A guest blog by former Celtic & Scotland defender, Jim Craig
“What time is this to come back?”
Dolores McCann (her Mother had been a great fan of foreign films) stood in that classic pose of the wounded woman – up to her full height and chin forward – as she glared at her husband who had just come in the front door. Before he could say a word, she gave him another volley;
“you left the house at half-past-two for a three o’clock kick-off, it only takes you 20 minutes to get to the ground, a match lasts only one-and-a-half hours plus ten minutes for the break and you’ve just walked back in the door at half-past-seven! So where the hell were you?”.
Wayne McCann (his father liked Westerns) tried to calm her down.
“Dolores, you don’t know what it’s like at football matches nowadays ; it has changed out of all recognition; a match goes on for much longer”.
“In what way?” Dolores asked.
“Well, for a start, the players and even the managers can complain about any decision that is given against them. If that happens, the referee then goes and has a word with firstly, the two assistant referees, then the fourth official and gets their comments before he reflects on the situation. If he is still in any doubt that he made the wrong decision then he can ask the guy upstairs sitting in front of a television screen what he thinks. And, of course, all through this, the managers and players of both teams can chip in with their comments. That all adds a fair bit of time to the match”.
“Aye…but turning up at half-past-seven is still a bit over the top…is it no’?”
“Well, no’ really……you see, nowadays you are not allowed to have a drawn game, so if the match is level at the full-time whistle, there is extra time, which takes a minimum of half-an-hour”.
“The time is still no’ matching up!”
“Aye, mibbe so, if that was the end of the match. But if the match is still level at the end of extra-time, then it goes to a penalty shoot-out. I told you…you are not allowed a drawn game”.
“ A penalty shoot-out disnae take long”.
“That might have been the case at one time but because so many keepers were being accused of moving before the ball was kicked, nowadays they are strapped in to a harness which anchors them in the middle of the goal. They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball. So, after each kick, the keeper has to be put back into the harness and it all starts again. And, of course, you get the complaints from the managers and players that the harness wasnae working properly or that the officials who put the harness on didnae put it on right. That all adds up to the time factor”.
“Did you go to the pub?”
“As God is my judge, Dolores, after the match finished, I came straight here”.
“Who won anyway?”
“That’s a difficult question… there was so much noise and kerfuffle both on the pitch and in the stands, nobody was quite sure what the final score was. And the guy who usually does the announcing had gone home. Somebody said that he had a date. Anyway, if you let me turn on the radio, I’ll hear the score there. And Dolores?”
“Yes”
Wayne walked over to the drinks cabinet and took out a couple of glasses. “I don’t suppose you would fancy a wee drink”
We will leave the smooth-talking Wayne to his attempts to mollify Dolores and reflect on the situation. What you have just read is probably the ultimate scenario for those who wish to tamper with the current rules of football. Do I think that the game needs radical changes like that? No but I do think that some change is necessary and in one specific circumstance.
Now, I was a professional footballer for 9 years and in all that time, I can put my hand on my heart and state with complete conviction that I never pulled any other player’s jersey. Did I try to half him in two with a tackle, yes! But no jersey-pulling. And, of course, I was penalised for the challenge.
Today, though, I feel that there is a lot of body-checking and jersey-pulling going on in every match. Very often the referee lets it go and then you get the ridiculous scenario at a corner kick when all those waiting for the ball to come in are pulling and pushing, with the referee watching it and ignoring it. It is a foul, ref!
When the referee decides that an offence has been committed, then the player will be spoken to first. If he does it again, he will be given a yellow-card. The problem is, though, that the offence might possibly have affected the play in the match, whereas the yellow card does not affect the player’s participation.
If the player is daft enough to do it again, then of course he gets another yellow and will be off. Most, however, are sensible and keep the head, so they go unpunished as far as the current match is concerned. What we have to find is a punishment that affects the match in which the transgression occurred. Which means that we have to consider the sin bin.
This works very well in rugby and gives the referee a means to punish an offence a little more harshly – yet more efficiently – than a yellow card but without having to go for the ultimate, drastic – and for many unpalatable – option of the red card. I hope it comes in soon.
Signatories to the petition at
https://www.change.org/p/peter-lawell-ceo-celtic-fc-petition-to-seek-information-from-the-sfa?recruiter=846655274&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=share_twitter_responsive
nearing 2000.
Thanks if you have signed up and encouragement to do so if you haven’t.
AuldheidFebruary 26, 2018 at 21:25
‘..Signatories to the petition ….. nearing 2000.’
___________________
That’s quite impressive, I’d say.
Over 2000 2022 at last count.
Has the Beast from the East struck already?
Well, since my own plans for this morning have been changed, let me , while staying on topical topic, mention that, in trying to learn something about the recruitment, training, deployment and control of ‘refereeing’ I came across some interesting information in the judgment by Lady Stacey in a judicial review of an employment tribunal hearing.l
The appeal itself is neither here nor there, but there is interesting backgroundof ‘facts’. The case is a few years old, and things may have changed in some respects, but I suspect the basic structures may sill be the same.
Check it out on this link
https://www.employmentcasesupdate.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed22367
If you scroll down to ‘Background’ you’ll see what Lady Stacey found to be the facts on which the Employment Tribunal judge had applied the law.
JOHN CLARKFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 10:00
If you scroll down to ‘Background’ you’ll see what Lady Stacey found to be the facts on which the Employment Tribunal judge had applied the law.
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Her Ladyship and counsel appear to have relied on the findings in Quashie v Stringfellows Restaurants. There must be a joke in there somewhere.
Why are Scottish referees like lap dancers?
I still think the best thing I have read about referees was within a post from Auldheid some weeks ago. (I searched for ages and couldn’t find it).
The main thrust of the proposals was that there would be a separation of powers re. referees in Scottish football. The SFA would be a provider of refereeing services. Recruitment and training. However the SPFL would be the customer. With the ability to review performances. Also be able to purchase refereeing services from outwith Scotland if they felt the need.
The days of the SFA being in total control answerable to nobody must surely come to an end. If there is one thing that unites all clubs in Scotland it is that the standard of refereeing in Scotland is very poor. They need to be made more accountable.
Referees now earn as much as most professional footballers in Scotland. The days of honest mistakes by amateurs are gone.
Jimbo, I don’t think you would find many who disagree with you there. The standard of referees in Scottish Football is at an all time low.
I found it funny to see some on here discuss John Beaton as ‘anti-Celtic’. I could list an endless show of examples on where his shocking decisions have hurt Rangers badly so it came as a surprise to find he is equally as bad against others. Beaton was so poor earlier in the year that a Rangers petition was raised against a perceived ‘bias’ against us which raised 10,000 signatures (not that I agreed or signed). So how can a referee continue to be so bad regardless of the opposition that he makes the fans of all the teams he referees believe there is a bias against them?
He’s not alone. Steven McLean has been consistently dreadful in games he’s refereed for us and we have sufferred a lot of missed points and injuries as a result, yet he is apparantly called ‘brother McLean’ across the city so is clearly equally as hopeless against anyone. And don’t get me started on Collum.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/14064682
Referees wages.
In 2011 it was to become £840 per Premier League match. Probably much more now. Plus they get good ‘add ons’. (as we read above on JCs link, BUPA) Many officiate at more than one match per week.
Many F/T pro footballers outwith the top clubs are on £1k, £1.5k per week.
I listened to a match discussion on radio recently where the pundits agreed the highest earner on the pitch was the ref. And it was a top tier game.
I can’t see how the SPFL and the clubs could independently assess referees performances.
Lennon and Clarke and their clubs will have two totally different views of the weekends performance and the much talked about penalty incident. The same arguments would just be held in a different forum.
The refs being with the SFA is fine as it is. All that is needed to a bit more transparency with regard to how they are reviewed and graded.
Players and managers are viewed by their performance, points won, goals scored, cards received etc etc.
A weekly referee rating table would help keep them on their toes along with difficult/contentious decisions being explained via the refs supervisor.
Anyone watching the rugby at the weekend were generally left in no doubt why the referee ‘gave /did not give’ the decisions he did. In football we are left guessing.
Also those rugby guys are set up with ref cams so you can get an idea of what they are seeing directly and in real time. In any assessment system or even a review by the TV, such technology can be brought into play and I would guess it would help refs get off the hook on many occasion as the real time incident on the pitch looks totally different from what is seen from the stands, let alone the multiple angles on TV slow-mo replays.
PS.
I also find that many managers, players, fans and pundits are often seen not to be au fait with the rules of the game and in some cases should be the last people commenting on refereeing decisions.
DBD, yes I’ve read it many times, the same referee getting pelters and accusation of bias from all clubs. It seems you fall into one of two camps.
1/ Referees are incompetent as agreed by most.
2/ Twas ever such. If everybody hates them they must be fair. Even if incompetent.
Either way they are very poor.
Reminds me of the Daily Record, hated by all. It still doesn’t make it a good newspaper. (Back pages I’m speaking about).
A tweet from James Doleman
James Doleman @jamesdoleman 38s38 seconds agoJust received permission to live tweet Dave King appeal against Court of Session decision in favour of takeover panel. Weather permitting it’s off to Edinburgh tomorrow.
Looks like the SMSM is catching up – only one week behind now. In case the link doesn’t work, the Evening Times is breaking the floating charge story
I’d suggest that within the text of the story there’s a veiled reference to the broken promise made in the accounts of further loans from someone not noted for being honest, but, of course, completely fails to draw any journalistic conclusions from the need to now get secured lending facilities.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/16050549.Rangers_use_Ibrox_property_including_WiFi_and_TV_screens_as_security_over___3m_funding/?ref=twtrec
I quite like the idea of anchoring goalies to the middle of goals during a penalty shoot out.
I think that could work!
What we need with the standard of referees we have in Scottish football, is a change in the rules to allow them greater leeway to affect the result of the match. Still, as long as the mistakes are all honest, we’ve nothing to worry about.
Scottish Refs. going full time would improve standards.
I promise you it’s not because Graeme Murty has said this that I disagree with it. I just don’t get the connection. They either know the rules and how to implement them or they don’t. If they are not switched on enough for instant recognition of offences and judgement calls then they don’t have that skill set required.
Going full time would only multiply their incompetence.
Using technology to assist them would help them when in doubt.
ALLYJAMBO
FEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 14:42
Looks like the SMSM is catching up – only one week behind now. In case the link doesn’t work, the Evening Times is breaking the floating charge story…
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http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/16045056.rangers-use-ibrox-property-including-wifi-and-tv-screens-as-security-over-3m-funding/?ref=mr&lp=1
The same Martin Williams in the Herald yesterday was the first to break ranks.
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I see DBD is writing that John Beaton has been hard on TRFC with his decisions. Wasn’t he the ref who allowed the Moshni equaliser against Albion Rovers in March 2014? Kept them in the Scottish Cup, I recall…
“They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball”
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no, they are allowed to move sideways along the goal line at any time, as long as they don’t move off it!
“..The defending goalkeeper:
• must remain on his goal line, facing the kicker, between the goalposts until the ball has been kicked ”
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/02/36/01/11/lawsofthegameweben_neutral.pdf
AllyjamboFebruary 27, 2018 at 14:42
‘…the Evening Times is breaking the floating charge story,’
_______________
As a generalisation , one thing that the less honest men of business and conmen have in common is a desire to do anything but call a spade a spade:
I expect that where you and I and millions of ordinary punters might get a “loan”, dodgy directors of struggling businesses are afforded a ‘funding facility’, and dull-witted and/or protective ‘journalists’ just repeat what they are told, without thought.
And without questioning why moneybags King needs to have TRFC Ltd borrow money at punitive rates.
Honest to God, how difficult can it be to ask a question?
There must be a special place in Hades for the kind of ‘reporter’ who wrote that piece, and an even more special place for being so late in ‘reporting’!
Oh dear John Clark you have just broken the moderation rules without realising it.
I listened to the final part in a Radio 4 extra drama serial yesterday. FALCO. It’s about a detective in the Roman Empire. Anyhow Marcus Didius Falco uttered the line ‘By Hades!’ and was immediately remonstrated by his little niece for SWEARING!
(Language Timothy!!) Ala Ronnie Corbett show.
Tut Tut.
There is much to be learned from other sports and the sin bin idea has merit.
But rugby is a different game with very different flow of the ball. Time is also a factor.
More interesting is the attitude of rugby players to the ref. Very different to football though it is deteriorating
WOTTPIFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 13:04
PS.I also find that many managers, players, fans and pundits are often seen not to be au fait with the rules of the game and in some cases should be the last people commenting on refereeing decisions.
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I remember Gordon Smith once using the ‘in the spirit of the game’ argument to defend a decision to award Rangers a goal. A cross had gone behind the bye line but Stuart McCall made an incredible effort to play it back across goal before the ball had touched the ground and Rangers subsequently scored. The replay showed the ball had been clearly out of play but Smith used the fact that McCall had done so well to reach the ball that no-one should complain ‘in the spirit of the game’. Yes, that is the same Gordon Smith who defended Rangers use of EBT’s on the basis it made for more exciting league finishes.
Sin bin? Think a mod put my post in there yesterday…………
It’s an idea, but I reckon it would simply cause more disagreement: ‘Clancy’s put my centre half in the sin bin just as we were tightening our grip on the match’. Really can’t enjoy some of the tweaks to the Laws of the Game which have been introduced, but as the tooth pulling but not jersey pulling full back outlines, the game has changed markedly over the years. And I reckon he is more qualified to make recommendations on changes to the game than me.
One change I don’t think has been mentioned on here, which Scottish fans may not have noticed, in connection with the state broadcaster, BBC: their website no longer provides updates of Scottish League One and Two matches, as they progress.
Maybe this is due to cutbacks: we must not contribute the same Licence Fee as those south of the border. However, updates appear to be provided for live matches involving such as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Lazio and Barcelona. How much revenue is raised in Spain, Italy and Germany for the UK state broadcaster?
PS, I’ve emailed the mods directly via the contact facility.
ALLYJAMBOFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 14:42
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Looks like the SMSM is catching up – only one week behind now. In case the link doesn’t work, the Evening Times is breaking the floating charge story
—————–
Just in time for the Dave King appeal against Court of Session decision in favour of takeover panel. The SMSM have broke the news to the masses. How strange it has taken a week.
Are the SMSM getting the ibrox fans ready for more bad news?
Yes we broke the news first that DCK has broken promises made in the accounts and also print whatever bad news comes out of Edinburgh.
Is the path getting cleared to get rid of king?
WOTTPI
The problem with SFA being the monitor of referee performance is that they are the same body responsible for training and judging if a referee is of a standard where he can referee at the top level.
So if a referee fails to perform to that standard are the SFA going to admit that they have in fact failed in their training and judgement that promotes a sub standard ref to a level above his capabilities?
That is an inherent flaw in the set up.
The answer is not to let the SPFL judge ref performance but let them appoint a panel of ex refs from outside Scotland to do the monitoring to a set of standards both SFA and SPFL agree to.
Make the agreed standard public providing transparency and watch the SFA up their training and promotion game and if they dont free the SPFL to go to an association who already have refs of the required standard or an organisation set up to train and provide professional referees to compete with SFA.
Culture changing.
UPTHEHOOPSFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 18:37
Yes, that is the same Gordon Smith who defended Rangers use of EBT’s on the basis it made for more exciting league finishes.
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The same GS who walked away and blamed CW for not letting him do his job 24 feb 2012
The Gordon Smith fact file
I think he runs a cleaning firm now with an ex celtic player
I like the idea of a sin bin.
As Jim says that way the punishment is received in the game which the offence is committed.
I find it a tad ludicrous that a player can commit fouls in one game but end up missing an entirely different game. In fact it could end up that he misses a game against an opponent who is actually in competition with the team who were the opposition when the player committed the foul.
I like the idea that the player and team are punished and the opposition gain an advantage. It seems to work well in rugby. Where the players tend to just accept it, certainly in my limited experience. Though to be fair the general attitude towards the referee, and how they work with the players seems to be a totally different dynamic.
I’d go further, excessive dissent at the sin bin decision, it’s 15 minutes now, do you want to keep talking.
Indeed, was that not exactly the accusation made against Scott Brown; that he deliberately got booked in one game so that he would not miss the Rangers game? (Note that I am not making that accusation. Nor do I have any particular concern if he did or did not.
Well it is now obvious Neil Lennon was sent to the stand on the word of the fourth official. Industrial language is no longer acceptable in football.
I have an idea.
Why not issue the 4th official with a red flag? Indeed, why not the linesmen and those officials on occasion who run about behind the goals. They don’t seem to contribute much. Give them something to do.
Sorted. Take the pressure off the referee.
I like the sin bin idea. In fact whilst enjoying the last two rugby internationals on TV from Murray field I thought football could learn a lot in terms of sporting attitude on the field and around it and the refereeing (even though I haven’t a clue on the rules) was superb in terms of handling decisions.
Easy Jambo and Homunculus might be interested in this E Tims article asking questions of Doncaster’s role in the 5 way.
http://etims.net/?p=12574#comment-911313
I have to say that Doncaster’s reliance on LNS, which was a sham from beginning to end, is why that Commission has to be set aside and him with it.
For all the merits of a Sin Bin, it could be just too radical for FIFA & UEFA !
…well look how long it’s taken them to adopt ‘non-judgemental’, goal-line technology?
However, IMO, significant changes to the game format will be dictated by the TV companies.
For the money they pay to clubs, TV currently dictates day and kick-off times – and without any regard whatsoever for the ‘real’ football customers who want to attend the matches.
So, if/when ratings start to fall the TV companies will demand more for their money.
IMO, one such ‘development’ could be two halves becoming 4 quarters, to enable extra TV advert-selling time.
[Would anyone listen to protesting fans ?]
Extra breaks seems more likely than introducing a Sin Bin to improve the game.
More commercials = more money for the FA’s and clubs.
Business trumps sporting integrity, etc.
jimboFebruary 27, 2018 at 17:03
“Oh dear John Clark you have just broken the moderation rules without realising it.”
________________
You’ve set this up nicely for me, jimbo:
This is a direct quote ,demonstrative of the changing nature of language that I think Homunculus referenced the other day, which comes from a short story by GK Chesterton [First published in English Life, Jan 1925, as “Dr Hyde, Detective, and the White Pillars Murder”Reprinted in Ellery Queen’s Mystery Magazine, Sep 1945]
which I am reading now on my lap-top, as I sit in the warmth of my kitchen, radio on, listening to the game at Perth:
“As a signal that his own working hours were over, he lit a large and sumptuous cigar, and began pishing and poohing over the newspapers.”
Now, that made me laugh.
And it wa’d be a gey soor-faced Mod that would girn at it, I think.
HomunculusFebruary 27, 2018 at 19:18
I like the idea of a sin bin.
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I also think the sin bin idea is worth thinking about for the reasons stated by you and Jim Craig. I watch a lot of rugby (not necessarily top class stuff always) and it works. If I recall Jim has a son who wisnae bad? However the discipline of respecting a ref decision (and there are some howlers!) by rugby players and managers is night and day compared to footballers at ANY level.
Anyway much as I would like justice to be done it is good to see a blog and posts unrelated to the future demise of TRFC.
I’m off to watch my 2nd Scottish team (lived in Perth when a fresh faced AMcC and John (Gerald) Brogan played for the Sainties) hopefully recover against TRFC.
Following the Close Leasing crisis loan, and further inquiries from suppliers with overdue receivables from RIFC/TRFC…
It would seem perfectly reasonable for anybody to ask;
“Is the Ibrox club/company CURRENT with its VAT and payroll tax deduction payments to HMRC ?”
Yes / No ?
Would any SMSM ‘journalist’ ever ask such a question on behalf of their customers / current taxpayers?
the Dave King appeal against Court of Session decision in favour of takeover panel.
Who was in and who was out a small reminder.
AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 18:47
I see where you are coming from but totally convoluted.
Try simple transparency first with regard to the standards that are expected and how the refs are assessed as meeting those standards and see where that gets us.
Like the footballing side of things we should be working to train and develop top quality home grown referees as opposed to be running off thinking the grass is greener elsewhere at the first sign of a drop in standards.
As it is we have Uefa and the site below appears to have Collum and Thompson listed in the top 30 Uefa elite referees. Are we saying Uefa are being conned and that these two SFA trained refs are imposters.
http://refereeingworld.blogspot.co.uk/p/fifa-beach-soccer-world-cup-finals.html
All that would happen is that, like modern players, the refs would pretty quickly try and set up a pool of super refs for the top leagues and we would be left with the referring equivalent of an under-performing incomer wage thieves amongst our own lesser quality whistlers.
I’d also be looking to introduce sin bins, moving the play 10 yards on for abusing the ref. Captains only allowed to communicate with Ref/ officials unless he asks to speak to a specific players, etc etc etc.
While we can all agree there needs to be an improvements in refs performances nothing should be done without changing the culture of the poor behaviour of managers and players.
The whole issue of refereeing, rules, attitudes etc needs to be looked at as a whole as opposed to just the refs being lambasted and put under the microscope.
Yes the current SFA may not be best placed at present but I have little faith in the SPFL being any better.
JC that was very very funny. How words change.
Sweary words too over time.
I’ve listened to HOME FRONT on R4/ R4extra since it began. The word bloody was a no no on all levels of a class ridden society at the time (1st WW). Just about acceptable between men but not in front of a woman. Not even a scullery maid.
Can’t begin to think what they would think of the language in a modern day dugout.
For the record yellow cards in rugby can mount up and player receives a ban.
sevco 3 goals up should celtic start being afraid?
Shug, how’s the wee dugs?
(4 up now, change the subject)
Both of them have now passed on jimbo the wee one lying down went last jan he was 17.
I lasted 3 days before i said to the wife I need a dug so we rescued a 2yr old yellow lab who is now 3 and added an other rescue in the shape of an 18 month fox red lab.
This is them lol. No idea what happened to above pic.
Shug, I wouldn’t have asked if I knew that. It’s such a lovely picture. You and the wife obviously have hearts of gold.
Jimbo, instead of anchoring goalies , just have them elasticated.
It’s fine jimbo no reason to worry I just love dogs of course that may be because I have never lived in a house without a dog since I was 5yrs old lol and these 2 boys keep me on the go.
Sorry mods I will stay on topic.
Stan,
The other option I thought about was to even things up, the striker is not allowed to wear footie boots.
Shug don’t worry, when news is thin on the ground for the main purpose of the blog there are plenty empty spaces to fill providing it is harmless fun between on line friends. Tomorrow when James Doleman and maybe JC & EJ start reporting from the court, different rules apply. At least that is my experience. They are a forgiving & tolerant bunch on here.
Shug, had a great laugh over on CQN last week. Mikeintoronto is like yourself a great dog lover. He lost a dog recently and was you know. So he got himself a new pup. Called it Seamus Larsson! Gave it a persona who started posting on CQN. It was hilarious. I ‘spoke’ to it a few times.
You have to laugh
He wasn’t sure who to support so I suggested he have a look at Hoopy The Hound. He is now a Celtic supporting pup!
Well Duplo the big yellow lab is Romanian so not really into scottish footy and Rolo well he came from southside of glasgow paisley road west so is prob a sevvy supporter lol.
The petition now has 2737 signatures discuss.
This is for Jean, Chris and Bally
https://www.sfm.scot/forums/topic/music-tastes-on-sfm/page/24/#post-6818
wottpiFebruary 27, 2018 at 20:16
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AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 18:47
I see where you are coming from but totally convoluted.
Try simple transparency first with regard to the standards that are expected and how the refs are assessed as meeting those standards and see where that gets us.
Like the footballing side of things we should be working to train and develop top quality home grown referees as opposed to be running off thinking the grass is greener elsewhere at the first sign of a drop in standards.
====================
Its not convoluted it is normal good business practice to separate customer from supplier and adopting this approach would lead to a European wide professional refereeing service and market where a superior standard is created by competition.
It would also remove a flaw in developing our own, if the refs come from elsewhere they can declare their club allegiance and would unlikely to be supporters of a Scottish club and so remove at a stroke the biggest bug bear, perceived allegiance.
Home refs would be part of that same market and could sell their services outside of Scotland and earn more.
Professional football with the money at stake demands a professional refereeing service and the last place on earth I’d look to develop such a concept is the SFA.
That does not preclude a softening up by having more transparency, but I think we need to think outside the box.
Cheers Auldeid you say it much better than me.
shugFebruary 27, 2018 at 22:38
Well Duplo the big yellow lab is Romanian so not really into scottish footy and Rolo well he came from southside of glasgow paisley road west so is prob a sevvy supporter lol.
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Come on Mods get this keech off here. It is ruining the blog.
Auldheid. sorry
wottpiFebruary 27, 2018 at 20:16
AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 27, 2018 at 18:47
I see where you are coming from but totally convoluted.
Try simple transparency first with regard to the standards that are expected and how the refs are assessed as meeting those standards and see where that gets us.
Like the footballing side of things we should be working to train and develop top quality home grown referees as opposed to be running off thinking the grass is greener elsewhere at the first sign of a drop in standards.
As it is we have Uefa and the site below appears to have Collum and Thompson listed in the top 30 Uefa elite referees. Are we saying Uefa are being conned and that these two SFA trained refs are imposters.
http://refereeingworld.blogspot.co.uk/p/fifa-beach-soccer-world-cup-finals.html
All that would happen is that, like modern players, the refs would pretty quickly try and set up a pool of super refs for the top leagues and we would be left with the referring equivalent of an under-performing incomer wage thieves amongst our own lesser quality whistlers.
I’d also be looking to introduce sin bins, moving the play 10 yards on for abusing the ref. Captains only allowed to communicate with Ref/ officials unless he asks to speak to a specific players, etc etc etc.
While we can all agree there needs to be an improvements in refs performances nothing should be done without changing the culture of the poor behaviour of managers and players.
The whole issue of refereeing, rules, attitudes etc needs to be looked at as a whole as opposed to just the refs being lambasted and put under the microscope.
Yes the current SFA may not be best placed at present but I have little faith in the SPFL being any better.
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Refereeing in Scotland is poor at the moment with incompetent pompus arseholes like Collum, McLean and Madden in charge. Thompson I don’t mind – when he gets it wrong I’m happy its a mistake.
Refs should be made to declare their team and then never be allowed to ref their games. That way we can take the OF bias out of it, until they find a new way to corrupt it.
I once spoke to a non OF facing ref who said to me that he should have sent off a Rangers player the night before but didn’t because there was only a few minutes to go.
Maybe that was fine at the time and probably other refs have made the same decision but whilst it didn’t affect the result of that game. The fact that the player got to play in future games when he should have been suspended makes it unfair.
Herald reporting that there is “now no evidence any crime was committed” in the Rangers takeover and any proceedings against Charles Green and Imran Ahmed have now been dropped.
I never thought they’d find a ‘shred’ of evidence.
HELPUMOOTFEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 05:11
Herald reporting that there is “now no evidence any crime was committed” in the Rangers takeover and any proceedings against Charles Green and Imran Ahmed have now been dropped.I never thought they’d find a ‘shred’ of evidence
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But, but Mr king said he would get justice when he took control.Justice may just bite him today if court case goes ahead.
So… on the face of it, the case against King is a slam dunk and it should really be a formality that the Court finds in favour of the TOP.
So… I’m just putting this out there now that I reckon he’s going to get away with it. I don’t know why or how, but every time he’s been in a tight spot before he’s managed to squeeze out of it. Nothing ever seems to stick.
I hope I’m wrong, because the dealings with the TOP in particular show that this man has done far more to bring Scottish football into disrepute than my old friend Mr Romanov – but has got away with it all…
HomunculusFebruary 27, 2018 at 19:18
I like the idea of a sin bin.As Jim says that way the punishment is received in the game which the offence is committed.I find it a tad ludicrous that a player can commit fouls in one game but end up missing an entirely different game. In fact it could end up that he misses a game against an opponent who is actually in competition with the team who were the opposition when the player committed the foul.I like the idea that the player and team are punished and the opposition gain an advantage. It seems to work well in rugby. Where the players tend to just accept it, certainly in my limited experience. Though to be fair the general attitude towards the referee, and how they work with the players seems to be a totally different dynamic.I’d go further, excessive dissent at the sin bin decision, it’s 15 minutes now, do you want to keep talking.
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And are you happy to give the referees we all consider to be very poor the power to change the course of a game because they reduce a side to ten men by one of their ‘honest mistakes’?
Something else to consider when comparing rugby with football. When a rugby player is sent to the sin bin, his side loses one fifteenth of it’s team, in football it would be one tenth of the outfield players that is lost. That is quite a difference in the actual effect on the result.
We also saw on Saturday that the referee had to make his decision based on video evidence, and it wasn’t quick. Are we going to rely on those match officials we don’t already trust, or is every club in senior Scottish football going to have the required video technology to ensure that the rules, or the enforcing of the rules, remain the same from top to bottom, or from rich to poor?
Something to consider, too, when we compare the way rugby players accept the referee’s decisions; the rugby referee doesn’t just make decisions, he helps both sides to play within the rules, continuously warning them when they are close to breaking the rules, something that has become obvious to us non-rugby types since they were wired up for TV. There is a rapport between the ref and the players that could never exist in football (apart from the odd handshake). In addition, rugby is a sport where serious injury is likely with every tackle, and we saw how the English player on Saturday broke a less than obvious rule, and could have caused severe injury by his actions. The sin bin was introduced to make taking such dangerous risks less worthwhile for the players in a sport where violent contact is the norm and part of the game.
There is also the fact that footballers are sent off for offences that would barely raise a finger wagging in rugby, so we already have rules in place to prevent, or reduce, dangerous play.
As for the jersey pulling. If we are going to single that out as a sin bin crime, well, it’s already punishable with the most severe penalty within the game – a penalty (or a free kick if outside the box). Are referees going to be any more prepared to blow for jersey pulling if they will then be sending the player to the sin bin than they currently are to give a penalty? It’s not the lack of a sin bin that encourages offences like shirt pulling, it’s the inability of referees to either spot it, or to have the guts to penalise it that has led to the apparent growth of this sneaky offence.
Bringing in the sin bin would only allow poor referees to make our game worse, and increase the effect of ‘honest mistakes’.
Looks like James Doleman won’t be able to live tweet today if the hearing goes ahead.
James Doleman Retweeted ScotRail
Looks like I’m not going to the Court of Session today. Sorry all.James Doleman added,
ScotRailVerified account @ScotRail Given the current weather conditions, we are advising customers not to travel in the Strathclyde area of the country at the moment. @transcotland @trafficscotland @policescotland7 replies1 retweet1 like
ALLYJAMBO
FEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 08:06
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In my opinion the pluses outweigh the negatives.
That is not to say it is a perfect solution, however I consider it to be an improvement on the current position. At least something worth trying.
Can I just pick up on one specific point, the argument that if something cannot be done at every level it shouldn’t be done at all. I have never understood that. Would you suggest removing hawkeye from top level cricket as it is not available at every level, or the similar technology from grand slam tennis for the same reason. That makes no sense to me.
So whilst I appreciate the points you make, overall I agree they are good points, I still think it would improve the game.
As expected,tonights fixtures are cancelled due to weather.
Glasgow Airport is also closed.I assume this means Mr Morelos won’t make it to China to complete his £20m move before the Chinese Transfer window shuts.
StevieBCFebruary 27, 2018 at 20:08
Following the Close Leasing crisis loan, and further inquiries from suppliers with overdue receivables from RIFC/TRFC…It would seem perfectly reasonable for anybody to ask;“Is the Ibrox club/company CURRENT with its VAT and payroll tax deduction payments to HMRC ?”Yes / No ?Would any SMSM ‘journalist’ ever ask such a question on behalf of their customers / current taxpayers?
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I’d imagine that the address in Govan that houses RIFC/TRFC is well flagged up at HMRC, and I’m sure they will not be inclined to allow any football club or business there any leeway, whatsoever, when it comes to monies collected in respect of income tax, national insurance or VAT. I would also imagine that the facility they have just received from Close Brothers will be used, in part, to meet any outstanding monies due to HMRC, hence the desperation that led to the granting of over five million pounds worth of security.
AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 00:25
And turning the refs into a ‘business’ just adds another possibility claims to be made of folk on the take.
If clubs are paying for refs just now what is the cost going to be for bringing if a guy from , say Cyprus? Or will it be a whole squad with the assistants and the fourth official. Add on five hour flight, a few nights hotel accommodation etc etc.
During the week it was reported Dundee Utd are selling there training facility to stay afloat. I am sure they and other clubs are just champing at the bit to pay even more for referees where the potential for mistakes (differing interpretation of the rules from manager & fans) in real time will exist and could still cost a team a result.
Rating and ranking refs doesn’t need to based on a business model, it just needs to be based on common sense, transparency and a will to improve quality.
Chucking cash at a problem isn’t always the answer.
HomunculusFebruary 28, 2018 at 09:33
ALLYJAMBOFEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 08:06=================================In my opinion the pluses outweigh the negatives.That is not to say it is a perfect solution, however I consider it to be an improvement on the current position. At least something worth trying.Can I just pick up on one specific point, the argument that if something cannot be done at every level it shouldn’t be done at all. I have never understood that. Would you suggest removing hawkeye from top level cricket as it is not available at every level, or the similar technology from grand slam tennis for the same reason. That makes no sense to me.So whilst I appreciate the points you make, overall I agree they are good points, I still think it would improve the game.
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Until we can be 100% certain that we will not be seeing an abuse of the sin bin then I can see no positives, but I do see definite negatives.
As I said, players continue to pull jerseys despite knowing that, under the rules, they are committing an offence that should be penalised with a penalty (if carried out in the penalty area) and yet they still do it. They do it because they get away with it, they get away with it because the referees either can’t see it, or choose to ignore it. One reason they probably ignore it is that it is almost impossible for them to determine who it was who first pulled who’s jersey (even television ‘evidence’ doesn’t always show that up), for more often than not, both the attackers and defenders are at it.
I’d like someone to explain to me how it might come about that referees will become better at ‘spotting’ it just because of the introduction of a sin bin. Here’s a clue, they won’t.
I’ll leave it to others to decide whether it’s right to introduce something for the rich that would cripple the finances of the poor, remembering the rules are meant to be the same throughout all levels of the game, and if we think it necessary to use video evidence to adjudge it at one level, it remains the same at all.
Oh, and as this jersey pulling happens most often at corner kicks, and free kicks around ‘the box’, are we going to stop every game, at every corner kick, so the action can be reviewed before the game continues?
Jim White tweets:
Reports this morning that Brendan Rodgers is one of the leading candidates to replace Arsene Wenger @Arsenal this summer. I think it’s the perfect fit. Surely Brendan would literally be wasting his time by staying another year in Scotland? Join the debate from 10 @talkSPORT
Does anyone think he’d be tweeting this if Brendan Rodgers, or any other quality manager, was in charge at Ibrox? He might, of course, bum up a TRFC manager, a la Warburton, for the England manager’s job, if a certain Level instructed him to…oh wait, maybe they have just told him to ‘bum up’ Rodgers!
Anything happening in court today that Level5 might want to deflect from?
ALLYJAMBO
FEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 10:12
I’ll leave it to others to decide whether it’s right to introduce something for the rich that would cripple the finances of the poor, remembering the rules are meant to be the same throughout all levels of the game, and if we think it necessary to use video evidence to adjudge it at one level, it remains the same at all.
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Sorry but that is a totally specious argument, football is not different from any other sport, and I have never heard a reasoned argument to get rid of technology at the top levels of cricket, tennis, rugby or anything else just because it cannot be done at every other level.
As an aside, I don’t believe the blog was just about jersey pulling, at least I didn’t take it that way, I thought that was just an example of the types of offence he was talking about.
It’s just a bit of fun, we are still allowed that, Shirley.
https://www.facebook.com/btsport/?hc_ref=ARQZ9S2ARpIZDR_v_eZ2UQyLqjNjq2kqyNjvI9-Q2vdJBN8HE-UHH4vnT0YAKWAnXyM&fref=nf&hc_location=group
dom16February 27, 2018 at 20:44
For the record yellow cards in rugby can mount up and player receives a ban.
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Not sure that’s true Dom. Two yellows in the same game will get a red but I don’t think yellows carry forward to future games though. Happy to be corrected!
HomunculusFebruary 28, 2018 at 10:22
ALLYJAMBOFEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 10:12I’ll leave it to others to decide whether it’s right to introduce something for the rich that would cripple the finances of the poor, remembering the rules are meant to be the same throughout all levels of the game, and if we think it necessary to use video evidence to adjudge it at one level, it remains the same at all.======================================Sorry but that is a totally specious argument, football is not different from any other sport, and I have never heard a reasoned argument to get rid of technology at the top levels of cricket, tennis, rugby or anything else just because it cannot be done at every other level.As an aside, I don’t believe the blog was just about jersey pulling, at least I didn’t take it that way, I thought that was just an example of the types of offence he was talking about.
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Sorry, I was always of the impression that the rules were the same at all levels, and that football had nothing to do with any other sports, regardless of how these other sports view technology, especially when those other sports constantly stop playing and allow the use of technology to support decisions without interrupting the flow of the game (although many commentators on these sports have complained at the delays taken to make video decisions).
As Jim Craig had used jersey pulling as his example, I continued with that, but I still don’t get the idea that introducing sin bins would cut out offences that are already penalised by something as decisive as a penalty kick. To be honest, I’m not clear whether he was only advocating the sin bin for offences he was not in the habit of making, while not using the sin bin for trying to ‘half a player in two’, but I would suggest jersey pulling, while not very sporting, is less of a ‘crime’ than any tackle that might ‘half a player in two’? So, if it’s only the more serious offences that he advocates sin binning for, then fine, except we still have the problem of dodgy referees, who, instead of just booking a player for a tackle, that may well not have even been a foul, he sends him to the sin bin and presents the opposition with a great opportunity to decide the outcome of the match. That’ll improve the game no end!
One minute on here we are discussing how bad our referees are, the next we are suggesting they should have ever more draconian measures at their whim. Does anyone think that the existence of a sin bin would have made Hugh Dallas a better referee, or his son, or any one of the dozens that have been hated by supporters of all clubs since football began?
ALLYJAMBO
FEBRUARY 28, 2018 at 11:09
Sorry, I was always of the impression that the rules were the same at all levels, and that football had nothing to do with any other sports, regardless of how these other sports view technology, especially when those other sports constantly stop playing and allow the use of technology to support decisions without interrupting the flow of the game (although many commentators on these sports have complained at the delays taken to make video decisions).
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Specifically with regards technology, how does having it make the rules any different.
Of course the rules are the same at all levels, using technology to give the referee assistance in enforcing them doesn’t actually change the rules.
Also, how is using a sin bin “draconian”, it’s anything but.
WOTTPI
Increase the supply by encouraging folk from all walks of life to become referees as their day job and you keep the wages reasonable.
Why go to Cyprus for a ref if you can get a good one from Carlisle?
Re sin-binning: is the premise that certain cautionable offences be punished by a temporary removal, or that all cautionable offences be punished in this manner?
I’m not in favour of either. I’ve seen too many matches where the ref gets card-happy, or a team loses the plot for a time & multiple cautions are imposed in a short period of the match. It would also encourage ‘simulation’ in all areas of the pitch.
Re jersey-pulling: again, the Laws have the solution to this problem. Tell the referee to apply the Laws & tell the players that the referee is going to apply the Laws. Realise that ‘letting the game flow’ & ‘game management’ will suffer in the short term. Realise that players will get pinged wrongly until the problem lessens & players get it into their heads that pulling at an opponent, whether initiating or retaliating, isn’t to the benefit of their team.
There’s been a few mentions of rugby union. They recognised an issue with a certain type of ‘clearing out’ at rucks, called a neck-roll. It was commonplace in every game, at every level. The referees & players were told it had to stop & it was initially refereed out of the game until players recognised that doing it was damaging to their team & they stopped doing it.