Over the past couple of years, we have built a healthy, vibrant and influential community which recognises the need to counter the corporate propaganda spouted by the mainstream media on behalf of the football authorities.
The media have, not entirely but in the main, been hostage to the patronage of those in charge of the club/media links, and to the narrow demographic of their readership. Despite a continuing rejection of the media’s position by that readership (in terms of year on year slump in sales) there is an obstinate refusal to see what is by now inevitable – the death of the print media. The lamb metaphor in fact ironically moving to the slaughter.
The football authorities in Scotland, once the country that gave the world the beautiful game, are rigid with fear that their own world will fall apart – because they are wedded to the idea that only one football match actually matters. To that end they will do whatever it takes to ensure that it continues. They have long since dispensed with the notion that football is an interdependent industry, and incredibly, even those who are not participants in that match follow like sheep towards the abattoir.
The argument is no longer that one club cheated and got away with it. The debate that we need to have is one about what is paramount in the eyes of the clubs and the media . Is it the inegrity of sporting endeavour, or box-office?
For out part, independent sites like this have accelerated the print media’s demise, and there have been temporary successes in persuading the clubs to uphold the spirit of sport. However our role has up to now been to cast a spotlight on the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and downright lies that routinely pass for news. News that is imagined up by PR agencies and dutifully copied by the lazy pretend-journalists who betray no thought whatsoever during the process.
Despite our successes, it really is not enough. We have the means at our disposal to do more, but do more we need to change ourselves, because the authorities sure as hell aren’t gonna.
We need to provide meaningful insight into the game that removes the Old Firm prism from the light path. We need to provide news that has covered all of the angles. We need to entertain, inform and energise fans of sport and all clubs.
We need to do that from a wholly independent perspective. None of this refusing to tell the truth about club allegiances. There is no reason why intelligent men and women can’t be objective in spite of their own allegiances (although the corollary absolutely holds true). Our experience of the MSM in this country is that the lack of arms-length principles in the media has corrupted it to such an extent that they barely recognise truth and objectivity. We need to be firm on those arms-length principles.
In order to do that we have put together a plan (with enough room to manoeuvre if required) as follows;
We will rebrand and re-launch as the Independent Sports Monitor. We have acquired the domains isMonitor.co.uk and IndependentSportsMonitor.co.uk, and those will be the main urls after the re-launch, hopefully later in the summer.
The change in name reflects the reality of our current debate which is not always confined to Scotland or football. It will also give us the option in future of applying the success of our model to other sports and jurisdictions through partner sites and blogs. This should also help in our efforts to raise funds in the future. However any expansion outwith the domain of Scottish football is some time away, and will depend on the success we have with the core model.
Our mission statement will be;
- ISM will seek to build a community of sports fans whose overarching aim is the integrity of competition in the sport.
- ISM will, without favour, seek to find objective truths on the conduct and administration of sport. We will avoid building relationships with individuals or organisations which would bring us into conflict with that.
- ISM will provide a platform for the views of ALL fans, and guarantee that those views will be heard in a mutually respectful environment.
- ISM will also endeavour to inform and entertain members on a wide range of topics related to our shared love of sport.
- ISM will seek to represent the views of sports fans to sporting authorities and hold the authorities to account.
We have estimated our (modest) costs to expand our role as per recent discussions. The expanded role will take the form of a new Internet Radio Channel where we hope to provide 24/7 content by the end of the year. It will also see a greater news role where we will engage directly with clubs and authorities to seek answers to our questions directly. And we will seek to contact the best fan sites across Scotland with a view to showcasing their content.
We have identified individuals who we want to work (initially on a part time basis) towards our objectives, we have identified premises where we want to conduct our business, and we hope to move into those premises during this summer.
To finance these plans there are a couple of stages;
- Initially (as soon as possible) we need to pay accommodation and hosting costs for the first year. To do so, we hope to appeal to the community itself. Our aim is to raise around £5000 by the end of August.
- There are salary costs (around £15,000) attached to our first year plan, but these have been underwritten by Big Pink, and equipment costs (est. £3000). These will be reimbursed if the advertising campaign we recently started bears any fruit (we will not know about that for a few months).
- It will not be too discouraging if we make losses in the first couple of years, so if necessary we will seek crowd-funding to finance our plans if the resources of the community itself prove inadequate to smooth a path to break-even point.
Our first year may be a perilous hand-to-mouth existence, but I am certain the journey will be an exciting and enjoyable one. We will also need to search our community resources for contacts at clubs; players, officials, ex-players, local journalists etc. Please get in touch if you have any in at your club.
We also hope to tap into the expertise of our community for advice, comment and analysis of developments, and we will be looking for any aspiring presenters, journalists, sound and video editors, graphic designers (and lots of others) to help us find our feet. Any offers of assistance would be gratefully accepted.
We mustn’t lose sight of why we are doing this. It is because we love our sport, because we want to be able to continue to call it that, and because the disconnect we find in Scottish football, that of the conflicting interests of the fans and the money men, will never be addressed as long as the fans are hopelessly split.
The ultimate goal is to allow sport – not our individual clubs – to triumph over the greed and corporate troglodyte-ism of those people who run it. I am confident that we as a community desperately want to be able to make a difference. That is why I am confident we can achieve our aim of becoming a significant player in the game.
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (488 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 10:04 pm
——————
Thanks
G Spiers has tweeted that he has taken a private bet with colleagues that TRFC will win the Prem by 2020
I assume the price is evens in a private bet.
At this point in time I hope his “colleagues” we’re able to stake the very maximum he was prepared to accept because that’s solid gold value
Can I just say that I don’t think Charles Green is a mug . He is an astute business man and knew exactly what he was buying, and that was the assets of the club being liquidated . ‘Twas after that he was got at by the Establishment ( football and societal, including IMO the Scottish Government)to agree to front the “same club” myth. He then realised how much he and his amigos could plunder with this support. Changes his stance from “history gone” to history bought” Proceeds to set up parasitical contracts for his financial backers that will hobble any forward progress for the new entity , and all with the blessing of them and such as them . It honestly looks to me like a religious sect – a true believer will give what is asked of them, usually all their money , and act in defence of the sect against haters .
It’s only meant to be a game of football, where football teams compete by playing football, not a system skewed in favour of favoured Establishment teams (Real Madrid, Steaua Bucharest , Dynamo Moscow et al). Most people accept that Rangers died . Rangers supporters did not and have to be accommodated . I think that their choice is between paying the parasites and living in the past , and starting a new club and continuing their traditions . Better to die on your feet than live forever on your knees, or words to that effect .Yes, alcohol involved (again).
PS I’ll still be expected to pay for her season ticket should they pass muster against the Cabbage .
andygraham.66 says:
Member: (278 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 11:53 pm
G Spiers has tweeted that he has taken a private bet with colleagues that TRFC will win the Prem by 2020
I assume the price is evens in a private bet.
At this point in time I hope his “colleagues” we’re able to stake the very maximum he was prepared to accept because that’s solid gold value
==========================================
I read G. Spiers tweet. I love the bit about ‘doubting’ colleagues. For all the admirable head above parapet stuff he has said over the years, the old ‘look, this is the Rangers’ bit is still there. He is entitled to his view of course, but it hacks me off when such views are licence fee funded, which they often are (I know that’s not the case here). If such views MUST be on the BBC, then they have a duty to provide balance. They have failed miserably on that score in my view.
UTH
I can see where GS is coming from,he realises that if no other team wins the premier apart from Celtic it will be another nine in a row by that time,sometimes you need to view a gamble like a prayer Graham,if I was you I would be praying/betting I would still be in a job by that time.
Good Morning.
Here’s a little piece about the Scottish sports media and its continuing unwillingness to ask any meaningful questions of Sevco.
It looks and *is* more and more ridiculous with each passing day.
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/07/11/the-medias-sunday-dilemma/
Enjoy the rest of the day!
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (488 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 10:31 pm
….However the difference is Coventry were allowed to keep their share in the ,string> Football league unlike RFC who were not. The SFA Full Membership was transferred but as we all know the SPL clubs did not agree to transfer of RFC’s SPL share…
—————
Perhaps that Coventry scenario will offer the SFA/SPFL an escape route for TRFC if the warchest doesn’t arrive or if it all implodes?
By the way @auldie, I checked the embedded links in the doc on google drive and all worked 😉
Don’t know if it’s because of the date and the bizarre ‘cultural celebrations’ going on but some folks have been posting (on twitter) small excerpts from Charles Green’s Q&A during his visits to meet WATP Inc. in NI. In hindsight they really are hilarious. ‘What school did you go to?’ ‘Will you be bringing out an orange kit’ ‘Have you considered changing your surname?’ … while it all ended with Charles promising to stay for 15 years and that the ‘club’ would be worth £500m in 5 years.
Hook, line and sinker.
The rangerssupportersroyal blog appears to have been closed and historical postings removed.
Has someone called in the lawyers over the John James postings on the esteemed chairman?
Or were there threats of the more traditional nature?
First time I’ve read an interview with the new SFA heid yin. So used to the pres being in an undeground bunker and a cardboard cutout appearing at warm-ball events 😛
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/sfa-president-alan-mcrae-details-his-plan-to-bring-sir-alex-ferguson-on-board-at-hamp.131711144
PS @ulyanova, they reported that they’d been hacked last week and inferred that there were ‘threats’. Same old same old.
motor red says:
Member: (20 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 10:50 am
theredpill says:
Member: (29 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 10:12 am
in an interview, federer said that it was probably his best grandslam game to date.
still, who would have thought 10 years ago that scotland would have a double grandslam winner ,not me. andy, without a shadow of doubt is one of scotlands all time greats .
=====================================
Morning all.
Sorry to br pedantic but this is a bugbear of mine.
A “Grand Slam” is winning all four major tennis tournaments.Andy Murray,fine player that he is,has not,at this time won a Grand Slam but two parts thereoff.
In the past,to be a Grand Slam winner,you had to win the 4 titles in the same year.Then it got dumbed down to winning all 4 at any time.
Now all you have to do is win one and you’re called a Grand slam winner.
This is so wrong but it helps keep tennis in the news.not quite as bad as nearly every bout in WWF being a title fight but getting there.
Dumbing down the achievement is unfair on the true winners.
In 1969,the great Rod Laver became the only man to win a Grand Slam twice.
By the original definition,I don’t think anyone has achieved this feat.I may be wrong but i don’t think anyone has,in the male game anyway,won a grand slam under any definition.plenty of titles,yes but no “Grand Slam”.
Is anyone else getting really irritating in comment ads?Your eye gets draws to the capitalised underlined words, which I suppose is the point, but, for me at least, it interrupts the reading flow.
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (488 comments)
July 11, 2015 at 10:31 pm
Not much I’d disagree with in that post. A good narrative of the Coventry situation can be found here… http://www.ccfc.co.uk/documents/otium-signed-accounts144-2316099.pdf. (The “football club”, as most here would call it, is now actually Otium Entertainment Group Limited)
You’re right of course that the Rangers situaton was exacerbated by the EBTs/side-letters issue, that rivals fans wouldn’t hesitate to seizing upon as evidence of “cheating”. The results of the Tax Tribunals and the decisions of Lord Nimmo Smith & his two Queen’s Counsel have shown that accusation to be, at the very least, arguable. But given the competitive nature of sport, and football rivalries in particular, the moment our fate was subject to reliance on the “good will” of others, we were cooked!
The insolvency + the “cheating” scandal was a perfect storm that, frankly, could have turned out worse for us than it did.
I put it down to a lack of information about/past experience of the “transfer of membership” process, and a general over-dosing on the “RIP Rangers” narrative, that the folk behind “no to newco” didn’t mobilise sufficiently to prevent the 5WA signing off on the continuation (however tenuous/mythical you wish to describe it) of “Rangers FC”.
Oh bother, I seem to have picked up a piece of malware called Browser Guardian. Will doubtlessly spend next several hours getting rid of the fecking thing
The trouble for burghger(@10.46) et al is that he has to IGNORE the Dos Schemes to make his ‘ points’……
BTW your club is called The Rangers FC….. but hey whats in a name after all Airdrie Utd got to be Airdrieonians eventually………..
burghGer says:
Member: (39 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 10:46 am
If you are going to use LNS to support your position, I’m afraid you can’t be selective about it. Second only to match fixing was what the panel said.
I am quite happy for Rangers mark II or, marks III IV or whatever, to claim the history of “Rangers”, but, they have to take all of it, no cherry picking!
Graham Spiers may prove to be correct. A new order may well be in place by 2020 in which Celtic will be in a pan-European elite league structure, leaving other clubs to fight for the prizes in Scotland.
The current upheaval in world football is hardly likely to allow the status quo to continue.
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) on July 12, 2015 at 10:40 am
———-
Probably just down to the lazy language used these days. Wimbledon is a ‘Grand Slam’ event according to the ATP and the winner gets a handy 2000 ATP ranking points. The winner holds a Grand Slam title. ‘The Grand Slam’ is as you say winning all 4 in the same calendar year. That’s what Laver has — The Grand Slam x 2! Serena Williams has a chance of ‘The Grand Slam’ on the women’s side this year. Just the US Open to go!
A ‘Career Grand Slam’ is still a huge achievement these days. It hard enough to win one on any surface but to win all four in your career is still a bit unique. Not that many have achieved it. Agassi did, Sampras didn’t, Lendl didn’t, Becker didn’t, Edberg didn’t, McEnroe didn’t, Conners didn’t, Borg didn’t. It is an outstanding achievement, even Djokovic and Nadal are still striving to complete the quartet. Takes a very special player to be consistently competitive on all surfaces. Oor ain Andy actually has a fair shot at a Career Grand Slam. That would put him in quite unique company.
Only after the original team completed the liquidation process though 🙂
That wasn’t LNS. That was the Lord Carloway tribunal
BurghGer
As has been pointed out the DOS ebts that are the basis of the wee tax case appear to have been airbrushed from your consciousness.
Or perhaps the lack of focus by smsm on the fraudulent nature of that particular type of ebt with side letters, that somehow escaped the attention of LNS, is at fault.
There is no doubt because there is hard evidence of it that cheating to the extent of fraud took place and no amount of BTC whitewashing is going to cover that up.
It’s not the concealment of side letters in player registration that is the main cause of the cheating charge (and that was cheating) it has been the attempts at covering up that cheating by further concealment of evidence from investigators that keeps the cheat fire burning.
You can bring yourself up to speed by reading previous blogs with supporting evidence at the archive link I posted earlier.
Defending the indefensible…..
I have posted on here before that i don’t get involved in New Club / Old Club . It’s a circular debate in my view. Emotionally the same club , technically probably not. However overall I want a Rangers to compete against, one that gets back on merit. Not one that gets anywhere based on it’s past history of rule breaking , cheating , tax dodging and financial irresponsibility.
Which takes me to the main issue for me.
“The” Rangers were forced to apply for a place in the bottom tier due to the financially iresponsible policies of David Murray. So in that sense the club has paid a price for Murray’s ego and bombast. That’s fair.
What though has not been either properly addressed in the case of the club and not at all in the case of the cheater in chief , is the behaviour engaged in to deliberately cheat every other club in Scotland. When Rangers fans claim its the same club, I don’t care to argue. When they asd in that they didn’t cheat, then I can’t take them seriously. That indicates all the signs of someone who refuses to concede any wrongdoing, someone who is incapable of acknowledging the very serious flawed behaviour of Murray and Rangers since 1998.
There is no defence. None whatsoever. The case of cheating is open and shut. Deliberate years long deception and lies. Refusal to comply with the rule that all aspects of a contract and all payments for all players must be disclosed to the SFA and SPL.
Murray’s Rangers refused to comply and lied when asked . Lets not mince our words here. In sporting terms David Murray is a low life cheat and liar . He disgraced Rangers and Scottish football. He should have been banned Sine Die long before now , and it is shameful that the SFA have , due to craven cowardice and cronyism, not even instigated an investigation into Murray.
The subsequent total failure of his business with hundreds of £Millions lost to UK banks and the UK taxpayer , combined with the shameful underfunding of his employees pension fund at the same time as he helped himself to £Millions in dodgy tax schemes and bonus’ based on utterly ludicrous valuations, shows the measure of the man.
What the SFA fail to appreciate is that if you do not take action against a cheat like Murray , then there is an inevitability that others of his ilk will follow in his footsteps, as is happening right now with King.
So when a Rangers supporter says on here, as many do privately, that Murray was a disgrace who shamed their club and needs to pay the consequences of his cheating, then they have my ear and my sympathy . When they attempt to defend the wholesale cheating by ignoring the substance of what Murray did, then I have no sympathy for any position they adopt on any subject. Quite simply for those individuals , they have no credibility. For clarity i recognise Ryan has condemned Murray’s behaviour , although sadly he is a lone voice in doing so amongst the Rangers community on here.
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (489 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 1:46 pm
“Fraudulent nature”… “Extent of fraud”…
Last time I checked, fraud was a criminal offence. Where are the criminal charges? There are none. Have you made a complaint to the police? I suspect not.
My guess is you’re using sloppy language, like your repeated use of “illegal” in place of the non-misleading “irregular” to describe EBT arrangements that failed to fulfil their function as tax avoidance, and incurred a liability.
Let me be clear. I’ve no doubt that failing to supply correct documentation on request, as identified by Lord Nimmo Smith, is one of the myriad of failings that can be laid at the feet of directors and staff at Rangers who betrayed the responsibility entrusted in them. And for that, I’d be as delighted as you to see the like of David Murray brought to some form of justice.
But “fraud”? Criminality? Really?
ps.
Barcabhoy says:
Member: (190 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 2:06 pm
Defending the indefensible…..
… For clarity i recognise Ryan has condemned Murray’s behaviour , although sadly he is a lone voice in doing so amongst the Rangers community on here.
I’ve condemned Murray numerous times. But directors’ gross mismanagement, a reckless tax avoidance scheme, even breaking of administrative rules regarding disclosure of side-letters… these are crimes perpetrated in the boardroom.
They can be conceded without accepting any besmirchment of the sporting endeavours of winning players and coaches that a blanket accusation of “you cheated” is no doubt intended to achieve.
When the outcome of deception and rule breaking is financial reward , via direct entry to the Champions League, then fraudulent behaviour is hardly inapproriate comment.
Comments of cheating are clearly aimed at Murray. I have never seen a comment that players were cheats. Cheating though is exaxtly what Rangers engaged in thanks to the behaviour of its owner . Attempting to deflect from that is pathetic.
In simple terms, Rangers cheated because Murray cheated. He tainted the achievements of players , as well as cheating every other club in Scotland. It is irrelevant that the players did not cheat. The club did and Murray did and that has never been properly punished
burghGer says:
Member: (40 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 2:07 pm
I think Barcabhoy may mean illegal in the same way that others refer to an illegal transfer embargo . A consequence of deliberately breaking the rues of competition wrt the registration of the players’ remuneration is that they can be perceived as ringers-the guys who should be there should be one thing, these guys were other . I’m not one for title stripping(we wouldn’t have won any anyway) but think a wee asterisk coupled with an explanation of the circumstances of the deliberate rule breaking and deliberate concealment of same would be in order . You do like your wee stars !
For all the years Rangers deliberately witheld the sideletters and therefore obtained a pecuniary advantage by deception I was cheated and I should get my ****ing money back for every match I attended.
BurghGer /Bryce
Since you are fairly new here I’ll excuse your ignorance of my approach which is to be able to back up what I say and be careful in general terms of the language I use.
In that sense the term “fraudulent” was used by HMRC in documents not given to SPL lawyers but because negligence was sufficient to pursue payment out of the normal time frame they did not pursue the fraud route.
False statements that result in access to money that could have gone elsewhere are also fraud.
Not irregular is the term LNS used to describe the BTC ebts ie within the rules.
The wee tax ebts were not within the rules so we’re irregular and illegal, that is not used as the Trust tax laws intended, as used by RFC.
The advice to RFC by their QC was don’t try to fight this case because you lied to HMRC about side letters in 2005 (presumably because by 2005 there were many more that RFC did not want to become public knowledge lest a stop be put to the arrangement that allowed them to pay players more than their rivals).
Oh and why no charges? Cover up – in which RFC played a part- but the game isn’t over.
TSFM
Please accept that I am completely computer illiterate, but I will try to explain.
Re your comment regarding income from advertisers.
Basically I don’t see any adverts!
I receive an e mail every time someone posts a comment, with no links to anything else. I am basically never on the main site.
Possibly others do the same.
Hope this comment helps explain why there might be fewer clicks on the advertisers.
Or am I being stupid?
BurghGer
OT but are you trying the route that is still being asked to create debate,did Neil Armstrong and his team actually land on the Moon,there is more to debate there .
billyj1 says:
Member: (23 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 3:14 pm
Billy
Could be that many people are doing what you do, but that doesn’t explain why the click rate is so low per thousand visitors to the site (of which you would not be one if only get email updates).
Probably more to do with people using ad blockers. Those people are included in the site stats but never get to see the ads – so they can’t ever click on them 🙁
I really don’t know why some Rangers fans from time to time poke a stick at the blog about either the behaviour of Rangers FC in the last couple of decades, or the OCNC debate.
More than anything else it gives guys like Auldheid and Barcabhoy and Easy and Ally Jambos the opportunity to provide the clarity and focus that sometimes gets lost over long periods of little discussion on the matter.
Having said that, please remember that even trolls are entitled to a respectful hearing on the discussion thread. Counter argument – not insult or derision – is the best weapon against untruth and misconception. And of course the mods will end the trolling eventually if it becomes overbearing.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1297 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 10:22 am
‘…So used to the pres being in an undeground bunker and a cardboard cutout appearing at warm-ball events ?’
________
I’ve nothing against Alex Ferguson, and quite a lot to say in favour of him, beyond his football managerial successes.
However, I feel the word ‘cronyism’ swimming into my mind at what our new SFA president has to say.
It simply doesn’t do for any organisation to think of the past.
Ferguson’s era is broadly over, whether as someone who had an interest in the dead RFC(IL) or as a man currently in place as a top flight manager.
By all means, let Mccrae continue to tap in to Feguson’s experience, but privately, and over the billiard table.
To think of giving him some kind of official SFA function is as backward a step as any of the previous gangs of SFA blazers might have taken.
Not good enough, and McCrae will have to dismiss such a thought, or his Presidency will run the risk of being seen as the same old, same old.
In my view, he should be bending all his efforts to restore some level of trust in the Governance of Football, rather than try to piggy-back on Ferguson’s undoubted, but now historic, reputation in an attempt to bolster his standing in certain sections.
Guys who haven’t posted for a while I would like to see contribute more;
My Lord Wobbly
pau1mart1n
Slimshady
stevensanph
thepinkpanther
zilch
There are some people from RTC who never really TUPEd over here either.
Any you are missing?
Barcabhoy says:
Member: (191 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 2:42 pm
When the outcome of deception and rule breaking is financial reward , via direct entry to the Champions League, then fraudulent behaviour is hardly inapproriate comment.
Comments of cheating are clearly aimed at Murray. I have never seen a comment that players were cheats. Cheating though is exactly what Rangers engaged in thanks to the behaviour of its owner . Attempting to deflect from that is pathetic.
In simple terms, Rangers cheated because Murray cheated. He tainted the achievements of players , as well as cheating every other club in Scotland. It is irrelevant that the players did not cheat. The club did and Murray did and that has never been properly punished
==============================
The fact is that for ebts to work within football rules the full contract surrounding them clearly had to be registered with the SFA. It was the incomplete registration that allowed the BTC ebts to be used and to be continued to use after HMRC enquired about the existence of side letters in 2005.
A truthful answer then would have alerted the SPL and SFA that registrations were incomplete and stopped the registration rule breaking and so the playing of ineligible players at that point ((c)Bryson), if not the actual ongoing use of ebts.
The purpose of those ebts in football terms was clearly articulated by Sir David Murray himself in his FTT testimony.
The linkage to the sporting advantage they offered is clear there and it is a great pity that this was not presented to Lord Nimmo Smith to counter his ill informed no sporting advantage decision.
From FTT
Q. I’m just going to ask you a few questions, Sir David.
18 When I ask them, could you direct the answers to the
19 Tribunal.
20 A. Certainly.
21 Q. Because they want to hear what you’re going to say. If
22 we can go to the remuneration trust.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And its operation. Would you describe it or would you
25 not as a tax avoidance scheme?
1 A. No, not at all. I think it was a method of us
2 acquiring, especially football wise, better players in a
3 more cost effective manner than we would be able do so.
4 In the football world, we’re in a very competitive game
5 and you’re competing with players and countries all
6 around the world. And we were very ambitious at that
7 time. And it was seen as a correct and proper way for
8 us to proceed.
9 Q. In relation to Group employees, other than footballers,
10 would you consider that the trust has been a success or
11 not, in incentivising those persons?
12 A. If you want to retain good people, good people need to
13 be incentivised. Although business has been very
14 difficult recently, I’ve got a great team of people
15 around me. We’ve gone through a difficult time. We got
16 hit with our bank hitting troubles, the property market
17 collapsing, as I said in my statement. The price of
18 metal collapsed. So up until such times it was a good
19 way of safeguarding people to stay with the Group and
20 rewarding them in an efficient manner.
21 Q. As regards football players, was it a success in getting
22 good football players, do you think?
23 A. As a club, we have been very successful, because we’ve
24 been able to attract players of a certain standard that,
25 perhaps, we may not have been able to do otherwise.
1 Q. We’ve been told that much less use of the trust is now
2 being made. It’s not being used at all, I think we’ve
3 been told, for Group employees. And it’s not much used
4 now for footballers. Why is that?
5 A. We just felt it was appropriate, with the amount of
6 scrutiny and everything that was going on, that it was
7 best to tail it off. Also there wasn’t a lot of bonuses
8 to pay out because the company wasn’t very profitable.
PERHAPS? PERHAPS? No perhaps on Planet Fitbaw, this is footballers and agents thinking we are dealing with. To match what RFC were able to offer a player, other clubs would have had to find 20 to 25% more money or offer an ebt and not report any side letter to the SFA.
When Fergus McCann increased the size and so gate at Celtic Park when he rebuilt it, that investment ended the natural financial advantage RFC historically had over Celtic by way of the main income source – gate money.
It was an investment in that the money used to rebuild the stadium was repaid with interest to the investor(s). To combat that natural and fairly earned advantage involving honest outlay, Sir David Murray choose an unfair route essentially using tax payers money rather than invest his own (but as we all know other people’s money was his path of choice).
To safeguard that route and its intent (football success) football had to be lied to and full contractual details kept from the SFA. In a purely footballing context the nature of ebts, irregular or illegal or regular or legal is irrelevant, for the advantage sought to be realised key information was kept from the SFA (although the term “plausible deniability” or an unwillingness to ask what the ebts in the accounts were is not beyond the bounds of possibility).
More on missing friends:
Some of the excellent RTC contributors who tried it here but didn’t hang around;
Mark Dickson
The Black Swan
the Don Dionisio
I do regret the fact that they didn’t stay with us, but the one I mostly regret not sticking is the inimitable Paulie Walnuts. I really wish he was checking in from time to time.
John Clark on July 12, 2015 at 3:51 pm
———–
You might be right about that John. It’s a little as though because Fergie is now fitba royalty he has an automatic right to be involved. You do worry that he’ll be cornered into saying something about the game needing a strong OF or some such claptrap, or become a corporate mouthpiece. But considering his time at the Dons you’d like to think he would speak for the entirety of football — if he becomes involved.
But fair play to the new pres for at least being visible! His backgroud might suggest he’s not Ogilvie MkII.
Trisidium says:
Moderator: (241 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 4:15 pm
Any you are missing?
————
Lots of the old posters on twitter with their TSFM/RTC alias. Sometimes wonder if TSFM should be more of a presence there. It’s where it’s all happening.
scottc says:
Member: (192 comments)
It was indeed! Still, my point holds, there is a tendency to cherry pick the bits that suits the argument. Rangers history in the new millennium has been a thoroughly dishonourable one, frankly, they are welcome to it
scottc says:
Member: (192 comments)
It was indeed! Still, my point holds, there is a tendency to cherry pick the bits that suits the argument. Rangers history in the new millennium has been a thoroughly dishonourable one, frankly, they are welcome to it
@ Audheid & BurghGer
LNS did go further than describe the EBTs as being “not irregular”.
In Para 104 of the Commission’s Decision, he stated:
“Nor is it a breach of SPL or SFA Rules for a club to arrange its affairs – within the law – so as to minimise its tax liabilities. The Tax Tribunal has held (subject to appeal) that Oldco was acting within the law in setting up and operating the EBT scheme.”
and…..
“Accordingly we proceed on the basis that the EBT arrangements were lawful.”
Thus the Commission has identified that the legality or otherwise of the EBT scheme was a consideration in their decision.
Auldheid’s assertion that the DOS EBT was illegal is therefore a valid one, and did merit separate consideration by the Commission.
There was an excellent Rangers supporting regular on RTC. Was it Jimbo, or something like that? He grew tired of it all during RTC days though.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1299 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 6:15 pm
‘..on twitter with their TSFM/RTC alias. Sometimes wonder if TSFM should be more of a presence there. It’s where it’s all happening’
_________
I have a Twitter account ( different sign-in name) which I use very occasionally to and usually only to check a link someone has posted.
There is no way that in a 120 character limit any kind of reasoned argument can be stated. So as far as I can see, it’s only use is to flash up a news item (of whatever kind) and possibly a reference to the source.
(Or to use a few insulting sweery words not calculated to advance the argument.)
But then, I grow old, I grow old and canny really get with twitter any more than I can with T in the park, though, of course, I’d never say that out loud! 😀
John Clark says:
Member: (987 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 7:20 pm
________________________________________________
The great thing is, JC, you get older AND wiser. Us mere mortals just get old 😉
re the appeal fund…….
is it not possible to put up bank acc details that wouldbe subscribers can lob say 36 quid in as an ‘ annual sub'( voluntary) rather than ‘ bearing’ all to the dreaded paypal…. or an address that a chq made payable to tsfm can be sent to
On the comments on illegality of the DOS wee tax case and EBT big tax case.
In one way all the sporting jiggery pokery was a breach of rules of sport, not illegal.
I do not have the links at hand but i remember this …
Stefan Klos had his contract “outed” by the press, think it was a renewal that showed that his total yearly wages only changed slightly but the amount of the EBT element was huge, he effectively was the highest paid goalkeeper in the world.
However, what sticks with me is this…
1. Stefan klos got a season long injury.
2. Stefan Klos was insured by Rangers who claimed on the insurance.
3. Rangers claimed his wages as the total of his salary and EBT.
Thus Rangers may have committed a seemingly illgal act of maybe “insurance fraud” by claiming for a EBT which could end up not being considered his wages. It would not be correct to claim for Stefan Klos’s discretionary payments to his EBT.
Caveat being Stefan Klos’s insurance contract could have been worded to pay a specified amount rather than to cover “stefan klos’s wages”.
The only real similarity is really the crazy stuff around the lance armstrong case in cycling…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/tourdefrance/2015/02/16/lance-armstrong-sca-promotions-ruling/23496931/
scottish footbal needs strong administration.
buddy
As a Celtic fan I personally feel cheated financially since 1998. I attend all games in Scotland with my sons at different stages in their life. My club has luckily enough had many successes during this period but could have had more IMO. This basically means that I have been deprived of more celebratory times with my boys which is one of the joys as fans is winning trophies/games and sharing this with family or friends. bad enough losing but when you add in the cheating aspect then is it sickens you to the core. What is just as bad is the approach from our SFA and smsm. Mr Murray cheated when he was chairman of Rangers FC, he has never been brought to task for this as yet (and may never will). BDO are still going through the process of liquidation of this club which will take many years and who knows what may come out of this process concerning all the goings on at this club and the people concerned. If HMRC win this ongoing appeal (I say if as i do not have faith in ANY investigation of this club that takes place in Scotland as the past 3 years has shown) then one step towards justice will have been taken. All other fans know what Mr Murray has done but I want it to be proved without doubt what this club through their chairman committed. My club was cheated and all your clubs were cheated and as fans IMO we all have missed out in certain victories and memories of celebrating success with our family and friends, which is down to one man. More fans of Rangers have got to admit what damage this has done to our sport, the press will not ever investigate Mr Murray for reasons we all know. Scotland needs all of it’s football clubs but they all must play on the same level playing field, financially and sportingly. Mr Murray has let down the fans of all clubs because he was allowed to in this country. No other country would tolerate this, and we must ask why?
High Beeswax, Agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. I’d prefer to send a cheque. I no longer have a landline, preferring to use mobiles, Paypal blocked me sending a donation because I could not give a landline No. My suspicion is they sell landline Nos. to all those cold calling companies. TRIS, give a thought to HBs post.
I don’t think Hugh McEwan tuped over, I miss his posts.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/personalfinance/budget-2015-taxman-can-raid-your-bank-accounts/ar-AAcMVoZ?ocid=mailsignoutmd
. . . If I had an EBT, should I be worried ??
Trisidium says:
July 12, 2015 at 3:47 pm
I really don’t know why some Rangers fans from time to time poke a stick at the blog about either the behaviour of Rangers FC in the last couple of decades, or the OCNC debate.
More than anything else it gives guys like Auldheid and Barcabhoy and Easy and Ally Jambos the opportunity to provide the clarity and focus that sometimes gets lost over long periods of little discussion on the matter.
Having said that, please remember that even trolls are entitled to a respectful hearing on the discussion thread. Counter argument – not insult or derision – is the best weapon against untruth and misconception. And of course the mods will end the trolling eventually if it becomes overbearing.
…………………………………………………..
Please do just that – I am thoroughly tired of our latest troll. Despite his/her protestations, I am sure that there is an element of payment involved – just look at the amount of time he/she has committed to the smokescreen. Also worth remarking on Ryan G.’s view of him/her.
While I am in front of the keyboard, can I give a thumbs up to JC yet again – what a scribbling stalwart!
Finally, as a Killie fan, I am not amused by the employment of Mr. ‘Elbows’ at my favourite club. I don’t care if he turns out to be a fantastic coach (like the Coronation one), we should not be employing folk with a ‘pedigree’ like his. The possibility of my buying a season ticket (despite not being able to attend home matches!) has become an impossibility.
I was amazed to see him on the pitch at the Berwick pre-season game yesterday, not having seen any news since early morning.
Remarkably,Sly, sorry, Sky Television were at a Berwick v. Killie pre-season game – wonder why? In passing, they did not interview me – probably just as well.
yakutsuki says:
Member: (58 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 9:16 pm
‘..I don’t think Hugh McEwan tuped over, I miss his posts.’
________
Me too. He could cut to the chase in a sentence or two.Just like Mr Ghosh QC , now I come to think of it!
Eh? Nah, couldn’t be, could it?:grin:
Trisidium says:
Moderator: (241 comments)
July 14, 2015 at 2:37 am
How do you post from the future ?
Haywire says:
Member: (46 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 11:15 pm
‘… I am thoroughly tired of our latest troll…’
_________
Haywire, we must remember that this blog is a huge thorn in the side of the purveyors of a myth , or, more accurately, a Big Lie.
I have no idea how many folk read the blog. But its clearly a big enough number to make the liars take notice: there is money, lovely, necessary season ticket and pay-at-turnstile money ( maybe not pie and bovril and general merchandise money!) to be made.
And the blog gets in the way by attempting to do what the SMSM OUGHT to do: tell the truth about the Lie,and savage the football Authorities for
a) not spotting the cheating ,over many years, of SDM and
b) when it was exposed, collaborating with the Administrators and Charles Green in the dirty 5-way agreement, in a desperate attempt to keep the cheating, dead RFC alive under the fiction that he was buying ‘Rangers’.
That ( expletive deleted) Administrator ,Whitehouse, said ” Mr Green has secured, via a substantial financial commitment, a period of exclusivity to complete the purchase of the Club and this is expected to be finalised at a creditors’ meeting on June 6′.
Unfortunately for the glib-tongued Whitehouse, there was no CVA ( as, I believe, he damned well knew would be the case).
So, the Club was liquidated, and CG , bound by his ‘exclusivity deal’, had to pony up ( gleefully) for the assets of a liquidated business, at a knockdown price.
I know that, you know that, and the SMSM know that.And so did the football authorities.
But they ALL continue to peddle the untruth that CG bought the ‘Rangers’, and the further untruth that SDM’s earlier cheating should not result in the appropriate title stripping.
This blog , with its insistence on the primacy of sporting integrity, really digs them up.
And they will fight back.
The SFA will fight back, the SPFL will fight back, the running dog lackeys will fight back, BBC Radio Scotland leading the pack of lamb-guzzling unsportsmanlike betrayers of their profession.
We must expect the odd troll or three, working shifts, to earn their filthy lucre..
Bad cess, and very bad cess, to all such trolls.
ekt1m says:
Member: (68 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 9:13 pm
‘…. Paypal blocked me sending a donation because I could not give a landline No.’
________
Are they trying to cut their own throats? There’s a whole generation grown up with the idea that having a landline is something that their grandparents had, when phone technology was ‘primitive’, and when the whole world knew which organisation’s number was ‘Whitehall 1212’.
If I was a shareholder in Paypal i think I’d be checking out whether their board were dinosaurs ‘like what I am’ , and if so, get them hunted.
Was on another mixed forum today when tax matters were raised esp. re. testimonials, but eventually EBTs came into it. I was able to ‘inform’ the thread about a few details thanks to all the information gathered on here over time. (Hope I was correct!)
A quick glance around the media online this morning makes me wonder whether any football manager in history has ever been so lauded when the sum total of his club record is a 3-2 friendly defeat behind closed doors to a Spurs youth team. A number of top clubs must be kicking themselves that they missed out on this managerial genius who was available for free.
None of this is his fault of course, bit it hardly does him any favours either.
John Clark says:
Member: (990 comments)
July 12, 2015 at 7:20 pm
…So as far as I can see, it’s only use is to flash up a news item (of whatever kind) and possibly a reference to the source…
———-
It’s surprising how succinct folks can be in 120 characters John! I see it more as a way to increase the blog’s profile with short links to certain posts or direct questions to journos.
Many of the people in the media we reference are on twitter. But that kind social media engagement takes time and I expect the TSFM crew are stretched as it is. Barca, Auldheid and others do attempt to engage journos themselves but it might have more weight if backed up by an official SFM twitter? Lots of humour on twitter too: @TheClumpany @FrPaulStone & @TheTributeAct among others, are pretty funny guys who also get to the point rather well. Anyway, it’s a tool for TSFM/SFM that could be very useful, imo.
@James Forrest
Good one James. Thought this near the end summed it nicely:
Bit bemused at some of the posts. Just looking to contribute to the discussion in a, with any luck, reasoned manner.
@burghGer
I was prepared to cut you some slack and perhaps still am but you are doing yourself no favours in many respects.
As AllyJambo has pointed out you appear to swing from complete naivety to expert in the field on the same subject very quickly.
As somebody else has pointed out you appear not to understand the words MUST and ALL in relation to the responsibility of lodging with the SFA details of all player remuneration.
Did you manage to keep a straight face when putting RIP after the 1st two incarnations of the football team from Bournemouth even if all 3 have played in the same stadium over the last 105 years?
Celtic have been accused of winning tainted titles for the last 4 seasons but Rangers apparently don’t have tainted titles dating back almost 20 years. Titles won with players receiving illegal payments. Yes that’s illegal as in the 3 admitted to in the Wee Tax Case and those found not to be legitimate by Tribunals for the Big Tax Case. Titles have also been won with players receiving irregular payments not disclosed to the SFA deliberately as that would also have alerted HMRC.
Finally you need to understand that even if payments were regular and above board from a legal/HMRC point of view that doesn’t necessarily mean that the player in receipt was eligible to play. The LNS commission was flawed from the start because the remit was altered to rule out the wee tax case( guilt already established), was then presented with the ludicrous Bryson defence and the fact that such a ludicrous defence went unchallenged.
Easy Jambo 6.39
Thanks for that addition re the illegal status of the wtc ebts. I’d forgotten.
It reminds me that when reading that section in the Decision a while ago I wondered what SPL and SFA rule was breached and what the sanction would be?
Having already been found guilty of other behaviour that was almost equivalent of match fixing and that sanction having been challenged, would they have had the 5 stars ordered off the jersey or ordered to pay the face painter?
You can see what a bind RFC put our national association in.
Just a wee note on the ads by way of update:
The ads on the site are still a suck-it-and-see experiment to gauge how much revenue we could raise from that source.
We have been advised that it may take some time before we can see a clear picture emerging on revenue trends. That revenue is based on clicks-through from the ads, so having appropriate ads served will help – although we have no control over that.
The early outcomes of the experiement are not very encouraging. We are earning only £5 per day from the ads. This is far less than the projections, especially given the fact they were based on a conservative estimate of our readership. It is also far less than the initial indications, when the novelty of having the ads in the first few days resulted in a klikfest!
You will also notice that we have an Amazon ad on the site too, which only works if people buy stuff from Amazon after arriving there from our banner. Thanks to some loyal support, we have accumulated about £20 from that source 🙂
We are aware of the reservations that many of you have about advertising in general, and the choice of advertisers in particular. At this time there appears to be little choice for us, although we hope to develop an ethical policy going forward.
To summarise, advertising is as crucial as donations and contributions to our expansion. Looking forward, it will only work for us if the ads are targeted well.
Ultimately that works optimally if we have a site sponsor who actually targets US, and sees a direct benefit to his or her business which attaches to a relationship with SFM.
We are working hard to find such sponsor(s).
We will of course encourage and welcome any of your suggestions on the sponsorship front, or advice on more lucrative advertising routes.
Lastly, apologies for the finance-oriented nature of my last couple of posts. Now that the break is over, I am trying to get back on track with our plans, and unfortunately a sound financial base is my first priority – after sporting integrity of course 🙄
In light of the recent LNS discussions, I thought it worthwhile to remind folk of a post by eco on Paul McConville’s random thoughts site, and reproduced on the Scottish Law Reporter site. As far as I recall, no answers ever came forth.
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/rangers-given-no-title-stripping-guarantee-in-secret-spl-deal-by-ecojon/#more-4158
http://scottishlaw.blogspot.com/2013/09/questions-over-nimmo-smith-inquiry-as.html
upthehoops says:
Member: (777 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 7:13 am
A quick glance around the media online this morning makes me wonder whether any football manager in history has ever been so lauded when the sum total of his club record is a 3-2 friendly defeat behind closed doors to a Spurs youth team. A number of top clubs must be kicking themselves that they missed out on this managerial genius who was available for free.
None of this is his fault of course, bit it hardly does him any favours either.
==============================
Compare and contrast with Ronny Deila’s treatment by the SMSM last season.
If Mark Warburton can deliver promotion and the coveted Petrofac Training Cup, will that achievement be reported the same way as RD’s debut season Premiership and League Cup double? (That last bit was rhetorical of course)
I’ve just been reading elsewhere about celeb sevconian Lynsey Sharp tweeting offensive things re Jock Stein. With high profile ‘fans’ like that, their seige mentality, sense of priveledge, superiority complex, their cosy wee 5 way agreement, sectarian history, threatening anyone who mentions old club in the media, etc, etc, etc. Please remind me why I’m bustin my sides at them writhing in purgatory again? Lest I forget!
BurghGer: “Last time I checked, fraud was a criminal offence. Where are the criminal charges? There are none. Have you made a complaint to the police? I suspect not.”
There has been sufficient interest by Plod for “raids” (sic) by both ScotPlad and CityPlod in relation to “Rangers” of varying incarnations, so your argument in relation to no smoke/no fire is moot. That they have not charged anyone (yet) is only proof (usually) that they do not (yet) have sufficient evidence to proceed with a case or that there is uncertainty in the outcome of such a case.
yakutsuki says:
Member: (59 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 2:09 pm
I’ve just been reading elsewhere about celeb sevconian Lynsey Sharp tweeting offensive things re Jock Stein. With high profile ‘fans’ like that, their seige mentality, sense of priveledge, superiority complex, their cosy wee 5 way agreement, sectarian history, threatening anyone who mentions old club in the media, etc, etc, etc. Please remind me why I’m bustin my sides at them writhing in purgatory again? Lest I forget!
============================
I read about that earlier.
It appeared to be very distasteful, and something that someone not in possession of a brass neck would find excruciatingly embarrassing.
No doubt Dave King will be pressed heavily on his and his club’s attitude to such things by Peter Smith of STV at the unveiling of the long awaited WarbyChest, as the SMSM maintains it’s consistant and unbiased approach to its reporting.
Interesting and enjoyable evening seeing a seriously jet-lagged Big Pink playing with his (very, very loud) band in Rockus (in the West End) last night.
Doubt we will be hearing from him any time soon, although he did say he’s be back in action by the end of the week 🙁
First post for ages. . Last one ever methinks . .
WHY IS IT SO COMPLICATED NOW ?
INFURIATING ADVERTS THROWING ME ONTO PAGES OF GUFF. .
I was feeling unloved and unwanted before when I was effectively outed as a non-contributor by the member/contributor designation thingy. . My status there was dictated by the absence of an address to send the postal order guys . . have NEVER and will NEVER trust my money to this electronic web thingy . .
As it turns out my dinosaur status doesnt really matter as the adverts etc have ruined the experience for me and I think I’ll give it a miss . . pity cos the posts are still grand . .
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (503 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 2:44 pm
yakutsuki says:
Member: (59 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 2:09 pm
I’ve just been reading elsewhere about celeb sevconian Lynsey Sharp tweeting offensive things re Jock Stein. With high profile ‘fans’ like that, their seige mentality, sense of priveledge, superiority complex, their cosy wee 5 way agreement, sectarian history, threatening anyone who mentions old club in the media, etc, etc, etc. Please remind me why I’m bustin my sides at them writhing in purgatory again? Lest I forget!
============================
I read about that earlier.
It appeared to be very distasteful, and something that someone not in possession of a brass neck would find excruciatingly embarrassing.
No doubt Dave King will be pressed heavily on his and his club’s attitude to such things by Peter Smith of STV at the unveiling of the long awaited WarbyChest, as the SMSM maintains it’s consistant and unbiased approach to its reporting.
=============================================================================
As long as the age old attitudes remain, nothing will change for them and hell mend them. Mon the ‘Karmageddon!’
Fear TSFM loosing its real focus, with huge fund raising and stuff.
Fan power was simple, to their clubs.
Is there not a simpler route – simpler to stay as a blog that exposes SFA for what it is…..
Ask questions, arrange polls, try to get UEFA/CAS involved?
Now I may well be somewhat naive in admitting a certain lack of knowledge here (possibly because I live south of Hadrian’s magnum opus), but could one of our more worldly posters enlighten me as to who/what is Lynsey Sharp?
Or, reading between the lines posted, should I not bother anyway?
An eye-catching headline from a Graeme McGarry at The Herald;
“Exclusive Interview: Nicky Law says Mark Warburton will get Rangers playing ‘total football’ ”
[Edit: To be fair Nicky Law is indeed quoted as using the term ‘total football’.]
====================================================================
:slamb: :slamb: :slamb:
IIRC, total football is fundamentally where your outfield players are of such technical ability that they are talented and comfortable with switching positions throughout a game.
And to add to his bargain-basement squad replenishments, this previously unknown, without a club, chappie Warburton is getting one heck of a build up before the season starts.
And this ‘journalist’ McGarry is writing some amount of p!sh. 🙄
I think we’ve since this movie before…Groundhog Day, but without the happy ending…again ?
dj7 says:
Member: (2 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 3:55 pm
Fear TSFM loosing its real focus, with huge fund raising and stuff…
=====================================================================
As for my own second post a few years ago: I wouldn’t have had the hubris to make such a sweeping statement.
Anent Ms Sharp, sometimes apolgise are genuine and serve their purpose, other times they are phrased in such a way as to make matters worse. For her to apologise on the basis that she did not know what she was doing nor the vileness of the slur is truly nauseating. The whole use of that slogan as a way to wind up opposing fans is way beyond the pale. This kind of antediluvian behaviour has no place in a society coming to terms with that kind of crime where many victims spend a lifetime trying to heal in mind and spirit and who can be damaged by that kind of trivialising of what is heinous crimes.
Mark me down as churlish but hell mend the followers of TRFC who engage in such behaviours. Dignity …really ?
Haywire Ms Sharp makes a living by running around in circles trying to catch much faster folk running the same circles, she is one of the TRFC’s high profile supporters. Her father ran in straight lines and suffered a stroke at a young age, she should think about how unacceptable stroke jokes are to gauge the depth of what she has said
burghGer says:
Member: (41 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 10:52 am
“Bit bemused at some of the posts. Just looking to contribute to the discussion in a, with any luck, reasoned manner.”
———————————
Your contributions are welcome but there has been a history of suspected PR trolls in the guise of Rangers contributors surfacing on the blog and not adding anything worthwhile to the debate.
I’m not saying you fall into this category but there is a recognisable modus operandi that you may be inadvertently adopting.
Perhaps like me, you like a sparky debate and see the value at poking a stick into things to see what reaction you get. If this is the case then such an attitude is best served if you are looking to absorb information that will in due course inform your own opinion and perhaps, should you feel it appropriate, alter your perspective.
Poking a stick at LNS is fine since revisiting some of these topics is worthwhile. However you might not be fully aware of the forum’s history I suspect.
Topics like LNS have been debated over days, months and years. Whilst this does not in itself imbue long standing contributors and readers with any special insight, it will have informed their opinion over time. Some of the debate has been extremely detailed and complex and therefore blog gut reaction may not merely be a result of prejudice against others perspectives. It may be based on a well founded understanding of the arguments. Arguments that cannot be recollected in detail since they have been so numerous that it would be impossible to recall them is such detail.
I think the blog demands a little more subtlety of approach. Poke a stick by all means but try and find the right trajectory for your incision and the appropriate weight of argument. It is important that the blog is representative of the whole footballing community and for obvious reasons the number of Rangers fans posting is not proportionate with the demographic.
There is probably a fine line between being ‘on message’ and being informed. We would not wish to be so prescriptive that we exclude alternative perspectives or so high brow that the content becomes innaccessible. However you have made a lot of contributions over a short period of time and have attracted a lot of responses. Your curiosity is admirable but it must be tempered with the knowledge that a lot of contributors have been through the mill on many of these topics. Your view is just as valid but we are all capable of falling into that egocentric perspective that suggests we have special and irrefutable insight. What the blog teaches long term readers is that the ‘truth’ is a tapestry and not a single colour. You can add to that tapestry but should avoid trying to paint the vista with your own outlook.
If you are really serious about contributing, your patience will grow with your understanding. More than that, if you make contributions that are purely observational and which are not driven by any preformed agendas, you will influence the blog over time. Pre-formed agendas are difficult to avoid. We can all find ourselves trying to justify an outlook without fully engaging with the evidence we are drawing upon. I do it myself occasionally. However the most interesting posters are those that stand back and say it how they see it. That’s the power of crowd sourced knowledge. It eventually lets go the umbilical of achievement and starts to track the trail of understanding.
If all this esoteric mumbo jumbo is not really gratifying, you will lose interest and drift away. You will not have lent your character to the blog and the blog will not recognise your contributions as worthwhile.
I like to write stuff, that’s why I come on here. I have my personal bias but I try to resist it. I have some insight but I know there are others that have more. More importantly, the blog as an entity comprises a capability that far outweighs the expertise of any one person. Be a part of a family of many. Be patient with yourself and us. Show your curiosity intelligently. Don’t assume that because you have a sense of startling insight that this will necessarily be widely appreciated by others.
bfbpuzzled says:
Member: (225 comments)
July 13, 2015 at 4:19 pm
Anent Ms Sharp, sometimes apolgise are genuine and serve their purpose, other times they are phrased in such a way as to make matters worse. For her to apologise on the basis that she did not know what she was doing nor the vileness of the slur is truly nauseating. The whole use of that slogan as a way to wind up opposing fans is way beyond the pale.
——————————————————————-
In my view, for her to have used that slogan she was either a) genuine in that she claimed she hadn’t understood the meaning, or b) incredibly stupid having known all along what it mean’t
Now I understand I don’t live in the bubble that surrounds two certain teams and their supporters, but I have to say I had never heard of this slogan before, doesn’t seem such a leap that she hadn’t either.
Either way I personally feel this is not SFM territory.