.. and why sites like SFM matter.
When SFM blasted off in 2012, we had a fair idea that Scottish Football had not only veered violently off the rails,but that it had done so deliberately.
Our intention was to try to help – in some small way – to steer it towards a straighter track, and to see it restored as a sporting institution and spectacle worthy of sporting principles. To see integrity restored to our national sport, to see honesty, fairness and adherence to both the laws of the game and land.
Of course we didn’t know what route our own journey would take, even although we were clear about the destination. What we did know about the journey was that no matter the route, the first leg started outside our own front door.
Who knew we would be taken on a magical mystery tour, blindfolded, spun around a few times, but still find ourselves at that front door. Via the road less traveled, the high road, low road and an endless series of shortcuts and wrong turns we hadn’t moved an inch.
On every stage of the “journey” the SFA, the SPL, and their quasi-legal tribunals & inquiries ducked and dived, twisted and bent the truth, and aided and abetted the greatest scam in the history of UK sport.
Newly coined idioms emerged; “Imperfect registrations”, “boiler-room subsidiary”, “emerged from liquidation”, “ethereal entity”, – and the real doozy; “other clubs could also have broken the tax laws had they wished” – all in an effort to;
1. pretend that what happened had not happened, that cheating was fair, that the rights of one football club were not enshrined in law but decreed by the heavens;
2. hope against hope that the rest of us had gone stark raving bonkers and would accept the “Santa is alive” fallacy as truth.
The facts were;
- That Rangers, having been subjected to the ignominy of administration, had now entered liquidation, leaving behind a mountain of debts, the vast majority of which were underwritten by us, by the taxpaying public.
- That almost £100m of funds was denied to the exchequer as the first ever nationalised football club, bought and paid for by the people of the UK, slid into oblivion, a trail of devastation in its wake.
- That in the course of that calamitous conduct of business, the SFA and the SPL were given false and incomplete information about the nature of players’ contracts. This in order to cover up a tax scheme that was (according to the man who devised it) operated incorrectly and thus unawfully.
Every football club in Scotland and their fans were cheated by a club which quite simply refused to play by the rules – even as the noose around its neck was being pulled ever tighter due to HMRC and Lloyd’s Banking Group taking steps to erect buffers ahead of the onrushing gravy train.
The result was that 140 years of history came to an end; an insatiable hunger for success ironically bringing about the ultimate and irreversible failure of a Scottish institution.
Not for them though, the recognition that they had transgressed. “It wasn’t Rangers – it was Craig White” was the cry.
I’m sure Hearts supporters in 1965 might have said the same about Willie Wallace after he missed a sitter in the final league match against Kilmarnock at Tynecastle. Had he scored, Hearts would have won the league, so Hearts should, by the RFC logic, claim that title anyway. Likewise Celtic fans could have pointed a finger at Georgios Samaras when his penalty miss at Ibrox lost them the league.
More facts: every football club in the world is the sum of its parts, onfield and off. We take the good that people do for our clubs and celebrate them. We have no right to cherry pick and ignore the consequences when people screw up.
Footballers – and administrators – are often gifted individuals given to moments of blinding inspiration which benefits their clubs. They are also often prone to reckless behaviours, the consequences of which we all have to bear. Murray’s knack of talking money out of trees and his reckless and irresponsible practices gave Rangers huge success, but that behaviour also – perhaps inevitably – led to the appointment with the buffers mentioned above.
The good and the bad. Both sides of the same coin, inseparable, inevitable, and there is no choice but to accept the whole package, not just the good bits.
In the circumstances, the hostility towards the old club was understandable. It was always a given that Celtic fans were unlikely to cut them slack as they headed towards an ignominious end.
However, had there been contrition, an acknowledgement of wrongs and some humility in response to talk of consequences, fans of other clubs outside of the Old Firm bubble may have extended some sympathy. But there was none of this. Instead, denial, arrogance, blaming others (“kicking us when we are down”, “who are these people?”) and a pugilistic reaction to the very idea of punishment. The outcome was an absence of sympathy for the plight of RFC.
Let’s revisit this; on an industrial scale, Rangers misrepresented (accidentally if you believe that the board of a PLC was comprised exclusively of halfwits and individuals unable to bite their own fingers) crucial information regarding compliance with registration rules, They subsequently withheld evidence from multiple enquiries into their conduct over these registration rules.
As far back as 1996, Rangers PAYE affairs were being investigated by HMRC and incurring penalties (not a very well publicised event).
Then, for more than a decade, principally through the 2000s they failed to comply with taxation statutes and with crucially important (not merely bureaucratic) SFA rules designed to preserve the intergity of football as a sport. They cheated the revenue out of millions and the fans of every club in Scotland out of their aspirations for their own clubs.
Rangers however were still box-office, and there were 50,000 fans providing a market for the product the now extinct club had provided through the decades. Surely someone would step in and take up the Rangers cause? Surely those people would eschew the catastrophic errors of judgement that had resulted in the economic and existential demise of the original club? Surely they would also acknowledge those mistakes in an effort to convince the clubs and fans they had wronged that this was an organisation that recognised the interdependence of sporting activity?
Surely.
But no. Sadly, no.
Even then though, that matters little.
Why? Because the sins of the old Rangers cannot be visited on the new. The behavior of the new club is a matter for a different argument, but it isn’t relevant in a legal or regulatory sense to the old club. Legally or morally there is nothing you can do to them to ensure that a repeat of the same spivish behaviour does not occur.
So why the fuss? Why the six years of relentless campaigning by SFM and dozens of other football sites?
Because it does matter that the authorities themselves – including all the other clubs – and the MSM have gone out of their way to cover it all up.
No-one at the SFA will talk to fans who have provided them with evidence of wrongdoing in the matter of the 2011 Euro licence. No one will address the witholding of evidence from the LNS enquiry, nor the false premise upon which it arrived at some of its conclusions, nor the mysteriously shifting goalposts of the period investigated by the LNS enquiry, nor the acid-flashback consciousness of the newly arrived at – and totally irregular and unlawful – “imperfect registration” status.
What still requires to be done is to root out those who have enabled the big lie. We need to hold accountable those who have sought to bury evidence, to dispense with logic and to treat fans with contempt and ridicule when legitimate concerns are raised.
We need to replace those people with people of integrity, folk who love the game as much as we do, people who will not yield to intimidation or the dog-whistle.
There are foot thick rule-books in place in football, and the authorities have plummeted into the Asimovian depths of a regulatory Fantastic Voyage to circumvent those. The SFA Chief Executive even told our own John Clark that he would “do nothing” had he been presented with evidence of wrong doing (and he had been presented with such evidence).
Yet one simple rule would have saw the whole sorry escapade brought to a halt – the universal rule that requires people to show due respect and good faith to others.
As I said, we started this journey at our own front door. The authorities and their enablers in the media have been taking us on the Uber route for six years. But we still know the destination, and we will get there. The SFA, the SPFL and the MSM have been relentless in their dedication to half-truths and misdirection.
But the fans are even more relentless in their pursuit of truth and their determination to see our game returned to its status a a sport. That is why outlets like SFM are important. Not because we are any better than others, but because we give a voice to the people in the game who matter most – to the paying public of Scotland who turn up in numbers relatively greater than any other country in Europe. They need that voice. We are not going anywhere.
Darkbeforedawn 31st August 2018 at 23:50
Your stance is admirable but heres the rub, if you genuinely believe that you are following the same without getting into the debate, petition your club to honour the players tax debts as promised on the side contracts. Will be demoralising hailing your legends that were financially let down by the thing you are supporting.
GunnerB @ 23.17
Everyone who was around in 2012 saw with their own eyes what happened to RFC. Every newspaper and media outlet carried the same true story. It didn’t have to be invented because it actually happened. The story was dramatically changed almost overnight and to this day football pundits and media organisations continue to fall over themselves making sure they don’t say the wrong thing and give the game away. But its too late. Once upon a time today’s newspaper became tomorrow’s wrapper for a fish supper and the headlines disappeared soaked in salt and vinegar (or sauce). Now anyone with a bit of tech savvy can screen grab and save photos and articles which are there for anyone to bring out when outrageous claims are made. And of course there is a vast array of material from the likes of RTC, the late Paul McConville, PMGB, Mintys Lamb and SFM to delve into.
David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green and Stewart Regan have all scuttled off into the sunset. Others will follow. Who will be next? Only time will tell.
Darkbeforedawn 31st August 2018 at 23:50
'.Football will go on, whether those on this site partake or not it will go on. '
Football as a decidedly dodgy, sleazy, business may possibly carry on.
Football as a sport will not.
When the Governance body ( and that's a number of individual human beings [ and here I hawk and spit on them] , not some abstract, impersonal concept) of a sport has sold its soul for geld, the sport has gone.
Success is meaningless, if sporting honours are handed willy-nilly to clubs which have not earned them.
And there is absolutely no way in which TRFC Ltd , founded in 2012, could have earned any kind of sporting achievement recognition prior to 2012.
the monstrous lie that TRFC Ltd is the Glasgow Rangers of 1872 is an affront to the very idea of 'Sport'.
That lie owes its origin not to some individual cheat of a competitor ( as in a drug-taking athlete, cyclist, swimmer , or other individual sports competitor) but to the very governance body of the sport;and that signals the end of true, honest, sporting competition.
I go now to bed, serene and calm
There will be others tonight , or any night,who will not, could not possibly, sleep as calmly.
Unlike them, I have not abused my office to pervert a sport, I have not tried to cheat the taxman, I have not lied about my entitlement to the sporting merits of others, I have not written about MBMBs ( remember that?), and I have not evangelically partaken of lamb, succulent or otherwise.
There was a very interesting item on radio today. It was about the fact that at least 70 individuals were convicted of treason here in the UK during the Second World War.
A sports governance body that perverts the vey sport that they govern is , in effect, as despicable as those traitors.
Maybe even more so, because they sold their souls not for the sake of high political principle, but to cravenly accommodate a newly created football club's wishes.
May they never have a quiet night's rest, those particular human beings who so betrayed Scottish Football.
Ex Ludo 1st September 2018 at 00:25
'..Everyone who was around in 2012 saw with their own eyes what happened to RFC. Every newspaper and media outlet carried the same true story. It didn’t have to be invented because it actually happened.'
____________________________
'Because it actually happened'.
Of course it did.
Rangers football Club of 1872 went into Liquidation.
Craig Whyte's 'Wavetower'/Rangers Football Group Ltd who owned the club did NOT go into liquidation, but Rangers FC plc did, and lost its entitlement to participate in Scottish Professional football, like many another football club that has gone bust.
( as an aside, is there anyone on this blog who is a student studying 'jounalism'?
I'd love to know what the world of academia has to say about the SMSM and its approach to reporting the saga, from day one!
Is there an honest lecturer anywhere?)
And now I am off to my ally cart.[ anybody know what my dad meant when he said that?]
All these names of people and different companies who are buying shares,” he said. “Have they been looked into? Do you know who they are? Are the genuine? They’re not chancers who are going to try take advantage of things?”
The above was quoted in the on-line version of the Herald in an article by Matthew Lindsay. An ordinary shareholder asked this question and it was answered by James Blair.
“I can assure you we have looked into every one of the individuals and spoken to every one of them and they are there to support the club,”
Well at least one person had the bravery to ask such a question. The lone voice crying in the wilderness?
The answer is interesting in that the company secretary used the words “support the club” I believe he’s trying to reignite that debate we used to have here?
So can I take it the £12m June share issue is pretty much a stick on for September as it will effectively be private deals and all the buyer has to do is pay the PLC and get issued with the shares.
Could someone clarify something for me re the share issue?
Are these truly 'new' shares (at 20p) or are they unissued shares from the original flotation (at 70p, discounted to 20p) that are now being offered/taken up?
Thanks in anticipation.
Homunculus.09.30
Pretty much so. The required forms will be sent to Companies House followed by the issuing of share certificates to the shareholders Finally.instruct the required updates to the register of members and register of allotments and include the new shareholdings in the accounts for the period.
Darkbeforedawn 31st August 2018 at 23:50
Gunnerb, I admire your stance and your principles. But in turn your and your children’s/grandchildren’s children will be replaced by other season ticket holders. The game tomorrow is a sell out. Football will go on, whether those on this site partake or not it will go on
===============================
I have to say I have often questioned whether it would be better to give up my Celtic season ticket but why should I let a corrupt SFA and media spoil me watching my club who have broken no rules and shafted no-one for tens of millions. I still live in hope that justice will eventually be served on at least some of the guilty. Exposing corruption and getting the authorities to accept it can take many years as we know, but it can be done. It's never easy when the media don't want to know, and when I heard a BBC pundit correct himself the other night by saying "David Murray, sorry Sir David Murray" it shows how craven they are. This is a man who has shafted the state for almost a billion pounds in unpaid debt to a state owned bank and they still fall over themselves to address him 'Sir'.
slimjim
1st September 2018 at 11:27
===========================================
You don't happen to know if Club1872 will still be the second largest shareholder once their holding is diluted.
Aitken Susan Aitken @SusaninLangside For what it’s worth (though shouldn’t have to say this) I have no personal football affiliations. Football matters to me because it matters to Glasgow. Rangers & Celtic are important Glasgow businesses & brands. That doesn’t mean they get to ride roughshod over communities
Billydug 1st September 2018 at 14:38
Aitken Susan Aitken @SusaninLangside For what it’s worth (though shouldn’t have to say this) I have no personal football affiliations. Football matters to me because it matters to Glasgow. Rangers & Celtic are important Glasgow businesses & brands. That doesn’t mean they get to ride roughshod over communities
==========================
No idea why she brought Celtic into this. They are not demanding the use of a public facility in order to line only their own pockets. However, it did remind me of the story when Celtic built the new North Stand and residents in the houses which still existed at the time complained it had affected their TV reception. Fergus McCann had a transmitter installed on the roof but at a meeting with residents they demanded financial compensation as well. Fergus agreed to pay them all £250 which was accepted. He told them to come to Celtic Park to receive their cheques, with proof of address…and their current TV licence! I am led to believe not all complainants turned up for their money!
Homunculus 14.24
Yes they would remain the 2nd largest shareholder although they would lose around 1% of their shareholding which currently stands at 10.71%.
Jingso – Yes they are new shares. They were agreed at the last AGM.
Susan Aitken is clearly losing the plot. She is accusing 4 politicians of exploiting sectarian division because they all disagree with the decision and process. 2 Catholics, 1 Muslim and 1 Protestant. You really couldnt make it up.
TheLawMan2
1st September 2018 at 15:12
Jingso – Yes they are new shares. They were agreed at the last AGM.
============================================
That's what I thought, the new shares were agreed, and dis-application of pre-emption was agreed, so why was the general meeting on Friday required.
Could the board not just have issued the shares.
TheLawMan2
1st September 2018 at 15:15
Susan Aitken is clearly losing the plot. She is accusing 4 politicians of exploiting sectarian division because they all disagree with the decision and process. 2 Catholics, 1 Muslim and 1 Protestant. You really couldnt make it up.
=============================================
Where has she done this, I haven't seen it.
More importantly, why did she feel the need to mention their religion.
Homunculus
http://i65.tinypic.com/35jglsk.jpg
TheLawMan2
1st September 2018 at 15:28
===========================================
Thanks, I hadn't seen that, though to be fair it was Anas Anwar who mentioned the religion of the people concerned. I wonder if he asked them what religion they were first.
I take it this is coming from her reply to Stewart Robertson's letter.
I have to say I really don't see what the big issue is.
Rangers already operate a fan zone, on their own property.
They have asked to use a local facility which they don't own.
The Community Council has said no.
So just continue with the fan zone where it is.
No its coming from her tweet today. You can see Anas replying to her. She accuses the 4 of them "exploiting sectarian division"
God only knows how she arrived that view.
“Susan Aitken is clearly losing the plot. She is accusing 4 politicians of exploiting sectarian division because they all disagree with the decision and process. 2 Catholics, 1 Muslim and 1 Protestant. You really couldnt make it up.”
perception is a wonderful thing. I didn’t read the same issues you did LM2. I though Aitken’s letter was a very good dismissal of what ever Stewart Robertson put in his letter – which we haven’t seen.
That this issue has been lept on by others for political motives is unarguable. That The Rangers support have deluged the council, elected members and official with sectarian bile is also demonstrable.
Trying to minimise the abuse directed a public officials when a decision goes against a company seeking to use public assets is poor form
TheLawMan2 1st September 2018 at 15:41
No its coming from her tweet today. You can see Anas replying to her. She accuses the 4 of them "exploiting sectarian division"
==========================================
Yes, I looked at the link you provided.
Then suggested that issue was a follow up and directly related to the letter, which seems to me to be a reasonable inference given her comments in the letter about the four individuals.
dom16 1st September 2018 at 15:41
I didn’t read the same issues you did LM2
_______________________________________________
Its nothing to do with the letter. She accused the 4 of them Directly on Twitter a few hours ago.
Anyone know why it is permitted for two teams with the same owners to be drawn in the same Europa League group, as has happened with the group Celtic are in? Surely there is potential for a massive conflict of interest.
She also tweeted this a couple of hours ago
"This is the full text of my letter to the CEO of Rangers FC. I stand 100% behind the decision to respect the concerns of the local community. All Rangers have been asked to do is improve community engagement. Their aggressive & highly personalised response has been shocking."
https://twitter.com/SusaninLangside/status/1035873409127903232
"The role of @FMcAveety @pauline4glasgow @AnasSarwar @ProfTomkins in knowingly exploiting sectarian division on this issue can’t be ignored. They are responsible for stoking the abuse directed at me, @SNPdavid & his family & Council officers. They bring shame on Glasgow politics."
Headline story in today's Times online. If this is true, then surely David Murray should have his Knighthood removed?
Tax avoiders blocked from honours in secret memo
‘Traffic light’ warnings seen for first time
Tax avoiders are being blacklisted by the authorities to prevent them from getting knighthoods and other honours, The Times can reveal. Celebrities who use controversial schemes to reduce their tax burden are being quietly identified by the taxman to block them from awards for public services…
upthehoops 1st September 2018 at 16:16
Whom do we write to "shop" him?
I see that Graham Spiers was also writing today in defence of those innocent players who unwittingly had a tax scheme foisted upon them.
Graham Spiers @GrahamSpiers 6h6 hours ago
Graham Spiers Retweeted fitbafan
I don’t go to the stake for non tax-payers. My point is, it was a system of payment foisted upon the players.
Graham Spiers added,
fitbafan @fitbafan
Graham Spiers fails to realise that HMRC don't usually accept ignorance as a defence. @GrahamSpiers
183 replies 3 retweets 18 likes
TheLawMan2 1st September 2018 at 15:51
Its nothing to do with the letter. She accused the 4 of them Directly on Twitter a few hours ago.
====================================
You then go on to quote her tweet
"The role of @FMcAveety @pauline4glasgow @AnasSarwar @ProfTomkins in knowingly exploiting sectarian division on this issue can’t be ignored. They are responsible for stoking the abuse directed at me, @SNPdavid & his family & Council officers. They bring shame on Glasgow politics."
====================================
Which part of "on this issue" doesn't relate to the substance of her letter?
Absolute garbage from Spiers.
If everything was above board why would they need a side letter and why would it have to be confidential.
No way was it a "fait accompli". Is he suggesting that if they said "No thanks I'd rather pay the proper tax" the club would have backed off from the deal. The whole point was for them to receive more than the club could afford if the proper tax was paid.
"Some sort of tax wheeze", do these people think if you talk rubbish like that it makes stealing from the UK exchequer ok.
He should be ashamed of himself.
Homunculus 1st September 2018 at 20:24
Speirs should refer to Alex McLeish he knew what was going down and it was to better Celtic in the wages, in fact Alex had one himself what better source to obtain an insight.
"I was concerned that it might lead to trouble"
Why was he concerned? As he is responsible for his own tax affairs why didn't he address those concerns with a tax advisor or with HMRC themselves. Why has he left it untouched.
He has admitted that the individual suspected it was dodgy but chose not to clear matters up therefore his plea of " it was only resting in my account" should not elicit sympathy from Speirs.
As for his suggestion that HMRC might go after players , there's no might about it , they will and they are.
Just read the Speirs article. OMG, what were you thinking Graham? Completely sold out on that. One might think there was going to be a a campaign to mitigate that particular disaster.
You reap what you sow. It has always been thus.
'It was only resting in my account', the Father Ted excuse! Love it!
I’m not one for conspiracy theories but I must say as soon as I saw that draw I thought something wasn’t right. What is the chances of the first time both teams are in the same competition they get drawn together? At a time when Red Bull are one of the biggest sponsors in world football? Are they lining up a deal to sponsor UEFA tournaments?
J, M & J. I’ve just been pointed in the direction of Graham Spiers’ piece. Outrageous. Working men and women pay their taxes; without choice nor challenge. And so they should. We all benefit from this. We may never agree on the structure, proportion or contribution; but nonetheless we pay. Screeds of headlines have been spent exposing lesser sums of tax evasion. Headlines full of outrage and condemnation, demanding removal of honours. In some cases, celebrating jail terms. You don’t have to wave a fluffy duster nor ride a horse to recall them. Neither do you have to drive a Carr. ‘Poor tax behaviour’ they often call it; mindful they (the scribblers) may never get that next interview. Carr was almost down on his knees begging forgiveness; after he got caught. Lester Piggot was awarded 3 years ‘on his knees’ for it. GRAHAM, please Point me in the direction of ‘the difference’ and afterwards I’ll point you in the direction of the proletariat. I can tell you (Graham Spiers) that 99% of the money spent on ticket sales in Scottish football has been taxed at source; save some of the prawn sandwich ‘watchers’. You’ll be telling me next that it’s completely appropriate that a former First Minister of Scotland is crowdfunding tax paid income from the electorate to defend an accusation of sexual misconduct. If you don’t qualify for legal aid; ask yourself why.
I never set out to politically slant this post; but why suddenly change your stance Graham? I hope you never have to depend upon publicly funded resources the way most of us have.
Darkbeforedawn 1st September 2018 at 23:21
'..I’m not one for conspiracy theories but I must say as soon as I saw that draw I thought something wasn’t right.'
+++++++++++++++++++++++
What I find extraordinary, Dbd, is the parallel between our Scottish experience and the wider UEFA experience.
Here, we have 39 senior professional football clubs happily accepting a degree of sporting ( and possibly criminal financial) cheating on the part our game's Governance boy,without kicking up a fuss.
Now, it would seem, the senior professional clubs in the whole of UEFA are happy to accept an arrangement which just reeks of the possibility of cheating!
I ask, what was in it for our Scottish clubs to sell their souls to the Big Lie?
And I now ask, what in God's name is in it for the general run of big clubs in Europe to allow such an obvious possibility of jiggery-feckin-pokery?
It's the kind of scenario that certain knights of the realm would have welcomed! Own two clubs drawn against each other in the same wee league, and influence that wee league by instructions from the touchline.
Seems to me that not nearly enough UEFA officials are going to jail.
In pretty much the same way that our 5-way Agreement governance body chaps have escaped ( so far!) any serious action against them.
I have every hope that they will not, in the end, escape.
And certainly they will not for the rest of their lives escape from the knowledge that they sold the soul of Scottish Football, even if outwardly they maintain some kind of innocent front.
They KNOW ,and bad cess to them.
Homunculus 1st September 2018 at 20:24
' No way was it a "fait accompli".
********************
There was at least one player who took serious advice and chose NOT to go the EBT way.
At the time, I thought it was Neil McCann, and I warmed to the man!
But I was corrected on that point.
I now can't remember who the sensible chap was, who refused payment of remuneration via an EBT.
And, ( to Mr Speirs) the option to refuse was available to every wee tax-dodging tyke who signed up to the EBT scheme, including the present Manager of the national team.
It's a sign of the rottenness of the SMSM , and of the skewed moral values of Speirs, that he even considers trying to defend the tax cheats.
Honest to God! The sheer bloody effrontery of it!
John Clark 2nd September 2018 at 00:45
I now can't remember who the sensible chap was, who refused payment of remuneration via an EBT.
==============================
I don't know if I'm referring to the same person, but Arthur Numan was the one player with an EBT that didn't want to take a loan. He was looking for the money to be invested for a return, by the trustees.
As timing would have it, i was out for dinner last night with a senior HMRC employee, a tax advisor and 2 auditors (plus a few others). For the record, they were all English and have no "skin in the game" but they are all very familiar with the Rangers case as its their job obviously to keep up to date with current and important rulings.
None of them were aware of the Trident Trust letter so i outlined what it had said and the view of the players being chased. The HMRC guy said he didnt think that would be possible due to the statute of limitations. He said that whilst the investigation on the scheme may have ticked all the boxes and met the statute, any penalty on the employees would be outwith the 6 years and that there was no suggestion that the players have knowingly made false declarations. The engagement letter with the Murray Group would not cover or remove the rights of the individuals who would all have submitted self assessments annually.
The tax advisor said that would be his "defence" or "recommendation" to his clients in that situation and that he felt Trident were simply covering their bottoms.
The auditors also agreed however pointed to a few cases on another well known tax avoidance scheme where the Film companies had been pursued then the individuals are now being chased, some of which are outwith the 6 years. The HMRC guy said the difference on these schemes is that the individuals are all "partners" in the "firm" and therefore the engagement letter against a firm would apply to all partners in that situation.
Anyways, thought i would share that given its topical. Please note of course, this was simply a conversation over a few drinks at one side of the table and as above, although these guys know the situation, none of them are involved so clearly there could be other unknown aspects at play. What they said though, made sense to me.
Please also note, no inferences into this being right or wrong should be read into what they have said. As above, they have no skin in the game.
TheLawMan2
2nd September 2018 at 06:36
=====================================
Clearly I don't know who made up this august group you coincidentally dined with, however did you point out to them that this was not a normal tax debt and was in fact a multi-million pound aggressive tax-avoidance scheme. Which had gone through every stage of the appeal system, up to and including the Supreme Court. It had in fact led to a fundamental change in UK tax law making all disguised remuneration schemes subject to tax, whatever the circumstances.
Let's just clear the statute of limitations thing up, as that is fundamental to what you were told
Not from HMRC from PWC
"The normal time limit for making assessments is four years following the end of the tax year. This is termed a 'discovery' assessment. The time limit for making an assessment on a person in a case involving a loss of income tax brought about 'carelessly' by that person is six years following the end of the tax year. The time limit for making an assessment on a person in a case involving a loss of income tax brought about deliberately by that person is 20 years following the end of the tax year."
HMRC are chasing up disguised remuneration cases, it is as simple as that.
Here is what they are saying about what is effectively penalties, never mind getting back the tax plus interest.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hmrc-issue-briefing-disguised-remuneration-charge-on-loans/hmrc-issue-briefing-disguised-remuneration-charge-on-loans
1. Disguised remuneration
Disguised remuneration schemes are tax avoidance arrangements that cost the Exchequer hundreds of millions of pounds each year.
They seek to avoid Income Tax and National Insurance contributions by paying scheme users their income in the form of loans instead of ordinary remuneration.
The loans are provided on terms that mean they are unlikely to be repaid, so they are no different to normal income and are taxable.
2. The charge on disguised remuneration loans
The charge on outstanding disguised remuneration loans, known as the 2019 loan charge, was announced at Budget 2016 and was introduced in the Finance Act (No 2) 2017.
The charge will apply to all loans made since 6 April 1999 if they are still outstanding on 5 April 2019. The charge will not arise on outstanding loans if the individual has agreed a settlement with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) under existing law before 5 April 2019.
John Clark 00.45
"There was at least one player who took serious advice and chose not to go the ebt way"
I think the player concerned was Giovanni Van Bronckhorst John. A very talented player who wasn't your stereotypical footballer, preferring to visit art galleries and museums rather than bars and clubs.
They knew all the details and I more than covered the reasoning behind their view on statute of limitations.
https://twitter.com/russabercrombie/status/1035524982900776961?s=20
The Kilmarnock manager speaking out about stuff.
Oh dear, Graham Spiers will need to make sure all his tax affairs are squeaky clean, he has just flagged himself as a “person of interest to” HMRC
https://www.withersworldwide.com/en-gb/hmrc-continue-to-crack-down-on-tax-avoidance-and-tax-evasion
https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/tax-evasion-and-avoidance
Homunculus 2nd September 2018 at 06:36
Spot on
HMRC :-
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hmrc-issue-briefing-disguised-remuneration-charge-on-loans/hmrc-issue-briefing-disguised-remuneration-charge-on-loans
A good reason not to trust or buy a newspaper.
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/13221/anthony-fletcher-how-daily-record-lied-about-me-and-didnt-get-away-it
Hat tip
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/09/01/how-succulent-lamb-made-a-newspaper-unwell/
UK national newspaper circulation figures for July 2018 (source: ABC):
Daily Record 124,034 -13.65
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5vdid5q9jpnihll/Circling%20the%20drain.jpg?dl=0
I see Police Scotland appropriated my nom de blog for their safety campaign prior to the big game today. I really should have applied for a trade mark.
I noticed this repeated in a number of sources last week.
It may just be a grouping of the two teams – but it’s the first time since the ‘resurrection’ that I’ve seen reference to a joint representation’ of the entities.
From “Hampden or Murrayfield? Which venue will the Scottish FA choose?”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45333600
“How have we reached this point?
The Scottish FA has an option to renew their lease on Hampden – the national team's home since 1906 – but they commissioned a feasibility study to assess all the options.
After rejecting a proposal in January from Celtic and Rangers to share hosting of internationals and domestic cup matches, the choice boiled down to remaining at Hampden beyond 2020 or moving to Murrayfield.“
TheLawMan2 2nd September 2018 at 09:22
I appreciate you have, in good faith, just recounted what was discussed in what I hope was an enjoyable evening and have said that you weren't really making comment on who is right or wrong.
However when it comes to EBT's we have have heard plenty of these types of stories trying to soften the blow of what was an industrial scale dodgy tax avoidance scheme, poorly administered by those involved and sold on to greedy men who were already being paid good money.
Each time as matters have progressed and it has come to the crunch Hector has won the day and he clearly has a hard-on for the Rangers case and is using it an exemplar to others.
I can't see anything different happening this time and Hector will once again be knocking on doors sometime soon.
Yon dinner.
Maybe all these captains of industry had "no skin in the game" but at least one person at the table did.
To be fair on LawMan2 he was out to dinner with a group of friends and still had the dedication to be here at about half six in the morning to post their opinions.
Unless of course this dinner was on foreign shores, then there would obviously be the time difference.
Compare and contrast .
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1036025973798588417
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKuLtLXl7FI
Referees , eh ? Wouldn't you just love to shake them warmly by the neck ?
Evened itself out eventually .
Homunculus 2nd September 2018 at 18:32
A good thing Lm2 respected his dinner mates confidentiality. Sparing his blushes and preventing him from picking up his P45 the morra.
“TheLawMan2 2nd September 2018 at 09:22
They knew all the details and I more than covered the reasoning behind their view on statute of limitations.”
Thomson on BBC sportscene seems content enough, you would think his worries were all covered. My licence is due, not really keen on paying this one .
I often find myself venting about the SMSM on here so I'm afraid it's that time again!
The top table is headed by Hearts with maximum points, yet we hear little about that. Behind them by 7 points away back in 7th place are Rangers. In between there is Celtic on 9 points, then Kilmarnock, Livingston, and St Johnstone on 7 points each, then Hibs above Rangers on goal difference on 5 points. Rangers were totally outclassed yesterday by Celtic and the gulf between the teams looked as big as it has at any other time since Rangers entered the top league.
Yet all we have had endlessly rammed down our throats for weeks on end is how good Rangers are, what a brilliant start to the season they have made, and how they are ready to take the title from Celtic, who for the same amount of weeks have been portrayed as being in crisis at every level of the club. In actual fact this is the worst start to a league season any Rangers team has made since 1989.
What absolute clowns the media look this morning, but I doubt things will change, and if I was a Hearts fan I would be be mightily hacked off at the lack of coverage such an excellent start to the season is getting.
The importance of a comma!
Alan Pattullo's piece in today's printed 'Scotsman' has this:
"Only 800 away fans allowed in as well as a studied determination to avoid even mentioning the opposition's name, it seems Celtic would prefer to not have to recognise their rivals from across the city at all.
And for long stages yesterday , they did not have to. There really was only one team in it-and it wasn't Rangers, who Celtic were playing yesterday."
Pattullo clearly feels aggrieved that the visiting club were not announced by name , but merely as 'today's visitors’.
He should be content that they were not given their full title "The Rangers FC Ltd , of 2012"
I hope Celtic plc will continue to distance itself from the frantic media attempts to pretend that the 'Old Firm' tag has any validity or lends support to the desperate desire for the Big Lie to be accepted.
John Clark 3rd September 2018 at 08:25
" Scotsman' has this "
Daily star has this Rogics goal.
By Simon Green / Published 3rd September 2018Speaking after the match, Gerrard bemoaned the referee for allowing Tom Rogic’s goal to stand, after he appeared to chop down Ryan Jack in the build up.
Lazy Lazy
BIgboab2016 your graphic of last evening is wrong. The assumption it makes is that the EBT was paid gross of tax not net. For example taking the bankrupt one's 2.5m as gross at 40% the tax due is £1m however if the 2.5m is net that would mean that tax would be due on 4.17m which is 1.67m – no difference to the bankrupt fellow but for others might be a little more pain.
Also for Spiers example he should still have tax to pay but at least he has the cash there for it.
bfbpuzzled
3rd September 2018 at 11:02
===================================
Absolutely, in addition it takes no account of any interest, which has to be included. This is not a discretionary amount, the law says it will be charged.
It might also be worth considering if anyone was still receiving payments after the introduction of the 50% rate, however the players payments were probably all before that as it was introduced in 2010.
I didn't watch the "Definitely not the Old Firm" match yesterday but from reports it seems like a comfortable victory for Celtic providing some evidence that the famous "gap" has perhaps not closed as much as some had suspected.
The safety issue at the start is a massive concern, with the horrific incidents that have happened at football games in the past it is simply unacceptable that the police could allow a situation where a crush could happen even on such a thankfully minor scale.
Hopefully the authorities, Police Scotland and Celtic are holding an urgent review to ensure this never happens again.
I thought the decision to restrict Sevco to 800 tickets was to align it with other visiting supports? (Im aware it was also essentially retaliatory for the similar move at Ibrox).
Point being other than additional police resource to match the larger than normal crowd were the arrangements for fan access in terms of who walks where not now the same as any other match?
Nick 3rd September 2018 at 11:20
The safety issue at the start is a massive concern, with the horrific incidents that have happened at football games in the past it is simply unacceptable that the police could allow a situation where a crush could happen even on such a thankfully minor scale.
Hopefully the authorities, Police Scotland and Celtic are holding an urgent review to ensure this never happens again.
===========================
Firstly it must be said that such an incident has never happened at the rebuilt Celtic Park before among many 60,000 crowds and many of that particular fixture. So clearly something was changed yesterday, and there had better not be any people looking after their own backs rather than learning the lessons from a significant near miss, and putting actions in place to prevent a recurrence. I spoke to one fan at the game yesterday who was caught up in it and he said it was a frightening experience.
Who would have thought the "Gerrard revolution", was just spin?
Homunculus
Are there are NI implications on such high salaries? If so that would also inflate the sums due.
Time and compound interest are the way to riches or penury depending if in of out of one's accounts.
upthehoops 3rd September 2018 at 12:05
Nick 3rd September 2018 at 11:20
While not knowing the exact issues at Celtic Park yesterday I do note that from my experience at Tynecastle it is still the case that far too many fans think they are going to manage to get into a stadium and seated for kick-off when they rock up at 2:55.
We got to the ground at 2:35 on Saturday and queuing on street back from the turnstiles had already started, therefore not surprised still plenty of fans streaming in by the time Naismith's penalty hit the back of the net for the league leaders.
One hic-up at a turnstile or two and the whole thing can easily go to pot.
bfbpuzzled 3rd September 2018 at 11:02
BIgboab2016 your graphic of last evening is wrong
————————————————————
Perhaps not surprising:-
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/former-rangers-stars-face-ruin-7659540
bfbpuzzled
3rd September 2018 at 12:39
==============================
An excellent point, if they were not paying tax on receipt of the "loans" it is reasonable to infer that they weren't making NI contributions either.
I suppose that would depend on the arrangement between the player and the club. Were they considered self-employed on a contract, were they employees for tax and NI purposes, at what point should NI be deducted, if at all and at what rate.
Bottom line, like you I suspect there are problems with their NI contributions as well.
Upthehoops, Rangers never turned up yesterday in what has been our worst performance in 13 games.
Rangers HAVE had a brilliant start to the season and 1 poor performance and result doesn't change that.
Statistically it may be the "worst start" since 1989 but stats often hide the truth. Away to Aberdeen, Celtic and Motherwell in our first 4 games is as tough as it gets. If we pick up 5 points in our next 4 games then I will reconsider that view.
One game, a season does not make. No panic button here.
I think the international break has came at the right time to help with a recharge. The SFA probably fixed that to help us again.
PS. Can you link me to all these papers saying Rangers are going to win the league. Not read much of that.
These players who knew nothing of their beneficial tax arrangements with (original) Rangers should seek advice from m'learned friends about suing their agents and/or accountants. I am sure their agents got 10% (or whatever) of the gross amount of their contracts (no sideletters for them I am sure) and I assume the accountants were well-paid and in a position to give advice on tax-related issues as well as simply prepare tax returns…
Those poor wee (succulent) lambs that had these tax-dodges forced upon them should have some redress on their professional advisors… unless of course they knew all along what they were doing, in which case, to use a well-worn phrase on here: "Hell mend them".
It is about time they were made to pay what they are due they have gotten away with this for far to long. The thing they had going for them was that it was the taxman they owed and the taxman will come and go a little. They were told and had a time limit to come forward to either pay what they were due or work out some form of payment schedule so it's their own fault. As a young man I fell foul of the vat man I had no idea at that time that I should have been registered to pay vat I stupidly thought that is what I have an accountant for they told me straight from the off ignorance is no defence this is the amount you owe you have until this date to pay it after that date this is how much daily interest will be added long story short I was literally left with the clothes on my back my tools and van but I learned from it next time I had a business I registered for vat before I even started they said you don't have to register at this time however it was the best thing to do as if I was paying vat and didn't need to then I would get it back in time. I just hope that they do not find some way to weasel out of it.
upthehoops 3rd September 2018 at 12:05
Sorry to disagree , but I witnessed the problem in that area at Scotland v ROI . Being unfamiliar with the stadium , we followed the stewards' instructions , only to find ourselves having to force our way past an oncoming queue so that we could turn and join it at its end .When the fans complained to the police , they were directed to the stewards , who had no control . It's a severely confined space , especially for people who aren't used to buoyant crowds . Another case of fans being treated with contempt by the authorities . ( I am assuming I have the right area of the ground .).