A Guest Blog for TSFM by Auldheid
It has been some six months since we drew readers’ attention to documents that should have been provided by Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps in March 2012 to Harper MacLeod who acted on behalf of the then Scottish Premier League to investigate the use of side letters and employee benefit trust payments made by Rangers from the inception of the SPL in July 1998. You can read the previous blogs/correspondence for background at
- http://sfm.scot/scottish-football-an-honest-game-honestly-governed
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/https://sfmarchive.privateland.net/it-takes-two-to-tangle/
In the latest letter below sent to Harper MacLeod and SPL Board members on 5th September 2014, you will find the story of what happened when the LNS Decision was delivered to the SPL Board and how the withholding of those same documents not only meant The Commission was misled from the outset in its terms of reference, but how the SPL Board were also incorrectly advised as a consequence of the same concealment.
It is a matter of some regret that secrecy, concealment and non-accountability continues to be the order of the day, not only in Scottish football but in the media coverage of this particular part of its history, but if this series of blogs does nothing else it will bring out the truth not only about the use of ebts but the deceitful attempts thereafter to try and minimise the damage caused. The Inaction will also stand as an indictment against all those responsible in the game and the media who cover it.
Letter to Harper MacLeod
Dear Mr McKenzie
We write further to our letters of 19th February, 29 March and reminder letter of 18th May 2014 to ask if the SPFL are now , after studiously ignoring for 6 months the correspondence and evidence provided, going to reconsider their position in respect of the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission and Decision of 28 February 2013?
In the detail of our letter of 29 March we suggested that It may be prudent to wait for the results of HMRC’s appeal to the UTT concerning the regularity or otherwise of ebt payments made under the MGMRT arrangement before embarking on any premature decision on the integrity of the LNS Commission Decision with regard to the true nature of the REBT payments being concealed from it.
The UTT have ruled and we know that payments under the MGMRT ebt arrangement are, for the time being and until the Court of Sessions re-examine the case at some future date , “lawful” or “not irregular” in tax terms.
However convenient as that may be to put off addressing the wider issue of the true nature of the MGRT ebts used by Rangers, it is no reason in terms of the LNS Commission, not to examine the effect of the concealment from yourselves as commissioners and the SPL of ebt payments made from 2000 to 2002/03 under the REBT arrangements to Tor Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer which were already ruled irregular by a separate FTT investigating the use of the same Discounted Option Scheme by Aberdeen Asset Management.
We remind you that in the earlier undated letter sent on 19th February we provided irrefutable evidence that
- Yourself, acting as the investigating agent for the SPL, was not provided with all the documentation you requested on 5th March 2012
- That documentation clearly demonstrated that in the case of two players named on the Commission list (Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo) payments were made via an irregular ebt mechanism that subsequently rendered them subject to tax which HMRC has been trying unsuccessfully to collect since May 2011, a year before the commissioning process commenced.
- That in both cases side letters concealed from both football and tax authorities were a feature, whilst later relevant documentation revealing their true irregular nature was not provided as directed by yourselves to the Commission itself.
It is now our firm contention that
- The findings of Lord Nimmo Smith from paras 104 to 106 of his Decision that no sporting advantage accrued must be set aside where now known irregular payments have occurred. Using Lord Nimmo Smith’s argument sporting advantage had to accrue from season 1999/2000 to 2002/03 and the SPFL need to address that truth and consequences for our game to move on.
- Whilst it is unclear which SPL/SFA rules would have been breached by making irregular payments, it was not the rules the Commission was directed to examine as, according to the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision para 88 “ There may be extreme cases in which there is such a fundamental defect that the registration of a player must be treated as having been invalid from the outset “
- Payment by irregular means clearly constitute such a fundamental defect and so an extreme case. These payments should not have been conflated with other payments which are for the time being not irregular and to allow an investigation to stand that wrongly treated them under the same rules as the Commission did for regular payments would be a clear miscarriage of justice caused itself by apparent deception of the Commission by those whose very behaviour it was commissioned to investigate! (If we were using lay man terms we could say that the SP(F)L clubs and their supporters were and are being treated like mugs by those governing our game.)
On the matter of that apparent deception we can even go further on its impact. It is a fact that the SPL never made any public announcement as a Board of acceptance of the Lord Nimmo Smith decision. There was one individual statement but no official SPL Board announcement.
We understand that the matter of making an appeal was raised by the SPL Board on 28 Feb 2013 during a telephone conference meeting, not a face to face one, to discuss the most serious issue ever facing Scottish football and that a decision was delayed for 7 days by which time the date for lodging an appeal was about to end.
During the discussions by e mail some Board members expressed dissatisfaction at the token nature of the punishment for what Rangers had been found guilty of (basically misregistration of players) but also concerns about how no sporting advantage had been obtained through the use of ebts with side letters.
The Board were persuaded by your good self that Rangers had a sound argument that no sporting advantage had accrued. The Board were told that Rangers in effect had said that if the EBT details were required to be disclosed, the reason they did not disclose them was because of an error by Rangers in understanding what was required to be disclosed and that in any event they had secured no competitive advantage from not disclosing since the tax position would have been the same whether they disclosed to the SPL/SFA or not.
Given our opening points we suggest that during the investigation had you had in your possession the withheld evidence we supplied in our letter of 19 February 2014 (and notwithstanding the point re different terms of reference resulting) you would have been able to demonstrate the flaw in this argument to the SPL Board when they were asking your advice on the legal position in early March 2013.
It is difficult to accept that there was an error in understanding that side letters should not be disclosed as part of player registration when our supplied evidence shows that in 2005 Rangers deliberately concealed the existence of side letter for De Boer and Flo from HMRC.
Far from suggesting an error in understanding, this suggests that Rangers understood that to reveal the existence of such letters would remove the tax advantage that ebts gave them and that this advantage depended upon side letters being kept secret from authority and that includes football authority, lest informing them alerted HMRC to their existence. The QC advice contained in the withheld documents is that this deliberate concealment in 2005 demonstrated Rangers true intention of putting cash in the hands of player as part of their remuneration package.
It is also clear that revelation of these particular side letters and their circumstances would indeed have changed the tax position since HMRC have billed Rangers for the tax due on the payments to De Boer and Flo.
HMRC have not done so for Moore because the absence of a side letter puts the tax due on that transaction outside the extended time limit rules that allowed them to pursue payment for Flo and De Boer, but regardless of this and regardless of whether it was notified to the SFA, Moore was paid by an irregular means not available to other clubs..
The questions for yourself Mr McKenzie is had you been in possession then of the information supplied by TSFM would you at the time of investigation been in a better position to either refute the case Rangers made in their defence or to advise the SPL Board that the evidence of deliberate concealment from HMRC in 2005 of what transpired to be irregular payments, gave the SPL Board reason for entering an appeal?
Did the very absence of that material, which was not your fault, prevent you from briefing the SPL Board in a way that you might have done had you had all the evidence to hand?
We think the original evidence supplied and the questions raised now as a result of more fully appreciating what was hidden from the then SPL Board (and so SPL clubs) in March 2013 requires that the SPFL conduct a new cleansing investigation into :
- The apparent deception by Duff and Phelps of the SPL led Commission ,
- Why the SFA President, Campbell Ogilvie, did not advise or correct Lord Nimmo Smith or The SPL and
- The implications of the use of now revealed irregular payments by Rangers FC during seasons 1999/2000 to 2002/03.
This letter has been sent by e mail to the current SPL Board members and also by mail or e mail to the then Board Members who, whilst no longer in position might have their own views on what needs to be done on this issue to restore integrity to the very processes Scottish football relies on to ensure fair play.
Millennium Stadium – No
Hampden – Yes
I’ll have some of what UEFA are smoking.
Hadn’t realised the 2020 format had been decided and just needed venues. Seems blumin’ tough on the welsh, have to say.
Finloch says:
September 19, 2014 at 11:25 am
7 16 Rate This
I bet the people at UEFA are glad at the result.
What would they have done with Berwick Rangers?
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FC Vaduz of Liechtenstein currently play in the Swiss top division. They have played in Swiss football since 1933.
Bizarrely they have also qualified for Europe on an annual basis since 1993 by winning the Liechtenstein Cup!
I see the knuckledraggers have turned up in George Square. Inevitable or not?
Hope the polis stamp this out pronto.
ianagain says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm
4 0 Rate This
I see the knuckledraggers have turned up in George Square. Inevitable or not?
Hope the polis stamp this out pronto.
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Celebrating that Scotland is not a country in its own right? Or some kind of new boycott?
Danish Pastry says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:37 pm
0 0 Rate This
ianagain says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:14 pm
4 0 Rate This
I see the knuckledraggers have turned up in George Square. Inevitable or not?
Hope the polis stamp this out pronto.
———–
Celebrating that Scotland is not a country in its own right? Or some kind of new boycott?
=============
Supporters of one side launching an attack on the other apparently.
A fair degree of drunkeness involved as well I’d think.
Organised attack by “loyalists” according to BBC from 2 sides of the square at once. And yes much drink involved.
ianagain says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:44 pm
2 0 Rate This
Organised attack by “loyalists” according to BBC from 2 sides of the square at once. And yes much drink involved.
———-
Charming. They feel better together
2 hrs ago from a ‘well fan who works there.
https://vine.co/v/OWFlvihxJja
ianagain says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:44 pm
10 0 Rate This
Organised attack by “loyalists” according to BBC from 2 sides of the square at once. And yes much drink involved.
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If this is football related it’s been long established on here that no club has a monopoly on “knuckle draggers”
If it’s not then it’s well ot….
Sometimes looking on from the outside,you can see things in a different way. Kevin Bridges@kevinbridges86 · 1h
Brad Pitt filming another movie in George Square
parttimearab says:
September 19, 2014 at 9:13 pm
6 1 Rate This
ianagain says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:44 pm
10 0 Rate This
Organised attack by “loyalists” according to BBC from 2 sides of the square at once. And yes much drink involved.
============================================
If this is football related it’s been long established on here that no club has a monopoly on “knuckle draggers”
If it’s not then it’s well ot….
=================
Its not football related right enough.
Although there are a few people in football strips engaged in the stand off (going by the 2 videos I’ve seen).
Doesn’t seem to be much on topic to discuss today, a slow news day at TSFM.
No sign of any bad news buried today as far as I have spotted so far..
Matty Roth says:
September 19, 2014 at 10:25 pm
Not strictly football related, although
The songbook is awfully familiar
& The police are reporting that there are a lot of known “OF” faces there
Seems they aren’t single issue thugs.
As you say, slow news day football wise, no announcements
Good morning,
Perhaps after Thursday’s vote this forum should consider a change of name.
My proposal is: The North-British Football Monitor. :irony:
From today’s ‘Herald’:
Johnston urges Ibrox board to sell up and go
Gary Keown
Saturday 20 September 2014
ALASTAIR JOHNSTON, the former chairman of Rangers, last night called for the current powerbase to sell their stock and give up their stranglehold on Ibrox before the club goes back into complete meltdown, writes Gary Keown.
Johnston insists prominent shareholders, both individuals and institutions, must open themselves up to taking a financial hit and allowing the likes of Dave King, the South Africa-based tycoon and former director, to gain the influence he desires.
“An issue that has astonished me in recent years is the number of people employed or retained by Rangers Football Club who have made a lot of money and been paid a lot to leave,” Johnston said.
“That wastage was a function of internal deals and relationships that were consummated among those who have been involved in the swing door of power and influence at Ibrox.
“There are directors on the board who are basically representing the primary shareholders. These shareholders are not going to accept a situation where a Dave King, or anyone else, comes in and acquires influence or control without being paid off. If Dave King is for real, or if there is someone else, they shouldtake a write-off, downsize their investments and maybe take stock options in the future with the understanding they will stand down now and let someone out there put
money in.
“It has just been a horrible, horrible experience for the fans. I think they have been let down, I think they have been lied to,
I think they have been cheated.
“Statements have been made to fans that have proved to be untrue or deceitful, so you can see situations where the only way to clean it up might be administration again.
I can see why the fans are concerned about that.
“It is absolutely incomprehensible that the directors knew the naming rights for Ibrox Stadium had been given away for £1
two years ago and didn’t tell the Rangers fans.
“Time is not on Rangers’ side and those who have some ability to get it done should at least understand they have to make some concessions.
“Take a write-off. Take a loss.
Get out.”
My immediately previous post: forgot to add my comment: what is it with the mind-set of people connected with old dead rangers and new TRFC that they are begging for convicted criminals to be their leaders?
It’s as baffling to me as the Vichy-like pusillanimity so many Scots seem to to have.
John Clark says:
September 20, 2014 at 10:39 am
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I have for most of my life tried to avoid telling anyone how they should act in matters which are of vital importance to them and in which they might be able to play a key role.
That has never stopped me offering advice, pointing out pitfalls and past mistakes.
Obviously as a Celtic supporter I try even harder to try and filter-out the personal passions I feel for my club in relations to issues which might affect Rangers.
So I have ended-up with the position that IMO it’s up to ordinary Rangers fans to decide and create the type of club they want. It won’t be easy and it won’t be overnight and it might include Dave King.
But it’s their decision and they will need to live with the consequences. If they get it wrong then it might become impossible to resurrect the club in any meaningful form.
As to your comment which appears to equate a majority of Scots with the French Vichy Government that is quite simply not worthy of this blog IMO.
I often have a quiet smile about keyboard warriors who have never ever been in the position of having to survive under tyrany and live in fear of their life and that of their family and friends every second of the day with no hope of escape.
And I often wonder how they would have actually behaved if they ended-up living in such a nightmare situation where a single lapse could lead to torture and summary execution.
As to the majority of Scots you describe as behaving with ‘Vichy-like pusillanimity’ I assume that doesn’t apply to all those Scots, English, Welsh, Irish, American, Russian and citizens of virtually every Commonwealth country, as well as many other nations, who gave their all to sweep aside Vichy and its Masters.
Both my parents served in the Armed Forces during WWII. Both were proud Scots with a 100% Irish background through their own parents and grandparents.
They fought for two things which was to save Britain from invasion and also to free the other nations enslaved by tyrants and dictators during WWII and I am rightly proud of them and their commitment to Freedom which has allowed Democracy to flourish in our land and many others to this day.
Insulting voters is not only wrong, but very bad strategy.
With respect to last night I have come to the conclusion that it was football related, and a matter for the footballing authorities:
When a fan group organises public disorder for whatever purpose, then it is incumbent upon the Football Club to take appropriate action against both the group, and any individual fans convicted of criminal acts.
Failure to do so, should result in the club being charged with bringing the game in disrepute
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 12:16 pm
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I genuinely can’t see the locus for Rangers or the footballing authorities to act wrt George Square.
I imagine a large percentage of what was a very small demonstration are probably supporters of one club but whether they are even ST holders is unknown.
It’s also difficult to determine the balance between Loyalists and Unionists in the crowd.
However the matter IMO isn’t one for the Football Authorities unless there was any direction from Rangers FC and there wouldn’t be.
What happened was in a public place outwith the control or responsibility of Rangers FC and it was of a political nature rather than football related IMO and therefore up to the police and – possibly – the courts to deal with.
It may be that any convictions may then become a matter of interest and action from Rangers and the footballing authorities.
ecobhoy says:
September 20, 2014 at 12:40 pm
I was making a general case, but on the specifics the vanguardbears were organising this all day on social media
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 12:42 pm
ecobhoy says:
September 20, 2014 at 12:40 pm
I was making a general case, but on the specifics the vanguardbears were organising this all day on social media
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If that’s the best they can turn-out after a day’s organisation then they are even smaller in influence than I had ever previously thought.
ecobhoy says:
September 20, 2014 at 12:40 pm
very true, and we should keep this in proportion. I’m suggesting one way to help to nip it in the bud
I happened to be in the city last night just east of the square ,we normaly walk to the square for the bus home,as we approached to about 150yards it was clear there was a full scale riot going on,we then walked north towards Cathedral St and as we found when we got there all buses normaly through the square had been diverted,I imagine our press will be reporting the massive amount of arrests that the police will have made and appearing in court on Monday,we have a right to know who these thugs are.There where a lot of arrests,wasnt there!!!
Bloody hell, Real Madrid announce gross debts of 602 million Euros, after wining the Champions League. When the football bubble bursts, its really going to hurt!
http://futbol.as.com/futbol/2014/09/20/primera/1411165129_521640.html
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 3:11 pm
Bloody hell, Real Madrid announce gross debts of 602 million Euros, after wining the Champions League. When the football bubble bursts, its really going to hurt!
=================================
If there is a Spanish Football Monitor I imagine its time will be taken up mostly by the relationship between Real Madrid, the Spanish Banks, and the Spanish Authorities. Where is UEFA’s FFP in this case, or is that not for the likes of Real Madrid?
If there is a Spanish Football Monitor I imagine its time will be taken up mostly by the relationship between Real Madrid, the Spanish Banks, and the Spanish Authorities. Where is UEFA’s FFP in this case, or is that not for the likes of Real Madrid?
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I think you will find that Real Madrid are the establishment club. So don’t hold your breath while you wait for effective action from the authorities.
neepheid says:
September 20, 2014 at 3:47 pm
I think you will find that Real Madrid are the establishment club. So don’t hold your breath while you wait for effective action from the authorities.
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Oh I’m well aware of that. It’s no shock, based on the fact the establishment club here does not suffer from effective action from the authorities.
Just for the sake of badness.Re Real Madrid.
What does The Catalan Football Monitor have to say on the subject?(Or should that be The North-West Spanish Football Monitor?)
upthehoops says:
September 20, 2014 at 4:02 pm
I had great hopes for FFP, but its turning out to be a bit of a joke
The desire among football authorities to strip away anything resembling political protest from the arenas in which the game is played is relatively new and not particularly healthy.
Endorsement of racial equality “show racism the red card” however is rightly and to a large extent supported.
Modern football does not want to be political, it would rather politics simply went away and played somewhere else. Politics limits wealth generation by exposing division and limiting the market available.
The bland necessity to reduce large crowds of human beings who might have otherwise expressed themselves and their views energetically to a mere targeted and compliant group of consumers is something to be lamented.
Sport has a powerful role to play in politics because the excitement and human drama that it offers draws people in, in a way that dry debate often fails to do. It can be and often is motivational and instructive.
Great strides have been made in the public perception and understanding of people with disabilities, largely as a result of sporting endeavours played out before a self styled able bodied audience.
If watching people previously perceived as disadvantaged and largely marginalised by society become sporting giants who cast away of all our prior prejudice isn’t political I’m not sure what is.
Perhaps the simple minded misplaced pity that so many people felt justified and secure in thinking about those seemingly less fortunate than themselves might have found another corrective. I’m not aware of any suitable candidates.
As it happens the only thing that was required to change the public perception of disability was successive wonderful displays of ability.
If politics and sport are to be kept apart, in the curious world of Scottish football it’s probably useful to dismiss anything I have said previously.
Actually that’s not entirely true.
I’m originally from Glasgow, a town in which football and politics might well form the base model for separating the two.
Except I’m not convinced.
Without wishing to get bogged down in ideas of what politics actually is in today’s complex and perplexing world, a simple idea comes to mind.
The single most defiant political act anyone can commit to is to feed those who are unable to feed themselves.
This is how Celtic Fc began and it’s something that the support to this day takes pride in.
At some point along the way, presumably when the crowds grew and the money was rolling in, the early energy for a humanitarian cause was somewhat diluted by the realisation that money could not only be made but secured in a few hands. Celtic became a business.
Celtic fans celebrate their clubs charitable birth and rightly so. Born in an era when the borders of their community shaped the prospects of some and blighted that of so many others.
Celtic is a club whose existence is for some a political statement in its self.
In a fast moving world it’s an idea that has its natural home in the past, but it’s an idea that lingers.
If the politics of poverty in Glasgow had produced a singular unifying narrative we could perhaps happily enjoy the historic exploits of a Glasgow United Football team.
As it happens (And I realise I’ve lost the will to read of most supporters of football teams up and down the country) politics intervened.
There is a corrosive idea that poor people today are no more than lazy benefit junkies (other adjectives are applied).
It’s hard to imagine that anything dissimilar applied in years gone by.
When Rangers FC emerged as a football team worthy of the support of the vast ranks of shipbuilders and labourers competing for employment on the banks of the Clyde. The football clubs ethos was inescapably tied to the aspirations of working men, whose greatest fear was losing their jobs to a cheaper more desperate workforce.
In Glasgow we still see the ramifications of this today, its part of our political DNA. We might wish to make it as invisible as disability once was. Essentially ignore it and deny its existence but that would achieve nothing.
Last night in Glasgow we saw something reminiscent of a tired, seemingly forgotten brand of politics. As I write this there were only a few arrests (I hope no one was hurt).
It is not possible to ignore the football aspect of this. In abstract terms the Referendum result provided some Rangers fans with belief that a victory had been achieved over a phantom enemy.
As it happens Glasgow voted ‘yes ‘and there were no enemies, but that didn’t stop the outpouring of anger which to many people myself included looked at best a little bit odd if not aggressively provocative.
An old politics coming to the boil in the minds of a few and finding only one outlet.
Our experience of sport is political; it’s tied to it in ways which we can’t escape.
sometimes it’s an emotional inheritance or a brand we have bought into. In the end it’s the same result.
We start out with fixed opinions, and then we look to reinforce them.
The challenge is to make ourselves less secure.
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 4:59 pm
…
I had great hopes for FFP, but its turning out to be a bit of a joke
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I understand FFP is a UEFA initiative, but here is a link to an amusing / depressing article about FIFA and ethics / fairplay etc.
And the killer is: check Blatter’s body language in the article’s photo – where he is holding up the FIFA “My Game is Fair Play” booklet.
A rather obvious ‘tell’ ?
==================================================================
“…It is a wonder, indeed, that anyone serious about change in football governance even dignified Fifa’s first ‘ethics summit’ with their presence…”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/11109065/Fifa-is-a-swamp-of-greed-Sepp-Blatter-claims-to-be-taking-lead-on-ethics-but-deserves-nothing-but-strongest-ridicule.html
Is it an idea to have a TSFM Referendum thread?
IMO, We DON`T need politicians to TELL us to `re-unite` via MSM guided outlets
Self-serving arrogance should be flushed down the wc
We`ll ALL come together in Scots Football, our own way
Certainly our Grandkids will
mtp
The Sunday Herald of 14 September 2014 broke free from the shackles of project fear and openly backed the Yes campaign. This, I suspect, will have won them new/returning readership disillusioned by the contents of their sports pages over the last 2 years. At the same time I suspect a large number of supporters of the Ibrox club will have vowed never to buy such a “separatist” newspaper again. Surely it would make economic sense for the Sunday Herald (in terms of keeping new/returned readers on board), not to mention serving the interests of integrity and truth and the future well-being of the game, to now make a conscious decision to stop pandering to the blue pound.
StevieBC says:
September 20, 2014 at 8:07 pm
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A cynic might suggest that if naughty folks were using soccerball as a means to launder money, they’d be none too pleased with anyone turning off their spin dryers. Sepp Hoffa isn’t a chump.
Martin says:
September 20, 2014 at 8:05 pm
No problem with political protest, at football matches or anywhere else. As long as it is peaceful. When the protest connects with someone else’s nose, then its no longer protest, but assault.
Broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:01 pm
________________________________________
I just want to say again I love your name (Where Eagles Dare) but my husband hates you because you took it before he did. 😆
Nothing more to add, as you were.
jean7brodie says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:18 pm
If you changed your moniker to Mary Ellison, he’d really have something to worry about
I’ll get ma coat
(The actress Mary Ure, was a fine Glasgow lass )
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:10 pm
1 0 Rate This
I am advocating that sport at its best can connect with peoples brains in a positive way.I don’t discount that a bad idea might find a similarly easy passage. I would hope that either way a troublesome passage through the nose is avoided. 😀
jean7brodie says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:18 pm
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Semper Fi
Hi De Hi
Martin says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:33 pm
🙂
theoldshed says:
September 20, 2014 at 8:52 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would be interesting to see the numbers of Ibrox fans who voted ‘YES’.
I personally know several who definitely did.
There were of course many Celtic fans that voted ‘No’.
Personally, I will be buying the Sunday Herald and the Sunday Herald alone, from now on. It will be the first paper I’ve bought in about 3 or 4 years.
Lord Wobbly says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:41 pm
there was even an orangemenforyes group, which had, and still has me scratching my head a bit.
It’ll be awhile before all the consequences of the vote become clear, but, everyone can be happy about the turnout
September 20, 2014 at 3:11 pm
18 0 Rate This
Bloody hell, Real Madrid announce gross debts of 602 million Euros, after wining the Champions League. When the football bubble bursts, its really going to hurt!
==========================
Looks like there is a job waiting for Peter Lawell!
Indeed. The 16/17 year olds that engaged (regardless of which way they voted) definitely fully vindicated Alex Salmond’s decision to include them.
Anyway, apologies to TSFM’ers for the political interlude. Back to the fitba’.
Gordon [& Co] enjoying moment[t] in the sunshine
Then [to be] filibustered
#swept up intellects
#tobeexposedonCOMPETANCE
Or positive thought
Go Figure
#newguysgalsneededascurrentuseless
mtp
LW – to complete the ‘rehabilitation’ of this particular print MSM outlet amongst many footy fans…perhaps the Sunday Herald could sponsor a senior footy team’s shirt ?
[I’m assuming they don’t already, and that it wouldn’t cost much].
…but they’d still have to replace Spiers with a proper sports journalist though. :slamb: :slamb: :slamb:
comeongetaff says:
September 20, 2014 at 4:58 pm
8 6 Rate This
Just for the sake of badness.Re Real Madrid.
What does The Catalan Football Monitor have to say on the subject?(Or should that be The North-West Spanish Football Monitor?)
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“The north Spanish Entity Monitor” 😀
ecobhoy says:
September 20, 2014 at 11:43 am
‘….And I often wonder how they would have actually behaved if they ended-up living in such a nightmare situation where a single lapse could lead to torture and summary execution..’
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Just very quickly, and not to perpetuate an out-of-place political discussion,can I say that I expressed myself unclearly. What I was getting at is, that unlike the Vichy French, under the heel of the Nazis, and therefore at huge risk of torture and execution etc, we Scots had only to put a mark on a ballot paper to re-assert our national independence, in free, non-violent, wholly peaceful democratic fashion! Perhaps we are the only people in the world who refuse to accept responsibility for governing ourselves, to the amusement/amazement of the world.
As regards supporters’ choice of who they wish to lead their club, that is indeed their business. I just say I’m baffled by their readiness to look to convicted criminals.
scapaflow says:
September 20, 2014 at 9:30 pm
If you changed your moniker to Mary Ellison, he’d really have something to worry about
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Haha! He certainly fancies Mary Ellison far more than Jean Brodie for many reasons 😉
twopanda says:
September 20, 2014 at 8:46 pm
2 1 Rate This
Is it an idea to have a TSFM Referendum thread?
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I’ll second that, but now that the referendum is history, how about a Scottish politics thread? Or even just a non football thread? Those of us who aren’t interested can avoid the politics, those who want to get involved can have some fun. Best of luck moderating it, though!
Seriously, though, I think that such a thread could attract a fair amount of traffic, given the quality of contributors on here. How about adverts on the “non football” thread(s), so funding the core football thread, which would remain an advert free zone?
Tsfm
Sandy solid best
Say something
TP
Tsfm,
tp knew SJ from long moons ago, he`s upset
mtp
Could someone give me a shout when all this referendum stuff is finished? I can’t be doing with it anymore. For comparison, in terms all of us can understand, I can’t understand how anyone would support the pars but I don’t keep banging on about it.
Kicker Conspiracy says:
September 21, 2014 at 12:58 am
‘.. I can’t understand how anyone would support the pars but I don’t keep banging on about it.’
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Aye, but you just have! 😀 :irony:
But you’re right, of course: ‘Big’ politics are not what the blog is about.
It’s more about the dirty wee ‘politics’ of unprincipled knights of the realm to whom being seen to be a cheat is no shame, and the even dirtier and more unprincipled ‘political’ behaviour of the Sports Authorities in sanctioning that cheating at the cost of any notion of Sporting Integrity.
Let’s get back to ensuring that our focus remains on the misdeeds of our Football Authorities, and on watching them like a hawk to prevent any recurrence of their incredibly blatant and poisonous disregard of sporting truth.
All their crowing over Hampden being chosen as a venue cannot change the fact that they in their own way are as corrupt as those who accept expensive watches.
They are destroyers of the very idea of sporting competition.
We need to keep that in mind.
In my opinion.
And I meant to mention earlier how enjoyable Off the ball was today in so many different ways. I have to say that I was struggling to remember Arild Stavrum,but will definitely read his novel.The guy speaks better English than I do, and can write crime novels -in English!
And it was interesting to hear Speirs trying to find out how exactly the newspaper sports hack in the novel meets his end!
A very enjoyable listen.
I had good fun imagining a Midsomer Murders end for some of our hacks:Rib of succulent lamb, very hot and pointy, jammed up the fundamental orifice, perhaps, and twisted upwards several times? … 😆
John Clark says:
September 21, 2014 at 2:23 am
4 0 Rate This
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Stuart C should receive a Scottish knighthood (if such a thing existed) for services to good humour, common sense and exposing bawbaggery in high places!
@JC
Regarding Arild Stavrum on OtB, he talks about revealing the murky side of football via the novel, fictional of course, but still.
Very funny guy too. I liked his, ‘All Danes sound drunk when they’re speaking’! There’s a certain truth in that, it is a very gutteral language.
Great stuff from a lad who would have been from a western Swedish entity had they not voted for independence in 1905! (Oops, I mentioned a referendum! Nurse!!).
On that subject, I read some comments in one of the Danish dailys about the now confirmed political status of Scotland and comparing that to the federal states of Germany. The argument was not against Scotland having a national team representing our north British entity (Lord Robertson), but making a case for the indiviual German states having their own ‘regional entity ‘national’ teams’. The subject came up on OtB too, and European nations could, with some justification, get stropy and agitate for a single British national team, and goodness knows how that might have a knock-on affect on European club football. And I saw Jack Straw (for it is he) pontificating about enshrining the union and outlawng independence. All this might, somewhere down the line, have implications for Scottish football.
Come on TSFM, lets have the ‘Bonkers North British Entity Thread’ 🙂
http://www.scotlandnow.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/former-aberdeen-striker-arild-stavrum-4269691
The Daily Record launches first salvo of Sunday Morning
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chief-graham-wallace-urges-4297450
MercDoc says:
September 21, 2014 at 8:24 am
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The Daily Record launches first salvo of Sunday Morning
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chief-graham-wallace-urges-4297450
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Pages 8 & 9 of The Digital Herald (Sunday) a must read, too. Although, referencing it verbatim here might be deemed OT.
John Clark says:
September 20, 2014 at 10:16 pm
Just very quickly, and not to perpetuate an out-of-place political discussion,can I say that I expressed myself unclearly. What I was getting at is, that unlike the Vichy French, under the heel of the Nazis, and therefore at huge risk of torture and execution etc, we Scots had only to put a mark on a ballot paper to re-assert our national independence, in free, non-violent, wholly peaceful democratic fashion! Perhaps we are the only people in the world who refuse to accept responsibility for governing ourselves, to the amusement/amazement of the world.
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I agree that your original post raised political issues which IMO were out of place in this blog and that’s why in my previous response to you I tried to steer clear of politics in explaining why I thought your comment was unworthy of the Scots who exercised their Democratic Right by voting NO.
However, lest we forget, the statement I took exception to was:
BTW ‘Pusillanimity’ in my book is defined as a lack of courage verging on cowardice.
IMO I’m afraid you just don’t get it @JC. Modern Scotland bears no comparison to the establishment of Vichy following the Fall of France in 1940. It was a terrible yet fascinating time and shaped generations of French thinking and politics even to this day. Well worth a read.
However back to the issue at hand. Scotland is a mature Democracy where eligible voters had the right to vote whatever way they chose or, indeed, not to cast their vote.
And in a mature Democracy the majority vote usually prevails and rational losers – once beyond the hurt/shock of defeat – will hopefully examine why they failed to convince the majority.
In that process of self-examination there is a lot to be learnt IMO for the wider good of society through mutual understanding rather than fostering further division.
But the biggest lesson of all it to never ever underestimate the general public who by casting their vote decide the result and from time to time give their political masters a bloody-nose to remind them that their role is to serve the will of the people.
IMO anyone baffled by the result wasn’t listening/observing closely enough to the silent majority of NO voters and the rationale behind their individual votes.
I have no idea what the immediate future holds for Scotland in general but until I draw my last breath I will continue to fight for what I believe is the best possible future for generations yet to be born.
I may be totally wrong in my beliefs but that’s the beauty of a Democracy – we don’t need to live in fear of how we cast our votes although we do often have to live with the consequences.
That’s why the reasons for casting a vote have to be carefully arrived at and I truly hope that this campaign has got the ’emotional’ factors out of our system and that all sides can now sit down and rationally decide how to make Scotland an even better place to live.
In that regard we have many severe challenges no matter which way the Referendum Vote had gone. Now we need politicians that have the vision to create that fairer and more inclusive Scotland that I’m sure all decent and compassionate people want to achieve.
MercDoc says:
September 21, 2014 at 8:24 am
The Daily Record launches first salvo of Sunday Morning
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chief-graham-wallace-urges-4297450
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I can only imagine that the ‘dressing room’ has started to make rumbles about the bonuses for cup competitions 😆
Fairer, inclusive, decent, compassionate, all in the same sentence as politicians. ecobhoy, you have excelled yourself!
I have to say that I find the argument that the fast-sinking Herald and its Sister Sunday are in for a circulation boost because of a political decision to back the losing side in a recent ‘election’ to be more than a little naive.
Especially when the reason given for the remorseloss fall in circulation for years is given as the content of the sports pages of the two organs.
I have no doubt that the circulation of both ‘rags’ and all their SMSM stablemates – including those who supported the ‘other’ side – will continue to plummet inexorably towards extinction.
However the reason behind the collapse of printed news media is a complex melange and not avoidable by a dodgy last-minute conversion in a desperate bid to escape the sword by recanting old ways.
I would point out that I pick ‘melange’ not with regard to cooking ingredients but more from geology wearing my State Aid land issue hard-hat 😎
IMO the SMSM is a bit like Rangers – it is no longer what it was and will never be so again.
MercDoc says:
September 21, 2014 at 9:40 am
Fairer, inclusive, decent, compassionate, all in the same sentence as politicians. ecobhoy, you have excelled yourself!
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I always take great pleasure when the majority of any electorate remind politicians – who believe they are the political Masters – that they govern only through the will and consent of the people.
I hope that the energy created during the Referendum Campaign will be sustained and mature so that as well as reinvigorating grass roots politics it percolates into all stratas of society to form a well-spring of motivation for change and a better Scotland.
Now our politicians must excel themselves and show that they can sit down together and build a Scotland changed for the better. There are many things I would like to say but they would involve political argument so I won’t go there.
However ALL politicians IMO will be judged by their actions in the coming months and their willingness to move-on. We have to move beyond recrminations and build for the future in an increasingly fragile world in economic and political terms.
And now we have Deila bleating about how good it would be to have a Celtic v TRFC cup clash.(Sunday Herald).
This unprincipled insistence on trying to legitimise the evil that has been done and sweep it under the carpet for the sake of a coin or two really irritates me, as does any sort of selling the pass for filthy lucre.
In my humble opinion: which, of course, I have the democratic right to express, a right, as others have mentioned,the preservation of which was fought for by my Scots Guardsman father in a bitter, bloody battle in which he was seriously wounded.
ecobhoy says:
September 21, 2014 at 9:16 am
In that process of self-examination there is a lot to be learnt IMO for the wider good of society through mutual understanding rather than fostering further division.
But the biggest lesson of all it to never ever underestimate the general public who by casting their vote decide the result and from time to time give their political masters a bloody-nose to remind them that their role is to serve the will of the people.
…………………………
Eco,
I don’t often post, but feel prompted to on this occasion.
I should also add that I admire your posts for truth and objectivity.
However, I do experience a sharp intake of breath in relation to one or two of your
comments on the Big R.
I suspect that you will know already that the majority voice did not hold sway in 1974, but I shall mention that in case any younger posters are not aware that the people of Scotland voted for Devolution in 1974, albeit by a narrow margin. Through a piece of narrow political chicanery (ring any bells with the fall out over the past few days?), Scotland did not get what the people wanted until very much later. The turnout was low on that occasion, about the same as for General Elections. However, I suspect that if the No vote had won by the same amount last Thursday, the result would have been grabbed with grateful hands by all the Westminster-oriented parties.
I have lived in England for many years. My father had to move here to do better for his family. I suspect, but cannot confirm in any way, that if Scotland had been at least a more self-governing nation much earlier in the 20th century, we may have been able to remain in Scotland. My late mother always regretted the move.
I shall finish with a comment from an Englishman on the train to Scotland yesterday. I was heading to New Douglas Park to see my team, Killie, grab an important point (I didn’t think it was a dull game, by the way!)
The steward on the train was asking if I was getting off at Newcastle so that he could clear my dirty cup. I told him that I was crossing the Border. He said that I wouldn’t need a passport after all – I was going to Neverland! Nuff said!
TSFM,
P.S. Apologies for Referendum comments (although I did mention fitba’ towards the end) but had to rise to Eco’s bait. Have smacked myself on wrist.
Regards and keep up good work
Haywire says:
September 21, 2014 at 1:04 pm
1 1 Rate This
…I have lived in England for many years. My father had to move here to do better for his family. I suspect, but cannot confirm in any way, that if Scotland had been at least a more self-governing nation much earlier in the 20th century, we may have been able to remain in Scotland. My late mother always regretted the move.
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Indeed, many of us are exiles of necessity. My auld dad would have been 101 on the 18th. I had hoped that the country would take a step towards creating a better and fairer nation than the one both he and I were born into.
My last day at school in 1971 consisted of teachers explaining to us all how to sign on. No jobs, no prospects of employment, urban decay, an oppressive class system. It all seemed the norm to me until I ended up on the other side of the North Sea.
I had imagined returning to an indy Scotland with the small business I run. Been nice to have been a part of nation building. Alas.
I always enjoy eco’s posts. I think that we probably agree on the goals, whilst disagreeing on the means to achieving them.
Labour are heading off to their conference, I hope they enjoy their Triumph, they earned it. But, for their sake’s, I hope someone is whispering in their ears “All glory is fleeting”
Looks like Man Utd have caught the lurgy aff the Hibs …. Weird
Sorry if mentioned before … But has anyone else noticed the wee posters around the soo’side advertising “drive thru movies” at the albion car park ?
Whisperer
Meanwhile, over on the East side, our visitors are currently enjoying our offer of ‘walk thru defences’.
I hear the Rangers Charity Halloween Ball is back this year at the Hilton ,at £100 a pop and a poss 600 seat sell out there will be a few bob raised ,I imagine this will be one of quite a few fund raising events throughout the season.
Cosgrove was excellent. Spiers was predictably …. well lets just leave it at predictable shall we 😡 . Certainly Stuart was taking great pleasure in highighting his two facedness but Spiers new response seems to be playing the fool rather than face up to what is being said.
JC. Arild Stavrum was a talented striker for AFC notorious for being permenantly offside. Of course it now transpires that he along with many others was actually playing against a loaded deck but Graham didn’t seem to mind (or even remember) that particular point. Suffice it to say (bearing in mind Stuart is there to play the court jester (in Tam’s absence), Spiers is supposed to be the intellectual sporting input) the only question he could come up with on the period was “Did Ebbe Skovdahl like a drink?” (hence the drunk and danish comment). I don’t remember anything quite so un-deferential when the likes of Gough or Laudrup were in town. 👿
yourhavingalaugh says: September 21, 2014 at 4:16 pm
I hear the Rangers Charity Halloween Ball is back this year at the Hilton…
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Is Rafat Rizvi going – maybe disguised as The Grim Reaper?
And as for ‘Drive Thru Movies’ at the Albion Car Park – maybe they could cheer up the bears by showing that relevant classic: ‘Dirty Rotten Scoundrels’ ?