A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
verselijkfc says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 12:49
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Has there been a rule change that permitted M’well v Dundee last night?
I thought UEFA insisted that no top tier on Champions League nights.
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Any chance we can get it declared nul and void – We got robbed.
http://broganrogantrevinoandhogan.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/strange-things-happen-at-celtic-park BRILLIANT TEAR IN MY EYE AFTER READING THIS
nawlite
Thanks guys. Have to say both those reports sound more like the game I watched than Sky’s 16% to 84% that I quoted. I should know better, but why do we keep getting fed p*ss poor information?
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does make you wonder where the bbc and uefa get theirs though – maybe the’re all just made up, along with the attendance figures (a poster on another saw a 70,000 attendance reported in an Italian news-outlet 🙂 )
A small number of dangerous guys can be a problem and the police have to take every threat of that kind very seriously. (I didn’t mean there were only two guys like that, just an expression).
Manchester was a one-off albeit which showed we in Scotland and Rangers in particular still have a problem with a certain kind of thug who attaches themselves to a big football occassion.
By saying the above I wasn’t trying to deny or denigrate the idea that there are dangerous idiots out there but IMO it’s wrong to make too much of it as well – I mean this in the sense of making out the problem to be too big to do anything about, or so big it will take generations to fix, or so big we always have be careful what we say or do.
That’s what the powers that be and the MSM put forward as why we have to be careful not to do anything too drastic to a certain club or saying anything offensive (i.e. truthful) about a certain club or its fans.
What I’m saying is, while realising there is a cerain amount of danger, it’s far from insurmountable and only requires the media, the SFA and the government to show a little courage and integrity to face down.
Agrajag: Adelsons seem to have links to Lithuania also. Not that it means much as they are Global.
ordinaryfan says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 13:59
So because these people might employ, or know, accountants working in Scotland then ICAS are in the thick of it.
By the same logic can we assume the Law Society of Scotland and the Faculty of Advocates are also in the thick of it.
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:05
Manchester was a one-off albeit which showed we in Scotland and Rangers in particular still have a problem with a certain kind of thug who attaches themselves to a big football occassion.
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No, Rangers fans rioted and looted in Manchester. Not other Scottish football fans, Rangers fans.
Not “a certain kind of thug who attaches themselves to a big football occassion.”. Thousands of Rangers fans.
Las Vegas Sands ARE connected to Hearts also through Romanovs company/bank UAB Ukio Bankio.
Money laundering on a grand scale???
bobferris70 says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 13:35
I see the crowd last night was about five thousand short of capacity. Genuinely wondering why this was. I wouldn’t have thought segregating the fans would have lost too may seats.
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In many CL games the advertising boards are bigger and the front seats are left empty. Don’t know if this was the case last night.
The scarf display with YNWA was a hell of a spectacle!
Agrajag: I might be getting well ahead of myself on the Chartered Accountants side of things but Las Vegas Sands owner Adelson is a member, he is connected to Hearts, Sheffield Utd and RFC, D&P and RBS. and Bill Ng. Then we have Adelson, Nimmo-Smith and Hodge, Murray, BDO, D&P and RBS all members or have members at ICAS.
ordinaryfan says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:19
Las Vegas Sands ARE connected to Hearts also through Romanovs company/bank UAB Ukio Bankio.
Money laundering on a grand scale???
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I knew you were building up to this! 🙂
I don’t care what the possession stats say. The main statistic is that Celtic won 2-1, fair and square. In fact, any top team facing Barca have similar possession stats – big deal. Celtic won.
Only the doomsayers, killjoys, and the generally inadequate waffle on about possession stats, cold night in Glasgow, Barcelona not the team they were yadda yadda yadda. One big yawn quite frankly. I wish that some people would have a bit of grace and dignity and accept a fantastic result.
Dons fan by the way.
abcott: I am as lost as anyone on this issue, I will leave the joining of dots to the likes of Paul Mconville and RTC. But Las Vegas Sands are being investigated for money laundering in a couple of different cases. They are connected to nearly all the main players. Including Murray and Romanov.
Quite right Cosmichaggis;
Barcelona were the team they always are.
And remember too that Alex Song got his customary one booking (sorry, yelllow card) when 3 wouldn’t have been unjust.
liveinhop says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:04
http://broganrogantrevinoandhogan.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/strange-things-happen-at-celtic-park BRILLIANT TEAR IN MY EYE AFTER READING THIS
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More power to you, and to the author. 🙂
(Sorry but, personally, I don’t think I’ve ever read a piece of such misty-eyed, wallowing, saccharine tripe in my life.)
ordinaryfan says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:33
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I’m with you OF. It’s an interesting line of enquiry for sure.
Agree, someone may join up the dots.
bect67 says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 10:29
“It will be interesting to see if Jardine (Irvine?) claims next year that Celtic’s 126 year history is no where near that of Rangers(?) achievements in what – 141 years or 1 year?
Taking this seriously for a minute:-
1. Celtic will eventually overtake the League Cup/League hauls of the now liquidated Glasgow
Rangers (more quickly than otherwise if titles are stripped).
2. Celtic (and I feel most fans of other Scottish clubs would agree) are held in greater esteem
throughout football globally.
3. IMHO in one game alone – Lisbon 1967 – Jardine’s caustic/sour grapes comments have
already been ‘blown out of the water’.
and finally …
He can stuff his congratulations!”
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ok here’s my tuppence ha’penny………
1. Celtic have a far greater history. (I make no apology for my bias) Rangers 1872 have a very large question mark over their history and honours and how they were achieved, possibly losing as many as 9 awards.
CELTIC (established in 1887)
Scottish League Championships: 43
Scottish Cup: 35
Scottish League Cup: 14
European Cup/Champions League:
Winners: 1967 (1st ever British Club to do so) Runners-up: 1970
UEFA Cup/Europa League, Runners-up: 2003
There are a further 81 minor cups and honours including the Coronation Cup and The British League Cup
The FANS were given a special award in 2003 The Fair Play Award. NO-ONE else’ FANS has been awarded such
Rangers (formed in 1872, liquidated in 2012 and reformed as The Rangers, purchasing the history of RFC 1872)
Scottish League Championships: 54*****
Scottish Cup: 33
Scottish League Cup: 27
UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup: winners 1972
Runners up in 2008 Europa Cup – Fans rioted
2. Celtic as with many other fans of other Scottish Clubs are respected throughout the world. Rangers were often not included on that particular guest list.
3. Rangers had always chased the dream and never achieved. It could be argued that the successes in Europe by Aberdeen (European Cup 1983 winners) is far greater than that of RFC 1872
and if I may add…. Jardine is a deluded fool and a guttersnipe!
CELTIC MAKE HISTORY & LEGENDS, WE DONT BUY IT!
To EasyJambo and Allyjambotaxpayer and other Hearts Supporters who contributed on RTC and on here I wish you the very best and hopefully a swift outcome!
Remember guys like you ARE the club!
Just to put a bit of context to the 16% Celtic posession. The three Barcelona substitutes who came on were all holders of World Cup medals.
Let me start by saying well done to Celtic lastnight & a big well done to other clubs supporters for their kind words.
Now,what is it with football clubs not cutting their cloth sufficiently to deal with the financial climate we’re in?
I like my day out visiting Celtic park to see my team but there have been times when financially that wasn’t possible (children,short-time,more important bills to pay,etc) Hearts waqe bill of £4.2m is unbelievable for the club,I know they too spent beyond their means to try & keep up with rangers(IL) but if I’m able to see the big picture why can’t some owners/chairmen.
Once again the company I work for is away to pay-off 43 of the workforce from the factory floor which is 1/3 of us,now I’ve no idea if I’ll be lucky again to be kept on but if I am the best I will get is less hours along with a reduction in my wage,and while it would give me every weekend off to see my beloved Celtic reality means that I’ll have to pick & choose the games I want to see.
Football clubs rely on we the fans turning up regardless but the reality is very different,I was £32.50 for the recent game at CP against Killie & £17 for my bus,now that’s before a pint,fish supper or programme has been bought,now if I’m on reduced wages I’ll not be doing that every week.
Also if I’m unable to go to CP I’ve been seen up at Station park (just doing my bit against armaggedon) so clubs really do need to get the figures right for supporters to keep the turnstiles clicking.
Sorry for the long winded post,just dropping my thoughts in.
Good luck to Hearts & I hope you get it sorted.
Supporters Direct Scotland & Rangers?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/buy-rangers-campaign-was-launched-at-ibrox-1425119
It was Bobby Thomson ( not Bobby Russell showing my age) that Jardine cheated!
I was at the Morton game in question – remember it very well Jardine scythed down Thomson with a cynical late reckless challenge. Thomson squared up to him – there was about a yard between the players – i was right there- and Jardine held his face as if he had been punched in the face. Thomson was red carded. All hell broke loose. Rangers fans starting chucking bottles into the Morton fans- Morton fans were then removed en masse and marched around the ground by the brave Greenock Polis to watch the game from the Sinclair Street end – all crushed and herded together.
Willy Puller Jardine – rabble rouser then – rabble rouser now. Anyone who has ever given the man any credence has, I fear been duped!
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:55
3. It could be argued that the successes in Europe by Aberdeen (European Cup Winners Cup and European Super Cup 1983 winners) are far greater than those of either RFC 1872 or Celtic FC.
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Fixed that for you, TBK. 😉
🙂
exiledcelt says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 09:37
Yes Shandy – we are all so jealous!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Aye sure sandy..jealous..yeh !!
Your *rse must be jealous of your mouth, wi the amount of sh*te that it continually spouts..!
As for the “churnalist”? Craig Swan..another lickspittle trainee slug & watp merchant…
Ya pair a sad..humiliated desperate..& delusional phuds.
Just to be clear re my possession comment above. I’m as pleased as anyone that Celtic came through last night – for the club AND for the reputation of Scottish football. All I was getting at was that when Chelsea beat Barca in the CL semi last year, I was mightily annoyed and was disparaging of their tactics.Unlike Chelsea, Celtic didn’t last night set out to play anti-football/rope a dope tactics/whatever you want to call it, Barca are simply good enough to make it look that way. As said above, the only stat that matters is 2-1, but those not seeing the match may see the possession stats and think it was done the Chelsea way, rather than ‘the Celtic way’.
Fed up hearing about this possession ststistic.18%,28%,who cares.
Only stat that counts is that Celtic had 66% of the goals.
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Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:06
Supporters Direct Scotland & Rangers?
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At least something’s happening.Still no news on the Rangers Roadshow scheduled for Glasgow this week.Must be tomorrow.That’ll suit all the pension fund managers.Early finish then over to Ibrox for freebies.
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Also adding my best wishes to our Hearts Fans.Hope you pull through.I also hope that if the worst happens, the powers that be treat you with the leniency shown to a certain other(I wouldn’t bet on it,though!)
tomtomaswell says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 13:12
To those who wish to point out the possession statistics and who are old enough to remember.
In 1974 George Foreman fought Ali in what was predicted to be a one way massacre. For 7 rounds he battered and bludgeoned his way through the fight. If you read the statistics you’ll find that (in footballing terms) he had about 90% of the possession. At the end of each round Ali would hit Foreman with a quick flurry but in boxing terms it was one way traffic. In the 8th round Ali stepped up to the plate a knocked out a tiring Foreman. It was seen at the time as the most perfect tactical bout that Ali had ever fought.
Where Celtic battered and bludgeoned over the two games? Certainly, but history will show that over the two games the result was a close victory for each team. The stats are irrelevant, it’s the score that matters.
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I’ve heard the possesion comments a number of times as some sort of meaningful proof that somehow the result was not justified…
No matter how you view it….getting the ball off of the Barcalona team is the issue every team faces not just Celtic…Barcalona will pass every team to death…Chelsea had the same issue last season in the semi final…
The result is a remarkable achievement when you consider Barca provide most of the squad for the Spanish National team who are current European and World champions…possesion is irrelevent to the final score
A great result for Scottish Football and God knows Scottish football needs it..
no offense!………. but can we put to bed this myth of possession.
Regardless, to have 26% (TWENTY SIX PERCENT) of play against a club that is known for its tic-tac passing game and against possibly the greatest EVER club side full of individually world class players, yet still beat them 2-1 is an undeniably fantastic achievement
http://uk.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009533/index.html
angus1983 says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:17
“TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:55
3. It could be easily argued that the successes in Europe by Aberdeen (European Cup Winners Cup and European Super Cup 1983 winners) are far greater than those RFC 1872 and perhaps on a par with Celtic FC triumph as the only Scottish side to win the BIG ONE.
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Fixed that for you, TBK.”
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Edited that for accuracy for you Angus 😉
sorry last link was Barca home tie. This is the link…. guess what… even better
http://uk.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009541/index.html
TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT!! 28%
I imagine we would have gubbed them 3-1 or 4-1, if we had had any more of the play lol 😉
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:58
Imagine we had a full squad.
Brown, Hooper, Izzaguire and Forrest were all ruled out.
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:58
sorry last link was Barca home tie. This is the link…. guess what… even better
http://uk.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/matches/round=2000347/match=2009541/index.html
TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT!! 28%
I imagine we would have gubbed them 3-1 or 4-1, if we had had any more of the play lol
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You also have to allow for the fact that they could bring on 3 world cup winners from the bench whilst Celtic were not at full strength!
The possession argument is tired and pointless and infantile frankly!
In both games Celtic went ahead – early – therefore in both games it became incumbent upon Barca to score. They consequently had the ball virtually continuously and took risks to keep on the offensive. Their defence was ludicrously stretched at the second Celtic goal.
It is how the game works. I remember the 1980’s and jIm Maclean’s brilliant United side. They would commonly have very little possession- especially iif they had scored early,and would then often score again and then pick off the opposition at will whose game plan had been changed by the need to score. i once saw a Morton team have the ball virtually the whole game against United and create a few good chances yet loseto United, very comfortably 3-0.
The object of the game is to score. The second objective is to prevent the opponent scoring. Had Barca been ahead in either game then Celtic’s possession ratio would probably have had to have been greater – they would have been forced to take risks to try and force a goal and would probably have lost by two or three.
I have a fair amount of sympathy for Kenny Duthie’s post Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:01 with regard to cost of attending a game. It’s not so bad if you’ve bought a season ticket, once you’ve shelled out in advance you don’t think how much it’s going to be and you get to watch a couple of games for free if you go to them all.
The trouble is, the cost these days isn’t just the ticket, its the whole cost and logistics of getting to and from a game. When I were a lad… ( I know, I know!) I lived within walking distance of Pittodrie. On a Saturday I could leave the house at 2.30, watch the game till the final whistle (4.40 +/- a minute or two) and be home to watch the results sequence on TV at 5pm and then Dr Who. I now live 20 miles away so match day costs include travel, usually parking and I don’t get home until nearly 6.30 having endured Jabba on the car radio in the interim (assuming of course a 3pm Saturday ko – we won’t go into my opinion of Sky’s tinkering with match timings). Any pre- and during match refreshments plus a programme will practically double the cost of the ticket. And that’s just me. On the odd occasion my (adult) son and I manage to go to a game together these days, Dad always seems to pay, strange that.
In fact my biggest gripe with football for years has been value for money – by and large there isn’t any. But other forms of entertainment are now catching up with over- inflationary rises for ticket prices. I baulked at £400 a seat for the Stones, but even Clapton and Winwood whom I far prefer, were £75 a seat for their last shows. A couple of weeks ago The Bashar and Lady Teg went out for the evening and spent £100+ on a pre-theatre supper and tickets to a mediocre play and those were the cheapest seats in the house (not only that Lady Teg slept all the way through the play!).
There’s supposed to be a recession, the worst in living memory, as bad as the 1930s, etc. How do organisations justify such escalating seat prices for events of any sort? (Slightly off-topic rant over).
Just heard on the radio ,the rangers trust are to make a new bid to buy the club ,why would you want to buy a dead club,to put on the mantlepiece maybe.
Fraser Forster named in the England squad
Why don’t the rangers trust just start a new club? That’s what sevco did and they have managed to build a decent number of followers in a very short history.
All they would then have to buy is a stadium, there is one in the south side which, going by it’s last cost at the change of owners, would cost a couple of million at most…….needs a lot of work done to bring up to 1st/2nd division standards though…..if the new club is targeting a quick promotion.
thebasharmilesteg says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 16:20
………………………………………………….
Always been a shift worker so a season ticket doesn’t work for me.
BTW – yep dads always pay but that’s what dads do 😉
OT
Just listened to a caller on Durham and Gough on Talksport re last nights football match. He was allowed considerable time on the line and his input regarding his club, Celtic, was awsome. Any like-minded fan would have had their hearts bursting out of their chest listening to this orater. Both hosts congratulated him on his call. A pleasure to listen to ‘Frank’. This is what being a football fan is all about. Bursting with pride about a team that doesnt cheat, lie or deceive in order to gain any advantage. Again, well done Frank.
*orator*
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:54
Edited that for accuracy for you Angus
——
Aye, OK. 🙂
ordinaryfan says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 13:19
I don’t care if I sound paranoid here, the Institute of Chartered Accountants Scotland are IN THE THICK of what has been going on at RFC.
There are far too many connections to be coincidence.
======================================================
Ordinaryfan…no need for the paranoia…I can assure you that at least a score of ICAS members are up to their proverbials in this one…!
essexbeancounter says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 17:48
Not really the same as ICAS being involved though is it.
Went onto Wikipedia a few mins ago, I’ve forgotten what motivated me to do so……
“Yellow journalism, is a type of journalism that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism. By extension, the term yellow journalism is used today as a pejorative to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion.”
Should it now be known as ‘Jabba Journalism’ ?
There’s no doubt that Hearts aren’t the only top tier Scottish club with a black hole in their accounts.
There’s a consensus developing that the Murray Era forced Scottish clubs (or rather the holding companies of the clubs) to live well beyond their means to keep up, with Celtic being hours away from being the first victim of this theory if true.
I’d like to find out how well or badly Scottish clubs were run prior to SDM taking control of Rangers.
Were they in the red or black and to what extent?
How would one be able to view past accounts of these clubs?
Can any accountants on here point me in the right direction?
I’ve a feeling that the accounts of the majority of clubs would add weight to the argument that SDM’s alleged chicanery has dragged Scottish football to it’s knees, and fair play to him, we all in gave him the cash to do it.
In the Blackadder Goes Forth episode ‘Goodbyeee’, Baldrick asks Edmund to explain how the war started. I thought I’d change it a little and post a retort to Jabba’s manure. George’s reply was an unexpected surprise:
Baldrick: …… The way I see it, these days there’s a lot of clubs in debt,
right? and, ages ago, there wasn’t a lot of clubs in debt, right? So, there must
have been a moment when there not being a lot of clubs in debt went away, right?
and there being a lot of clubs in debt came along. So, what I want to know is:
How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of
affairs?
Edmund: Do you mean “How did so many clubs get into debt?”
Baldrick: Yeah.
George: The war started because of the vile *** and his villainous empire-
building.
http://tag.huggity.com/fanpic/049-20…ona/prelaunch/
liveinhop says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 19:24
I was told it would be about 21:00 tonight.
I see it is up, thanks for that.
Got to quick around here mate
I see the harbingers of doom, the MSM, have the Armageddon Express back on track again, and it will be stopping at a club near you very soon
They just can’t help themselves, and as with every Armageddon story, they drag out the Sevco myths again
You would have thought that would have learned from past experience, but not these bold headbangers
All of the Sevco in the SPL, and league re-construction nonsense will be getting dusted down and re-launched, with even more vigour, if that is possible
The Armageddon that they should be contemplating is their own, but they can’t because they think the world revolves around them, and the rest of us need them
As Dylan put it, “The times they are a’changin”
Has anybody asked the question
How much income have Hearts lost because they played Dundee instead of theClub which died and is gone forever?
I bet it isnt £1.79m or even £450k
8 November 2012 Last updated at 14:55
More Scottish football clubs ‘in distress’
This week Hearts received a winding-up order over a tax bill of almost £450,000
The finances of Scottish football clubs have worsened in the last six months, according to a survey.
Business recovery firm Begbies Traynor said six clubs in Scotland’s three top divisions were showing signs of distress at the end of October.
That is two more than when the survey was first carried out in April 2012.
The survey comes a day after SPL club Hearts warned fans the club might not survive until the end of the month after receiving a winding-up order.
Begbies Traynor said the rise in distress came at a time when most clubs should be at their strongest after the majority of their season ticket, sponsorship and television payments had been received.
Ken Pattullo, from Begbies Traynor, said: “Distress has actually risen since the peak of last year’s problems, and the problems go further than the widely reported issues at Hearts that resulted in a winding-up petition being issued this week.
“The plain fact is that if a club is in trouble at this stage of the season, it looks very bleak for the prospects of financial survival when the cash flows are really put under pressure in the spring and early summer.”
Business distress signals, as measured in the survey, included clubs facing winding up petitions and high court writs, county court judgments or “serious negative balances” on their balance sheet.
Distress symptoms
The business recovery firm said almost one in five of the 32 Scottish football clubs surveyed (19%) showed symptoms of distress, compared with an average of just 2% of UK businesses.
Mr Pattullo added: “The survey shows that the relegation of Rangers has had some impact, but lower attendances and falling revenues, and in particular reducing TV money, has given rise to the distress that is spread across the SPL and divisions one and two.”
On Wednesday, Hearts warned fans the club might not survive until the end of the month after receiving a winding-up order over a tax bill of almost £450,000.
The Edinburgh club issued a plea for “emergency backing” from supporters to avoid the prospect of administration.
It added there was a “real risk” that Hearts could play its last game on 17 November.
bobferris70 says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 13:35(Edit)
Rate This
I see the crowd last night was about five thousand short of capacity. Genuinely wondering why this was. I wouldn’t have thought segregating the fans would have lost too may seats.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
UEFA takes away a few thousand seats. Several front rows behind the goals are unoccupied for the sake of ads, and the press area is expanded quite significantly. Many folk at the front of the main stand (rear) are relocated to compensate for this. Also, technically, the stadium is owned by UEFA on a CL match-night and they reserve a significant amount of hospitality space as well.
Althetim says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 14:02(Edit)
I apologise in advance if this remark is viewed by some as sexist, but that airhead bimbo on SSN actually asked Andy Walker if last nights’ result was the best in Celtics history. Where do they get these morons? (I know WHY they get them). Fortunately Mr Walker put her straight.
——————————————————————————
To be fair, Graeme Souness did the same for Lineker, Venebles and Hoddle on Al Jazeera – and not a bimbo amongst them.
I understand that last evening was remarkable, and for that reason, I have resisted the urge to nudge the blog back on script for fear of accusations of party pooping.
Could we now put the analysis of last night’s match behind us and get back to the topic on hand – particularly the fact that Stuart Cosgrove’s blog has caused huge ripples in the shallow end of the MSM gene pool – and has stung many MSM members into heightened activity this week on Twitter, Facebook, and other blogs. The Hearts situation, regrettable as it is, is now being used as rebuttal of Stuart’s main assertion that Armageddon was pure fiction.
I still regard Richard Gordon’s ” Can’t take much more of this Armageddon” remark as a highpoint in yesterday’s media offerings.
Think this is what you were looking for earlier lads:
http://tag.huggity.com/fanpic/049-2012-celtic/app/index.php
iceman63 says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 15:10
It was Bobby Thomson ( not Bobby Russell showing my age) that Jardine cheated!
I was at the Morton game in question – remember it very well Jardine scythed down Thomson with a cynical late reckless challenge. Thomson squared up to him – there was about a yard between the players – i was right there- and Jardine held his face as if he had been punched in the face. Thomson was red carded. All hell broke loose. Rangers fans starting chucking bottles into the Morton fans- Morton fans were then removed en masse and marched around the ground by the brave Greenock Polis to watch the game from the Sinclair Street end – all crushed and herded together.
Willy Puller Jardine – rabble rouser then – rabble rouser now. Anyone who has ever given the man any credence has, I fear been duped!
***********************
The “consummate prefessional” tag I gave Shandy Garden was a wee bit tongue in cheek – sorry! I remember him playing for Hearts and Archie describing him as such as he was I think 37 year old at the time – much like David Weir their age makes them wonders – whereas folks like Danny McGrain was told he was past it and should retiire by the MSM – strange that!
My original point was – as a Jambo (according his wiki page he played for his boyhood heros in Edinburgh not in Glasgow) – (ahem!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Jardine
“In 1982, in the twilight of his career, he joined his boyhood team Hearts, where he stayed until 1988.”
….so would have thought as a Jambo, who played there for a lengthy time, was part of the Hearts revivial from the lower divisions in early/mid 80s and became assistant manager – would it not have been refreshing to hear him have some statement if he had to made one that said something along the lines of – concern, know how it feels,
But no
The now confessed True Blue (ex Jambo supporter apparently) wants to have a juvenile conversation about my dad being bigger than your dad…….
I also discovered in my research that the said person claimed he had been given threats in 1974 World Cup by a certain grroup who won’t be buying shares in Sevco……this came out in Feb 2011…………was that to add to his Bear credentials I wonder……..
http://programmes.stv.tv/the-football-years/1974/the-full-story/227952-the-full-story-the-world-cup-invincible-failures-sandy-jardine/
Man is a complete and utter moron! Along with his son!
goosygoosy says: Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 20:57
Has anybody asked the question
How much income have Hearts lost because they played Dundee instead of theClub which died and is gone forever?
I bet it isnt £1.79m or even £450k
=======================
Attendance at the last Hearts v RFC(IL) game (Apr – Sat @15:00) was 14,842
Attendance at the first Hearts v Dundee game (Sep – Sun @ 15:00) was 12,446
The difference of 2,396 is around £55,000 once VAT is taken off.
And on the subject of Sevco Shares…………
I have the email stating the following nearly a month back – no follow up yet tho – anyone else receive any more than this?
Thank you, your interest has now been registered. We will send you an email in due course with details of how and when you can apply to invest in Rangers Football Club.
Reference: 000000XXXXX
Name: Mr XXXX
Proposed Investment: £1500.00
exiledcelt says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 21:49
And on the subject of Sevco Shares…………
I have the email stating the following nearly a month back – no follow up yet tho – anyone else receive any more than this?
Thank you, your interest has now been registered. We will send you an email in due course with details of how and when you can apply to invest in Rangers Football Club.
Reference: 000000XXXXX
Name: Mr XXXX
Proposed Investment: £1500.00
======================================================
Don’t think you can invest in Rangers Football Club as they’re deid.Should read “The Rangers Football Club” methinks.
Chuckie will probably get to your application as soon as he knows how many shares the 20 pension funds interested actually want.
Donno if it’s been mentioned, but heavy tribute from Catalan TV.
http://www.esport3.cat/video/4327390 get the volume up full tilt
TSFM says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 21:27
——————————————————-
My comment was an observation on the standard of reporting on SSN. The fact that the bimbo I referred to was asking questions relating to last night’s match is largely academic. It was a stupid question.
My focus is on the quality, or rather lack of it, in the sporting media and although the MSM incurs the majority of our ire, the utter crap spouted on SSN requires highlighting also. In my humble opinion.
I thought that was the purpose of the blog – or have I missed the point?
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 21:03
Shock me, a business recovery firm compiles a survey that basically sets out to justify their existence. I read this too and my favourite bit is this:
Mr Pattullo added: “The survey shows that the relegation of Rangers has had some impact, but lower attendances and falling revenues, and in particular reducing TV money, has given rise to the distress that is spread across the SPL and divisions one and two.”
I though attendances were up slightly. Dundee Utd will certainly be worried about their fall in revenue and I’ve yet to see the figures for the new TV deal but apparently it’s less than the old one. Note the SPL and division one and two bit. Division three must be just fine, thank you very much for asking, because they have The rangers in the league. Classic. If only The Rangers hadn’t been ‘relegated’ then we could have avoided this Armageddon thing that everyone is talking about. Shame.
Flippancy aside, obviously it’s tough times for the majority of clubs out there but the timing of this survey is…. interesting.
TSFM says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 21:27
I understand that last evening was remarkable, and for that reason, I have resisted the urge to nudge the blog back on script for fear of accusations of party pooping.
Could we now put the analysis of last night’s match behind us and get back to the topic on hand – particularly the fact that Stuart Cosgrove’s blog has caused huge ripples in the shallow end of the MSM gene pool – and has stung many MSM members into heightened activity this week on Twitter, Facebook, and other blogs. The Hearts situation, regrettable as it is, is now being used as rebuttal of Stuart’s main assertion that Armageddon was pure fiction.
I still regard Richard Gordon’s ” Can’t take much more of this Armageddon” remark as a highpoint in yesterday’s media offerings.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
Couldn’t agree more.
If I was a blue supporter and came in here expecting this to be a neutral/objective place, then I’d have been swiftly disabused.
I, too, didnae want to party-poop but celebration (with occasional guilty drifts back on topic) has been OTT for what this site purports to be.
And, in January coming, when Saints march on into a Cup Final again (I was at the Scottish Cup semis in 1959 and 62) I will not be on here all the following day waxing lyrical about a wonderful one-off performance of a wee diddy team against an allegedly superior team.
This isnae the place.
Though I shall be tempted. 🙂
Evening guys, haven’t been on for a while been busy and then in Spain (Benidorm, first time in 36 yrs, more on that in a moment) for a few days with the wife and friends. Whilst in Spain I could not spend the time on this blog as it consumes your life. Last night as I headed to Parkhead to be honest I was wondering what was being said on the blog about the Hearts situation, dreadful really and I wonder if Rom is in some ways calling a bluff to stir up some action in the shares issue and of course the most pressing issue of the £450K owed to HMRC. This will not be good for the league so lets hope they can resolve this. Heard the commentator on Sky news say from Tynecastle that if “Liquidation happens that’s 137 years of history gone” but I wouldnae worry guys because you can buy it back apparently with no break in service.
Vlad in some ways is a victim of his own stupidity but again its the fans of the club that suffer. Trying to keep up with the Jone’s when one of the Jone’s were playing with a stacked deck. It will be an interesting few days and how will the SFA , the SPl and SFL react and what the feelings on here are if we have a worse case senario. Will we take the same stance we took with Rangers ?
I heard a lot the other night on SSB about the History debate and I already made comment about that which struck a chord with a few of you that this is not just a Celtic supporters thing. There was a lot from Rangers fans saying that we can’t have it both ways because they (Green & Co) were made to pay off the debt in this 5 way agreement owed to Scottish Clubs. I have to say with the greatest respect to the decent Rangers fans out there you have to recognise that morally and ethically if you want to call yourself Rangers and play in a Scottish league then it’s only right you paid that money. Think about it! would it be right that Chuckie jumps in buys the assests and gets a shoey in with no recourse ? The tax money is a different issue all-together. I do not deny that the Rangers had history and lots of it and can lay claim to it, however it is what it is HISTORY. They stiil have the stadium, and the memories that go with it, the same support a team in the same strip but the history it has is new. This team were founded in 2012 and they have a connection with a team that had lots of history. I have to acknowledge but I need not accept that to a Rangers fan, Rangers will always be Rangers but the record books should reflect the difference.
To finish on our friends on the south of the river I passed a rangers/orange (the word orange was used) pub in Benidorm. To my utter disbelief it was adorned with murials on the outside of king Billy and a picture of the last supper with all the characters I assume being those associated with the pub or the Orange Order. Lots of other stuff as well but the one that really got me laughing was the sign that said “Every Nite Orangeoike,sing- a-long in Benidorms only Sash Bash 8pm till late”. The mentality of these people is something else. I said to my mates are we going in and do you think they will have You’ll Never Walk Alone on the list of songs, ones a Thistle fan the other a Rangers man, ” not a chance was the reply, am no going in there”. I went in for a nosey, about 5 people in it and to my amazement a sort of musac version of the sash was playing, nobody seemed to be singing. You ought to have seen the look I got, it was like a sectarian club in Belfast, I just stood there and staired at it all and said “interesting” smiled and turned round headed out the door to catch up with my mates and the wifes.
I am still celebrating but it is time to return to Hearts and Whitstheirname Fc and Msm and money laundering and when is Ogilvie going to resign.
briggsbhoy – go to google and type in “Benidorm orange walk” and you will find folks holiday videos of being in Spain in July at that bar having a wonderful time. I can only pity the poor kids sitting there with their buckets and spades wondering where the beach is – and why the need to have all this nonsense in what is a hoiday………….make you wonder!
Another club brought to its knees by a meglomaiac.
Ogilvie, yes the great administrator, could be conflicted again. That will be a whole year he has been unable to do his job by the time the Hearts issue plays out.
Meanwhile it takes them three weeks to sack the national coach only he hasn’t actually been sacked.
The national team continues its slide down the rankings faster than a space shuttle on re-entry.
Regan bumbles about like an absolute fool who can’t understand questions never mind answer them.
Could some one enlighten me how bad do things actually have to get before there is a vote of no confidence in this hapless, hopeless, conflicted, corrupt shower.
Exiledcelt
I recall someone telling me they had seen an Orange Walk in Crete at the time of Chaz & Di’s wedding, she was English and was totally baffled. Just thinking have the Royal family ever knighted or bestowed an honour or even invited any of her loyal servents to one of her birthday bashes in their official position ? I mean they are her loyal servants, has HM every been in an OL for a wee cup of tea and a sandwich!
Off to You Tube now 🙂
Does anyone have any information re the FTT ruling. Should it not be out by now?
justshatered says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 22:50
Must admit Ogilivies involvement crossed my mind when I heard the news about Hearts. I wonder if the SFA will go bust?
I suppose, strictly speaking, this is off topic on here these days.
But what the heck.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/craig-whyte-in-court-of-session-next-week-for-four-days/
Somethings need to be clarified regarding Hearts and to a lesser degree perhaps – Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd’s finances.
None of the issues they are facing are to do with current RFC-less SPL. Not one penny.
The damage was all done in the chase to keep up with a financially doped league.
It is like someone pulling a hamstring trying to keep the same speed as a doped cyclist.
According to the entry in wiki on Vladimir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Romanov
Hearts, like many other Scottish Premier League clubs, ran into severe financial difficulties during the early part of the 2000s. An assessment by PWC in the autumn of 2003 found that Hearts, along with four other SPL clubs, was technically insolvent.[14] Dundee and Livingston subsequently went into administration,[15][16] while Hibs and Dunfermline both took drastic measures to balance their finances, cutting their player budgets severely[17][18] and selling assets.[19] Vladimir Romanov had shown interest in investing in Scottish football for some time because he wanted to see whether Lithuanian footballers could prosper abroad.[20] Scottish football clubs were particularly ripe for takeover due to their weak finances and corporate structures.[21] He made approaches to Dundee United,[4] Dundee[4] and Dunfermline,[4] but these were all rejected.[4] He opened negotiations with the board of directors to invest in Hearts during August 2004.[20] Romanov offered the prospect of the club staying at a redeveloped Tynecastle,[20][22] which was very attractive to Hearts supporters.[23] Board chairman George Foulkes pleaded that the shareholders should not scare Romanov away by demanding too much for their shares.[24]
So we know they were not in good health in 2000 – and by 2004, Vladmimir came in. He was in effect trying to do what Celtic’s business model is now – bring in young players, let them shone for a few years and then sell them for a profit. Problem with his model is he limited it to players from Lithuania and from his Lithuanian team in particular to make more money I assume
Where RFC were subsidised by BoS, Hearts were subsidized in effect by UBIG.
Whne BoS funds dried up due to LBOS takeover, RFC then took money from ENC and then Dave King – then eventually the tax man and the public purse to the tune of 70 million.
Hearts cannot find anything beyond the UBIG and Vladimir has no interest to put his money in – nor is a Dave King going to come down the road, nor any billionaires like Craig Whyte or Charles Green (Ahem!). The public purse wil never be able to be stretched to the extent SDM managed to stretch it – so Hearts are in effect being hampered by the sins of RFC in that Hector may well be harder to deal with this time around (one owuld hope because of being bitten by RFC – not because of any other reason!).
Where Hearts are today is nothing to do with Sevco plying its trade in SFL3.
It had everything to do with the way RFC lied its trade in SPL for the last 10 years.
As a side thought – CO – will he also exclude himself from any discussions on Hearts since the worlds greatest administrator has for the 2nd time in a year become embroiled in a 2nd club he worked at in financial difficulties – strange…….the 2 clubs he worked at in trouble….hmmmm!
Ogilvie was appointed assistant secretary of the Scottish Football League.[2] In 1978, he was hired as general secretary at Rangers F.C. and later became a director of that club. Ogilvie relinquished his executive duties at Ibrox Stadium in September 2005, following a boardroom re-shuffle.[3]
Ogilvie joined Heart of Midlothian in November 2005 to undertake similar duties under the title “Operations Director”. Ogilvie was later promoted to managing director on 14 March 2008. Oglivie held 3505 shares in Rangers FC while a senior manager at Hearts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_Ogilvie
briggsbhoy says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 22:56
0 1 Rate This
Exiledcelt
I recall someone telling me they had seen an Orange Walk in
Crete at the time of Chaz & Di’s wedding, she was English and was totally baffled. Just thinking have the Royal family ever knighted or bestowed an honour or even invited any of her loyal servents to one of her birthday bashes in their official position ? I mean they are her loyal servants, has HM every been in an OL for a wee cup of tea and a sandwich!
Off to You Tube now
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m not sure what baffles me more. The fact that people export that sectarian filth or that you would want to watch it.
The sooner these ridiculous, antagonistic, hopelessly out-of-step-with-modern-society marches are banned the better.
Are you listening Mr Salmond?
Apologies to those that don’t want religion and politics discussed on here.
Lord Wobbly – Atheist
exiledcelt @ 23:10
Of course it has nothing to do with Sevco, you know that, and I know that, even the MSM knows it
However, do you think this will stop the MSM from telling a completely different story to those who are less well informed, and take their daily news fix from these charlatans ?
Agrajag says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 18:55
essexbeancounter says:
Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 17:48
Not really the same as ICAS being involved though is it.
=====================================================================
Agrajag…my post distinctly refers to “members”…I make no reference to the Institute a a body…I have no right to do so whatsoever!
Hearts do have options -their ground is not really fit for purpose
its time to bite the bullet ,sell up,pay the debts and relocate
The land value is far greater than Ibrox and should realise around £20m
In the meantime it would be a great gesture if Hibs offered to help
them out by groundsharing in order that their neighbours survive .
Even Livingston could come to their aid temporarily
I’m sure parts of the stadium could be salvaged and incorporated
into their new home ,I know it wont be Tynecastle but they would still
be Heart of Midlothian which imo is 100 times better than becoming Heart of Sevconian.
yourhavingalaugh on Thursday, November 8, 2012 at 16:26
Just heard on the radio ,the rangers trust are to make a new bid to buy the club ,why would you want to buy a dead club,to put on the mantlepiece maybe.
Someone needs to pull the curtain back ASAP, when the TFRC fans realise after the “share issue” that they have bought into a newClub there will be “social unrest”.
(I know we know, but there are people out there who don’t read blogs and believe the “holding company” line)
SFA should tell them straight once and for all all to prevent themselves (SFA) being sued for for misleading the TRFC fans through 5-way agreement/secrecy/silence.
Should Regan come out stating UEFA regulations confirming its a newClub, then the quicker we can put all this to bed and move on.