The “Lawwell Letter” is trending everywhere this week. To elucidate, it is email sent to (among others) Peter Lawwell and Eric Riley of Celtic on 26 July 2012 by SPL CEO Neil Doncaster.
The email came with an attached copy of the Five Way Agreement (hereafter “5WA”, the deal between Sevco, Rangers, the SFA, the SPL and the SFL). Now that it has been made public, it seems safe to speak openly about what it all means for us as folk who believe in sporting integrity.
I would preface my comments with a caveat though. On the face of it, the Celtic Chief Executive appears to have misled the gathering at the recent Celtic AGM. He was asked by a shareholder if Celtic were involved in the Five Way Agreement. Lawwell replied, “No”, and gave same “No” response to the follow up question, “have you seen it?”
Given that a copy of that email was in the possession of a few folk before that AGM, I have to admit to being surprised by that answer – although even more surprised at the apparent lack of due diligence implied by the lack of knowledge of its content.
We have attempted to contact Mr Lawwell to ask him if he would like to comment on the apparent discrepancy between the evidence and his answer (and I am sure we are not the only ones to have done so). To date, we have received no response. Given the complete lack of acknowledgement of the existence of this anomaly in the MSM, we should perhaps assume that none will be forthcoming.
Perhaps there is an explanation (yes I know), but Celtic should know, like Rangers old and new have come to realise, that silence on these matters breeds deep suspicion and distrust.
Assuming for the minute that Occam’s Razor applies here, there may be an uncomfortable truth emerging for Celtic fans – that Rangers (old and new) do not have a monopoly on dishonesty. There is also an uncomfortable truth that should emerge for Rangers fans too – that as we have said all along, this has never been about just Rangers, but about the governance of the game.
If the Celtic CEO did lie to the AGM a few weeks ago what are the consequences? He broke no laws as far as I can see. One insider I spoke to said simply this,
“So he lied. So what? What happens now? It’s irrelevant”
That is of course absolutely true. As long as controlling shareholders are happy that Resolution 12 is buried, and that no deep inquiry into governance is held into the workings of the game in Scotland, the lie is nonpunishable, though it would be a mistake to believe that accountability is confined only to the corporate rules governing Boards and shareholders; the corporate veil of “I was only following company policy” can be readily challenged in the court of public opinion, which has no statute of limitations.
What all this demonstrates of course is that Celtic have been saying one thing to their fans and shareholders, nodding agreement in private meetings about how appalling Rangers behaviour was, tut-tutting over how amateurish the authorities were, and wringing their hands in frustration at what a sham the LNS inquiry turned out to be.
At the same time, they have done nothing, allowed small shareholders to spend not inconsiderable suns progressing the matter, and quietly hoped that the “appetite” for justice would diminish so they could get back to whatever it is they and the rest do when subject to little or no scrutiny.
Whilst ten in a row is on the table of course, they can get away with it. To Celtic fans right now, understandably, nothing else matters. But what if TIAR is derailed? Not a stretch to imagine that the Parkhead kitchen could get uncontrollably hot in that circumstance. And when the TIAR squirrel finally ends its scurry, in either success or failure, where will the fans attention be diverted?
Perhaps the arrogance that permits making (allegedly) false statements to a general meeting, and (allegedly) misleading shareholders over Res 12 is borne of the knowledge that the parachutes are ready to be deployed when either of the above scenarios come to pass? If TIAR is achieved or goes south, are they already prepared for an emergency exit?
Celtic have two major shareholders whose combined holding is over 50% of the club’s shares. Dermot Desmond and Nick Train. Desmond is now in his eighth decade and Train is reportedly having some business difficulties. Both may well be moved to get out anyway, but fan unrest would make their decision a whole lot easier.
And Lawwell himself is – if you believe the MSM – on the wanted list of nearly as many top clubs as Alfredo Morelos.
The foregoing of course is extremely “Old Firm” centric, and as the two biggest clubs in the country they certainly have the biggest impact on the game, culturally, socially and financially. However there is no get-out clause here for others.
We KNOW there is evidence of fraud surrounding the licencing issue in 2012. We KNOW there is evidence of a cover up over that, and the EBT-related registration issues for Old Rangers. We KNOW that the Five Way Agreement was signed by football authorities in the knowledge that it would rob their own rules of judicial authority with regard to compliance by RFC prior to 2012.
We also know that NOT ONE club has taken a meaningful stand against any of it.
Clubs are saying one thing to supporters and doing their best to derail those supporters’ efforts on the other. We can also infer (not unreasonably) that the folk who run the clubs think that we as fans have no right to interfere in how they run their operations.
As I said earlier, Celtic can do what they like whilst TIAR is live, but afterwards, however it ends, the fans and shareholders involved in Res 12 will still be asking questions. Celtic in particular know how fatal it can be to alienate their own fan base – a fan base that has flexed its muscles with devastating effect for the boardroom in the past. And it is the wrath of the fans of all clubs that will eventually see the charlatans get their just desserts.
Our job as fans is to continue to hold those who care little for the honour and beauty of football to account, to continue to press them on their refusal to deal with arguably the biggest sporting scandal in Scottish history.
The bottom line (which is of course what the folk in boardrooms care about) is this. They need us far more than we need them. As fans of different clubs, the sensibility of those of us at SFM recognises that the real battle, the real war, is not between rival fans or rival clubs, but between the arrogant, self-entitled clique who run our game; who lie for fun, who cheat and belittle the sport; and the good folk who make it possible for the game to prosper.
Resolution 12 is not just about Rangers – nor is it just about Celtic. It deserves to be embraced by every true football fan in the country. The Res 12 franchise needs to widened
Sooner or later the fans will demonstrate their unhappiness with the money men. They did it in 2012, and they will inevitably do so again.
Ex Ludo 7th April 2020 at 14:10
'…Was the TV series not better because it was in black and white and more evocative of the 1930’s and ‘40’s gangster movies? ..'
$$$$$$$$$$$
Undoubtedly!
It also was in faux-documentary/newsreel style, with the famous Walter Winchell as the narrator.
And, of course, when I was of boyhood picture-going age (to the 'Black Cat' on Springfield Road, the 'Three Ps' [Parkhead Picture Palace] on Tollcross Road, and the 'Granada' on Duke St just down from Parkheid Croass), many of the films were of the 1940s and indeed '30s.[The original 'King Kong' was made in 1931, and my pal Podgy's da worked in the Arcadia at Bridgeton Cross and let us in for nothing through a fire exit, in about 1952!]
Mr Johnsto does himself no favours, what ever anyone thought of him or anyone knows what he may have done, he opens his mouth and any thoughts anyone had of him are proved right.
Cluster One 7th April 2020 at 12:43
I think the Alastair Johnston story is just a deflection from the wage cut story coming from ibrox.
===============
I'm not so sure. Johnston is definitely put on a pedestal by the Scottish Media. I have my own views why that is. I could best sum it up by saying that certain people, from certain backgrounds, who are members of certain fraternal organisations are viewed as superior, no matter their past wrongdoing. David Murray is another perfect example of that. In terms of the 'asterisk' Johnston referred to, I have long believed the type of people I refer to will actually win the day on that one. Just like they won the day on 'same club', 'going for 55', and a complete whitewash of the fact Rangers won many trophies with illegally registered players.
The groundsman at Portland Park in Troon appears to have reseeded the goalmouths; a sure sign that the season has ended.
A wee aside for a spring evening:
http://troonfootballclub.co.uk/pele-at-portland-park/
Essential repair work on the £brox pitch going on seems it will take 4 weeks let us hope they are not using any of those workers that are being furloughed then.
What we're up agin – from The Guardian .
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/apr/07/jose-mourinho-and-tottenham-players-break-coronavirus-rules-to-train-ndombele-sanchez-sessegnon
shug 7th April 2020 at 20:10
Essential repair work on the £brox pitch going on seems it will take 4 weeks let us hope they are not using any of those workers that are being furloughed then.
=======================================================
Planting a few veggies for a wee bit o' extra income Shug.
…… They've been loading the park with plenty manure since the new year. ….World class tomatoes for the breakfasts will reduce overheads.. When the Big Liar told Park D'Bus to fill the terraces with cabbages, he mis-understood the exact nature of chairing the "small-holdings" company.
That's what led to the Japanese Jock pulling his £20m out. Park D'Bus told him it was a greenfield site, and it only had planning permission for a wee wall. He then tried to tap him for wan point three million.
Admittedly somewhat of current topics, but here we go!
I guess the bloggers will be spending sometime debating the ramifications of the outcomes of current SPFL/SFA discussions regarding the future of season 2019/20 – and beyond – so just before we do, I took a nostalgic trip down memory lane via You Tube/ Pathe News (fantastic!), and for some reason (memories of Cathkin Park?) checked out some of Third Lanark’s former players. What a list in the context of Scottish Football History! Here are some (to jog a few memories?) – with apologies for any glaring omissions.:-
Bobby Evans (Celtic), Sammy Cox (Rangers), Joe Davis (Hibs), Billy Houliston (Queen of the South), Duncan McKay (Celtic) Jimmy Mc Mullan (Wembley Wizard), Ally McLeod, Willie Redpath (Motherwell), Alex Venters (Rangers), Jimmy Walker (Hearts), Tommy McInally (Celtic), Drew Busby (Hearts), Ronnie Simpson (Celtic), Evan Williams (Celtic), Maxie Murray (Rangers).
Had a tear in ma eye at the end of it!
bect67
You missed Findlay McGillivray ?
https://images.app.goo.gl/WW7R2u5iioXtqoU8A
Is this Sked at it again? From the 'Scotsman online' this morning:
"..How Rangers could make a near £5m profit on Ianis Hagi in a transfer involving Real Madrid
The Romanian ace has been linked with a move to the Spanish giants'"
I've just hunted through the main Spanish football papers,
https://www.football-espana.net
https://www.spainenglish.com
https://spainsnews.comhttps://en.as.com
https://www.marca.com/en/football/spanish-football.html
Not a dickie bird about TRFC / Hagi.
Could it be that our Joel has better football journalistic skills and contacts than the Spanish journos?I doubt it.
I don't know Sked from diddly squat, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that anything he has to say is founded on independently verifiable fact!
Big Pink 8th April 2020 at 12:00
https://images.app.goo.gl/WW7R2u5iioXtqoU8A
——————————————————————–
and no such thing as image rights back then I imagine BP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k
The Lowland League has put out a statement that 68 clubs have applied to join the new WOSFL
http://slfl.co.uk/pyramid-statement-3/
The 68 will consist of the 63 current members of the West Juniors, plus five other sides, three of which have gone public, Glasgow University, Drumchapel Utd and Bonnyton Thistle. The identity of the two other applicants is not known. Bonnyton is already a member of the SOSFL but, being based in Kilmarnock, the WOSFL application makes sense.
Meanwhile up North, the local press is reporting that discussions between the Highland League, the North Caledonain FA and the North Region Junior FA are ongoing and could see a feeder league to the HL established at Tier 6.
Fort William better beware.
This follows a couple of articles in the Inverness Courier, last week, about the NCL wanting to join the pyramid, and (separately) four new clubs having applied for NCL membership.
It looks as if grass roots football at the bottom of the pyramid is flourishing.
Now if only they were able to play some games. ……………………….
Thanks BP – every day a school day on here!
I think he was the right back 'no asterisk' Rangers signed and never played in the first team.
There was no truth in the rumour of the time that he was signed to weaken the opposition.
I forgot to mention the memorable forward line of:-
Goodfellow, Hilley, Harley, Gray and McInnes.
That's me dun!!
John Clark 8th April 2020 at 12:18
Is this Sked at it again?
From the 'Scotsman online' this morning: "..How Rangers could make a near £5m profit on Ianis Hagi in a transfer involving Real Madrid…
=========
JC, yes this guy has plenty of 'previous' for copying/pasting absolute Ibrox related nonsense.
He's just another Skedmark on SMSM sport journalism, IMO.
League(s) statement.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-clubs-to-vote-on-curtailment-of-ladbrokes-s
Sked and Parallel Universe FC* Is there no reality check in place for this kind of nonsense?
Next headlie, sorry headline : “New Financing Strategy Unveiled – Rangers* To Invest In The National Lottery This Weekend – Club anticipates £30M win”
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath
Co, that’s Doncaster – in a long winded way – stating he has decided not to make a decision on the SPL.
…until told what to do by UEFA.
Quelle surprise!
What would anyone expect for a £388K salary?
We don’t need exorbitantly expensive ‘leadership teams’ at either the SPFL or the SFA,
just reasonably competent administrators.
Did Alastair Johnston ever get passed as fit and proper to participate in Scottish football?
If not, then why is the SMSM deeming him fit and proper to opine on important Scottish football matters?
Should it not actually be Alastair Johnston* ?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Corrupt official 8th April 2020 at 14:21
League(s) statement.
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-clubs-to-vote-on-curtailment-of-ladbrokes-s
========================================
Extract from the statement (the meaningful bit)
What the SPFL has proposed is a single vote on a number of proposals, together with a carrot of reconstruction if the vote goes through.
There really should be separate votes on:
* Calling the league now.
* The method of calculating final positions
* The determination that there will be promotions and relegations
* The cancellation of all play-off games
The key one as far as Hearts is concerned is actually the cancellation of the play-off games. That makes both Hamilton and St Mirren safe, should the Premiership go down the same route, while multiple clubs in lower leagues will be similarly "saved". The clubs losing out on potential play-off opportunities will also be impacted, including those in the Highland and Lowland Leagues.
The possibility of talks on reconstruction is a means of getting clubs who will be disadvantaged by the above proposals to actually vote for them.
The SPFL Board should be providing more information on their current thinking on reconstruction, so that an informed decision can be made.
easyJambo 8th April 2020 at 15:15
Re the “League(s) statement” I took this to be a done deal already agreed with the major players – the ‘one vote’ arrangements being based on an unofficial guarantee that the leagues would be reconstructed to effectively negate Premier/Championship relegation this season.
My guess – the Premier league would be increased to 14 with the top two in the Championship promoted. This would cascade so that we ended up with a 3 league structure with 14 teams in each.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
‘John Clark 8th April 2020 at 12:18
Is this Sked at it again? From the ‘Scotsman online’ this morning:
“..How Rangers could make a near £5m profit on Ianis Hagi in a transfer involving Real Madrid
The Romanian ace has been linked with a move to the Spanish giants'”
#############################
It’s Aidan Smith’s byline in the Herald. He states Spanish website Don Balon is reporting this:
https://www.donbalon.com/
I can’t see the story on the splash page, so I went to the Real Madrid-specific page:
https://www.donbalon.com/futbol/equipo/real-madrid
I can’t see it there, either.
I used the ‘Buscar’ (search) function: no luck there either using both ‘Hagi’ & ‘Rangers’ (sic) as search terms. I’m not saying that the story isn’t on the website; if it is, it’s not easy to spot. Can anyone else find it on Don Balon?
BTW, Mr. Smith uses the word ‘ulustrious’ in his piece. Whit?
the latest Statement O'Clock
by Rangers Football Club
Wednesday, 08 April 2020, 16:00
CONSIDERING the current circumstances and increased speculation surrounding the ongoing impact of the Coronavirus pandemic on Scottish football, we felt it is incumbent that we provide clarity in relation to our position.
For the avoidance of doubt, Rangers firmly believe that the 2019/20 season is only complete when all 38 games have been played to a finish.
Nevertheless, we are conscious of the ongoing financial hardships faced by many clubs within the Scottish game. No business is immune from the impact of Coronavirus and we were proud of our players and senior staff’s voluntary decision to defer their wages to ensure job security for their colleagues at Ibrox. Furthermore, many clubs urgently require financial support to maintain cash flow and allow them to survive this current impasse so they can return to normal business when the current government lockdown is relaxed. It is important to recognise that these clubs across all the leagues are now in a financially precarious situation.
As a club, Rangers will immediately propose a member’s resolution which would release prize money to be distributed to all clubs throughout Scotland urgently. We believe that this is the priority in the present circumstances. It is vital to show respect for all clubs across the Scottish game, regardless of league position or financial standing. We must work together with a unity of purpose for the betterment of the Scottish game.
We are also acutely aware of other issues which are less pressing but, are forming key parts of the football narrative in Scotland. Nothing is more important than protecting the future of every club in Scotland as we are cognisant that this has a direct impact upon people’s livelihoods. It is abhorrent that certain clubs could be unfairly relegated if the current SPFL proposals were implemented. We must future proof the Scottish game.
Any restructure of the SPFL or other solutions to the current impasse must be afforded time to scrutinise in detail and consider all options. The consequences of forcing through change without due care and attention will have severe consequences for the Scottish game.
Scottish football must work together for the common good of every club, their staff and supporters. Any attempts to railroad changes to existing rules or run roughshod over corporate governance will be opposed in the strongest possible terms. We must allow decisions to be made in a rational, fair and balanced manner.
In the meantime, we expect clubs to support our member’s resolution which will provide financial support to those who need it most.
the latest Statement O'Clock
They really know how to gather friends along the way, eh?
Every statement needs to have a threat in it. Bluto out of Popeye always comes to mind when you read this stuff , although Bluto was a bit stronger in the sentence structure department.
redlichtie 8th April 2020 at 16:10
easyJambo 8th April 2020 at 15:15
Re the “League(s) statement” I took this to be a done deal already agreed with the major players – the ‘one vote’ arrangements being based on an unofficial guarantee that the leagues would be reconstructed to effectively negate Premier/Championship relegation this season.
===============================
Going by the statement, there is no “done deal” on reconstruction.
If the resolution is approved, the SPFL has also committed to consulting with Clubs over the possibility of League restructuring ahead of Season 2020/21.
Lots of ifs and buts in the above. If I was a betting man, then I think that reconstruction would be possible, but not necessarily probable.
Take the position of Ross County, Hamilton and St Mirren should the Premiership be ended on the same terms as that proposed for the other divisions. The proposal would see them all safe from relegation, either directly or through the play-offs, so they will certainly support it. However, when it comes to reconstruction, why would the vote for what would be a dilution of prize money next season with a larger league, the possibility of 3/4 teams being relegated, and the loss of a guaranteed 3rd home game against Celtic or Rangers.
I am bound to make one observation about the SPFL’s Board proposals. Hamilton, Alloa and Brechin all have representatives on the Board. All three teams would avoid the possibility of relegation should there be a vote in favour, and the process is extended to the Premiership.
On relegation, it’s worth noting that after 30 games last season (the same point as we are at) St Mirren was bottom of the table. They didn’t get relegated, as Dundee contrived to end the league 11 points adrift, and that was over just eight games.
I don’t know how this will play out, but if there is no reconstruction, then I can see one or more clubs seeking an interim interdict to prevent the SPFL putting its proposals into effect. It’s unusual for me to be agreeing with bits of a TRFC statement, but they are correct in stating “It is abhorrent that certain clubs could be unfairly relegated if the current SPFL proposals were implemented.”
That’s the case for Hearts “defence” although, on the park, they haven’t shown themselves to be particularly competent over the course of the season.
"The consequences of forcing through change without due care and attention will have severe consequences for the Scottish game.
Scottish football must work together for the common good of every club, their staff and supporters. Any attempts to railroad changes to existing rules or run roughshod over corporate governance will be opposed in the strongest possible terms. "
Now where could possibly I find conclusive empirical evidence to support these statements?
The lack of self-awareness is just staggering.
Scottish Football must suffer from amnesia….
“…It is vital to show respect for all clubs across the Scottish game…”
==========
Coming out with such brazen BS like this just reminds everyone why The Rangers is such an utterly detested club/company.
The sooner it goes the same way as Rangers, the better, IMO.
John Clark 8th April 2020 at 12:18
Is this Sked at it again? From the ‘Scotsman online’ this morning:
“..How Rangers could make a near £5m profit on Ianis Hagi in a transfer involving Real Madrid.
….
A £5mill profit on a guy they have on loan.
I don’t know how they will do it, must be some kind of strange ibrox magic.
……………..
That ibrox statement, Wow! just wow, how desperate are they for the prize money and getting out a statement as if they are doing other clubs a turn.
………………
we were proud of our players and senior staff’s voluntary decision to defer their wages to ensure job security for their colleagues at Ibrox.
………….
was it a 100% deferal of wages or 50%, they don’t let it be known.
……….
Scottish football must work together for the common good of every club,
…..
Begging for help if they run out of money.
…………
Footnote.
An ibrox club does nothing for no one, they look out for no one except themselves.
EJ
If I’m County, St Mirren or Hamilton I insulate myself from dropping the 3rd Sevco Celtic game by improving the chances of staying up longer term, ie by voting in 3 * 14 for a minimum of three years or more. What is proposed (other than the premiership body swerve – what another generation might have correctly identified as “shat it”) – is to go ahead as we were and we’ll maybe think about a change later.
Personally I’d abstain and get every other club to do likewise. I’m not voting away the previously hard won play off opportunity now just because Sky say they won’t play ball in the future, particularly since their concerns will involve two clubs and two clubs only. Personally I’d get a commitment (or confirmation of their failure to commit) from them now and put out a draft reconstruction alongside it. Only then would I ask clubs to commit to voting on the first part.
can I get my £388k now? I don’t mind furloughing for it!
The Sevvies love a' that rabble-rousing pish.
But!……For the record, they intend to use their democratic voice in the voting system, to award themselves 2nd spot in the league, and collect the appropriate prize fee for that position. That is acceptable to them.
What they say, has no importance when standing beside what they do of their own free will.
Had reconstruction to a 14 team top tier and no relegation been part of the proposals, then going to a single vote on a package of measures, I would have expected Hearts to vote for it.
Instead, by separating it for the rest of the proposals, it suggests to me that the SPFL Board isn’t exactly keen on reconstruction. It will now require a separate vote requiring at least a 9-3 vote of premiership clubs to put it into effect, which IMHO is far less likely to happen.
I thought TRFC was championing " null and void " ? No prizes or prize money , all results expunged from records (including European ) , restart from where we were last August . Nobody gets relegated , not even abhorrently . ( I fear we may be heading towards the mirroring of language used in Norn Irn political statements , with a lack of understanding of the meaning and usage of words ).
easyJambo 8th April 2020 at 18:20
Do the rules not say that there has to be a clear season for a new structure to be put in place anyway.
So even if it was agreed just now it would be the 2021 / 22 season before it took place.
I don't know if that's the case, it just rings a vague bell with me.
the latest Statement O’Clock
……………
It is back to… Club Statement.
EJ
Which is why I think they’ll need to incentivise the reconstruction to make it worth the 9 Clubs voting yes’ while.
i agree, essentially 11 clubs of the cabal do want it called with Hearts the only no-voter for obvious reasons (I’m ignoring Sevcos apparent concern to corporate governance). But as I’ve said all along if the reason for that viewpoint is a basic addiction to the opioid effect of old firm attendances then fine, let them come out straight and say that. And then see the effect on those attendances going forwards.
One other thing that hasn’t been clarified in relation to the proposals is the play-off between Club 42 and the HL/LL play-off winners.
The SPFL have unilaterally proposed that there will be no play-offs, i.e. Brechin will be saved. However, the SPFL rules state that the Pyramid Play-off rules can only be achieved by agreement between the SFA, SPFL, HL and LL.
From the SPFL’s own rules:
Annex 9 – I(c)
Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SPFL, SHFL and SLFL prior to it becoming effective.
That looks as if the SPFL’s proposals could be deemed “ultra vires”, therefore subject to challenge by the HL / LL.
Of course, the HL / LL could use the situation as a bargaining tool to facilitate the automatic relegation of Club 42 in future years.
From the Guardian and topical .
“What’s the latest that the entire season of a league has been cancelled and annulled (before 2020)?” wonders Yes, That’s A Twitr on, um, Twitter. “Did any leagues get halfway into an ultimately annulled season? 3/4 of the way? 80% of the way? Has there ever been a season that was completed and *then* annulled?”
Alex von Fintel supplies a highly comprehensive and very possibly unbeatable answer. “The 1922 German football championship, the 15th edition of the competition, saw no champion determined after the first final ended in a 2-2 draw and the replay in a 1-1 draw,” he writes. “Hamburg were initially awarded the title because the other finalist, Nuremberg, had been down to seven players through injuries. In the break of the extra time of the replay one Nuremberg player decided he couldn’t carry on, bringing his team below the required number of eight players on the field.
“Hamburg was awarded the title but Nuremberg successfully protested – the referee should have blown to start the second half of extra time and then immediately blown his whistle to abandon. Hamburg understandably launched a counter-protest and were awarded the title – but then declined the championship, probably under pressure from the football authorities. So the 1921–22 season was effectively abandoned 0.1 seconds before it would have finished – and it really was the ref’s fault.”
There have been famous cases of league titles being stripped from clubs for reasons of corruption after a season has been played. Marseille in 1992-93 and Juventus in 2005-06 were both denied the title with differing decisions taken on what happened to the trophy. PSG, despite finishing second, did not accept the French title while Internazionale did in Italy. But Alex’s suggestion may take some beating.
Came across this heading from The Scotsman (page not found when I went to check it out!):-
"SPFL clubs will be asked to vote on voiding (eh – whit huv a missed?) season or calling it due to the coronavirus crisis".
As for Sevco's response to today's meeting, I think this headline (admittedly from The Celtic Star – slightly biased!?) summed it up perfectly:-
Surrender or We'll Cry.
'nuff said.
I was in a work meeting this morning and one angry colleague demanded a resolution be passed immediately that everybody could go to the toilet. Didn't take my colleagues and I long to work out whose bladder was about to burst.
Ok; hopefully I have interpreted this correctly:
As a club, Rangers will immediately propose a member’s resolution which would release prize money to be distributed to all clubs throughout Scotland urgently. We believe that this is the priority in the present circumstances. It is vital to show respect for all clubs across the Scottish game, regardless of league position or financial standing. We must work together with a unity of purpose for the betterment of the Scottish game.
Can we take from this statement that 'as a club, Rangers' are proposing that all prize money is distributed to all clubs urgently throughout Scotland? I for one would support this. (If this is the proposal). There is circa £25m to be distributed. There are 42 clubs (ok – I'll stand corrected as I've assumed this encompasses the SPFL, the Championship and the lower leagues 1 & 2) that share the distribution. Are TRFC saying that each club should receive change of £600k each? This proposal is faultless and absolutely shows respect for all clubs across the Scottish game. I'd go a bit further, distribute £500k each and pass the change off as a charitable contribution to those clubs striving to survive out with the top tiers.
stifflersmom 8th April 2020 at 21:31
"I've assumed this encompasses the SPFL, the Championship and the lower leagues 1 & 2)"
As I understand it there is only one league, The Scottish Professional Football League (SPFL).
That is made up of The Premiership, The Championship, League 1 and League 2.
The prize pot is split as a percentage of £25m, depending on where a club places within the 42 team structure.
Which if anything supports your position, one league, one prize pot.
If they want the second placed prize money but don’t want celtic to be awarded the title as in their eyes celtic could be caught.
But in the third place club eyes could they state the rangers could be caught and release a statement.
We don’t want the rangers to be awarded second place price money etc.
" We must work together with a unity of purpose for the betterment of the Scottish game", says the lying , hypocritical new club.
Well, the single biggest step they could take "for the betterment of the Scottish game" would be to acknowledge publicly that RFC of 1872 ceased to exist in 2012,
and that TRFC is a club that was newly admitted into Scottish Football in 2012: and has been falsely living on the name and sporting achievements of RFC of 1872.
That would let truth and honesty back into the game as far as TRFC's place in the game is concerned.
The SFA would still of course have to open up a full investigation into how the dead club , apparently unentitled, was slipped a few million quid some years while it was still alive, and into the question as to whether any officers of the SFA may have been party to a criminal offence.
We would like to nail any such officers, to clear the dung out of the Hampden stable, and see condign punishment inflicted.
Homunculus
In essence, your clarification edifies 'their' proposal. It's now time that they uphold their statement and endorse it, such that it's less confused and more comprehensible.
Scottish football needs a strong Scottish football, as much as it needs a strong Arbroath.
Cluster One 8th April 2020 at 21:59
Well , presently Motherwell and Aberdeen could catch TRFC .
There are a couple of problems with signing young Hagi for 4.5m then immediately selling him to Real Madrid for 8.5m and pocketing a cool 4 m for doing the square root of heehaw . The first one is obvious , for a club* that can't afford to pay the squad wages rustling up 4.5 m might be a but tricky and secondly young Hagi doesn't have to sign for Rangers* . They only have first option to offer him terms for an agreed fee to his parent club . Only a very foolish agent would suggest he signs a contract at Ibrox and then negotiates a deal at Real. If the interest from Real is well …real , and I must admit to being just a tad sceptical about that then they will discuss matters with his agent . Of course it's great to suggest that the Ibrox based club* has 4m just sitting waiting to be picked up especially if you are a lender of last resort who has a loan due for approximately ….. 4m .
As others have already pointed out , today's statement when laid bare (or should that be bear) is an acknowledgement that the Blue room is now reminiscent of old Mother Hubbard's Cupboard. Even with the lower paid earners on the Furlough scheme and an unknown percentage of wages from the high earners deferred it will be a massive struggle to meet the April wage bill. Even if they can kick the can down the road the problems are piling up for whenever normality returns. What chance have they got of meeting any transfer instalment fees that will be due shortly ? As all other clubs are in a similar position they may find that goodwill will be in short supply . As David Murray said to Airdrie FC " it's nothing personal , just business". Talking of business will the next statement include a tempting offer to the fans to buy 1sq ft of genuine Ibrox turf ? If not then they're missing a wee earner there. (why else would you dig up the pitch before the decision to end or extend the season? ) In other news , the interims have still not made a public appearance and there's still no news of a retail deal . Hagi to Real Madrid ……… ahahahahahaha the more things change the more they stay the same !
It’s now Ann Budge’s turn to issue another statement. (it’s a bit weak and wishy-washy compared to some of her recent efforts)
https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/chairmans-statement-1-2-3
Timtim
If ever there was a time to relax your face, maintain eye contact and only blink occasionally, now’s the time. Stock is low and there are certain teams facing the reality of this. Some will prosper and secure players on longer term deals for future investment, mostly those that have no immediate urgency to capitalise and sell. Others will forever reminisce about this .
Scottish football needs a strong Scottish football, without fear or prejudice, more so than a strong Arbroath.
Given the recent past history of Scottish football it would not surprise me if a 42 way deal has already been arranged off the table and this vote is designed to provide a veneer of due process and for clubs to make the right noises for their respective fanbases. Every single club requires cash now not just the one based in Ibrox. They are all in this together and will have to make a truly collective decision.
easyJambo
8th April 2020 at 19:10
One other thing that hasn’t been clarified in relation to the proposals is the play-off between Club 42 and the HL/LL play-off winners.
The SPFL have unilaterally proposed that there will be no play-offs, i.e. Brechin will be saved. However, the SPFL rules state that the Pyramid Play-off rules can only be achieved by agreement between the SFA, SPFL, HL and LL.
From the SPFL’s own rules:
Annex 9 – I(c)
Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SPFL, SHFL and SLFL prior to it becoming effective.
That looks as if the SPFL’s proposals could be deemed “ultra vires”, therefore subject to challenge by the HL / LL.
Of course, the HL / LL could use the situation as a bargaining tool to facilitate the automatic relegation of Club 42 in future years.
………………
EJ, as I read it, no amendment to the existing rules would be required. There is already a rule in place.
When a club, or clubs, cannot complete its (or their) fixtures, the SPFL board can make any determination it considers appropriate in the circumstances. That specifically includes a determination of a scheduled Play Off Competition.
The key phrase is “participate in”.
So we have sevco and prob Hearts voting against maybe the Dons as well and 1 more will scuttle it for the top division.Would Killie side with sevco.
Here are some thoughts on it from someone on the Celtic blog.If the post is not allowed admin please delete.
Wullie Langdon
2 hrs
I think we ALL know that the League cannot be written off as null and void. Broadcasters may want refunds as will ST holders all over the country.
Celtic will, regardless of getting awarded it as it stands or by getting the games played out (if possible) will STILL be Champions.
No matter which way this folds, we are winners.
Sevco are feigning concern for other clubs in the hope that this exercise in "crying wolf" will convince clubs to back them and get these payments made and NOT award Celtic the title.
There is a way round this and Celtic as a Club should promote this and come out smelling of roses whilst sticking one to Sevco.
Bear with me on this.
I've done the numbers.
Total prize monies for SPFL Premier League is £20,502,000.
Celtic's cut as winners would be £3.350,000
Sevco's cut as 2nd (?) would be £2,400,000
And so it goes on a sliding scale.
Celtic, as the most powerful and magnanimous club should propose, in light of the plight of smaller clubs, in line with Sevco's concerns, the following:-
ALL Premiership Clubs for this season and this season only should ALL get an equal split of the money.
This means ALL clubs get £1,713,500 each
But before you all start, lets revisit the numbers.
Celtic lose £1,636,500 with this deal.
Sevco lose £680,500 with this deal.
I'm pretty sure we can take a hit of this size but can they? At the rate they burn through money?
They also get what they wanted which is the prize money right now but it is less than they expect LOL.
It also helps a lot of other smaller clubs further down the League.
Or payout all the cash except 1st and 2nd until the season can be finished or until it is impossible to complete it.
You gotta laugh or maybe cry each to their own.
It was emphasised today that some clubs, particularly those in the lower Leagues, need funds to be released to help them navigate their way through this exceptional situation. I do not accept however, that this resolution needs to be passed in order to release those funds. If the Government can change the Laws of the Land, within 24 hours, to cope with this crisis, then surely it cannot be impossible for Scottish Football’s Governing bodies to modify rules to get things done. This is a time for pragmatism, not rules.
……
Back in 2012
there is no mechanism for what we are trying to achieve…” In other words, the people entrusted to run the national game in Scotland were making it up as they were going along.
…
Listen Ann. if they could make rules up then as they went along they can make rules up now as they go along.
shug 9th April 2020 at 00:08
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Those numbers are just made up.
There is no split of prize money per division.
There is a £25m prize pot for the SPFL and it is split amongst the 42 clubs based on their finishing position in the league.
The details are here
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-prize-pot-reaches-25m
"The SPFL has announced that £25 million in league prize money will be paid to its 42 member clubs this season"
"The £25 million league prize money is distributed according to the percentages set out below and is based on overall league standing at the end of the season."
The top club gets 13.4%
The bottom gets 0.18%
Homunculus 9th April 2020 at 00:23
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shug 9th April 2020 at 00:08
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Those numbers are just made up.
There is no split of prize money per division.
There is a £25m prize pot for the SPFL and it is split amongst the 42 clubs based on their finishing position in the league.
The details are here
https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-prize-pot-reaches-25m
"The SPFL has announced that £25 million in league prize money will be paid to its 42 member clubs this season"
"The £25 million league prize money is distributed according to the percentages set out below and is based on overall league standing at the end of the season."
The top club gets 13.4%
The bottom gets 0.18%
=================================
I never said they were just pointing out the thoughts on the Celtic blog would also have posted a thought from follow follow but after you leave out all the disgusting words then there really isn't much left.
That was why I added you gotta laugh or maybe cry no one is interested in any other club but their own I of course include myself in that as well. Leeann Dempster says Hibs are happy to wait but I would not trust what she says as far as I could throw her.
HirsutePursuit 8th April 2020 at 23:50
When a club, or clubs, cannot complete its (or their) fixtures, the SPFL board can make any determination it considers appropriate in the circumstances. That specifically includes a determination of a scheduled Play Off Competition.
============================
I think that the application of rule C50 isn’t appropriate n this circumstance. In fact I’m not sure that is applicable at all, unless you are a lawyer that is looking for loophole to justify the SPFL’s position.
It is the SPFL that is proposing that Brechin cannot complete its fixtures and as a result has decided that it shouldn’t have to face a play-off. It is not the club deciding that it can’t complete its fixtures and participate in the playoff, which is where C50 might come into play.
The Highland League has already declared Brora as its champion, so we have one club already poised to participate, but will not be allowed to do so by the SPFL’s proposal not to submit any club to a play-off or other adjudication.
Simply put the SPFL has put the shutters up by declaring that it won’t participate in the play off competition, without the agreement of the other associations.
From today’s Press and Journal.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/2135581/significant-disappointment-for-highland-league-over-spfls-plan-to-axe-play-offs/
Homunculus 9th April 2020 at 00:23
shug 9th April 2020 at 00:08
—
Given TRFC's magnanimity and generosity of spirit towards the smaller clubs struggling with finance, surely they would support a reversal of those %ages, with the top club receiving 0.18% and the bottom 13.4%.
https://twitter.com/philippeauclair/status/1248192876879757312?s=21
Phillipe Auclair en pointe.
In my simple way of thinking: for the SPL specifically, there are 2 very distinct – and very important issues – being lobbied;
&
They should not be conflated, IMO.
Any SPFL reconstruction should NEVER be rushed, IMO, for any reason – as it sets a precedent, and could be seen to further diminish the integrity of the game, (I know).
If in future years a TRFC or CFC was near to relegation – would another league reconstruction be rushed through?
Obviously, self-interest is muddying the waters here WRT what the SPFL decides: yet another reason to have strong, capable leadership at Hampden to anticipate and navigate around potential blockers to ‘doing the right thing’ for the whole SPFL, both commercially and ethically.
However, I am quietly confident that whatever Doncaster announces – every club and every supporter will be left confused and/or angry. Guaranteed.
shug 9th April 2020 at 00:42
I wasn’t having a go at you, just the person who came up with this idea.
If he or she wants to come up with nonsense like that they should at least get their basic facts right.
Whatever team they support, or site / forum / blog they are posting on.
If people want to talk about splitting the money evenly then it should be £25m split 42 ways. One league, one prize pot. However I don’t think that is fair as it does not in any way reflect how the money is earned.
I also have serious issues about changing the rules of a competition (including the allocation of prizes) after the competition has started. People join a competition based on it’s rules, you should not then change those rules whilst it is still going on.
Hope this is of benefit to some. I received it last night but felt unwilling to post until I spoke to my friend (who sent me this) direct. I spoke to him this morning and he said fine so here goes ……
"Presentations were given by a number of people".
Maxwell SFA.
UEFA told SFA they were looking at a couple of options
Restarting European fixtures early June and domestic leagues later in June
Looking at late June restart with European fixtures in July
The issue with UEFA is that if they do not finish the CL then the pay-back fees are massive.
UEFA have explicitly requested that no decision is made on Top league until after UEFA meeting on 23rd June.
I think this is what has prompted the begging bowl from Rangers
Docaster SPFL
Focused on TV deals.
BetFred deal with Premier Sports begins July.
Sky Sports begins August.
Letter from Govt to SFA saying NHS on emergency until 10th June.
Player's should not train together before this time.
Given teams have recently said it would require 6 weeks to be prepared then this would see season resume late July, early August. Not a viable option.
UEFA have no control over player contracts and this lies with club/player/employment law. Though UEFA acknowledge windows need to change.
Priority is to start new season on time.
As above discussed average points. Hibs would move to 7 and St Johnstone to 6
Any resolution needs 75% of vote in each league (9/12 in SPL)
Summary is that top league will give the power to SPFL to call the league after UEFA meeting on 23rd of June.
Restructuring came up but would be difficult.
watcher 9th April 2020 at 13:09
'…Hope this is of benefit to some…'
$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Thanks for that, watcher.
I am a wee bit surprised that UEFA appear not to have indicated that they might be in a position to at least challenge any claim by broadcasters to refund of monies paid for broadcasting rights if games aren't played, using 'force majeure' argument, perhaps tied in with generous broadcasting deals for subsequent seasons?
To the ordinary eye, it seems a matter of simple fact that circumstances have made it impossible for contracts to be met in full by any party, and that should be at least explored by all parties, in mutual self-interest in the longer term.
John Clark 9th April 2020 at 13:31
…
To the ordinary eye, it seems a matter of simple fact that circumstances have made it impossible for contracts to be met in full by any party…
===================
Absolutely, JC.
And on the face of it, it would seem that UEFA wants to avoid the possibility of any refunds AND to avoid offering any discounts for next season, or future seasons.
Hence, an impasse created by – and controlled by – UEFA.
(Based on nothing but pure speculation, of course.)
They are so desperate for cash down ibrox way it is now plan B
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5476148/rangers-resolution-full-spfl-board-consider/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1586435319
Re UEFA & refunds for TV rights:
Have the broadcasters paid all the monies due for this season’s UEFA CL & EL competitions? They don’t pay all the money up-front (or by the middle of March), surely?
(Incidentally, I wonder if some banks/finance companies are holding on to tranches of season-book money as a result of matches not being played?)
Thanks Watcher and to your friend.
Rangers statement may have appeased some of their fans but your friends comments seem to be in agreement with the rest of us that in reality it is just a feeble attempt at pretending to care!
A club that has taken a "mañana" approach to financial difficulties by merely deferring wages is unlikely to be the best at pointing the way forward. Anyone paying the least bit of attention should surely be aware that we are a long way from a return to normal income levels for football.
3 Whats in these difficult times.
1. What a lack of leadership in our game.
2. What a Hobson's choice series of divisive, unfair, dysfunctional and almost certainly expensive solutions.
3. What an opportunity for real change and changes across the board about to be missed.
From the reported Rangers* proposal : “…..member clubs shall be entitled to effect repayment by written confirmation to the League that the loan provided to that member Club may be set against the equivalent amount of the payment to be made to such member club on such determination.”
Note the use of the word 'entitled'.
Why would this not be an automatic deduction from the prize money when that is decided?
What if a club elects not to have their loan set against the prize money? How would the loan then be recovered? Would the club still get their prize money?
I can see problems ahead if there happened to be a cash-strapped club without access to other lines of credit.
Scottish Football needs to keep their eye on this ball!
Finloch 9th April 2020 at 14:51
3 Whats in these difficult times.
=========================
I’d echo those three “whats”
With regard to your second “what” and “expensive solutions”:
There is something that is fundamentally wrong with the process, when your club can be relegated simply by the votes of competitor clubs, thereby cutting your club’s future revenue from all sources including gate receipts, hospitality, prize money, broadcasting, retail, advertising, sponsorship etc. I’d estimate a drop in turnover of £5-£6m for Hearts, should they be relegated in a similar way to that proposed for Partick and Stranraer.
Had the season been completed and Hearts was in bottom place or had lost a play-off from 11th place then they would have fully deserved the consequences of relegation, but having it imposed by your competitors (some of whom benefit as a result) seems unjust in the extreme.
Let’s say that the majority of Premiership clubs sought to impose an end to the season now and award the title to Celtic. Would Celtic actually vote for that with the knowledge of a risk that UEFA could seek to exclude Scottish teams from UEFA competitions next year, as a result of not completing the season?
That would be an illustration of Celtic potentially being disadvantaged financially by a vote of its competitor clubs. It’s the same situation that Hearts finds itself.
redlichtie 9th April 2020 at 14:58
From the reported Rangers* proposal
………….
They want another loan to add to the loan they recieved from close brothers to add to the loan they got from Dave kings company to add to the deferred wages they will have to pay back
All to be paid back at a later date but if a bill comes in for the Ashley damages and a bill comes in for memorial walls?
Any creditors of the ibrox club just now may be very worried about getting any kind of payment from then any time soon.
Feck looking at it i’m worried they won’t last until the end of the month
At such a time of crisis, with difficult / potentially controversial decisions to make for the SPFL…
IIRC, both Maxwell and Doncaster have their offices on the same, 6th, floor at Hampden.
The two of them could have sat together in front of a laptop for 10 minutes and recorded a short video to stick on YouTube – displaying a united front and explaining the proposals on the table, explaining UEFA's input, reassuring supporters, etc.
Agreed, they probably couldn't add any specific detail, or indicate any preferences, but at the very least it would make the key stakeholders – i.e. us, the paying customers – feel like we are in the loop, being kept informed of what's going on.
Would have cost nothing.
Could have generated some much needed goodwill towards the SPFL and SFA.
But, that personal approach probably never even crossed the minds of Maxwell or Doncaster.
Today we had the inaugural, virtual 'First Minister's Questions' live – so why can't Hampden initiate something similar?
Improving Customer Service at Hampden should be top of their list! Start by asking for Customer Feedback, to state the bleedin' obvious.
If they don't want feedback, they won't improve.
If Maxwell and/or Doncaster are too scared to ask, then they are not leaders of anything, IMO.
Rant over.
easyJambo9th April 2020 at 10:26
..
HirsutePursuit 8th April 2020 at 23:50
When a club, or clubs, cannot complete its (or their) fixtures, the SPFL board can make any determination it considers appropriate in the circumstances. That specifically includes a determination of a scheduled Play Off Competition.
============================
I think that the application of rule C50 isn’t appropriate n this circumstance. In fact I’m not sure that is applicable at all, unless you are a lawyer that is looking for loophole to justify the SPFL’s position.
It is the SPFL that is proposing that Brechin cannot complete its fixtures and as a result has decided that it shouldn’t have to face a play-off. It is not the club deciding that it can’t complete its fixtures and participate in the playoff, which is where C50 might come into play.
…………….
EJ
I'm certainly not trying to justify the SPFL's position.
I have no particular skin in this game – other than a desire to see the people who are charged with overseeing our game do so fairly and within the existing rules.
The very last thing we need is the footballing authorities to, once again, ignore their own rules and make something up to get to a predetermined outcome.
My reading of rule C50 is that it is a catch-all rule – the inclusion of the phrase "for any reason" in the first sentence means that it does not matter why the circumstances have arisen. And the liberal use of "and/or" seeks to make those circumstances as wide as possible.
There is no causation element to this rule – "for any reason" means just that.
It only matters if the relevant circumstance(s) exist(s).
I see this in very simple terms.
Once it has been agreed/dictated that no further league games will be played, it follows by simple logic that clubs will cease to participate in the competition.
Ceasing to "participate in" the league triggers rule C50.
I'd turn this around and ask what loophole you see that would make C50 inoperative?
I honestly cannot see any valid reason why it should not apply.
martin C says @ 19.04
Fair point well made.
As a lifelong CFC fan, I’m desperate for the season to be completed as per 38 games (to eliminate any pathetic calls of ‘tainted’ titles – now there’s an irony for RFC and its apologists and propogandists!), but I must face up to the inevitable that this will not happen.
There is a distinct probability that no European Leagues will be completed.
I wonder (since cricket has the Duckworth-Lewis method of determining winners in truncated matches) could that lead to a kind of Alistair Johnston method of placing an asterisk against national league winners to indicate that, well, they didn’t really win the title.
In such cases, said asterisk would have to be placed against all the league winners who are entered into the Champions League.
Please read the above as ever so slightly ‘tongue-in cheek’ – its that time of night!!
D-Day today then will Scottish football shoot itself in the head sure seems like it could.Looks like Hibs are siding with sevco and Hearts so hell mend them all.
So looks like the top flight is screwed aberdeen a no. If this is really the case then payout no money no loans nothing let everyone live or die by their own means.That includes my club.