.. and why sites like SFM matter.
When SFM blasted off in 2012, we had a fair idea that Scottish Football had not only veered violently off the rails,but that it had done so deliberately.
Our intention was to try to help – in some small way – to steer it towards a straighter track, and to see it restored as a sporting institution and spectacle worthy of sporting principles. To see integrity restored to our national sport, to see honesty, fairness and adherence to both the laws of the game and land.
Of course we didn’t know what route our own journey would take, even although we were clear about the destination. What we did know about the journey was that no matter the route, the first leg started outside our own front door.
Who knew we would be taken on a magical mystery tour, blindfolded, spun around a few times, but still find ourselves at that front door. Via the road less traveled, the high road, low road and an endless series of shortcuts and wrong turns we hadn’t moved an inch.
On every stage of the “journey” the SFA, the SPL, and their quasi-legal tribunals & inquiries ducked and dived, twisted and bent the truth, and aided and abetted the greatest scam in the history of UK sport.
Newly coined idioms emerged; “Imperfect registrations”, “boiler-room subsidiary”, “emerged from liquidation”, “ethereal entity”, – and the real doozy; “other clubs could also have broken the tax laws had they wished” – all in an effort to;
1. pretend that what happened had not happened, that cheating was fair, that the rights of one football club were not enshrined in law but decreed by the heavens;
2. hope against hope that the rest of us had gone stark raving bonkers and would accept the “Santa is alive” fallacy as truth.
The facts were;
- That Rangers, having been subjected to the ignominy of administration, had now entered liquidation, leaving behind a mountain of debts, the vast majority of which were underwritten by us, by the taxpaying public.
- That almost £100m of funds was denied to the exchequer as the first ever nationalised football club, bought and paid for by the people of the UK, slid into oblivion, a trail of devastation in its wake.
- That in the course of that calamitous conduct of business, the SFA and the SPL were given false and incomplete information about the nature of players’ contracts. This in order to cover up a tax scheme that was (according to the man who devised it) operated incorrectly and thus unawfully.
Every football club in Scotland and their fans were cheated by a club which quite simply refused to play by the rules – even as the noose around its neck was being pulled ever tighter due to HMRC and Lloyd’s Banking Group taking steps to erect buffers ahead of the onrushing gravy train.
The result was that 140 years of history came to an end; an insatiable hunger for success ironically bringing about the ultimate and irreversible failure of a Scottish institution.
Not for them though, the recognition that they had transgressed. “It wasn’t Rangers – it was Craig White” was the cry.
I’m sure Hearts supporters in 1965 might have said the same about Willie Wallace after he missed a sitter in the final league match against Kilmarnock at Tynecastle. Had he scored, Hearts would have won the league, so Hearts should, by the RFC logic, claim that title anyway. Likewise Celtic fans could have pointed a finger at Georgios Samaras when his penalty miss at Ibrox lost them the league.
More facts: every football club in the world is the sum of its parts, onfield and off. We take the good that people do for our clubs and celebrate them. We have no right to cherry pick and ignore the consequences when people screw up.
Footballers – and administrators – are often gifted individuals given to moments of blinding inspiration which benefits their clubs. They are also often prone to reckless behaviours, the consequences of which we all have to bear. Murray’s knack of talking money out of trees and his reckless and irresponsible practices gave Rangers huge success, but that behaviour also – perhaps inevitably – led to the appointment with the buffers mentioned above.
The good and the bad. Both sides of the same coin, inseparable, inevitable, and there is no choice but to accept the whole package, not just the good bits.
In the circumstances, the hostility towards the old club was understandable. It was always a given that Celtic fans were unlikely to cut them slack as they headed towards an ignominious end.
However, had there been contrition, an acknowledgement of wrongs and some humility in response to talk of consequences, fans of other clubs outside of the Old Firm bubble may have extended some sympathy. But there was none of this. Instead, denial, arrogance, blaming others (“kicking us when we are down”, “who are these people?”) and a pugilistic reaction to the very idea of punishment. The outcome was an absence of sympathy for the plight of RFC.
Let’s revisit this; on an industrial scale, Rangers misrepresented (accidentally if you believe that the board of a PLC was comprised exclusively of halfwits and individuals unable to bite their own fingers) crucial information regarding compliance with registration rules, They subsequently withheld evidence from multiple enquiries into their conduct over these registration rules.
As far back as 1996, Rangers PAYE affairs were being investigated by HMRC and incurring penalties (not a very well publicised event).
Then, for more than a decade, principally through the 2000s they failed to comply with taxation statutes and with crucially important (not merely bureaucratic) SFA rules designed to preserve the intergity of football as a sport. They cheated the revenue out of millions and the fans of every club in Scotland out of their aspirations for their own clubs.
Rangers however were still box-office, and there were 50,000 fans providing a market for the product the now extinct club had provided through the decades. Surely someone would step in and take up the Rangers cause? Surely those people would eschew the catastrophic errors of judgement that had resulted in the economic and existential demise of the original club? Surely they would also acknowledge those mistakes in an effort to convince the clubs and fans they had wronged that this was an organisation that recognised the interdependence of sporting activity?
Surely.
But no. Sadly, no.
Even then though, that matters little.
Why? Because the sins of the old Rangers cannot be visited on the new. The behavior of the new club is a matter for a different argument, but it isn’t relevant in a legal or regulatory sense to the old club. Legally or morally there is nothing you can do to them to ensure that a repeat of the same spivish behaviour does not occur.
So why the fuss? Why the six years of relentless campaigning by SFM and dozens of other football sites?
Because it does matter that the authorities themselves – including all the other clubs – and the MSM have gone out of their way to cover it all up.
No-one at the SFA will talk to fans who have provided them with evidence of wrongdoing in the matter of the 2011 Euro licence. No one will address the witholding of evidence from the LNS enquiry, nor the false premise upon which it arrived at some of its conclusions, nor the mysteriously shifting goalposts of the period investigated by the LNS enquiry, nor the acid-flashback consciousness of the newly arrived at – and totally irregular and unlawful – “imperfect registration” status.
What still requires to be done is to root out those who have enabled the big lie. We need to hold accountable those who have sought to bury evidence, to dispense with logic and to treat fans with contempt and ridicule when legitimate concerns are raised.
We need to replace those people with people of integrity, folk who love the game as much as we do, people who will not yield to intimidation or the dog-whistle.
There are foot thick rule-books in place in football, and the authorities have plummeted into the Asimovian depths of a regulatory Fantastic Voyage to circumvent those. The SFA Chief Executive even told our own John Clark that he would “do nothing” had he been presented with evidence of wrong doing (and he had been presented with such evidence).
Yet one simple rule would have saw the whole sorry escapade brought to a halt – the universal rule that requires people to show due respect and good faith to others.
As I said, we started this journey at our own front door. The authorities and their enablers in the media have been taking us on the Uber route for six years. But we still know the destination, and we will get there. The SFA, the SPFL and the MSM have been relentless in their dedication to half-truths and misdirection.
But the fans are even more relentless in their pursuit of truth and their determination to see our game returned to its status a a sport. That is why outlets like SFM are important. Not because we are any better than others, but because we give a voice to the people in the game who matter most – to the paying public of Scotland who turn up in numbers relatively greater than any other country in Europe. They need that voice. We are not going anywhere.
On the matter of players on the HMRC ebt hit list and ability/responsibility to pay;
Rather than pursue a club in the process of liquidation where their bills wont be paid in anything like full just to "prove" its the same club, is there not a more rewarding (for them) approach in a class action against Sir David Murray?
Evidence is in three batches:
1. The deliberate decision to not disclose ebt side letters to the SFA that was raised in testimony to the FTT. If Rangers had no doubts about their effect on the lawfulness of using ebts to pay players, then why conceal them from the football authorities? If Rangers were certain of lawfulness of ebts as they were using them then side letters would be unnecessary. Should that have sent a signal to the players who have to share the blame, did they know the SFA were not being told, or is that solely the fault of Rangers under the direction of Sir David Murray?
2. From April 2005 there is evidence that Rangers were aware that the existence of side letters might invite tax demands from HMRC, so they decided to keep their existence secret. Do any players signed after April 2005 have a case they were knowingly being sold a pup?
3. From 31st March 2008 by which time Rangers had a full list of determinations of tax owed by players signed with ebts on the desk at Ibrox, do any players signed on ebts thereafter have a case that they were knowingly being sold a pup?
If I were Better Call Saul, Id be doing the rounds.
woodstein 9th September 2018 at 12:57
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Thanks pal.
Darkbeforedawn 9th September 2018 at 11:34
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I personally think it’s disgusting and yet another reason I despise this SNP government
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Whilst I might have an issue if the extra starts causing real personal financial pain, (who would not) in principle I think tax is the price that has to be paid for a civil society and as long as it is not punitive or deterring tax payers from employment it is a principle to be embraced.
The guy in England paying less tax might be paying through the nose for other services that a more social outlook saves Scots.
It is a question of balance.
jean7brodie 9th September 2018 at 13:04
And as Jimmy would say “and there’s more”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/scotland-free-university-tuition-brexit-eu-students-shirley-anne-somerville-a8190211.html
Interesting (and disgusting but ultimately not surprising) article in today's Sunday Times.
HMRC have admitted that it allows the most powerful members of society to escape prosecution for financial crimes.
A senior government official has admitted that the authorities accommodate celebrities and allow them to settle debts privately whilst prosecuting small businesses, smugglers and benefit cheats.
Why? Because "the very wealthy and the prominent members of society were afraid of the reputational damage that a trial would bring"
Also..
After numerous denials, earlier this year HMRC admitted that it had refused to cooperate with a French investigation into money laundering and tax fraud at telecoms giant Lycamobile because they were the "biggest corporate donor to the Conservative Party".
HS
These indemnity letters?…..Is it possible to coerce someone, (or whatever), into committing an unlawful act, and provide them with a freedom from prosecution guarantee, (so to speak), by the coercer promising to take the rap.?…….I doubt the indemnity letters carry any legal weight.
An unlawful act, is an unlawful act, at the end of the day. I think wee Nacho is hanging his hat on a shoogly nail………He will be pointed in the same direction as the sex-abuse victim, and BDO will tell him to stand in line behind the debenture holders.
Sevco, like their Frankenstein father, will accept the blame for nothing.
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Homunculus 9th September 2018 at 12:28
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Completely OT but I wonder where all this free stuff comes from?
dom16 9th September 2018 at 13:37
Maybe balancing the books properly and having a conscience?
An observation on the Judicial Protocol:
Its intent was to provide justice in football and yet it appears that it is doing the very opposite which has serious implications for the game.
Justice is there to uphold the rules and yet it seems the Judicial Protocol is being used to circumvent the consequences of rule breaking or delay justice arriving (as in bringing CAS into the JPDT proceedings on the non compliance with SFA Articles by RFC during 2011 with regard to club licensing.
However this is not a phenomena restricted to Scottish football.
This item
http://noel.world/noel-news/police-commisioner-calls-for-lloyds-resignations/
could almost be talking about the reluctance to bring to account those responsible for allowing corruption to become part and parcel of Scottish football but this item
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/opinion/trump-white-house-anonymous-resistance.html?smid=tw-nytopinion&smtyp=cur
tells us that good men can still make a difference where corruption exist.
The hope has to be that somewhere in the Scottish football governance landscape there exist some good men, but I wish to f*** they would give some indication they exist.
Corrupt official 9th September 2018 at 13:3
Which is a good reason for Nacho and others in the same boat to pursue the different path suggested.
jean7brodie 9th September 2018 at 13:04
Not to mention free prescriptions, free personal care and national bus travel for elderly, free of tolls on bridges, council tax freeze for 10 years etc etc
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Ouch!!!!
Jean, I have recently taken ownership of a "bus pass" but as yet do not class myself as elderly.
Jings, I still play 5-a-side football for an hour and a half every week!
normanbatesmumfc 9th September 2018 at 14:08
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normanbatesmumfc 9th September 2018 at 14:08
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Meant to add, I come onto this site every day to keep me alert, educated and fit.
From today's Sunday Times:
"WE ALLOW THE RICH TO ESCAPE CHARGES, ADMITS TAXMAN"
HMRC have admitted for the first time that it allows the most powerful members of society to escape prosecution for financial crime……..
……a senior government official has admitted that HMRC accommodated celebrity concerns and allowed them to settle privately to avoid embarrassment of a public trial…..
…….HMRC admitted (eventually, after numerous denials) that it had refused to assist a French investigation into suspected money laundering and tax fraud by UK telecoms giant Lycamobile, citing the fact that Lycamobile was the biggest corporate donor to the Conservative Party.
HS
Just a further wee thought on the possibility of players' claims against the Rangers directors, or specifically the signatories to their EBT induced contracts, and that is – had there been no dishonesty once HMRC came calling, the players would then have been in a position to go after the still live Rangers Football Club to honour the promise within the side letters.
Not only did Rangers/Murray and his less than honest executives encourage players to enter into an illegal tax avoidance scheme, their later actions prevented those players from pursuing the club under the indemnity provided by the officers of the club. At that time Murray was clearly playing for time to keep his failing empire a secret until he was in a position to lose as little of his personal wealth as possible. He sold a lot of people, including those players (whether or not we view them as deserving whatever is coming to them), down the river for his own extremely selfish sake.
Sir Scumbag, or what?
jean7brodie 9th September 2018 at 14:19
paddy malarkey 9th September 2018 at 16:32
Naw, that's not me.
I never jump to conclusions, fly off the handle, dodge responsibilities, push my luck. I do get plenty of exercise through cycling, yes. I also think I am fairly moderate on here.
Do you disagree? Maybe I have misinterpreted?
jean7brodie 9th September 2018 at 17:50
Just my humour misfiring !
paddy malarkey 9th September 2018 at 16:32
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Mibbees the Internet Bampots could start a Crowd Funding page – to cover legal costs for any ex-EBT Rangers player who wants to try and enforce TRFC to honour the player's indemnity letter?
Of course it would get thrown out of court, but only following a legal validation that 'Rangers' no longer exists?
(Wishful thinking perhaps.)
But, I would definitely chip in for that hearing…
Just a further wee thought on the possibility of players' claims against the Rangers directors, or specifically the signatories to their EBT induced contracts, and that is – had there been no dishonesty once HMRC came calling, the players would then have been in a position to go after the still live Rangers Football Club to honour the promise within the side letters. Not only did Rangers/Murray and his less than honest executives encourage players to enter into an illegal tax avoidance scheme, their later actions prevented those players from pursuing the club under the indemnity provided by the officers of the club. At that time Murray was clearly playing for time to keep his failing empire a secret until he was in a position to lose as little of his personal wealth as possible. He sold a lot of people, including those players (whether or not we view them as deserving whatever is coming to them), down the river for his own extremely selfish sake.
Auldheid 9th September 2018 at 13:13
Darkbeforedawn 9th September 2018 at 11:34
I appreciate that £43k maybe isn't seen as a lot these days but as the average wage in the UK and Scotland is around the £23k mark then those at the higher tax band are doing relatively well and in the grand scheme of things can contribute a little more to help out with living in a more balanced and civilised society.
The different tax bands with the rest of the UK means that they never really had that money in the first place and if they are so upset then there are options to move to England to gain the tax 'advantage'. (One that is very quickly wiped out if you have a kid going to an English University or seeking to buy property in places like the south-east)
If, when earning a decent wage, paying a wee bit more tax means results in despising the SNP then it is perhaps understandable how easily it is for someone to turn a blind eye and support an enterprise that runs up massive bills on borrowed money and happy to see officials and players already earning hundreds of thousands a year to further line their pocket by denying the Her Majesty's tax officials their shilling.
In amongst the 50k filling Ibrox and making other contributions to the club via 1872, merchandising and the like then there will be many struggling to pay for their tickets and making hard choices between how to spend their disposable (or maybe borrowed) income.
How they can continue to support the greed and duplicity of the like of David Murray, Dave King and footballers on the take is beyond me.
The SNP and their tax policies is the least of their worries.
PMG suggesting that there may be action underway by the TOP re the planned share issue.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
redlichtie 9th September 2018 at 23:54
'…PMG suggesting that there may be action underway by the TOP re the planned share issue.'
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Ah, redlichtie,thanks for that . I've just read PmcG's piece, and I am pretty sure he will be correct in saying that the TOP may be trying to take some kind of action.
But, in my humble opinion, the TOP f.cked things up by making a balls of the use of the Courts.
They got what seemed to me to be a very reluctant Court order, and played right into the hands of that master/bastert of the art of using litigation to kick things into touch… for years, while he carries on without check.
They should have used their own powers, and ordered the cold shoulder treatment, never mind trying to get a Court to nail him.
They have now been shown to be toothless and ineffective as any kind of regulatory body able to control the devious exploiters of the many loopholes left in finance regulation by the Legislators.
Unless, perhaps, there is some masterplan. D'ye think?
redlichtie 9th September 2018 at 23:54
'…PMG suggesting that there may be action underway by the TOP re the planned share issue.'
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We might find out at the CoS on Tuesday.
I have just sent this to the TOP:
Dear Support Group,
I learn today that the TOP has written to the Chairman of Rangers International Football Club plc [aka that member of the concert party who has with impunity defied not only the order by the TOP that he should make a Rule 9 offer, but has also defied the order ( the very begrudgingly given order) of the Court of Session that he should do so] about the proposed issue of shares to selected investors only (pre-exemption rights having been disapplied)
I can say that I think the TOP has not done itself any favours by allowing itself to be bested by such an one as David Cunningham King, who was described by a judge in South Afric as a 'glib and shameless liar'.
It is difficult for a layman such as I to see why someone who defies both the TOP and the Courts is merely being 'written to'-instead of being 'cold shouldered' and/or done for contempt of Court.
Yours in (some kind of) belief in the integrity of financial market control,
(me)
redlichtie 9th September 2018 at 23:54 8 1 Rate This PMG suggesting that there may be action underway by the TOP re the planned share issue. Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
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Might I suggest you haud yer horses on that one, Redlichtie? Phil isn't saying it's necessarily bad news for King and RIFC that's contained within the 'missive', merely that he believes it's from the TOP. It might very well be confirmation that the share issue can go ahead.
The way things seem to pan out for this criminal makes me suspect that the letter might contain nothing more than an admonishment and to tell him he's been a very naughty boy while wishing him well for the future.
JC – all power to your fingers! Like many Bampots I feel like sending disparaging communications to all and sundry – but I am too lazy. However, it doesn't stop me in my admiration in your indefatigably wrt unresponsive public institutions. Whilst it may frustrate you, it 'absolutely' impresses me that you give both barrels on behalf of the guy on the street – who totally support you. You might not get satisfaction from earthly, biased, incompetent organisations…but you will get your reserved reward in Heaven… mibbes!
Ok I'm defence about my above post: 'earthly' – no idea. Predictive text. But King is still an unsmiling, skelly-eyed, bullshitter who can talk a good game.
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2018/9/4/new-projected-table-suggests-rangers-aberdeen-may-find-it-difficult-to-finish-top-three
If statistical analysis is not your thing then look away now. There’s no particular agenda being pushed and there are many caveats but interesting none the less.
StevieBC 10th September 2018 at 07:35
'…but you will get your reserved reward in Heaven… '
Ha ha, StevieBC, that's very reassuring- as long as we don't now get bogged down in theological discussion on Predestination!
Crowdfunding?
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/09/10/the-side-letter-time-bomb/
So getting away from the EBT discussion a bit, I was wondering what everyone's thought's on the state of our national game is? Why are we descending further into mediocrity every year while Northern Ireland and Wales etc all seem to be doing much better? It's something I've been debating a lot with friends with no real clear answers.
You could say the Bertie Vogts gamble backfired, but there is no doubt that at the time Smith, Burnley, Levein and Strachan were all the best managers we could get at that moment and yet none of them managed to take us even close to a tournament?
The argument for long enough was that Scottish teams were playing too many foreigners, but that is no longer the case. The current Celtic team – likely to go down as the most dominant in the history of the Scottish game – is made up with a core of Scottish players, from GK through defence, midfield and up front. We also have representation in many of the big English clubs (Man Utd, Liverpool etc). So clearly the quality of players are there.
Now many will point to the breakup of the USSR for increasing the competion, but that doesn't explain why a Northern Ireland or Wales can qualify for the Euro's, or why an Iceland with a fraction of the population can make back to back finals.
The ammount of kids clubs in football I'm sure I read is as high as it has ever been, so we have the foundations in youth in place.
So I guess I was just looking for everybody's opionion as to what on earth has happened to us the last 20 years to make us such a shambles? No doubt McLeish signing is an incredibly backwards step, but the rot setting in long long before he was appointed. Would even a Brendan Rogers, or a Michael O'Neill be able to do anything or are we forever more going to be the perenial underachievers?
I'm not quite sure what all the TD on my last post was for? It was a question on the demise of the Scotland football national team, on a forum called Scottish Football Monitor
It's a sobering thought that I'll probably never go to Hampden to see Scotland play again.
Time was I neither knew nor cared who the S.F.A. Chairman/ Secretary/ Chief Executive was.
Now I'm asked to pay through the nose and before a ball is kicked watch the National Manager, and at least a couple of pundits, stand proudly and sing the Unofficial National Anthem without a blush despite their history.
A bit of honesty and realism would be a start.
O Shame of Scotland
Don't want to see your like again
Who cheated and lied for
Your big bit pounds and pence
And hid the files from
Proud Hector's Army
Who sent you homeward
To think again.
Darkbeforedawn 10th September 2018 at 13:43
The TD's might reflect the fact that some folk disagree with some or all of your opinions . I am not too chuffed by the state of the National team or my own wee team , but I will turn up and support them anyway while others bail out . Bertie Vogts gets vilified wrongly in my opinion . He had to overhaul a team where most of the players were in their mid to late thirties , because a succession of previous managers had neglected to blood any new talent , relying on the old warhorses to grind out results . Nobody knew if we had any younger players who could step up , and people like James McFadden , who few outside Motherwell had heard of , were thrown into the limelight .There was/is a bias against players from the wee teams , who were deemed not to have the strength to carry the weight of the jersey – if they were good enough they would have been playing for one of the big two or a top English club .The fans could see other nations progressing and knew we were being held back by the Scottish football establishment and their jobs for the boys and patronising attitude . The whole set-up still appears corrupt and to be run like a golf or bowling club and in secrecy . We are also still suffering from the fallout of the teachers' dispute , and the voluntary input from schools has never been replaced . The kids were being coached by people who knew them and could be trusted .
As for managers , Smith and Levein are anti-football, more interested in game management that enterprise , Strachan had changed and was reaping the benefit of that when he was sacked , Burley didn't translate his management skills from club to international team management , and made a rod for is own back and attracted opprobrium from a large swathe of the support by declining to select Kris Boyd , causing him to spit the dummy oot and retire from international football . Big Eck wouldn't have been my choice and I know a lot of fans who won't attend until he's gone ., but he's good at managing players of the calibre of our squad . A wee bit of luck and a bit of belief from the players should see us at the Euros, but they're still young enough to learn and develop should we fail . Remember , we were seconds away from beating the soon-to-be World Cup semi-finalists and we beat their conquerors, Croatia , home and away in World Cup qualifiers in 2013 . All my opinion ,of course .
DBD 1417
There seems to be readers on here who select TDs for no real reason other than they don't like the poster. I previously asked that if they don't like the content then at least log on and say why. This might lead to a bit of debate and that, in my opinion, would be good for the site.
Paddy Malarky 1549 – look at your last line again: 2013: Big Eck wasn't anywhere near the squad then and I can't see that feat being repeated anytime soon.
PM, that's a very fair point about Croatia – I often forget we won those games. Like you I think we got rid of Strachan prematurely – he was playing some of the best football I have seen Scotland play, and he was desperately unlucky against then World Champions Germany, England, Poland and a number of other great teams.
Like you I feel Bertie Vogts got a bit of a raw deal but I think he was too continental for Scotland. He had far too many good philosophies that just didn't seem to work with our team. I also (again!!) blame the SFA for a lot of what went wrong with Bertie. The shocking decision to play so many friendlies against genuine world class sides completely destroyed our confidence in the early part of his reign and I don't feel he ever recovered. Then for every glimmer of hope (1-0 Holland) seemed to be followed by an absolute gubbing (6-0 Holland!). It's interesting that the 'anti football' managers like Brown and Smith had the most success, possibly because we don't have the players to play the nice football (which is bizarre considering a lot of those players are at teams that play very nice football?).
The teachers strike is an interesting one I hadn't really thought about. I just can't seem to see why so many smaller nations than ours can come good and make finals and we can't keep up with them. We used to always have our 'glorious failures' of being so close and cruelly taken from us. In recent years it's just been outright embarrasing failures.
For a while we were very unlucky with the groups we were drawn in (France, Italy and Ukraine in 2008 qualifying!) but in recent years the draws have been kinder.
Ballyargus 10th September 2018 at 16:03
Sorry , I didn't mean to suggest he was , any more than he was in charge v England
Thanks for the reply , DBD . You didn't have any TD's so I gave you one !
Haha thank you PM, so kind of you
. I've returned the favour! 
If I discovered that my local pub, which I had drank in for years and enjoyed, was exposed in watering the beer and short measuring the spirits, What would I do?
I would stop drinking there and never give them another penny of my ill gotten pension. That's what!
Substitute the SFA for my pub landlord and the cheating and corruption for the produce and you have my view on any initiative emanating from Hampden.
The Scottish, or any national team are merely the works team of their Association and therefore have no God given right to anyone's allegiance.
It is not a birthright.
To willingly fund a corrupt entity is to be complicit in it. It cannot function without financial support.
6:02pm
Radio Clyde
Alex Rae EBT.
Can't wait to hear what thay boays are doing wrong.
6:34pm
BBC Radio Scotland
Billy Dodds EBT
Running total=3
Tom the Tim
Imagine there was just the one pub in the village , and it was found to be watering down everybody's beers and spirits. First thing I would do was contact the authorities , then seek recompense . I enjoyed drinking there and there's no alternative that suits my needs/aspirations . I am not about to cut off my nose to spite my face but can understand why others would call it a day .
paddy malarkey 10th September 2018 at 18:51
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Tom the Tim
Imagine there was just the one pub in the village , and it was found to be watering down everybody's beers and spirits. First thing I would do was contact the authorities , then seek recompense . I enjoyed drinking there and there's no alternative that suits my needs/aspirations . I am not about to cut off my nose to spite my face but can understand why others would call it a day .
********
Paddy,
The authorities have been notified and I have been told to "move on", without recompense.
A carry out, (watch on telly) will do for me as I couldn't stand the thought of the landlord laughing at me.
It's only football, not a life saving necessity.
Is that alfredo naismith turning out for Scotland then missed a sitter.
shug 20.32
You'll never learn
.
He didn't score that was an own goal which I don't understand as naismith was offside so no idea why the goal stood.That one he just scored was a goal though.
shug 21.10.
No real interest in the game tbh shug but received a message that said "Naismith scoring at one end and McGregor saving at the other, just like the old days".
Both SFA and UEFA awarding the goal as a OG though to be fair to you.
Tom the Tim
I live in a house full of women and being allowed to watch the fitba' in peace with a cargo wouldn't happen . Best I get is when their men come up to watch but then I'm mein host and would be as well working in a bar . Each to his own , but I feel able to support the team rather than the Association . Hopefully, in time , everything is brought into the open and the guilty are punished but it doesn't always work out that way in life .
I was in that John Clark(e)'s local , The Horseshoe ,after the match and there were a few Albanian supporters and they reckoned we were better than the media – including the Scottish media – had led them to bbelieve .
paddy malarkey 10th September 2018 at 22:36
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Tom the Tim
I live in a house full of women and being allowed to watch the fitba' in peace with a cargo wouldn't happen . Best I get is when their men come up to watch but then I'm mein host and would be as well working in a bar . Each to his own , but I feel able to support the team rather than the Association . Hopefully, in time , everything is brought into the open and the guilty are punished but it doesn't always work out that way in life .
******
Paddy,
Don't worry, there is a simple solution.
Buy another telly and when the men folk come to call. repair to your favourite hostelry….the one that doesn't short measure or water the ale!
Just over 17k at Hampden with over a thousand of them Albanians.
A full Easter road/tynecastle or Pittodrie was the obvious venue for a game on a Monday night.
Same with some semi finals that have to be played at a half empty Hampden.
Absolute clowns at the SFA if we didn't know this already
(We did play fairly well though on a positive note 😉 )
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45483586
Interesting. My guess is this will be another step toward making the Champions League a closed shop for those considered "elite" who play in "trendy" leagues. Interested to see the detail though.
I cant believe all this hype about how well we played last night. Must be me. Must have watched a different game. In my opinion we were very average. The stray passes from Mcginn have to stop, if we had been playing a decent team we would have been in big trouble. Naismith header which hit the post was diabolical, any pro is told to hit/head across the keeper it was a dreadful miss as was his first "goal" clearly offside and an open goal he headed across the box the ball was never going in until it took a deflection off the defender. Russel was poor as was the normally very good Robertson. As to the crowd? Hope it was a boycott. SFA not fit for purpose in my opinion.
Nick 11th September 2018 at 10:15
There was some chat about this the other week.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveprice/2018/08/30/uefa-could-be-considering-third-european-competition/#6d80c7c26353
I can't see what they are dithering about, the end result is clearly going to be a European League possibly made up with 4 or 5 each from the big leagues or sixteen plus four others from elsewhere to give a 20 team league.
IMHO Uefa are just trying to hold on as long as they can and also perhaps trying to set up a decent 2nd and 3rd tier for them to manage once the big clubs just tell them to GTF and go their own way.
Not much to report from the CoS this morning in the King v TOP case.
The October 3rd date was confirmed for a one day debate on the points if law relating to contempt.
Lady Wolffe confirmed that her hubby, the Lord Advocate, would not be attending in person.
Counsel for King mentioned that there were issues as to whether King could be compelled to give evidence and potentially incriminate himself. He also questioned the burden on proof required for civil cases.
Lady Wolffe intimated that there was a possibility of the case being heard "in another place" (criminal court?)
King's counsel went on to mention the new share issue but seemed unsure whether or not TOP would require an offer to be made for the new shares. He said something along the lines of "making an offer for our shares" (that could be interpreted as the new shares taken up by third parties being viewed as part of the Concert Party holding).
Dates have been set aside for the substantive proof hearing to take place on 29/30 November.
The second case involving damage to advertising displays following the 2016 cup final has been delayed due to technical issues with transferring files from a usb stick to a laptop. This proof could last for a few days into early next week. Several witnesses have been called and there will be some video footage shown.
The cup final case took a surprising turn as a result of the earlier adjournment. During the break, The Football Company received and accepted an offer of £300k plus costs from Glasgow CC.
The only dispute remaining is about the costs claimed for the "skilled witnesses". Now waiting for Lady Wolffe to give her ruling on that.
At Hampden last night , there were two separate groups of Albanian fans who were kept apart by stewards . There were a lot of verbals and not a few objects cast between them before kick-off ,resulting in extra stewarding in the buffer zone . Anybody know what that was about ?
I was with my brother , a former cop , and he said that something similar had happened with some Russian team (my memory !)at Celtic Park – the official group were mostly former military and, though rough as a badger's proverbial , were disciplined and well behaved . The other group were less law abiding , robust , had a tour of carnage and eventually got kettled . They had to be kept separated also .
TAXING TIMES
“Real Madrid star Marcelo accepts four month suspended prison sentence and agrees to pay £1.1million over unpaid taxes”
From the Sun online. It’s everywhere apparently. I wonder if anyone in the SMSM will draw any comparisons?
I wouldn't expect to as they didn't when Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar were given suspended sentences last year and they are hugely bigger names than Marcelo. I don't know the complete ins and out's of the scenario's but I believe Marcelo and the other big names were caught out by the end of the 'Beckham Law' which meant footballers could take home much more of their pay on a far lower tax band. Since this was disbanded the players and agents used offshore account's to try and prove their income was not in Spain. There were a lot of complicated changes at the time and the players attempted to take advantage of loop holes at the time. I believe the three aforementioned players and a number of other big names were all given suspended prison sentences. Not many parallels I would say with the EBT players. And this is merely me pointing out the differences, not trying to make one out to be better or worse than the other.
easyJambo 11th September 2018 at 12:12
The only dispute remaining is about the costs claimed for the "skilled witnesses". Now waiting for Lady Wolffe to give her ruling on that.
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The Football Company had two reports prepared by their "skilled witnesses", one by TGI who were the suppliers of the both the damaged and replacement perimeter advertising, and the other was from OMM who provides assurance on compliance with UEFA regulations for adveristing. The Football Company was seeking costs for all the contributors to the reports (6 from TGI and 2 from OMM). Lady Wolffe only allowed the specialist costs for 2 from TGI and 1 from OMM.
Apparently, the reason that the damaged systems could not be repaired was that they manufacturer couldn't guarantee colour conformity between the replaced LEDs and the remainder of the system. The system had been manufactured in 2014 and were replaced by a new system in 2016.
The original quote for replacement was €1m, which was reduced and reduced again to a final claim for £550k.
I was disappointed that I didn't get to see the video recordings of the damage occurring, as it would have given an indication of which set of supporters, or both, were responsible.
easyJambo 11th September 2018 at 14.01
I was disappointed that I didn't get to see the video recordings of the damage occurring, as it would have given an indication of which set of supporters, or both, were responsible.
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I think, EJ, you can console yourself with the fact they were Scottish football supporters.
Chris McLaughlinVerified account @BBCchrismclaug 7m7 minutes ago
SFA statement on #Hampden. • buying from QP for £5 million • Lord Willie Haughey paying half • SRU made it tough call. • SFA want to create stadium to inspire fans
Darkbeforedawn@13.48
No parralells ?
Massively well paid footballers trying to avoid/evade/dodge paying tax.
It has now been revealed that Tom Hunter has paid the other half of the money to buy Hampden on top of what Willie Haughey committed. Both are fabulously wealthy men from working class upbringings and both have shown a great willingness in the past to help others less fortunate. I am however very intrigued as to whether their Hampden investment is based solely on emotion or do they get something else out of it?
For me though no matter the reason the bottom line is that Hampden remains a stadium with fit for purpose facilities only for the SFA, the media, and a large number of people who never pay to get into a game. Such altruistic individuals as Haughey and Hunter would do well to remember for the ordinary football fan it remains a very inadequate stadium divided by a form of class distinction, of which the ordinary fan is very much at the lower end, and this is by design not accident. Hampden sums the SFA up perfectly.
EJ, purely from the point of view of seeing Maurice Ross and Bob Malcolm being compared to Messi and Ronaldo I really hope the SMSM do run with it
UTH – can’t disagree with anything you say there. You could also add in its one of the least accessible, the furthest away from the action, and the worst atmosphere of any of the larger Scottish stadiums.
"SFA chief Executive Ian Maxwell said:
“Today is a big day for Scottish football. Hampden Park has been the spiritual home of Scottish football for over 100 years… But today’s decision is about the future, not the past."
&
“Our mission is to inspire a nation to love the game…"
============
Naw and Naw!
Today's decision is ALL about the past: retaining some/any link to a time when Scottish football had some global standing.
(A bit like TRFC sticking with a decrepit Ibrox to maintain a sentimental link to RFC.)
&
The SFA's ability to inspire has most recently resulted in Hampden attendances of just c.20K and c.17K – and this for competitive games.
The SFA needs to disband, for the good of Scottish football.
To be fair…
The blazered buffoons probably had no choice: if they moved out of Hampden, just think about what would be found crammed under the office carpets?
And how would they manage the disruption of clearing their desk, working out how to use a different office phone system, or how to access a differently named IT network…or even how to park in a totally different car park.
A move from Hampden could be too traumatic, so staying put seems like a humane decision for the SFA numpties.
IMO.
Darkbeforedawn 11th September 2018 at 18:13
UTH – can’t disagree with anything you say there. You could also add in its one of the least accessible, the furthest away from the action, and the worst atmosphere of any of the larger Scottish stadiums.
=============================
The last money they had from me for a Celtic game was the 2007 Scottish Cup Final. For a Scotland game it goes back to when Scotland beat Spain 3-1 in 1984 under Jock Stein. Don't get me wrong though, I fully respect the decision of anyone who goes to Hampden to watch club or country. It's a personal choice.
Going back to the redevelopment period IIRC around £60m was spent on a brand new South stand, with cosmetic work on the rest of the stadium. By that time the uncovered end and North Enclosure had been roofed, and the end already covered had a new roof put on. Seats were already installed. So basically almost £60m on one new stand for those and such as those. Just think what could have been achieved with that.
Darkbeforedawn 11th September 2018 at 17:48
EJ ……………………..
========================
I take it you meant to respond to Ex Ludo and not me.
Hampden mystery solved, by a Rangers fan on Twitter.
Hampden will be sold & bulldozed within 2 years. SFA will make £15m by selling to property developers. Haughey will make his £2.5m x2. SFA will play at Celtic Park & move into offices in the east end, they’ll also pay for redevelopment of Celtic Park.
What's the message that the SFA are trying to foist on us? That the great and the good and the super-rich endorse the rotten 5-Way Agreement by helping to save "Hampden…the spiritual home of Scottish Football for over 100 years"?
All the money from rich fans of either Celtic or of TRFC Ltd cannot obliterate the stain on the SFA, or restore that body to Integrity and Truth.
As far as I am concerned both Haughey and Hunter can stick their money up their jaxies (spelling?) because it signals to me that they themselves have bought into the Big Lie, and are prepared to support its propagation, instead of trying to restore Integrity to the game.
May their unsoundly based 'charity'(as if!) backfire on them.
Absolutely, JC!
And by investing in an SFA enterprise, (for no doubt a very healthy return), Hunter and Haughey automatically become dodgy / dodgier IMO, by association.
Interesting also that no financial institution seems to be involved either.
And who at the SFA has the authority to 'select' private individuals?
An option could have been to raise cash from the fans – the paying customers. Quite sure there is plenty of dodgy stuff going on in the background with this deal.
And what experience does the SFA CEO have of significant property deals…?
As with anything SFA related, this will come back to bite them on the bum further down the line, IMO.