A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
exiledcelt says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 13:41
Anyone wanting to see what is being labeled on KDS as “It’s a Knockout Rememberance Day Special” – here is the full splendour of the dignified celebration……..
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Just wondering if these brave men and women got added to the attendance record without passing through the ‘turnstile management system’?
exiledcelt says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 13:41
That is just an embarrassment. It looks like the sort of shambolic pitch invasion you used to get after the cup final. What that has to do with remembrance of the fallen I will never be able to fathom
With the fttt reported to now be in the hands of the people who need it .Maybe it has been scrutinised and there is nothing in it for walter to worry about.Just a thought
Mystery billionaire with off the radar wealth set to step in and save Hearts
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7cmVpwCEAE2z-i.jpg:large
With regard to anyone gloating at the issues facing Rangers old and new I believe it has been said many times before but is worth repeating again.
To begin with I feel there was a degree of sympathy for the Rangers fans being that they were the ones being ‘duped’ by Minty Moonbeams and then Craig Whyte.
Just like Hearts supporters now, a lot of it was outwith their control and they were at the mercy of the Spivs.
In the early days many people would have been happy with hefty fines and punishments and in return for a little humble apology a place in the SPL would have been on the cards.
However the victim mentality kicked in and all sorts of threats and boycotts were issued.
Cost cutting by the administrators seemed to be last thing on the agenda and it became clear footballing authrorities were keen to started bending all sorts of rules to help out one particualr club.
The MSM continued to avoid asking the difficult questions making the rest of Scottish Football and its fans highly suspicious of what was going on.
After than peoples attitudes hardened and ‘starting from the bottom’ became the cry.
Given the behaviour of McCoist and Green over the last few months along with internet bampots with blue tinted specs and the continued silence of ‘decent fans’ many now can’t wait for the day that they they go down the pan for a second time.
It may not be right but the evolution of the gloating and hopes for catastrophic failure it is understandable.
I can’t help but wonder how many sets of body armour or warrior armoured fighting vehicles £134million could provide. That would be a more fitting tribute to the fallen. Then again The Rangers don’t do irony.
rab says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 13:30
7 0 i Rate This
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I agree.
RTC and TSFM were created to fill the void left by the MSM i.e. to inform Scottish football fans in relation all the unpalatable stuff the MSM wanted placed safely under the carpet. Due to this simple fact, it was/is inevitable that the greatest thrust of discussion will be concerned with the nefarious antics of previous and current owners, managers and officials of Rangers/Sevco and their media toadies. Since – despite all that has come to pass – the MSM have not changed tack on this position; inevitably contributors to TSFM will focus largely on the items that the MSM twist and distort, or simply fail to report – i.e. the “anti”Sevco stuff.
This apparent “anti”Sevco slant is the ying to the MSM’s unstinting propagation of pro-Sevco propaganda yang. It’s the MSM that has created the vacuum that TSFM performs the crucial role of filling – TSFM is not the collection of rabid anti-Rangers bogits that the ostrich loyal whinge and wail about whilst praising the Emperor’s clothes ad infinitum.
If anyone’s to blame it’s the succulent lamb brigade
Countdown’s breaktime teaser today was ‘Old loyal’. With the return of the cardigan, it felt appropriate for one of our TV channels to be paying tribute!! The answer, though, was Doolally!
Again, quite appropriate I thought, especially with it’s reference to Sally. I might adopt Dool-ally for future references!
I’m really hoping the reappearance prompts some RTC activity. I’m not on Twitter – can someone keep an eye and post?
the oldcourse – well said.
same with the Help for Heroes charity and erskine hospital.
why are they needed at all?
because their heroes have been used and dumped.
the government can spend cash willy nilly on bombs, planes, missiles, bullets and guns, in the words of a famous politician, when asked by tommy sheridan, how much it was costing to invade iraq, the reply was – “whatever it takes”
the gullible signed up, did what they were told to do, then get dumped and are left to get looked after by “charities”.
speaking of charities, i seem to recall, there was a charity football match earlier this year at ibrox, where the beneficiaries of that charity match, were in fact a now extinct football club !!
(maybe i am mistaken and the i missunderstood where the the charity money went, but if i raised money for charity and kept it…i’d be put in jail and the story would be all over the papers as some kind of fraudulent activity?)
Freudian Slip?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/20300130
At 4:17 – who is Richard?
Does Souness know a Richard behind the scenes who is pulling the strings (Richard Hughes of Zeus?)
Or, given his age, is getting his Greens mixed up and he is thinking of Richard Greene who played Robin Hood when he was a boy!!
exiledcelt says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 13:41
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OMG?
That has all the hallmarks of a parade thats ended up in the wrong place.
I’m also sure that the cost of providing those troops was paid for by Charlie and not the TAX payer?
wottpi says:
Does Souness know a Richard behind the scenes who is pulling the strings (Richard Hughes of Zeus?)
Or, given his age, is getting his Greens mixed up and he is thinking of Richard Greene who played Robin Hood when he was a boy!!
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I don’t think so, he robbed the rich to help the poor – not to help the rich get richer!
12 Nov 2012, 05:17 PM
I assume James Traynor has been scathing in his criticism of Sevco this morning. What with them withholding valuable money to a team on the brink of collapse. No? …. But that doesn’t make any sense.
He had plenty to say when he believed (falsely I might add) that Celtic were withholding money from Rangers 1872 after the Old Firm game.
From Traynor’s piece in The Record today
You could say Green was being opportunistic but he’s a businessman and insists he did want to help Hearts and his own club. But we shouldn’t be taxing ourselves trying to work out why he made the offer.
The real issue is why Hearts rejected it.
liveinhop says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 16:43
liveinhope it was rejected because £500K now for £800K due within in 8 months would be madness and also create a further £300K hole in our budget. Heck even the corporate loan sharks would offer you approx £650K now for £800K within a year a return of at least 23%, much more than that when you factor in the timing and amount of installment payments Green is obliged to make. It was a VERY BAD DEAL that is why it was rejected.
What I took from that video was the amount of silver on display in TRFCs trophy room. According to the administrators all this precious metal is only worth Stg£1.00. How can this stand?
Admins Notice up
LH – Reserves consideration: …[under] paragraph 98(2) of Schedule 51 to the Insolvency Act 1986 – CoI?
Agrajag says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 23:07
3 0 Rate This
midcalderan says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 22:56
How very dare you.
Sir Walter will never be subjected to anything.
In fact if he had an EBT then all that would be is proof they were perfectly legal.
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But you and I and everyone else here know differently Agrajag. What do you make of this.
Walter. “The role I will fulfil is to bring my experience of Rangers and football in general to the board table and that is what I will do.”
Surely not more long term tax avoidance/evasion schemes or is there another “experience” to be revealed?
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/2635-walter-returns-to-rangers
Thanks exiledcelt for video, I took my nine year old Grandson to a local Remembrance Service to show him that war is not a computer game, and to honour the men & women who fought against fascism, dignified it was, the complete antithesis of this rabble.
Here’s a wee thought. As we all now suspect and fear, a football team of some description wearing blue will be plying their trade at Ibrox for the foreseeable future. We all know that this is because of the depth of utter corruption within ALL bodies concerned with running and reporting on the game here in Scotland. This has been noted by all and sundry and does not merit another mention here. My current issue is that there seems to be an attitude around now that because everyone seems to know the extent of the cheating and all the culprits involved in this saga there is no longer a need to hide the fact that as far as some people are concerned there is only 1 team in Scotland. No matter the depth of depravity they have stooped to.
So what’s to stop the establishment (Corrupt Basas) ensuring favourable results every week from here to eternity for Tribute FC. and what would be the point of any other team bothering to turn up.
Lets face it. Scotland does not need a strong Ranjurs. No.What is a now wanted is an all conquering Ranjurs team that wins everything in sight by any means possible. If that means out and out cheating then so be it. Be under no illusion that when the Tribute act gets back to the top of Scottish Football the corruption will all go away. Heaven and earth will be moved to ensure that trophies are lined up for them and no one will even care because the establishment corruption will be totally transparent and the game will be lost to us forever. A strong successful TRFC probably means having no one to play against.
This is simply all a result of not applying the rules without fear or favour. How Sad.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/200175-celtic-and-rangers-colts-teams-in-proposal-for-scottish-league-change/
Plans to include Celtic and Rangers reserve teams in the Scottish league setup will be discussed by Scottish Football League clubs on Wednesday.
STV understands a proposal is on the table to switch to a three-tier system, with a 16-team top flight, a 10-team First Division and an 18-team Second Division, the latter of which would feature the reserve sides of the two Glasgow clubs.
The plans would see the Scottish Premier League and SFL merge into one body. Currently, the SPL exists independently in a 12-team league, while the SFL is divided into three leagues of 10 clubs.
Also up for discussion will be when the new structure would be introduced, either for next season or the 2014/15 campaign.
If approved, it is understood the latter is the more likely option, despite Scottish FA chief executive Stewart Regan previously saying any plans for league reconstruction should “ideally” be implemented by next campaign.
have been trying hard not to comment on the Hearts situation until it develops further – but we should not accept clubs wiping out tax owed as somehow okay. it is not okay.
It is not okay to pay players like Skacel £1,200,000 per year + bonuses then not pay your tax. Hearts should sell all their players on January 1st and run out with 11 players on the minimum wage @£10,000 per year. Then they might deserve our support.
on a related matter, a few contributors asked the other day who is ultimately Ogilvie’s boss. Well, if you ask me, we are. We as Scottish taxpayers give the SFA £10.4M every year. We, or rather the democratically elected Scottish Government, are a large funder of the SFA. Why are we accepting this situation where Ogilvie runs Rangers(il), Hearts and probably the SFA into the ground and shafts us the taxpayer??
why has there been no Scottish Parliament enquiry into the scandal of stolen taxes in Scottish football? Starbucks were dragged in front of a Westminster cttee today – why are the Scottish Parliament Cttees so scared of this issue?
we as taxpayers and voters are to blame if the SFA, Murray and Romanov get away with this – we are to blame this is still going on.
I presume the thinking behind this is that sevco will be back in SPL before they can field a reserve team. Will sevco be able to field a reserve team if they are in second tier. What if they do not get promotion do then sevco play sevco reserves????
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 17:38
0 1 Rate This
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/200175-celtic-and-rangers-colts-teams-in-proposal-for-scottish-league-change/
Plans to include Celtic and Rangers reserve teams in the Scottish league setup will be discussed by Scottish Football League clubs on Wednesday.
STV understands a proposal is on the table to switch to a three-tier system, with a 16-team top flight, a 10-team First Division and an 18-team Second Division, the latter of which would feature the reserve sides of the two Glasgow clubs.
The plans would see the Scottish Premier League and SFL merge into one body. Currently, the SPL exists independently in a 12-team league, while the SFL is divided into three leagues of 10 clubs.
Also up for discussion will be when the new structure would be introduced, either for next season or the 2014/15 campaign.
If approved, it is understood the latter is the more likely option, despite Scottish FA chief executive Stewart Regan previously saying any plans for league reconstruction should “ideally” be implemented by next campaign.
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I presume the thinking behind this is that sevco will be back in SPL before they can field a reserve team. Will sevco be able to field a reserve team if they are in second tier. What if they do not get promotion do then sevco play sevco reserves????
Rangers Tax-Case @rangerstaxcase
Put a legend on the board of a football club as a watchdog? John Greig did a great job of raising the alarm at Rangers. #sarcasm
Not sure of the reliability, but lifted from KDS
I was told some rather interesting info about Sevco’s share issue. Came from a pretty good source.
Once the pledge period had closed they cross checked the email addresses against their current database of season ticket holders, previous shareholders and other marketing databases. This gave them a grand figure of 6,000. Now I believe, and some one can correct me if I’m wrong but the conversion rate from pledge to actually handing over cash is calculated at around 40%.
So:
6,000 x £500 = £3,000,000
@40% conversion that is the massive total of £1,200,000.
Apparently, and again I await someone more clued up on this than me but the share issue will cost around £1,000,000 to administer. You do the calculation.
Now this doesn’t take into account those who have pledged spending more than £500 or indeed genuine pledges from those not on a Sevco database or corporate investment but shows that the take up amongst fans is expected to be minimal.
Might explain the sudden need to get Walter on board to convince a few more of them to hand over their hard earned. Although even if all 6,000 came through that would only be £3mill.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 17:38
STV understands a proposal is on the table to switch to a three-tier system, with a 16-team top flight, a 10-team First Division and an 18-team Second Division, the latter of which would feature the reserve sides of the two Glasgow clubs.
Also up for discussion will be when the new structure would be introduced, either for next season or the 2014/15 campaign.
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So how does that one work for next season?
Lets agree that T’Rangers are going to get promotion this season but that just places them 11th or 12th from the bottom in terms of pecking order. Therefore they will still only be in the botton division of 18.
Even if you allow Celtic and T’Rangers reserves to come in at the bottom to make a total off 44 teams it only moves T’Rangers first team up to 13th or 14th from bottom.
Are their first team then going to be playing their reserves if this is implemented for next season??
Or is it me and I am just missing something obvious here??
liveinhope
Jabba had very little to say about Rangers being owe money to anyone, not just Hearts. But he actually lied about Celtic saying that he had documentary evidence that Celtic were owe Rangers money.
So instead of Sevco having one league place that they didn’t qualify for they will have two?
Good job we’ve got a sense of humour.
wottpi says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 18:09
0 0 Rate This
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 17:38
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I would suggest that it will be season 15/16 that this will come in. Unless the SFA can find a way to get them up the leagues faster.
So if the 1st team were playing their reserves on the last day of the season and needed 3 pts
and say 8+ goals to secure promotion …………………..
Would the reserve team be elligible for Cup competitions ?
If the 1st team were drawn against the reserves………………
I’m sure we can all see the conflict of interest created in this setup
what numbnut came up with this idea?
Can an Rfc* player play for the 1st team and the reserves in the same season ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20302632
Why is the only person directly quoted in this story Charles Green? Would it not have been better to have someone from the SFL quoted? Or maybe quotes and thoughts from a few club chairmen? But no, we get Charles Green’s opinion only and he’s not even in the country.
I don’t understand why either Glasgow team’s reserves should have a place in a revised league set up. If there are positions available then it seems logical to offer to the likes of Spartans, etc.
Oops, sorry I did say logical……. I’ll get my coat.
Also, I was under the impression the Rangers reserves were already playing in Division 3. Is that not the line they’ve been spinning since the summer, that most of their first team now is last years reserves
This proposal will generate 4 games for Sevco against a Celtic team in year 1. SKY TV anyone?
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 17:38
1-6
Well Spotted & Good TSFM Blog Post NOAG
@rangerstaxcase
Put a legend on the board of a football club as a watchdog? John Greig did a great job of raising the alarm at Rangers. #sarcasm
@rangerstaxcase
What training or experience in matters of subterfuge does Smith have that Greig lacked?
@rangerstaxcase
And both benefited from EBTs.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 18:15
Well of course that would be the sensible thing.
Therefore is the pile of cack coming
a) from the footballing authorities
or
b) just very poor reporting without any thought being given to what is put out by the MSM.
I sincerely hope there enough SFL chairmen of the calibre of Turnbull Hutton to see through this latest attempt at reconstruction and treat it with the contempt it deserves.
Here is one comment from the SFL,
David Stoker @davidstoker_lfc
Regarding colt teams and reconstruction in general, how many paying supporters have been consulted? Not many I’d suggest, as per usual.
If I was annoyed at the Herald front page caption referring to WS as “hero”, then I was incensed by 4 aspects of the back page article by Michael Grant.
– after printing Chuckles’ claim to be debt-free, he discusses the derisory offer to pay some of their debt to Hearts early. Will the SFA comment on this one?
– the blast at “years of grotesque mismanagement” at Hearts may well be true but I do not remember any such comment about xRangers. Did I miss it?
– he suggests Hearts’ shortfall between income + expenditure is £2m. Has this revered organ ever estimated what the shortfall at Sevco will be this season or are they too scared to ask or to investigate?
– I guess the comment about “potentially ruinous disregard for paying taxes” could be construed as a reference to xRangers but as it’s the MSM at the very worst today that is unlikely.
I’m going to calm down – don’t panic as the late Clive Dunn would say.
What these proposals reveal is that no-one in Scottish football has learned anything. It is run by and for short sighted imbeciles with no interest in or ideas about the future of the game and its component clubs. It proposes the same failed parasitism of all other clubs on Celtic and a deid club reborn.
It has no proposals to generate local development of neighbourhood clubs.
It has no pyramid to promote ambitious clubs to their natural level.
It is a crock of excrement frankly. It absolutely shows the utter lack of capacity of those running the sfl. Every bit as corrupt and lazy and stupid as those running the spl and sfa. The game is domed while it remains in the hands of self-serving and, let’s be honest, inctedibly thick individuals.
The deep pocket and short arm mentality of Tribute Act supporters is to be tested to the extreme. Walter Smith is being sent in (by who?) to con the supporters and allow Green to leave with a few quid. The sight of Smith in his brown brogues MIGHT be enough to encourage those supporters to pay out. Smith knows full well Green is a con merchant and once again is happy to be complicit in stealing from supporters.
League re-construction is overdue by a long shot. But it cant just be done for T’rangers. A mean one team in the top league and one in the bottom. Non promotion etc how would it work? Newco also die off how does it work then? Yet again a half hearted attempt at reform.
Nowoldandgrumpy @Nowoldandgrumpy
@davidstoker_lfc Supporters are told nothing, a question for you please, Have you seen the so called 5 way agreement.
David Stoker @davidstoker_lfc
@Nowoldandgrumpy no
=======
I find that incredible and makes it even more likely that it contains something corrupt.
so we’re to have 3 Divisions of 16,10 and 18.
How does this work?,
Div 3 can play each other twice,total 34 games.
Div 2 play each other 4 times,total 36 games
Div 1 play each other twice,total only 30 games.Then what?.
Split into 2 eights and play each other twice,total now 44.Far too many when allowing for euro & international fixtures.
Play each other once more,total now 37 but would mean 4 home & 3 away or vice versa.Would also mean one club would need to finish the season early.
Three leagues with no uniformity,no relegation from div 3,therefore no hope for the likes of Spartans,Cove rangers etc.
This is progress?.
My first instinct is that these plans for reconstruction are out because there is a need for some cover.
A bit like the Olympics opening ceremony.
My second thought is that the proposal for rangers and Celtic colts to play in sfl 3 is also to get discussion on something else than what is about to come out.
For what it is worth I object to the plan for rangers and Celtic to play for these reasons
1 all members of sfl should be equal and should have one team in the senior leagues
Rangers and Celtic can if they like do what Spartans do and have a junior side side or even a team in the feeder senior leagues that is barred from getting into the sfl.
And by the way sfl and scottish government who put money into their pot – a pyramid system is over 100 years overdue
2 if rangers and Celtic take these spots they will do it at the expense of real community sides who deserve the chance to follow their aspirations and I mean teams like caley, Ross county, Elgin, Peterhead, Annan who took the chance and Linlithgow, cove, Spartans and gala who should be given the chance.
I’m not too worried however – People like Turnbull who are not for being bullied will fight the good fight – of that I have no doubt
So I’ll go back to my first instinct now.
What is this new sleight of hand being used to cover up?
And why now?
finloch says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 19:28
————
You can count David Stoker alongside Turnbull.
Well put finloch, this has to be a smokescreen for something else. Whatever, the lessons of the past 12 months have clearly not been learned by some in the corridors of power in Scottish football. Here are, I believe, some obvious lessons:
• Scottish football is bigger than either of the two Glasgow clubs
• It is possible for any poorly or fraudulently managed club to go bust.
• The impact of any club going under will be damaging, at least to some extent, on the surviving clubs
• After administration, any club arising from the remains will consider itself to have no obligation to make reparation for the damage done by its predecessor.
In the event of the proposed changes coming into effect, the notion that Scottish football is bigger than the two Glasgow clubs will be stood on its head and development of the game will inevitably be predicated on what is good, primarily, for the ‘Glasgow Firm’ (it can never be the Old Firm again). The proposal to enshrine a second Rangers team in the 3rd Division, as of right, is evidence that merit is unimportant. It also evidences, I suggest, an intent to place TRFClones in the top flight, putting clear water between them and their spawn, for the reasons timtim outlines @ Nov 12, 2012 at 18:22.
The SFA’s proposals ignore the fact that just as RFC went belly up their clone can go belly up as well, probably sooner rather than later. At any rate, any objective evaluation of the risks involved for a new company taking over from the old in today’s economic climate must raise serious questions about the ability of TRFClones surviving for long. What then is point in enshrining that entity in not one but two pivotal positions in a new league structure? Clearly, those football authorities which were found wanting when it came to managing the RFC implosion are going to be totally out of their depth when, not if, it happens again. When it does, the damage to other clubs and the game in general is likely to be very severe and the culprits can take refuge behind the protection of administration. Armageddon is not such an unlikely scenario, I fear. Beam me up, Scotty.
Looking at the Celtic results this season, it would appear that Celtic have indeed left Scottish football.
Could T’rangers afford a colt side as last time of checking they pulled out the reserve league?
yikirta says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 18:45
Walter had an EBT – who would have thought?
Will we see any nuclear fall out soon?
Part of the plan is to have a split league but not quite the same as is current in SPL.
Celtic and Whitstheirname FC will split from the ‘bottom’ 12 or 14 at the end of August and play each other until May.
SKY will televise the top part.
You have to be enumerate to propose a 16 team league. You have to wonder at the agenda of having 2 sevcos in the league. You have to reckon the ftt is going live tomorrow.
League reconstruction – RM CG p8sh. Nothing will happen until the 11-1 thing is sorted.
Ill pay Rapid Vienna GC lies he wont he doesnt have it.
Ill pay Hearts ditto brinksman chancer.
Cardigan living on borrowed time. RTC taking aim. I await the first press conference. Step forward MD AT et al.
Lawyers and their client accounts.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/357813
The Cardigan may have been tipped off that his name is redacted from the FTT report otherwise he would not have dared showing his face in public. Even so he will be taking a risk that his name cannot be matched up with the FTT report using information leaked from other sources
This league reconstruction is a total joke. Why oh why are the two ugly sisters the only chosen ones to have colt sides in Div3? Typical narrow minded Glasgow oriented tripe. Does nothing or no other team exist outside Glasgow, Celtic and Rangers then? Pathetic, insular, blinkered dinosaurs, the Scottish game is doomed if that is all they can come up with. Cannot believe they can’t stop putting the Glasgow firm first, dear oh dear when will they wake up.
goosygoosy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 20:19
0 0 Rate This
The Cardigan may have been tipped off that his name is redacted from the FTT report …
=====
If they publish but use only his second name, the MSM will be wondering who is this Smith person.
So yesterday we have the Walter EBT Smith joining the board, today we have a ridiculous ‘reconstruction’ proposal which effectively kills the SPL.
Share issue anyone?
goosygoosy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 20:19
The Cardigan may have been tipped off that his name is redacted from the FTT report otherwise he would not have dared showing his face in public. Even so he will be taking a risk that his name cannot be matched up with the FTT report using information leaked from other sources
=========
That’s believable GG.
And, what if one of Sir Walter of Cardigan’s motivations to return is to influence MSM output ?
If there is bad news coming his way wrt EBTs+, then as a retiree he could be a ‘relatively’ easy target for the MSM.
If he has his brown brogues back under the desk – even as a non-exec – then ‘Walter’ can exert direct influence on his MSM poodles – and ensure that any negative, personal stories can be traded for some iBrox ‘exclusives’ – or iBrox access could be removed ?
Still puzzled by his return though… 🙄
Why not introduce a new Celtic and Rangers team into the league every season? In just a few short years the league would have no need for other teams spoiling things.
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/35582323707/the-first-shot-across-the-bows
On reconstruction. In short, financially unsustainable and democratically unchooseable.
So, for the SFL, that has to count as one of their better ideas.
StevieBC says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 20:31
Still puzzled by his return though…
—————————————————————————————————————–
Here’s a daft suggestion for you.
What if the cardigan has recently paid back his “loan” to the trust, would he be so skint he needs the job to top up his pension fund? How much was the “loan?” Anyone know?
I suspect RTC has to hold fire until the FTT is released but when it does.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 20:44
I suspect RTC has to hold fire until the FTT is released but when it does.
===============================================================
I’m sure RTC has stated in the past that there’s a lot of info being withheld by he/she until the FTT is made public.
I just knew that league reconstruction would rear its head at some point and, when it did, it would amount to an almighty mess that ignored the wishes of fans and most of the clubs. I have absolutely no faith in the powers-that-be to come up with a genuinely constructive proposal that does not favour vested interests. Do these people think we are daft? I just pray that fans around the country and some of the more sensible club chairmen can once again put this nonsense to bed, because I would sooner see the whole edifice of the game come crashing to the ground than accept the joke of a system that would emerge if these bad actors are allowed to have their way.
cosmichaggis@20:20 Celtic have nothing whatsoever to do with this drivel spouted by Green and Jabba. In fact they are just happy to associate their measly Club with Celtic in the eyes of supporters like yourself. Don’t be drawn in by their “”Old Fi*m nonsense, there is no Old Firm, and for that I as a Celtic fan am absolutely delighted.
So having been thoroughly discredited with their last Help for Sevco ploy, the Stooges, completely undettered decide to have another go at circumventing the rules yet again
This time though, I think Charlie has had more than a little input into this idea
I really do believe that he sees himself as the real power in Scottish football,and he is already on record as saying that the SFL will become the league that every team will want to be a member of
There is no doubt in my mind, that Charlie has joined forces with Stooges 1 & 2, leaving Donkey out in the cold for the moment
Is he really ready to take on the SPL,in his own version of the Final Conflict ?
Time will tell
On another note, it is definitely time that the “5 way agreement”, or 5 way collusion as it should be called, is made public. I believe it is time to put pressure on Clubs to speak up on our behalf and demand it be available for all of the people it effects, which is the supporters.
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 21:02
4 0 i
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cosmichaggis@20:20 Celtic have nothing whatsoever to do with this drivel spouted by Green and Jabba. In fact they are just happy to associate their measly Club with Celtic in the eyes of supporters like yourself. Don’t be drawn in by their “”Old Fi*m nonsense, there is no Old Firm, and for that I as a Celtic fan am absolutely delighted.
======================================================================
OF I am as delighted as you are that there is no Old Firm anymore, I did state Glasgow Firm in the post. I was commenting on the insistence of these dinosaiurs that the duopoly of the SPL in the past still exists for them and they still can’t see past it
iceman63 says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 19:01
What these proposals reveal is that no-one in Scottish football has learned anything. It is run by and for short sighted imbeciles with no interest in or ideas about the future of the game and its component clubs. It proposes the same failed parasitism of all other clubs on Celtic and a deid club reborn.
——————————————————————————
Without arguing against the point about them being short sighted imbeciles (which seems correct) do you think that they might have deliberately thrown in a really awful suggestion just now in the hopes that when it’s thrown out they can bring in another a bit less obviously bad and claim that as the ‘compromise position’? Or is that too smart for them?
Pure speculation on my part
Sunday, the cardigan re-appears, and on Monday League reform raises its head again
Could it be coincidence, or has Charlie brought no surname on board to strengthen Charlie’s claim that he and Sevco are the real power
Just a thought
Did anyone else spot this little nugget from Green on the BBC website (my caps for emphasis)?
“Hearts have got into financial difficulty and there were rumours in the papers that there were another couple of SPL clubs in financial difficulty, so it is a time for change…Whether the SPL could survive if two clubs go out of business would be really questionable…We are just focusing on winning the Third Division and getting promotion…We are a football club, we just win matches and, if you keep winning games, you will end up at the top…What the top will be called in three years, who knows?…If it happens beforehand because of restructuring, or BECAUSE CLUBS GO OUT OF BUSINESS, that’s unfortunate, but we had to get on with our lives and other clubs will have to do the same.”
So there we have it, Chuckles admits it once again…Rangers are dead, long love Sevco.
iveinhop says:
Monday, November 12, 2012 at 16:43
26 1 Rate This
12 Nov 2012, 05:17 PM
I assume James Traynor has been scathing in his criticism of Sevco this morning. What with them withholding valuable money to a team on the brink of collapse. No? …. But that doesn’t make any sense.
He had plenty to say when he believed (falsely I might add) that Celtic were withholding money from Rangers 1872 after the Old Firm game.
From Traynor’s piece in The Record today
You could say Green was being opportunistic but he’s a businessman and insists he did want to help Hearts and his own club. But we shouldn’t be taxing ourselves trying to work out why he made the offer.
The real issue is why Hearts rejected it.
+++++++++++++++++
“we shouldn’t be TAXING ourselves” … did Jabba really write that ? Really ? Unintentional comedy gold ! 🙂