A guest blog by former Celtic & Scotland defender, Jim Craig
“What time is this to come back?”
Dolores McCann (her Mother had been a great fan of foreign films) stood in that classic pose of the wounded woman – up to her full height and chin forward – as she glared at her husband who had just come in the front door. Before he could say a word, she gave him another volley;
“you left the house at half-past-two for a three o’clock kick-off, it only takes you 20 minutes to get to the ground, a match lasts only one-and-a-half hours plus ten minutes for the break and you’ve just walked back in the door at half-past-seven! So where the hell were you?”.
Wayne McCann (his father liked Westerns) tried to calm her down.
“Dolores, you don’t know what it’s like at football matches nowadays ; it has changed out of all recognition; a match goes on for much longer”.
“In what way?” Dolores asked.
“Well, for a start, the players and even the managers can complain about any decision that is given against them. If that happens, the referee then goes and has a word with firstly, the two assistant referees, then the fourth official and gets their comments before he reflects on the situation. If he is still in any doubt that he made the wrong decision then he can ask the guy upstairs sitting in front of a television screen what he thinks. And, of course, all through this, the managers and players of both teams can chip in with their comments. That all adds a fair bit of time to the match”.
“Aye…but turning up at half-past-seven is still a bit over the top…is it no’?”
“Well, no’ really……you see, nowadays you are not allowed to have a drawn game, so if the match is level at the full-time whistle, there is extra time, which takes a minimum of half-an-hour”.
“The time is still no’ matching up!”
“Aye, mibbe so, if that was the end of the match. But if the match is still level at the end of extra-time, then it goes to a penalty shoot-out. I told you…you are not allowed a drawn game”.
“ A penalty shoot-out disnae take long”.
“That might have been the case at one time but because so many keepers were being accused of moving before the ball was kicked, nowadays they are strapped in to a harness which anchors them in the middle of the goal. They can only move when the foot of the guy who is taking the penalty actually touches the ball. So, after each kick, the keeper has to be put back into the harness and it all starts again. And, of course, you get the complaints from the managers and players that the harness wasnae working properly or that the officials who put the harness on didnae put it on right. That all adds up to the time factor”.
“Did you go to the pub?”
“As God is my judge, Dolores, after the match finished, I came straight here”.
“Who won anyway?”
“That’s a difficult question… there was so much noise and kerfuffle both on the pitch and in the stands, nobody was quite sure what the final score was. And the guy who usually does the announcing had gone home. Somebody said that he had a date. Anyway, if you let me turn on the radio, I’ll hear the score there. And Dolores?”
“Yes”
Wayne walked over to the drinks cabinet and took out a couple of glasses. “I don’t suppose you would fancy a wee drink”
We will leave the smooth-talking Wayne to his attempts to mollify Dolores and reflect on the situation. What you have just read is probably the ultimate scenario for those who wish to tamper with the current rules of football. Do I think that the game needs radical changes like that? No but I do think that some change is necessary and in one specific circumstance.
Now, I was a professional footballer for 9 years and in all that time, I can put my hand on my heart and state with complete conviction that I never pulled any other player’s jersey. Did I try to half him in two with a tackle, yes! But no jersey-pulling. And, of course, I was penalised for the challenge.
Today, though, I feel that there is a lot of body-checking and jersey-pulling going on in every match. Very often the referee lets it go and then you get the ridiculous scenario at a corner kick when all those waiting for the ball to come in are pulling and pushing, with the referee watching it and ignoring it. It is a foul, ref!
When the referee decides that an offence has been committed, then the player will be spoken to first. If he does it again, he will be given a yellow-card. The problem is, though, that the offence might possibly have affected the play in the match, whereas the yellow card does not affect the player’s participation.
If the player is daft enough to do it again, then of course he gets another yellow and will be off. Most, however, are sensible and keep the head, so they go unpunished as far as the current match is concerned. What we have to find is a punishment that affects the match in which the transgression occurred. Which means that we have to consider the sin bin.
This works very well in rugby and gives the referee a means to punish an offence a little more harshly – yet more efficiently – than a yellow card but without having to go for the ultimate, drastic – and for many unpalatable – option of the red card. I hope it comes in soon.
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 5, 2018 at 21:25
Ally. It’s always difficult to guess King’s intentions but I do think he’ll likely invest further monies into their share issue even though he didn’t want to buy these shares the TOP are about to force him to. My reasoning is that if he fails to do so then the 3 million quids worth of shares he’s about to buy will be immediately diluted and worth even less than they are currently.
As you know I’m far from “supporter or sympathiser” of that club so my view here isn’t emotionally driven it’s merely an educated guess. You may well be right and he could view avoiding dilution as throwing good money after bad, only time will tell.
NickApril 6, 2018 at 08:52
Bryce CurdyI think it’s important to be very careful about repeating malicious internet gossip as fact. Madden has confirmed repeatedly that the Rangers season ticket story was untrue, also the initial story came along with details claiming his father still uses the ticket which is particularly sick given his father is dead.I don’t think the guy is a very good referee, none of them are great in fact but to smear a guy using his dead relative when he’s battling cancer himself is beneath this site in my opinion. It’s often easy to forget when people are built up into pantomime villains online that they are a human being, I’ve attached a link for context, a quick google search will throw up dozens of others.http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/15310455.Getting_to_know_Bobby_M
___________________________________-
Thanks for putting us right on the Madden season ticket rumours and linking in that article in a non-‘Rangers’ facing newspaper, I’m sure it didn’t reach Stewart Fraser’s in-tray via Level5.
The thing is, even though the rumour of him being an Ibrox season ticket holder is raised at the start of the article, there is no quote, or even mention, that he is not a current ST holder (I’ve always thought that extremely unlikely), a former ST holder (possibly), or denial that he is a ‘Rangers’ supporter (after reading that article I am now convinced he is). Strange that, it’s almost as though the thrust of the article was to gain sympathy for the man while giving the impression that just because he gave a bad decision against Aberdeen means he’s not an Aberdeen fan, so can’t be a ‘Rangers’ supporter either.
Now, even if I didn’t know that the SMSM sports reporters are merely PR conduits, particularly for an Ibrox outfit, I still wouldn’t take anything from that article that suggests Bobby Madden isn’t a Rangers/TRFC supporter, but maybe your apparent encyclopaedic knowledge of SMSM articles on those two clubs means you can link us to some other article where Madden, or a PR outlet, categorically denies Madden’s ‘Rangers’ season ticket ownership, past or present, and his leanings towards the clubs that play there, both past and present.
The speed with which you linked us to a year old article, in a paper, I’d imagine, few Hibs supporters are likely to read (I’m sure you told us once you were a Hibs supporter), is mighty impressive.
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 6, 2018 at 09:45
Ally the crux of your point seems to be that now the smear has been made the onus is on Bobby Madden or others to disprove it. That mentality is actually the basis for the “fake news” phenomenon, I’d suggest it would be sensible that if people don’t have evidence the guy is a Rangers season ticket holder they should stop saying as fact that he is. Surely we can agree that is the right and sensible approach particularly when the smears have targeted the guy’s deceased family member?
As for the latter part of your post I confess it raised a chuckle. If your insinuation is I’m not a Hibs fan then please trust me that if I was going to give myself a fake allegiance I’d have picked a somewhat more glamorous side. 🙂 As for the article I googled it as I remembered Madden having to clarify the smear at the time and I confess I felt sympathy for him having read what he was going through.
I’d like to hope and believe that it is possible even in this day and age to hold differing views but politely disagree without accusing people of being “level 5 stooges” or the most heinous crime of all “a TRFC sympathiser”….
NickApril 6, 2018 at 09:24
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 5, 2018 at 21:25Ally. It’s always difficult to guess King’s intentions but I do think he’ll likely invest further monies into their share issue even though he didn’t want to buy these shares the TOP are about to force him to. My reasoning is that if he fails to do so then the 3 million quids worth of shares he’s about to buy will be immediately diluted and worth even less than they are currently.As you know I’m far from “supporter or sympathiser” of that club so my view here isn’t emotionally driven it’s merely an educated guess. You may well be right and he could view avoiding dilution as throwing good money after bad, only time will tell.
______________________
The thing is, going by TRFC’s record of continuous borrowing, should he put further millions into the club, they will only go the same way as all the other millions that have been pumped into the club, millions that have disappeared quicker under King’s watch than they did under Ashley, and perhaps even Green (and much of that loss was syphoned off to Green and his mates). With the possible exception of Celtic, there is not one club in Scotland that has given a return on an investment that could give even the most optimistic investor hope that he might recover the kind of ‘investment’ you think King is about to make in RIFC/TRFC.
I’m not saying King won’t ‘invest’ more money in the club, but, if he does, he will do it knowing he is not going to make a return on it, and will be lucky to see much, if any, of it back, unless he is using RIFC/TRFC as a conduit to get money out of SA and into his own hands in the UK!
As things stand, the only way anyone is going to get any of their money back is either through a sale to some sugar daddy (he’s been in the wings ever since the club was first started, but never shows up), or by the winding up of the club, and the shareholders will get next to zero after all the loans and other creditors are cleared.
Apologies if already posted but came across this interesting breakdown of agents fees paid by Scottish clubs last year. Very restrained and sensible in comparison to the 200+ million that EPL clubs spent.
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/3412/intermediary-transactions-3-february-2017-to-january-2018.pdf
Here’s a wee mischievous thought for everyone’s consideration/mirth.
If King does go ahead with the offer, and is successful
, and then goes over 30% in his own right, would the 3bears be able to formally resign from the concert party/consortium and the board then request the TOP to order King to make an offer for their shares?
I doubt there’s ever been an example of this happening as a result of TOP action, but I’m sure there will have been cases where one member of a consortium has ended up with a shareholding of over the 30% threshold and the other members have decided they want out having lost the power/influence they previously had to protect their investments.
Of course, the TOP might say that, as members of the concert party, they could have joined King in making the offer to the other shareholders, but, on the other hand, King was seen as having gone ‘rogue’, acting against the advice given to him by one of the other members, so the 3bears just might have a case, if they so wish.
As I said, just a wee bit mischief, but it might give King a use for that change he’ll have left over from the offer
Nick & Allyjambo and others
I think everyone is at a loss at what King’s game plan is.
The scenarios extend from a very cunning money making plan to genuinely burning his kids inheritance for the Ibrox cause.
Regardless of where on that scale he sits, the worrying thing for Bears is surely that he doesn’t seem to be taking much interest in the club.
While it is not going ideally on the park look at the way Ann Budge has got stuck in a Hearts and the manner in which she communicates her vision to the fans. Folk are in no doubt with regard to her commitment to the cause.
Similarly after the malaise at Kilmarnock Billy Bowie seems to have hit gold with the Clarke appointment. Now there is a turnaround and genuine improvement.
Meanwhile despite spending money like its going out of fashion T’Rangers under King are currently only four points better of than last season. The lofty aims of consistent domestic and Euro glory still seem a long way off.
There still seems to be a degree of disconnect between the board and the fans and any measures that could be seen by others as improvements (be that on the park or dealing with infrastructure measures) are viewed with a degree of suspicion. Think of the staircase banner issue and the likes.
For the likes of Ashley at Newcastle, the Toon Army don’t care for him much but at least the aim of running a tight and sustainable ship was there for all to see.
Maybe it will work out for them but the general impression down Govan way is one of a rudderless lumbering supertanker adrift at sea.
NickApril 6, 2018 at 09:56
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 6, 2018 at 09:45Ally the crux of your point seems to be that now the smear has been made the onus is on Bobby Madden or others to disprove it. That mentality is actually the basis for the “fake news” phenomenon, I’d suggest it would be sensible that if people don’t have evidence the guy is a Rangers season ticket holder they should stop saying as fact that he is. Surely we can agree that is the right and sensible approach particularly when the smears have targeted the guy’s deceased family member?As for the latter part of your post I confess it raised a chuckle. If your insinuation is I’m not a Hibs fan then please trust me that if I was going to give myself a fake allegiance I’d have picked a somewhat more glamorous side. ? As for the article I googled it as I remembered Madden having to clarify the smear at the time and I confess I felt sympathy for him having read what he was going through.I’d like to hope and believe that it is possible even in this day and age to hold differing views but politely disagree without accusing people of being “level 5 stooges” or the most heinous crime of all “a TRFC sympathiser”….
__________________-
The crux of my point is that the link you gave as evidence that Bobby Madden was not a season ticket holder at Ibrox was to an article in which he did not deny that he is. Fair enough, he doesn’t need to tell the world what team he supports, or what season tickets he has, or doesn’t have, though perhaps he, and all referees, should, but he has given this interview, in which the claims that he is a current season ticket holder at Ibrox is the main, and leading, point, and yet he neither confirms this nor denies it. There is only one conclusion to be drawn from this, and it’s not the one you have drawn.
As far as I am aware, you are the only one on SFM who has mentioned his father, and even the article shows no evidence that anyone has targeted smears at his deceased family member, unless calling him a ‘Rangers’ supporter/season ticket holder constitutes a smear. What’s more, whatever the point some internet poster was making when referring to Madden’s father was, he was surely unaware that the poor man was deceased.
That article is rather poorly put together, starts out as though it’s going to blow apart the claims that Madden is an Ibrox season ticket holder (I’m sure that’s what gave you the impression it was a good link to make your point), but doesn’t come close to it, then goes on to make out that because he’s had some misfortune in his life (serious and sad, though it is) he’s a good referee. I am surprised it would stick in anyone’s mind, other than as some sort of evidence that TRFC are not favoured by referees, and who would be so desperate to do that, and so quickly after a post is made suggesting Madden is a season ticket holder at Ibrox?
As to whether or not you are a Hibs supporter, well you have made a number of posts that declare the opposite of what we believe here, and have provided zero evidence to back them up. This latest is a case in point, for you’ve shown no evidence that Bobby Madden is not, or never has been, an Ibrox season ticket holder, but seem determined to argue your point. Similarly you make the point that things are much rosier at Ibrox than we believe them to be, but fail to give any evidence to back up what you claim, completely ignoring the evidence of the club accounts. That is very similar to the style of any number of posters who’ve come on here, many having been open about their ‘Rangers’ allegiance, but a number have claimed otherwise.
As far as I’m concerned, Hibs supporters don’t remember insipid articles defending referees of bias towards Rangers or TRFC, and they certainly don’t rush to link them when a Celtic supporter refers to a referee supporting TRFC. I certainly don’t believe a Hibs supporter would read that article and see anything in it that suggests Bobby Madden isn’t a ‘Rangers’ supporter and has never been a season ticket holder at Ibrox, because there’s nothing in it that suggests he’s not!
wottpiApril 6, 2018 at 11:04
Nick & Allyjambo and othersI think everyone is at a loss at what King’s game plan is…
________________
I think you are right, WOTTPI, but would add that it’s also unclear whether or not King actually has a plan, or is not making up new plans with each turn of events. I’m sure, though, that whatever his original plan was, that it has been amended so often that it is no longer relevant, or, at least, that it’s original target and/or time scale is no longer achievable.
Allyjambo
We’re sort of going round in circles here. I believe it is wholly wrong to say as if fact that the guy is a Rangers season ticket holder or was one when there is no evidence this is the case. The onus is on those making that claim to prove he is and not on others to disprove it. If things worked like that I could tell you that Ann Budge is a drug dealer FACT and if you can’t disprove it then I win the argument.(Dear Ann, if you’re looking in I would never accuse you of such behaviour and I think you’re on balance probably a good egg with poor taste in football teams).
As for your general disbelief that I’m a Hibs fan I’m not really sure what I can do to appease that concern, there are several thousand of us out there you know? My son is on holiday in May, perhaps you can take his ticket and join me for a game so you can experience the battle for European places? 😉
In all seriousness I do hold different views from many posters on here regarding many topics, I also hold similar views to yourself and other posters on other topics and often post in agreement. One thing I always do (perhaps naively) is take at face value that everyone on here is a genuine football fan who wants what’s best for the game. Lets face it on emotive topics there will always be a divergence of opinions.
With that in mind I always try to post respectfully and politely. I’d like to continue in that vein and retreat from what I fear could degenerate into a bit of a tit for tat here.
NickApril 6, 2018 at 12:07
AllyjamboWe’re sort of going round in circles here. I believe it is wholly wrong to say as if fact that the guy is a Rangers season ticket holder or was one when there is no evidence this is the case. The onus is on those making that claim to prove he is and not on others to disprove it. If things worked like that I could tell you that Ann Budge is a drug dealer FACT and if you can’t disprove it then I win the argument.(Dear Ann, if you’re looking in I would never accuse you of such behaviour and I think you’re on balance probably a good egg with poor taste in football teams).As for your general disbelief that I’m a Hibs fan I’m not really sure what I can do to appease that concern, there are several thousand of us out there you know? My son is on holiday in May, perhaps you can take his ticket and join me for a game so you can experience the battle for European places? ?In all seriousness I do hold different views from many posters on here regarding many topics, I also hold similar views to yourself and other posters on other topics and often post in agreement. One thing I always do (perhaps naively) is take at face value that everyone on here is a genuine football fan who wants what’s best for the game. Lets face it on emotive topics there will always be a divergence of opinions.With that in mind I always try to post respectfully and politely. I’d like to continue in that vein and retreat from what I fear could degenerate into a bit of a tit for tat here.
________________________
I would have agreed with you that there is no evidence, until I read that article in which his possible ‘Rangersness’ is raised, but no effort is made to deny it, or to explain it away. I cannot imagine any supporter, of any club other than TRFC, reading that and thinking it somehow discredits the claims he is an Ibrox season ticket holder, for the only way it could read like that is with a healthy dollop of wishful thinking. As with so many media articles nowadays, and sadly in more serious matters than football, it is what is not said, or addressed, that tells us most.
Ann Budge may well be a drug dealer, for all I know, but don’t you think if it was raised in an interview with her she’d categorically deny it? And if it wasn’t raised in the interview, but was alluded to as claims by rival supporters in an article covering an interview with her, that she would ensure that it was retracted, or explained fully that it was only rumours that she strongly denies?
Of course, it is a bad analogy, to compare drug dealing with what football team someone supports, and Ann Budge would feel under much more pressure to ensure the record was put straight and maybe even sue the publisher, but Madden was given an opportunity to put the record straight, and didn’t use it, he didn’t even try the old Airdrie or St Mirren one.
Unlike your Ann Budge scenario, no one was accusing him of a crime, and he could quite simply have admitted to whatever club he supports, assuring us all that he has eschewed all support for them since becoming a referee. As I say, though, it’s what isn’t said that can often tell us so much.
ALLYJAMBO
APRIL 6, 2018 at 11:58
I think you are right, WOTTPI, but would add that it’s also unclear whether or not King actually has a plan, or is not making up new plans with each turn of events. I’m sure, though, that whatever his original plan was, that it has been amended so often that it is no longer relevant, or, at least, that it’s original target and/or time scale is no longer achievable.
—————————————————————
What’s astonishing is that DCK continues to ‘wing’ it, despite having the business resources to obtain good, sensible advice in Scotland or South Africa.
Either:
He has decided that he is the most-real of RRM & is prepared to burn £25m & upwards of his & his family’s money to return TRFC (and the holding company) to where they belong in his mind & the minds of their followers –
or:
He is a pawn in someone else’s game. What that game is & how it will end? No idea!
I know some Ross County supporters who aren’t happy that Bobby Madden is officiating at their game against Hibs tomorrow. My initial reaction to that was that if they thought he was Rangers facing, then they should actually be pleased because in that case, he wouldn’t be doing Hibs any favours! Their perception is that he is one of a number of referees who would be pleased to see the back of them because they don’t care for travelling to Dingwall. Different supporters, different bias perceptions?
Regarding the Bobby Madden debate, I personally think that, at worst, our referees and assistants display varying degrees of incompetence rather than demonstrating obvious partiality towards one specific team, despite the frankly ludicrous accusations of one particularly paranoid blogger with a rather fertile imagination and a propensity for calling Mr Madden a rabid bigot.
There is a clamour for our officials to declare their club allegiances so that they may not officiate at matches involving their favourites. Only in Scotland would this not only mean Mr Madden, for example, not taking charge of a Rangers match, assuming of course he genuinely is a Rangers fan, but not taking charge of a Celtic match either. An official’s ability to make the right call is more important to me than who he supports.
There are far more important matters that FIFA should be looking to address (quite aside from the major governance issues in Scotland) and they could do worse than retraining our match officials on how to deal with the widespread and exponentially increasing levels of simulation and penalty box wrestling following corners and free kicks. Both problems could be easily eradicated in one fell swoop if those at the top of our game had the gumption to order referees over a prolonged period to award penalties in every single instance of shirt-grabbing. Defenders would very quickly learn not to grapple in the box and we would see an increase in the number of goals scored into the bargain.
FIFA has traditionally introduced such purges and other innovations during World Cups, so it would be nice to think we’ll see progress in the summer, though I won’t hold my breath. If they did so, they’d need to ensure the effect was permanent, because there’s increasing evidence of players going unpunished for kicking and throwing the ball away again, a matter that was addressed in a previous purge.
WOTTPIAPRIL 6, 2018 at 11:04
Regardless of where on that scale he sits, the worrying thing for Bears is surely that he doesn’t seem to be taking much interest in the club.
——————
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chairman-dave-king-more-11967559
Dave King now plans to spend one week per month in Glasgow after deciding to be more hands-on in his role as Rangers chairman.
The Ibrox chief has been heavily criticised in some quarters for being based in South Africa for most of the Scottish Premiership season.
Previously, King has been in Johannesburg for the majority of the time – leaving managing director Stewart Robertson to the day-to-day running of the club.
———–
A lot of jetting in to be more hands on.And who is paying for it?
Laird King will thus doubtless welcome the news brought by Phil that the TOP are looking for immediate action on the share offer. He’ll be keen to get on quickly with this over-investment lark…….
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/04/06/not-good-enough-dave/
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
Why in the name of goodness would the chairman of the PLC holding company need to be more “hands on”. How often does actually need to be involved in a decision making process.
The board of the PLC would need to meet something like 5 or 6 times a year surely and for a few hours at a time to make strategic decisions on the way forward. With the board and employees of the football club running it on a daily basis.
Maybe that’s their problem, someone who doesn’t know how to run a football club running a football club. Is it not Stuart Robertson who should be “hands on”.
Nick
A person’s illness should never be used as you say it has been with regard to Madden. I agree. That’s why I was appalled that the MSSM and the SFA used Madden’s cancer in exactly that way. An article appeared in the DR informing us of his health issues and 24 hours later, by pyoor coincidence, the SFA announced he was getting the Scottish Cup Final. The decision caused a storm amongst Celtic fans who were then accused, by people like your good self, of attacking a man who had cancer. Job done! Celtic fans had every reason to criticise that particular appointment. Long before Maddens disgraceful performance at Celtic Park v Sevco, he had a history of blatant bias against the hoops, all there to view on YouTube ?
His appointment stinks.
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:26
Why in the name of goodness would the chairman of the PLC holding company need to be more “hands on”. How often does actually need to be involved in a decision making process.
——————
4 FEB 2018
Me thinks he was in Scotland not to be more hands on but to see about other business.The more hands on i believe was just a cover story and not the real reason he had jetted in.
Just my thoughts. Someone may add other reasons why Mr king was in Scotland on 4 FEB 2018
CLUSTER ONE
APRIL 6, 2018 at 19:38
============================
Or, the season ticket renewals are out on Monday and the messianic genius businessman becoming more hands on and taking them “back to where they belong” is the best “feelgood” story they could come up with to sell said tickets.
To be fair they are struggling a bit on that front, sitting third in the league with an in-form Hibs hot on their heels.
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:45
Or, the season ticket renewals are out on Monday
————–
I wonder if there is an increase on price?
CLUSTER ONEAPRIL 6, 2018 at 18:45
WOTTPIAPRIL 6, 2018 at 11:04
Regardless of where on that scale he sits, the worrying thing for Bears is surely that he doesn’t seem to be taking much interest in the club.——————https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-chairman-dave-king-more-11967559Dave King now plans to spend one week per month in Glasgow after deciding to be more hands-on in his role as Rangers chairman.The Ibrox chief has been heavily criticised in some quarters for being based in South Africa for most of the Scottish Premiership season.Previously, King has been in Johannesburg for the majority of the time – leaving managing director Stewart Robertson to the day-to-day running of the club.———–A lot of jetting in to be more hands on.And who is paying for it?
___________
Isn’t there a limit to the number of days per year that a non-resident can spend in the UK and remain exempt from UK income tax liability?
Silly me, Dave King and income tax…
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:26
Why in the name of goodness would the chairman of the PLC holding company need to be more “hands on”. How often does actually need to be involved in a decision making process.
The board of the PLC would need to meet something like 5 or 6 times a year surely and for a few hours at a time to make strategic decisions on the way forward. With the board and employees of the football club running it on a daily basis.
Maybe that’s their problem, someone who doesn’t know how to run a football club running a football club. Is it not Stuart Robertson who should be “hands on”.
__________
It’s no more than a feel good puff piece for bears who don’t like to think too long and hard about such matters. They’ve been moaning that he doesn’t attend enough matches to show he’s all that interested in the club, not that they think his presence in and around Ibrox will make them a better team. But it will have a short term effect only in terms of deflecting from the real issues at the club…especially if PMGB’s information is accurate!
Regarding the Bobby Madden appointment , I have a comment on the naughty step ( I think because of the copy-and-paste stuff from another site ) but , regardless if the poor man has cancer or not , he is a piss-poor referee . I’ve watched his performances at Firhill and he appears to be in the Tiny Wharton mindset , who run the game the way they see fit regardless of the rules . He would be incompetent , in my opinion , even if he had a Partick Thistle ST , but I don’t think he is conflicted . It just shows the dearth of talent throughout Scottish football , due to the maladministration and misgovernance of the clique/cabal in control .
CLUSTER ONEAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:55
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:45Or, the season ticket renewals are out on Monday————–I wonder if there is an increase on price?
___________
To cover the additional ‘jetting in’ costs?
Is the King at the Masters with Gary Player picture current? My last recollection of their relationship was that they were on opposite sides of rather acrimonious litigation.
The blog talks about sinbins on the Rigby Union Model. Other lessons might be learned there. There is a lot of concern over concussions and hits to the head which was dealt with by changing rules and dealing with offenders by using Red Cards. that has changed behaviour and that change is likely to be permanent. This is facilitated by the liberal use of video officials when available. In the case of rugby the video adds to the spectacle. Perhaps more important, the referees are miked up for public consumption- I wonder how much that would effect behaviour in football if what passed between Referees and Players was heard by all. There was a famous incident in an English Final when Dylan Hartley was sent off for swearing twice at or about the Referee twice in under one minute.
I know that there are cultural differences in how Referees are to be treated by players and who talks to them but miking up referees might be worth trying.
Playing Rugby did me no harm obviously disregarding the fractured skull and permanently damaged or the wobbly nose…
So according to Phil Mac Laird promising to “ring fence” the money to pay for shares if required is not good enough and the trust will have to transfer the money into an escrow account.
Oh and the “independent directors” confirming said ring fencing will not satisfy them either.
That will be very interesting, if it is true. It looks awfully like them calling his bluff. Perhaps they have decided to act on his impecunious dis-ingenuousness, even if the Court of Session have decided not to take him or his QC* to task.
*For the record, no matter what anyone tells you, Neil Davidson (Baron Davidson of Glen Cova) has never been the Lord Advocate. He was previously the Advocate General for Scotland. It is an entirely different job with entirely different responsibilities and entirely different master. The Advocate General for Scotland acts for the Westminster Government in relation to matters of Scots Law. The post has only existed since the early nineties. The position of Lord Advocate has existed for a substantially longer period.
And how come the EPL can have a Manchester derby that might confirm City as champions and we have to fanny about worrying if we might offend folk by having a Glasgow equivalent ?
My (alleged) future son-in-law has informed me that there is an expectation of a large rise , mibbes even 10% , in the price of ST’s at Ibrox next season . Any TRFC guys in the know ?
CLUSTER ONEAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:38
1
0 Rate This
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 19:26Why in the name of goodness would the chairman of the PLC holding company need to be more “hands on”. How often does actually need to be involved in a decision making process. ——————4 FEB 2018Me thinks he was in Scotland not to be more hands on but to see about other business.The more hands on i believe was just a cover story and not the real reason he had jetted in.Just my thoughts. Someone may add other reasons why Mr king was in Scotland on 4 FEB 2018
————————
4th feb 2018 the same time as morelos chinese bid.And the close brothers deal i believe.
from Phil
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/02/04/a-fantasy-that-must-not-be-challenged/
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 6, 2018 at 20:12
Isn’t there a limit to the number of days per year that a non-resident can spend in the UK and remain exempt from UK income tax liability?
Silly me, Dave King and income tax…
————-
I have it written down somewhere,80 days i think if i remember
Cluster OneApril 6, 2018 at 21:09
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 6, 2018 at 20:12 Isn’t there a limit to the number of days per year that a non-resident can spend in the UK and remain exempt from UK income tax liability? Silly me, Dave King and income tax… ————- I have it written down somewhere,80 days i think if i remember
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
90.
So one working week a month is 60 days and if he’s out of the country by Friday midnight that won’t count and will bring it down to 48.
BOGS DOLLOXAPRIL 6, 2018 at 21:39
—————
From long ago.But i wish i had read your post first as it would have saved me looking
CLUSTER ONEAPRIL 6, 2018 at 21:09
ALLYJAMBOAPRIL 6, 2018 at 20:12Isn’t there a limit to the number of days per year that a non-resident can spend in the UK and remain exempt from UK income tax liability?Silly me, Dave King and income tax…————-I have it written down somewhere,80 days i think if i remember
_________
Oh well, it must be true. No holding them back now, be scared Celtic, be very scared
Thanks for all replies
HomunculusApril 6, 2018 at 20:42
‘…. Laird promising to “ring fence” the money to pay for shares if required is not good enough and the trust will have to transfer the money into an escrow account.’
___________________
I take from that that the Takeover Panel believes that King would not be able to find an underwriter for the offer :possibly because they have quietly but effectively already given him the ‘cold shoulder’ and know that his chances of getting any financial body in the whole wide world to sort of guarantee that he can pay for any shares that people are prepared to sell to him are negligible.
The ToP want to see that would-be sellers will be able to get their money.
What we , or rather, I, don’t know is the date by which the money is to be in an escrow account.
The assumption has to be, I suppose, that ToP would not stipulate a date earlier than the date on which King receives the dividends from the sale of NOSA, which is what? 24th or so of this month?
If they require the money to be lodged before then, they would really be playing ( rightly, in my opinion) hard-ball.
I hope that is the case.
Because if King could not do it, they’d report the non-compliance to the Court and have him done for contempt in failing to comply with a court order, and possibly for additional contempt in trying falsely to claim ‘impecuniosity’
And it would be impossible for King to go to Court and argue that he should be given more time to raise the funds.
But the ToP probably does not want to get the bammy jastard, as long as the shareholders are treated fairly.
The fact that there might have been an intention to stiff them is to them maybe neither here nor there.
John ClarkApril 6, 2018 at 22:54
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My understanding is that to comply with the rules the money should be in a UK escrow account now. Not ring fenced by a trust in South Africa/Or LalaLand.
King has already breached the order of the Court of Session.
PADDY MALARKEYAPRIL 6, 2018 at 20:42
And how come the EPL can have a Manchester derby that might confirm City as champions and we have to fanny about worrying if we might offend folk by having a Glasgow equivalent ?
=================
The English football authorities will not allow a fan of either club to Referee the game. That is an absolute fact. Presumably because their Referees are not made of the same moral fibre as Scottish Referees.
Bogs DolloxApril 6, 2018 at 23:24
‘..My understanding is that to comply with the rules the money should be in a UK escrow account now.
___________
I do hope you are right!
[I don’t know about anybody else, but I take the whole cheating and lying of SDM, CW, CG, DK and the SFA very personally.
It’s not an abstract , up in the air,thing: the bast.rds lied to ME, and cheated ME, a football supporter.
And the bast.rds in the SMSM , in defending or denying that cheating , acted against ME, a stalwart defender of the concept of a free press!
And, of course, they all acted against the Truth-and against Sporting Integrity – knowingly and deliberately]
It was something I wondered about, all this explanation about where the money was coming from, and talk of ring-fencing the money rather than it being passed to a UK bank in escrow. It all seemed like a con artist’s flim flam, to me, lots of unneccessary words, rather than cut and dried ‘the money will be in an account designated by the TOP on 23March’. Something that was also missing from the RIFC statement (though maybe I missed it) was a date that the offer document would be sent out, much more informative than details of how King was funding it, and a deadline for King to meet.
Looking ever more like an offer for shares that was carefully planned to fail, though possibly set up with the intention to comply, but leaving himself room to bail out if his self-interest dictates.
The problem for refs revealing which team they support, and not referee their team, is that messrs Clancy and Collum would have to ref every Rangers game between them.?
JOHN CLARKAPRIL 7, 2018 at 00:12
Bogs DolloxApril 6, 2018 at 23:24‘..My understanding is that to comply with the rules the money should be in a UK escrow account now. ___________I do hope you are right!
[I don’t know about anybody else, but I take the whole cheating and lying of SDM, CW, CG, DK and the SFA very personally.
It’s not an abstract , up in the air,thing: the bast.rds lied to ME, and cheated ME, a football supporter.
And the bast.rds in the SMSM , in defending or denying that cheating , acted against ME, a stalwart defender of the concept of a free press!
And, of course, they all acted against the Truth-and against Sporting Integrity – knowingly and deliberately]
___________
I stand along side you in that, John.
It makes me sick in my heart to think that the game I have loved since I was a young lad, that is specifically Scottish football, was cheating me, or that, rather, strong forces within the game were cheating us all and covering it up. That is why I spend so much time on here, in the hope justice is one day served, but, in the event it is not, to at least ensure it is not forgotten.
John ClarkApril 7, 2018 at 00:12I do hope you are right!
[I don’t know about anybody else, but I take the whole cheating and lying of SDM, CW, CG, DK and the SFA very personally.
It’s not an abstract , up in the air,thing: the bast.rds lied to ME, and cheated ME, a football supporter.
And the bast.rds in the SMSM , in defending or denying that cheating , acted against ME, a stalwart defender of the concept of a free press!
And, of course, they all acted against the Truth-and against Sporting Integrity – knowingly and deliberately]
I also agree with you JC and its why i look in to the late great random thoughts to remind myself this fight goes to the wire.
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/south-africas-tax-authorities-v-dave-king-now-in-the-high-court-in-london/
Ally, Bigboab, I’m in a hellish mood to post a maudlin song. Ok, maybe not utube knows all my favourites. Ill go on to my forum. Love you all and miss you. Take care.
Lots of thumbs down Jimbo seems some don’t appreciate you which is a shame seems sad.You can bet that 99% of thumb downers don’t even make a post.
UPTHEHOOPSAPRIL 6, 2018 at 23:56
“You have the same moral fibre as a Scottish referee” is goin to be my new insult
SHUG
APRIL 7, 2018 at 10:54
================================
Or people aren’t interested and feel that he should post this stuff in the off topic section set up specifically for it.
Whether they themselves post or not is irrelevant, they probably come here to read about Scottish football and the issues surrounding it. Not to look at youtube videos which they could access themselves if they wanted to.
Now I’m as much pissed off with all those plastic Man United supporters as I am with glory hunters of any high profile club, but I’ve just come across a tweet by Soccer AM showing a video of a United fan who doesn’t know who George Best was. Either an amazing pick from the thousands heading towards a game – clearly not today’s, (she was showing fans a photo of Best on her phone and asking if they knew who it was, so it didn’t just come up in conversation), or it’s a set up. Not only does he sound a little bit over the top in his ignorance, when the interview finishes, he heads off in the opposite direction to the one all the other fans are taking!
I’m sure there are Man United supporters, the world over, who don’t know who George Best was, but it’s some pick to choose the one in the crowd who fits the bill for a mickey take, so perfectly! It even ends with him, when asked if he’d heard of George Best, saying, ‘Yeh, played for England!’.
It’s really nothing to be bothered about, showing up the United support in this way, if it is genuine, but if it’s not, just one more example of why we should mistrust the media; but if it is, then it’s another example of effects of the disservice the media have given us in recent years.
Plastic supporters brought to you by plastic sports reporters!
Hope this link works.
https://twitter.com/SoccerAM/status/982188664657731584
JOHN CLARKAPRIL 7, 2018 at 00:12Bogs DolloxApril 6, 2018 at 23:24‘..My understanding is that to comply with the rules the money should be in a UK escrow account now. ___________I do hope you are right![I don’t know about anybody else, but I take the whole cheating and lying of SDM, CW, CG, DK and the SFA very personally.It’s not an abstract , up in the air,thing: the bast.rds lied to ME, and cheated ME, a football supporter.And the bast.rds in the SMSM , in defending or denying that cheating , acted against ME, a stalwart defender of the concept of a free press!And, of course, they all acted against the Truth-and against Sporting Integrity – knowingly and deliberately]___________
John and others upset about the cheating. For what it’s worth, it helps me to remember that the LNS judgement on player registration offences for 11 seasons, 500 or more games, 50 or more players, domestic league games and cup ties, European club matches was of course guilty.
Phil’s latest
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2018/04/06/not-good-enough-dave/
SHUGAPRIL 7, 2018 at 10:54================================
Or people aren’t interested and feel that he should post this stuff in the off topic section set up specifically for it.
Whether they themselves post or not is irrelevant, they probably come here to read about Scottish football and the issues surrounding it. Not to look at youtube videos which they could access themselves if they wanted to.
Well when it’s slow then what’s the difference just don’t read it.Yep folk may not be interested but lots of folk are not interested in a lot of stuff I myself skip over stuff that’s boring but would never add to someone’s burden by TD-ING their post that to me just lacks something.
Yes I know it’s a footy blog but we lose nothing by being respectful of others.
shugApril 7, 2018 at 12:36
I agree Shug.
BBC Sportsound openly talking about Rangers playing in Europe next season. Not one single question of whether their financial state actually permits them to. Utterly pathetic. No wonder it is so easy for the SFA to do what it likes.
UPTHEHOOPS
APRIL 7, 2018 at 16:47
===================================
I don’t think there is any doubt Rangers will be playing in Europe next season.
The reason the SFA knows it can do what it likes about that is that it does not expect the team losing out (whoever that may be) to do anything about it.
I can’t understand folk who give thumbs down to showing respect to anyone, no matter what their point is!! If you want to do something, just don’t give thumbs up? I get that you are maybe fed up with comments from them but please be kind.
HOMUNCULUSAPRIL 7, 2018 at 16:56
I don’t think there is any doubt Rangers will be playing in Europe next season.
The reason the SFA knows it can do what it likes about that is that it does not expect the team losing out (whoever that may be) to do anything about it.
=======================
Absolutely. The recent response from Mrs Budge which was posted on here supports that view. I simply do not believe she doesn’t know how much influence the SFA has. Hiding behind ‘it’s UEFA who decides’ is a cop out in my view. Yes, she has a point to an extent, but she should be genuinely concerned what the SFA are telling UEFA. I’m also willing to bet she is also aware of the same e-mail from 2011 that we have all seen, when the SFA were telling Rangers UEFA were a ‘bit busy’ so were unlikely to ask too many questions.
Just a small question if i may.
Has the compliance officer forgot he has to issue a report on the granting of a Uefa licence to #Rangers in 2011?
7 months down the line. i mean fecking hell.
I don’t mind a laugh and a joke but fcuk a pantomine.
CLUSTER ONEAPRIL 7, 2018 at 17:48
Just a small question if i may.Has the compliance officer forgot he has to issue a report on the granting of a Uefa licence to #Rangers in 2011?7 months down the line. i mean fecking hell.I don’t mind a laugh and a joke but fcuk a pantomine.
=========================
I have seen it suggested they may be hoping someone (Celtic?) publicly questions the time being taken then they can claim it is being prejudiced. Nothing would surprise me, and they have the full backing of the MSM so they have no worries about them asking any questions.
“With the possible exception of Celtic, there is not one club in Scotland that has given a return on an investment that could give even the most optimistic investor hope that he might recover the kind of ‘investment’ you think King is about to make in RIFC/TRFC.“
Celtic hasn’t paid a dividend (I think) in the modern (post-McCann) era and the last time there was a share issue I think Desmond underwrote it and ended up owning more that 30% of the shares. He’d warned the authorities this might be the case and got dispensation that if this happened he wouldn’t trigger a takeover demand. Again this shows the King is lying… this time in a bed of his own making!
I remember writing at the time that any institutional investor buying into the NewGers should show their thinking as they were playing with people’s pensions or insurance pots… I stand by that statement and would double down vis a vis any II not taking the 20p on offer.
JEAN7BRODIE
“I can’t understand folk who give thumbs down to showing respect to anyone, no matter what their point is!! If you want to do something, just don’t give thumbs up?”
Two things here Jean: the post in question covered more than “showing respect” – maybe people took more than just that part of the post when thumbs-downing…
Second point surely “if you want to do something” NOT doing something (not thumbs-upping) is surely not an option?
for the avoidance of doubt I haven’t upped or downed the posts in question.
UPTHEHOOPSAPRIL 7, 2018 at 19:13
I have seen it suggested they may be hoping someone (Celtic?) publicly questions the time being taken then they can claim it is being prejudiced.
——————-
After 7 months anyone who questions anyone who questions the time being taken for a report being issued has issues.
As regards the Madden being a former season ticket holder, it’s now 3 years that this suggestion had been doing the rounds – as AllyJambo has indicated, Madden has had ample opportunities to directly refute this suggestion and has not done so. On that basis the balance of probabilities for me is that is it true.
My favourite comment in relation to this was on a Celtic sure “he gave up his ST before oldco died, so technically ok because it’s a different club” LOLZ
JOCKYBHOY
APRIL 7, 2018 at 20:37
Celtic hasn’t paid a dividend (I think) in the modern (post-McCann) era and the last time there was a share issue I think Desmond underwrote it and ended up owning more that 30% of the shares.
======================================
I’m not questioning your post, I have no knowledge on the subject, so forgive me for asking the question.
What makes you think Dermot Desmond had to buy shares having under-written a share issue.
Sorry – was twitter, namecheck Michael mcglaughlin. January 2015.
Feel free to question my post Homonculous, I’m not precious! – I was quoting by from memory but this was the report I remembered…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/4386814.stm
JOCKYBHOY APRIL 7, 2018 at 20:37
Celtic hasn’t paid a dividend (I think) in the modern (post-McCann) era and the last time there was a share issue I think Desmond underwrote it and ended up owning more that 30% of the shares.
======================================
Celtic’s annual accounts show that the club has paid regular dividends (6%) to the holders of Convertible Cumulative Preference Shares (CCPS). Typically, the total amount paid out is over half a million pounds per annum. Dermot Desmond holds just under a third of the CCPS, so has benefited by around £180,000 per annum for the last 20 years or so. I think they started paying dividends around 1997.
There is an option to convert these shares into ordinary shares, and another option to take the dividend in ordinary shares, but as Dermot Desmond’s share total has remained unchanged for a number of years it appears that he has taken his dividend in cash each year.
I know how much we live an “official document” here on TSFM so…
https://www.investegate.co.uk/celtic-plc–ccp-/rns/publication-of-prospectus/200510281729003508T/
to be fair I am not 100% sure DD needed to step in, but either way I believe it wasn’t insti investors buying them…
Thanks for that EasyJambo – those slipped my mind despite the subject being covered as they are being treated as perpetual debt rather than equity dividends. Any thoughts as to why Celtic doesn’t pay down this debt?
https://footballtaxhavens.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/celtic-fcs-9-million-hidden-debt-paying-6-in-perpetuity/
jockybhoy April 7, 2018 at 22:12
Thanks for that EasyJambo – those slipped my mind despite the subject being covered as they are being treated as perpetual debt rather than equity dividends. Any thoughts as to why Celtic doesn’t pay down this debt?
=======================
I don’t know the mechanics of paying off this particular “debt”, but I suspect that it would mean dispensing with a class of shares (CCPS). If that is the case then it might require a special resolution to be passed at the AGM or other GM. That would require a 75% vote in favour of the resolution.
As Dermot Desmond holds in excess of 30% of the club’s shares, then he effectively has a blocking veto against such motions.
If DD doesn’t want to “cash in” then I’d suggest that it is up to other shareholders to put pressure on him to do so in the long term interests of the club, rather than his interests as an individual shareholder.
DD holds 5,131,300 CCPS shares that he “bought” at 60p a share. That was an approx £3.08m investment in the club, for which he has received £3.88m in “dividends” (1997-2017), while retaining the original capital value of his shares, and the right to a 6% dividend in perpetuity.
jockybhoyApril 7, 2018 at 20:37
‘..“With the possible exception of Celtic, there is not one club in Scotland ‘
_______
jockyboy, would you please do me a favour, and cite the post that you are responding to? I have no idea what you are on about!
What is the point you are trying to make?
Are you drawing an equivalence between the debt situation at Celtic plc and the mess that RIFC plc is in?
Are you equating Dermot Desmond with Dave King?
Are you implying that there was/is cheating at Celtic in relation to FFP?
I genuinely cannot tell; my thickness of intellect no doubt, so if you could spell out in simple terms what you mean, I’d appreciate it.
JOCKYBHOY
APRIL 7, 2018 at 22:12
==============================
If you are going to quote that particular site I really have no interest.
Sorry for troubling you for an explanation.
upthehoopsApril 7, 2018 at 19:13
‘….Nothing would surprise me, and they have the full backing of the MSM so they have no worries about them asking any questions.’
____________________________
I have spent a half-hour or so this evening trying to find information on what hoops (!) one has to go through to institute a private prosecution under Scots law.
Because, by dam’, if I had the wherewithal, I’d try to do it , and seek to charge the SFA with a criminal offence.
It is utterly unacceptable that an ‘investigation’ into how a couple of million pounds(at least) were possibly conspiratorially slid , against all the rules, to a financially crippled football club by the very governing body of Scottish Football ,should not have progressed after 7 months-seven months!- to some kind of conclusion.
[Mrs C, who this very minute has just come into the kitchen, has done herself no favours by her caustic remark ” are you on that bloody blog still?”
She is watching some recorded episode of , what is it? Vera? Some polis thingy set in where? the hinterland of Sunderland or Tyneside or wherever.
From what I have seen, someone like Vera would get right in there and nail the matter]
EJ. DD has on at least two occasions, waived his pref share dividend. When he did, the club made a huge thing of it to employees. That’s why I’m pretty sure that silence indicates his acceptance over the last ten years. There was always an option to convert the prefs to ordinary, but DD hasn’t taken up that option, perhaps because the 6% is attractive, or perhaps because doing so may have triggered more ToP regulation – and it may be that the option has now expired.
1/7 in thumbs? Haha – that teach me not to cut and paste without double checking – I was mixing up that Anti-Celtic hatchet site with the respected Swiss Rambler one I think. Mea culpa – shoddy work – only excuses are that i am in Germany for a funeral, it was late and was on the iPhone.
this was what I though I was linking to:
http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/celtic-everythings-gone-green.html?m=1
Jeez am playing catch-up here: John Clark, my quote was from AllyJambo’s post APRIL 6, 2018 at 10:09
I was only trying to point out NO “professional investor” should be looking at Scottish football to put their clients money into… even Celtic, streets ahead of the rest of the league in financial terms, is not worth investing in in terms of financial returns (obviously emotional investment has returns in spades!), both in terms of dividends (and EasyJ’s intervention is accurate but as is a closed investment opportunity, doesn’t affect my point), hence Desmond needing to underwrite a Celtic share issue in the ambience of professional interest.
In this context EVERY professional investor should be asked why they thought the new Ibrox entity was a good investment for their clients’ money and, if they don’t take this 20p offer they should again be asked to justify that thinking…
sorry if that was confused by my adding the n a couple of additional points.