Over the past couple of years, we have built a healthy, vibrant and influential community which recognises the need to counter the corporate propaganda spouted by the mainstream media on behalf of the football authorities.
The media have, not entirely but in the main, been hostage to the patronage of those in charge of the club/media links, and to the narrow demographic of their readership. Despite a continuing rejection of the media’s position by that readership (in terms of year on year slump in sales) there is an obstinate refusal to see what is by now inevitable – the death of the print media. The lamb metaphor in fact ironically moving to the slaughter.
The football authorities in Scotland, once the country that gave the world the beautiful game, are rigid with fear that their own world will fall apart – because they are wedded to the idea that only one football match actually matters. To that end they will do whatever it takes to ensure that it continues. They have long since dispensed with the notion that football is an interdependent industry, and incredibly, even those who are not participants in that match follow like sheep towards the abattoir.
The argument is no longer that one club cheated and got away with it. The debate that we need to have is one about what is paramount in the eyes of the clubs and the media . Is it the inegrity of sporting endeavour, or box-office?
For out part, independent sites like this have accelerated the print media’s demise, and there have been temporary successes in persuading the clubs to uphold the spirit of sport. However our role has up to now been to cast a spotlight on the inaccuracies, inconsistencies and downright lies that routinely pass for news. News that is imagined up by PR agencies and dutifully copied by the lazy pretend-journalists who betray no thought whatsoever during the process.
Despite our successes, it really is not enough. We have the means at our disposal to do more, but do more we need to change ourselves, because the authorities sure as hell aren’t gonna.
We need to provide meaningful insight into the game that removes the Old Firm prism from the light path. We need to provide news that has covered all of the angles. We need to entertain, inform and energise fans of sport and all clubs.
We need to do that from a wholly independent perspective. None of this refusing to tell the truth about club allegiances. There is no reason why intelligent men and women can’t be objective in spite of their own allegiances (although the corollary absolutely holds true). Our experience of the MSM in this country is that the lack of arms-length principles in the media has corrupted it to such an extent that they barely recognise truth and objectivity. We need to be firm on those arms-length principles.
In order to do that we have put together a plan (with enough room to manoeuvre if required) as follows;
We will rebrand and re-launch as the Independent Sports Monitor. We have acquired the domains isMonitor.co.uk and IndependentSportsMonitor.co.uk, and those will be the main urls after the re-launch, hopefully later in the summer.
The change in name reflects the reality of our current debate which is not always confined to Scotland or football. It will also give us the option in future of applying the success of our model to other sports and jurisdictions through partner sites and blogs. This should also help in our efforts to raise funds in the future. However any expansion outwith the domain of Scottish football is some time away, and will depend on the success we have with the core model.
Our mission statement will be;
- ISM will seek to build a community of sports fans whose overarching aim is the integrity of competition in the sport.
- ISM will, without favour, seek to find objective truths on the conduct and administration of sport. We will avoid building relationships with individuals or organisations which would bring us into conflict with that.
- ISM will provide a platform for the views of ALL fans, and guarantee that those views will be heard in a mutually respectful environment.
- ISM will also endeavour to inform and entertain members on a wide range of topics related to our shared love of sport.
- ISM will seek to represent the views of sports fans to sporting authorities and hold the authorities to account.
We have estimated our (modest) costs to expand our role as per recent discussions. The expanded role will take the form of a new Internet Radio Channel where we hope to provide 24/7 content by the end of the year. It will also see a greater news role where we will engage directly with clubs and authorities to seek answers to our questions directly. And we will seek to contact the best fan sites across Scotland with a view to showcasing their content.
We have identified individuals who we want to work (initially on a part time basis) towards our objectives, we have identified premises where we want to conduct our business, and we hope to move into those premises during this summer.
To finance these plans there are a couple of stages;
- Initially (as soon as possible) we need to pay accommodation and hosting costs for the first year. To do so, we hope to appeal to the community itself. Our aim is to raise around £5000 by the end of August.
- There are salary costs (around £15,000) attached to our first year plan, but these have been underwritten by Big Pink, and equipment costs (est. £3000). These will be reimbursed if the advertising campaign we recently started bears any fruit (we will not know about that for a few months).
- It will not be too discouraging if we make losses in the first couple of years, so if necessary we will seek crowd-funding to finance our plans if the resources of the community itself prove inadequate to smooth a path to break-even point.
Our first year may be a perilous hand-to-mouth existence, but I am certain the journey will be an exciting and enjoyable one. We will also need to search our community resources for contacts at clubs; players, officials, ex-players, local journalists etc. Please get in touch if you have any in at your club.
We also hope to tap into the expertise of our community for advice, comment and analysis of developments, and we will be looking for any aspiring presenters, journalists, sound and video editors, graphic designers (and lots of others) to help us find our feet. Any offers of assistance would be gratefully accepted.
We mustn’t lose sight of why we are doing this. It is because we love our sport, because we want to be able to continue to call it that, and because the disconnect we find in Scottish football, that of the conflicting interests of the fans and the money men, will never be addressed as long as the fans are hopelessly split.
The ultimate goal is to allow sport – not our individual clubs – to triumph over the greed and corporate troglodyte-ism of those people who run it. I am confident that we as a community desperately want to be able to make a difference. That is why I am confident we can achieve our aim of becoming a significant player in the game.
Noticed that Celtic started with 5 Scots / Malmö with 5 Swedes. Both managers from Norway.
But there was more Nordic in Malmö’s 2 Norwegians and 1 Icelander. And Celtic had also 1 Swede and 1 Norwegian. All in all, a real northern tie 🙂
Quick look at the main southern regional newspaper in Sweden this morning and it’s a quiet optimism that Malmö will progress. Manager not so quiet, though. A bit of inter-Norwegian rivalry?
Another quick check and I can’t find a Scottish team Malmö have lost to over two legs 😯
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.
Btw, the new stadium in Malmö has a potential for 6,000 standing fans. The usual capacity is 21,000 seated, but with the alternative setup they increase that to 24,000. Nifty. Noisy stadium too, for its size.
PS @Yakutsuki, Mine annaw.
well am with theres only one willie miller here. if the shoe were on the other foot and it were the dons with celtics trophy hall and wealth, am sure most celtic fans would want to see the dons stopped from picking up millions more on top of such wealth and glory . like has been said celtic winning the league is the equivalent of winning the tour de france on a motor bike,yet some celtic fans expect us turkeys to vote for xmas,come on be honest with yourselves.if there wasn’t so much big money involved am sure most dons fans would wish celtic well,including myself.
truth of the matter is we dont have the religious sectarian divide as an attraction which many young people find quite appealing and still remains a big draw card, plus the glory that the glasgow clubs hold,though only one club can hold that distinction now.
we aberdonians just want to see a more level playing field here and in europe, whats wrong with that.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.
——————————————————————–
And there is a strong valid point behind it. IMO Celtic will never win anything in Europe again, simply because the monetary differences between them and the real big boys is too big. There is a decent chance that the remaining 40 odd clubs in Scotland will never win the league again – because the monetary differences between them and the big boy (Celtic) is simply too big. Celtic getting into the Champions (a misnomer if ever there was one) league would only make the disparity in Scotland much much bigger. Other clubs can and will win the cups, because it is a proper cup competition – one off games are way, way, way more exciting than this european league dross that we are all supposed to get so excited about (and has now put my phone bill up thanks to BT spending an obscene amount of cash on it).
In that respect I can fully understand, and indeed have more than just a little sympathy for the idea that Celtic failing is actually the best thing that could happen for Scottish football – maybe not so not obviously good for Celtic, in the short term anyway, but for the rest of us hell yeah!!
So lets say it means we will have to enter in round one of the qualifying – we will still get knocked out when we meet a team that’s better than us, be it round 1,2,3 or the play-off round. Given a good run and a good headwind on occasion we might reach the league stage now and again.
All this talk of how we need to increase our coefficient – all that will mean is we enter in the final round of qualifying and will thus be far more likely to get knocked straight out by a strong team. Personally I rather enjoyed Aberdeens jaunt around the far east of “europe” to play fellow “diddies”, the players will have learnt a lot, several large attendances at home will have helped the coffers (although perhaps not so much given the cost of flying to Kairat and back).
So, to be honest, the coefficient is utterly pointless to all bar the clubs that really expect to go far in Europe and Celtic obviously include themselves in that pot of teams. If Celtic get to the leagues this year and manage continue that for the next few seasons the Scottish Premier League will suffer massively. John Collins thinks it’s bad now! Oh and I’m not forgetting the so called solidarity payments – a spit in the ocean.
Re Tayred above,
I think in summary what you’re saying TR is that to the majority of clubs in Scotland (and I accept not the majority of fans but we’re working on that 😉 ) there is no real distinction between one club domination and two, other than to the ability of the dominant club(s) to sustain itself, which, by definition, isn’t the concern of the other diddy clubs – quite the opposite in fact. Is that a fair summary?
Sorry to take the blog on a tangent but I don’t seem to be able to contribute to Phil’s site. For those that have read his latest ‘Investigative Churnalism’ piece can someone remind me of the positioning of ‘Alpha holdings’ and ‘The New Oasis’ Trust. I think the latter was DCK’s vehicle for buying his shares but I don’t quite get the bladed reference to ‘the beneficiary.’
I know I can rely on the ‘ready reckoners’ available on here.
I watched the Celtic game last night and, not for the first time, wonder if the pundits/commentators are being paid to hype up some of the Celtic players. Hartson and Mjalby stating that Van Dijk was worth £15m is one the funniest things I have ever heard. He is a decent player at SPL level but is not good enough on the European stage.
For all Celtics efforts I think that they will lose in Sweden and drop out of the champions league due to a lack of quality at this level. They only have three players who look like they could do a job for any team (outside of the top 10 teams in Europe) Malmo look a bit shaky in defence but Celtic lack a second good striker with only Griffiths having real quality up front (I have no idea why Celtic signed Ciftci – he brings nothing to this side).
The reasons for all this are easy to see. The best players want to face a challenge week in, week out. In Scotland this cannot happen due to the huge difference in spending power between Celtic and the rest of Scottish football put together. I have said it for a few years now and will say it again. If Celtic ever want to be a force in European football again they must find another league to play in where they will be up against teams that can match them in spending power £ for £, this would also be the best thing for Scottish football turning it from a 1 horse race into one of the most competitive leagues in the world at a stroke. (the same goes for Rangers, if they can ever fix their financial problems).
Will this happen ? No. Celtic and their fans are quite happy with their status as top dog’s in Scottish football and who can blame them. Better to be the big fish in a small pond than try to compete with giant sharks in an ocean.
tayred says:
Member: (169 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:59 am
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.
——————————————————————–
And there is a strong valid point behind it. IMO Celtic will never win anything in Europe again, simply because the monetary differences between them and the real big boys is too big. There is a decent chance that the remaining 40 odd clubs in Scotland will never win the league again – because the monetary differences between them and the big boy (Celtic) is simply too big. Celtic getting into the Champions (a misnomer if ever there was one) league would only make the disparity in Scotland much much bigger. Other clubs can and will win the cups, because it is a proper cup competition – one off games are way, way, way more exciting than this european league dross that we are all supposed to get so excited about (and has now put my phone bill up thanks to BT spending an obscene amount of cash on it).
In that respect I can fully understand, and indeed have more than just a little sympathy for the idea that Celtic failing is actually the best thing that could happen for Scottish football – maybe not so not obviously good for Celtic, in the short term anyway, but for the rest of us hell yeah!!
So lets say it means we will have to enter in round one of the qualifying – we will still get knocked out when we meet a team that’s better than us, be it round 1,2,3 or the play-off round. Given a good run and a good headwind on occasion we might reach the league stage now and again.
All this talk of how we need to increase our coefficient – all that will mean is we enter in the final round of qualifying and will thus be far more likely to get knocked straight out by a strong team. Personally I rather enjoyed Aberdeens jaunt around the far east of “europe” to play fellow “diddies”, the players will have learnt a lot, several large attendances at home will have helped the coffers (although perhaps not so much given the cost of flying to Kairat and back).
So, to be honest, the coefficient is utterly pointless to all bar the clubs that really expect to go far in Europe and Celtic obviously include themselves in that pot of teams. If Celtic get to the leagues this year and manage continue that for the next few seasons the Scottish Premier League will suffer massively. John Collins thinks it’s bad now! Oh and I’m not forgetting the so called solidarity payments – a spit in the ocean.
==========================================
Your logic is quite correct in my opinion, although I know some people will not want to accept it as it is perhaps hard for them to swallow.
Logically it is of no advantage to the other clubs for an already wealthy club to vastly increase its revenues through European competition.
Of course this isn’t Celtic’s fault so I personally I would not wish them any ill will as such. (and I don’t think you intend that either btw)
The problem is very much with the very inequitable way in which UEFA have been persuaded to configure their competitions (as we have discussed before).
That’s a problem I don’t see anyone in the media making any attempt to draw focus or discuss. Which is quite sad I think.
motor red says:
Member: (25 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:31 am
well am with theres only one willie miller here
_____________________________________________________
I am sure that most Celtic fans are grown-up enough to take it on the chin, but your argument is extremely one-dimensional, and flies in the face of logic and observed behaviour.
Firstly, your logic, taken to its natural conclusion, would prevent you wishing success on any Scottish team in Europe for fear that their financial position would be to your disadvantage. As a Celtic fan I am therefore not offended by your thoughts, just a bit bewildered. The real way to deal with lack of competition is not to wish failure on Scottish teams in Europe (which is bad for morale all round), but to install a better redistribution model at national level.
Also, Celtic are already (if reports are correct) down £30m owing to the absence of a Rangers in the top division. Is that really affecting the relative situations of them and Aberdeen?
I am also a bit dismayed to find that we are not ALL in it together here 🙁
One thing that does set us apart from other sites is our respect for each other. The poster who sent his message of congratulation to Malmo (and by the way, I’d like to send my own congratulations to their wonderful fans for the noise and colour last night), was the same person who last week told us that the site was going downhill because the level of debate and flow of content was dropping.
Is this the level he wishes to raise it to? An ejaculatory “well done Malmo!”? Oh and by the way, even after his complaint about the lack of a new blog we are still looking for his reply to my invitation to provide one 🙂
He was in my opinion trolling, pure and simple – as when was last week when he had a go at the blog. He also has a track record when it comes to Celtic, and for the record, I don’t think he is a fan of Aberdeen.
Ordinarily that post would have been removed. Can anyone seriously imagine a post which expressed the same sentiment about any other Scottish team’s opponent surviving five minutes here? It most certainly would not, and the (very sheepish but nameless) mod on duty owes us all an apology that it wasn’t removed. It is now gone.
The substantive point that you make motor red, is worthy of discussion. I don’t agree with it at all, but I am sure you didn’t take any pleasure in the disappointing end (from a Celtic perspective) to the game last night.
Ianagain got it right – again. He was hoping for an uplift in the co-efficient, but correctly observed self-inflicted wounds from the Celtic team.
Even after that disappointment, as a Celtic fan, the atmosphere at the game (Zadoc and all) was wonderful. That is something I would be glad to see back more often, not the malignancy of the OF.
The inequality around distribution of the lolly sloshing (and it is) around the higher echelons of European fitba and in Scotland will not be fixed by Celtic not progressing in the CL or whatever it’s called. The fix needs to be done at a pan Euro and Scotland level around TV rights, collective sponsorship and prize money IMO. As long as Celtic pull in 40,000 and my team, for example, 12,000 there will always be a gap and quite rightly so. The fact that the financial gap between the “big” Euro teams and Celtic is proportionate to the gap between Celtic and the rest of us in a manner that protects/enhances the status quo in the extreme is the problem. Fitba reflecting the current political environment in fact!
For what it’s worth I think Malmo are not good enough to beat Celtic over the tie and I expect Celtic to qualify. I hope so.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (353 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 11:40 am
motor red says:
Member: (25 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:31 am
well am with theres only one willie miller here
_____________________________________________________
I am sure that most Celtic fans are grown-up enough to take it on the chin, but your argument is extremely one-dimensional, and flies in the face of logic and observed behaviour.
Firstly, your logic, taken to its natural conclusion, would prevent you wishing success on any Scottish team in Europe for fear that their financial position would be to your disadvantage. As a Celtic fan I am therefore not offended by your thoughts, just a bit bewildered. The real way to deal with lack of competition is not to wish failure on Scottish teams in Europe (which is bad for morale all round), but to install a better redistribution model at national level.
Also, Celtic are already (if reports are correct) down £30m owing to the absence of a Rangers in the top division. Is that really affecting the relative situations of them and Aberdeen?
I am also a bit dismayed to find that we are not ALL in it together here 🙁
One thing that does set us apart from other sites is our respect for each other. The poster who sent his message of congratulation to Malmo (and by the way, I’d like to send my own congratulations to their wonderful fans for the noise and colour last night), was the same person who last week told us that the site was going downhill because the level of debate and flow of content was dropping.
Is this the level he wishes to raise it to? An ejaculatory “well done Malmo!”? Oh and by the way, even after his complaint about the lack of a new blog we are still looking for his reply to my invitation to provide one 🙂
He was in my opinion trolling, pure and simple – as when was last week when he had a go at the blog. He also has a track record when it comes to Celtic, and for the record, I don’t think he is a fan of Aberdeen.
Ordinarily that post would have been removed. Can anyone seriously imagine a post which expressed the same sentiment about any other Scottish team’s opponent surviving five minutes here? It most certainly would not, and the (very sheepish but nameless) mod on duty owes us all an apology that it wasn’t removed. It is now gone.
The substantive point that you make motor red, is worthy of discussion. I don’t agree with it at all, but I am sure you didn’t take any pleasure in the disappointing end (from a Celtic perspective) to the game last night.
Ianagain got it right – again. He was hoping for an uplift in the co-efficient, but correctly observed self-inflicted wounds from the Celtic team.
Even after that disappointment, as a Celtic fan, the atmosphere at the game (Zadoc and all) was wonderful. That is something I would be glad to see back more often, not the malignancy of the OF.
========================================
BP,
I agree with a lot of this but add some comments…
There seems little hope at the moment of a change in the national distribution model, and I haven’t seen anyone in the media or within our sport suggest this should be addresses as a means to improve the competitiveness of our league. Again I find it sad that this blog is one of the few places to recognise this issue. What hope does our game have of escaping 1 or 2 team system?
A national distribution change might help but without a serious rethink by UEFA it won’t be enough to resolve the cash/competitiveness gap IMO. The whole set up of the 2 UEFA competitions is completely wrong and punishes small clubs, creating safety nets for large ones.
Lastly the point about improving coefficients doesn’t really have a strong enough positive effect on the smaller clubs to really carry the support of their fans. Again I lay the blame for that at UEFA’s door (and the cabal of large clubs who have influenced the make of their competitions). The coefficient and seeding system is garbage, with teams who have never played a game before in Europe capable of being seeded ahead of a team from another country that has played in Europe several teams in recent years.
I think all this over the years leads to a bitterness from some small club fans at times. I can sort of understand that why when it seems so unfair, but I don’t think it helps anyone for fans to hold onto those attitudes. As you say we NEED to be all in it together if we want to change Scottish Football for the better.
With respect to the trolling, couldn’t agree more with you.
Smugas says:
Member: (909 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 11:16 am
Re Tayred above,
I think in summary what you’re saying TR is that to the majority of clubs in Scotland (and I accept not the majority of fans but we’re working on that ? ) there is no real distinction between one club domination and two, other than to the ability of the dominant club(s) to sustain itself, which, by definition, isn’t the concern of the other diddy clubs – quite the opposite in fact. Is that a fair summary?
——————————————————————-
I guess it could be read that way, but from my side of the fence rather than the “ability of the dominant club(s) to sustain itself, which, by definition, isn’t the concern of the other diddy clubs” it appears to be more a case that “as long as the dominant club can sustain itself then they won’t concern themselves with the others”
Please don’t take this as anti-Celtic, that’s not what I mean at all (thanks Matty Roth). It’s anti-UEFA, anti-FIFA, and their apparent desire to end all competition outwith the very top teams. Any clubs that can continue to have reasonable aspirations to reach the Champions Leagues will effectively hammer home another nail into their National league every time they achieve their aim.
Finally to answer your first question, to my mind constant domination of a league by any team(s) is fundamentally a bad thing. Some sharing of trophies surely means it is by default a more exciting league. I am lucky enough to be old enough (not a common phrase!) to remember the Aberdeen team of the 80’s. Would it have been such an exciting time if we just romped every game? Of course not! It was a time where Celtic, Hearts and Dundee Utd especially were all more than capable of beating us and each other.
Actually I’ll take this moment to comment on something I ignored a few weeks ago – the famous John Collins views on the quality of SPFL rivals.
Firstly the reason I didn’t bother to comment before is I didn’t really have any particular issue with what JC said, after all he was asked for his opinion and gave it as he sees it.
The ensuing debate in the media seemed to be mostly people seeking to take or to make offence and lots of needlessly twisted knickers.
The most interesting/discussed things about what JC said SHOULD have been IMO
– WHY is the gap so big? (between what Celtic face domestically and in Europe) and
– HOW do we close the gap?
All the other caffufle was pointless really.
berrty says:
Member: (30 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 11:31 am
I have said it for a few years now and will say it again. If Celtic ever want to be a force in European football again they must find another league to play in where they will be up against teams that can match them in spending power £ for £, this would also be the best thing for Scottish football turning it from a 1 horse race into one of the most competitive leagues in the world at a stroke. (the same goes for Rangers, if they can ever fix their financial problems).
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But that’s never going to happen. Why would the big leagues invite them in? The big fish in the other leagues, where they have maybe 3-4 relatively strong competitors, will not idly accept a reduction in their chances of Champions League qualification just to let Celtic (or if they ever recover Rangers) in.
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Will this happen ? No. Celtic and their fans are quite happy with their status as top dog’s in Scottish football and who can blame them. Better to be the big fish in a small pond than try to compete with giant sharks in an ocean.
——————————————————————-
Are they happy though? Maybe the fans here can tell us what the feeling in Celtic park is these days? The hint of excitement that could be felt when AFC pushed the league into March last season was palpable. It all came to a crashing end in Celtic park unfortunately, but I felt a strong sense that Celtic fans too are crying out for a team to really push them.
tayred says:
Member: (170 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:59 am
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs.
——–All SPFL clubs recieve a cash winfall with celtics progress in europe…..Did they forget that?
Cluster One says:
August 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
The police scotland initiative could get a lot of phone calls the next time fans at ibrox sing up to their knees.How will they ensure perpetrators are brought to justice?
Will they take the SFA stance there were to many of them.
_______________________________________
The SFA “there are too many of them” stance is a pathetic, cowardly, weasel, deliberate smokescreen of an excuse as all they need to do is apply a sanction to the club/holding company as per the rules they introduced. No-one is asking the SFA to wade into a crowd and apprehend the perpetrators
Cluster One says:
Member: (261 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm
tayred says:
Member: (170 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:59 am
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs.
——–All SPFL clubs recieve a cash winfall with celtics progress in europe…..Did they forget that?
===================================
I would have expected Grant to mention this as well.
Unfortunately the amount received is simply dwarfed by the rewards the CL entrant can collect for themselves.
Of course, the point of debate should not be “do we want Celtic to do well or not in Europe” but rather “why are our competitions configured in such a way that Celtic doing well in Europe might be anything other than good for the whole of Scottish Football and all clubs”.
How did we get here in the first place and why is this not discussed by all our media experts rather than the short sighted dross we get of either “its good for all of scottish football” or “its not good for the other teams”, neither of which is entirely accurate IMO.
Cluster One says:
Member: (261 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm
——–All SPFL clubs recieve a cash winfall with celtics progress in europe…..Did they forget that?
——————————————————————
I believe if Celtic reach the league stage each SPFL club will receive £250,000. Celtic will get at least £12 million.
Yes, you could quite justifiably say the other clubs should be grateful to receive anything. But, what it doesn’t do is promote competition, in fact it just helps to destroy it. I think we all agree increased competition should be the ultimate goal of any sporting organisation. Yes, Ok, Celtic will have earned the money, the scale of it makes it all the more daunting though. Perhaps in a larger league such as the EPL £12 million is mere pennies. But imagine £12 million extra going to the same team in the SPFL every year!
The small clubs maybe don’t deserve £250k given this capitalist nirvana we live in. But if that is how Celtic for example wish to see things, just as an example, (again I honestly don’t mean this as an anti-Celtic thing – its the system that is so badly broken) then I would suggest nobody associated with them has any right to whinge about the quality of the opposition they face at home. The field is steadily moving further and further away from being a level one.
Cluster One says:
August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm
I am sure it is all relevant given Celtic will have larger running costs but the difference is £10-14m to Celtic for getting to the group stages against £250k per club.
Every little helps but when that £10-14m can be used to buy the best players from the clubs gaining £250k it really is like pissing against the wind.
By the quirks of history, west coast society and being rescued by the McCann Celtic are where they are in relation to the rest of Scottish football and folks have to live with that.
While the current arrangements persist then I wish them well in Euro competition.
However like many of those around the continent where domestic leagues are dominated by a handful of clubs and have seen those few clubs become more powerful due to UEFA’s self perpetuating financial reward system, I can see the day coming soon where such teams get hived off to a Euro League system so that more level playing fields can be achieved in the resulting ‘lower domestic divisions’.
Matty Roth says:
Member: (230 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Cluster One says:
Member: (261 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm
tayred says:
Member: (170 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:59 am
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs.
——–All SPFL clubs recieve a cash winfall with celtics progress in europe…..Did they forget that?
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I would have expected Grant to mention this as well.
Unfortunately the amount received is simply dwarfed by the rewards the CL entrant can collect for themselves.
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The amounts received,could be the difference in a club keeping hold of a player they would otherwise maybe have had to sell.And money recieved for doing nothing.I would take that all day long and cheer the one giving it to me all the way up the street.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (116 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm
Cluster One says:
August 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
The police scotland initiative could get a lot of phone calls the next time fans at ibrox sing up to their knees.How will they ensure perpetrators are brought to justice?
Will they take the SFA stance there were to many of them.
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The SFA “there are too many of them” stance is a pathetic, cowardly, weasel, deliberate smokescreen of an excuse as all they need to do is apply a sanction to the club/holding company as per the rules they introduced. No-one is asking the SFA to wade into a crowd and apprehend the perpetrators
=======================
Hugely frustrating isn’t it?
I agree the football authorities should take stronger action for repeat offences.
But I don’t excuse the police for not acting when there are “too many” as this just cannot be how laws are applied in the country.
The effect is any small group breaking the law will be hammered while large groups are allowed to continue without challenge.
Just not good enough IMO.
I am certain that with the required determination means to police large football crowds could be found. IMO they don’t have to charge EVERY culprit but identify and charge enough people to make an example each time we have large numbers of law breakers hiding in the anonymity of the crowd.
Why not simply stand at the side and video record them most vocal areas of the crowd, then identify culprits as they leave the ground after the game for example?
Cluster One says:
Member: (262 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:51 pm
The amounts received,could be the difference in a club keeping hold of a player they would otherwise maybe have had to sell.And money recieved for doing nothing.I would take that all day long and cheer the one giving it to me all the way up the street.
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True, but it’s not how an increasing number of fans see it I’m afraid. Take a look at some of the more partisan club forums and you will see what I mean.
Plus, the evidence would suggest that the same player you speak of will be lured away by the big team who now have £12million burning a hole in their pocket.
I actually thought this morning’s removed comment about Celtic was sad but would prefer that it is there to be read by all.
It represents an extreme point of view that some fans hold about the teams we compete with in our domestic games and I’m not sure censorship of views like this helps even if it was verging on trolling.
Maybe he just doesn’t want Celtic to get more revenue than the rest of us put together.
The Champions League and the qualifying thereof highlights and showcases the comparative economic decline recently faced by Celtic and it also affects all our other clubs.
There is no doubt that Celtic used to be a European giant and were funded in the top echelons of the game by their huge fan base.
Some still believe they are still European giants.
I think differently.
They are now more like a European dowager minnow who have been outflanked and left behind by the surge in TV money available to so many other clubs in the sexier leagues most of whom used to be “smaller” than the top Scottish clubs.
Its not just about fan base any more and Celtic and Aberdeen and others are no longer competitive when the same clubs who have become richer now compete for players in the international market that football is today and have deeper pockets.
Our performances in Europe for some time bear this non competitiveness out.
And unlike Celtic many of these now richer clubs don’t even qualify or particularly care about Europe and all its financial risks.
Add to that the current UEFA nonsense affecting us where bona fide champions get sidelined into ridiculous play offs before the season has even started while 4 clubs from the big boys get into the money spinning Champions leagues.
The reality is TV money apart Scotland has been further downgraded by UEFA to the boondocks in their Champions League system that protects the richest clubs and leagues.
Celtic are simply landlocked in both the Scottish and their own European declining spiral and in their quest to win through have no interest in losing revenue to any of the other Scottish clubs by any means and that includes sharing.
They need every penny and cent to keep competitive at their aspirational level.
They want to and need to stay the biggest fish in their proverbial shrinking pond even though business sense would deem a dominant 1 or 2 clubs as being not good for our long term league.
And irrespective of whether the blue team come back as before or not (and I believe their return will bring revenues to Celtic that they have been missing), Celtic are stymied until something radically changes because whatever they can glean is much less than others already have.
And the radical change is not the return of Rangers that is still frequently espoused by ignorant lamb munchers as the problem harking back to a glorious period that has gone forever – it is something much more radical and comprehensive.
Something way beyond our current administrators.
So I understand Celtic need to stay dominant for their business plan and to keep their fans happy.
I also know that this is a Catch 22 situation for us all because while Celtic stay so completely dominant at home the rest of our clubs have to manage playing for the crumbs in an annual procession for the silver knowing we are constantly outgunned by opponents who buy the best (and the cleverest) players from us all.
That is not a criticism of Celtic or Celtic fans who want their club to win everything, just a comment that other fans pound notes have almost always been second rate in Scotland just like Celtic fan’s have recently become in Europe.
That’s why my (grown up) kids have lost interest and wear Barcelona strips when they play 5 a side.
This is the kind of thing Regan et all should be dealing with.
So a daft comment from a troll opens up a debate about the bigger picture that doesn’t seem to be happening.
If we always do what we’ve always done …etc
Cluster One says:
Member: (262 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:51 pm
Matty Roth says:
Member: (230 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Cluster One says:
Member: (261 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm
tayred says:
Member: (170 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:59 am
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only seen a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs.
——–All SPFL clubs recieve a cash winfall with celtics progress in europe…..Did they forget that?
===================================
I would have expected Grant to mention this as well.
Unfortunately the amount received is simply dwarfed by the rewards the CL entrant can collect for themselves.
——————-
The amounts received,could be the difference in a club keeping hold of a player they would otherwise maybe have had to sell.And money recieved for doing nothing.I would take that all day long and cheer the one giving it to me all the way up the street.
==================================================
I’m not sure if you are implying other clubs and fans should simply “shut up and be grateful for what they are given” but that’s how this post comes across to me and its not really relevant to the points being made.
For one thing the money comes from UEFA, not from Celtic (which seems to be what you are implying).
And another not exactly “for nothing” its reward of sorts for the efforts of the league as a whole to produce a half way decent champion and get them into Europe. Unless you come from the school of thought that believes a club can be champion of a league in which it is the only performer.
But the bottom line here is we are talking about the disparity being created in our competitions, not about what crumbs the lower order should be grateful for.
Lets keep in mind that what allows Celtic to “give” this money to the rest of the SPFL IS the disparity that allows them to win a league at a canter every year.
Our biggest clubs wouldn’t be near as large if it wasn’t for cash disparity created, so having a sort of superior attitude about this won’t help.
Finloch says:
Member: (61 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 1:13 pm
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Good post Finloch, thought provoking stuff.
tayred says:
August 20, 2015 at 12:18 pm
Are they happy though? Maybe the fans here can tell us what the feeling in Celtic park is these days? The hint of excitement that could be felt when AFC pushed the league into March last season was palpable.
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I think you have a point there and IMO Celtic fans should acknowledge the parallels between income distribution to elite clubs and leagues in Europe and the rest – and a similar phenomenon in Scotland. If one isn’t right then both aren’t right. How to arrive at a fairer situation I don’t know.
One big obstacle re any Celtic fan acknowledging or expressing a desire for stronger competition is that is immediately leapt upon by certain fans, the media etc as a justification for railroading the Rangers Holding Company into the top division. Some fans would rather just avoid saying it than provding fuel for the apologists.
I would welcome strong competition from any team that uses its resources fairly and effectively within the laws of the game and the land to do so, whatever the team(s) may be.
Dare I say with Celtic winning 55% of the time and A.N.Other 45% 😉 😈
The Scottish football league is not much different to other leagues which have one or two dominant teams.
Matty Roth says:
Member: (233 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (116 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm
Cluster One says:
August 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
But I don’t excuse the police for not acting when there are “too many” as this just cannot be how laws are applied in the country.
I suggested previously that the whole section should be held back and made to provide proof of ID before being allowed to leave the ground , on the basis that they were suspected of committing a sectarian act . CCTV images could be used to identify the guilty and PS would already have ID info .The inconvenience caused would surely be enough to have the fans self-police and ensure no repeat . This to apply to all fans singing proscribed songs . We’ve allowed the Police to have these powers – may as well let them use them .
While still hopeful, for the credibility of Scottish football, that Celtic can get through to the group stages, I feel the reaction to the ‘disappointment’ of the first leg is a sign of the respect and sense displayed on the forum. For that reason, I support the efforts to move forward so that we can gain a louder, more public voice where this sort of pragmatic, reasoned discussion can take place as to how the structure of the game can be improved.
Apart from the odd poster, the reaction has been focussed on the right issue – how the game can be set up in Scotland and in Europe so that it can be perceived as a bad thing for a club to do well in external competition. This will NOT be discussed in the SMSM because their agenda is to split fans in tribal groupings (reaching the group stages is good for Celtic/bad for other scottish clubs) so that people keep reading, listening or calling to argue with and see the arguments of the other side.
Could this be the subject of our new thread (as requested by one poster!). I think it’s vital that this issue is brought to the attention of fans rather than allowing them to be led down the good/bad route by the press. I can’t really write such an article, but could someone do so clarifying why the issue of fixing CL income distribution is much more important for the game than hoping Celtic do/don’t make it through? Perhaps such an article could then be sent to fan sites of all clubs? Could a draft be published so others can tweak it before official release?
Apart from the fact that some Celtic fans won’t want to lose the advantage CL qualifying provides, this is such a non-tribal issue that SFM could really get some kudos from for suggesting a working model. If enough fans are talking about it, could it even break through into the SMSM (perhaps with some placed calls to phone-ins?).
I don’t know, but I was just so pleased with the overall reaction and what it says about this site that I thought we should find a way to use the progressive thinking and imagination we have on here.
“The Scottish football league is not much different to other leagues which have one or two dominant teams.” The problem isn’t that Scotland has one dominant team. The problem is that the domination is so large. All other leagues that have dominant teams have at least one or two others that can at least get close to competing with the top side. Due to the financial disparity in Scottish football this is not possible here.
Celtic will get a large wad of cash (at least £12m) if they qualify for the champions league. This alone is more than their closest rivals (for the league) turnover. Add in the income that they have from Scottish games, tv etc and Celtic have more financial clout than the rest of Scottish football combined. (ignoring Rangers due to them being a complete basket case at present).
Bawsman says:
Member: (194 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 2:14 pm
The Scottish football league is not much different to other leagues with one or two dominant teams.
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That’s kind of backing up the point that I have been making!
Once it reaches that state where one team is dominant, there rest of the league is basically left to rot. One team gets the national riches, and then moves on to Champions league where they can gorge themselves on its obscene riches.
Meanwhile the rest get tossed a token amount from UEFA for which they are supposed to feel grateful. Difficult to be grateful when you see all chance of meaningful competition vanish over the horizon.
Its a self-fulfilling hell. In exactly the same way the Old Firm dominance was a self-fulfilling hell. I can only see more and more damage being caused to all national leagues by this continued pursuit of pure money.
paddy malarkey says:
Member: (90 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 2:19 pm
Matty Roth says:
Member: (233 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (116 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm
Cluster One says:
August 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
But I don’t excuse the police for not acting when there are “too many” as this just cannot be how laws are applied in the country.
I suggested previously that the whole section should be held back and made to provide proof of ID before being allowed to leave the ground , on the basis that they were suspected of committing a sectarian act . CCTV images could be used to identify the guilty and PS would already have ID info .The inconvenience caused would surely be enough to have the fans self-police and ensure no repeat . This to apply to all fans singing proscribed songs . We’ve allowed the Police to have these powers – may as well let them use them .
==================================
There are a number of options I think.
Its not just CCTV that could be used, I was actually thinking of hand held camcorders which I have seen police use on fans of smaller clubs before. In fact I’ve seen people filmed by police at close quarters when simply (and quietly) walking to the ground before the game.
So what really grates is the suggestion the police are powerless when in other situations we see them using strong arm tactics if they want to. Like kettling fans, filming innocents they don’t like the look of or in other cases I have heard of entering a pub and removing the battery from every mobile phone if all the fans in the pub – because of suspicion of potential problem caused by just some of those fans. (and so anyone in the same pub as a potential trouble maker is treated as a likely criminal)
So I’m just not having the excuses for inaction on large crowds of sectarian singers.
Some interesting thoughts on clubs’ support, or otherwise, for Celtic progression in Europe and competitiveness of the league. I wouldn’t be unhappy if David Low’s vision of them competing in a pan-European league of some kind came to fruition. Clubs operating on budgets within a narrower range than currently would offer the chance of a more competitive top league in Scotland. The fact is though, that that’s not going to happen.
So no radical change in the short/medium/long term, let’s focus on the here and now – rather than hoping that Celtic are put out next week, if my club fancied itself as a challenger I’d want Celtic to get a tough group and hope they get a tough set of league games after each tie to weaken them for home league and cup games.
The clubs known as “diddies” are pathetic and unambitious though – they seem to want the benefits they believe that the two Glasgow teams’ fan base bring and you have to wonder whether they (the diddies) really want to be competitive.
To use fairly recent events as an example, instead of making the right decision and kicking Rangers out because Craig Whyte stole tax payers money to pay Rangers bills, they bent over backwards to keep half of their perceived cash-cow in the league. A perfect opportunity to remove a stronger competitor, and they bottled it. The other half of the duopoly either bottled it or wants a Rangers back to improve their income streams.
The clubs can’t blame either SPFL or SFA paid officers for this, they are responsible and there’s no reason to believe that they’ve the wit to deliver the progressive thinking that nawlite seeks.
Thumbs up to both Finloch @ August 20, 2015 at 1:13 pm and nawlite @ August 20, 2015 at 2:26 pm
tayred says:
Member: (174 comments) August 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm
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Doing away with seeded competitions and ‘Group Stages’ is the answer. Old fashioned home and away drawn out of a hat………..never happen but that would fix the game in 5-10 years and get the playing field more level.
Bawsman says:
Member: (195 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm
tayred says:
Member: (174 comments) August 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm
====================================================
Doing away with seeded competitions and ‘Group Stages’ is the answer. Old fashioned home and away drawn out of a hat………..never happen but that would fix the game in 5-10 years and get the playing field more level.
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I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with anything more! 😀
No seeding, no leagues. Good old fashioned into the hat and lets see what happens. It would be fantastic, every club has a chance of progressing with a kind draw, and yet every club has the chance to take on one of the massive names… romance of the cup and all that…
… and the best team would still win!
Bawsman says:
Member: (195 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 3:34 pm
tayred says:
Member: (174 comments) August 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm
====================================================
Doing away with seeded competitions and ‘Group Stages’ is the answer. Old fashioned home and away drawn out of a hat………..never happen but that would fix the game in 5-10 years and get the playing field more level.
==================================
A number of changes could be made to improve the competitiveness. Less seedings and a more knockout approach for CL would help if done right.
CL teams should not drop into EL when they fail.
Conversely I’d argue for the Europa League to actually have a league stage right from the beginning and get rid of these qualifying rounds. This would help boost smaller teams with more experience and small amount of cash. (this is what the Europa was supposed to do before it was quickly railroaded into something else)
Something else that should be scrapped is the transfer window. Which IMO achieves the opposite of it original intention – it was supposed to protect competitions but it just weakens all the smaller teams even more. (because big teams buy up and “bank” all the talent into large squads during the window just in case they need it – leaving smaller clubs with less talent to draw from)
blu says:
Member: (211 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 3:06 pm
The clubs known as “diddies” are pathetic and unambitious though – they seem to want the benefits they believe that the two Glasgow teams’ fan base bring and you have to wonder whether they (the diddies) really want to be competitive.
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I think you are being a bit harsh there. It depends what you would class as ambitious. I’m afraid finishing 3rd, or nowadays 2nd in the SPL is about as far as pure ambition could take any of these clubs given their resources. Sad, but there you have it. Unless of course you are seriously suggesting clubs should start to stretch their spending Murray style?
No club covered themselves in glory over the RFC/TRFC saga (well no, Raith Rovers stood their ground). No club came out as showing any great satisfaction in it either. But that aside – TRFC in or out it would make no difference to the situation we find ourselves in now. One very dominant club.
Lastly, despite what any of us think about RFC and the mess they got themselves into, simply kicking them out cos they could have wouldn’t have shown what I would class as ambition. But, certainly some ambitious plans could and in fact should have come out of the situation, with or without (T)RFC.
‘want the benefits they believe the benefits of the two Glasgow team’ fan base bring’. Could someone remind me what these are? And could you remind me when the other Glasgow teams folded?
Or was that just subconscious triumphalism?
Part of the problem i see is that other clubs simply dont believe they can beat Celtic. Of course Celtic pay more for better players, but that doesnt excuse a lack of belief. The rotten media forever tell us the game is mediocre and Celtic have no challengers, but its down to clubs to believe, to organise, to get lucky. I think Aberdeen did this last year.
I have high hopes that Hearts believe they can challenge on a game by game basis. I saw them beat St Johnstone and Motherwell and they have already won at Dundee and Ross County. Beat Partick on Saturday and who knows where belief can take you.
So for me its a double edged sword. i want Celtic to continue to play in Europe so that they might struggle more in the league, and a team (Hearts ☺) or another might realistically challenge them. Yet i dont really want Celtic to receive up to £20 million for competing.
I know about the coefficient but I dont particularly want to cheer on another team in Europe so they get considerably richer while the coefficient MIGHT improve in 5 or 6 years. All the while the wealth disparity grows.
Now that not Celtic’s fault. But i dont see why i, as a supporter of another team, i should hope they get richer. This blog isnt so much about supporting a particular club as it is about governance and the sport in general but we are all football fans. Splitting down those lines is natural.
Next year looks like it bring Rangers into the Premiership. We will then be told that thank god Celtic v Rangers is back, Scottish football is saved and Celtic finally have challengers. To hell with that.
So for me, belief is what its about. I dont believe Malmo think they are inferior to Celtic. I reckon they have a more than good chance of going through. Do they have more resources than Celtic? Im pretty sure they dont.
So i will continue to believe that other well organised, well coached teams can challenge. i dont want to accept third or second is the best on offer. i want to believe we can win.
Otherwise whats the point?
Just catching up from this morning. Thanks for all replies. A lot to think about there.
tayred says:
Member: (176 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 4:29 pm (Edit)
blu says:
Member: (211 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 3:06 pm
_______________________________
I think in many respects this highlights the existential dilemma inherent in modern football.
What is the purpose of our clubs? How do we (and they themselves) want to see them develop? Is it to chase European riches or is it to get back to looking after the communities which spawned them? I think there are half a dozen clubs in the top league whose ambition (like some EPL clubs as well) is just to stay in that division.
There are others whose ambition is merely to survive. Are we really in the business of patronising those clubs? Every club will have ambitions that are commensurate with their resources.
The CL matches, great atmosphere that they provide, are some very nice icing on the cake for me. When Celtic had their great successes in Europe, it was a different game. The resource differential in Scotland was not as great. Nor was the yawning chasm between the top European clubs and the rest in existence.
All clubs at that time had real, tangible connections to their fans; nowadays such connections don’t exist between the players and the fans (you wouldn’t believe the lengths some overpaid ‘heroes’ at CP used to go to avoid having to sign autographs or meet supporters); there is no effective fan representation or input to the clubs (save for the usual chocolate teapot ‘fan forum’ affairs that most clubs have in place).
Instead of blaming the inability of our nation to compete abroad (at club and international level), on so called ‘underachieving diddy teams’, maybe it’s time we looked fundamentally at how our own competitions and infrastructure fail to provide most our clubs with the wherewithal to (worst case) still be in international competition at the START of the season, and (best case) after Christmas.
In my opinion, Scottish football (and it’s English counterpart) is still populated by owners who are mostly post Thatcher spivs whose ambitions lie with short term aims disguised as goals.
Real ambition is to look long term and holistically at the state the game is in, how it got there, and aim to learn lessons from that before moving forward.
As far as I can see, there is little room for optimism that this can be achieved. Best evidence for that is that since the absence of Rangers fro the top flight, there has been no attempt or appetite to even have a conversation about voting procedures. I have my own ideas how the 11-1 nonsense prevails, and they are pretty much in line with the view most of us hold of the people in power. Three pound notes spring to mind.
If the best thing we ever do is start a conversation about this, we will have achieved much.
The Sports Direct Annual Report has been issued.
http://www.sportsdirectplc.com/~/media/Files/S/Sports-Direct/annual-report/Annual%20Report%202015%20-%20FINAL.pdf
It details that SD sales to Rangers Retail Ltd for 2014/15 were £3.834M. In 2013/14 the figure was £3.843M. That is just £9,000 down. So, in spite of the boycott, sales held up at the previous year’s levels.
The report also confirms that SD have 100% ownership of Rangers Retail Rights Ltd. However, the company has yet to post anything with Companies House, other than its incorporation documents.
The Herald has put the expected spin on the figures as being unfair on Rangers.
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13616932.Fresh_concerns_over_Mike_Ashley_s_Rangers_retail_deal_as_Sports_Direct_goods_figures_emerge/
If the club actually paid off the £5M loan to SD to get back to a 51% share of the profits, then actually started promoting sales, I think they could easily match the £3M annual royalty paid under the JJB deal.
Nice one Paddy M. I’d go even further and oblige the match commander to bring the game to a halt until the offenders are dealt with.
You know the talk of a new auditor; King cleared as fit and proper (again) this time by ISDX; another share floatation… is/was it all genuine? I mean, I can only think of reading about the King clearance and share floatation on PMGB’s blog, and can’t remember where I read of the ‘new auditor’, with no ‘official’ announcements or anything attributable to the board on any of the stories. Yet many people seem to have accepted it all with the usual caveats and the discussions have centred round the viability of raising £20m and would it be enough? At the same time, it could be seen as encouraging news for people as yet undecided on the wisdom of buying a season ticket – in lieu of any un-conflicted RRMs.
Has there been anything that could be described as an official statement from RIFC/TRFC, on any of the three developments? Or is it all just rumour, carefully placed in such a way that it creates a feel-good factor without leaving the board with yet more egg on their face should it all, or some of it, end up as a non-event?
Obviously PMGB isn’t involved in any way, other than possibly as the conduit to the wider audience of ‘good news’ rumours put out in the City where such rumours usually find ears to pass them on to journalists.
King, and or his people, wouldn’t be the first at Ibrox to use similar tactics, though I suspect King has used them to greater effect than most in his normal business deals and is possibly (though perhaps I am misjudging him) the one who knows how to best use the rumour mill to create a ‘company on the up’ aura to lure potential investors (or, in this case, co-investors).
None of the ‘rumours’, if that’s what they are, gave anything out as a ‘done deal’, just hints that something positive was happening. We know King is happy to give out the message that problems are well on their way to be being sorted, only for that to be seen as patently untrue once deadlines are passed.
Phil is now, with some justification, throwing cold water on the auditor story, and add to that the fact that it is now quite a few days since the ‘RIFC have/nearly have an auditor’ story broke, so, it would surely be reasonable to expect that when such stories break that they are very close to a conclusion, and that on conclusion they would be officially announced with great pleasure. Similarly, if there was any depth to the stories of King’s ‘fit and proper to fleece’ status and of the share floatation, something more concrete would now be in the public domain.
Perhaps there has been something more official from club sources that I have missed, and my apologies if that is the case to all and sundry, but I am always suspicious of good news being put about when it’s just left to grow wings without any confirmation, especially if no one (from the board) has put their name to it.
easyJambo says:
Member: (730 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 6:15 pm
The Sports Direct Annual Report has been issued.
http://www.sportsdirectplc.com/~/media/Files/S/Sports-Direct/annual-report/Annual%20Report%202015%20-%20FINAL.pdf
It details that SD sales to Rangers Retail Ltd for 2014/15 were £3.834M. In 2013/14 the figure was £3.843M. That is just £9,000 down. So, in spite of the boycott, sales held up at the previous year’s levels.
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I’m no accountant but if there is a buy back clause for unsold goods, then that indicates that almost the same value of stock was ordered in the boycott year of 2014/15 as was in 2013/14. The question is who bought it? Fans or RIFC/TRFC?
Happy to be corrected if wrong, of course.
Matty Roth says:
Member: (235 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 2:46 pm
paddy malarkey says:
Member: (90 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 2:19 pm
Matty Roth says:
Member: (233 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:55 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (116 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 12:35 pm
Cluster One says:
August 18, 2015 at 8:19 pm
But I don’t excuse the police for not acting when there are “too many” as this just cannot be how laws are applied in the country.
I suggested previously that the whole section should be held back and made to provide proof of ID before being allowed to leave the ground , on the basis that they were suspected of committing a sectarian act . CCTV images could be used to identify the guilty and PS would already have ID info .The inconvenience caused would surely be enough to have the fans self-police and ensure no repeat . This to apply to all fans singing proscribed songs . We’ve allowed the Police to have these powers – may as well let them use them .
————–
Re the above. just looking back,February 26 2015.
Bigots face the boot.
The SPFL chiefs were set to tighten their rules on sectarian singing at games.A hampden summit was scheduled for March 2015 to debate the then current regulations.
Did the SPFL come up with any tightening?
Jingso.Jimsie says: August 20, 2015 at 7:20 pm
I’m no accountant but if there is a buy back clause for unsold goods, then that indicates that almost the same value of stock was ordered in the boycott year of 2014/15 as was in 2013/14. The question is who bought it? Fans or RIFC/TRFC?
Happy to be corrected if wrong, of course.
=====================
We won’t know the answer to that question until RIFC/TRFC produce their accounts.
The “ordering” will have been done prior to the start of season 2014/15 so you would have to go back to the period of Somers, Nash and Wallace as the key people involved.
Given that Wallace was the one who alluded to the onerous contracts, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to assume that he tried to match the order with demand. Then again, nothing that any Board at RIFC does, surprises me any more.
Finloch says:
Member: (61 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 1:13 pm
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Football rivalry fuels many different viewpoints and outlooks on what is best for the game. I have no issue with whatever views people hold, but my main objection to the removed ‘well done Malmo’ post is I believe this forum is generally accepted not to be the place for such views. While the mods may not have made us sign a charter, most people seem to see this as a forum where more respect is shown to others than several others on the Internet. For anyone wanting to revel in Malmo’s last gasp goal there are many places on the Internet they will be more that welcome.
Personally I wish we were today talking whether Celtic, Aberdeen, ICT, and St Johnstone could all make their respective group stages, but it’s not to be. For the record I believe Celtic will still make it, but if they fail I don’t believe for a minute this place will be awash with joy from other fans. It’s not what we’re here for and together we’ll get there.
Thanks easyJambo.
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1168 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm
…
Phil is now, with some justification, throwing cold water on the auditor story, and add to that the fact that it is now quite a few days since the ‘RIFC have/nearly have an auditor’ story broke…
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IMO, the announcement of new auditors could be significant reality check.
It is highly unlikely to be another one of the Big 4, like Deloitte.
IMO, it will more likely be a small, unknown outfit.
There had been reports of concerns about staff safety, [by Deloitte ?], so which auditor would take on RIFC/TRFC with this known risk ?
And, unlike with the previous club 🙄 an association with TRFC and its related PR nightmare would definitely not be prestigious: the reputational risk might not be worth the audit or consulting fees.
Just how far down the ‘auditor league’ does RIFC/TRFC have to go to engage an auditor ?
Allyjambo says
August 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm
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Ally, purely on my knowledge gained from this blog, I would guess that any appointed auditor may only have agreed to have a provisional look under the bonnet. They may have set a time period to do this (let’s call it 120 days and 120 nights), during which time other events take over and the timer gets restarted. Again.
BP @5:38, that merits a double thumbs up. If we’re monitoring, introspection’s a necessity.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1359 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:01 am
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It’s a small point, but Hibs tanked them 9 v 3 on aggregate in the 1970 – 71 Fairs Cup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970%E2%80%9371_Inter-Cities_Fairs_Cup
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (354 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 11:40 am
motor red says:
Member: (25 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 10:31 am
well am with theres only one willie miller here
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I am sure that most Celtic fans are grown-up enough to take it on the chin, but your argument is extremely one-dimensional, and flies in the face of logic and observed behaviour.
Firstly, your logic, taken to its natural conclusion, would prevent you wishing success on any Scottish team in Europe for fear that their financial position would be to your disadvantage. As a Celtic fan I am therefore not offended by your thoughts, just a bit bewildered. The real way to deal with lack of competition is not to wish failure on Scottish teams in Europe (which is bad for morale all round), but to install a better redistribution model at national level.
Also, Celtic are already (if reports are correct) down £30m owing to the absence of a Rangers in the top division. Is that really affecting the relative situations of them and Aberdeen?
I am also a bit dismayed to find that we are not ALL in it together here 🙁
One thing that does set us apart from other sites is our respect for each other. The poster who sent his message of congratulation to Malmo (and by the way, I’d like to send my own congratulations to their wonderful fans for the noise and colour last night), was the same person who last week told us that the site was going downhill because the level of debate and flow of content was dropping.
Is this the level he wishes to raise it to? An ejaculatory “well done Malmo!”? Oh and by the way, even after his complaint about the lack of a new blog we are still looking for his reply to my invitation to provide one 🙂
He was in my opinion trolling, pure and simple – as when was last week when he had a go at the blog. He also has a track record when it comes to Celtic, and for the record, I don’t think he is a fan of Aberdeen.
Ordinarily that post would have been removed. Can anyone seriously imagine a post which expressed the same sentiment about any other Scottish team’s opponent surviving five minutes here? It most certainly would not, and the (very sheepish but nameless) mod on duty owes us all an apology that it wasn’t removed. It is now gone.
The substantive point that you make motor red, is worthy of discussion. I don’t agree with it at all, but I am sure you didn’t take any pleasure in the disappointing end (from a Celtic perspective) to the game last night.
Ianagain got it right – again. He was hoping for an uplift in the co-efficient, but correctly observed self-inflicted wounds from the Celtic team.
Even after that disappointment, as a Celtic fan, the atmosphere at the game (Zadoc and all) was
wonderful. That is something I would be glad to see back more often, not the malignancy of the OF.
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Blimey Big Pink, you are a sensitive chappy aren’t you.
If you would get out of your Celtic bubble, you would realise that the vast majority of non Celtic fans don’t want them to qualify for the CL group stages purely because of the enormous amount of money they would make. The Scottish league is already uncompetitive enough without one club getting another £12-15 million pounds a year.
As for your suggestion of a different way of distributing CL money, if Uefa tried that, the top clubs would be off to a European Super League in about 5 minutes flat.
Interesting article in Private Eye today viz a viz Aiden and Wulstan Early, Worthington and our very own CW.
Another comeback by Worthington underway funded by an ostensibly off the radar rich Greenland oil exploration outfit.
You cant keep a “fill in here” man down it seems.
Wonder if they still lay claim to the rights to switcheroo outfit Sevco the first.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Oh missed out some names from the article Douglas Ware = Worthington, Numa Minerals Paul Newman of same. Olympia trading group.
On anyones radar?
‘There’s Only One Willie Miller’….
StevieBC says:
Member: (823 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 8:31 pm
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1168 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 6:26 pm
…
Phil is now, with some justification, throwing cold water on the auditor story, and add to that the fact that it is now quite a few days since the ‘RIFC have/nearly have an auditor’ story broke…
===========================
IMO, the announcement of new auditors could be significant reality check.
It is highly unlikely to be another one of the Big 4, like Deloitte.
IMO, it will more likely be a small, unknown outfit.
There had been reports of concerns about staff safety, [by Deloitte ?], so which auditor would take on RIFC/TRFC with this known risk ?
And, unlike with the previous club 🙄 an association with TRFC and its related PR nightmare would definitely not be prestigious: the reputational risk might not be worth the audit or consulting fees.
Just how far down the ‘auditor league’ does RIFC/TRFC have to go to engage an auditor ?
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I took it as they don’t and wont get either one of the mooted ones judging by Phil’s publication of their “no comments”.
Unsure what happens next.
Willie
BP doesn’t live in a Celtic bubble.
Before we did the the Podcast thing he was at great lengths with me that we should steer clear of all things Celtic given Jim Craig was the guest. The plan was to concentrate on the well win. I probably didn’t give that enough welly. In fact we had both planned to give Jims stuff about Lisbon etc a right going over. The fact is we just missed our cues.
Give it a try. I’m sure BP would gladly have you on.
Its not so easy.
Totally OT. I have never understood why West Ham are getting such a good deal from the Tax Payer, State Aid and all that in heaps!. In fact, you could call it a ‘Furgin Disgrace’! 👿
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3187481/Fury-huge-bill-taxpayer-700million-Olympic-Stadium-deal-West-Ham-paying-just-15million-cost-converting-venue-football-stadium.html
dear big pink
it really is a sad state of affairs when you want the foreigners to win, yet the gulf between celtic and the rest is massive at the moment ,why would i want that gap to develope further? imagine a rich arab taking over the dons and pumping in 300million into the club,that would be the end game for every other club,which as it stands is pretty much what we have now anyway.on a more level playing field i would be happy for any scottish club in europe to go out and win, [apart from the masonic lot] i cant let go of that am afraid. but its the main governing body that has spoiled the game for not only us but celtic as well.i think my point stands.
Well as I missed the congrats malmo post I can’t really comment but I can certainly understand the desire for a more equitable distribution of funds from EC, although this will only bring Celtic down to match other teams level rather than, what we should be trying to do imo, raise the other team higher and closer to Celtics level.
FWIW still think Celtic will go through next week, saw enough form Celtic to suggest we can score a couple over there and that should be enough! Hopefully we can remember how to defend right enough 😛 😛
I don’t understand the delay in the next ‘Radio Show’. As I understood it they were trial runs, but they were pretty good in my opinion. What is the problem?
And please avoid this nonsense of trying to be so impartial that we can’t ask decent ex players like Jim Craig on and discuss tactics beforehand that you should avoid all things Celtic and concentrate on the Motherwell result. That reeks of SMSM.
Over time, there should be plenty of opportunities for ex players of every club in the land to be on the show.
I still think Mark Wilson would be a good guest but I’m prepared to wait twelve months until all other clubs are represented.
Big Pink, you are doing a great job. Stop worrying so much! There are so many strong posters on here who are not Celtic supporters that this site will never develop into a Celtic forum. Thank goodness.
macfurglymacfurgly says:
Member: (54 comments)
August 20, 2015 at 9:02 pm
It’s a small point, but Hibs tanked them 9 v 3 on aggregate in the 1970 – 71 Fairs Cup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970%E2%80%9371_Inter-Cities_Fairs_Cup
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Brilliant. Not a small point at all. That cheers me up no end. Thought Scottish teams were jinxed 🙂
The old Fairs Cup wasn’t on the lists I looked at. Nice to know that Hibs 0-9 misery (?) is bit off-set by that result annaw 🙂
Something must have happened in the 1970s because I remember watching Malmö against Forest in the European Cup Final. You can’t imagine that happening today to any team outside the few fat cat clubs. All I could find on their ’70s success was ‘Bob Houghton’ and ‘new tactics and training methods’. Certainly still punching above their weight. If I read the current figures correctly, the latest TV deal for Swedish clubs is about SEK 240m/year which is ca. £18m. In 2016 the winner of the 16-team top league gets SEK17m and 16th gets SEK9.7m.
BTW, what if the league decided that 10 of the 12 million would be pumped back into the clubs ,would i be backing celtic? of course i would. oh ,and if another celtic man comes on here with that condescending crap about us gaining 250 000 to your 12 million i think i will explode.
for many fans outside of glasgow am sure there are many like me on the verge of throwing the towel in on the game if something doesn’t change for the better very soon.
i will give it one more season after this,then its over me.
personally id love it if the diddy crowds just fella way out of sight the world over for that”s what it will probably take in order for some action to be taken when clubs can only afford semi professionals at best and the big clubs are winning by double figures,of course the problem with that is that most followers will have found another interest.
so congratulations to celtic on winning the league 2015-2016 and for many years to come no doubt and if no one can stop you,[ no laughing now] ,i hope you get your 10 in a row to rub the salt into the dead club fans.
motor red says:
Member: (28 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 6:55 am…………explode.
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They never knock it back,the £250,000
What’s with the way too many negative waves motor red?
The league this season could be a cracker. The Dons, Hearts and Dundee all have good teams and with Celtic having the distraction of the Champions League / Europa group stages to contend with, things could get very interesting.
If Celtic do get knocked out next week though, watch out for a lot of bleating about the unfairness of the qualification process, big European clubs looking after each other etc, etc.
For me, that’s identical to the situation old Rangers and Celtic served up on our game from say the formation of the SPL until the death of Rangers.
What’s the word for bittersweet irony again? Oh yes, schadenfreude !
jimbo says:
Member: (73 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 3:26 am (Edit)
I don’t understand the delay in the next ‘Radio Show’. As I understood it they were trial runs, but they were pretty good in my opinion. What is the problem?
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Jimbo,
The delay has been caused by the snafu in the premises thing. W had thought the idea of inviting people round to my house was over, but since we still have nowhere to live, we may have to rethink that. We may have an announcement to make on both situations very soon 🙂
Slight change of topic. The Kodi streaming platform was discussed a while back. Quite an animated debate going on in their timeline started by a few clarifying statements from Kodi:
Johnbud78 says:
Member: (14 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 1:54 am
Well as I missed the congrats malmo post I can’t really comment but I can certainly understand the desire for a more equitable distribution of funds from EC, although this will only bring Celtic down to match other teams level rather than, what we should be trying to do imo, raise the other team higher and closer to Celtics level.
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Eh?? I don’t get the logic in that one! Were Celtic guaranteed £12M at the start of the year, er no? So if Celtic were to get £2million and everybody else the share of the remaining £10million how does that bring Celtic down? They are £2million up on where they were.
Sorry, the tone of “bring Celtic down to others level” is dripping with that which we deride fans of the other side of Glasgows great divide. Everyone else is improving, some faster than others. Yet, if Celtic were to keep earning an extra £12million more than everyone else how the hell are we supposed to catch up!? Just stop and think of the levels of cash most Scottish clubs have to deal with! It’s like minimum wage versus the bankers – and the bankers don’t seem to understand why the rest of us are so p’eed off with them either.
Cluster One says:
Member: (265 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 7:25 am
motor red says:
Member: (28 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 6:55 am…………explode.
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They never knock it back,the £250,000
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Why should they, they earned it just as much a Celtic. A one team SPFL would save a lot of wasted time though.
I have said this before, and derided for it. I will say it again, and no doubt be derided for it again.
Celtic are bigger in financial terms than other Scottish football clubs because more people go to Celtic games, more people buy season tickets and more people buy official club merchandise. This has the knock on effect of getting better sponsorship deals etc.
If other clubs want to get closer in financial terms then the first place they should look at is themselves. They should look at what they can do to get more people coming to their games and as a result buying club merchandise. I’m afraid that if a club has an average home attendance of 3,000 supporters then that is what size the club is, in financial terms. It may have a glorious history, however the money coming in today is where it is financially.
As in all things, if you have a problem then look to yourself for a solution before you start looking to others, or blaming others. It really isn’t Celtic’s fault if you are not tapping your own market.
Bearing in mind, Celtic have exactly the same issues when competing in Europe, at least in the group stages of the two competition. Playing against opposition with far greater resources. The difference being that is not because of the fan base, it is because of the extraordinary amounts of money some of these clubs are getting through TV deals.
From an article in the telegraph dated 14th may 2014.
“The total paid out to the 20 competing clubs this season was £1.56billion, a 60 per cent increase compared to the £972million of television revenue the previous year.
United earned £89.1million in 2013-14 despite finishing down in seventh but the £60.8million they picked up as champions 12 months ago has been beaten by Cardiff, who received £62.1million.”
Cardiff received £62m, for nothing, just from the TV deal. That’s roughly the same as Celtic would expect to make as their entire turnover (in a season without CL group football).
Financially the gap between Celtic and the bottom teams in the EPL is every bit as big as that between Celtic and the other teams in the SPFL Premiership.
So, as much as i can understand why people may feel it is an unfair playing field can I suggest two things. First, look to yourself and your club for solutions before looking anywhere else. Second, I really do know where you are coming from. The club I support has exactly the same issues. We will not be competing in the final few stages of the CL any time soon. It doesn’t mean the fans can’t go and have great European nights supporting them.
I think to be fair Homunculus, there’s a two step process involved – short term and long term.
Clubs could “look to themselves” and effectively do a Chelsea or Man City (or Hearts or RFC* for that matter) to attain short term results assuming they can get a benefactor to fund it, or a bank to write it off. But even that won’t effect a long term shift in ‘clout.’ (sorry can’t think of a better word). That requires a generational shift in attitudes towards the game in general which simply can’t happen if the dominant player stays and indeed moves further beyond the horizon.
Now, as you state, that isn’t Celtic’s fault per se. In fact if anything one thing we probably could agree on here is that Celtic could never be accused of ‘lavishness!’
Of more concern to me personally is that when faced with a challenge to that dominant position (and I’m widening it here to that hated ‘Old Firm’ thing), there are clearly more than a few in our game, including all in positions of authority who take, doggedly pursue and feel absolutely no need to defend the outlook, using the Aberdeenshire descriptive, “Cos its aye been.”
dear cluster, am not in the position to reject charity but if i were 😀 .if kicking other supporters is your thrill cluster ,knock yourself out buddy theres nothing much about the game for me to get excited about these days, when cashed up clubs like almaty knock you out of europe. i mean almaty! like who the hell are they,you just know the gigs up.
mr rougvie i much admire your positive attitude but i could bet my house very safely on celtic winning the league and for the next 2-3 years. unless some sugar daddy appears over the horizon.your kidding yourself on if you think anyone else will win it,unless The deranged fc come up and king finds the key to his safe, i certainly never want to see that.
i can say this with quite certainty that nothing is going to change for the foreseeable future and that celtic will one day only be too happy to have managed to get out of the uefa group stage never mind champions league and i will probably no longer be a dandy making my way down the merkland road , i cant see the game ever returning to what it once was.
yip,the glass is half empty but who would bet against what i post?.sad but true.
motor red says: August 21, 2015 at 10:41 am …. and others
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The point about relative earnings has just been reinforced by Robbie Neilson at this morning’s pre match press conference.
Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug · 1m1 minute ago Edinburgh, Scotland
Robbie Neilson on possible title challenge: if you have a car worth 10k and someone has one worth 200k, who’s going to win race? #Hearts
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1361 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 8:28 am
‘…The Kodi streaming platform was discussed a while back. Quite an animated debate going on in their timeline started by a few clarifying statements from Kodi:..’
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DP, I have confessed many times to being an absolute numpty when it comes to Twitter, You Tube, and all the other media/communicatons “parallel universes”.(geez, I’ve hardly adapted to the loss of the old Home, Light and Third programmes! 😀 )
Essentially,can you ( or anyone else on this blog)answer the question:
is KODI kosher, legal, safe,and will it let me see the football games I would want to see, without cost to me or, indeed, cost to the football clubs which might not get my admission money?
I have a perhaps totally unfounded instinctive suspicion that the guys that run all these hi-tech media facilities are like the CGs and CWs of the world-utterly without scruple in the way they try to make a few million bucks.
Homunculus says:
Member: (210 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 10:17 am
I have said this before, and derided for it. I will say it again, and no doubt be derided for it again.
Celtic are bigger in financial terms than other Scottish football clubs because more people go to Celtic games, more people buy season tickets and more people buy official club merchandise. This has the knock on effect of getting better sponsorship deals etc.
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Humunculus, I don’t think anyone has any problem with that at all. Celtic (and if they sort themselves out) Rangers will always be bigger than the rest by dint of their fanbase. Absolutely, I have no real desire to change that. Of course it would be much better if my team could attract more supporters (and to be fair the support has increased markedly in size), but they will never get close to achieving 30k never mind 50 or 60k. Celtic (TRFC possibly) should always have that advantage, and therefore they should always win the majority of the time here in Scotland. Thats perfectly fair.
What some of us folks are concerned with is when the Euro money comes in. I assume all clubs that reach the Euro leagues get this £12million figure? In leagues such as Spain, EPL, Germany that probably gives teams a slight advantage over the others but given that they all have 4-5 clubs entering that competition it just maintains the competition within that group. I don’t think thats ideal, what about a thought to the rest of the league that these big clubs play in? But hey ho.
In Scotland, and I assume in other lesser leagues, 1 single team gets £12 million because only one team has entry to the Champions League. When £12 million is so far ahead of what the remainder of the teams turnover (I’d love to know the figures for lets say the premier league clubs), what is a slight advantage in the EPL becomes a massive and probably insurmountable advantage.
Personally I don’t believe that can possibly be good for the game. It’s not good for the chasers, and I find it hard to believe that Celtic fans would be anything other than turned off going to watch what would become such a one-sided competition?
motor red says:
Member: (28 comments)
August 21, 2015 at 6:55 am
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motor red, you accuse Big Pink of being over sensitive and then you post this?
With respect, if you could take your own advice and and retain some composure then you might be able to take time post a more thought through and constructive comment on these issues rather than reducing it to an “us vs them” mentality.