.. and why sites like SFM matter.
When SFM blasted off in 2012, we had a fair idea that Scottish Football had not only veered violently off the rails,but that it had done so deliberately.
Our intention was to try to help – in some small way – to steer it towards a straighter track, and to see it restored as a sporting institution and spectacle worthy of sporting principles. To see integrity restored to our national sport, to see honesty, fairness and adherence to both the laws of the game and land.
Of course we didn’t know what route our own journey would take, even although we were clear about the destination. What we did know about the journey was that no matter the route, the first leg started outside our own front door.
Who knew we would be taken on a magical mystery tour, blindfolded, spun around a few times, but still find ourselves at that front door. Via the road less traveled, the high road, low road and an endless series of shortcuts and wrong turns we hadn’t moved an inch.
On every stage of the “journey” the SFA, the SPL, and their quasi-legal tribunals & inquiries ducked and dived, twisted and bent the truth, and aided and abetted the greatest scam in the history of UK sport.
Newly coined idioms emerged; “Imperfect registrations”, “boiler-room subsidiary”, “emerged from liquidation”, “ethereal entity”, – and the real doozy; “other clubs could also have broken the tax laws had they wished” – all in an effort to;
1. pretend that what happened had not happened, that cheating was fair, that the rights of one football club were not enshrined in law but decreed by the heavens;
2. hope against hope that the rest of us had gone stark raving bonkers and would accept the “Santa is alive” fallacy as truth.
The facts were;
- That Rangers, having been subjected to the ignominy of administration, had now entered liquidation, leaving behind a mountain of debts, the vast majority of which were underwritten by us, by the taxpaying public.
- That almost £100m of funds was denied to the exchequer as the first ever nationalised football club, bought and paid for by the people of the UK, slid into oblivion, a trail of devastation in its wake.
- That in the course of that calamitous conduct of business, the SFA and the SPL were given false and incomplete information about the nature of players’ contracts. This in order to cover up a tax scheme that was (according to the man who devised it) operated incorrectly and thus unawfully.
Every football club in Scotland and their fans were cheated by a club which quite simply refused to play by the rules – even as the noose around its neck was being pulled ever tighter due to HMRC and Lloyd’s Banking Group taking steps to erect buffers ahead of the onrushing gravy train.
The result was that 140 years of history came to an end; an insatiable hunger for success ironically bringing about the ultimate and irreversible failure of a Scottish institution.
Not for them though, the recognition that they had transgressed. “It wasn’t Rangers – it was Craig White” was the cry.
I’m sure Hearts supporters in 1965 might have said the same about Willie Wallace after he missed a sitter in the final league match against Kilmarnock at Tynecastle. Had he scored, Hearts would have won the league, so Hearts should, by the RFC logic, claim that title anyway. Likewise Celtic fans could have pointed a finger at Georgios Samaras when his penalty miss at Ibrox lost them the league.
More facts: every football club in the world is the sum of its parts, onfield and off. We take the good that people do for our clubs and celebrate them. We have no right to cherry pick and ignore the consequences when people screw up.
Footballers – and administrators – are often gifted individuals given to moments of blinding inspiration which benefits their clubs. They are also often prone to reckless behaviours, the consequences of which we all have to bear. Murray’s knack of talking money out of trees and his reckless and irresponsible practices gave Rangers huge success, but that behaviour also – perhaps inevitably – led to the appointment with the buffers mentioned above.
The good and the bad. Both sides of the same coin, inseparable, inevitable, and there is no choice but to accept the whole package, not just the good bits.
In the circumstances, the hostility towards the old club was understandable. It was always a given that Celtic fans were unlikely to cut them slack as they headed towards an ignominious end.
However, had there been contrition, an acknowledgement of wrongs and some humility in response to talk of consequences, fans of other clubs outside of the Old Firm bubble may have extended some sympathy. But there was none of this. Instead, denial, arrogance, blaming others (“kicking us when we are down”, “who are these people?”) and a pugilistic reaction to the very idea of punishment. The outcome was an absence of sympathy for the plight of RFC.
Let’s revisit this; on an industrial scale, Rangers misrepresented (accidentally if you believe that the board of a PLC was comprised exclusively of halfwits and individuals unable to bite their own fingers) crucial information regarding compliance with registration rules, They subsequently withheld evidence from multiple enquiries into their conduct over these registration rules.
As far back as 1996, Rangers PAYE affairs were being investigated by HMRC and incurring penalties (not a very well publicised event).
Then, for more than a decade, principally through the 2000s they failed to comply with taxation statutes and with crucially important (not merely bureaucratic) SFA rules designed to preserve the intergity of football as a sport. They cheated the revenue out of millions and the fans of every club in Scotland out of their aspirations for their own clubs.
Rangers however were still box-office, and there were 50,000 fans providing a market for the product the now extinct club had provided through the decades. Surely someone would step in and take up the Rangers cause? Surely those people would eschew the catastrophic errors of judgement that had resulted in the economic and existential demise of the original club? Surely they would also acknowledge those mistakes in an effort to convince the clubs and fans they had wronged that this was an organisation that recognised the interdependence of sporting activity?
Surely.
But no. Sadly, no.
Even then though, that matters little.
Why? Because the sins of the old Rangers cannot be visited on the new. The behavior of the new club is a matter for a different argument, but it isn’t relevant in a legal or regulatory sense to the old club. Legally or morally there is nothing you can do to them to ensure that a repeat of the same spivish behaviour does not occur.
So why the fuss? Why the six years of relentless campaigning by SFM and dozens of other football sites?
Because it does matter that the authorities themselves – including all the other clubs – and the MSM have gone out of their way to cover it all up.
No-one at the SFA will talk to fans who have provided them with evidence of wrongdoing in the matter of the 2011 Euro licence. No one will address the witholding of evidence from the LNS enquiry, nor the false premise upon which it arrived at some of its conclusions, nor the mysteriously shifting goalposts of the period investigated by the LNS enquiry, nor the acid-flashback consciousness of the newly arrived at – and totally irregular and unlawful – “imperfect registration” status.
What still requires to be done is to root out those who have enabled the big lie. We need to hold accountable those who have sought to bury evidence, to dispense with logic and to treat fans with contempt and ridicule when legitimate concerns are raised.
We need to replace those people with people of integrity, folk who love the game as much as we do, people who will not yield to intimidation or the dog-whistle.
There are foot thick rule-books in place in football, and the authorities have plummeted into the Asimovian depths of a regulatory Fantastic Voyage to circumvent those. The SFA Chief Executive even told our own John Clark that he would “do nothing” had he been presented with evidence of wrong doing (and he had been presented with such evidence).
Yet one simple rule would have saw the whole sorry escapade brought to a halt – the universal rule that requires people to show due respect and good faith to others.
As I said, we started this journey at our own front door. The authorities and their enablers in the media have been taking us on the Uber route for six years. But we still know the destination, and we will get there. The SFA, the SPFL and the MSM have been relentless in their dedication to half-truths and misdirection.
But the fans are even more relentless in their pursuit of truth and their determination to see our game returned to its status a a sport. That is why outlets like SFM are important. Not because we are any better than others, but because we give a voice to the people in the game who matter most – to the paying public of Scotland who turn up in numbers relatively greater than any other country in Europe. They need that voice. We are not going anywhere.
Ex Ludo
I was referring to the total paid by Dave King in respect of the 41 counts of contravening the income tax act he accepted liability for. Each one carried a jail sentence of two years or a fine of around £4500.
The figure you refer to is for the total amount of tax he paid.
SARS demand was for £180 million, DK offered £3 million. Eventually a figure of £42 million was agreed upon by both parties. From memory i believe he also made a one off payment of roughly 500k toward the Asset Recovery Unit or something similarly named..
Ex Ludo 5th September 2018 at 19:04
Slim Jim 16.55
To stay out of jail King had to pay up R706.7 million which was his tax debt and he was fined R3.2 million on top of that.
The R3.2m equates closer to £186k quoted by Slim Jim but the main thrust of the whole debacle is that he was trying to 'steal' and keep circa £35-£40m from the SA state.
Wouldn't trust King to go down the road and buy me a pint of milk, let alone be entrusted with a 'Scottish Institution' and being anywhere near Scottish Football.
Jimmy Bones 5th September 2018 at 07:56
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Re posting as my submission seems to have been lost ?
To go back to the SFA decision today –
Auldheid – some time ago you wrote a short piece about “outsourcing” SPFL refereeing to reduce the (possibly) malign influence of the current refereeing fraternity.
====================
Here is an extract suggesting an arrangement where the SFA become the servers of the SFA not the masters.
Note the word “service” for this is the way much of what the SFA do should be viewed. The SFA provide a number of services to the clubs who play in Scotland. They should not be seen as their masters but their servants or in modern terms the clubs are the customers and the SFA the service providers. This change of attitude would allow competition to provide such services to enter the scene and so improve them. This would be a huge cultural change but it has to start somewhere and all the above mentioned “services” would be prime candidates.
The Referee Service
<
p style=”margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px”>This would be split with the SFA doing the recruitment, training and match appointments (having taken the nature of the game to be officiated into account). However the monitoring and evaluation would be the province of the customer, using referees or ex refs from anywhere to mark to a standard set by the customer. This spilt of responsibilities would prevent any one person being in a position to exert his own influence on referees as a result of being part of the appointment and evaluation process. It would safeguard the SFA from the kind of suspicion that led to the referees’ strike and lead to a higher standard of referee because the customer would be setting the standard not the supplier (as happens everywhere in business but football) If it did not, it would free the SPL/SL to hire their own referees from wherever they could get them. A bit of competition never did anybody any harm and that includes our referees who, if they reached higher standards, would be in more demand outside Scotland.
Ex Ludo, Wottpi, SJ
There are some in the media and probably one or two posters who would have you believe that this was a "favourable settlement" for King and that he had just been a naughty boy in not paying his taxes.
SJ – I have seen an argument previously that King was "only" fined £186k or ZAR706m for his misdemeanours. Do you believe that King would have stayed out of jail if he hadn't agreed the £40m+ payment to SARS as part of his plea bargain?
He was an extremely lucky laddie not to face fraud charges, that in all probability would have seen him jailed, yet some would still view his latest wheeze to avoid the full implications of the TOP/CoS rulings as "an absolute master stroke".
The last part of the sanctions against King that you couldn't quite remember was a payment to the "Criminal Asset Recovery Fund".
“King said his experience should serve as an example to taxpayers who found themselves in a similar position with Sars.
“Rather seek early resolution and co-operate with Sars when asked by them to explain your tax affairs,” said King.”
Another quote from the SAPA report in 2013 re Dave King. Draw your own conclusions.
wottpi 19.39
Thanks for that . Agree with your opinion of DK.
easyjambo 20.04
Given that the total amount of tax paid was far closer to DKs figure than that of SARS it could be opined that it was a favourable settlement.
Of course he wouldn't have avoided a jail sentence had he not agreed to the tax settlement. I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.
As you are probably aware all fraud charges were dropped with DK accepting liability for the lesser charges that i referred to previously.
Thanks for that. I knew that he had made a one off payment but couldn’t off the top of my head recall who to.
slimjim 5th September 2018 at 20:39
Given that the total amount of tax paid was far closer to DKs figure than that of SARS it could be opined that it was a favourable settlement.
============================
On that basis, was it a favourable settlement for RFC that its directors or other officials were not pursued for criminal charges in connection with the EBT and DOS schemes.
I guess too that it will be a favourable settlement for EBT recipients who manage to repay their loans by April 2019 to avoid a "loan charge" being levied on them, or for those who reach a tax payment settlement that does not include penalties.
As far as I am concerned, they are all tax cheats and deserve to be described as such. Those who sought and were granted indemnities knew full well what was going on, even to the extent that they weren't allowed to engage in correspondence with the authorities, without first consulting with the club.
SlimJim now morphing into LM2's facetious, obsequious persona now that LM2 has been moderated. Quelle surprise!
As much as the SFM deserves praise for actually caring about corruption enough to set up this monitor of the SFA, the truth is monitoring is a passive activity and the events regarding the decisions in Scottish football this week shows us that they're laughing at our passivity. They'll be laughing even harder when their Men in Black put their beloved team on top of the Scottish football pile too.
Is it not the case that if we really want to get the honest fox of truth into the hen house of corruption then we have to do one simple thing : buy a football club .
Buy a football club even in the Lowlands league and we can cause havoc. We can register players using the Brysonian method just for starters, if they punish us we take a case to CAS and cite precedent set in the Rangers case.
They're not going to give us back our game. We have got to go and take it off them.
On 14 June 2002 BBC News referred to South African reports that King faced eleven counts of fraud when he appeared at the Regional Court in Randburg, near Johannesburg. He was alleged to owe the tax authorities over 900 million rand: approximately £60m. So it would seem that the 42 million was closer to what SARS said he owed than the sum dk offered. Just saying like.
[moderated]
shug
My original figure of £180 million was from memory and it may indeed have been lower but was still far higher than the figure you give.
shug 21.31
The amount SARS claimed was owed was in fact £149,162,500.
Just saying like
SlimJim, your position that the settlemement WAS a favourable outcome is very similar to LM2's 'it will be a masterstroke if he pulls this off' stance. I call both obsequious.
Your reply above to Ej that "Difficult for it to be considered a "favourable settlement" when no-one was accused of or charged with criminal behaviour as far as i'm aware." is facetious and obsequious as far as I'm concerned and that type of sarcy response is very reminiscent of LM2.
The general view that LM2 has already had a myriad of other usernames was all that I was pointing out.
slimjim 5th September 2018 at 21:59
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shug 21.31
The amount SARS claimed was owed was in fact £149,162,500.
Just saying like
====================
Maybe your contacts are better than the bbc contacts it's their figures quoted.
Just saying like
slimjim 5th September 2018 at 18:10
Don't ask BP/Tris to defend what I wrote.
I'll do it myself.
Before doing so which
a) tone are you uncomfortable with?
b) language are you uncomfortable with?
SlimJim 16:55
i hope by now you may have done me the courtesy of reading the post to which you “replied”but in the need to be accurate and honest do you accept, after a variety of posters have challenged you ridiculous assertion that King paid the less than the price of a one bed flat in Walthamstow to stay out at of jail rather than in fact settling for millions to stay out of jail?
in the interest of accuracy and honesty y’know… (full marks for irony btw)
come me back to me when you’ve read it….
The earlier posts on the question of how much DK paid in order to avoid a jail sentence sent me back to Justice Southwood's judgment in the appeal against tax assessments, on this link
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/dave-king-a-mendacious-witness–tax-court
And I enjoyed again that feeling of amused contempt for the creatures who scuttle about in their city suits in the world of finance and the people they leech onto, and the ease with which they can, like 'radar' Jackson and James Traynor and Graham Spiers , be impressed by 'money' or the show of it ( to the possible ruination of their names among honest ,ordinary, decent workers and tax-payers)
I give you this excerpt:
"On 2 March 1999 Mr. [Dave King] and Mr. G met in Johannesburg to discuss the management of the offshore structure. Mr. G's summary of the meeting reads as follows:
‘I met with Mr. [Dave King] for lunch to discuss the way forward for his structure ..
…..
We then moved on to the question of the way forward and Mr. [Dave King] confirmed that he would be looking to invest the funds into equities/bonds. I suggested the best way forward would be for me to contact a handful of Investment Managers with a view to giving them say £20 million each, to manage. We could then compare the performance of each at any given time. We discussed what level of risk Mr. [Dave King] was prepared to accept and he advised that he wanted to give this some thought. I suggested that maybe each Manager need not necessarily be working to the same risk guidelines. I also briefed Mr. [Dave King] on the Tinkers Institutional Money Fund and the Multi-Manager products due out in April. I also mentioned the presentation that had been given by Mr. A of OR locally and the claims for "guaranteed" returns. This interested him and he agreed that it would be an idea to go to them with say £1 million and see what they could "guarantee" over 1 year. Mr. [Dave King] mentioned that if he could be guaranteed 8 % pa he would be happy. Lunch was very enjoyable and I mentioned that I had had a bottle of Klein Constantia from the Cape region and Mr. [Dave King] replied that he knew the label well and was considering buying the vineyard!' (TB11 274-276).
Note the excited exclamation mark! Jim White could hardly have wet his pants more copiously.
But I suppose Mr G had some evidence that King really had some money: our 'radar' and the rest simply took CW's word (ha!) that he was a 'Motherwell-born multi-billionaire', and made complete ar.es of themselves.
[And how very good it was today to hear that Bob Woodward of 'Watergate' fame is going strong and challenging another lying President, and , with any luck, making those in the SMSM who have sold their souls to a lie, hear the soft, insistent and persistent voice of conscience]
So what do you think will be out first for Rangers, the new shares or the new shirts.
Both seem to be taking an age for stuff which should probably have been happening in June or July.
jockybhoy 23.00
I don't believe than even DK thought he could avoid paying tax completely and get away with it so a final figure was always going to be reached and agreed upon no matter how long he dragged it out.
The jail time i referred to was in relation to the 41 lesser charges of contravening section 5 of the income tax act, each of which carried a 2 year jail sentence or a fine of £4500. He avoided the potential of 82 years jailtime by paying £186k
Slimjim, Football aside. How are you? Good I hope. I'll play you a song if you tell me what you like.
If you don’t hurry up, it’s going to be Creedence Clearwater Revival. I happen to know JC, BP Tris, Auldheid, EJ, and others love them. So I will get away with it.
SJ@23.35
So you would have everyone accept that the millions paid back in taxes are to be discounted and we should only focus on one single aspect of the settlement? How very Lawman of you.
slimjim 5th September 2018 at 23:20
Wasn't intended to be "sarky" but just a response to a rather strange post (imo) from ej.
==============================
Nothing strange about my post at all.
You challenged a view that King had paid millions to stay out of jail and (imo) sought to downplay King's wrongdoing by saying the figure was £186k.
You conceded that he also had to pay a tax bill in excess of £40m to stay out of jail.
I went on to comment on the media's and some posters view of what constitutes a "favourable settlement". You appeared to concur with the view that what King achieved was a favourable settlement.
I disagreed, mainly because I have a view that those who knowingly seek to avoid paying tax and are found to have abused the system should be labelled as tax cheats.
Do you take issue with any of the above, or do you subscribe to the view that if you get away with something for long enough, or negotiate your way out of jail time, then it's ok?
Jimbo@00.32
Great song choice. If I may, I have attached a link to perhaps a lesser known CCR song. It’s an anti-Vietnam war song which is somehow still relevant. Way off topic but hey ho.
https://youtu.be/40JmEj0_aVM
jimbo 6th September 2018 at 00:16
" …….If you don’t hurry up, it’s going to be Creedence Clearwater Revival. I happen to know JC, BP Tris, Auldheid, EJ, and others love them. So I will get away with it."
__________________________________
For the benefit of the lieges, jimbo, and for the avoidance of doubt, I know you not and you wot not me.
As it happens however, your reference to Creedence Clearwater Revival took me back to a very wonderful evening aboard the 'Maid of the Loch' on an office party night, roon aboot 1968, and the girl of my dreams!
Not so much 'rollin on the river' as 'paddlin' doon Loch Lomond!' but that song is deeply embedded in my heart's memory!
As I type this, I am again that young man!
Ex Ludo 6th September 2018 at 01:02
Great song choice. If I may, I have attached a link to perhaps a lesser known CCR song. It’s an anti-Vietnam war song which is somehow still relevant. Way off topic but hey ho.
================================
One of my favourite bands, so much so that I have a Spotify playlist of my favourite CCR songs (including Fortunate Son). I love the intro to Up Around The Bend. If you like CCR you might like the Hollies "Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress" which is in the style of CCR.
Have you ever heard three more lovable rogues? They all talk so much sh.t by varying degrees, yes its you Lawman, Slimjim, and sad to say, DBD. But I offer this up for help. You wee souls. Gog help you in your delusionment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIMhshpf0Y4
This is the best version of it. It will break your heart.
If I was a narcissistic, miserable tightwad, with few – if any – real friends…I would probably spend time on social media to read what the Internet Bampots were saying about me.
And if I was sufficiently delusional, I wouldn't really care about what they were writing…I would simply get an ego boost that so many people were talking about me!
Just a thought.
valentinesclown 5 Sepetmber 2018
"Since 2012 the SFA IMO has protected the Govan club (the 5 way agreement being the prime example), we will never get transparency NEVER. The SFA are answerable to no one IMO and the farce of them acknowledging the Ibrox club as the same club since 1872 is the biggest protection of the Govan club to the detriment of all other clubs and to us the fans who are the life blood of the game. Why would they not want transparency? Scottish football has lost all credibility since 2012, we all know it and we all know they will keep accepting this to protect the Ibrox club. Why in Scotland is this acceptable?"
====================================================================
I was looking on the SFA website and noticed among their sponsors and partners, SportScotland.
SportScotland is funded by the Scottish Government, i.e. us. The Scottish Government will increase sportscotland’s core funding by £2 million in 2018-19, from £29.7 million to £31.7 million, to prioritise the development of sport within Scotland.
SportScotland's values are:
Their relationship with the SFA, imo, does not sit well with these values. SportScotland currently have a survey running on their website which is interesting.
Rangers TV takes the Sky or BT feed when they broadcast live .
The incident was covered, replayed and replayed again. On Rangers TV . Live , as it happened . On Rangers TV
SJ, anyone on here who doesn't toe the party line are accused of being one of TLM's aliases. I got it last week. It's almost as if the whole of Scottish football have the one view and anyone who doesn't agree is actually just the one 'troll'. I wonder if it's the same in the media? Has anyone ever seen Graeme Spiers, Keith Jackson and Chris Jack in the same room?
Easyjambo@01.18 yesterday
Thanks. The Hollies back catalogue is now my mission for the day.
Darkbeforedawn 08.52
Not a lot i can add to that.
StevieBC 03.59
Don’t be so hard on yourself.
Anyone else get the feeling that there's a one team relay race being run and the baton has just been passed on?
easyjambo 01.00
I thought it strange because you were comparing the actual outcome of a lengthy legal process with something that has not and imo will not happen.
I pointed out that there is a widely held view that DK would have been sentenced to 82 years imprisonment had he not paid the tax due. This is wrong as DK had admitted (eventually) that tax was owed but to what amount?. SARS demand was for £149 million, DK thought it should have been just over £3million. A settlement was finally agreed between both parties in 2013 for £43 million. This is closer to his figure than that of SARS. I didn't say this was a "favourable settlement" but could understand if others believed it was.
To make it clear to you i have no time for DK and will be delighted when he finally removes himself from my club.I have never sought to defend him on here or anywhere else for that matter.
Sorry but can we just cut to the chase.
Dave King pled guilty to Tax Evasion, he is a convicted fraudster.
Are people really arguing about how many millions of pounds (or the rand equivalent) were involved.
The "settlement" was whether he went to prison or paid a fine. It was clearly a plea bargain to get the whole sorry mess over with.
Whatever the sentence, he is a convicted fraudster and it involves tens of millions of pounds.
I see it could cost sevco £100k for the miller and wallace fiasco lmao.
On trolls and others.
I appreciate that some folk hate the site getting bogged down some matters brought up by Trolls. However to my mind it just helps remind the rest of us what we are up against.
Clubs playing out of Ibrox are 'charged' with the following (and I am sure folk could add more)
I am sure a handful of the above issues could be cherry pikced and aimed at other Scottish clubs from time to time in their history but IMHO the long list above is one that it applies wholly and consistently over the years to the clubs from Ibrox.
Once again I still await those taking up the arguing of narrow points of law, rules and other matters, to obstruct and deflect the rest of us, to explain exactly in terms of the big picture, what is it that T'Rangers are bringing to Scottish Game and wider society in the 21st Century.
easyJambo 6th September 2018 at 01:18
One of my favourite bands, so much so that I have a Spotify playlist of my favourite CCR songs (including Fortunate Son). I love the intro to Up Around The Bend.
========================================================
Always thought JF just plugged his guitar straight into the mains for that intro!
Suppose ‘bone spurs’ would qualify someone as a “Fortunate Son”.
SFNASA
A couple of CoS Hearings for Tuesday
LADY WOLFFE – E Hunter, Clerk
Tuesday 11th September
By Order at 9.00am
P341/17 Pet: The Panel on Takeovers and Mergers for orders sec 955 – Dentons UK – Lindsays
This hearing is at the order of the court, so I would assume that Lady Wolffe will be seeking confirmation that the actions she requested at the previous hearing have been carried out. IIRC that included making submissions to the Lord Advocate on competency. A one day debate on the competency motion is still scheduled for 3 October as far as I know.
Proof Before Answer
CA31/17 The Football Company (Scotland) Ltd v Glasgow City Council – MacRoberts LLP – Glasgow City Council (Corporate Services)
This hearing is the one about the "riotous assembly" that followed the conclusion of the 2016 Hibs v Rangers cup final, at which electronic advertising hoardings were damaged.
As it is a "proof before answer", then we should hear both sides presenting their cases to Lady Wolffe, before she makes her "answer" (judgement/decision), probably at a later date.
I think it's good that SJ & DBD come on here with their views, not sure about LM2. It doesn't matter that they are different to most posters' views as it encourages debate and keeps the site flowing.
I love the OT stuff and it too can be educational e.g. although I am a fan of CCR I hadn't heard Fortunate Son before.
My personal CCR-JF tracks after Bad Moon Rising is Looking Out My Back Door –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aae_RHRptRg
For any of you not familiar (can't be many) with Creedence Clearwater Revival and John Fogarty here's a link.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ccr
Hope you enjoy your encounter.
There are 5 thumbs down for my post so far. I understand Thumbs Up where someone is saying, "I agree with you in the main". There are two separate elements to my post, viz. the others posters and an OT theme. Do the TD posters disagree with one or with both. How about you leave a wee reply and let us know what you don't agree with. That's what forums are for, express you're opinion, have a debate, a TD doesn't really let us know what you think.
I wouldn't worry about the TU/TD. I don't even look anymore. It was a feature I was surprised made it onto the new site as in my opinion it lends no benefit whatsoever. I think there will always be people vote down a post purely on who the poster is!
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16693164.lord-advocate-faces-euro-human-rights-claim-over-rangers-fraud-arrests-after-winning-common-law-immunity-legal-fight/
jockybhoy 23.00
As has been pointed out, King didn’t negotiate a “settlement” – he pleaded guilty to 42 breaches of tax law and paid the associated fines and back taxes. That the SARS dropped a couple months f hundred other charges including racketeering and money laundering was IMO a VERY favourable settlement but to dress it up as anything but abject capitulation is disingenuous at best – heck he even had to do a mea culpa as part of the settlement!
The fact that you adopted the tactic of ignoring the vast number of salient points in a post to focus on a very minor element and then go into minutiae on that is a very familiar tactic… now I wonder who I’m recalling when i am thinking that?
Dave King, a creature of habit. Taken from his tax problems South Africa.
Advocate John Myburgh (SC) for the State is opposing his argument that the case against him cannot continue because he has insufficient funds to pay for legal representation.
Is Dave King, 'Permi Skint'. He always has insufficient funds, TOP, getting lawyers.
I
Sorry my previous post was in response to slimjim from 23:35 last night. Don’t want to get busted by JC for not posting a source (again!)
And this as well from 2008, he's a one trick pony. It just Beggars belief!!
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/documents/sars-responds-to-dave-king
bigboab1916 6th September 2018 at 17:57
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16693164.lord-advocate-faces-euro-human-rights-claim-over-rangers-fraud-arrests-after-winning-common-law-immunity-legal-fight/
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Thanks for the link. The full judgement can be found here.
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2018scoh93.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Although Whitehouse’s case is now probably a bit divorced from the main thrust of the blog, it is directly connected to RFC's administration and the criminal case that followed. It's the conduct of the police (DI Robertson) more than anything that is under scrutiny. I will continue to follow this case along with BDO's negligence action against the administrators, if nothing else in the hope that the truth comes out about what actually went on between D&P / Whyte / Green and the switcheroo.
BP this would make a great header?Tried pasting the cartoon but Big Brother said it was too long .
https://twitter.com/BroganRoganTrev?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Thumbs down from Jim Traynor no doubt ,v
"Although Whitehouse’s case is now probably a bit divorced from the main thrust of the blog, it is directly connected to RFC's administration and the criminal case that followed. It's the conduct of the police (DI Robertson) more than anything that is under scrutiny. I will continue to follow this case along with BDO's negligence action against the administrators, if nothing else in the hope that the truth comes out about what actually went on between D&P / Whyte / Green and the switcheroo."
John Clark 6th September 2018 at 23:15
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Likewise I've only just finished reading the full opinion.
The first 30-40 paragraphs were relatively easy reading for anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the history of the takeover and administration of the club.
Thereafter it was pretty heavy going with all the references to legal precedents.
The outcome of immunity for the Lord Advocate was not unexpected. At least we will get a proof hearing on the actions of the police which should be worth attending.
The human rights angle is also of interest. I think that there could be an out of court settlement with Article 5 (unlawful detention) conceded by the authorities, but not the wider charge under Article 8 which could lead to a larger sum being awarded.
Nice wee read.
https://thecelticblog.com/2018/09/blogs/there-will-be-consequences-for-the-game-if-celtic-fails-to-get-justice-for-the-fans/
Shug, a very nice wee read, and if James Forrest is correct, then we could be in for ever more revelations to ponder over, and to cause the Govan deflector machine to go into overdrive.
International break time. I wonder how many players will be issued red cards for offences now deemed as perfectly acceptable in Scotland? Let's see if they continue to be perfectly acceptable as the colour of jerseys worn by the offenders change though!
Okay, so the Nations League…who can explain it in terms a simpleton like myself can understand? Particularly interested in how Scotland can qualify for the Euros through it?
Nick 7th September 2018 at 09:01
Okay, so the Nations League…who can explain it in terms a simpleton like myself can understand? Particularly interested in how Scotland can qualify for the Euros through it?
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The purpose is to provide countries with competitive matches, rather than friendlies. against countries of a similar standard. Scotland are in the third tier (C) along with the likes of Hungary Norway Serbia etc. England are in the first tier (A) along with France, Germany, Spain etc.
There are four mini groups in each tier – Scotland is paired with Albania and Israel in their mini group. The winners of each of the mini groups will be promoted to the next tier with relegation for the worst performing teams.
UEFA has reserved four places in the Euro 2020 finals, for one country at each tier that hasn't qualified through the normal qualifying groups. The four top ranked countries in each tier, who have not already qualified for Euro 2020, will play off in March 2020 for a finals slot.
well that's easy for you to say…
Smugas 7th September 2018 at 11:01
'.That's easy for you to say..'
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easy for whom to say what about what, Smugas
?
easyJambo 7th September 2018 at 10:31
Thank you! So in summary if Scotland win their 3 team group but fail in their qualifying group they'll get another crack at qualifying through a playoff anyway.
Famous last words but surely even we can't mess this up? 😉
From EJ
edit.
"UEFA has reserved four places in the Euro 2020 finals, for one country at each tier that hasn't qualified through the normal qualifying groups. The four top ranked countries in each tier, who have not already qualified for Euro 2020, will play off in March 2020 for a finals slot. "
***
…and after all that, Neil Lennon gets a three match touchline ban! : > )
I like the idea of the Nations league! It at least gives another route to the Euro's, and also gives more meaningful national games instead of friendlies. Our completely inept SFA constantly arrange friendlies against the likes of Australia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Argentina – all teams with different styles than we are likely ever to meet. We should have been playing friendlies against the likes of Serbia, Macedonia, Ukraine – the sort of teams that put us out all the time! At least this way, a game against Albania which is the sort of friendly we needed but wouldnt draw the crowds now becomes meaningful! I'm quite excited about our prospects going forward with some of the players we have. My only issue with Scotland is the fact we have gone for a manager who is stuck in the past and hasn't had a proper gig in almost a decade!
Okay, so Israel in the Euros?…who can explain it in terms a simpleton like myself can understand?
This is purely a geography question by the way, I have the same issue with our teams going 5-6 hours to …..istan in European Champions League/Europa Cup.
Don't get me started on Champions League
Just one mention on the Whitehouse case, is anyone of the opinion that the administrators failed to act in the best interest of creditors by giving away a basket case of assets for a song? I think Messrs Clark and Whitehouse should be brought before the Financial Conduct Authority rather than claiming millions of pounds from the public purse.
Just one mention on the Whitehouse case, is anyone of the opinion that the administrators failed to act in the best interest of creditors by giving away a basket case of assets for a song? I think Messrs Clark and Whitehouse should be brought before the Financial Conduct Authority rather than claiming millions of pounds from the public purse.
Concomitant 7th September 2018 at 14:16
'..I think Messrs Clark and Whitehouse should be brought before the Financial Conduct Authority .
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Who knows, when the Liquidators are done there might be references made to some disciplinary, regulatory body, over the conduct of the Administration in terms of the abilities,competence and skill of the Administrators.
Darkbeforedawn 7th September 2018 at 12:32
'…is the fact we have gone for a manager who is stuck in the past and hasn't had a proper gig in almost a decade!'
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And one with quite personal worries,with other things pressing on his mind, such as with having to pay back some taxes and such like!
Concomitant 7th September 2018 at 14:16
Just one mention on the Whitehouse case, is anyone of the opinion that the administrators failed to act in the best interest of creditors by giving away a basket case of assets for a song? I think Messrs Clark and Whitehouse should be brought before the Financial Conduct Authority rather than claiming millions of pounds from the public purse.
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BDO has already started a negligence claim against the administrators, although I think it still has quite a way to go. It is that case that may reveal more about what actually went on during the administration and the sale of the club's assets.
Used to go to all the Scotland home games, now don’t bother keeping up to date with it all.
Allyjambo 6th September 2018 at 09:52
Anyone else get the feeling that there's a one team relay race being run and the baton has just been passed on?
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
To the contrary AJ, I see a mutli-team relay race where one team dropped the baton. However the offending team kept on running through the finishing line, smugly claiming victory, with the anchor leg claiming "I don't need no steenkin baton".
Meanwhile, one of the track officials picks up the "dropped" baton, secreting it under his blazer, mumbling "move along, nothing to see hear".
At the medal ceremony God Save The Queen is played triumphantly, while the hacks in the press box report enthusiastically of the wonder of such a great achievement and how the weight of a little baton would have made no difference to the result.
How football authorities should deal with delinquent clubs re FFP
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/09/07/exclusive-birmingham-facing-12-point-deduction-breaking-efl/
Birmingham City are facing the prospect of being hit with a huge 12-point deduction for breaking rules on spending, in a landmark case for the English Football League.
Garry Monk’s Championship club could be struck with the unprecedented punishment this season after the EFL agreed on the proposed sanctions this week.
Birmingham are understood to be in deep trouble for breaching profitability and sustainability rules, with the EFL determined to adopt a tough stance by pushing for a deduction of up to 12 points and a heavy fine.
Each to their own but I’ve never understood that mindset. I know a lot of my fellow fans had the same attitude after the Ferguson/McGreggor incident (which for the record I fully agreed with the SFA stance and had it been me in charge they would never have played for Scotland again!). For me the national team is more than the SFA, it’s more than the manager or players at anytime. To be honest no club game can ever get me as elated and as depressed as the rollercoasters I go through with the Tartan Army. I go to every home game I can and occasional away games and I will cheer whatever 11 is on the pitch and whoever is in the dugout whether I agree with them being there or not. I was annoyed by my fellow Rangers fans for boycotting games, and dissapointed that seems to be the norm now for fans disillusioned with any aspect of Scottish football. As ever I’ll hype myself up that this campaign will finally be the the one to get us to a finals, and no doubt cry into my beer when a shocking performance away to some lower ranked eastern European nation finally shatters my dreams again!
Anyone else a bit disappointed in Celtic No 2 Chris Davies saying to the Sun….
Davies said: “I haven’t bumped into the guys yet, but it does change relationships.
“The intensity of this city and the rivalry makes it impossible to be friends, as well as rivals.
“That’s fine. You need to focus on your club and team and that’s what we are doing.”
<
p style=”margin-left:0px; margin-right:0px”>I'm disappointed as I believe that attitude is part of what reinforces the stupid fans' view that you have to hate your rival. If Aguerro can come out and say that De Gea is his best friend and they socialise together, why can't Davies show friendship toward guys he knew before? I see TRFC fansites slating their players just for talking to, hugging and/or smiling with Celtic players after a game they've lost heavily. I don't know if Celtic fansites are similar. At the end of EPL games and international games, you regularly see rival players chatting, putting arms round each other etc. In 2018, can that not be done in Glasgow games? Should Davies not be showing that they are normal people who have friends who work for different companies?
Darkbeforedawn 7th September 2018 at 18:02
"For me the national team is more than the SFA, it’s more than the manager or players at anytime."
No it not for it's their rules and who they appoint and what they know of the character they appoint that depresses most football fans.
BB, as I say I know it’s common amongst both sides of the Old Firm – Rangers fans boycotted (and I believe still boycott!), then Celtic fans boycotted. My national team and Scottish identity will always come first no matter what the men in charge do to piss me off. To not go to the games would be cutting my nose off to spite my face. New generations of fans will come in and take my seat and the SFA wouldn’t bat an eyelid, but I would lose out on what to me has been and continues to be a huge part of my life.