Armageddon? What Armageddon?

ByBig Pink

Armageddon? What Armageddon?

Now that we are at the end of the league season, and with respect to the job still to be done at Tannadice and McDiarmid Park, it seems like a good time for a post holocaust report.

Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014

Fig 1 Average Weekly Attendances SPL 2011-2014

Peppered around this page are three charts and a table* showing the attendance figures for the SPL in the last three seasons. A school kid could tell you that there is a positive trend in those charts and figures, but the people who run our national sport will look you straight in the eye and tell you “that can’t be right – Armageddon is coming!”

It is one of the most ridiculous and mendacious situations I have ever come across. The people who run our national game, aided and abetted by those in the MSM (sans the eye contact though) are actually trying to persuade us of how awful our game is and how unsustainable it will be in the absence of one, just one, club.

Think about that. The SFA and the SPFL trying to talk us out of supporting the game unless we all recognise the unique importance of one, just one, club. That is what has happened, no matter how they try to spin it. And despite evidence to the contrary contained in these figures, not one of them has admitted to an error, never mind the downright lies that they told to support the position they held, the one where anyone speaking of sporting integrity was mocked and ridiculed.

 

Whilst growing up as football supporter in the 60s, one of things I was constantly bombarded with via the medium of the tabloid newspapers was that football clubs should be grateful for the publicity afforded them via their back pages. These were probably reasonable claims, especially in the light of the relative lack of access to players and officials conceded to the hacks in those days, and the pre-eminent cultural position in which they helped to place football. Alongside that, the broadcast media, particularly Archie Macpherson’s Sportscene and Arthur Montford’s Scotsport could be relied on to talk the game up. Of course, there was something in it for the papers – sales. The more column inches devoted to the national sport, the further northward their sales, and consequently advertising revenues travelled.

ex Celtic & Rangers

Fig 2 Avg. Attendances excl Celtic & Rangers

The situation was further cemented by the fact that the press in that ante-interweb era held a monopoly over the exchange and dissemination of information. That symbiotic, win-win relationship between football and the press was as much a part of football reality as the Hampden Roar. It also endured for decades. The press would talk up the game to such an extent that folk often remarked that they hadn’t realised how much they had enjoyed a particular match until they had read Malky Munro or Hughie Taylor’s report the next day. Archie Macpherson is on record as having said the same thing about legendary commentator David Francey, “It was a much better game to listen to than to see!”

Today that symbiosis is broken. The press themselves, in print and in front of microphones consistently belittle the product, talk of crises and Armageddon, of our own version of the Eisenhower domino effect of clubs going to the wall one after another.

Aided and abetted by the two chief bureaucrats in charge of Scottish football, Stuart Regan and Neil Doncaster, who have consistently helped to hammer home the message that Scottish football is not good enough, and cannot sustain itself financially without Rangers, a club that could not itself sustain itself financially to the extent that it is being liquidated.

At a time when Scottish football was clearly in crisis, and badly in need of sponsorship which could mitigate the effects of that crisis, the press and the authorities sought to strengthen their own negotiating hand by making negative claims about the state of the game which never came to pass, and for which they have never apologised. The actual situation, which would not have been hard to predict had anyone actually bothered to analyse the business of Scottish football, is summarised quite easily by saying this;

  1. Since Rangers’ liquidation and subsequent absence from the top league, the average home attendance of the other clubs has INCREASED overall (See Fig 2).
  2. In this season, the other clubs have added 50,000 fans to home attendances compared to 2011-12 (the last year Rangers were in competition).
  3. In that time the league has been won (twice) by Celtic, and the other honours have been claimed by St, Mirren, Aberdeen, Celtic and (either) Dundee United or St Johnstone.
  4. In that time, both Dunfermline Athletic and Hearts (who both had historical financial problems) entered – and exited – administration after fan-led buyouts.
  5. Dundee United have cleared off their bank debt.
  6. Kilmarnock have restructured their bank debt, freeing the club from a precarious long-term situation.
  7. League reconstruction has allowed some money to trickle down to the second tier clubs in an attempt to mitigate the immediate effects of relegation and to reward ambitious clubs.

table

Looking at the table of attendances above, it is pretty clear that immediately upon Rangers exit, the overall figures took a dip. However there was little difference the in the figures if you leave Rangers out of the equation (Fig 3) – despite Celtic’s attendance taking a hit that year (down by around 5,000 per home match).

Taking Celtic out of the calculations, it is clear that there is a 6,000 uplift in this average (Fig 2).

It is still undeniable that less people overall are watching football (Fig 1), but the trend is upward if one leaves the Ibrox club out of the picture.

Furthermore, this statistic exposes the double edged sword that is retention of home gates. The fact that gates are not shared is predicated upon the notion that the bigger clubs do not depend on the smaller clubs for income. And since the smaller clubs are no longer recipients of big club largesse, their fortunes are not affected, at least not as much as was suggested by the Regans, Doncasters and Traynors of this parish. The “Trickle-Down” theory of Reganomics said otherwise – but clearly and demonstrably it was wrong.

The abandonment of gate sharing has made Scottish football less interdependent than it once was, but the irony is that it works both ways. There is hardly a club in the country that depends on Rangers for their own existence, and here is the news; small clubs are no longer financially dependent on the former Old Firm.

Excluding Celtic

Fig 3 Excluding Celtic

The fact, that is F-A-C-T, is that Scottish Football attendances in the top division are on the increase. The absence of Rangers has made no appreciably negative difference to any other club, far less caused a catastrophe of biblical proportions.

Even if the fools who were the harbingers of our doom were simply guilty of making an honest mistake, it is clear that they are uncontaminated with the slightest notion of how the game in this country operates. The Old Firm may be dead, but the OF prism is still being peered through by Stuart Regan, Neil Doncaster and the vast majority of print journalists. The latter who failed to honour that age-old football/press symbiosis because they believed, erroneously that David Murray’s dinner table was the hand that has fed them for over a century.

The irony is that as job opportunities diminish in the print sector, so too will the fine dining and patronage. I think they call that evolution.

 

Two years ago, in the wake of the fans’ season ticket revolt which saw the new Rangers forced to apply for membership of the league and begin at the bottom, those same MSM hacks taunted fans about putting their money where their mouths were. The fans responded splendidly as our statistics demonstrate, but typically there has been no recognition of this either at Hampden or in the media.

And the message from those fans is this: Scottish football is not dying. Not any more. At least not as surely as it was when David Murray started to choke the life out of it in the late 80s. The supporters are returning in numbers to see a competition untainted by the outrageous liberty-taking and rule-breaking of the last couple of decades, and all but one club has emerged from the mire of the Moonbeam Millennium looking forward to a new era.

If authorities allow the new era to thrive by restoring sporting integrity to the agenda, then the numbers, like the opportunities available to more and more clubs, will grow. The question is … will they?

Admittedly, these figures, like any set of statistics, can be cherry-picked to suit almost any argument that you care to construct. The fact remains though, that whilst it would be fanciful and ridiculously over-optimistic to claim that they bear witness to a burgeoning industry, it is utterly dishonest to conclude that they represent financial Armageddon. Armageddon? Aye right!

* Source ESPN          

About the author

Big Pink administrator

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

2,810 Comments so far

mcfcPosted on3:52 pm - Jun 10, 2014


StevieBC says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:45 pm
“Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds…” [Sonnet 116]
========================================
nice one 🙂

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StevieBCPosted on4:01 pm - Jun 10, 2014


neepheid says:
June 10, 2014 at 12:47 pm
From twitter-
“Football Agent ‏@agent37654 33m
My understanding is that the #SFA are considering purchasing Ibrox Stadium from #Rangers and part-leasing it back ”…
================================
My initial reaction was that the SFA was making public noises about alternatives – prior to asking for a renegotiation of their rental agreement(s) at Hampden ?

Leasing Ibrox would just be one dodgy SFA deal too far…wouldn’t it…mibbees ? 👿

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billyj1Posted on4:16 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Re last call for World Cup bagsies.
Es possible Espana por favor?
Apologies.

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andygraham.66Posted on4:20 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Hereford United have been expelled from the Football conference for financial irregularities.

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wottpiPosted on4:25 pm - Jun 10, 2014


No great fan of Butcher but he must be wondering why he left his heilan hame?
When will the Hibs board actually support a manager that they appointed in the first place?
Not sure if Petrie is the problem but something seriously bad needs cutting out of the Easter Road club.
Got a feeling that it is not Butcher.

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sickofitallPosted on4:47 pm - Jun 10, 2014


In respect of the SPL tribunal, creditors will be aware that the Company was found to have
contravened SPL rules in relation to the issue of dual contracts and was fined £250k although not
stripped of any titles. To date, no claim has been intimated to the Joint Liquidators in respect
of this fine.

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PW1874Posted on4:48 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Butcher’s managerial record is truly appalling, as fans of Coventry, Brentford, Sydney, Motherwell and Sunderland will attest to. Moderate success at Inverness, secured a move to Hibs, but that move was a disaster in the making and the Hibs Board had all the evidence at their to disposal to know better.

How or why he continues to get any managerial gigs is beyond me.

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ecobhoyPosted on4:52 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Famous song says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:52 pm

Sad to see Terry B getting his jotters from Hibs, after they were relegated to The Championship. Hard to see how the MSM can play this, as he’s got his team into a league they’re busily promoting as the pinnacle of footballing excellence, a money spinning competition that has Bayern, Real and PSG looking on with ill concealed jealousy. They may just ignore their own previous comments, for a day or two.
========================================
I would think it fits-in perfectly. He was good enough for the Premiership but just isn’t up to the added competition in the Championship . . . Simples 🙄

Seriously though there was no way he was going to survive relegation to that better place.

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neepheidPosted on5:03 pm - Jun 10, 2014


mcfc says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:50 pm
2 0 Rate This

neepheid says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Costa Rica for me, please.
========================
neepheid – we know what you’re thinking 🙂
======================
You’re not wrong, but have you seen the bookies odds? I got £5 on at 2500/1 ! They did well in qualifying, and no they won’t win the tournament, but fingers crossed for a major upset in the group stage. Currently 7/1 to beat England. I’ll either be very rich or totally broke by the time of the final. Mrs NH gives 1/10 on the totally broke scenario. She simply doesn’t understand my strategy 🙄 🙄

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FinlochPosted on5:05 pm - Jun 10, 2014


wottpi says: June 10, 2014 at 4:25 pm
No great fan of Butcher but he must be wondering why he left his heilan hame?
When will the Hibs board actually support a manager that they appointed in the first place?
Not sure if Petrie is the problem but something seriously bad needs cutting out of the Easter Road club.
Got a feeling that it is not Butcher.
………………………………………………………………….
Hibs have undoubtedly suffered because they have done two things and I think Butcher was just the wrong guy at the wrong time.

Firstly they have run the club as a business in the last few years and refused to speculate like their city rivals. By doing this they unashamedly became a selling club and unfortunately saw the Glasgow clubs as their customers. You can’t blame the fans for being frustrated when their city rivals win silverware with money they didn’t have.
Hibs have supported every manager but only with the money they could afford.
Secondly they have had three bad managers in a row.
Calderwood was awful
Fenlon nearly as bad
And then they backed what they thought was a winner stealing TB from Caley.
It was a perfect storm
Some demotivated old pros and a squad not fit for purpose, and then TB tactics of playing 4 centre halves at the back coupled with his long ball into the corners philosophy.

I think TB should have resigned two weeks ago and think he shoulders more blame than Petrie who backed what he thought was a winner.
I also think TB will surface again in the Highlands.

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AllyjamboPosted on5:08 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Ring, Ring. Ring, Ring. Click… ‘Terry Butcher here.’
‘Terry, it’s Graham Wallace here…’

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Paulmac2Posted on5:16 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
June 10, 2014 at 12:00 am
……………………..

So in essence what you are saying BB is…if a farm goes bust…and I want to buy the tractor in an asset sale from the Administrator….I also have to employ the 6 farm hands that worked on the estate?

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StevieBCPosted on5:19 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Phil MacGiollaBhain@Pmacgiollabhain
I’m hearing that interviews for Sevco Director of Communications are ongoing Rob Shorthouse will be pleased to learn that he is front runner
=================================
Now, if you are already in a decent job – why would you even interview for a company in financial distress, [re: Sevco going concern warnings] ?

If you are not working and/or near retirement age it might be worth a punt.

And how is a new, senior appointment going to help Sevco cash flow ? 🙄

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Caveat EmptorPosted on5:20 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Italia for me, always huv a wee punt on them during major tournies. Think they are a good bet to win their opening fixture on Saturday.

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WhulliePosted on5:32 pm - Jun 10, 2014


wottpi says:
June 10, 2014 at 9:32 am

Surely the simple solution is to bang heads together and turn Murrayfield into a true National Stadium.
—————————————————————————————————————————————————
Murrayfield is now The BT Murrayfield Stadium.
Given BT’s increased stake in football sponsorship, and suggestions that Hampden is on the way out, could there be any link?

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iamacantPosted on5:36 pm - Jun 10, 2014


StevieBC says:
June 10, 2014 at 5:19 pm

Shorthouse doesn’t partake in succulent lamb.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/strathclyde-polices-top-pr-man-1071279

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wildwoodPosted on5:45 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Oh so close.

How good would it be if his name was in fact Bighouse?

Bighouse’s gub must stay open!

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essexbeancounterPosted on5:49 pm - Jun 10, 2014


mcfc says:

StevieBC says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:45 pm
“Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds…” [Sonnet 116]
========================================
nice one 🙂
====================================================================
…was this before or after the introduction of “tippex or snopake”..?…those essential tools in every beancounter’s armament…!

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ecobhoyPosted on5:51 pm - Jun 10, 2014


I think it’s time for a wee reminder wrt the basics of State Aid which is defined as: ‘An advantage in any form whatsoever conferred on a selective basis to undertakings by national public authorities.’

At its simplest this means:

‘Using taxpayer-funded resources to provide assistance to one or more organisations in a way that gives an advantage over others may be state aid.

‘Some state aid is illegal under EU rules because it distorts competition in a way that is harmful to citizens and companies in the EU.’

For State Aid to apply all four of the undernoted must apply:

(a) Transfer of State resources
State aid rules cover only measures involving a transfer of state resources (including national, regional or local authorities, public banks and foundations, etc.).

(b) Economic advantage
The aid should constitute an economic advantage that the undertaking would not have
received in the normal course of business. Eg: A company buys/rents publicly owned land at less than the market price or a company sells land to the state at higher than market price.

(c) Selectivity
State aid must be selective and thus affect the balance between certain firms and their
competitors.

(d) Effect on competition and trade
Aid must have a potential effect on competition and trade between Member States. It is
sufficient if it can be shown that the beneficiary is involved in an economic activity and that it operates in a market in which there is trade between Member States.

So at what point could Celtic become involved with State Aid and EC Regulations?

Well, there’s no doubt that the sale/purchase/lease of public land or property at discounted/inflated rates could constitute state aid. I will ignore the de minimus exception as I can’t be bothered trying to work it out and I don’t think it would apply anyway.

However, it’s clear that any purchases/sales/leases of land/property to or from Glasgow City Council; the NHS, or West of Scotland Housing Association could potentially be caught in the State Aid net if the ‘market price’ wasn’t paid.

EC Regulations make it clear that a public body selling land should behave in the same way as a private vendor operating under normal market economy conditions and sell at the ‘market value’.

And the EC defines ‘market value’ as:

The price at which land could be sold under a private contract between a willing seller and an arm’s length buyer on the date of valuation, it being assumed that the property is publicly exposed to the market, that market conditions permit orderly disposal and that a normal period, having regard to the nature of the land, is available for the negotiation of the sale.

If no bidding or auction procedure is to take place, an independent valuation should be
carried out prior to the sale negotiations to establish the market value – that is, the price at which the assets could be sold in an arm’s length transaction.

The evaluation should be undertaken by an independent asset valuer, which might include a state valuation office or public officers who can act without “undue influence” being exerted on their findings.

It’s important to note that contrary to what some Donald Duck Land Bears spout – there is no need for a public bidding or auction process to take place. All that is required is that the ‘market value’ be established and verified by an independent valuer/surveyor and attained.

This is a vitally important point because unless it can be established that the ‘market price’ wasn’t obtained then that means that Clause (b) Economic Advantage (see above) doesn’t apply which means no state aid has been provided and therefore no breach of EC Regulations has taken place.

So Donald Duck can quack all he wants but it all boils down to whether they can prove that the ‘market value’ wasn’t realised in any transaction. I haven’t seen them even come close to that in any of the hot air they have generated and they know that as well and that’s why they are getting so strident and ratcheting-up their harassment campaign and desparately clutching at straws.

They are about to start one of their mass email campaigns in a bid to browbeat Parliament. Godd Luck to them on that as they seem to have forgotten the 500 million strong global fanbase struggled to raise 40,000 signatures – most of them fraudulent – against the hated HMRC 😆

Still it’s good therapy for them and stops them thinking about their own problems 😈

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yourhavingalaughPosted on5:56 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Anyone know when the SFA delegation are departing for the World Cup Finals ,are they just going for the final,semi & final ,quarters/semis & final or the whole hog answers on the back of a Scotland away top to the usual address.

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Flocculent ApoideaPosted on6:00 pm - Jun 10, 2014


twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:25 pm

Last call for World Cup Bagsies
——————-
Can I have the undefeated Sepp Blatter, please? Where do I send the brown envelope?

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hectorPosted on6:03 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Rod Shorthouse is the front runner for director of communications at Sevco. Mr Shorthouse is ideal for the job . He may even be a relative of Herr Von Smallhausen of Allo Allo fame. 😆

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jockybhoyPosted on6:07 pm - Jun 10, 2014


ecobhoy says: June 10, 2014 at 11:51 am

Hi Eco, I think you misunderstood, or more liklely I didn’t clarify my thinking. I think it is an academic exercise in that there will be no money for “creditors” – they will be shafted. If BDO’s main hope to get money for those owed it by the company that used to own Rangers is to sue other professional practitioners I thought that was more than hopeful – I didn’t factor in professional imdemnity insurers but even then…

I totally agree that due process should be followed. I additonally hope the precedents set, the loopholes closed and what I would deem “special favours” are exposed and closed for furture cases. Whoever they are – Hearts, Hibs, Celtic, NewGers or the next rich man’s toy.

The idea that clubs/companies/clumpanies can walk away from debts to creditors and just set up again round the corner is a joke and a disgrace and ANYONE involved in such a process – SFA, SPFL, “professional” (sic) practitioners shuld hang their heads in shame at the trust they have abused.

Not sure I can make it any cleaer than that…

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wottpiPosted on6:25 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Finloch says:
June 10, 2014 at 5:05 pm

Hear what you say but it goes back further than that.

No problem with Hibs running a tight ship however there has to be a balance between going for the cheap option and hoping that the one decent bit of talent like Fletcher, Riordan or Griffiths can carry the team and building a well rounded squad.
One good un is better than two duffers and the good uns bring the duffers on.

I also go back to it being a mistake not to support Collins in trying to follow up Mowbray’s stylish team and develop a modern professional attitude at the club. Something rotten got a hold of the dressing room after that time and has stunk the place out ever since.

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twopandaPosted on6:49 pm - Jun 10, 2014


World Cup `Bagsies`

• Campbellsmoney – Uruguay
• SteveBC – USA
• ChristyBoy – Italy
• Ryan Gosling – Argentina
• KickerConspiracy – Germany
• MCFC – England
• Brenda – Spain
• Redlichtie – Brazil
• Ianmacant – Chile
• Smartie1947 – Scotland
• Andy – Brazil
• Barcabhoy – Argentina
• CowanPete – Belgium
• Taratanwulwer – Belgium
• ClusterOne – Mexico
• ParaHandy – Netherlands
• Doonhammer – Portugal
• Danish Pastry – Denmark
• twopanda – France
• Macfurgley – Uruguay
• Castofthousands – Ghana
• John Clark – Chile
• Peterjung – South Korea
• Sannoffymesssoitizz – Colombia
• Resin_lab_dog – England
• Upthehoops – Germany
• Paulmac2 – Spain
• Mattyroth – Cameroon
• Tincks – Ivory Coast
• JimBhoy – Argentina
• BrigsBhoy – Spain
• Oddjob – Argentina
• Jean7brodie – España
• ScottC – Croatia
• GallingFiver – Deutschland
• neepheid – Costa Rica
• Indy14 – Germany
• BillyJ1 – Espana
• Caveat Emptor – Italia
• Flocculent Apoidea – Switzerland

A Fair and Open Draw
BLIMEY!
😉

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jean7brodiePosted on6:49 pm - Jun 10, 2014


jockybhoy says:
June 10, 2014 at 6:07 pm

The idea that clubs/companies/clumpanies can walk away from debts to creditors and just set up again round the corner is a joke and a disgrace and ANYONE involved in such a process – SFA, SPFL, “professional” (sic) practitioners shuld hang their heads in shame at the trust they have abused.

Not sure I can make it any cleaer than that…
____________________________________________
Well said Jockbhoy. It sums up the whole raison d’etre for this site.

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ecobhoyPosted on6:54 pm - Jun 10, 2014


I would really love to know what questions the Vanguard Bears asked on Thursday 15th May 2014 when they met David Somers, Graham Wallace, Norman Crighton, James Easdale and Sandy Easdale at Ibrox.

Whatever was asked must have been dynamite because, despite an assurance from the Ibrox Board members to review and provide feedback to the VBs, there hasn’t been a cheep since.

At this rate it will be more than 127 days before anything is announced. Of course perhaps the Board members have decided there isn’t anything worth answering or perhaps that the VBs don’t rate an answer 🙁

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MartinPosted on6:55 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Twopanda,

put me down for Spain.

😀

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RyanGoslingPosted on6:57 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Great work Twopanda, your efforts are appreciated!

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mcfcPosted on7:00 pm - Jun 10, 2014


twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 6:49 pm
• MCFC – England
• Resin_lab_dog – England
===========================================
Only two for England – Better Together chaps 🙂

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twopandaPosted on7:02 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Martin says: at 6:55 pm
Ok – will pick up any more TSFMs just before World Cup Kick-Off 😉

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MartinPosted on7:08 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Twopanda,

good man!

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upthehoopsPosted on7:26 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Re Terry Butcher. Personally I am disappointed he didn’t get to stay at Hibs but what I think matters not a bit, as I have no vested interest. You have to assume it would not have been cheap to get rid of him unless there was a clause regarding relegation. I guess he’ll we wondering why he ended such a happy marriage at Inverness but that’s life. The potential at Hibs remains though for the man who finally gets it right – Ian Murray next up?

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weescotsmanPosted on7:46 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Martin says: at 6:55 pm
Ok – will pick up any more TSFMs just before World Cup Kick-Off 😉

Stick me down for Germany. Think they are a stick on to be the first non-South American team to win in South America. 11/2 is a bit stingy odds at the bookies though. Can’t see Spain making it 4 major tournaments in a row really. Fingers crossed and good luck to all the TSFM-ers…..

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StevieBCPosted on7:48 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Flocculent Apoidea says:
June 10, 2014 at 6:00 pm

twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 3:25 pm

Last call for World Cup Bagsies
——————-
Can I have the undefeated Sepp Blatter, please? Where do I send the brown envelope?
======================================
Think we have a winner ! 😆

And do you think Ogilvie has a poster of Blatter on his bedroom wall?
I think we should be told…

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smartie1947Posted on7:58 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Twopanda

I was being somewhat facetious in selecting Scotland as potential World Cup winners 2-3 days ago. I did it to highlight the SFA’s efforts to ensure all matters Ibrox took precedence over their responsibilities to the rest of Scottish football.
However after noticing Stewart Regan was in Sao Paulo today attending the FIFA Congress (no laughing at the back), I still believe Scotland has an outside chance. If only someone can confirm that Bryson is there also to rule on any contentious matters, their price should drop considerably.
Needless to say any winnings on this “outsider” will be donated to TSFM.

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StevieBCPosted on8:11 pm - Jun 10, 2014


smartie1947 says:
June 10, 2014 at 7:58 pm

Twopanda

I was being somewhat facetious in selecting Scotland as potential World Cup winners…
=======================================================================
IIRC, Scotland was as good as a World Cup winner – if for only a very brief period in fans’ heads…back in ’78 !
When Ally, [no – the real manager], promised to “bring back a medal at least”.
And when the squad had a victory lap around Hampden in an open top bus – before flying out to Argentina.

OK, we all fell for the hyperbole – but it was great fun…to start with.
16 long years without any World Cup mania in Scotland…but at least the SFA blazers never miss the Finals ! 👿

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ChristyboyPosted on8:14 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Howdy, might I suggest that when your team is put out, you stick £2 into TSFM?

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pau1mart1nPosted on8:14 pm - Jun 10, 2014


ecobhoy says: I would really love to know what questions the Vanguard Bears asked on Thursday 15th May 2014 when they met David Somers, Graham Wallace, Norman Crighton, James Easdale and Sandy Easdale at Ibrox.

did they not just use the ones they asked craig whyte ?

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y4rmyPosted on8:18 pm - Jun 10, 2014


World Cup `Bagsies`

• Campbellsmoney – Uruguay
• SteveBC – USA
• ChristyBoy – Italy
• Ryan Gosling – Argentina
• KickerConspiracy – Germany
• MCFC – England
• Brenda – Spain
• Redlichtie – Brazil
• Ianmacant – Chile
• Smartie1947 – Scotland
• Andy – Brazil
• Barcabhoy – Argentina
• CowanPete – Belgium
• Taratanwulwer – Belgium
• ClusterOne – Mexico
• ParaHandy – Netherlands
• Doonhammer – Portugal
• Danish Pastry – Denmark
• twopanda – France
• Macfurgley – Uruguay
• Castofthousands – Ghana
• John Clark – Chile
• Peterjung – South Korea
• Sannoffymesssoitizz – Colombia
• Resin_lab_dog – England
• Upthehoops – Germany
• Paulmac2 – Spain
• Mattyroth – Cameroon
• Tincks – Ivory Coast
• JimBhoy – Argentina
• BrigsBhoy – Spain
• Oddjob – Argentina
• Jean7brodie – España
• ScottC – Croatia
• GallingFiver – Deutschland
• neepheid – Costa Rica
• Indy14 – Germany
• BillyJ1 – Espana
• Caveat Emptor – Italia
• Flocculent Apoidea – Switzerland

A Fair and Open Draw
BLIMEY!

Make that a hat trick for England. I’m in.

(I apologise in advance for the embarrassing media hysteria that will follow if we somehow get out of the group.)

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mcfcPosted on8:22 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Insomnia Solved

Or, come back Charles Green all is forgiven – if this is the dynamic force that will rescue The Rangers then I’m Gina Lollobrigida.

btw I don’t remember Keef quoting this wee gem from 7min 42secs:

“They (Blue Chip partners) get turned off because they don’t want to have their brand associated with a business that can’t sort itself out”.

Surely Mr Wallace’s Ratner moment has gone unreported by the MSM – and all the investigative undercover work they had to do was stay awake for a 15min YouTube video – albeit a very dreary, poorly shot one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z95L8VVLUUI&feature=youtu.be
.

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mcfcPosted on8:26 pm - Jun 10, 2014


y4rmy says:
June 10, 2014 at 8:18 pm
Make that a hat trick for England. I’m in.
================================================================
Three Lions – ok I’ll stop now – that’s enough – where’s me coat.

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macfurglyPosted on8:33 pm - Jun 10, 2014


From the BDO report:
The current charge out rates per hour of staff within my firm who may be involved in working on the liquidation follows. This in no way implies that staff at all such grades will work on the case.
London Charge-out Rages Scottish Charge-out Rages
STAFF GRADE £ £
Partner 658 428

Is this a refreshingly candid term for a healthy level of fees, or a Freudian slip?

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South0fThe BorderPosted on8:44 pm - Jun 10, 2014


It seems as though there’s a few of us on here with allegiances to England – me too!

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twopandaPosted on8:48 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Phil Tweet
Compare & contrast: The annual operating costs for Motherwell FC for year ending was £1.6M. Sevco MONTHLY operating costs £3.4M. #Onerous

View Comment

oddjobPosted on8:50 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Deloittes have reportedly called for a business plan by June13. Anyone out there superstitious? The 13th this month falls on Friday.
Will it be black?

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mcfcPosted on8:50 pm - Jun 10, 2014


StevieBC says:
June 10, 2014 at 7:48 pm
And do you think Ogilvie has a poster of Blatter on his bedroom wall?
I think we should be told…
=========================================
Jack Warner, Michel Platini, Jerome Valcke and Sepp Blatter all have OG posters on their bedroom walls.

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scarecrow666Posted on8:53 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Scary at how shocking FIFA is, but quite funny too…
http://youtu.be/DlJEt2KU33I

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Bill1903Posted on9:16 pm - Jun 10, 2014


My vote for World Cup is for Argentina

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Para HandyPosted on9:35 pm - Jun 10, 2014


mcfc says:
June 10, 2014 at 7:00 pm
6 1 Rate This

twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 6:49 pm
• MCFC – England
• Resin_lab_dog – England
===========================================
Only two for England – Better Together chaps
——————-
“No, Thanks”

😎

View Comment

AllyjamboPosted on10:04 pm - Jun 10, 2014


mcfc says:
June 10, 2014 at 8:22 pm

Well, that’s it then. After listening to that rousing speech by Mr Wallace all I can say is that we’ve all got it wrong and TRFC are very stable financial situation. We might as well all go home. Sorry, we might as well all go out, that is unless your in the pub, in which case you might as well go home. There again, you might want to stay for another pint, though you might not drink beer, so maybe another wee dram. Hope you’re all finding this very interesting coz I’ve just spent 15 minutes listening to that dry delivery to those Canadian bears, and no wonder they all sounded uninterested (they weren’t exactly riveted). Wallace himself didn’t sound all that interested either and appeared to be going through the motions, knowing there was nothing he could say that his audience wanted to hear. A bit like a conjurer with no rabbit to pull out of his hat.

I thought, and I expect many others did, that this jaunt to the US and Canada was some sort of attempt to lift the spirits and fill the coffers. It now seems no more than a pre-arranged ‘must do’ that Wallace could do without.

MCFC’s spot re ‘blue chip partners’ was spot on, and such was the apparent apathy there, it seemed to elicit no sense of shock horror or realisation of it’s significance.

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twopandaPosted on10:19 pm - Jun 10, 2014


smartie1947 says: at 7:58 pm

😉
Blatter could do with helping hands at the moment – SFAs credentials impeccable 🙄

Russia, Bosnia or Greece? – Strong Teams

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neepheidPosted on10:31 pm - Jun 10, 2014


twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 10:19 pm

Blatter could do with helping hands at the moment – SFAs credentials impeccable
=============================
No problem- Ogilvie’s term is up next summer, at which point he will seamlessly slip into the vacant vice president role at FIFA. He is just the man Blatter wants in his hour of need. Bringing with him a shared philosophy, and all the skills required to sweep all those nasties under the deep pile carpet. Anyone betting against Ogilvie succeeding Blatter in due course? A perfect fit.

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andygraham.66Posted on10:32 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Italia for me

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mcfcPosted on10:46 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Where’s Jim Traynor

As Phil mentions interviews for Director of Communications at the Pleasure Dome, where is the great man in The Rangers’ time of need. I ask because I’ve just been reading the LSE discussion board – http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=RFC And two of the contributors gave me flashbacks to the full-steam-ahead, logic-blinkers-on, every-fact-is-in-our-favour – all-who-disagree-are-timmy-haters, deflectors-to-11 flavour of a Traynor rant – namely stuzeeuk and blue7860. Some patient souls try to reason with them but they are immuned to reason and reasonableness. It this the low-rent medium that JIm now inhabits ?

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twopandaPosted on10:51 pm - Jun 10, 2014


neepheid says at 10:31 pm

Apart from the complete accuracy bit – don’t have a problem with that synopsis NH 😉

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CastofthousandsPosted on10:53 pm - Jun 10, 2014


twopanda says:
June 10, 2014 at 6:49 pm

“World Cup `Bagsies`”
——————————————-
Twopanda’s World Cup bagsie as sponsored by Campbellsmoney.

Teams currently unselected:

Australia
Iran
Japan
Algeria
Nigeria
Honduras
Ecuador
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Greece
Russia

View Comment

twopandaPosted on11:16 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Maj Apols! – poss ambiguous
NH Correct as always and is

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TincksPosted on11:24 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Castofthousands says:
June 10, 2014 at 10:53 pm

“World Cup `Bagsies`”
——————————————-
Twopanda’s World Cup bagsie as sponsored by Campbellsmoney.

—————————————————-

Crikey, if Twopanda has already found a sponsor you’d think the SFA might be able to…………….

Um, err. Forget I spoke.

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twopandaPosted on11:32 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Think I`ll take a short break – miss Angus, Slim and others

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ptd1978Posted on11:37 pm - Jun 10, 2014


Doh!
Posted this on the previous thread.

I reckon Uruguay’s defence will make a big impact on this World Cup. They have the potential to score as many as they concede. Messi and co might have enough to see them off, but it’s 50-50ish so I’m going for Uruguay.

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Flocculent ApoideaPosted on11:59 pm - Jun 10, 2014


I believe Herr Blatter could be about to solve the SFA’s accommodation problem (their physical one, not accommodating bogus football clubs). A FIFA insider says he’s been in touch with an offshore company, Soccer Property Experts Commercial Titles & Real Estate (or S.P.E.C.T.R.E for short) and found them a hollowed-out volcano. Very poor WiFi but they know a man to sort that.

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John ClarkPosted on12:10 am - Jun 11, 2014


oddjob says:
June 10, 2014 at 1:47 pm
‘..Have HMRC now an argument of precedence, or will RFC continue with the points made sometime ago (John Clark I think revealed) that decisions in England are not enforceable in Scotland?’
———-
I checked my notes of the last day of the UTTT hearing.
Mr T, had, during the lunch recess, prepared some kind of hastily typed written submission and, when the post-lunch session commenced, Lord D referred to this fact.
Whereupon Mr T asked “Will I withdraw the document I submitted? I can address the thrust of the document.”
Mr Thornhill remarked ” I’m conscious of time, my lord.Or I can can reply to the document”
Lord D (addressing Mr T) said ” Mr Thornhill ought to get some time to reply in writing.7days?”

I find it interesting that a considerably longer time was subsequently agreed! There could be any number of reasons for that-illness, over-loaded diaries , holidays….
But if Mr Thornhill ( who had, of course, had been given a copy of the document that Mr T had submitted) felt it necessary to ask for a longer time to prepare his response, that would suggest that there was some meaty stuff that needed some research.
I doubt, though, whether that would have related to the question of whether English cases could set a binding precedent in Scotland [ incidentally, I simply reported that the view that they did NOT was only the view taken and expressed to me by the MG Finance Director!].
I suspect rather that the real meat would relate to the question as to whether Mr T is right in claiming that Lord D should not, need not, simply refer the case back to the original Tribunal [ to give proper findings of fact] but that he has the power and jurisdiction to make necessary findings of fact himself, and decide the case.
(As far as I could understand matters, neither side had earlier been of any help to him in providing
him with precedent in that regard).
Perhaps Mr T had been on the phone at lunchtime and got someone in HMRC to do some quick research for precedents, and some had been found!
I feel that Lord D’s ‘problem’ is that he believes the First Tier’s decision is not procedurally legally sound, because they did not SHOW clearly that they had given due weight to ALL the evidence. Should he therefore send the case back to them, telling them to demonstrate that they had in fact done so, and to show how their decision was arrived at by the application of all CORRECTLY interpreted law to the facts that they accepted?
Or, should he rule that , perhaps because the comprehensiveness and thoroughness of Dr Poon’s minority opinion either went determinedly unheeded by the ‘majority’ or were clearly( because of the majority’s lesser abilities as lawyers), not properly understood and appreciated by them,there would be no point in sending the case back to the guys who did not handle it correctly first time round, and that it should go for a complete rehearing by a differently constituted Tribunal?

Now, Lord Doherty was clearly aware of the practicalities attending either of those options. A referral back to a ‘majority’ that was EITHER not quite up to the mark professionally( and would not have become legal geniuses since their first decision!) OR was psychologically entrenched in their view of the evidence? Nix to that idea.
Or a referral to a differently constituted Tribunal for a completely fresh hearing of all the witnesses and written evidence , with the expense and time ( and the time that has elapsed since witnesses first gave their evidence!) that would be attached to that.
He would not readily choose to do either, I think.
But if he were to decide the case himself he would need to be sure that sitting as an Appeal judge, on a point of law, he would have the legal power to make findings of FACT! He quite naturally would not want to attempt to break new ground just for the hell of it.
But I stick with my view that he will in fact decide the case himself, on the basis that for whatever reason, the First Tier majority both misdirected themselves on the law, AND failed to make findings of fact which anyone reading a transcript of the evidence can plainly see.
Interesting.

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briggsbhoyPosted on12:15 am - Jun 11, 2014


mcfc says:
June 10, 2014 at 10:46 pm

I know for a fact that back in February he was working from a small office in the town and had been given a desk by a friend. He was writing about his time at Sevco and had at that point penned some 5000 words if my memory serves me correctly. I would suspect there will be a book out for Christmas and maybe he’s waiting to see what the final outcome is on a number of outstanding issues.

On the Butcher issue I must admit I have a degree of sympathy for him and I have tended to stand up for him when fellow Celtic supporters have questioned his commitment when any of his teams played Rangers. I think he comes across as a decent chap with a passion for his adopted country, that I like. I’m pondering whether LD was at Motherwell when he was there and wasn’t a fan and therefore she has had an influence in what happened today. The Hibs board ought to be questioning their own ability to pick a suitable candidate for the job. If there past success is anything to go by I can foresee a long time in the Championship unless of course Falkirk win it and neither of the big three even get to the play offs. If that happens I think we will see an extension of the SPFL. 😉

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CampbellsmoneyPosted on12:39 am - Jun 11, 2014


Paulmac2

regarding TUPE and tractors.

No.

Buying one tractor from an insolvent farm company is not a TUPE transfer.

Buying a tractor, some land and the contract to sell crops to SFA purchaser probably will be. Buying all of that and the right to call yourself Oldco Farm will be.

To confuse matters, if I am a small company with one asset, a tractor, and I go bust, and you buy that tractor, and you do the work that I did before I went bust, that might be a TUPE transfer.

So, to be very very clear, THE TRANSFER BY THE ADMINISTRATORS OF OLDCO TO SEVCO WAS A TUPE TRANSFER.

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the taxman comethPosted on12:47 am - Jun 11, 2014


Charlotte2Weeks ‏@Charlotte2Weeks 10m
1: Daniel Stewart OK’d new share issue. Agreed with Laxey, Margarita and BP.

2: Alexander Easdale to be CEO.

3: Share issue is final.

View Comment

BawsmanPosted on12:57 am - Jun 11, 2014


Brilliant news, Ally to spend it, tick tock.

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BarcabhoyPosted on2:25 am - Jun 11, 2014


Re Easdale

I would be surprised if this was true, but at Rangers anything is possible.

A jailed vat fraudster to be CEO of a plc !!

Just the type of person you want looking after the interests of the small shareholders !!

When you start off the cycle of power and ownership at Ibrox with Murray , who has cost the public purse £Hundreds of millions with his business collapsing, with his regime being found guilty of tax evasion ( a crime in most countries) and of industrial scale deception , then you really can’t have any real expectations of proper corporate governance.

That Murray’s board included a CEO who was investigated by the French authorities for possibly accepting a bribe, a criminally convicted tax evader and an entire board , including Mr Goody two shoes Alastair Johnston , who failed to report the tax evasion and deception , then it’s wise not not expect any standard of ethical behaviour.

The torch of corporate malfeasance was willingly passed to a guy who had been banned from serving as a Director for 7 years , but conveniently forgot to mention it to anyone. His successors included a serial go buster with the largest mouth in Yorkshire, and thats some achievement, and a lightweight who was only in post for long enough to get most of his investment back.

Sidekicks in this period included a Diredtor who’s only obvious benefit was that his mother had her own bank account, an FD who spent more time on videoing a drunken Chairman than he did in putting together a viable and sustainable financial structure , and another Chairman who’s lunatic spending was a significant factor in liquidation in his previous role as a manager.

He also conveniently ensured his personal friend and proven incompetent was installed as manager at a salary twice what Dortmund paid to one of the best managers in Europe. Just when you think the farce will never end, a half decent CEO is recruited. Immediately of course, non events like Chris Graham and the Sons of Struth set about undermining him for the benefit of the criminal tax evader in South Africa.

So to move to a guy , with a terrible reputation and who has spent jail time for Vat fraud and having an unexplainable poly bag full of readies behind the sofa , is really what we should expect. Anyone repectable or credible will get savaged by the PR hit man, and like McColl , Paul Murray and Blin will disappear and leave the field to the criminally convicted and their pals.

Scottish Football could do itself a favour and immediately ban for life anyone found guilty of criminal tax crimes or fraud. Whyte got a life ban handed to him in very short order as Ogilvie attempted to divert attention away from his own and Murray’s role . The lack of responsible oversight from the SFA is frightening , but not surprising

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YerevanPosted on3:25 am - Jun 11, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
June 11, 2014 at 2:25 am
3 0 Rate This

If Carlsberg did “Summaries of Sevco”……….

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YerevanPosted on3:48 am - Jun 11, 2014


Apologies in advance, but link is to the Record’s back page

http://twitpic.com/e5w427

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Blindsummit63Posted on4:01 am - Jun 11, 2014


Oh go on then, i will take Honduras.

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Tic 6709Posted on6:55 am - Jun 11, 2014


Twopanda’s World Cup bagsie as sponsored by Campbellsmoney.

Teams currently unselected:

Australia
Iran
Japan
Algeria
Nigeria
Honduras
Ecuador
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Greece
Russia
====================
I’ll have Bosnia Herzegovina, if they don’t win WC they might win Eurovision.

View Comment

upthehoopsPosted on7:16 am - Jun 11, 2014


So it seems the good ship Sevco is steering itself towards a release of shares to bring in £8M. I guess ‘Boydy’ will then be snapped up whether they can guarantee to end the season or not. Then again I suppose it’s just a case of straggling through until they win the top league in season 2016-2017, then stroll through the CL qualifiers into the group stages. That IS part of the plan they released a couple of months back, isn’t it?

View Comment

joburgt1mPosted on7:20 am - Jun 11, 2014


Uruguay for me plz

Got R100 on them at 30/1 (thats about 155 quid pay out) So 50 quid donation to TSFM if it comes in

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AyeRightNawPosted on8:23 am - Jun 11, 2014


Barcabhoy

“The torch of corporate malfeasance…”

Hat tip to you for a turn of phrase that captures precisely the reasons for the demise of the reputation of football governance here and abroad. Not just football come to think of it but almost all governance bodies seem to be similarly afflicted by a failure to do the right thing in the name of the many rather than the few.

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