “this is not so much a request as a necessity”.

    It was an impassioned plea. “This isn’t a bluff, this isn’t scaremongering. This is reality.

    “Discussions on whose name is above the door and talk about how the money has been spent is all natural but quite simply worthless at this moment in time.

    “The only valid debate now is how can you help the club.

    “Without your help now, we could be entering the final days of the club’s existence. There are limited options for the directors to take to avoid the catastrophic consequences that a funding shortfall would mean for the club.”

    If Hearts are put into administration then under the SPL’s new rules they’d be hit with a 17-point penalty, their players would be sold off when the winter transfer window opens and relegation would be inevitable. But last night Tynecastle sources were saying it could be worse than that. The club could die, was their grim message.

    In fact, Hearts’ statement made the severity of the situation clear, warning we could be witnessing “the start of a painful process that will affect every one of us and could lead to far more damaging actions that threaten the very existence of the club”.

    Others are already under threat – Dunfermline asked Falkirk to bring a midweek game scheduled for next April forward to last weekend just to help put money in the coffers – but without Hearts and the dire consequences which would follow, Scottish football would be in meltdown.

    If Hearts can’t fulfil their fixtures the SPL would be thrown into turmoil.

    Armageddon might then be upon us and the only solution might be emergency league reconstruction.


  24. Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug
    Very worrying times for #Hearts. Just spoke to someone close to the situation. Says if HMRC money is paid it would be a ‘minor miracle.’


  25. Lord Wobbly says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 07:56

    And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.
    ——
    Wobbly – that’ll be adverts generated by your googling and surfing habits. I get an ad about mobile phones for some reason (which is funny, because I have an old Honda myself and spend half my time searching the net for spares for it!).

    I’d assumed that all this faffing about with releasing the FTTT result (how long does it take to redact a document to DPA standards, even 300 pages of it, as a matter of priority?) was to try and delay it until after the SPL hearing had started.

    What they gonna do now?

    (Hope the car crash boy is OK.)


  26. Any feedback from the Sevco press conference that was scheduled for yesterday?


  27. bl00tered says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:19

    See Sandy Jardine’s threat to remove himself from the SFA Hall fo Fame….
    ——

    According to Wikipedia, he’s in it (the SFA Hall of Fame, rather than the Scotland Caps one) …

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Football_Hall_of_Fame

    Sardine would do well to remove himself from it anyway, being that he’s shown himself to be such a twisted f@nny recently.


  28. ‘The tax money is a different issue all-together. I do not deny that the Rangers had history and lots of it and can lay claim to it, however it is what it is HISTORY.’

    _________________________

    Of course history must include all to be believable. It must include 12 years of cheating on a ‘off the radar scale’.
    It must include the dozens of small businesses, and individuals who were destroyed by that cheating, it must include the relinquishing of all titles stolen in those 12 years. It must include the decent clubs who, to compete with this cheating, were brought to their knees, if not totally obliterated altogether.


  29. Its all pretty obvious how the wheels of justice turn in our little country

    Delayed FTT result = delayed LN enquiry = delayed Sevco fundraising = Sevco Administration
    = Sevco liquidation =Sevco Newco with no transfer ban looking for a home
    Meanwhile
    Hearts Administration =Hearts liquidation= Armageddon without Sevco Newco in SPL

    = league reconstruction = Newco Sevco replaces Hearts in SPL

    But to ensure justice is seen to be done

    Newco Hearts + no lunatic fringe = No 3rd div

    =Newco Hearts in East of Scotland league
    .
    ………..If they provide a hefty bond to SFA


  30. Senior says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:24

    It must include the dozens of small businesses, and individuals who were destroyed by that cheating,
    ——

    I throughly agree, Senior.

    But … is there any evidence of people actually going out of business on account of not being paid by RFC(IL)?


  31. It depends on how you view the non-payment of tax Angus, there are currently schools, swimming pools and other public services being closed due to lack of funds. I see them as a functioning business.

    If Rangers, Hearts or any other organization or individual refuses to live within their means, which lead to them defaulting on tax then as far as I am concerned, they are indirectly responsible for the closure of a public service which normally leads to someone losing a job.

    So I would argue, even if I cannot pin a specific school closure to Rangers, that there is evidence that people have gone out of business because there is not enough revenue available from the source responsible for generating that revenue (HMRC). There is not enough because some businesses are not paying what they are owed. One of those responsible is Rangers Football Club.


  32. goosygoosy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:31

    Goosy, shirley they cannot put sevco in the SPL, that would cause chaos in the fixtures in the bottom tier as well. Would’nt the clubs have to vote? I am sure there is a lot of chairmen in the first and second divisions who would have something to say.
    Anyway if they are shoogled in anytime sooner, and my Club do and say nothing, then I will be finished with Scottish football, even after attending the Barcelona match less than 48 hours ago and witnessing one of the best games ever. It will break my heart.


  33. Senior says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:24

    History must include the good the bad and the ugly and was it just 12 years I wonder? A small part of that cheating went on I’m sure outwith that club but on their behalf, is that a conspiracy theory?


  34. I feel that a scaremongering MSM will now actively support administration for HMFC as being for the good of the club, while, to safeguard the future of other clubs at risk, using this argument to promote their agenda of getting Sevco into the SPL asap to prevent Armagedddon 2 – ignoring the fact that Hearts’ case is completely different from that of the Govan ‘mob’.

    However, thankfully, they have no actual power/influence – this lies with the SPL/SFL clubs who have already shown their hand.

    Off topic, in terms of achievements, Sevco have still to emulate the two other Govan clubs (St Anthonys and Benburb, who have had varying degrees of success in the junior game) before setting their sights on anything higher.

    As a Celtic fan, with great memories of many ‘jousts’ with The Jam Tarts’ over the years, I wish them all the best.


  35. Palacio67 says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 10:04

    goosygoosy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 09:31
    =====================================================================
    I’m not sure of the legalities but here’s how I see it.
    If HMFC went into administration they’d be deducted 17pts but would still be in the SPL(leave relegation for another day).They can worry about next season later,right now they just have to survive.Romanov would have to write-off nearly all the debt but surely could retain the assets due to securities held.HMRC would get next to nothing.
    If liquidated,assets are sold to satisfy the creditors(Mostly Romanov).Hard but not impossible that someone would pay any real money at this time so Romanov could probably retain the assets.HMRC still get next to nothing.
    These might not be satisfactory options but I think they’re realistic.
    Jabba and his ilk,however,see this as the ideal opportunity to shoehorn TRFC into the top league.He obviously thinks that the fans who wouldn’t accept the cheating last time round will just roll over this time.They’ve learned nothing!.
    Let’s hope the SFA/SPL/SFL have learnt.If not then armaggedon may well be round the corner after all


  36. madbhoy24941 says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 10:03

    It depends on how you view the non-payment of tax Angus, there are currently schools, swimming pools and other public services being closed due to lack of funds. I see them as a functioning business.
    ——

    Aye, I know. I do see that side of it clearly.

    Meanwhile, I haven’t had time to go over yesterday evening’s post yet. Is everyone aware that you can go and preview your own “share certificate” at the following site now:

    http://www.buyrangers.org/

    You’d be putting in your £125 to buy part of “Rangers Football Club”, mind – whatever that is! 🙂


  37. Hi guys – have spent the last couple of days understandably immersed in Hearts issues to think about much else however an amazing win for Celtic the other night, really quite incredible, well done!

    Regards matters at Tynecastle here’s my current thoughts on the situation although the initial response by fans has been tremendous and unlike the Rangers we seem to want to do everything possible to pay our way and keep our club alive with a Sevco solution very much the last resort nuclear option unlike Rangers where it seems to have always been Plan A.

    Anyway here is what I posted earlier on a Hearts forum.
    =====================================================================

    We are entering the final few months of the Romanov era and the club can and will be saved if that is what the fans want and will support.

    We are unlikely to be liquidated unless UBIG agreed to that happening but that isn’t rational within their interests and they could easily have let that happen at any time prior to this or without a share issue so I think we can discount that which means there is unlikely to be a need for any ‘Newco’ HMFC at least at this stage.

    Which basically leave us 2 options – we can either raise enough funds and see out the season relatively intact whilst we negotiate the end of UBIG’s ownership or else we can’t meet the tax demands and have to go into administration to seek shelter from HMRC winding up orders.

    That probably brings matters to a head quicker ie the debts would get wiped out albeit possibly at loss of ownership of the stadium unless a buyer can offer enough for the football club and stadium in it’s entirety whilst going into administration would also force immediate costs cuts to make the company financially viable again altho sadly at the cost of player & staff redundancies.

    Administration would also come with sporting penalties which could very well put us in serious jeopardy of being relegated unless we can push Dundee below us by winning enough points clear between now and the end of season.

    Best case: We stay out of administration and survive to the end of the season and put the club on a sustainable financial footing.

    Middle case: the playing cuts and points deductions of going into administration puts us in severe danger of relegation but at least we remain the same HMFC, we can deal with the debts and cut costs to make us financially viable and at worst play next season in Division One if not the SPL but at least we are spared the Sevco solution.

    Worst case: We are liquidated and have to start again from scratch, possibly without a stadium and have to join SFL 3rd Division or heaven forbid the East of Scotland League until we can sort ourselves out and get back in the Scottish Leagues.

    If I was a betting man I’d say our chances are 1) 45% 2) 45% 3) 10%


  38. a small part of me hopes that Romanov goes down the ADMIN route, puts forward a CVA which he can force through (holding more than 75% of the total debt) he agrees to 1p in the £ deal which stiffs a great number of creditors and hearts carry on with a basic 17 point deduction, SPL place in tact, squad in tact etc

    for no other reason than it would pi55 off the bears and have them screaming about an anti rangers agenda.

    Frankly, i’m sick of their nonsense and anything that upsets them is fine by me these days.

    Sooner green takes their money and buggers off with it the better as far as I now care.


  39. It would be a nice gesture of Campbell O donated some cash to the Hearts cause…..say the equivalent of a ‘good night out’……..he won’t miss it.


  40. Charlie Brown: as m8dreamer said earlier:

    “The last thing that any Hearts supporter should do at this present time, is to part with any money towards the Share Issue, as it can only be a matter of time before the club goes into Administration or Liquidation.

    Any money that they wish to invest should be put into a Hearts Supporters Trust fund, that can be utilised to purchase what assets of the club they can afford, to ensure that the club has a future, irrespective of which division or ground that they would be playing in.”

    Any money you give to the Club as it now stands, is effectively a poured into a black hole. The Hearts support screwed up before by clinging onto Tynecastle when you should have cleared your debts, and accepted a move to Murrayfield… don’t make the same mistake again: this time there will be no fantasy sugar daddy to “rescue” you.


  41. nowoldandgrumpy says:
    Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 22:59

    Does anyone have any information re the FTT ruling. Should it not be out by now?

    =============================

    My guess, and it is only that, is that if the tribunal has ruled and the parties have been informed then there may be privacy issues. As we know the hearing was heard in private, which is taken to have probably have been because of personal safety, public order, release of confidential information or a mixture of these.

    However there would be little point in doing that if the ruling itself negated everything and released the information which people were trying to keep private. I think there is a distinct possibility that one or more party may be trying to have the public release blocked, or if not then more heavily redacted.

    Like I said, just a possibility, no special knowledge or inside information.


  42. Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:06

    Finally, some sense on the matter. For the life of me I cannot see where the MSM get the div 3 option from apart from “well thats what happened to the the Rangers.” Either Hearts go into admin (can’t see them staving it off completely) Romanov takes the deeds in return for writing off his debt and HMFC as was continues with a points deduction to fight relegation and pay rent OR liquidation occurs in which case Romanov takes the deeds with the full intention to develop it in which case where they’re going to be playing is surely more important than which league they would be in (albeit Doncaster/Regan have already settled that by recent precedent).

    On that basis I would agree with your odds – 90% that hearts stay where they are, 10% that they’re stranded and homeless. Can’t see where emergency reconstruction fits into any of this tbh.


  43. spurtle says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:28

    Spurtle with all due respects we have been aware of these issues hanging over us for a long time and what our options are, we also know the relative strength of all the parties involved ie Romanov/UBIG, HMRC and the fans and how much we can raise and can’t raise etc.

    I think we all know and debate what we should do and every individual will make their own decision and contribution. Most want to seem to try to save the club and then if we later have to try to do that all over again then that is what we will do as well.

    What would you do if it was your club? We also know their will be no sugar daddy to rescue us this time so we are on our own but we still generate bigger attendances and more money than every club in Scotland outside Celtic and The Rangers so whatever happens the people of Edinburgh still want Hearts to exist so we will even though it’s going to be bloody hard work and painful getting there. 🙂


  44. No wonder CG is supporting the buy rangers scheme 😉
    His share issue £1-£1:50 a share
    Buy rangers scheme £125 A share
    😉 Correct me if im wrong But did chuckles not promise to put a fans representative on the board when he took over ???
    And now the rangers trust want to pay for this PRIVILEGE ??


  45. Oh and I don’t know if any of you guys follow the Hearts forum but it’s been quite fun debating with a blue-nose interloper called A.McCoist365 who has been making lots of posts actively endorsing the newco solution and why it shouldn’t be feared and is a seamless way to purge the club of debts and baddies and how and why they really are THE SAME CLUB honestly because Campbell & Longmuir & Ballantyne have said so. 🙂


  46. Hasn’t Sandy Jardine just become one of the biggest roasters in Scottish fitba. Have completely lost any respect i had for man (mostly down to him as a player). What a bitter & hateful individual he has become. I feel sorry for him.


  47. I was talking to a Rangers supporter yesterday evening about the whole “Newco/Oldco” thing, he put forward some interesting arguments devoid of partisan emotion (this part being important to have any reasonable debate on the subject). Of course he knows me and understands my background so no chance of either of us playing the bigot card so we generally have good discussions about this and other matters relating to Scottish football.

    After the discussion I can now say for the first time since this affair came to my attention, I finally get it, I cannot say the same for him. He is a reasonable guy who is not weighed down by the ignorant baggage associated with many others. Like me, he has no interest in Ireland, Religion or Politics. He does however (like me) value history.

    So why is history that important in a footballing sense? Simple, football takes over your whole life, at home, in the workplace, socializing with friends or strangers. So when things are not going well on the pitch we always take solace in the glories of the past, 1967 being a very good example. It’s a fundamental bragging right of the average football fan. If I had a pound for every time I used the European Cup win, 9 in a row, 10 men won the league, Whitewash etc… to shut up a friend or colleague then I might not need to ask my wife for lunch money as often as I seem to do now.

    Where am I going with this? I wish I knew myself!

    Well…He actually believes that the history was bought, that it followed the team (I used team instead of club) to the new club (I use that instead of company). He believes in his mind that he is following the same team and in my opinion he is 100% correct. It is called Rangers, it plays at Ibrox, it has the same strip and most of the previous players and in effect follows the same ethos from before. If he believes that then fine.

    No, sorry, I cannot leave it at that so…..

    ME: You cannot buy history, it is earned not given.
    HIM: The history is the brand and what that brand earned, he bought the brand and with that comes the history.
    ME: So you are saying that the history was indeed bought and the new team owns that?
    HIM: Yes of course, they bought the trade mark, the brand and along with that, the history. The clubs live on, the team is still there.
    ME: Ok, let’s say he bought only Ibrox, Murray Park, the team etc… Everything but the history, let’s say a second buyer bought that and started a brand new team playing at a rented Hamden Park or other venue. And let’s say that buyer was representing prominent Rangers men (fans) with Walter Smith as coach. Which team would you say has the right to boast about the past and assume the history of Rangers?
    HIM: Walter’s team, based on the argument I just put forward.
    ME: Even though another team plays at Ibrox in blue and calls themselves Rangers with most of the players from the old club?
    HIM: Yes, the team I follow is the one that has won over 50 major titles and has the Rangers crest on the shirt.
    ME: Ok, I can accept that. So let’s say the buyer of the brand and history is not a Rangers man and does not have Walter Smith as he joined up with Green’s team over at Ibrox. Oh, and he wants to call the new team Glasgow United (The name Rangers is already taken), who has the right to boast of 50+ major titles?

    Cue a pin dropping moment… a cold wind passes through the room and the man in the corner stops playing the piano…a small dog with his tail between his
    hind legs, crawls slowly towards the exit…


  48. nowoldandgrumpy says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:07

    Jabba wants an emergency reconstruction.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/if-hearts-go-down-watch-other-clubs-1424368#.UJxEwXjjHpM.twitter

    “They are swaying on the edge of oblivion but there are at least two other clubs only one step, one unexpected bill, behind them.

    Despite the bravado and bombast of some fans and commentators who stupidly, and crassly, responded to the troubles of Rangers with glee rather than dismay and alarm, Scottish football is not booming. The exact opposite is the truth”
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Rather than dismay and alarm?”

    We the internet Bampots have been telling you about David Murray and Rangers (for the last 8 years at least) Hugh Adam told you in 2002 what faced Rangers…what did you and your paper do? You made every effort to discredit and dismantle any attempt by any individual or group to expose the financial armageddon Murray and Rangers faced…

    Let us make this abundantly clear Mr. Traynor…YOU are partly responsible for the shambolic mess Rangers (now liquidated) found themselves in…It was YOU and your paper who shamelessly followed the party line as instructed by David Murray regarding what you could and could not tell their fans…It was YOU and your paper who chose to ignore the TAX bomb sitting in Ibrox…It was YOU and your paper who encouraged and allowed Craig Whyte the freedom of Ibrox to steal more tax…and it is YOU and your paper who continue to print the PR needs of DM..and Charlie today…and it is YOU and your paper who appear to be getting your self into a frothy lather at the prospect of other Scottish clubs having financial problems…which has thrown up an old Ibrox PR opportunity…and you are fronting as you always do..

    It was YOU who aggressively tried to discredit Chic Young when he confirmed the nod of the head by Mr. Johnston…why did you see fit to do that Mr. Traynor..when 6 other highly respected journalists concured with Mr. Young..
    It’s just a pity Mr. Traynor that you didn’t have the guts or enthusiasm to expose Rangers and David Murray 3-4 years ago…then again how could you…you were under instruction from David…

    If clubs are unable to pay their bills as they fall due then they may need to go to the wall in the same way Rangers Football club were killed off.

    It doesn’t mean Sottish football will die…it simply means those who have been fiscally iresponsible will have to leave the game or run their clubs correctly..

    You are a useless article of a human being..so gie us awe peace ya PHUD!


  49. No matter the result of Hearts current predicament, the MSM nomarks will use it as a shoehorn for their wet dream of The Loving Cup’s return to it’s reightful place at the sumit of Scottish Soccerball.

    No doubt some pretty powerful folks will be working feverishly behind the scenes to ensure that it happens: Conflicted Ogilvie, Donkey, Raygun, Chuckles, Jabba, Sandy Cartoon, MPs, MSPs etc etc.

    But it will be left to the most powerful person in Scottish football to determine how it’ll all play out.
    If you’re not aware who this person is,,,,,, go get your season ticket and hold it up to a mirror, that ugly mug you see staring back at you, there’s nobody more powerful, remember what you did in the summer!!


  50. Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 11:45

    “What would you do if it was your club?”

    My club is Dundee – we have been through this twice already! There IS life beyond administration, as other clubs can also attest. We no longer own Dens Park, but we still play there (at least, we play when Hearts are visiting!). And these days nobody will lend us enough money to get into further trouble! I imagine – and hope for – a similar outcome for Hearts.

    If I were a Hearts supporter, I would want to see a Supporters trust in place, as you suggest, and donate to that: once the club is in administration (I don’t see Romanov allowing it to go straight to liquidation…), then you can use your funds for re-establishing your club on a solid footing, with supporter ownership.

    Are Hearts supporters wealthy enough to save your club twice over?

    Lets say you raise enough now to stave off HMRC and keep raising money to keep going to the end of the season… where are you then? Still deeply insolvent and in financial crisis. Unless UBIG accept a CVA, I don’t see any way out of this for Hearts.


  51. spurtle says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:06

    Spurtle don’t take this the wrong way but avoiding administration now as opposed to 5 or 6 months time and the FTT (Hearts Tax Case) was lost might just about see us able to amass enough points to stave off being relegated although I suspect some form of league reconstruction and expanded top flight will probably save all SPL clubs this season.

    What we have to ensure is we don’t get wound up next week and that is why people are buying tickets for the next 3 home games and those who are buying shares are doing that as well.

    We know we’ve got a huge fight on our hands to survive the season intact and get through the tax case which could be as much as £4M depending on what interest and penalties are added should the tax case be lost, I think that would certainly mean administration.

    We all know we are not going to see our money again but the club will live on.

    We will probably still have to buy back the club and/or the stadium in future as well so we face an arduous road ahead, but we’re doing our best and we’re actively trying to get this tax bill paid unlike some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention. 🙂

    Best of luck for the season ahead, I quite like away games at Dundee & Dens Park (apart from the obvious one ;))


  52. On re-structuring.

    Why would New Rangers be in the top division if it happened.

    Surely if the leagues were restructured then clubs would be placed in order of where they were in the last season. New Rangers are currently placed 33rd of 42 teams. Even if they win the third division of the SFL that is the highest they can be placed overall.

    In a three league system, 14 teams each, that would place them in the lowest of the three.

    How could anyone justify placing teams in leagues in any way other than on merit from the previous system.

    I don’t really see how restructuring helps them. Unless it is the SPL which re-structures, expands itself into 2 leagues, and gets the additional teams by invitation. The current SPL clubs would have to vote on doing that surely. However Mr Green has already said, more than once, that they will not join the SPL.


  53. can anyone explain to me why it is reasonable that HMRC will pursue HMFC for £450k unpaid PAYE and NI with a liquidation order, yet did NOTHING to RFC who ran up £15M in unpaid PAYE/NI?

    HMRC did not issue them a winding up order and it was indeed RFC themselves who put them into admin.

    As a taxpayer, I want to know why RFC were not issued with a winding up order when they hit £450k in arrears.

    (i am not for a moment suggesting they shouldn’t be going after Hearts – but why the double standard?)


  54. Here is McCoist’s latest thought from Jambos Kickback justed posted minutes ago.
    ==============================================

    What I’m reading on here is a really sad indictment of the anti-Rangers brain-washing that’s accompanied the whole saga at Rangers.

    Let’s divorce it from Scottish football, and look elsewhere… England.

    Leeds Oldco was liquidated in 2007. Can you imagine Leeds fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.” Not a chance.
    Charlton Oldco was liquidated back in the 80s. Can you imagine their fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.”
    Middlesbrough as well. Luton. None of them have this warped outlook that’s merely a product of anti-Rangers feeling.

    Seeing comments where fans say they would NOT support a team:
    – called Heart of Midlothian FC
    – wearing Hearts jerseys
    – adorned by the Hearts badge
    – playing at Tynecastle
    – followed by Hearts fans..

    Why? Because it’s a newly registered company.

    Unbelievable.


  55. In considering the Hearts position you have to think of the one person being two again.

    In this case Mr Romanov, he is the major shareholder (owner) and major lender (creditor).

    So if he does decide to go down the administration / CVA route then as a creditor he can push the CVA through and purge the club of debt. As someone has pointed out yes he will lose most of his own money (but that was really lost anyway). His problem might be that his bank actually needs that debt as an asset (albeit one it never expects to actually get.

    Once that is done he is still the main shareholder, though no longer a creditor. he still owns the club, the stadium, players registrations etc.

    The problem is, can he find his own Duff and Phelps to run the administration as he (the shareholder) wants and not do anything daft like sell the stadium, or the full squad or whatever. Short answer, yes. If the creditors (Mr Romanov) are happy for it to be dealt with a certain way, and the shareholder (Mr Romanov) agree then the administrator will probably go that way.

    Bottom line, mr Romanov will decide if he wants Hearts to survive long term. Unless of course the fans come up with the money and he doesn’t even have to go down that route. this would men he could keep his club (shareholder) and his debt (creditor).


  56. How quaint something concerning pretendgers being delayed!!! You couldn’t make it up 🙂 seriously hope the injured guy gets well soon ………. Does he not have an understudy?


  57. Did anyone hear Cosgrove mention to Jabba within the last couple of weeks on air that Ibrox could become a casino? Hearts could end up playing at Murrayfield, Tynecastle may well have been earmarked for re-development, casino, sports centre, as far back as 2003/2004. As could Ibrox. Corsica couldn’t put his finger on the money cleansing side of things, He thought maybe it was Dave King as he was the only one involved at RFC who had the level of wealth, he was looking in the wrong place, it is all to do with Las Vegas Sands, Las Vegas Sands intened on building a Super Casino in Europe, Madrid being the now chosen place, they need multiple laundries spread out across Europe. Lithuania, Scotland and England the most likely. Even good old Banstead in Surrey looks to be in their sights for a new Casino-Leisure Centre. I know how outlandish this all sounds. However I would like to hear RTC and Barcabhoy’s opinion on this, I doubt they will deny this is all correct. The missing link was Las Vegas Sands, I stumbled across it and all roads lead there. Believe it or not guys.


  58. For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?


  59. Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:21

    can anyone explain to me why it is reasonable that HMRC will pursue HMFC for £450k unpaid PAYE and NI with a liquidation order, yet did NOTHING to RFC who ran up £15M in unpaid PAYE/NI?

    =======================

    Do you know how historic the Hearts £450k debt is.

    Have you factored in the previous 3 winding up orders in less than a year.

    Do you know what stage the negotiations between HMRC and Rangers were at when Mr Whyte publicly announced that he would be placing the club into administration.

    You really need to know these things, and more, before comparing the two.


  60. HMRC push Hearts because ultimately they get paid in the end, they can only act within their rules so there is nothing untoward in their actions indeed they have and are doing the same to other clubs. But Hearts, Falkirk etc pay their taxes albeit late unlike some other club/holding-co who are now best described as LATE.


  61. Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:36

    For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?

    =================================

    Misery loves company.

    They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.


  62. Charlie Brown says:
    Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:17

    “we’re actively trying to get this tax bill paid unlike some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention”

    I can’t imagine which club you are referring to.. 😉

    Hearts will have a lot more good wishes helping them out of their predicament than some other clubs/holding-co’s we could mention….

    Best of luck to all of the maroon persuasion in the trying times ahead.

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