Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?

ByTrisidium

Why the Beast of Armageddon Failed to Show?

A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove

At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.

To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.

The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.

Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.

2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.

On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.

St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.

By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.

It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.

Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.

Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.

In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.

So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.

Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.

Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.

European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.

Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.

Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.

It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.

Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.

By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.

Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.

Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.

So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’

The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.

Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.

Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.

We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.

It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.

Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.

About the author

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,744 Comments so far

slimshady61Posted on1:41 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Have been out of the loop for a while so apologies if this has already been covered but the real reason for the gadarene rush to raise money by Sevco is that when the financial fair play rules kick in next year, redeemable loan equity will no longer be permitted in loss-making football clubs, it must be converted to normal share equity.

Since Sevco is making losses, the “saviours” of “the club” may find themselves in the unpalatable position of having to convert their loans to shares next year and that was never part of the plan.

The plan was always (i) buy on the cheap, (ii) borrow to do it and lend the money in, (iii) get the bears and bearettes to chuck in their dosh and (iv) rip it out with a coupon on top.

It is difficult to come to any other conclusion when they don’t actually need serious cash either for anything to do with the playing side just now or for the stadium; additionally the timing of the offer is going to be such that they are asking people to part with serious money 8 days before Christmas; even in the halcyon days of the BT and “tell Sid” British Gas flotations, they studiously avoided the holiday period

Someone should “tell Charlie”

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ExiledCeltPosted on1:46 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Hi Slimshady61 – welcome back!

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paulsatimPosted on1:58 pm - Nov 14, 2012


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 11:43

Cant a FOI request be made regarding the 5 way “agreement”?

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john clarkePosted on1:58 pm - Nov 14, 2012


slimshady61 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 13:41
‘Have been out of the loop for a while…’
—-
And from me too, welcome back. Except I’ll now have to try and clue myself up on redeemable equity loan and what UEFA/FIFA have to say about it! As posters have frequently remarked, every day an education.

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whulliePosted on2:16 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Desperately trying to catch up so apologies if this has been mentioned previously.

There are proposals for reconstruction from SFL and counter proposals, apparently from SPL. All this dancing round hand-bags is, quite frankly, a nonsense to fast track one club at the expense of others by organisations not fit for purpose.

My offering may be so far left of field as to be considered ridiculous so TD’s are welcome.

IF (e.g.) Celtic spoke with Hibs, Hearts (?), Dundee Utd, Aberdeen and some of the other more powerful clubs within the Scottish set up, to agree a breakaway league. This Scottish Football Federation could ask others to join and swell the ranks.

Could they then approach FIFA/UEFA asking for the rights to play in their competitions as opposed to these rights going to SFA/SPL/SFL?
This could shift power from the compromised folk who run the Scottish game.
It would mean reconstruction for the benefit of all, as opposed to one club.
It would wrest the power from these odious people who are ruining our game and our reputation.
It would go a long way to appeasing ALL fans as opposed to one group.
It would deal correctly and fairly, within an established set of rules with clubs who “misbehave”.
UEFA might even delight in welcoming this newly formed, clean organisation into their ranks at the expense of the “stained” one that exists now.

I am just thinking out loud here but if enough clubs “suggest” that they have had it with Scottish football and need a clean break, is there a chance of a mass resignation and a formation of a new set up?

It would be interesting to gauge the reaction from SR, ND, DL, RT, and all the rest IF clubs present the “had enough” argument. Would these men shun these rebellious clubs to keep their jobs and appease one set of fans?

These people have a job to administer the game for the clubs.
The clubs exist because of the backing of the fans.

As a more knowledgeable man than me once said, “Football without the fans is nothing”.

Thoughts please on a more simple man’s logic.

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ianagainPosted on2:22 pm - Nov 14, 2012


JC 2012 edition

http://uk.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/01/80/54/10/1805410_DOWNLOAD.pdf

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forweonlyknowPosted on2:22 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 12:57

“We are in a time of correction, …..”

———————————————-

Absolutely. This time of correction is what is happening whether we like it or not. What we don’t need is for the media to be pedalling the notion that the model has to change purely to suit one set of fans (of whatever club you want to call them) because they have many ‘followers’.

We have to focus on how clubs use this particular re-balancing to allow them to find their ‘honest’ place in the game. Regardless of todays attendances.
Up sell to the punter/fan/customer. Live of that and any corporate money you can muster …. and then use (any) TV money as your reserve (of course this would have to be a 1-3 year plan).

I don’t like seeing people lose their jobs, although salary restructuring is no bad thing, but surely there has never been a better time for clubs to seriously consider administration and the consequences that go with that. Fans will understand that it is far more important that ‘winding up orders’ & ‘liquidation’ are prevented.

(although i have mentioned the ‘dangerous precedent’ once or twice on here 😉

This ‘time of correction’ is what has been on the cards since (S)DM introduced himself into our game.

Time to embrace what we have and see if we can make it as good as possible … In My Opinion ;

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bad capt madmanPosted on2:23 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Neipheed,

It is precisely because the 5 way agreement couldn’t be supported by member clubs and the general public that it will not be made available voluntarily by the parties involved.

The exception of course is CG, who has probably consided it as a useful threat to hold over the other parties, hence the lack of any action by the authorities over e.g. unacceptable singing and CG’s regular statements which if they had come from anyone else would result in charges of bringing the game into disrepute.

Sorry to be writing such obvious stuff, but it probably needs to be said regularly to keep reminding ourselves of just how bad it is.

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bluPosted on2:25 pm - Nov 14, 2012


paulsatim says:
Cant a FOI request be made regarding the 5 way “agreement”?
==================================================
Paul, FOI applies to public bodies so not to any of those involved the 5-way Agreement. The people who can access and publicise the commitments made in that agreement (if it was ever a formal agreement) are the member clubs of the SFA/SFL/SPL it was made on behalf of. Maybe they already know and don’t want it publicised or are constrained by a confidentiality clause?

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thespecialswonPosted on2:25 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Am I going mad, or am I right in thinking, remembering, that Mr Charles Green, the Great Sevconian, said, something along the lines of, if not exactly….

“We’ve never been in the SPL” closely followed by, “I bought those trophies, fair and square”.

I’m sure he did, but so little has ever been made of two of Mr Green’s most straight-forward pronoucements.

Can anyone confirm, or otherwise?

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garrymc73Posted on2:29 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Retweet @bbcjimspence

Jane Lewis @JaneLewisSport 7m
#Alloa say they’re expecting to receive Scottish Cup money from #Rangers tomorrow. No request for late payment, cash always due on that date

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AuldheidPosted on2:29 pm - Nov 14, 2012


john clarke says:

Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 13:28

I reckon the men of courage and integrity are hamstrung by the delay in the FTTT decision.but a rumour from someone on CQN with an HMRC contact is that it will proclaim by Monday.

A lot will depend on what comes out but if it is at all damning, the mindset that created the conditions that led to Rangers downfall (and the SFA were part of that mindset from the placement of Rangers men in their midst) will struggle to withstand any challenge.

On a practical point supporters demanding and SFA EGM via their clubs is one way to go.

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thespecialswonPosted on2:30 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Did I also imagine that Mr Malcolm Murray, another Great Sevconian, previously confirm earlier that Sevco owned the stadium, car park and training facility?

Now it’s being described in the Investor presentation as being an asset they will purchase for GBP1.5m

How is this possible, they are going to buy something they already own….?

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DAVAD00Posted on2:32 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Slimshady 61

Seeing your name at the top of a Post, just made my day. Welcome home. This I am sure, from many thousands of Lurkers.

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Palacio67Posted on2:34 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Welcome Back Slim
54(Days AWOL) – 0

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Reilly1926Posted on2:38 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Either Mr Charles firmly believes that there are Berrs out there with loads of money stuffed under mattress’ or he is utterly desperate and in real need for this to work as soon as possible. The timing, one, week before Christmas, is very odd. Shirley he doesn’t want his audience to deprive their kids of their Christmas and divert the money into his scheme. That would be too mean spirited even for Mr Charles ?

If that is his thinking I reckon he has mis-judged Mrs Berr in Scotland badly. They will not let their weans go without Christmas for love nor money.

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paulmac2Posted on2:41 pm - Nov 14, 2012


whullie says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 14:16
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Need to check with FIFA…the issue being that the SFA are deemed the governing body for Scottish football therefore you would need to a member of that body in order to participate in UEFA competitions…for FIFA to oust them may require more than just a we don’t agree with them…I don’t know of any other association this has happened to?…I know of national associations that have been suspended…but not disbanded and replaced.

Secondly the SFA are one of the bodies on the world decision making for football…where there are only 8 members who decide…I’m sure there will be those within FIFA who would bend over backwards to remove one of the 4 home nations from the board…but I’m not sure how that could be achieved..

I will now go and see what I can find regards the changing of a member associations governing body to a new entity.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on2:41 pm - Nov 14, 2012


garrymc73 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 14:29
1 0 Rate This
Retweet @bbcjimspence

Jane Lewis @JaneLewisSport 7m
#Alloa say they’re expecting to receive Scottish Cup money from #Rangers tomorrow. No request for late payment, cash always due on that date

================================================

the key word in that is EXPECTING.

Funnily enough, I emailed Alloa FC this morning to ask if RFC had asked for any sort of delay in payment or if the money has been paid as per the rules in SFA handbook.

I guess a few folk had been asking so they let the Beeb announce this to save a lot of emails being typed!

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ExiledCeltPosted on2:43 pm - Nov 14, 2012


After reading the Rangers PPT I am having serious second thoughts about investing the 15K I had promised to invest on the Sevco website. I will wait for the prospectus before making a firm committment 🙂

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thespecialswonPosted on2:51 pm - Nov 14, 2012


@Slimshady – pardon my Italian, but “dove sei stato” ????

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paulmac2Posted on2:51 pm - Nov 14, 2012


I have received an invite to attend a meeting at the House of Commons next Wednesday…the guest speaker in committee room 15 is a chap by the name of Frank Vogl…his chosen topic of discussion..”waging war on corruption”

Wonder if he will have any comparisons to what we have experienced in Scottish football?

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neepheidPosted on2:52 pm - Nov 14, 2012


exiledcelt says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 13:40
3 0 Rate This
Neepheid – I never claimed it to be complete unfortunately – only that is was the one and only public viewing of anything that was agreed……….its absurd no one has published it – much like the Sky deal that claimed it was needing 4 derbies a year even thought there was a possibility (remote) that after a split it could be all toast.
======
I wasn’t criticising you, anything but. It is very useful to know what’s in the public domain. However I intend emailing Mr Lawell this very afternoon to enquire whether he, or anyone else on the board at Celtic, has seen the final version of the 5 way agreement. And if they have, could a copy be published, please? And if a copy can’t be published, then why not? And if they haven’t seen it, then don’t they think maybe they should have? Lawell is just for starters, Messrs Regan, Doncaster and Longmuir are next on my to-do list.

I would encourage paying customers of other clubs to approach their own board members.

In just about any other country in Western Europe, their journalists would be going for the contents of this agreement like dogs after a bone. Scotland? Sorry, not interested, the chumps who pay our wages don’t need to know stuff like that. An absolute, unmitigated disgrace.

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slimshady61Posted on2:54 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Palacio67 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 14:34

54(Days AWOL) – 0

🙂

I have moved on from that moniker since the dignity clock has indeed been reset to 0.

It would be nice though if the soon-to-be-liquidated entity had a few of those ill-gotten titles removed from it first; hopefully that nice Mr McKenzie will shortly be restored to rude health.

Despite the desperate deckchair re-arrangement proposal, the landscape remains depressingly the same. I still remain unconvinced that the FTT will report soon, though would love that to happen – perhaps I can discern some information on my visit to Pump Court Tax Chambers tomorrow….?
I believe the publication of this decision, when it comes, will hole HMS Zombie below the waterline once and for all, and Speirs’ puff piece on Sir No Name will come to look like the most ill-timed article since “Dewey Wins” heralded the victory of Harry Truman.

Meantime Sir Minty seems to have taken up almost permanent residence at his lawyers’ office, what can it all mean?

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smartie1947Posted on2:55 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Re Alloa.
Far better to e-mail Alloa on Friday to see if Jane’s tweet has actually come to fruition.
Then e-mail them again next week to see if the cheque was met.!

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ExiledCeltPosted on3:06 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Neepheid – no worries – did not mean anyhting by it – but agree with you 100% that if the Livi chairman admits to never seeing it, the odds are no one else has seen it – that alone wouild make you wonder what it contains…….

And as one poster says, maybe that opens up ND and SR to a little blackmail by the delusional but otherwise well meaning legend in in his own lunchtime 🙂

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SeniorPosted on3:20 pm - Nov 14, 2012


I have read through The Rangers Football Club Limited presentation to potential investors, yes it may be a spoof but I would far from surprised if it is genuine.
________________________________________
As far as I can make out it has’n,t been refuted yet. It has be the real thing or surely they would be out of the blocks to clear the air (sic) This has the potential to scupper the whole farrago, if indeed the flotation was ever a runner.

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tomtomPosted on3:20 pm - Nov 14, 2012


The clamour for cash has now begun in earnest. RFC season tickets now available for £120. This is for an adult main stand ticket. Works out at £7.69 pence per game net of VAT.

Wife’s nephew just got the text so I know it’s kosher.

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easternexpatPosted on3:29 pm - Nov 14, 2012


There certainly appears to be a coordinated campaign happening in the press with “just” Walter and SounEBT widely reported whilst making themselves available for interview along with some strong puff pieces (including a shocker by the man with the white bricks). The fact that Walter Smith is seen as a validatory stamp strikes me as very odd. I have nothing against him personally but the real chance here was to move forward and his appointment seems to suggest that all was well in the old days, so let’s return to them. Why this is happening now points towards a potentially poor share issue and if the PPT document is real then there is no surprise there.

Charles Green’s comments should simply be ignored until some substance emerges. The level of contradiction is astonishing and I only hope the more diligent of reporters is writing it all down – we on here have picked most of it up for them – as it will make good reading eventually.

We were told by some journalists recently that the “old firm” derby was missed by us all.

Not by me!

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coineanachantaighePosted on3:53 pm - Nov 14, 2012


easternexpat says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 15:29
We were told by some journalists recently that the “old firm” derby was missed by us all.

Not by me!
——————————————————————–

I did miss it …. in the sense of not realising it wasn’t happening. Things have been going well on the football front (national team excepted) and I just hadn’t been paying attention so it hadn’t even entered my thoughts in any way.

Not that I ever looked out for it but reading what you just said reminded me it wasn’t happening and that somehow things are feeling much better without it.

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arabest1Posted on3:58 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Just to add, good to see you back Slim!

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Danish PastryPosted on4:01 pm - Nov 14, 2012


tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 15:20
5 0 Rate This
The clamour for cash has now begun in earnest. RFC season tickets now available for £120. This is for an adult main stand ticket. Works out at £7.69 pence per game net of VAT.

Wife’s nephew just got the text so I know it’s kosher.
————-

Tomtom,
You are referring to the 2013-14 season, not an offer for the remainder of the 2012-13 season?

Already on sale??

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wottpiPosted on4:01 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Am I the only one feeling that people are once again clutching at straws while we wait for the FTTT, LNS, confirmation of a legitimate prospectus and a half decent attempt at league reconstruction.

Orange Poppies – there were none
Alloa Cup Money – the club appears to be happy with the arrangements/agreements to date.
Mid Season tickets – Aberdeen and Dunfermline made similar offers this month as it makes sense to try and get a few more thorugh the turnstiles for the second half of the season.

Yes we must keep vigilant and follow up leads but lets watch we don’t go over the score.

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FIFAPosted on4:01 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Or is that season ticket just for Scottish Cup games

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Wynnvegas (@wynnvegas)Posted on4:07 pm - Nov 14, 2012


I may be alone on this one but i really like the proposals being put forward by the SFL. The league structure is interesting and the cup proposal looks very promising as well. If the start date is to be season 2015/16 then I’m in. If it is a backdoor proposal to fastrack Sevco into the SPL (or whatever it needs to be called to allow Charles Green to have Sevco play in it), forget it.

I imagine the latter but bad intent doesn’t necessary mean that these are bad ideas.

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tomtomPosted on4:07 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Danish Pastry says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:01

tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 15:20
5 0 Rate This
The clamour for cash has now begun in earnest. RFC season tickets now available for £120. This is for an adult main stand ticket. Works out at £7.69 pence per game net of VAT.

Wife’s nephew just got the text so I know it’s kosher.
————-

Tomtom,
You are referring to the 2013-14 season, not an offer for the remainder of the 2012-13 season?

Already on sale??
—————————-

Remainder of this season. 13 games left on it.

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Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia)Posted on4:18 pm - Nov 14, 2012


wottpi says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:01

I agree. I have seen half season tickets for sale by Celtic in previous seasons, if not this one. Yet.

Is there any source for the Alloa Cup money other than a taxi driver? Phil McGiollabhain posted a semi cryptic tweet about it and that is his style with his more speculative stuff but nothing of substance. Are we not still within the 14 day period within which payment is due.

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Danish PastryPosted on4:18 pm - Nov 14, 2012


tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:07
1 0 Rate This

Remainder of this season. 13 games left on it.
———-

Thanks, I thought for a minute it was a car-boot sale … 🙂

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tibfkaelcPosted on4:18 pm - Nov 14, 2012


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20329684

SFL clubs propose new three-tier league system in Scotland
The 30 Scottish Football League clubs have unanimously voted to propose a new three-tier league structure of 16, 10 and 16 teams for season 2014-15.

Its top-flight would be called the Premier Division, the second the Championship and the third would be called the First Division.

The plan involves a merger between the SFL and the Scottish Premier League.

SFL chief executive David Longmuir’s plan would require agreement from the SPL and the Scottish FA.

Following a meeting at Hampden, the SFL is also proposing a new format for the Scottish League Cup based on a seeding system similar to the Champions League.

Longmuir’s original proposal had raised the possibility of second sides from Celtic and Rangers being added to the bottom tier.

But a number of clubs had voiced their opposition to the idea ahead of Wednesday’s meeting.

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smartie1947Posted on4:27 pm - Nov 14, 2012


For what it may be worth.
Post on KDS a few minutes ago states FTT result will be available for public consumption on Monday coming.
Source claims to be from HMRC employee.
I hope this report is actually correct after so many false dawns.

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bobferrisPosted on4:29 pm - Nov 14, 2012


I hope that the SFL clubs voting for this is on the condition that there must be no “colt” teams. It would be an absolute outrage if that were to happen and will drive myself and many others away from football. I’m sure it is Green and his friends at the SFL pushing for this so the Rangers fans need never bother about going to away matches.The proposals for the League Cup are laughable. Sections didn’t work before, crowds are down for a knockout tie, how are they going to rise for sections?

Why not call the divisions the First, Second and Third? The idea of the bottom division being called the First is comic.

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tomtomPosted on4:31 pm - Nov 14, 2012


I’m well aware that most, if not all, the other clubs offer half season tickets at reduced prices but they are only 5 games into an 18 home game season. They claim to have sold 36,000 already and regularly sell the other tickets available (almost full house every home game remember) so it doesn’t make sense to effectively give them away.

An offer like this in January would have made sense. Such an offer now smacks of desperation.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on4:38 pm - Nov 14, 2012


just read the SFL proposals on both BBC and STV sites

the extent of the proposals are juggling the number of teams in leagues and changing the number of promo/relegation spots and introducing play offs

juggling the numbers of teams in the leagues is pretty pointless – you’ll have 4-8 teams in the middle with nothing to play for in the “premier division” (premier, championship and 1st – FFS, stop being arseholes and call it 1st, 2nd and 3rd)

play offs and increased Promo/relegation I am in favour of.

I didn’t see any mention of finances, redistribution of TV/Sponsorship money

I didn’t see any move to change the start/finish of the season

Didn’t see any reference to things like FFP, control on spending/debt, squad size, inclusion of domestically trained/youth players

No mention of pyramid system, introducing Highland/west/East scotland teams and/or the juniors

Really, how much thought/effort has gone into this? i’d love to see the PPT presentation that they gave, would make Sevco look like Creative IT wizards!!!

What an absolutely pathetic “vision” for the game

Out of interest, I don’t expect the SPL proposal to be any better

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spurtlePosted on4:40 pm - Nov 14, 2012


bobferris70 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:29

Why not call the divisions the First, Second and Third? The idea of the bottom division being called the First is comic.

=======

The whole proposal is comic.

Indeed, what is wrong with naming them the First, Second, and Third divisions? And why should they be different sizes?

And where is the pyramid feeder? Until there is relegation from the SFL we are going nowhere.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on4:46 pm - Nov 14, 2012


RFC official site has the same league reconstruction story – but interestingly it also has this gem missed off the beeb and stv sites

————————————————-
The bottom side in the three leagues would play the best side from a pyramid structure to keep their league status.

A winter break for the Premier Division is incorporated into the proposal.
—————————————————-

so, thats a good idea

View Comment

angus1983Posted on4:52 pm - Nov 14, 2012


tibfkaelc says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:18

Its top-flight would be called the Premier Division, the second the Championship and the third would be called the First Division.
——

Eh? What manner of Orwellian nonsense is this?

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manandboyPosted on4:52 pm - Nov 14, 2012


(The name ‘Photoshop’ is used to mean different things in this piece)

Anyone who works with images will be familiar with ‘Photoshop’

Photoshop is an image editing software program

It is widely used

So much so that there is hardly an image that we see in the print/tv media in our daily lives that has not been edited in some way and most likely in Photoshop.

This is common knowledge

This knowledge should make Scottish football fans alert when we are presented with an image or picture.

As we all know, we are constantly asked to believe a constant stream of ever changing plans and programmes, of images and visions wrt the Gers/Bad-gers and the future of the game in Scotland

These plans come to us from the usual sources and through the usual channels

Sadly, as we all know, the usual sources and channels are operated by people who always have something to hide which usually means that the ‘Gers factor is present.

Consequently, they cannot tell us the truth.

Consequently, they do not, and will not, tell us the truth.

What they do instead is to offer us a pack of lies dressed up to look like the truth

Which is where Photoshop comes in and in particular it’s editing functions

These functions are well known to the Gers, to Jack Irvine at Media House, to the SFA, the SPL and of course to the bulk of the MSM

They use them constantly because they have to

The alternative is to tell the truth.

The editing functions most frequently used by the above are called, ‘skew’ ‘distort’ and ‘warp’.

With these, and a few others, as their names suggest, you can change reality and make it unrecognisable

You can make everything black, white

And everything white, black

You can even make everything that was once blue into Green

(You could almost call the Bad-gers the Green Brigade! – but that would be insulting to the GB.)

Reality is changed

In Photoshop

In RFC(IL)

In Bad-gers

In the SFA

And of course in the MSM.

If the only way we can live our football lives is by being processed daily through Photoshop then heaven help us.

The only alternative is for Scottish footbal to do the truth and in fitba’ that means live by the rules, play by the rules.

And the usual suspects who play only by Gers rules?

That’s easy

Select, cut.

In Photoshop

View Comment

Sixtae SevenPosted on4:58 pm - Nov 14, 2012


With the SFL proposal, would the SPL be liquidated and reborn as T’Scottish Premier Division?

View Comment

StevieBCPosted on5:01 pm - Nov 14, 2012


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20319153

“…It’s fantastic news,” said McLeish. “It just seems a perfect fit for Walter Smith to be part of Rangers.

“Not only his business acumen, but his football brain, is a great asset to the football club.” …
========================

So there you have it: Sir Walter is going to share his ‘business acumen’ with The Rangers. 🙄

…so why did he not share it when Rangers was going down the toilet ?

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arabest1Posted on5:15 pm - Nov 14, 2012


business acumen?………..hee hee…………the same business acumen that opted to spunk £20 million on players when they had a £20 million tax bill? Dear dear the comedy continues 🙂

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scottcPosted on5:16 pm - Nov 14, 2012


StevieBC says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 17:01

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20319153

“…It’s fantastic news,” said McLeish. “It just seems a perfect fit for Walter Smith to be part of Rangers.

“Not only his business acumen, but his football brain, is a great asset to the football club.” …
========================

So there you have it: Sir Walter is going to share his ‘business acumen’ with The Rangers.

…so why did he not share it when Rangers was going down the toilet ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#

I wonder how his ‘football brain’ will work when there is no financial doping involved. It came a bit unstuck at Everton did it not?

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on5:36 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Rona Dougall ‏@ronadougallnews
#scotnight we have exclusive story on #rangers share issue. And we will be speaking to #kevinbridges ! 10.15 tonight.
Retweeted by Peter A Smith

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StevieBCPosted on5:40 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Is this the calm before the storm ?
===========================
Been catching up with posts and along with the puzzling return of Sir W, we now have Souness and McLeish queuing up to give their opinions on The Rangers. Even Dave King has been mentioned in the media this week.

So, these guys in recent months have been virtually ‘hermit-like’ wrt The Rangers.
We also expect them to be implicated in more EBT dealings and bad news in due course.

So instead of still keeping their heads down, why are they now brazenly offering their ‘expert opinions’ to the MSM about The Rangers ?

Is this the precursor to Jack’s ‘final offensive’ ? [on many levels 😉 ]
We are waiting for the FTT result to be made public.
Indications are that it has been delayed by Minty’s side.

So, are we about to see a full-on PR assault from the MSM – possibly with the assistance of the above characters – to preempt and then to ‘discredit’ the FTT result and to deflect from its findings ?

[Is the whole league restructuring nonsense part of this strategy in some way ?]

Is Jack contemplating his final payday coming from Govan ? [Don’t accept a cheque Jack… 😉 ]

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smartie1947Posted on5:55 pm - Nov 14, 2012


C’mon all you conspiracy theorists.
If my post (16.37) re FTT due on Monday 19th is correct, then allowing the known 10 day period of grace, relevant parties must have been notified on Friday the 9th.
Since then we have had Sir Walter join the board, Imran Ahmed has perhaps left the board, claptrap from Souness, and a PPP which may or may not be a hoax. Meanwhile Green’s roadshow is hoovering up the bucks from investment managers across Canary Wharf and Alloa may or may not get paid tomorrow.
And all this when we are all on tenterhooks waiting for Billy Stark’s international debut against the might of Luxemburg..
Life’s never dull in Scottish football.

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on6:00 pm - Nov 14, 2012


It may not be evident from recent results but I’m sure, like me, many Celtic fans feel that with the current team something very special is on the horizon. I also have no doubt that the rest of the SPL teams’ fans are seeing their chance to sieze the day, and believe that their future is bright and tangarine or red or maybe black and white striped.

I know why the top brass (necks) want change and it disgusts me.
I know why Rangers were allowed to cheat us all for God knows how long, and it disgusts me.

I can remember the eighties; Aberdeen, Celtic, Hearts (nearly) and Dundee United regularly won the league and cups.

I don’t know what it proves, but I looked at the ’82 and 86 World Cup Squads to see how many of the players were picked whilst playing for a Scottish team:

Jim Leighton (AFC)
Willie Miller (AFC)
Gordon Strachan (AFC)
Alex McLeish (AFC)
James Bett (AFC)

David Narey (DUFC)
Paul Sturrock (DUFC)
Maurice Malpas (DUFC)
Eamon Bannon (DUFC)
Richard Gough (DUFC)

Danny McGrain (CFC)
Davie Provan (CFC)

Alan Rough (Hibs, Thistle)

Davie Cooper (RFC)

*Steve Archibald (Barca)
*Charlie Nicholas (Gunners)

I included the last 2 as the squad was a bit thin on strikers and to my mind they made their names in Scotland before walking away. Quite a squad isn’t it?

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paulsatimPosted on6:20 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Just missed STV news, DOH! Caught end of programme said they would look further at “the rangers story”……………………….

gerry crawford ‏@girobhoy
@Pmacgiollabhain stv analyst to cast doubt on Charles green’s IPO being achievable while documents reveal dramatic wage cuts to come !!
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite
4m Phil MacGiollaBhain ‏@Pmacgiollabhain
@girobhoy Surely not… #SevcoCashFlow

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NeilRPosted on6:25 pm - Nov 14, 2012


bobferris70 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:29

Why not call the [SFL] divisions the First, Second and Third? The idea of the bottom division being called the First is comic.

Why not call them the Second, Third and Fourth? The idea of the second division being called the First is comic too.

View Comment

nowoldandgrumpyPosted on6:25 pm - Nov 14, 2012


paulsatim on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 13:58
3 0 Rate This
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 11:43

Cant a FOI request be made regarding the 5 way “agreement”?
——–
I am sure that was raised earlier and the consensus was no

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jonnyodPosted on6:37 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Re Alloa getting the SC gate money surely with all the internet bampots attention on this there is no way CG will delay this money ,if he does then things must really be as bad as some are predicting

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calumcrofterPosted on6:47 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Stevie BC at 17.40 is puzzled by the return of ‘Rangers minded’ people – Walter, Alex, Graeme and Mr King- to the fore. Hope, Stevie, that you will not be gobsmacked when Bomber Brown is wheeled in with his (scripted) endorsement of developments.

Another prediction – a Charlie will head off across the border in the not too distant future vowing never to come to Scotland/Glasgow again. His friends at Ibrox will have persuaded him to accept a severance payment – a ‘generous’ return on his time and investment. He will be happy to leave with anything.

‘Rangers minded’ people – ‘legends’ and fans with big money- are regrouping. They have seen Charlie, against big odds, bring fans onside. He has looked out for the interests of Ticketus, Whyte etc. but now is a time of opportunity.

Bye,bye Charlie.

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neepheidPosted on6:52 pm - Nov 14, 2012


bobferris70 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:29
Why not call the [SFL] divisions the First, Second and Third? The idea of the bottom division being called the First is comic.
==================
Well it’s a very old joke, but seems apposite.

A condom manufacturer decides to provide condoms in different sizes to suit different physiques, if you get my drift. They are, however, worried about the potential embarrassment factor for purchasers, so conduct an extensive market research exercise among their customer base to decide on what to call the different sizes. So they launch their three size range as large, extra large and enormous.

Clearly our football authorities have been doing a bit of market research themselves. And their answer really is a joke.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on6:53 pm - Nov 14, 2012


broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 18:00
5 0 Rate This

Good post ! Indeed that is quite a squad of players; that was a great period for the Scottish game, at club and national level… its going to take some doing to get anywhere close to that again, sadly.

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broadswordcallingdannybhoyPosted on6:59 pm - Nov 14, 2012


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 18:25

paulsatim on Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 13:58

nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 11:43

Cant a FOI request be made regarding the 5 way “agreement”?
——–
I am sure that was raised earlier and the consensus was no
==========================================================

A parliamentary inquiry can demand a peek.

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neepheidPosted on7:10 pm - Nov 14, 2012


broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 18:59

Cant a FOI request be made regarding the 5 way “agreement”?
——–
I am sure that was raised earlier and the consensus was no
==========================================================

A parliamentary inquiry can demand a peek.
=============
I would have thought that any member club of the SFA could demand a peek, or even a full copy. Surely the executive of the SFA is answerable to the members?

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bobferrisPosted on7:13 pm - Nov 14, 2012


NeilR says:

Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 18:25

bobferris70 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:29

Why not call the [SFL] divisions the First, Second and Third? The idea of the bottom division being called the First is comic.

Why not call them the Second, Third and Fourth? The idea of the second division being called the First is comic too.
———————————————————————————————————————————
Thanks for incorrectly quoting me. I was referring to the three proposed new leagues, all to come under the SFL. So the First is the Premier as it is now, not the current First ie second tier.

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john clarkePosted on7:16 pm - Nov 14, 2012


iceman63 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 11:32
‘Perhaps John Clarke ..should also write to the Royal British Legion about the damage to reputation such scenes have inflicted upon an event of genuine personal significance for many of us. ‘
—–
I’ve just re-watched the video clips.

You’re right.

I will write.

The officers of the RBL that I had official dealings with 30 years ago as a Civil servant would have been appalled at that abuse of uniform for purposes unconnected with remembrance of fallen comrades.

Truly appalled.

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ecobhoyPosted on7:17 pm - Nov 14, 2012


smartie1947 says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 17:55

re: Imran Ahmed has perhaps left the board
—————————————————————————–

Yes and no – he won’t be on the PLC board after flotation but on the lower level club board along with Ally. Imran is supposed to be happy with this and doesn’t see it as a slap in the face. This is the man that brought Green into the deal last February as the ‘front’ and worked with Zeus Capital to provide critical capital to buy the assets. Chico has agreed with that version of ‘history’ but also told another one which was a Singapore investor that got him involved with Rangers.

However, Imran then chucks his job in as MD of Zeus on 17 October to become commercial director of Rangers and somewhere along the line apparently amasses £2.2m in shares but moves down the pyramid structure – wonder what names chico is going to label his various Boards with – maybe the SFL can provide some pointers 🙂

Being suspicious I wonder if these moves will have any effect on the lock-down aspect of his shares after flotation and it’s thought that his position on the main board will be replaced by another Zeus appointee. There does no appear to have been any recent announcement as to whether Rangers Finance Director Brian Stockbridge is also still a director of Zeus Capital.

So lots of movement going on and likely to continue.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on7:33 pm - Nov 14, 2012


The SFL proposal for league names allows Sevco to jump from the Third to the First in one season, as opposed to staying in the Third…. That’s how Longmuir sold it to Chuckles… he was delighted… he can put that on the share issue presentation… happy Chuckles, happy Longmuir…. still f*nnies !

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on7:36 pm - Nov 14, 2012


neepheid says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 19:10
1 0 Rate This
broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Wednesday, November 14, 201

I would have thought that any member club of the SFA could demand a peek, or even a full copy. Surely the executive of the SFA is answerable to the members?
=================

No they are only answerable to God and he is busy

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TSFMPosted on7:57 pm - Nov 14, 2012


smartie1947 says:

Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 16:27(Edit)

For what it may be worth.
Post on KDS a few minutes ago states FTT result will be available for public consumption on Monday coming.
Source claims to be from HMRC employee.
I hope this report is actually correct after so many false dawns.
_________________________________________________________________________

I got that info this a.m. from a source, and have spent much of the day unsuccessfully trying confirm the story.

I don’t doubt the source, but the delay over publication is in the interest of, and seems to be actively encouraged by, those who will ultimately be held to account. It wouldn’t surprise me that we still have a way to go.

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TSFMPosted on8:04 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Does anyone know if Walter Smith a director of Rangers at any time in the last five years?

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calumcrofterPosted on8:20 pm - Nov 14, 2012


neepheid says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 18:Well it’s a very old joke, but seems apposite.

A condom manufacturer decides to provide condoms in different sizes to suit different physiques, …………..

———————————————————————————————————————–

The diaphragm was also provided by condom manufacturers in different sizes. I have heard the experience of a mismatch described as “like throwing a banana up a close”.

Sorry, TSFM, but maybe a thought for those who wish for the return of the Old Firm.

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neepheidPosted on8:22 pm - Nov 14, 2012


TSFM says:
Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 20:04
0 0 Rate This
Does anyone know if Walter Smith a director of Rangers at any time in the last five years?
====
I don’t think Smith has ever been a director of Rangers before now. If he had been, I assume he would automatically fail the “fit and proper person” test.

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tomtomPosted on8:24 pm - Nov 14, 2012


TSFM says:

Wednesday, November 14, 2012 at 20:04

Does anyone know if Walter Smith a director of Rangers at any time in the last five years?
—————————————-
Resigned 12 Aug 1998

View Comment

torrejohnbhoyPosted on8:31 pm - Nov 14, 2012


TSFM,don’t know if this helps:

http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/910189465

View Comment

torrejohnbhoyPosted on8:37 pm - Nov 14, 2012


Barcabhoy ‏@Barcabhoy1

It would be harsh to lay responsibility for the EBT scheme at Walters door, however was he a director when the small tax case surfaced ?

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