A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
thebasharmilesteg says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:10
Sorry, lost last para.
It should read, It has also been conveniently forgotten that they lost the Wee Tax Case and by Whyte’s own admission traded while insolvent and withheld payment of NIc and VAT. Which, irrespective of guilt or innoence is hardly a record to be proud of.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not forgetting of course that the sole purpose of the EBT was to have the tax man pay for players they couldn’t afford otherwise. Tax avoidance was the driving force at the heart of this great Scottish Institution! – Print that Jabba.
Re your point about QC’s – Thornhill is the recognised expert in this field. My belief is the two FTT majority members gave far to much respect to him and his strategy to the extent they ignored or played down important evidence.
Had never seen these detailed BBC pages until today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818
All this cash being stuffed into trusts, tax-free, while the club went belly up? Makes it more real with photos of the recipients. No wonder there was a bank debt.
Is there some kind of tax-free world record in there somewhere? Prize-giving ceremony being held at Dodge City 🙂
smugas says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 14:31
As far as I can see, your summary has ther trust paying out twice – once initially to pay (loan!) the player his £1m and pay the £500k interest, then later to his dependants to repay the £1.5m ‘loan’.
I know the trusts were generous (£300k to Bert Konterman, anyone!), but double your money would be even worse!
Nawlite
Correct. Paid out twice (to father and to kids) and received back once (from kids clearing father’s loan
That still means the player gets £1m by way of loan which is never to be repaid, yes? Where can I get one of those please?
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:22
Had never seen these detailed BBC pages until today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818
All this cash being stuffed into trusts, tax-free, while the club went belly up? Makes it more real with photos of the recipients. No wonder there was a bank debt.
Is there some kind of tax-free world record in there somewhere? Prize-giving ceremony being held at Dodge City 🙂
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The use of bank debt/MIH loans to put cash in to a loss making company to enable it to make contributions to the EBT increased the tax losses of Rangers which could be surrendered to the MIH group thus saving Corporation Tax, as well as increasing the loss further because of interest payable on the debt.
In effect – three bites at the HMRC Cherry!If one includes the EBT PAYE & NIC avoidance.
Nawlite,
Apparently a Mr Red of Charlotte Square, Edinburgh will see you right.
forweonlyknow says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:16
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My tuppence worth! Again it’s the media that ends up boiling my blood! ;
http://forweonlyknow.wordpress.com/2012/11/22/shred-it-owed-444-00/
===============================================================
For we only know – it may be hugely frustrating for you, Dr Poon and maybe even me that evidence was apparently missing but I think we have to accept that FTTT has to make a decision on the basis of the evidence presented and the case argued by legal representatives of the respondents HMRC and appellants MIH. In this tribunal though the existence of a number of ‘side letters’ was noted in the decison e.g. in the case of Mr Berwick’s sub-trust, uncovered by City of London Police. It may be that HMRC and others will have some work outstanding.
Mr Purple = Neil McCann. Comes out of it quite well. Definitely not Dodds.
The Dissenter.
206. I am persuaded by Mr Thomson’s submissions that the facts should be viewed
5 realistically to give effect to the overall intention of the employers, the expectations of
the employees, and the nature of the money advanced. In this regard, the steps
encompassing the scheme are viewed as a composite transaction, whereby payments
made through the trust mechanism achieved the end result of placing the funds
‘unreservedly at the disposal’ of the protector/employees.
(i) That the side-letters established the contractual obligation and
entitlement between the employers and the employees to the effect that
the former undertook to make available specified sums of money to
reach the relevant sub-trusts on specified dates. The timing and the
amount formed part of that contractual obligation.
(ii) That the loan requests were triggers for the payments specified by the
side-letters to be processed.
(iii) That the loan requests were accompanied by contributions to the main
Trust. The Appellants sought to distance the linkage between
contributions to the main Trust and allocation of funds to the sub-trusts
for loan advancement. The reality is that the two steps were conjoined,
with the loan requests determining the amounts and to which sub-trusts
would the headline contributions be allocated.
(iv) That the loan requests were the only documents for each transaction to
reach the trustees, who would allocate contributions into the sub-trusts
according to the loan requests so that there would be the exact amounts
for each loan request to be processed. The Appellants had control over
the application of trust funds, not the trustees.
(v) That the trustees did not exercise, were not expected to exercise, any
discretion in the granting of loans; that their real functions consisted in
processing payments to the employees through their sub-trusts. They
acted as a cipher for the payments; they were there to provide a ‘trust
veil’ for the payments.
(vi) That the employees had in effect unfettered access to and absolute
control of the money allocated to their sub-trusts through their role as
Protector.
(vii) That the payments through the sub-trusts were money made
‘unreservedly at the disposal’ of the employees, if the facts are viewed
realistically. Though every sum of money remitted to the employee’s
personal account is legally characterised as a loan, the loan has no
commercial reality; no security is required; it is never expected to be
repaid by the employee; repayment will never be enforced by the
trustees; no interest is ever due for payment; interest is a ‘paper debt’ to
augment the inheritance tax benefit on death.
Buba3d, one of the most frequent posters on the Rangers Media forum, is now openly issuing death threats:
“The day the names get leaked is the day they better start making funeral plans, rangers isn’t just a football club it’s our blood and when somebody tries to kill our club well……. god help them.”
Over to you, Stephen House . . .
Night Terror says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:53
Neil McCann Aug 11:
“I received independent advice from solicitor & was confirmed EBT was 100% legal. We beat everyone put in our way. We won titles on the park, fairly & they should remain with us and the Club. It’s still Rangers. I signed ONE CONTRACT only. Categorically titles should not be stripped”.
From report:
Mr Purple: “From [what] I can recall I think the payments were made October and February, … what was agreed. So when it was coming to that time, I just had to sign a form that I think Mr Grey had given to me saying – to ask the trust for the loan so that the money could be paid. … I had no doubts that they would be paid on the dates that were specified.”
So he signed his ‘real contract’ then he signed in October and February …. Granted I may be wrong that a ‘Form’ releasing an addition loan (read payment) is not actually a ‘contract’ as such.
Apologies if that’s the case.
Regarding Mr Ely – I found it quite amusing that he would be due a 20% cut of any transfer fee whereby he was sold to someone else for more than £12.5m.
Can’t fault him for his optimism, but nobody in their right mind would pay £12.5m for him, surely. Surely?
To add to my earlier question The list from the Record
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-the-former-rangers-players-paid-1447843
appears to be taken almost verbatim from the bbc report here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818
With the exception of the following omissions
Robert Reilly Robert Reilly was Rangers’ commercial director and helped generate income for the Ibrox club.
Campbell Ogilvie At club from 1978 to 2005 as general secretary and later a director. Now president of the SFA.
Anybody any ideas why they are not listed by the Record?
Someone knows where the blame lies:
http://90minutecynic.com/the-big-tax-case-verdict/
forweonlyknow says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:03
That’s just McCann describing how he applied for his loans. Nothing to do with his contract signing.
“Mr Purple was sold to another club on 5 August 2003 for £1.75 million”
Not hard to work out.
Still unanswered questions for me. I have hunches as I allude to below but I want definitive and I’m not holding out for the MSM any time soon.
1/ Were 30 of the 81 tax claims settled out of court? Both quantum and actual payment made.
2/ Would HMRC not get more success in terms of actual money recovery going after sevco (via BDO) particularly the £5.5m all-in valuation as opposed to the Trust on appeal. Even if the appeal is successful and they overcome the “it was the trust, not oldco” arguement they’re ultimately going to come up against the brick wall of oldco being a busted flush in any case. Obviously this one would be more to do with MIH and I confess I would have a wee bit of sympathy if Rangers got caught in the crossfire. Just a wee bit mind.
3/ If Ticketus did claim their debt did HMRC still have the required 75% voting right for the CVA? Can’t think why ticketus wouldn’t have mind you but it would be another twist of the ironic spear if Whyte’s switcharoo on the cheap ultimately led to an unnecessary liquidation.
4/ I still find it incredible that the most successful manager that’s ever worn a cardigan isn’t mentioned. On a completely unrelated topic has anyone questioned the unused sub trust 66 (was it?) and checked the timing against numbers 65 and 67? Just a thought.
I want answers. I demand to know etc etc
Night Terror says: Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:53
Mr Purple = Neil McCann. Comes out of it quite well. Definitely not Dodds.
================
Spot on with NMcC. The judgement even states the date of his £1.75 transfer from RFC as 5th Aug 2003, a date which is confirmed in his Wiki entry.
bogsdollox says: Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:20
Not forgetting of course that the sole purpose of the EBT was to have the tax man pay for players they couldn’t afford otherwise. Tax avoidance was the driving force at the heart of this great Scottish Institution! – Print that Jabba.
==============================
The FTT judgement itself confirmed the funamental argument that the EBTs enabled RFC to employ players they could not afford.
From para 207
In a nutshell two of the judges did everything they could to minimise the damage to MIH/RFC but even they couldn’t completely exonerate them. The other one tried to do what was right.
johnboy5088 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:01
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Buba3d, one of the most frequent posters on the Rangers Media forum, is now openly issuing death threats:
“The day the names get leaked is the day they better start making funeral plans, rangers isn’t just a football club it’s our blood and when somebody tries to kill our club well……. god help them.”
Over to you, Stephen House . . .
======
That should be the subject of numerous formal complaints to the Chief Constable, Strathclyde Police. What kind of country are we living in , exactly?
Am I being paranoid or is there something sinister about two prominent blogs related to this being pulled or having to delete posts in the last 48 hours. What is going on?
Who are these two prominent blogs?
I know RTC has gone, but still no word if this was forced on her, precautionary or voluntary.
Someone else?
If HMRC make a decision not to seek an appeal – is there likely to be a press release announcing that decision?
Noticeably quieter on here since Tuesday.
What’s the problem – only post when you’re winning?
Buba3d, one of the most frequent posters on the Rangers Media forum, is now openly issuing death threats:
“The day the names get leaked is the day they better start making funeral plans, rangers isn’t just a football club it’s our blood and when somebody tries to kill our club well……. god help them.”
Over to you, Stephen House . . .
======
That should be the subject of numerous formal complaints to the Chief Constable, Strathclyde Police. What kind of country are we living in , exactly?
——————————-
We’re living in the kind of country where, the so called decent journalists like Tom English have a pop at sites like this whilst not even mentioning the bile that emanates from sites like RM and the other one i cant bring myself to even say. Tom English in particular seems to have developed a split personality on these matters, reserving his considered judgement for The Scotsman and then spouting total nonsense on Sportsound…maybe he’s just scared of getting caught in the headlights? After all we live in a country racked with fear. Fear of upsetting the peepil, the peepil who demand to know names, send bombs in the post, threaten judges, rampage through the streets of manchester, terrorise the citizens of spanish towns…the permanently raging ones…..we live in a country where the tail is most definitely wagging the dog! Socially and politically. Shocking!
Night Terror says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 17:01
1 3 Rate This
Noticeably quieter on here since Tuesday.
What’s the problem – only post when you’re winning?
……………………………
Is it quieter?
If being proven to have Evaded Tax and use Dual contracts whilst concealing information from HMRC, who are there to collect money owed to me and YOU, and your family, is classed as “winning”, what exactly is losing?
Have you looked at the Tribunal findings? What’s your opinion on the proof of Millionaires cheating millions of Tax payers money? Which can and very well might be appealed
Distortion and deflection of proven facts. Is that you Jabba?
neepheid says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:45
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johnboy5088 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:01
11 0 Rate This
Buba3d, one of the most frequent posters on the Rangers Media forum, is now openly issuing death threats:
“The day the names get leaked is the day they better start making funeral plans, rangers isn’t just a football club it’s our blood and when somebody tries to kill our club well……. god help them.”
Over to you, Stephen House . . .
======
That should be the subject of numerous formal complaints to the Chief Constable, Strathclyde Police. What kind of country are we living in , exactly?
———-
It’s what happens when those in authority continually pander to a rable, whether it be through fear or acquiescence. Suddenly the mob can say or do whatever it likes. Mr Traynor is giving it laldy too, cheerleading with an I-told-you-so attitude, and at taxpayers’ expense on national radio. I hope he realises what he’s doing. What next? Brown shirts and book burnings? Anyway, I thought most sane TRFC supporters knew the names of those who destroyed the club: Two former owners, their boards, and the overpaid employees who, unlike the rest of us, got the best loan deals in history.
Is what an independent Scotland will look like?
The FTTT report is damning and points to only one reasonable result from the SPL tribunal. The evidence on side letters is as clear as can be. The efforts to hide these side letters, and clear lies and mistruths told at the tribunal, is the most distasteful part of the whole business. I was always taught to own up to my mistakes, do the right thing, be a man, have self-respect. Anyone who was brought up properly with good role models knows what I mean. To claim this as Victory is shameful.
Here’s a simple truth that is worth saying. If Rangers had bought players they could afford and cut their cloth to suit, they would still be in business and playing in the SPL. We would never have had the “Cold War Arms Race” that was so ruinous for Rangers and other clubs trying to compete. Clubs that survived still carry the burden of debt and continue to struggle in this new Scottish Football landscape. Rangers were not so lucky. Other casualties are expected.
Sounds like such a simple concept … live within your means. Why was this so difficult? Management greedy for success at all costs, players and others greedy for cash, fans kept simple and compliant by made up stories and PR fluff. Where were the fans groups who should have been challenging what was happening? Where are they now?
Calling this a “pyrrhic victory” is only half right. The Rangers I knew growing up are deceased, and the latest evidence, far from victory, would suggest they will be stripped of 5 league titles before they are finally put in the ground.
If that’s victory, I’m happy to watch from the sidelines. What a mucky business!
Night Terror says: at 17:01
Noticeably quieter on here since Tuesday. What’s the problem – only post when you’re winning?
___
Didn`t want to interrupt cluedo to remind that it`s close to the 5 Month anniversary of the launch of the criminal investigation into the acquisition – and not a word heard since. Not even to acknowledge its existence in the MSM since the Press Statement in June. Especially odd at the moment, as MSM seem very enthusiastic to report calls for new investigations and very keen to report calls to drop one particularly.
bangordub says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:53
2 0 Rate This
Am I being paranoid or is there something sinister about two prominent blogs related to this being pulled or having to delete posts in the last 48 hours. What is going on?
………………………………………..
Unsure bangordub, I doubt very much any of the crooks involved would take anyone on in open Court, so unless it is action from an independent body such as HMRC I cannot see it.
Then again, the supremacist mindset and so far untouchable criminality may have given those involved an almost delusional sense of security.
smugas says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 16:19
Knew I had a fifth question! The memory isn’t what it used to be.
What of the payments to those with no salary, Mr Black’s “Fixer” et al. What of Souness and those who’s trusts were set up and used prior to their joining the club?
Oh, and Jabba would never use the avatar ‘ordinary’ more likely ‘igotadocumentaryonce’ or ‘ivebeentojerseyandgleneagles’ or ‘memememememememe’
smugas: I wonder if Jabba will be allowed to caddy for Murray instead of Bain if he is really, really good boy.
There is still life in the tax case and it will run for quite a while yet ,but the landscape of Scotland has been changed forever ,what has came out over the last few years has exposed Scotland as a sinister country, a country for visitors to be very wary of visiting and who could or would they trust ,unfortunately I feel that there are a few innocents that will be harmed in the wake of what has been released this week simply because the blame game starts now, but as we all know ,no blame has been directed at the people that are the root cause of this issue ,and lets be clear I do not just mean RFC [RIP] the zombies that feasted on the carcass are guilty from quite a few years back and every mouthful of the succulant lamb was another part from the carcass,now ,well now they will try and spin this away from themselves but no amount of reporting can deflect this as the bears will surely realise that the rot was from within and unless they sort this they are doomed once again.
Ventured over to RM to see if it was true. Well, well, here’s a nice chap …
————-
#6 buba3d
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True Blue
16,494 posts
Gender:Male
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Posted Today, 10:04 AM
listen they went for our throats and attacked us from all sides taking turns on trying to stamp on our face, of course I want revenge but I also want blood spilled for it
————–
Thespecialswon
I also wondered about this statement pg28/29
“It was irrelevant, he continued,whether the Remuneration Trust benefit was contractual. He conceded that where it derived from a (footballer’s) side-letter it was contractual, but not in the cases of bonuses paid to employees of other Murray Group companies.”
My laymans interpretation is that where a side letter can be confirmed to exist then that forms a contractual obligation to fund the trust, i.e it would be taxable. So Murray & others outwith Rangers are ok, but the footballing side are being thrown to the wolves.
Robert Coyle – I interpreted that as meaning Mr Red & Mr Black will have some liability as the sons had no employment with MGM & Mr Red cant use his neices as beneficeries so again liable for tax.
If RTC thinks that deleting the blog will help there mistaken, I’ve worked in IT security for a long time, nothing is secret in the net, waybackmachine is a good example, plus I’d have expected Murray to instruct his cohorts to suck all the info from the blog a long time back. I wondered if some of the info released had been seeded in order to narrow down where the leaks originated, straight out the civil service leak enquiry rulebook.
Last point for now, the MSM are becoming irrelevant & they know it, the majority of the declining readership are …..Murdoch’s paywall was supposed to be the new business model, ha ha its a complete failure. This is the guy who bought MySPace for 500+ million its now worth pennies. Fear not the MSM they have proven themselves to be toothless, spineless, scumsuckers but I guess most of you already knew that, people like Daly & Thomson are very much in the minority.
madbhoy24941 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 15:06
———————————————-
I take your point. I didn’t mean that, just saying that some of his comments were typical of a lot of Rangers fans. Not that they were wrong simply because he was one.
May have not expressed myself clearly and happy to be dug up on these kind of things for the good of the site.
My word the MSM seem to have given up their three wise monkeys impression and have began taking calls for all sorts of enquiries and investigations to be started .their mantra now seems to be shout as often and as loud as you can about the 2-1 verdict to avoid the readership looking too closely at the findings within the report .
Some of the peepil appearing in the rags calling for inquiries should hang their heads in shame
All I can say is be careful what you wish for
ddmc999 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 17:50
0 0 Rate This
If RTC thinks that deleting the blog will help there mistaken, I’ve worked in IT security for a long time, nothing is secret in the net, waybackmachine is a good example, plus I’d have expected Murray to instruct his cohorts to suck all the info from the blog a long time back. I wondered if some of the info released had been seeded in order to narrow down where the leaks originated, straight out the civil service leak enquiry rulebook.
———
I’m sure RTC is aware of these things. I reckon he/she is just doing as promised, that when the judgement came through and case was effectively closed, they’d be gone. A pity really, because some interpretation and analysis from that direction would have been interesting. But it may yet be on the way. Hope so.
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 17:21
Is what an independent Scotland will look like?
_____________________________________
Not a good question to end on, Danish.
Take a look at the unionist “Ulster” and consider asking a different question.
Just saying. We are where we are, don’t lay it at the door of our current constitutional arrangements.
SDM in Evening Times says, that there will be lots of litigation, newspapers, TV and internet.
Would he dare?
In my opinion Huddle Malcontent’s contribution is the key. If they, having admitted, received x amount of money by way of a loan and not inform HMRC of these loans then revenue has a duty to pursue these outstanding payments. The fun starts when HMRC send the bill in the post, it’s at that point the dam will burst and all of a sudden these loans were not really loans at all but under-the-table contractual payments. When this happens there will be egg all over the faces of two learned gentlemen, and the barrel of worms will be opened.
The big question will be, will HMRC fulfil their statutory obligations and follow each and every one of those lucky souls who could access interest free loans without any necessity to repay the loan………….after all if it was you or I, or any other five eight we could expect the brown envelope with the crown on top to drop through the letterbox post haste.
All eyes will now turn to HMRC’s next move..
DP – Hope so, but RTC does know about encryption I picked that up from one of the tweets. Regardless 1 of the stated aims of RTC was to publish the data the MSM ignored & has left a good legacy for others to follow.
The MSM don’t typically publish outright lies (if they can avoid it) they just select what is & isn’t news by selective coverage, ask white van man about Fukishima most people think its all fixed it’s not in the news anymore, except its still spewing out radiation at a level that makes Chernobyl look like a minor oil spill.
Oh dawwell will you never learn? Notice to SSB panel – it maybe would have been helpful to swot up on the facts before trying to comment tonight 🙂
With all the shouts for inquiries and investigations then may I suggest that the first investigation should be looking at any EBT recipricants wages with the teams they played for before joining ragers compared to their wages they signed for at ragers .
Would for instance a player leaving Ajax when on 10,000 per week then be found to have signed on at Ragers for 3,000 per week ,if so why would any player do that .
redetin says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 18:10
0 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 17:21
Is what an independent Scotland will look like?
_____________________________________
Not a good question to end on, Danish.
Take a look at the unionist “Ulster” and consider asking a different question.
Just saying. We are where we are, don’t lay it at the door of our current constitutional arrangements.
————
Cheers redetin, wasn’t really passing blame, more an rhetorical question. Having lived in small Scandinavian countries for decades I’ve come more round to the nationalist agenda, for many reasons. But as far as I can see the whole handling of the Rangers situation is not something we can lay at the door of the English. So you do wonder what an independent nation would look like and how it will treat these kind of issues. Will it be essentially different from what we now see in terms of media, police, and courts? After all, we’re half-way to independence.
What different question should I consider asking?
Brenda
Heard Darwelll earlier
CW bought a club with no debt and ran up 40m of debt up in 7 months ,why would Minty sell a club with no debt for £1 would seem to be the logical question to ask oor Darwelll
Go Andy lol dawwell getting a wee bit confused!!! 🙂 rfc(il) only owe £2million this guy’s is a total riddy haha
smugas says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 12:15
“This isn’t the end. This isn’t even the beginning of the end. However, this is the end of the beginning.”
Angela Haggerty @AngelaHaggerty
To the confused: the big tax case outcome doesn’t mean #RFC owes no money – RFC went bust owing millions, including tax. Basic stuff folks.
For some the battle may have been won however the war ( a rather strong word and not ideally suited) has not as yet been won.
Night Terror says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 17:01
Noticeably quieter on here since Tuesday.
What’s the problem – only post when you’re winning?
======================
Winning what.
Rangers stole millions in tax, HMRC forced the club into administration, then liquidation. The FTT ruling that Rangers stole a specific amount less than HMRC claimed is neither winning nor losing. Rangers are dead, this just changes the amount they stole from the country. It’s only about £20m or so now.
The Tribunal verifying that Rangers had players with contracts they concealed from the SFA is neither winning nor losing. The SPL will now find it difficult to decide that they did not in fact field ineligible players and as such the old club may end up losing titles.
With regard the new club, this doesn’t really effect them either way. They still have the same financial problems, and will still struggle with the share sale. How much tax the previous club stole really doesn’t matter.
From KDS.For those who don’t read the redtops.Some names missing though.I’m sure some on here could add a few.
Your post got me thinking as to who’s job it would be to report financial wrongdoings to UEFA/FIFA, the name Campbell Ogilve leapt instantly to mind. I then remembered he has openly admitted to having recieved an EBT payment of £95,000 (the cost of a good night out according to the BBC Pundit Chuck Muck)……………..Why is this payment not included in the list published in the red-tops today?……..Who else may be missing from this list?
I find it almost impossible to believe there are not a few others who’s names have been ‘missed off’.
WHO GOT WHAT
Every game these players played in should be recorded as a 3-0 defeat.
Alan Hutton £364,000 . Made debut in 2002 and played 94 games, before £9million move to Spurs.
Alex McLeish £1.7million . Managed Rangers from 2001-06.
Alex Rae £569,000 . Midfielder arrived at Ibrox in 2004 and spent two years there. Played 34 games.
Andrei Kanchelskis £145,000 . Russian winger arrived from Fiorentina in 1998 for £5.5million.
Andrew Dickson £33,000 . Head of football administration since 2003. Previously financial controller at Ibrox.
Arthur Numan £510,000 . Dutch full-back arrived at Rangers from PSV Eindhoven in 1998 for £4.5million. Played 118 times.
Barry Ferguson £2.5million . Former youth player who became Rangers captain. Played at Ibrox from 1996-2003 and 2005-09.
Bert Konterman £300,000 . Dutch defender signed by Dick Advocaat for £4.5million in 2000.
Bert Van Lingen £65,000 . Assistant manager under Dick Advocaat from 1998 to 2002.
Billy Dodds £190,000 . Arrived in a £1.5million deal from Dundee United in 1999.
Bob Malcolm £125,000. Central defender started his career with Rangers in 1997. Played 88 games. Left for Derby County in 2006.
Carlos Cuellar £448,255 . Spanish centre-half arrived from Osasuna in £2.37million deal in 2007. Moved to Aston Villa in 2008.
Chris Burke £55,000 . Started career at Rangers, playing 96 games from 2002 to 2009. Left for Cardiff City.
Christian Nerlinger £1.8million . German midfielder signed from Borrusia Dortmund in 2001 and left in 2004.
Claudio Caniggia £1million . Argentinian signed from Dundee for £1million in 2001.
Craig Moore £1.1million . Australian centre-half played more than 90 games from 1994-98. Returned in 1999 and stayed until 2005.
Dado Prso £1.9million . Croatian striker was free transfer in 2004. Left for Dinamo Zagreb in 2007.
Dan Eggen £68,000 . Norwegian central defender signed in 2003 from Spanish club Alaves.
Sir David Murray £6.3million . Owned club from 1988-2011. They won 15 titles and 26 cups. Sold shares to Craig Whyte for £1.
Dick Advocaat £1.5million . Rangers manager from 1998-2002. Spent almost £74million to win five trophies, including two titles.
Douglas Odam £119,000 . Finance director for 15 years. Left in 2003 to take up a role within
Egil Ostenstad £370,000 . Norwegian forward signed from Blackburn on free transfer in 2003.
Fernando Ricksen £684,225 . Dutch right-back signed in 2000 from AZ Alkmaar for £3.75million.
Federico Nieto £24,500 . Argentine striker joined on loan deal in 2005 from Almagro. Scored once in three matches.
Gavin Rae £376,000 . Midfielder signed from Dundee in 2004 for a fee of £250,000. Moved to Cardiff in 2007.
George Adams £30,000 . Ex-player was head of youth development between 2003-05.
Graeme Souness £30,000 . Player-manager from 1986-91.
Gregory Vignal £173,000 . French defender joined on loan from Liverpool in 2004. Moved to Portsmouth in 2005.
Ian McGuinness £25,400 . Club doctor sacked after Paul Le Guen left.
Ian Murray £95,000 . Midfielder was free transfer from Hibernian in 2006. Left in 2007.
Jan Wouters £285,000 . Former Dutch midfielder joined as a coachunder Dick Advocaat, then Alex McLeish. Left in 2006.
Jean-Alain Boumsong £630,000 . French centre-half joined in 2004 on free transfer. Moved to for Newcastle for £8million.
Jerome Bonnissel £48,000 . French left-back arrived in 2003 from Bordeaux.
Jesper Christiansen £320,000 . Danish goalkeeper signed in 2000 as injury cover.
Joel Le Hir £28,275 . Paul Le Guen-appointed physiotherapist from 2006 to 2007.
John Greig £40,000 . Played for club from 1961-78. Managed Rangers from 1978 to 1983. Later became a director.
John McClelland £225,000 . Appointed a director in 2000. Chairman from 2002 to 2004. Resigned last year.
Julien Rodriguez £638,000 . French centre-half signed from Monaco in 2005 for £1million. Left for Marseille in 2007.
Kevin Muscat £1million . Australian defender joined from Wolves in 2002 on free transfer. Joined Millwall in 2003.
Kris Boyd £215,000 . Signed from Kilmarnock in 2006 for £500,000. Left in 2010.
Libor Sionko £178,000 . Czech midfielder signed from Austria Vienna in 2006. Played 18 matches before signing Copenhagen in 2007.
Lorenzo Amoruso £639,000 . Italian defender signed from Fiorentina for £4million in 1997. Moved to Blackburn Rovers for £1.4million in 2003.
Martin Bain £249,000 . Chief executive of Rangers from 2005 to 2011. Resigned after Murray sold club to Whyte.
Marvin Andrews £316,025 . Centre-half from Trinidad and Tobago joined from Livingston in 2004.
Maurice Ross £120,000 . Played 78 games for Rangers from 2000 to 2005, before moving to Sheffield Wednesday.
Michael Ball £1.4million . Left-back signed from Everton in 2001 for £6.5million. Moved to PSV Eindhoven in 2005.
Michael Mols £260,000 . Dutch striker joined Rangers under Dick Advocaat. He arrived in 1999 and spent five years at Ibrox.
Mikel Arteta £674,603 . Spanish midfielder joined in 2002 and played 50 matches, scoring 12 goals. Moved to Everton.
Nacho Novo £1.2million. Spanish striker joined in 2004 from Dundee for £450,000.
Neil McCann £500,000 . Winger joined from Hearts in 1998 for £2million.
Nuno Capucho £970,000 . Portuguese winger who arrived in 2003 for £700,000.
Olivier Bernard £224,000 . French defender arrived on a free transfer in 2005.
Paolo Vanoli £592,000 . Italian left-back joined from Bologna in 2003 and played in 28 matches.
Paul Le Guen £201,250 . French manager replaced Alex McLeish in 2006. Left in January 2007 after a string of poor results.
Pedro Mendes £1million . Portuguese midfielder joined in 2008 for £3million. Joined Vituria Guimares in 2010.
Peter Lovenkrands £902,000 . Danish winger arrived in 2000 from Akademisk Boldklub for £1.3million.
Ronald De Boer £1.2million . Dutch midfielder joined in 2000 under Advocaat.
Ronald Waterreus £510,000 . Dutch goalkeeper joined Rangers in 2004 from Manchester City.
Sasa Papac £319,000 . Bosnian left-back arrived in 2006 from Austria Vienna for £450,000.
Sotirios Kyrgiakos £532,200 . Greek centre-half signed from Panathinaikos in 2005.
Stefan Klos £2million . German international keeper signed in 1999 for £800,000. Join Bayer Leverkusen in 2007.
Stephane Wiertelak £28,275 . French fitness-physiotherapy coach joined Rangers in 2006 under Le Guen.
Steven Davis £600,000 . Northern Ireland midfielder. Left for Southampton in the summer.
Steven Smith £7500 . Defender came through youth ranks and made debut in 2004.
Steven Thompson £485,000 . Joined from Dundee United in 2003 for £200,000. Went to Cardiff City in 2006.
Tero Penttila £140,000 . Finnish defender joined in 1999 for £300,000 from Haka Valkeakoski. Left in 2002 to join HJK Helsinki.
Thomas Buffel £1.2million. Belgian midfielder joined in 2005 for £2.3million from Feyenoord.
Tore Andre Flo £1.3million . Norwegian striker joined from Chelsea in 2000 for £12million. Sold for £6.75million to Sunderland in 2002.
Yves Colleau £106,200 . Former French midfielder served as assistant to Le Guen at Rennes, Lyon and Rangers from 2006 to 2007.
Zurab Khizanishvili £405,000 . Georgian defender joined on a free transfer from Dundee in 2003. Moved to Blackburn Rovers in 2005.
Evening Times: Murray: No winners in Ibrox saga
FORMER Rangers owner Sir David Murray has said the collapse of the football club “should never have happened” …
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/murray-no-winners-in-ibrox-saga-107907n.19486794
Fresh from Twitter:
Tom English @TomEnglishSport
I’ve been reading a lot of nonsense lately about Dave King and how he’s settled his tax affairs in South Africa…
om English @TomEnglishSport
The South African Revenue Services have obtained a provisional preservation order to seize more assets, including his family home in Jo’burg
Tom English @TomEnglishSport
South African Revenue Services versus Dave King has been running for 11 years and shows no sign of coming to an end.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 19:42
One has to wonder about Tom these days, he is definitely not following the rest of the MSMs succulent spam mantra, wonder why?…
I have tried and failed to make sense of much of the tribunal finding.
From what i can gather the majority decision was highly technical and based upon a claimed adherence to Employee loans – these it appears are repayable and subject to interest. If my understanding is correct the club has the right to reclaim these and not the trust – hence the decision of the two against one. if that is the case – given the conclusion that the Trust was specifically in breach of trust – then BDO can surely pursue all of the recipients for their full capital plus interest – though RTC seemed adamant that no such liability was possible.
The adherence on testimony over documentation appears to be key here – with Poon opting for documentation over testimony – and finding many witnesses appearing unreliable.
It is utterly damning of the MSM that they chose not to publish the key extracts relating to rangers behaviours with regard to reporting these to the SFA – and the deliberate nature of withholding the side letters – concede by all – and their deliberate obfuscation and obstruction of HMRC in the course of their duty.
What is not revealed anywhere is whether any elements of the initial ruling went uncontested – again this is key and something that any respectable journo should have asked. The appeal by definition will not and cannot adjudicate on any agreed liability and therefore we are all in the dark on this. We will not know this until the second of December when the amount due in tax will be made public. A figure of around 10 – 20 million ( in other words say thirty uncontested cases with covering letters) will prove utterly damning for RFC and their supporters and this week’s triumphalism will be seen for the overblown vicious hostile attempt to bully the SPL into abandoning what is a dead cert case by manipulating and lying about the judgement. A figure only incorporating the 5 or 6 cases upon which tax was due will lead to a much more complicated verdict. Of course if Rangers choose not to co-operate or give their case then the prima facie case will be accepted at face value and title stripping and bans will apply – until the SFAS unilaterally eradicates them and promotes T’Rangers up to the SPl just because in the interim.
The absurdity of the judgement is not in question. A technical reading that a scheme is legitimate even when it is agreed that its purpose was not, that those who ran it sought to obctruct justice on the basis of a very narrow – and possibly specuious – wording of law is absurd. It may well be lawful, the Law after all is an Ass.
The deluge of righteous indignation and claims of victimisation couple with demands for retribution cannot be sustained . The reality of the amount still owed which will be i think fairly considerable,, the reality of the failure to comply with SFA and UEFA rules meticulously detailed in the findings, and the reality of TRFC still being a financial basketcase will win out in the end.
The bizarre scenario of Mr Ogilvie – uncolour coded – I think he’s Red but I am probably wrong – in some kind of final football judgement of all of this – supposedly impartially – is a disgusting indictment of Scottish society.
We cannot say “Only in Scotland” – much of the western World is run similarly with vested interests essentially dictating law to suit themselves and punish the rest of us. This is a timely reminder that capitalism defends the interests of capital and not of freedom, nor of the people, nor of democracy and nor of justice.
Any who have faith in Scottish Justice are of course, in this as in Lord hodge’s earlier convenient machinations are either employed within the system and need to believe in it to maintain their own dignity and worth or are simply deluded.
Much water to pass. next figures to look for would be the tax due – from that some of our boffins can conclude whether liability was accepted for any – and if so for how many of the EBT recipients beforehand.
I am reminded today of Politicians celebrating great budgets from their chancellors only to see the figures and reality steadily strip away the sheen. I believe that as the actual figures emerge of the uncontested cases and the amounts of tax involved then the MSM will be looking very foolish indeed when these come out.
Of course i could be wrong and it may indeed be a 95% victory. That leaves the BDO to pursue the recipients – if no appeal is lodged or the whole shebang to go to the second level tribunal for further clarification.
Still a long way to go.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 19:42
As I understand it Mr king was acquitted on the criminal charges, but nothing has changed with regard the civil matter and the tax issue.
Just catching up and was very taken with Taysiders contribution at 11.09 this morning.
He highlights how the minority judgement noticed that side letters had only been found in thoseplayers files obtained by a surprise visit by the police to Ibrox and that those supplied to HMRC through Mr. Red had no such letters though in all other respects method of payment were similar. As an intelligent and sensible person she has drawn the obvious conclusion. We are expected to accept that two highly regarded QCs with years of experience at the highest levels of Scottish law saw nothing strange or odd in this! This stirred an old memory
I hope Danish Pastry won’t mind if I make a comparison with a case in the US. If I remember correctly the dissenting opinion in the Supreme Court case over the election of Bush The Simple in Florida highlighted how the conservative members of the Court went against their previously expressed views and inclinations on federal involvement in state law to get their man into The Big White Hoose!
iceman63 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:1
From what i can gather the majority decision was highly technical and based upon a claimed adherence to Employee loans – these it appears are repayable and subject to interest. If my understanding is correct the club has the right to reclaim these and not the trust
===========================================
That is also my understanding post the tribunal ruling.
Which would leave BDO open to chasing those debtors and putting the money into the creditors pot. In essence the loans were made by the club, through the trust, rather than by the trust.
The irony would be that the people who benefited from them would end up paying it all back, and not just the tax element.
That may become clearer as time goes on and BDO identify debtors and how much they owe. If that is made public of course. In fact that would be doubly ironic, if the liquidation process identified people the tribunal sought to hide.
iceman63 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:15
Whilst debating the issues on RTC with Rangers spokesmen one aspect of their mindset that came across was how scrupulous they were in terms of defining the rules that apply to their situation.
scru•pu•lous
adj.
1. Conscientious and exact; painstaking
Interpreting the rules in such a way that nearly always benefited their agenda was a noticeable feature. They are actually, as the FTT has shown, quite good at latching on to the scrupulous interpretation to avoid the principles and morals on which such rules are founded but are betrayed by the failings of language. There whole defence was based on it.
It is the technical interpretation of the FTT that favoured them that they are celebrating and attempting to use to further their victim agenda whilst the morale argument, as the response to Graeme Speirs has shown, is something they have difficulty coming to terms with.
It is therefore puzzling and illogical that this scrupulous mind does not want the SFA/SPL rules re player registration to be applied given the outcome of the scrupulous interpretation of rules is all that appears to matter to the same mind set.
Tax rules apply to tax matters, football rules apply to football matters and there is no cross over. You cannot apply a finding under one set of rules to another, not if you are scrupulous you cannot.
Those who live by the scrupulous interpretation of rules must be bound by them.
It is another curious phenomenon how they want the best consequences of interpretation to apply but not the worst arising from the logical application of the same scrupulous examination.
There are signs of cognitive dissonance at play.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 18:17
7 1 Rate This
SDM in Evening Times says, that there will be lots of litigation, newspapers, TV and internet.
Would he dare?
………………………
Not a chance. Would be fantastic if he did though.
@night terror
We had a 159 page document written in gobbledegook to decipher – and then respond to – not been unduly quiet anyway – quite the reverse – not a one line moronic headline to decipher.
Expect the rhetoric from the MSM to mellow as the researchers in the papers tell the illiterate reporters that the victory was anything but – by the next couple of days someone in the Record or the Sun or , shamefully given its immediate response – the BBC ( it has really become dire of late – a journalistic slippage akin to that of the Scotsman whem Jospin left )
A confused silence will follow after the weekend until some reasoned analysis of the verdict emerges from some financial journos in the middle of next week. By the time the figures come out of just how much was stolen – I will go for RTC’s 19 mill ( how the hell would i know )- then the bluster will die.
I would like one of the learned gentlemen who found in RFC(IL)’s to explain something to me
If my employer pays me a sum of money for doing my job, it will be subject to PAYE & NI contributions
However if he pays me the same sum of money, in the same circumstances, by making the payment to a trust fund, then I escape PAYE and NI
The fact that the money will eventually come from the trust by way of a “loan” is in my opinion irrelevant
It is, however you look at it, money that I have worked for, money that I have earned, and without my having worked for it, it would not be in an EBT
When you think about it, how ludicrous is it, that you have to apply for a loan to access your own money, money that you have actually had to work for ?
It is even more ludicrous that I wouldn’t have to pay any Tax or NI on it
Can either of these gentlemen, or indeed anyone, please explain this
Palacio67 says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:02
4 0 Rate This
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 19:42
One has to wonder about Tom these days, he is definitely not following the rest of the MSMs succulent spam mantra, wonder why?…
————
To be honest, he’s been pretty good throughout. He’s one of the few I’d go out of my way to read. He also took Craig Whyte to task fairly early on. If he seems guarded at times it could well be that he is only too well aware of his nationality and how that may be perceived by some. He may also have become tired of being talked down to by the likes Taynor when he guests on Your Call and decided to be true to his instincts come what may. The day Traynor, Young and a few others are sent to the Donkey Sanctury then we might see younger, brighter and less biased minds reclaim the media. It’ll also give JT and CY more time to attend Airdrie and St Mirren games 🙂
iceman63.
I was unaware of the 2nd December date for the publication of the revised amount due. Should be interesting.
I’ve not read much of the report. Partly due to lack of time but also due to the fact that my brain tends to melt when presented with sentences half a page long.
I am relying on others here and elsewhere to dissect it for me.( And you are all doing a splendid job so far.)
From the little that I’ve managed I have been struck by the difference in lengths between the majority and minority reports.
In fact, not just the length but the cohesion. The minority report appears more structured in a beginning-middle-end sort of way.
The majority report seems less structured. Less ‘complete’.
Is it possible that large sections of it are not on the redacted public version?
This may also explain how Paul McC was referring to page numbers in the 200s.
Anyway, time will tell and when all the hysterical shouting from those who want to prevent any sensible discussion dies away, the facts will out.
is this odd?
This message has been generated in response to your request to monitor the
following company:
Company Name : THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB P.L.C.
Company Number: SC004276
The following form/document(s) have been filed for the above company and are
available to order from our Companies House WebCHeck service:
Document Type Form
————- —-
Change of RO AD01
……
thought this is called rfc 2012 now and why would they change the registered office?
For what it’s worth, I think Night Terror was probably just making a joke, rather than setting out a view that the proponents of financial and footballing probity were losing…
jonnyod says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 18:01
12 0 Rate This
My word the MSM seem to have given up their three wise monkeys impression and have began taking calls for all sorts of enquiries and investigations to be started .their mantra now seems to be shout as often and as loud as you can about the 2-1 verdict to avoid the readership looking too closely at the findings within the report .
Some of the peepil appearing in the rags calling for inquiries should hang their heads in shame
All I can say is be careful what you wish for.
………………………………..
These are the people who spent most of their coverage distorting all facts wherever an opportunity arose and insisting they couldn’t really discuss the case because RFC had a right to appeal, now HMRC has a right to appeal it is simply ignored except for a couple of hints that a HMRC appeal will be considered by the MSM to be nothing but a vicious, spiteful, vindictive attack on a poor innocent victimised group.
Easy to explain campsiejoe – we are mugs who pay tax – who work for less than the full value of our labour. The rich are allowed not to pay tax and to earn vast amounts more than the value of their labour. . We are there to feed their wealth. We are their slaves. and our governments are their slaves, hence the amazing tax loopholes in every Western democracy – they can’t all just be crap at framing laws – these loopholes are deliberate, and are a universal part of all capitalist systems. .
Karl Marx’ analysis of Capital was prescient and accurate, then and now – his “solutions” sadly were catastrophic!
Agrajag says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:27
Good to see others asking the same question. Did Rangers simply give away £45 odd million to the trusts with no conditions attached and the money belongs to the trusts or does it still “belong” to Rangers in that they are owed it making players etc debtors that BDO can pursue?
If they do and players use the side letters to justify not repaying does that not mean/prove the advances were never loans but wages?
There might well be unforeseen consequences of the technical decision to say the advances were loans that would ridicule the FTT findings.
torrejohnbhoy
Interesting list there
So let me get this straight
JAB played who was at Ragers for 6 months and played 18 games (16 starts and 2 as sub ) applied for an EBT loan of £635,000 and got it
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Also Pedro Mendes 2yrs at the club and got an EBT of £1m , for arguments sake just say that was wages, that would be roughly £10,000 per week ,Now what if his SFA declared wage was say £2,000 per week that would put him on £12,000 per week .At that time could we expect a £3m pound signing to come to ragers for £2,000 per week or would it be more likely he would come for £12,000 per week .I wish I knew what he was on at his club prior to signing at Ragers ,Of course the SFA would know how much his wages were at Ragers
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You say there seems to be names missing but I see on the list some players arrival year and leaving year is there but some are not ,could this be relevant
campsiejoe says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:34
Thing is Joe
If it’s a payment and tax is due then you pay that tax. A proportion of the money.
If it’s a loan then in theory you pay that all back. Not a proportion, all of it.
The trust may never have asked for it back. The club may never have asked for it back.
However if it is a debt to the club (in liquidation) then the liquidators, in the best interests of the creditors may well. Even if it takes years to recover.
However there seems to be differing opinions on who actually made the loans (according to the Tribunal ruling).
Agrajag @ 20:52
That is precisely the point
Why would money you have worked for, your own money, only be available to you by way of a loan
We all know the answer, don’t we
As far as recovering these “loans”, that is a non starter
RTC said many times that when the money was paid into the trust, RFC(IL) lost all claims on it
Kilgore Trout says:
Thursday, November 22, 2012 at 20:42
The redaction idea makes absolute sense of the “missing pages” and of some of the disjointed nature.