Over the past couple of years, we have built a healthy, vibrant and influential community which recognises the need to counter the corporate propaganda spouted by the mainstream media on behalf of the football authorities.
The media have, not entirely but in the main, been hostage to the patronage of those in charge of the club/media links, and to the narrow demographic of their readership. Despite a continuing rejection of the media’s position by that readership (in terms of year on year slump in sales) there is an obstinate refusal to see what is by now inevitable – the death of the print media. The lamb metaphor in fact ironically moving to the slaughter.
The football authorities in Scotland, once the country that gave the world the beautiful game, are rigid with fear that their own world will fall apart – because they are wedded to the idea that only one football match actually matters. To that end they will do whatever it takes to ensure that it continues. They have long since dispensed with the notion that football is an interdependent industry, and incredibly, even those who are not participants in that match follow like sheep towards the abattoir.
The argument is no longer that one club cheated and got away with it. The debate that we need to have is one about what is paramount in the eyes of the clubs and the media . Is it the inegrity of sporting endeavour, or box-office?
For out part, independent sites like this have accelerated the print media’s demise, and there have been temporary successes in persuading the clubs to uphold the spirit of sport. However our role has up to now been to cast a spotlight on the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and downright lies that routinely pass for news. News that is imagined up by PR agencies and dutifully copied by the lazy pretend-journalists who betray no thought whatsoever during the process.
Despite our successes, it really is not enough. We have the means at our disposal to do more, but do more we need to change ourselves, because the authorities sure as hell aren’t gonna.
We need to provide meaningful insight into the game that removes the Old Firm prism from the light path. We need to provide news that has covered all of the angles. We need to entertain, inform and energise fans of sport and all clubs.
We need to do that from a wholly independent perspective. None of this refusing to tell the truth about club allegiances. There is no reason why intelligent men and women can’t be objective in spite of their own allegiances (although the corollary absolutely holds true). Our experience of the MSM in this country is that the lack of arms-length principles in the media has corrupted it to such an extent that they barely recognise truth and objectivity. We need to be firm on those arms-length principles.
In order to do that we have put together a plan (with enough room to manoeuvre if required) as follows;
We will rebrand and re-launch as the Independent Sports Monitor. We have acquired the domains isMonitor.co.uk and IndependentSportsMonitor.co.uk, and those will be the main urls after the re-launch, hopefully later in the summer.
The change in name reflects the reality of our current debate which is not always confined to Scotland or football. It will also give us the option in future of applying the success of our model to other sports and jurisdictions through partner sites and blogs. This should also help in our efforts to raise funds in the future. However any expansion outwith the domain of Scottish football is some time away, and will depend on the success we have with the core model.
Our mission statement will be;
- ISM will seek to build a community of sports fans whose overarching aim is the integrity of competition in the sport.
- ISM will, without favour, seek to find objective truths on the conduct and administration of sport. We will avoid building relationships with individuals or organisations which would bring us into conflict with that.
- ISM will provide a platform for the views of ALL fans, and guarantee that those views will be heard in a mutually respectful environment.
- ISM will also endeavour to inform and entertain members on a wide range of topics related to our shared love of sport.
- ISM will seek to represent the views of sports fans to sporting authorities and hold the authorities to account.
We have estimated our (modest) costs to expand our role as per recent discussions. The expanded role will take the form of a new Internet Radio Channel where we hope to provide 24/7 content by the end of the year. It will also see a greater news role where we will engage directly with clubs and authorities to seek answers to our questions directly. And we will seek to contact the best fan sites across Scotland with a view to showcasing their content.
We have identified individuals who we want to work (initially on a part time basis) towards our objectives, we have identified premises where we want to conduct our business, and we hope to move into those premises during this summer.
To finance these plans there are a couple of stages;
- Initially (as soon as possible) we need to pay accommodation and hosting costs for the first year. To do so, we hope to appeal to the community itself. Our aim is to raise around £5000 by the end of August.
- There are salary costs (around £15,000) attached to our first year plan, but these have been underwritten by Big Pink, and equipment costs (est. £3000). These will be reimbursed if the advertising campaign we recently started bears any fruit (we will not know about that for a few months).
- It will not be too discouraging if we make losses in the first couple of years, so if necessary we will seek crowd-funding to finance our plans if the resources of the community itself prove inadequate to smooth a path to break-even point.
Our first year may be a perilous hand-to-mouth existence, but I am certain the journey will be an exciting and enjoyable one. We will also need to search our community resources for contacts at clubs; players, officials, ex-players, local journalists etc. Please get in touch if you have any in at your club.
We also hope to tap into the expertise of our community for advice, comment and analysis of developments, and we will be looking for any aspiring presenters, journalists, sound and video editors, graphic designers (and lots of others) to help us find our feet. Any offers of assistance would be gratefully accepted.
We mustn’t lose sight of why we are doing this. It is because we love our sport, because we want to be able to continue to call it that, and because the disconnect we find in Scottish football, that of the conflicting interests of the fans and the money men, will never be addressed as long as the fans are hopelessly split.
The ultimate goal is to allow sport – not our individual clubs – to triumph over the greed and corporate troglodyte-ism of those people who run it. I am confident that we as a community desperately want to be able to make a difference. That is why I am confident we can achieve our aim of becoming a significant player in the game.
Remember to tune in today for the draw ‘Live’
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/9529-petrofac-training-cup-draw-live?
motor red says:
Member: (13 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 8:55 am
a question for football fan or anyone for that matter.
why did hearts fight so hard for a CVA?
motor red says:
Member: (13 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Because they wanted to remain the same Club ?
Haywire says:
Member: (37 comments)
June 28, 2015 at 4:33 pm
‘…Have you any idea when we are likely to join M’learned Friends again for another bout of tomfoolery? I have sharpened my pencils so many times that I’ve only got stubs left.’
———-
There was a post towards the end of May ( my apologies to the poster for not noting his name) which seemed to suggest that 7th of July would be the first day of a 4-day hearing.A link to the rolls-of-court thingy was provided but I wasn’t able to open it.
I will wait until Friday 4th July and have a look at the court rolls.
But if someone on the blog can confirm the date now, that would be very helpful!
( Sorry to be coming so late: haven’t had a minute to masel a’ day!)
_—————————–
I was my spot,in the BDO liquidated report, I remember as 7 July.
Out of UK and on a tablet, so cannot easily get the link.
Buddy
On euro qualifying changes, of interest to me. Also none of my other friends have drawn that to my attention.
If generating an article I would be up for helping .
Buddy
That is generalising in an an attempt to “normalise” the actions of King.
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Afternoon Barca,I think it is a reasonable generalisation given the tax avoidance industry is global and enormous,normal does not make it right.Accountants make fortunes by treading the thin line between tax mitigation,avoidance and evasion,and i have never yet met an extremely wealthy businessman who does not employ accountants to mitigate tax.
Both SDM and DK are tax cheats,no argument,but to suggest their actions were exceptional is simply preposterous.Did Fergus pay tax on his 30 million profit?
buddy_holly says:
Member: (11 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 12:57 pm
I was my spot,in the BDO liquidated report, I remember as 7 July
———————————————–
It was.
BDO Progress Report 12 June 2015
“HMRC were granted leave to appeal in the Court of Session in Scotland in respect of the UTT decision and this matter will be heard over a four day period commencing on 7 July 2015. No date has yet been set for matters referred back to the FTT.”
Not sure that many wealthy people have also faced charges of money laundering and racketeering though.
With reference to my post @ 10.03am, I mistakenly said that I attended to Thistle v Motherwell match in March.
On mature(?) reflection, the game was actually last October, in case you were all scouring the archives for the fixture.
I’m sure everyone picked up on the error!
My only implausible excuse is that I subconsciously airbrushed the weekend from my memory, due to Hamilton Accies historic win at Celtic Park the following day!
why did hearts fight so hard for a CVA?
======================================
I would imagine the negative fan reaction to the precedent set by Rangers may have been a factor.
Not sure that many wealthy people have also faced charges of money laundering and racketeering though.
=============================================================
I thought i read somewhere the EBT case against Rangers was a test case involving literally thousands of companies in the UK,and politicians have talked about nothing else but tax avoidance since the crash.
Tax evasion is ubiquitous and everpresent,sadly.
edit,let me make my position perfectly clear on EBTs,Rangers evaded tax to gain a sporting advantage and when the case is closed should be stripped of any success won by cheating.
Ludicrous claims are now the norm in the desperation to sell season tickets at Ibrox.
Most of the claims are not in fact made by journalists. They are made by someone with a connection to the individual being promoted. Whether it’s the risible claims about the guy released by Doncaster Rovers or the even more laughable claim made by a former colleague of Warburton that he guaranteed Rangers would be the best team in Scotland within 12 months.
Now i’m pretty sure many journalists are well aware that the claims are laughable. They know that the issue is keeping fans onside . Thats an editorial decision not a journalistic one. I suspect that even the most Rangers friendly journalist would rather offer a realistic assesment of what is going on . However in many cases they are not allowed to deliver the appropriate ridicule.
The problem the media have is that it is incredibly easy to very quickly prove that the PR puff pieces are nonsense. Unless of course the reader is allergic to any kind of reality about their club. The media are playing a dangerous game and I think an unintelligent one.
Better access to data and fact and alternative opinion nowadays , means that it is only those who want to be duped will continue to support the product. The better educated, those with an enquiring and cynical mind will do their own research. Which will result in the demographic of readers of the written media becoming less and less attractive to advertisers.
There are many reasons why paid for newspaper readership is in serious decline. Treating customers as idiots is akin to self harm . It also smacks of desperation from an industry at a loss to innovate and keep pace with the way former readers want to engage
However in many cases they are not allowed to deliver the appropriate ridicule.
====================================================================
I think mockery is a great weapon when it has a valid purpose,not sure what purpose it serves for any media outlet to mock any club’s attempts to sell season tickets.
Please please do not encourage him !
thank you football fan, your answer tells me all that i and many others needed to know regarding your position. a st mirren fan then. 🙄
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-belfast-telegraph-and-the-rangers-supporters-trust/#more-6537
thank you football fan, your answer tells me all that i and many others needed to know regarding your position. a st mirren fan then. 🙄
=========================================================================
I am neither a St Mirren or Rangers fan,as my nomenclature indicates,i am a football fan.
I can see both sides of the argument.
Football Fan says:
Member: (101 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 1:25 pm
why did hearts fight so hard for a CVA?
======================================
I would imagine the negative fan reaction to the precedent set by Rangers may have been a factor.
————————————————–
To be fair, Rangers did at the time fight to get a CVA in order to preserve their history and keep the club intact. It was only later on that it was discovered that the same aims could apparently be achieved via the liquidation route.
Tartanwulver says:
Member: (235 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 2:32 pm
________________________________________—
😆 😆
Phil lacks objectivity but his incubator piece was a clumsy attempt at satire not sectarianism,although he could have been a bit more specific,possibly his over generalization gave out the wrong signal.
hibs home to rangers in petrofec cup 😀
If they are going to continue buying waifs and strays then the opening game against Hibs might be the point that all the positivity spouted by the press on how good these guys are is shown to be what it probably is.
They really could have done with a home game against fodder
To be fair, Rangers did at the time fight to get a CVA in order to preserve their history and keep the club intact. It was only later on that it was discovered that the same aims could apparently be achieved via the liquidation route.
=====================================================================
Neil Patey in Feb 2012 mentioned liquidation more than likely but was not necessarily the end because the rules enable a transfer of the club from one company to another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dCJL58eu6k
4 minutes in.
It seems the get out of jail free card was always a possibility.
andygraham.66 says: June 29, 2015 at 2:53 pm
If they are going to continue buying waifs and strays then the opening game against Hibs might be the point that all the positivity spouted by the press on how good these guys are is shown to be what it probably is.
They really could have done with a home game against fodder
=================================
I can see the game being rescheduled maybe for live TV. Otherwise it will clash with a Hearts v Everton friendly at Tynecastle at the same time.
I can’t see Police Scotland being too happy at the prospect of Hibs, Rangers, Hearts and Everton fans all being around the city pubs at the same time.
If the reports Yarmy posted on the Doncaster reject are accurate I think that could have been just as humiliating. At least they could spin this as an away defeat to potentially the strongest competitor in the competition. Other excuses will include lack of time for the players to gel and the new manager/coach to have had enough influence. Have they signed a keeper who can catch yet 😉
Football Fan
Both SDM and DK are tax cheats,no argument,but to suggest their actions were exceptional is simply preposterous.Did Fergus pay tax on his 30 million profit?
____________________________
Classic deflection strategy. You didn’t answer the point I made and then you attempt to equate someone credible (Fergus) with a criminal (King) and a huge busted flush (Murray)
As has been pointed out already King was charged with Money Laundering and racketeering. He was never found not guilty of these charges, rather the trial collapsed due to the non appearance of the majority of witness’. The reason they did not appear was the subject of much speculation in Joburg, and if true was par for the course for money launderers and racketeers.
You also conveniently ignored the fact that King was handed a jail sentence for his criminal activities.
However back to Fergus. You don’t say he didn’t pay tax, you ask if he did. That suggests you don’t know.Very cute and patently transparent. You don’t know yet, that doesn’t stop you trying to cleanse King by implying Fergus could have the same approach. Quite frankly that is a shamefull comment. You have no basis whatsoever for your suggestion . It just fits nicely with your ” Oor Davie is just the same as every other businessman defence”
Re: Women’s football
=======================
Over here the Women’s World Cup in Canada is getting lots of media coverage, with all the games live, and the bars have done a brisk trade especially during the USA games.
I was in my local during a USA game, and was bemused by the rowdy crowd cheering on their team: an all female crowd as well.
It was good to see the wummin enjoying their footie ! 😉
I don’t know if there is similar coverage or interest in Scotland, but this is another area where the SFA should be making significant inroads, IMO.
What I do remember is that the highly rated Head of Women’s Football at the SFA left recently to join the SRU.
Because Neil Patey has proved to be such an expert every time he opens his mouth – he told us all that the IPO was a roaring success… If Neil Patey told me my name, I’d be checking the driving licence in my pocket to verify it.
Manager who wants to get the deadwood off his payroll
…Not only tells player to “find another club”, he actually advises the player where best to increase his pension pot !?
http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/06/29/rob-kiernan-gary-caldwell-encouraged-my-rangers-move/?
Brrrrring Brrrrring
Hello Mr Ashley……If you won’t lend us any for the season, how about a few trialists for a week or two then?
There was never any prospect whatsoever that Rangers were going to get a CVA agreed. Not with the level of debt to HMRC. There are two reason for that.
1, Because of the nature of the debt to them. This is money which the club collected either from it’s customers as VAT or from it’s employees as PAYE. So it is money which Rangers had, did not pay HMRC and simply spent. They see it as tantamount to stealing what belongs to them, to all of us in reality.
2, They vote to reject football CVAs. They see the football creditors rule (I know it doesn’t exist in Scotland) as effectively a preference to a non secured creditor. HMRC (under their old guises) gave up their own preference in about 2002 / 2003 and do not see why anyone else should get one. So a football club for example gets paid in full where they get 9p in the £.
Talk of a CVA was wrong, no matter what someone like Neil Patey may have suggested.
Barca,
It is not a deflection to decry the normalcy of tax evasion.
I think consistency is important and i don’t think it is consistent to castigate the tax affairs of a selected few and ignore the tax affairs of others.
If i recall you are not too happy about payments to tax havens in Gibraltar,unlike Fergus there is no doubt tax is being avoided.
I object to all forms of tax avoidance,and i am sure you do.
Because Neil Patey has proved to be such an expert every time he opens his mouth – he told us all that the IPO was a roaring success… If Neil Patey told me my name, I’d be checking the driving licence in my pocket to verify it.
==================================================================
I am not claiming he is an expert,i am claiming he knew about the potential of a newco transfer long before it happened,this suggests it did not come out of thin air after the CVA was rejected.
I am not saying the process of transfer was legitimately carried out,i believe the rejection by the SPL must cast serious doubts on the process.
@StevieBC I think all the England matches have been on terrestial tv although before the quarter final it was BBC3/4. Said QF was on BBC1 and tomorrows semi on BBC2 IIRC. If they beat Japan in that then I expect another shuffle of probably BBC1 schedule on Saturday. If we wanted to watch any of the other countries then without resorting to the set top thingymyjig oft mentioned in these parts then it was Eurosport which has shown most if not all matches
Talk of a CVA was wrong, no matter what someone like Neil Patey may have suggested.
======================================================================
He suggested a CVA was unlikely and liquidation was more probable,the trouble with these things is you have to complete the process and one cannot just assume rejection.
The SFA handled the whole thing in a shambolic manner,of this there is no debate.
For what it’s worth, from Hectors’ mouth.
“A small proportion of taxpayers actively seek opportunities to avoid paying tax, and promoters of avoidance schemes often market them with promises of large savings and underplay the risks. HMRC relentlessly challenges tax avoidance and has a highly-successful record of defeating avoidance schemes in the courts. Taxpayers who enter into tax avoidance schemes can face years of uncertainty and cost as HMRC takes them through the courts, and run a high risk of having to pay the tax plus interest in the end. ……
It is important that our customers know that if they choose to engage in tax avoidance we will be relentless in pursuing them. Many promoters of tax avoidance schemes promise large tax savings, and will often say their scheme is completely legal and unlikely to be challenged by us. But we will challenge tax avoidance and will take legal action against schemes whenever possible. Instead of the tax savings they hoped to achieve, people who use tax avoidance schemes run the risk of wasting money on fees for a scheme that does not work, and will have to spend time dealing with an in-depth investigation by us into their tax affairs. Taxpayers may find themselves being cross-examined before a tax tribunal and having their tax avoidance exposed to public scrutiny when the tribunal’s decision is published.
We warn people of the risks of entering into certain marketed tax avoidance schemes in our Spotlights publication on the HMRC internet site.”
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/89029/briefing-avoidance.pdf
Also above posted on RTC at the time when on 11 June 2012
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2157407/Rangers-backed-seal-CVA-deal.html
“And Neil Patey, of accountancy giants Ernst & Young, last night told Sportsmail he feels the key indicators point to the CVA proposal being carried and the club that was formed in 1872 continuing in its current form.
‘I was initially in the camp that said it was more likely than not that it (CVA) would be rejected by HMRC,’ he revealed. ‘To be honest, I’m now in the camp that thinks it’s more likely HMRC will vote it through.”
NO! read the fantastic HMRC website, or are they just kidding??
Oops they weren’t, hope you did not have any money on it Neil.
NO! read the fantastic HMRC website, or are they just kidding??
==============================================================
As i said the process must be completed first,you have to submit first before it can be rejected,where i think the SFA fell down was in not preparing the ground for the most likely outcome.
Football Fan says:
Member: (107 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 4:51 pm
And Neil Patey, of accountancy giants Ernst & Young, last night told Sportsmail he feels the key indicators point to the CVA proposal being carried and the club that was formed in 1872 continuing in its current form.
‘I was initially in the camp that said it was more likely than not that it (CVA) would be rejected by HMRC,’ he revealed. ‘To be honest, I’m now in the camp that thinks it’s more likely HMRC will vote it through.
‘I was initially in the camp that said it was more likely than not that it (CVA) would be rejected by HMRC,’ he revealed. ‘To be honest, I’m now in the camp that thinks it’s more likely HMRC will vote it through.
========================================================================
His change of mind does not alter my premise,in February he had foreknowledge of a newco transfer,this was the point i was endeavoring to make.
What would be interesting is what made him change his mind.
Football Fan says:
Member: (107 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Barca,
It is not a deflection to decry the normalcy of tax evasion.
I think consistency is important and i don’t think it is consistent to castigate the tax affairs of a selected few and ignore the tax affairs of others.
If i recall you are not too happy about payments to tax havens in Gibraltar,unlike Fergus there is no doubt tax is being avoided.
I object to all forms of tax avoidance,and i am sure you do.
———————-
Firstly I don’t object to Tax avoidance at all. Avoidance is the proper legal use of approved schemes . Emphasis on proper
Given David Murray and King have both had courts rule against them and have admitted to improper use, they are tax evaders. In Kings case criminally so.
Secondly, Fergus does not and never has fallen into that category . You undermine any point you are making with such a ludicrous assertion
Thirdly . Gibraltar ? Specifically what is your claim here, as the only significant football connection between Gibralter and Scottish football is that Dermott Desmond is or was a resident there . Now given I’ve been highly complimentary about Dermotts role at Celtic, and have a) no criticism at all of where he is resident and b) haven’t got the slightest idea about his tax planning , I have no idea where you are coming from.
Can I please appeal to you to stop responding to “Football Fan” and his ludicrous statements re Desmond Dermot. Along with his other comments he is obviously a wind up merchant and possibly a troll.
Most of his comments are ridiculous and he is just looking for a response to come back with more rubbish.
Just ignore him and he might go away.
With reference to Trisidium’s original article, it appears to me that all of the talk and discussion about the issues of sporting integrity will come to nothing for as long as tens thousands of people continue to pour millions of pounds into Scottish football.
Nothing will change until that stops.
Firstly I don’t object to Tax avoidance at all.
=====================================================================
I do and i object on moral grounds,just like you object to DK on moral grounds.
That’s you on the naughty step and probably me too because I can assure you he won’t. For the avoidance of doubt the mods, even given his provenance, cut him some slack on the basis he refrained from personal attacks. I don’t think they mentioned pure deflection, whataboutery and fantasy that are the “stock in trade” of his trolling. For those that do not know, and with apologies to the Stroller of the parish, he originally hails from Methill and claims to support East Fife, although obviously outfits playing out of Ibrox are his “big” and almost certainly primarily favoured club(s)
Football Fan says:
Member: (109 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 6:22 pm
Firstly I don’t object to Tax avoidance at all.
=====================================================================
I do and i object on moral grounds,just like you object to DK on moral grounds.
——————-
So you think it’s morally wrong to invest in an Isa, your pension an emi scheme or a employee share scheme. All government approved and all with the benefit of avoiding tax .
Yet you think Oor Dave is ok ?
I am not alone in thinking those who earn money in the UK should pay tax regardless of where they are domiciled.
DK is a tax cheat but the only objections to his Chairmanship are on moral grounds not legal.
So you think it’s morally wrong to invest in an Isa, your pension an emi scheme or a employee share scheme. All government approved and all with the benefit of avoiding tax .
==========================================================================
I do not think DK is ok,and there is a moral difference between tax benefits and tax avoidance.
Normalcy is a very unwelcome Americanism. I am under an obligation to pay tax properly owed in terms of the tax code nothing more nothing less. If the tax code is such that I can legitimately pay less then so be it. Perhaps what I do with that money will benefit the economy more than what the ruling regime achieve with it. Equating that morally with Mr King’s crimes is risible at best reprehensible might be nearer the mark- whitabootery is rarely useful.
Equating that morally with Mr King’s crimes is risible at best reprehensible might be nearer the mark
=========================================================
I believe the equation relates to DK’s moral suitability,there is no question about his legal suitability,he committed crimes and was punished,as far as i am concerned if there is no legal impediment then all other objections are based on morality.
Good Evening.
I’m feeling enthused by today’s Petrofac draw. And what a tasty fixture it has given us!
Warning: this piece prefers the curtain-raiser to the Scottish game over its sterile English equivalent!
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/petrofac-ing-facts-2/
Enjoy the rest of the evening!
I seldom post as I rarely have much insight to offer, but having followed today’s ongoing tussle between Phil and the RST I feel compelled to offer some thoughts to the TRFC support:
Some of you think the present board are the problem. Some of you think the previous board were the problem, some of you thought Green, Whyte and Murray were the problem. You were all entirely correct in these thoughts.
However….
The biggest problem IMO is the common denominator, the fans. Or more specifically the proliferation of fan splinter groups. The RST, the RSL, SoS, Union Bears, Vanguard Bears etc etc etc. 50% of the time these groups are busy slinging mud at perceived enemies, the other 50% they spend flinging mud at each other. 100% of the time they are led by clowns, to a man, without exception.
TRFC fans, until you stop allowing yourselves to be led by clowns, you are going to go absolutely nowhere good as a support. Have you ever had a fan spokesman/leader that didn’t turn out to be a blazer chasing hypocrite?
It is my belief that the piss poor calibre of your fan representation is why you are where you are. Murray saw through it, Whyte saw through it, Green saw through it and went to town on it. And now King is playing the same games.
Question is, what are the real fans going to do about it?
Football Fan
I would be interested to read the rules that allow a club to be transferred from one company to another according to Neil Patey.
Liquidation was always the way out of paying debt in full. It was never a device for debtors to dodge liabilities, which is basically what you are suggesting.
I have seen rules in UEFA that specify what constitutes a ‘club only’ set up and rules that cover a club and company relationship and the documentation required to support such a relationship, but never any that say a club can morph into a company at a whim in order to dodge debt.
I would be amazed if the financial and legal world would accept such a rule made practical sense for the the creditors dumped whilst the debtors carried on in their merry way.
Football supporters never accepted it for its a nonsense. That is it makes no sense.
It was an invention by the likes of Patey who saw the writing on the wall and did not like the message.
Tykebhoy
Interesting – so come on Football Fan if you are from Methil then let us know. As a club with the “stroller of the parish” and Bayview Gold on SFM and East Fife getting a few mentions on the last radio show (even if BP forgot who mentioned the 3 penalty misses in 1973) why not tell us where your allegiances lie. The more Fifers the merrier but if you do support Sevco or any other club then so be it.
As for tax evasion the judge in South Africa summed DCK up very well. The fact that his [and other “agreements”] on the get out payments agreed are still apparently part of an internal SARS investigation might well be why he can’t easily move money around. And I can assure you that irrespective of that someone in SARS will be looking over his shoulder to ensure he does not transgress again.
If you have been following this site from RTC days you will know that nothing is ever guaranteed so yes DCK could still get Sevco listed on ISDX, get a NOMAD, put up some money, make a sound plan, get 75% shareholder approval for a share issue and other things he has not yet done but for each of us on SFM it is only a personal opinion as to whether we think he will or not – until he does though I will take the SA judge’s comments that unless there is documentary evidence to support what is said he should not be believed. It is up to DCK to fulfill what were, after all, his EGM promises so many months ago.
Football Fan says:
Member: (112 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 6:48 pm
What Dave King pled guilty to was tax fraud, not avoidance, fraud.
Other people have avoided paying the proper tax and not been convicted of a criminal offence for doing it. In fact avoidance by it’s nature is normally open to argument. Different interpretations of the rules. The Rangers EBT case is a good example of that. It was a way to avoid paying tax, HMRC did not think it was allowed the way Rangers did it, whereas the club thought it was OK. That is still being argued in the Court.
David Murray did it with the tax Rangers owed. Craig Whyte did it with the tax Rangers owed. So far neither have to the best of my knowledge been prosecuted for fraud.
Evasion is not open to debate, it is not paying tax which you know is due, with an element of deception. That deception would often be some sort of return being made by the person or on behalf of the person. As far as I am aware that is what Dave King pled guilty to.
Liquidation was always the way out of paying debt in full. It was never a device for debtors to dodge liabilities, which is basically what you are suggesting.
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I think you have picked me up wrong,but i will say this a CVA is a way out of paying debts in full and dodging liabilities,i see little difference to the creditors,it is hardly voluntary more take it or leave it.
The rule(14.1) clearly allows a club to be transferred from company to company at the discretion of the governing body,and in strict legal terms it does not exclude a company that is insolvent,therefore there is a case for membership transfer if it meets all the conditions.
Where i feel the precedent runs into trouble is the SPL vote has to be considered part of the process and it failed.
So i think insolvent companies can transfer the club to another company if the other members agree, but they did not and it should have ended there.
p.s. I actually disagree with the SPL vote but sometimes you have to accept the outcomes of the democratic process whether one agrees with it or not.
Interesting – so come on Football Fan if you are from Methil then let us know
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I was an East Fife season ticket holder in the 70’s and played darts for the Bayview Bar.
What Dave King pled guilty to was tax fraud, not avoidance, fraud.
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I think this conversation is going off track,my point to Barca may have been poorly worded so i will clarify my position to avoid being accused of intentionally being controversial.
Barca objects to DK’s appointment on moral grounds,i believe what he did was immoral but do not object to his appointment.
My reasoning is simple,there is no legal objection,the rest is just an argument about moral relativism which is confusing the issue( my fault).
Anyway DK was a bad man and he has been given the opportunity to redeem himself and i believe in redemption.
tykebhoy says:
Member: (187 comments)
Just catching up, for a short moment there I thought I was being outed as FF! For the avoidance of doubt, as far as I know I have no connection with Football Fan.
@Bayview Gold for the avoidance of doubt I never thought you were and apologise if I gave anybody the impression you were
Football Fan
Rule 14.1 will be the ironic one with the title Prohibition of Transfer of Membership and it does indeed give the SFA the discretionary power to transfer a membership. However a membership is neither a club nor a company.
It is something separate bestowed on a club or company, it does not make the applicant for membership a club (and Sevco APPLIED for membership under the 5 way btw) a club or a company, that interpretation depends on the set up of the SFA member at the time of transfer.
If RFC enjoyed a set up where the club and the company responsible for operating the club were members of the SFA, then that arrangement will be specified in the UEFA licence applications RFC made to the SFA from 2005 to 2011 at least. There will be documented evidence under Art 45 of UEFA FFP held at the SFA to show a written contract of assignment existed between RFC the club and whoever was the operating company – MIH?
When asked how the SFA saw the issue, instead of backing up the claim by producing a copy of at least 5 written assignments, Mr Regan left it to supporters to make up their minds.
Either he was ignorant of the rules or he knew them but did not want to state what the SFA had on record.
He could at a stroke put the debate to bed by looking at the UEFA licence applications made from Ibrox from 2005. I would have thought supporters of TRFC would be inundating him with requests to produce the written assignments to back up their claim a club and separate company relationship existed before 2012.
I don’t care either way. I just want folk to have the evidence that will end the debate one way or another.
It does seem though that after 3 years in which to produce such evidence it would have appeared by now if it exists.
Interestingly Patey mentions the 3 year absence from UEFA competitions if they are liquidated.
This comes under Article 12 of UEFA FFP which requires a club or club/company to be a MEMBER of their national association for three years.
This suggests UEFA see TRFC as a new member of the SFA and that the transfer of SFA membership did not convey the continuity which is claimed of it.
What UEFA will recognise after that 3 year period has elapsed is an application for a club qualifying on sporting merit that is
solely responsible for football operations
or
a company with a written contract assignment with a member (club).
In that event RIFC presumably have such a contract with RFC and will be the UEFA licence applicant not TRFC, but that is for a future date.
If there was a club and operating company for RFC in the past as Patey claims then production of the written assignment would prove it. I think he just latched on to Art 14.1 and gave it a meaning that suited.
Football Fan says:
Member: (115 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 8:03 pm
You think a self confessed fraudster and a proven liar is fit an proper to run a Scottish football club. You are obviously entitled to your opinion.
I don’t and I think he is bad for Scottish football.
tykebhoy says:
No problem 😀 , although I did have a what have I done now moment 😳
Off topic, but a lot of TRFC fans I know ,and many more online , reckon that the cup draw was a “fix” . For once I agree . Why weren’t they given their(and their predecessor’s)customary home tie ?
tcup 2012 says:
June 28, 2015 at 10:50 pm
Haywire says:
June 28, 2015 at 4:33 pm
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Haywire
Just seen your post about a man they call elbows
All I can say to any killie fan looking in is
Just because of the style of football he played doesn’t mean he won’t be a great coach
Also doesn’t mean he will be a great coach either
Only time will tell
But you won’t know unless you give him a chance
………………………………………..
I’m sorry tcup, but ‘Elbows’s past history does not fill me with optimism.
I cannot imagine that anybody who knows anything about Scottish Fitba’ would associate that man with the game being played in the Killie way.
I’m trying furiously to avoid the Mods here, having discomfited them in the past despite my best efforts, but I would imagine that many folk on this site could come up with a number of much better potential and promising candidates for the No. 2 position at Killie than this ex-Sevco player.
Again, and in deference to the Mods, I have to tread gently here, and treat FF as, possibly, a member of the Monarchy, however, I am quite amazed at how he is getting you all to dance to his slightly off-tune melody.
Ok I am going to jump in here with both feet, on the current thread re DK, FM, DD and tax from my erstwhile fellow Fifer (not you Stroller!), in short – you are at it.
BarcaBhoy pretty much nails the thoughts I had, and we don’t always see eye-to-eye, but he is bang on.
Your poor attempt at linking Fergus McCann’s tax payments with DK is a classic “when did you stop beating your wife?” mudslinging loaded question. I have no knowledge of FM tax record – but given that he is not under any investigations or convictions AFAIK then we should take it as a given that he is whiter than whyte in that regard.
Tax avoidance is legal and prudent, everyone does it – even if you do not think you do, it is simply the task of not paying unnecessary tax. All companies are by their requirements to shareholders committed to do this as part of their fiscal responsibilities.
Tax evasion – is theft. DK was convicted of tax theft, RFC2012 committed tax theft (vat) There is no grey area here.
in retail terms
Tax avoidance = shopping around for the best deal
Tax evasion = shoplifting
Redemption : yes everyone is due another chance and those without sin etc. But the issue with DK is he has shown no great change in his behaviour or business ethics. In short his behaviour leading up to the takeover should bring charges (imho) on market manipulation.
Also this is the same person who sat on the boards of two of the fraudulently run incarnations of RFC PLC. Both of which broke tax laws. (Murray era and Whyte era) This is not my opinion it is public record.
I would not trust him to act in the best interests of RFC or their shareholders or Scottish Football in general.
He has not shown any of this so far in his return
Big Pink says:
on the late, great Malky Munro,
June 29, 2015 at 1:26 am
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He also developed his own Munro Doctrine, borrowing the title from the original by US President James Monroe. Malky’s Munro Doctrine stated that in a Celtic v now defunct Rangers FC, the form team would lose.
Not necessarily very accurate, but great entertainment, and not lacking in football knowhow either.
However a membership is neither a club nor a company.
It is something separate bestowed on a club or company, it does not make the applicant for membership a club.
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Are you saying they had the power to transfer the membership to another company but had no authority to transfer the club from one company to another?
Interesting,do you not think since a club cannot exist without a membership it is assumed the transfer relates also to the club?
I cannot see a circumstance where a membership transfer could not include the contingent club?
Brain scrambling stuff,the whole club-company-membership is bordering on metaphysics,and like Phil i am an atheist.
But the issue with DK is he has shown no great change in his behaviour or business ethics. In short his behaviour leading up to the takeover should bring charges (imho) on market manipulation.
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As far as i am aware he has broken no laws since his conviction,and his behaviour these last few years should be measured against the behaviour of previous boards under the control of mr morality himself,MA.
It takes two to tango.
I see little moral distinction between a non-dom not paying UK tax on UK profits and someone evading tax in a foreign land,although i accept there is a legal difference.
legally DK is allowed to be a director in the UK and legally nom-doms are allowed to be directors.
Football Fan says:
June 29, 2015 at 9:03 pm
Not complicated at all, a membership is not a club, clubs can exist without SFA membership – they do need one to take part in SFA sanctioned play. Just as a library card can be assigned to a local resident, it does not make you a local resident. The transfer of one club’s membership to another club was a short cut to SFA membership. No club was transferred. If so (and if such a thing could have been done) then where is the paper trail? I am sure Green would have had that framed and hanging above that bicycle.
If the clubs didn’t change then no transfer of membership would have been required it would simply have continued. therefore: change of club occured.
“Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt
Bravo Auldheid! I particularly liked this bit:
Auldheid says:
“If RFC enjoyed a set up where the club and the company responsible for operating the club were members of the SFA, then that arrangement will be specified in the UEFA licence applications RFC made to the SFA from 2005 to 2011 at least. There will be documented evidence under Art 45 of UEFA FFP held at the SFA to show a written contract of assignment existed between RFC the club and whoever was the operating company – MIH?”
The rebuttal should be…interesting. 🙂
Football Fan says:
Member: (117 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 9:03 pm
Interesting,do you not think since a club cannot exist without a membership it is assumed the transfer relates also to the club?
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Do you have any basis whatsoever for saying that a club cannot exist without a (SFA) membership?
clubs can exist without SFA membership – they do need one to take part in SFA sanctioned play
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Since the debate concerns SFA rules and the SFA rules only apply to member clubs i am not getting your drift.
TheClumpany says:
Member: (90 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 7:03 pm
Good Evening.
I’m feeling enthused by today’s Petrofac draw. And what a tasty fixture it has given us!
Warning: this piece prefers the curtain-raiser to the Scottish game over its sterile English equivalent!
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/petrofac-ing-facts-2
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THANKS FOR THAT.
Reading back the last few hours i almost forgot about the draw.
Classic deflection strategy,the last few hours 🙂
Football Fan says:
Member: (117 comments)
June 29, 2015 at 9:20 pm
As far as i am aware he has broken no laws since his conviction …
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That is one of the best things I have ever read.
So as far as you are aware Dave King has not broken the law in under two years, when he admitted to over 40 counts of tax fraud involving tens of millions of pounds.
You present a strong case with regard his “fit and proper” status. Presumably the Scottish football authorities used similar thinking.