Fergus McCann v David Murray

ByAuldheid

Fergus McCann v David Murray

How Celtic Turned the Tables on their Glasgow Rivals by Stephen O Donnell:
A Review by Auldheid.

Stephen’s previous publication, Tangled Up In Blue provided a detailed history of the rise and fall of Glasgow Rangers FC PLC from 1872 until their demise in 2012. Clearly a lot of research had been done to cover the period in such detail and his follow up publication Fergus McCann v David Murray etc carries on with that tradition. It is a smorgasbord of a book with many different issues succulently served up in its 350 pages.

It tells of events under David Murray’s tenure at Ibrox which began in November 1988 and ended in May 2011 when he left Craig Whyte holding the rope that became a noose just under a year later in April 2012 when Whyte was found guilty of bringing Scottish football into disrepute whilst Murray claimed he was duped.

Readers of the book will come to the conclusion that if anyone did the duping it was David Murray and it wasn’t just Craig Whyte he duped but Scotland’s national game. If ever Murray were to be tried for crimes against Scottish football then this book would be cited as evidence.

It was against the background of David Murray’s tenure at Rangers that Fergus McCann first arrived on the scene in April 1989 with proposals to inject £17M of New Capital into Celtic that the Celtic Board rejected as per minutes:

Proposals put forward by Fergus McCann to provide finance for various capital expenditures were unanimously rejected by the Directors’; and then again in August of the same year: ‘Mr McCann’s latest proposals were discussed and it was hoped that this was a final discussion on the subject. Latest proposals were rejected by Directors.
Fergus later returned to the fray and the chapter on how he was successful in ousting the Board in 1994 is an informative read, particularly if in that period single parenting cares took precedence over caring for Celtic.

I was amused reading the tale of discontent aimed at the old Board after a Ne’erday 4-2 defeat to Rangers in January 1994 when a bemused Walter Smith was watching the hostility aimed at the Celtic Directors box, one fan in the main stand screamed at him, ‘What are you looking at, it’s got fuck all to do with you.”

For me anyway there were a few “not a lot of people know that” moments like that in the book.
The contrast between Fergus McCann’s and David Murray’s style was immediately evident, but the impact of Fergus’s shorter tenure from 1994 to 1999 became more than evident after McCann left and the author does not miss the role servile journalists played and hit the wall for turning Celtic supporters against McCann during his tenure, whilst they dined on Murray’s succulent lamb. A role that in the end helped bring about Rangers end, but not the culture of servility when covering the activity of Rangers FC PLC successor club from 2012.

Sky TV get it in the neck too and if David Murray played the part of Colonel Mustard in killing Scottish football through his financial recklessness and duplicity, Sky are the lead pipe whose toxicity still dictates the nature of the current state of play.( I said it was a Smorgasbord)

Fergus kind of did what it said on the tin. In his case a tin of nippy sweeties, but it was interesting to read about his early years when even then he was described as “a cheeky upstart” but his “idiosyncrasies” and appearance under a bunnet, disguised a sharp if impatient business mind where for him getting straight to the point was akin to procrastination.

So too has Murray’s early years been covered including his rejected attempt to buy Ayr Utd, a rejection by Ayr Directors, who considered Murray was too hot headed and most volatile, that infuriated him.

Their conclusion that he was trying to get Ayr United on the cheap with only £125k of his own money involved was an indicator of his strategy of using other people’s money to invest and not his own. Other people including unsuspecting taxpayers to a tune of £50 million or so.

As you follow the narrative of both Fergus McCann and David Murray and the events that surrounded them, you end up wondering how so many could have been fooled for so long by one guy, but when you have the Scottish media in your pocket it was difficult to separate fact from fiction during the tenure of both. You also wonder how Murray remains a Knight of the Realm since.

Luckily for Celtic Fergus knew business fact from PR fiction and avoided the illusion in which Celtic’s main rivals continue to struggle to this day.

The great pity is that few, if any of the Scottish main stream media will even give this book a mention, because if you don’t write about it, it never happened, except it did and this book is proof.

I therefore recommend anyone interested in the future of our game buys it and asks, is it not now time to revisit the purpose of Scottish football?

Auldheid

About the author

Auldheid author

Celtic fan from Glasgow living mostly in Spain. A contributor to several websites, discussion groups and blogs, and a member of the Resolution 12 Celtic shareholders' group. Committed to sporting integrity, good governance, and the idea that football is interdependent. We all need each other in the game.

1,240 Comments so far

wottpiPosted on10:42 am - Aug 14, 2020


ernie 14th August 2020 at 10:07

Well said Ernie and served up in the best SFM fashion with a bit of humour.

Saved me from penning a long piece trying to justify why UTH’s post is one of the biggest pieces of illogical nonsense (or as some would say ‘conjecture’) I’ve seen on the site for a long time.

All governments of all persuasions across the UK currently have more to worry about than football. It is the football authorities, clubs and players who have a moral duty to do their best to manage themselves in a responsible manner given the concessions given to them to restart. Simples!! Daft conspiracy theories help no-one.

While I am on,  I note the decision to stop Hearts from continuing with their planned and agreed training regime. Like a cowardly ‘Souness/McCluskey kick from behind’  this time the ‘footballing authorities’ have their hands out by his sides and are trying to put the blame of the straight taking Prof Jason Leitch.

What lily-livered cowards we have running our game.

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upthehoopsPosted on10:49 am - Aug 14, 2020


Ernie 20th August 2020 @ 10:07

+++++++++++

So I will ask again why Kilmarnock were allowed to play the other night? It would have been unfair without a doubt, but if public health was the only concern then so be it. It's to punish Aberdeen and Celtic. 

I think it's naive to think Sturgeon is not flexing her muscles, and with Aberdeen and Celtic being the two clubs it's unlikely there would be too much outcry. Maybe both should stop paying their tax to elicit some sympathy. 

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adam812Posted on11:26 am - Aug 14, 2020


During lockdown and since unlocking I have been impressed on a daily basis by the clarity of delivery of information from the Scottish Government and its advisors. Difficult messages have been presented in an understandable manner and the willingness to admit to making mistakes is to be admired.

I don't believe that it is possible, however, to say that mistakes are always admitted or that all decisions are made without considering the political consequences.

The exams fiasco seems to me to be a great example where admitting a huge mistake and correcting it brings a largely positive reaction from the public and the media.

The fact that they allowed the SQA to use an algorithm to downgrade results is being corrected but they will not change the results of the kids, with rich parents, attending high achieving schools who had their grades upped.

They did this because on the basis of historical results the computer says the teachers underestimated their results. No apology for that unbelievable decision although I expect you wouldn't want to upset rich parents who might consider court action! 

I would suggest that it is likely that political thinking comes into a lot of the decisions relating to football not just by the Government but also by the governing bodies. Whatever decisions they take what is guaranteed is that not everyone will be happy. A player heading to Spain makes it easy for the politicians though! 

One final thought. If the SPFL used the SQA algorithm to decide this year's league placings taking historical standings from the last 10 years into account just imagine the outcry. Maybe it would be karma though! 

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incredibleadamsparkPosted on11:45 am - Aug 14, 2020


Purely for balance I hope another poster will be along soon to offer us the other cheek of the conspiratorial derrière….

 

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erniePosted on12:18 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Why are the Dons and Celtic not playing this week?  Because they evidently (i.e.the evidence is actual) do not have the processes in place to comply with the specific requirements of the arrangement that enable their "elite" sport to continue.  As we go forward I suspect they will be seen as having got off with it lightly.

I said, prior to a big team getting involved. that Aberdeen should have had the points forfeited to St J and that by not doing so the SPFL were creating a problem for the future.  That has happened and it only took days.  It will happen again.  But a conspiracy?

 

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Cluster OnePosted on12:35 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Police lawyers have spent more than a week interviewing a detective who allegedly “manipulated” the legal system during an investigation at Rangers, a court has been told.

Andrew Smith, QC, told Lord Tyre during a procedural hearing at the Court of Session yesterday that lawyers acting for Police Scotland had spent 200 hours speaking to Detective Chief Inspector Jim Robertson.

Mr Smith is acting for David Grier, 58, a business restructuring expert who is suing Police Scotland for £2 million.

Mr Grier says that he was wrongly arrested during an investigation, led by Mr Robertson, into allegations of criminal behaviour during the sale of rangers in 2011.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lawyers-spend-200-hours-grilling-rangers-officer-b0h622vsn
Aug 12, 2020
…………….
Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.
…………………………..
Small comment if i may?
I always laugh when anything to do with this case it will be mentioned as something like, during the sale of rangers in 2011.
Everything pre 2012 and Craig whyte is mentioned as the sale of rangers.No company myth or anything else.
Anything after Feb 2012 and you will have ibrox fans and the media try and tell you it was the company that went bust.
How any ibrox fan or anyone in the media with half a brain don’t look at themselves and say What the feck am i doing, and who am i trying to kid, with the company went bust.
The only people they are trying to kid are themselves, and they must know how stupid they look.

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adam812Posted on12:36 pm - Aug 14, 2020


incredibleadamspark

I look forward someone doing just that.

On twitter there are so many people who abuse you for comments made just because they seem to think the politicians they support don't ever make decisions that are political but on SFM it has generally been different.

I have been thinking for a while whether or not I wish to continue being part of the noble cause of the SFM. 

Over the summer many people had different opinions but were normally treated with respect but not by everyone. Some people showed intransigence and some were just blinkered.

Thumbs up and down were removed for an understandable reason but they allowed people to express opinions, albeit not always easily, about others posts

A few on here seem to feel that they now can be blunt to the point of rudeness – not incredibleadamspark I should stress –  but it spoils it for me. 

I worked with many wonderful people to support them in times of need and distress but I also with abusive people, some who threatened to kill me, some who committed heinous crimes but I always tried to deal with them all professionally. This may leave me over sensitive but it is who I am and I struggle to cope with rudeness no matter who to. 

Thank you all for some great reading.

 

 

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upthehoopsPosted on1:06 pm - Aug 14, 2020


WOTTPI @ 19:42

Mock me all you like. By allowing Kilmarnock to play on Wednesday was akin to the track and trace system identifying people who were in a pub and close to someone who failed to quarantine and then saying only some had to isolate. I don’t really care what anyone thinks about conspiracy theories or whatever. Kilmarnock were allowed to play so the whole thing is farcical in my view. It was political.

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POR CIERTOPosted on1:30 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Kilmarnock players were either in the vicinity of someone who may have been exposed to the virus, and the officials, more so the 4th official who was right beside him for a length of time, or they were not. No ifs, no buts, no maybes. Their players and staff and the match officials should be isolating. The same as everybody in that pub who were there when the dons players were in having their player of the game awards ceremony, they’ve had to quarantine along with those other punters too. Why do Kilmarnock Fc, the match officials, especially the 4th official, and their staff get a bye? Why?

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easyJamboPosted on1:33 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Cluster One 14th August 2020 at 12:35

Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.

=================================

Yes. It was one of the cases we were following. I hope that the courts are fully reopened by the time the case reaches the proof (trial) stage, as I would like to see DCI Roberson in the witness box explaining why he did what he did.

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easyJamboPosted on1:40 pm - Aug 14, 2020


upthehoops 14th August 2020 at 13:06

POR CIERTO 14th August 2020 at 13:30

===============================

You both seem to miss the main difference in the circumstances of the Aberdeen and Celtic players.

Two of the Aberdeen players tested positive, so it was correct that those in their vicinity had to self isolate.

No Celtic player tested positive so there was no need for self isolation. It is simply an offence not to quarantine on return from Spain, for which I believe the player has been given a fixed penalty by the police, plus whatever the club/SFA/SPFL choose to do.

Contact tracing in Scotland only kicks in when someone has tested positive.  

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easyJamboPosted on2:25 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Aberdeen FC@AberdeenFC

Our internal investigation is now complete & has confirmed a breach of AFC COVID-19 protocols and government guidance. As a result, players have been severely reprimanded and fined heavily. The Club has chosen to donate these fines to NHS Grampian.

http://bit.ly/3kM2dxt

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on2:26 pm - Aug 14, 2020


‘easyJambo 14th August 2020 at 13:40

…No Celtic player tested positive so there was no need for self isolation. It is simply an offence not to quarantine on return from Spain, for which I believe the player has been given a fixed penalty by the police, plus whatever the club/SFA/SPFL choose to do…’

################################

Why, then, did the the Nation’s Micro-Managing Mammy get involved? Isn’t failure to observe quarantine a matter for Police Scotland? Did she comment on a live police case? It’s possible to think that Bolingoli received his FPN because of the FM’s involvement, rather than the judgement of Police Scotland.

All the St.Mirren players were Covid19 clear. All the CFC players were too. Bolingoli wasn’t available for selection as he was self-isolating: yet the match was called off

Ms. Sturgeon has little or no interest in sport. ‘Recommending’ postponements to the SFA/SPFL isn’t about football & its failings, it’s about optics & political grandstanding against an all-too-easy opponent.

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incredibleadamsparkPosted on2:40 pm - Aug 14, 2020


adam1820

I really hope the sarcasm of my post didn’t make you think it was in any way critical of any of your comments. I agree with them 100%. I was responding to the same post that you were. Clearly not as eloquently as you so I really hope there isn’t a misunderstanding here.
 

There has been quite a bit of conspiracy theories recently regarding Peter Lawwell and I find them as tedious as ones coming from the others side. 

Please do continue to post and I’ll dial down the sarcasm and try to be as informative as you have been. 

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adam812Posted on2:51 pm - Aug 14, 2020


incredibleadamspark 

Sorry I tried to make it clear it wasn’t you and I’d like to stress the majority of contributers treat others with respect but just I struggle when it doesn’t happen whether it’s to me or someone else. 

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incredibleadamsparkPosted on3:00 pm - Aug 14, 2020


adam182

 

Agreed. We should all be respectful of others and that’s generally what happens on here. That does not stop us disagreeing agreeably when it comes to the fitba. I think we’re all looking for the same thing. 

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upthehoopsPosted on3:58 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Jingso.Jimsie 14th August 2020 at 14:26

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The real irony for me is Sturgeon's comments about footballers thinking they are subject to different rules. It seems they are, but not in the way she means. I doubt she would stand there mouthing off about every MacDonalds closing down because one employee failed to observe the rules on quarantine. I doubt also she would threaten to close Holyrood if one of her MSP's did likewise. 

While never losing sight of how irresponsible Bolingoli's actions were, the media's thirst for blood gave Sturgeon the opportunity to politically grandstand. It was also quite an eye opener just how many in the Scottish media seemed very keen for Celtic to be thrown out of Europe, with many bombarding UEFA in the apparent hope it would happen. Meanwhile Athletico Madrid were participating in the Champions League despite two of their squad having tested positive. Like most things in Scotland it seems to depend on what club is involved. As has been said earlier other clubs failed to adhere to testing rules but the media and Sturgeon were absolutely fine with that. Why? 

 

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bordersdonPosted on4:00 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Fairly predictable statement from AFC.

Aberdeen Football Club has completed its internal investigation into the actions of eight players last week. The investigation confirmed that these players breached the Club’s COVID-19 protocols and government guidance.

AFC Chairman, Dave Cormack, said: “These players made a huge mistake. They not only went against government guidance but also breached our own COVID-19 procedures, set out by the Club to all players and staff. Due to the privilege that has been afforded to professional footballers, and having witnessed the outrage and anger their actions provoked, they are in no doubt that they have let themselves and the Club down. They are truly sorry and have apologised unreservedly to the First Minster, health and footballing authorities, the fans, the Manager, the rest of the squad, our staff and board and the wider community.”

“As a result of our investigation, these players have been severely reprimanded and fined heavily. Contractually, the specifics must remain confidential between the Club and each player but, rest assured, the financial fines are in line with the severity of the consequences of their actions.

“The Club has chosen to donate these fines to NHS Grampian.

“We fully appreciate the outpouring of dismay and anger by those who have been impacted by this virus, by those who have worked selflessly to protect us and by our fans, who have, despite health and financial worries, supported the Club with their hard-earned cash during this period.

“Their actions were indefensible but the investigation has been completed, they have apologised, they have been punished by the Club, and are suffering the humiliation that goes with making a mistake in the public eye.

“The Club, like every employer, has a duty of care to its staff and we must also consider the wellbeing of these players, who continue to face an ongoing barrage of criticism and personal abuse from many quarters. They’ve been taught the harshest of lessons and have the chance to redeem themselves and help demonstrate that the Club is better and bigger than this regrettable episode.

“I can only hope that Dons fans and the Aberdeen community will remember the tremendously positive work the Club and Trust, including staff, volunteers and the players, have delivered during this pandemic, and help us all heal from this."

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easyJamboPosted on7:00 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Jingso.Jimsie

Why, then, did the the Nation’s Micro-Managing Mammy get involved? 

++++++++++++++

I don't think this is the right forum to express political views, but perhaps she felt that there were concerns about the level of compliance and education among those who are only permitted to work as a result of special arrangements.

That might be the reason that the JRG has acknowledged such a need and implemented sanctions and an education programme appropriate to the maintainance of the special status that football enjoys at this time. 

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Cluster OnePosted on7:37 pm - Aug 14, 2020


easyJambo 14th August 2020 at 13:33
Yes. It was one of the cases we were following. I hope that the courts are fully reopened by the time the case reaches the proof (trial) stage, as I would like to see DCI Roberson in the witness box explaining why he did what he did.
………………
lOOKING FOWARD TO SEEING YOU GUYS IN COURT. IN A GOOD WAY;-)

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John ClarkPosted on10:05 pm - Aug 14, 2020


Cluster One 14th August 2020 at 12:35

'Don’t know if the court guys would have been to this if every thing was normal as such.'

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

I think I can safely say that there is not one aspect of

the sports and tax cheating by RFC of 1872 under SDM,

the sale of the cheating club to CW,

the subsequent asset-stripping Administration which resulted not in the saving of the club by payment of its debts but in  its Liquidation and death as a participating cub in Scottish Football,

the admission of a brand new  football club  and the lie that was created that the new club was continuity RFC of 1872, its sporting record seamlessly surviving Liquidation while its huge debts remained unsettled,

the subsequent setting-up of  a plc which went to the Market on the basis of a very questionable Prospectus that appears not to have been questioned at the time by the FCA

and the various criminal and civil court actions associated with all of the above,

that is not of absorbing interest to me

I miss the visits to Court. They can be illuminating and quite fun. 

And I hope that in one way or another I shall soon  be able to hear/see any further 'live' actions involving former Administrators, or Liquidators, or Police officers, Crown Agents, Lords Advocate, Advocate-Deputes and uncle Tom Cobley and all  in any case bearing on the disgraceful 'saga'.

 

 

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John ClarkPosted on11:58 pm - Aug 14, 2020


reasonablechap 14th August 2020 at 23:00

Bang on cue, reasonable chap!

I love it when any post of mine that reminds folk of the deep rottenness of the cheating RFC of 1872

and of the fact that it is in Liquidation

and the fact that TRFC are essentially a living sporting lie by claiming to be what they are in law and in sport and in common sense most certainly not!

immediately brings you and your alter egos into deflective mode!

You must know that all the deflection in the world cannot hide the Truth, try as you and the RIFC plc board and the TRFC board might.

TRFC is a living untruth, trying to make money on the back of a now dead club that was formed in my grandfather’ time.

Truth always prevails. 

And I quote again that wonderful sotto voce remark of Galileo Galilei  in relation to his difficulties with the authorities on the question of whether the earth is central and the sun moves round it :’ eppure si muove

i.e. you can say , and force me to say, that the earth does not move round the sun, but whatever you say, it does in fact move round the sun!

The SFA and the SPFL can lie with all their might, but TRFC is not RFC of 1872, because RFC of 1872 is there in front of their very eyes, alongside Third Lanark and Gretna in the grave of football Liquidation.

 

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reasonablechapPosted on5:15 am - Aug 15, 2020


John Clark 14th August 2020 at 23:58

Bang on cue, reasonable chap!

I love it when any post of mine that reminds folk of the deep rottenness of the cheating RFC of 1872

===============&&

Hate to break it to you but seeing as you lke the truth, I gave up reading your predictable and repetitive posts a good while back.

A glance suffices, to note a couple of the customary words/numbers and I pass. 

 

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upthehoopsPosted on8:25 am - Aug 15, 2020


Pictures all over social media of the Rangers management team and coaching staff in a pub, failing to socially distance as they cosy up with fans for photos. The media are not interested. The problem in a nutshell. It all depends what club is involved. 

Scotland – the most bigoted wee country in the world. 

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shugPosted on8:41 am - Aug 15, 2020


upthehoops 15th August 2020 at 08:25

Pictures all over social media of the Rangers management team and coaching staff in a pub, failing to socially distance as they cosy up with fans for photos. The media are not interested. The problem in a nutshell. It all depends what club is involved. 

Scotland – the most bigoted wee country in the world. 

==============================================

Also unconfirmed rumour from phil of an other spfl player also in spain recently on family business who may not have followed the correct protocol if true let us hope that in the interests of sporting integrity that the media will release this information as well but don't hold your breath.

https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/08/13/the-pandemic-season/

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upthehoopsPosted on9:51 am - Aug 15, 2020


Shug 15th August 2020 @ 08:41

++++++++++

You could provide the media with screenshots of flight bookings and they still wouldn't run with it. Also, imagine Neil Lennon was breaking social distancing rules and cosying up for photos with fans in pubs outwith his 'bubble'. Imagine also that after doing so Lennon then sat in front of the media and piously claimed everyone at his club stuck to the rules 100%. Imagine also that the First Minister had internet access and was able to see these breaches for herself, yet said nothing. What an absolutely f*cked up nation we live in. 

No doubt the usual suspects will be out to tell me I am just paranoid, and that our saintly Government treat everyone equally.  So I hope everyone keeps safe and well over the coming months. I'm out. I don't see anything here for me anymore. I wish you all well.

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StevieBCPosted on10:12 am - Aug 15, 2020


JC, you're very naughty!

Bear-baiting is illegal, (and too easy).

As long as Scottish football supports the continuation lie, the game will never learn – and will never "move on".

One deviant club, (pretending to be a much worse, dead club),  is perennially holding back Scottish football.

Karma and/or hubris will get the club in the end though…

broken heart

 

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erniePosted on10:23 am - Aug 15, 2020


I’m hearing 8 game ban for the 8 Dons and Celtic also punished, they have to play Boli every game. 
 

 

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John ClarkPosted on10:45 am - Aug 15, 2020


I like the odd puzzle and enjoy the occasional riddle so my morning was brightened when I read this :

”  The correct thing that should have been  done is that in these matches Aberdeen and Celtic should both have forfeited the game…And indeed the game between the two of them, Celtic v Aberdeen, should also be shown as having been played in the played column, with both handed a 0-3 defeat

Has Leslie Deans’ very understandable emotional state upset the balance of his legal mind? or is it actually in the rules that a game that is deemed to have been played can be deemed to have been lost by both the teams? 

(page 47, ‘ The Scotsman’ today., no author byline)

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Cluster OnePosted on5:22 pm - Aug 15, 2020


John Clark 15th August 2020 at 10:45
And indeed the game between the two of them, Celtic v Aberdeen, should also be shown as having been played in the played column, with both handed a 0-3 defeat”
………………..
That is a cracker

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John ClarkPosted on12:23 am - Aug 16, 2020


' That's all down to the compliance officer' says Maxwell.

I've just listened to the podcast of today's 'Sportsound'. 

Honest to God! was there ever an organisation so ready to claim to have regard for 'judicial impartiality' as the lying SFA?

That  the CEO of a 'governance' body which sanctions the most monstrous sporting lie  in sporting history can even pretend that Scottish Football governance believes in 'judicial impartiality' is an insult to anyone of the most meagre intelligence!

The sheer feckin hypocrisy of it all is apparent. 

Scottish Football?

As dirty an enterprise as anything that an Al Capone might have been interested in!

 

 

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Cluster OnePosted on10:40 am - Aug 16, 2020


John Clark 16th August 2020 at 00:23

‘ That’s all down to the compliance officer’ says Maxwell.
…………………
the compliance officer will be busy just now with collecting the charges against the ibrox board and players for bringing the game into disrepute during the summer. Or is she still in shock reading the ibrox dozzier that will bring down scottish football?

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wottpiPosted on3:09 pm - Aug 16, 2020


As discussed it doesn't really matter regards Aberdeen v Celtic as the Board has postponed and rescheduled as per the existing rules.

However the Leslie Deans argument of both teams having to forfeit the game 3-0 is technically interesting.

It is almost always the case that if something has gone wrong it is one team that is the subject of wrong doing. I can't think of an example of two teams doing wrong at the same time.

So, let's say a game went ahead and both teams were found later to have played ineligible players. You would expect the same punishment to be dealt out to both. 

Say the above scenario  was a league game that ended in a draw. It would not be fair on the rest of the league that both teams gained a point and the result was left to stand just because the outcome was 'even' with both teams being  guilty of the same offense. 

 A fine alone wouldn't resolve the unfairness to the rest of the league as the offending teams would still have gained a point that could be crucial come the end of the season.

One solution would be to replay the game. But is that not just giving the offenders a second chance? Another option would Deans' suggestion that both forfeit the match thus not gaining any points and being 'punished in terms of goal difference (0-3) in recognition of their offence. 

Clearly his lawyerly view but perhaps not as daft as it first seems.

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Big PinkPosted on8:54 am - Aug 17, 2020


wottpi
I personally don’t think it is daft at all except for the notion that a club might be sanctioned for playing ineligible players?
It is an interesting debate though. The players involved have been involved in off-field activity which transgresses the law. So should their clubs be punished?
On the other hand, the SPFL have deemed that transgression worthy of postponement, so it does impact on other clubs.
I must confess that the cut and dried nature of my response to the Aberdeen situation gave way to a more nuanced approach when my own team became embroiled in it.
I suppose it comes down to whether or not we agree that the clubs should be culpable or not. On balance, I feel they should be, but as I say, I’m not as convinced as I was when Celtic weren’t in the middle of it?

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bect67Posted on9:52 am - Aug 17, 2020


The idea of punishing Aberdeen and Celtic for player transgressions regarding Covid is not just daft – it's preposterous claptrap!

If, say, a teacher breaks the guidelines, does the education authority get punished?

No – people have to see thorough this 'agenda driven' nonsensical suggestion – aimed primarily (though admittedly not exclusively) at harming Celtic's 10IAR efforts by those with allegiance to the liquidated outfit..

While I'm on, could anyone who feels Aberdeen and Celtic should be deducted points (whit?!) remind me where Sevco's recent flaunting of the law come in all of this ?

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HighlanderPosted on11:34 am - Aug 17, 2020


bect67 17th August 2020 at 09:52

“people have to see thorough this 'agenda driven' nonsensical suggestion”

_____________________________________________

Might I suggest there may be two ways of looking at this, the second of which involves an entirely different agenda, that 10IAR must be achieved at all costs, therefore Celtic must not suffer a points deduction?

When seen through tinted specs that are not of a green or red hue, Bolingoli and the eight Dons players broke rules which were specific to their employment as footballers whose clubs had obtained special dispensation to play during a pandemic – providing those rules were strictly adhered to. It matters not a jot whether they were on or off duty, the nine offenders broke rules which not only affected their own clubs, but others too, and could have had life or death consequences in a worst case scenario.

The argument that the club should not be held accountable for the actions of one rogue player/employee gives credence to the notion that Rangers FC shouldn’t be punished for the actions of individual rogues such as David Murray or Craig Whyte, for example.

While I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law, unfortunately your comment smacks of whataboutery. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Finally, while I’m briefly here, I was sorry to read that UpTheHoops has decided to retire from posting on here, because I genuinely enjoyed his input. I mean no disrespect therefore when referring to his final post by saying that if everyone has it in for Celtic to the extent that UTH reported, then they’ve done a pretty pathetic sabotage job considering Celtic have won nine in a row, are odds-on favourites for 10IAR and have won a treble-treble and eleven consecutive trophies.

As I’ve said on here before, try being a ‘diddy-team’ supporter for a month or two and you’ll maybe appreciate only being the second most cosseted club in Scotland.

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wottpiPosted on11:48 am - Aug 17, 2020


Big Pink 17th August 2020 at 08:54

It is indeed a difficult one as there are plenty of examples of players breaking the law or doing something stupid across the years.

However these 'infringements' by Aberdeen and Celtic players have had a direct impact on the league and other clubs, therefore have to be considered in a different light from a player being arrested for a fight in a kebab shop. A second wave and fixture congestion later in the year may become very interesting.

The issue is that the football authorities and the SPFL in particular have only came up with a short term idea of 'give us executive powers' with apparently no explanation to anyone what that may have entailed.

If they had spent an appropriate amount of time explaining what powers, rules and punishments they may have been considering, then clubs may have been more inclined to pass a resolution.

As it is we have Scottish football in limbo, once again, with daft and inconsistent decision being made.

(Hearts (& PT , Stranraer) did no harm to anyone but got relegated. Hearts did no harm to anyone but now can't train.)

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bect67Posted on12:44 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Highlander

Nothing personal – but sometimes I feel I just have to respond!

My comment is indeed about whataboutery – a perfectly legitimate ‘weapon’ in challenging what, in this situation and in my humble opinion, an idiotic argument (I meant to include the subtle digs from SMSM).

To compare  Murray/Whyte criminal actions to this health issue – which we are all powerless over – is, frankly, in itself nonsensical. Please note that neither Celtic nor Aberdeen were complicit in, indeed were ignorant of,  the actions of their players. The same could not be said of Oldco, the Banks and the SMSM.

Finally, give me a break about my ‘green tinted specs’.  – which I have proudly worn my entire life in the face of, let’s just call it anti Celtic factions, in Scotland.

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HighlanderPosted on1:46 pm - Aug 17, 2020


bect67 17th August 2020 at 12:44

Similarly, nothing personal, but 'Whoooooshhhh!', in my opinion – a differing opinion which we're each entitled to hold.

I wasn't intent on likening the seriousness of the Murray/Whyte offences to those of Bolingoli etc, only attempting to highlight the feeble defence that the players 'went rogue' so the club is blameless; that's the club that is supposedly commited to educating its staff about the serious consequences of failing to follow protocols as per the terms of restarting the Scottish Premiership.

I'll leave it at that.

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Cluster OnePosted on1:48 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Highlander 17th August 2020 at 11:34
The argument that the club should not be held accountable for the actions of one rogue player/employee gives credence to the notion that Rangers FC shouldn’t be punished for the actions of individual rogues such as David Murray or Craig Whyte, for example.
………………
Every thing they signed off on would have been signed off on rangers football club headed paper.David Murray ran up a huge debt in rangers name. 276 creditors would not be looking to craig whyte for their money.
…………………….
While I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law, unfortunately your comment smacks of whataboutery. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

What is wrong with asking for a level playing field? Are you suggesting it is ok to punish some clubs for rule breaking and not others?
If the SFA or the SPFL want to rake over old coals to dish out punishment, what is stopping them going back to the start?
Or rather why would they not go back to the start?

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HighlanderPosted on2:08 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Cluster One 17th August 2020 at 13:48

"Aye but it wuznae wur club that overspent pyoor mullions, it wiz that wee shyte Whyte that went rogue and put the holding company into adminiliquidation."

No, I'm not suggesting it's ok to punish some clubs for rule breaking and not others – that's why I specifically said "I totally agree we should be asking what happened to Sevco’s flouting of the law." 

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Corrupt officialPosted on3:34 pm - Aug 17, 2020


      All of the infractions in protocols carried identical risks if not followed. That risk being the further transmission of the virus. In that respect they are all equal and there are no mitigating factors. We have all been living, and attempting to deal with it for long enough to know the score and transmission causes. 

      Retrospective action, if it is to be taken,  should include all retrospective infractions. It is not rocket science. The game was shut down in March, and that is where the calendar of retrospective action should begin. 

    Personally I don't agree with retrospective action for a multiple of reasons, but, for the game to continue, action MUST be taken to move forward. (again I don't agree with all of "must")

     Any action should be from now going forth, and clearly defined, or from a calendar start of March. There cannot be a selective calendar of exclusion.  

   

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paddy malarkeyPosted on4:09 pm - Aug 17, 2020


According to Tom English , TRFC spent the followng on players 

 £7m Kent, £4m Ianis Hagi, £3.5m Kemar Roofe, £2.5m Cedric Itten 

Not according to Steven Gerrard ,

He told the PA news agency: “The numbers for Kemar and Cedric that have been suggested in the media aren’t right. The figures suggested are inflated.

Who to believe .

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HomunculusPosted on4:31 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Corrupt official 17th August 2020 at 15:34

As people have pointed out, if preventing transmission of the virus was the point in postponing games then why did the other games go ahead.

Kilmarnock played in their next game, presumably the match officials were available for selection. If prevention of transmission was the point then everyone in contact with Boligoli should have been involved.

Am I not also right as saying he was confirmed as being negative prior to the next scheduled game going ahead.

I'm afraid it's all getting more confusing for me, postponing the games served no purpose that I can see. Other than to worsen the potential backlog of fixtures, and the innocent clubs will be involved in that as well.

Forgive me if I am missing something obvious here. 

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paddy malarkeyPosted on5:16 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Narrative beginning to unravel ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944

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easyJamboPosted on5:37 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Interesting appointment as CEO at Hearts as Ann Budge takes a step back, although she remains as chairman.

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/andrew-mckinlay-appointed-chief-executive

I'm sure Auldheid will recognise the name of Andrew McKinlay as a former Director of Governance and Football Regulation at the SFA, as the Res 12 lawyers were in correspondence with him back in 2015. 

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easyJamboPosted on5:43 pm - Aug 17, 2020


paddy malarkey 17th August 2020 at 17:16

Narrative beginning to unravel ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It would not surprise me if Charles Green was to achieve a similar result to Imran Ahmad for wrongful prosecution.

It could also be a precursor to the D&P guys being successful in their actions against the LA and Police Scotland, although I'd like to know what it was that has triggered this volte-face by the Crown.

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HomunculusPosted on5:54 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Can anyone remember who Imran Ahmad was supposed to have defrauded and how he was supposed to have done it. 

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easyJamboPosted on6:06 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 17:54

Can anyone remember who Imran Ahmad was supposed to have defrauded and how he was supposed to have done it. 

=================================

It was the fraudulent acquisition of the club’s business and assets from the administrators via Sevco 5088/Scotland

you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, DAVID JOHN WHITEHOUSE, PAUL JOHN CLARK, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, did conspire together to defraud the creditors of the Club of funds and assets lawfully available to them and to allow you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, to fraudulently acquire from the Joint Administrators, control, de facto control and ownership of the business and assets of the Club through Sevco 5088 Limited, a company incorporated under the Companies Acts with company number 8011390 and having its registered office at 35 Vine Street, London and Sevco Scotland Limited, a company incorporated under the Companies Acts with company number SC425159 and having its registered office at Capella, 60 York
Street, Glasgow for a consideration significantly below the true market value of the said business and assets and in furtherance thereof:-

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Corrupt officialPosted on7:11 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 16:31

Corrupt official 17th August 2020 at 15:34

       As people have pointed out, if preventing transmission of the virus was the point in postponing games then why did the other games go ahead.

=========================================

    I don't think you're missing anything H, from political interference to PR fire-fighting, or even from internal fitba' politics. 

    My point was simply about going forward. Each and every "offender", is guilty of the same offence, namely, creating, or being involved in a situation of potential virus transmission. There are no "levels" of guilt. One either did, or didnae. Firing a gun into a crowd is no less serious just because one missed everybody. 

     Neither should there be a starting date for retrospective reprisal, other than the closing down of fitba'. 

      It's either nobody or everybody retrospectively acted upon, or its everybody equally faces punishments going forward under clear mandates. 

    I happen to think retrospective punishment on Celtic, (my club) harsh, because I genuinely do think they have done everything possible (and more), to progress the game safely.

    The fact is other clubs have had harshnesses exacted upon them due to the pandemic through no particular fault of their own also. 

     I will leave the politics to others, but the govt can shut the game down, and I recognise that. The governing bodies need to "appear", to be no-nonsense governors, the general public are aggrieved after much personal sensible sacrifices following govt recommendations. Appeasements must be made.

     I doubt there are any ballers now unaware of the seriousness of further breeches. All it takes is somebody to write down what's what, and circulate it. The player is personally responsible for his own behaviour outside work….Job done !… I said we should have sought to agree clear covid rules weeks ago.

    Retrospective punishments can only be applied fairly, (despite the fact it is unfair), if it is unfairly invoked since the onslaught of these unique circumstances in March. It must be all-inclusive.

    I support your Killie argument, but will extend it to Sevco v Aberdeen. Who can honestly say that the Aberdeen players who tested +ve never took the virus quite innocently to the pub/restaurant with them, and were potentially the source of the spike? 

    There is no doubt Celtic and Aberdeen had their games cancelled for reasons other than potential transmission transgressions……But I do get it…..It was a yellow card of public awareness, and a warning to the other offenders who escaped under the radar. 

    Mobile cameras are everywhere, as are rival fans with a grudge. If a ballers personal license/ authority to play is at stake, then more fool he for thinking a Groucho Marx nose would be a good disguise.

    Govt involvement is wrong, but it was also right…..and measured.   It is the governing bodies response to that govt "threat" that is unbalanced.      

      

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Cluster OnePosted on7:26 pm - Aug 17, 2020


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-53806944
………………….
He initially wanted £2m in damages but it is understood he is now claiming tens of millions of pounds.
………………
Just how much money will police scotland have cost the tax payer at the end of all this?

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Cluster OnePosted on7:31 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Highlander 17th August 2020 at 14:08

Cluster One 17th August 2020 at 13:48

“Aye but it wuznae wur club that overspent pyoor mullions, it wiz that wee shyte Whyte
………………
Big smile

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Cluster OnePosted on7:39 pm - Aug 17, 2020


easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 17:43 although I’d like to know what it was that has triggered this volte-face by the Crown.
……….
Mr Grier says that he was wrongly arrested during an investigation, led by Mr Robertson, into allegations of criminal behaviour during the sale of rangers in 2011.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lawyers-spend-200-hours-grilling-rangers-officer-b0h622vsn
Aug 12, 2020
…….
200 hours must have turned something up, or was it 200 hours spent trying to get a narattive right.
……………

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HomunculusPosted on7:40 pm - Aug 17, 2020


easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 18:06

Thanks for that, so they had them all as co-conspiritors. I suppose Whyte being acquitted wouldn't help the case against the rest. 

 

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Cluster OnePosted on8:29 pm - Aug 17, 2020


Homunculus 17th August 2020 at 17:54
………………….
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1295438706938204161/photo/1

Would not return to the UK as he said he would not get a fair trial.
He never spent any time in the cells, so whatever he gets in compensation i would expect Green and company to get a lot more after being dragged in front of the media and put in cells.

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John ClarkPosted on12:51 am - Aug 18, 2020


easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 18:06

'.you CRAIG THOMAS WHYTE, DAVID JOHN WHITEHOUSE, PAUL JOHN CLARK, CHARLES ALEXANDER GREEN and SHEIK IMRAN AHMAD, known as IMRAN AHMAD, .

"""""""""""""""""""""""

"Mr easyJambo, which iteration of the charges is this?Do I have a copy?"  

Oh, the memories!broken heart

 

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FinlochPosted on7:47 am - Aug 18, 2020


easyJambo 17th August 2020 at 17:37

Interesting appointment as CEO at Hearts as Ann Budge takes a step back, although she remains as chairman.

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/andrew-mckinlay-appointed-chief-executive

Andrew McKinlay former Director of Governance and Football Regulation at the SFA

………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Very interesting indeed.

He will know stuff. 

Maybe a poacher turned gamekeeper gambit?

 

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Mickey EdwardsPosted on10:03 am - Aug 18, 2020


To talk of fairness in the punishment of clubs for the actions of players is neither here nor there.

Football clubs were who appealed for dispensation from the SG to restart the sport and they did so by giving assurances that they would be able to put in place procedures that guaranteed that there was no risk. That was an assurance that was impossible to make as can be seen by the recent action of players but they made it anyway.

Having given those assurances then they have no defense of "Naw, it wis the players!". The clubs have made themselves responsible for the subsequent events, events that could cause lives.

As to "Whit aboot Killie", there seems to be a total lack of understanding of track and trace procedures here. Aberdeen players tested positive and therefore all the people that they came in contact with would have to isolate for 14 days hence no football. To my mind there should be no football for them even if they tested negative – as a punishment with a 0 – 3 loss for that game. The same for Celtic because of Bolingoli but there is a difference on this occasion. Bolingoli tested negative and so track and trace was unnecessary and so Killie were in the clear.

This season will be next to impossible to complete should everything run smoothly but we now have games to reschedule after only two weeks of the season starting. And these are the best climatic conditions to tackle COVID.

Instead of hammering your keyboards with complaints about how your team is being victimised why not reading up on track and trace, the after effects of COVID or, to give some insight into what could happen to football in mid winter, check out what is happening in the southern hemisphere where it is winter now. Whole States in Australia being blocked off or New Zealand who are now seeing a return of COVID after having succeeding in making their country COVID free.

If you want to complain about anything in football then complain that no action was taken against The Rangers when they put Dundee United players at risk. The other two games that people seem to be so exercised over were actually handled correctly. Rangers-Motherwell didn't start until the results came through and the Hibs game was cancelled because the lab didn't supply the results in time.

COVID is part of our lives now and actions will always appear unfair to people but perhaps it is time to accept it and be more selective in what we see as an injustice.

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HomunculusPosted on11:12 am - Aug 18, 2020


Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03

As to "Whit aboot Killie", there seems to be a total lack of understanding of track and trace procedures here. Aberdeen players tested positive and therefore all the people that they came in contact with would have to isolate for 14 days hence no football. To my mind there should be no football for them even if they tested negative – as a punishment with a 0 – 3 loss for that game. The same for Celtic because of Bolingoli but there is a difference on this occasion. Bolingoli tested negative and so track and trace was unnecessary and so Killie were in the clear.

======================================

It's not a "lack of understanding" it's exactly the point. If there was no reason to postpone the Kilmarnock game based on containing the virus what was the reason for postponing the Celtic game.

If it was a punishment it punished St Mirren every bit as much and they had done nothing wrong.

It just doesn't make any sense that I can see, I am happy to be educated though.

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StevieBCPosted on11:57 am - Aug 18, 2020


Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03

To talk of fairness in the punishment of clubs for the actions of players is neither here nor there…

‘=======’

Absolutely!

Scottish football agreed a deal / special dispensation with the SG.

Scottish football failed to honour the agreement.

And, like a broken record…

this sits at the door of Hampden, and is just further proof that Scottish football has woefully incompetent and inept leadership.

“Misunderstanding protocols” my @rse.

Mistakes made and nothing learned, as per.

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Mickey EdwardsPosted on12:17 pm - Aug 18, 2020


Homunculus@11:12

You are right that there is no sense but should we be expecting sense?

Still too little is known about COVID and that is one side of it but more importantly is the accuracy of the testing, in particular the ones with speedy results. St Mirren employees tested positive on the "quick" test but the majority of those were reversed on the more thorough tests.

In my own family my grandson and the rest of his platoon in the US were tested after one member showed symptoms, found negative and returned to duties. 3-4 days later my grandson started showing symptoms, was retested and proved positive as did others. Fortunately he appears to have none of the long term after effects and is recovering well.

The government, in particular Westminster, are spouting forth about the benefits of testing and tracing neither of which are performing to an effective level. Politicians will always tell you how well they are performing and underplay the problems. Little by little the full effects of COVID are coming out but never through the briefings or press reports.

Those are the conditions under which football are guaranteeing a return is safe. To me this is an impossible guarantee to fulfill.

The Killie game against Celtic was not postponed because Bolingoli's trip was still not known about and his testing happened after the game was played. It proved negative and so no track and trace was necessary leaving them to play their next game.

As far as I'm concerned Celtic's game was rightly stopped but for the reason that every team must find a way to be able to stick to what they guaranteed so basically it was a punishment.

If football is to be completed this season then I do not believe postponements under these circumstances are the way forward. There will be many as we go into the winter season and that's not counting weather postponements. The only way to give any chance of completion is to award the points to the non-"offending" team or no points if both have been responsible.

Screams of "that's no fair" will no doubt follow but as we saw last season an unfinished season isn't fair either.

What we need to concern ourselves with is tackling where the authorities do not treat every offending team the same.

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Cluster OnePosted on3:58 pm - Aug 18, 2020


Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 12:17
What we need to concern ourselves with is tackling where the authorities do not treat every offending team the same.
……………….
That is all anyone is asking. They are also asking and wondering why every offending team is not being treated the same.Something that the SMSM should be at the forefront of, but you will wait a life time for that.

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HomunculusPosted on8:11 pm - Aug 18, 2020


Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 12:17

As far as I'm concerned Celtic's game was rightly stopped but for the reason that every team must find a way to be able to stick to what they guaranteed so basically it was a punishment.

———————————————-

Equally St Mirren's game was stopped.

Which goes right back to the point, why are St Mirren being punished.

The system makes no sense. 

With regards "Screams of "that's no fair" …" is there a facility within the system to award the points in the way you suggest. Clearly points can be removed, for example in an insolvency event. However is there any facility within the system for St Mirren being awarded the points in that game. 

We talk about the authorities "making up the rules as they go along", would this just be another example of them doing that. 

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John ClarkPosted on11:49 pm - Aug 18, 2020


Homunculus 18th August 2020 at 20:11

‘..We talk about the authorities “making up the rules as they go along”, would this just be another example of them doing that. ‘

“””””””””””””””””””””””””

I am coming late to proceedings tonight.

I am so computer/tech illiterate that when I forgot my SFM password, and hunted for it in bits of paper here and there, and then did the ‘forget password’ carry on, it took me on a feckin journey that lasted more than an hour.

Word Press emails to my John Clark(e) address, text messages with code numbers or last two numbers of my mobile.

And I always got it feckin wrong. A message comes up: enter password below. 

So I enter what I decide will be my new password, on the basis that what’s already in the box is an example!

FFS! It’s not an ‘example’: it’s what they are asking I should enter!broken heart

I finally twigged that.  

And I am so enraged at the guys in computer world who haven’t the feckin language communications skills to realise that there are at least two generations who speak a different language. 

But that’s just me, maybe: In the words of T S Eliot ” I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear my trousers rolled”

But to the point. 

Was there ever a more astonishing decision made by the members an association of business enterprises, at a time of huge crisis, that they should not authorise some executive authority of their choice to consider the dire consequences of a pandemic and come up with some agreed plans as to how any of all the possible effects should be dealt with? All the ‘what if ‘ scenarios?

There should not be any kind of ‘making rules up as they go along’.
Every single possibility should have been considered, ranging from complete abandonment of the season all the way down to determining how games that were affected by covid , or by the wilful actions of individuals , were to be assessed  and so on.

Scottish Football made a pig’s ear of itself in its failure to deal with the cheating and the effects of that cheating by RFC of 1872.

It has made a bigger ars. of things by its inadequacies in squaring up to the virus and its ramifications.

Feckin eejits, them in  ‘governance’, as well as being ,essentially, liars ‘governing’ an already corrupted sport.

And, really, who could be arsed with any of them?

 

 

 

 

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Big PinkPosted on8:23 am - Aug 19, 2020


John Clark
In the case of the folk who run out clubs, the difference between 2012 and now is that in 2012 they had the authority and expertise to deal with the systemic cheating by Rangers-of-old but choose not to. In the current situation they simply have no skills at all to respond.
Of course one could argue that they lack the skills to manage a sport in either case.
In the case of the MSM, they are no more qualified than you or I to proselytise on either situation, and in most cases no more qualified than you or I to talk about even about the game on the field – a qualification that one assumes should be a prerequisite for employment in that area of endeavour.

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borussiabeefburgPosted on9:23 am - Aug 19, 2020


Compounding the Covid19/Scottish football conundrums, it appears Craig Napier, who made his Premiership debut at Dingwall last Saturday, was also the lead official at Murray Park when a "Rangers XI” took on Dundee United in a pre-season match in late July.

 

It’s now common knowledge that at least 9 Ibrox players hadn’t received Covid clearance, but also unusual in that match’s circumstances was Napier officiated without assistants, as they were refused entry to Murray Park, having been tested at Motherwell’s Fir Park earlier in the week. The results weren’t back from the laboratory.

 

The failure of TRFC to follow procedures was put down to a ‘misunderstanding’ in the media, but that excuse appears hollow given the conditions which prevented the assistant referees participating. Did the SFA release an official statement absolving the club of blame, as I can’t appear to locate one?

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wottpiPosted on11:03 am - Aug 19, 2020


borussiabeefburg 19th August 2020 at 09:23

It indeed seems to be a mystery. However T’Rangers may not be the only guilty party. If T’Rangers were unable to prove their players were Covid free then are Dundee Utd not just as guilty for going ahead and playing the friendly game?

Either Dundee Utd were lied to that everything was A-OK or the visiting club went ahead and played, fully in the knowledge that no testing results were being produced by the home side.

For what its worth,  the way I see it was the friendlies were a bedding in system. In football terms, like the first 5-10 minutes the game has been allowed to flow and the officials have not been too heavy handed. The cancelling of the Aberdeen and Celtic games was ‘political’ but was indeed a yellow card from the officials as it was feared things were quickly getting out of hand. The next infraction will be a straight red.

Within the rules the SPFL board have it within their powers to cancel and reschedule games as they see fit. I have no doubt political pressure was put on them to postpone matches.

The issue is that, apart from postponement,  they have no other agreed rules and associated ‘punishments’ on how to deal with infractions of the Covid Guidance and the agreed protocols.

Personally I think punishing players and clubs for someone testing positive is harsh being the virus could be caught through potentially irresponsible behaviour (such as going out on the town in large groups) or simply by a unsuspecting family member bringing the virus into a player’s home.

To me the best parallel is the current rules on gambling. Society can gamble but football officials, coaches and players can’t as it potentially brings the game into disrepute. Essentially they are expected to be held to a higher standard than the rest of society.

Failure to confirm to the general Covid guidelines and the football protocols should be seen in a similar fashion. 

If a person or persons involved in professional football is alleged to have breached the guidelines/protocol then (as long as they are Covid free) they play on until such time they are brought before the beak, the case is heard and, if found guilty,  punishment handed out if necessary. This would normally be a ban for ‘x’ number of games.

If the club then also wishes to fine/discipline/re-educate a person internally then that is up to them.

All that being said I can see why the Scot Gov may have wanted to place down an early marker to put across a serious public health message. 

I am sure as this ‘new normal’ continues then other major events in the public eye, such as concerts and the like,  will receive similar treatment as this issue goes well beyond football.

While it would be good to have answers to everything, people and organisations are still finding their feet as this pandemic progresses. Therefore,  more of a cock-up and/or lack of knowledge and planning as opposed to conspiracy.

However, the problem with the football authorities, once again, is a lack of openness and transparency as to how they are dealing with matters that are clearly within the public domain.

 

 

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bect67Posted on11:52 am - Aug 19, 2020


borussiabeefburg

Good points, but there really is no mystery – Sevco and Sevconians require no absolution from their ‘sins’.

It is generally acknowledged on this site that both incarnations of the outfit fae Govan were/are treated differently (i.e more favourably) from others (Divine Right of WATP?) – to put it mildly, but I would dearly love SPFL/SFA to ‘try it on’ with points deductions (oh – unless it included SEVCO for their flaunting of the rules!). ‘Fairs fair’ after all – isn’t it!?

We would then, I believe, see a backlash from RC’s  pal Peter. Injustice, inconsistency preferential treatment are screaming at us, and it wouldn’t take a Philadelphia Lawyer to ‘sort them out’.

Doncaster et al know this, and I believe the football authorities are trying (in vain) to show how tough they can be, in a futile attempts to impress wee Nicola and/or save face regarding their shambolic handling of the whole ‘breaking the rules’ Covid scenario.

Just a final question for/dig at Sevco 34 game legend ‘what’s the score’ Alex Rae …

When was the last time Celtic scored at Rugby Park? and Who do you think might have scored it?

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macfurglyPosted on2:17 pm - Aug 20, 2020


Mickey Edwards 18th August 2020 at 10:03

wottpi 19th August 2020 at 11:03

————-

The agreement with the SG that football could only resume under conditions of special dispensation was a hostage to fortune from the off. I trust the suggestion that NS could or would cancel the season or otherwise stop matches being played until further notice is wide of the mark, although I have my doubts.

The SPFL need to have clear, agreed rules, and pronto.

I initially thought that postponing the Aberdeen games against St. J. and Hamilton was unfair, because the other teams were being disadvantaged, but I have now changed my view. As wottpi points out above, testing positive is in itself not an offence. As Mickey Edwards says, the Aberdeen players had to self isolate because they had been in contact with a positive person. That is not the fault of the club or the players, no offence has been committed. Postponing the games was correct I think.

The Aberdeen 8 themselves however breached COVID regulations with their night out. I again agree with wottpi above that he punishment for this should be an x game suspension.  I would also expect them to be fined by the club for breaching the special dispensation, however flawed that may be, as it shows the club accepting a share of the responsibility, and I suspect the players themselves could be found to be in breach of contract by effectively breaking conditions of employment.

More serious I think are the cases of the TRFC 9 and Bolingoli. In both instances players took the field when it was not known if they were positive. They risked the health of everyone associated with the match.  They were ineligible to play. TRFC should not have let them play, they knew the results had not been confirmed. CFC should have known about Bolingoli; they have a duty to ensure that no-one takes the field who has not tested negative. If he concealed his trip, then the club have to accept responsibility nonetheless, and he is out the door. All the players should face suspensions and fines.CFC should have had 0 points for the match, and 3 deducted, and TRFC should have started the season on -3 points, in both cases for fielding ineligible players. I think it would be harsh, albeit amusing, to deduct 27 points from TRFC.

Hopefully no player will take the field and subsequently be found to be positive. There needs to be a rule for it though.

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macfurglyPosted on2:34 pm - Aug 20, 2020


John Clark 18th August 2020 at 23:49 

But that’s just me, maybe: In the words of T S Eliot ” I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear my trousers rolled”

Feckin eejits, them in  ‘governance’, as well as being ,essentially, liars ‘governing’ an already corrupted sport.

And, really, who could be arsed with any of them?

———-

The Hollow Men by T.S. Eliot

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when 
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour, 
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

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bect67Posted on2:40 pm - Aug 20, 2020


and empty vessels (make the most noise).

Its the (hot)  air inside ye ken

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weejoePosted on3:07 pm - Aug 20, 2020


Macfurgly

It's my understanding that Boli Bolingoli, along with all the other Celtic players, had been tested twice prior to the Killie game and all tests were negative. If so why should Celtic and St. Mirren be punished with a match postponement?

Could it be that one positive test by a St. Mirren player was the reason that this match was postponed? 

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macfurglyPosted on3:24 pm - Aug 20, 2020


weejoe 20th August 2020 at 15:07

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If Bolingoli was known to be negative then no points deduction but a suspension for him for his trip to Spain.

Re the St, Mirren player, they would then be in the position Aberdeen were in, isolate for 2 weeks and matches are postponed for that time.

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roddybhoyPosted on5:01 pm - Aug 20, 2020


Just about everybody has a just point in their arguments to whether a club and/or players should / should not recieve a certain punishment. For me it always comes back to the fact  once again that the SFA are not  fit for purpose . How many more chances are these bufoons gonna get until clubs take action and give them a vote of no confidence and chase them out our game forever . They are  a cancer in our game . Until we stop paying thier huge salaries for being brilliant at imcompitence  our game will never move forward . SURELY the owners/ chairmen of all clubs must recognise this . Or do they think eventually they might get things right in the end , if so they will have a loooooooooooooong wait. They need chased ASAP

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fishnishPosted on5:27 pm - Aug 20, 2020


“Could it be that one positive test by a St. Mirren player was the reason that this match was postponed? “
 

it was one of Saints’ coaching staff. Not a player.

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