I have been receiving quite a bit of unflattering mail about the “agenda” being pursued on this blog. Depending on the correspondent, that is defined as either denying people their civil right to gloat, hiding the “truth” that people of the RC faith are welcomed and encouraged to come to Ibrox, or indulging in Chamberlain-style appeasement with the banning of the “H” word and other incontrovertible rights-to-insult.
The objection to moderation of any sort appears to be at the root of these diatribes. Our position here in terms of moderation is clear. There is no “agenda” other than a desire not to be chasing up posts containing the rantings and ravings of partisan types who “demand” their right to be heard no matter how objectionable it might be to those hear it. We are not here to service a conduit for conspiracy theories based in Masonic Lodges or the Vatican. There are plenty of places where people can indulge in that kind of stuff, but the moderators here are just not interested. The administration of the site takes around four hours per day. That’s a long time trawling through posts which often set out deliberately to insult, abuse or otherwise cause offence – mildly or otherwise.
Our view is that the blog will only have cross-club support if we stick to what we can substantiate by fact or reasonably infer from the way things proceed. Further, we feel that if we are to gain credibility as an alternative source of news and comment to the MSM, that we need to cut down on the fansite type comments. There is no dignity (a word often used here) in calling the Rangers manager or their fans names. We need to maintain higher standards of impartiality than football fansites, because we know that a united fan base can actually make a difference as RTC did when the SPL chairmen were gearing up for a parachute for the new Rangers. OT discussions are fine, and often amusing, but they shouldn’t become the main reason to come here.
The requirement to have a WordPress account before posting here is not in any way draconian. It is designed to make people accountable for what they post whilst still maintaining anonymity, and therefore being exempt from moderation. Those who don’t like it are not being compelled to carry out any instruction – they only need go to a place where they don’t feel so constrained.
If the main issue of this blog becomes how the blog is being administered – or how the moderation policy is affecting the human rights of posters, we may as well just pack up now.
There have never been any objections to the suggested posting rules on here. We assume that people who post are reasonably intelligent. Therefore it seems fair to assume that those who have ignored the suggested posting rules did so deliberately. If that doesn’t happen, moderation is just not required.
If what we are trying to do fails because of our posting framework, then we will be blamed. We are certain though, that we can have no credibility if we indulge ourselves in conspiracy theories and constant references to anachronistic organisations, the Scottish school system, and the leanings of referees.
There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness. The only thing that matters is that we identify that corruption and help put an end to it.
Our job is to ask questions and not jump to our own conclusions about the answers. That will divide us as surely as the realisation of the depth of the corruption united us. To be totally united as fans, we need to have more Rangers fans on here. Therefore we need to create an atmosphere that they can be comfortable with. Is that the case right now? The anger for RFC’s mismanagement and abuse of the game in Scotland is real, but we need to look forward if we are truly committed to ensuring that what happened to Rangers can’t happen again.
We’re not gonna throw the toys out of the pram here. If anyone else would like to run the blog under those circumstances of zero moderation, we will be happy to hand over the domain. There is no “agenda” – we will be happy to hand the work over to others.
The initial posting which proposed the change to WordPress logins received over 130 TUs and only three TDs. Subsequently the post advising of the changes got around 100 TUs and 100 TDs. It seems that minds are not entirely made up.
To get some closure on this once and for all, we have added a poll below to end on Saturday at 1700 where you can decide whether you want to go along with our original plan in terms of login and moderation. We obviously recommend that you vote “Yes”
Guys,
Please keep expressions of delight/disgust at tonight’s result away from here. Already, I’ve had to remove posts which are nothing to do with this blog. Of course there may be a valid discussion about what tonight means for the ongoing processes, but please, no partisan blah-de-blahs.
Hats off to the Rangers team tonight. They have certainly stepped up on the performance against QOS and other games in SFL3.
Motherwell have been absolutely dire tonight. Cannot pass the ball, wrong tactics (even after Queen of the South showed them the way) and no self-belief. I do not think that they “laid down” but come on: at corners, there is only one Sevco player they need to mark and they gave him a free header …
Regarding possible legal action by shareholders: regardless of the rights or wrongs, this is never going to happen. The creditors had a better case and none of them wanted to rock the boat.
Off-topic, but I wanted to mark the passing of an old friend. Now that the analogue television signal has been switched off, there will be no more teletext, no more accessing pages 321 & 322 for the latest scores, waiting for them to slowly refresh … Ah, happy days!
Got to hand it to fans at ibrokes for turning up in numbers, old chick young reckons there was 40K there but official records say it’s 29k. Surely there would be no under recording of figures! Got to say good turn up by Well fans unfortunately their team didn’t turn up. To be shown up by a bunch of boys you have got to question their credentials as possible top 3 finish SPL team. Didn’t show any mental strength or fight which is likely why they were out of Europe so early. Strange seeing all these pluckie faced youngster in Rangers team but they got the result that matters.
No names on shirts, is this a money saving exercise ?
Not wanting to get involved in football opinion here, because it is far too subjective, but is it possible that Motherwell were spooked a bit by being the first big team to go to Ibrox since the Termination Event? It’s hardly surprising that from the off, the Rangers players looked more hungry – and possibly with less to lose.
Lots more pressure on Motherwell, and it did backfire a bit.
For Charles Green, it is a great stroke of luck in the run-up to his share issue. He is probably now praying he can avoid Celtic in the draw, because a setback in the next round against them would take tonight’s two steps forward a few more in the reverse direction.
Danish Pastry says:
September 26, 2012 at 20:04
5 3 Rate This
dl2068 says:
September 26, 2012 at 19:05
1 6 Rate This
doontheslope
Hohoho very funny, that’s what I mean , shouldn’t you stick to kds
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Don’t be surprised if that comment gets you banned.
______________________________________________________________
[SFM: He said KDS! ]
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Yes, but it was just another in a long line of inane personal comments that seem designed to provoke the type of partisan arguments you mentioned. And he’s partially succeeded. There’s a point when wind-up merchants need to be shown the door. If the blog gets steered into P&B tit-for-tat nonsense it’ll be the worse for it 😉
anyone know when the draw is for the quarters ?
Danish Pastry says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:24(Edit)
———-
Yes, but it was just another in a long line of inane personal comments that seem designed to provoke the type of partisan arguments you mentioned. And he’s partially succeeded. There’s a point when wind-up merchants need to be shown the door. If the blog gets steered into P&B tit-for-tat nonsense it’ll be the worse for it
___________________________________________________________
I take your point DP, but we’re trying to put off the inevitable. He is just back after a trolling ban and although he can be a bit odd at times, we want to give him a chance to join with the living.
My peelers are eyed 🙂
TSFM
Is refereeing inconsistencies not a issue for monitoring?
Proof that Rangers could have perhaps have saved themelves if they’d cut their coat according to their cloth several years ago – by living within their means and blooding some young players. Most impressive player was Aird, all of 17 and hardly a high earner yet. With the writing on the wall years ago it’s simply incredible that no one seemed to have a grasp of financial reality. It’s almost criminal.
Belief, tactics, fight, workrate and tempo are worked out on the training field and in the dressing room and are instilled by the manager.
How many “crunchers” by lasley tonight.
How many times did higdon bully a defender.
No major shock tonight.
Belief, tactics, workrate, fight and tempo in abundance on saturday no doubt.
Lord Wobbly says:
September 26, 2012 at 19:57
It always amazes me that, of all the clever people amongst the Rangers support, they are lumbered with the likes of the VBs, Dingwall, MacMillan and Graham to represent them.
Is that really the best they can do?
Serious question.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ask yourself this – are they representing something else other than support for a football team and therein I think you will find the answer.
Danish Pastry says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:39
0 0 Rate This
Proof that Rangers could have perhaps have saved themelves if they’d cut their coat according to their cloth several years ago – by living within their means and blooding some young players. Most impressive player was Aird, all of 17 and hardly a high earner yet. With the writing on the wall years ago it’s simply incredible that no one seemed to have a grasp of financial reality. It’s almost criminal.
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i agree entirely, but the problem is (or was, and probably will be again) THE OLD FIRM
the 2 clubs are evenly matched in support and revenue, both have the ability to outspend and beat the rest of the league, their real battle is against each other
Look at Celtic this year – pretty poor results and performances in the league, if rangers were still in the SPL, the pressure would be on Neil Lennon now.
but as they are not, there is no pressure (just now)
I think Celtic have a huge opportunity to cut their cloth – bring through some youngsters, not play guys through the pain barrier driven by the fear of dropping something each week (which would be punished by Rangers)
Celtic have a chance (as do Rangers) to change their model – attract and PLAY the best young scottish players, cut the wage bills and use the money to target genuinely better players. having 5 or 6 genuine quality players in the team rather than 11 average ones and all the youngsters collecting skelfs
How many managers have been beaten by a team 33 places below them?
rab says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:39
Belief, tactics, fight, workrate and tempo are worked out on the training field and in the dressing room and are instilled by the manager.
How many “crunchers” by lasley tonight.
=========================================================================
Rab this is the Diddy Cup – why would Laz collect yet ANOTHER booking. Calm the paranoia big chap.
The fans turned out in good numbers for a Wednesday night with the game on TV.
The better team won, they were much more up for it, and wanted to win which Motherwell didn’t appear to care about.
Fair play to both the support and the team, a deserved victory, and I’m sure break from all of the off-field problems.
andy says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:30
According to the SLC Twitter account, no time or date has been set for the draw and it will be announced shortly.
Games are at the end of October though so probably will be before then. Seems a wee bit odd that it wouldn’t be scheduled, unless they were expecting a cancellation or two due to the current deluge of rain.
patnajoe says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:34(Edit)
TSFM
Is refereeing inconsistencies not a issue for monitoring?
________________________________________________
No they isn’t
RFC well deserved winners, probably fans will be dancing on the ceiling tonight.
Unfortunately. I now have to wait till 14th December to join them. Get well soon Lionel!
Bogsdollox.
Lasley commited more fouls in one game against Celtic than the entire motherwell team did against rangers a season or so ago.
My point is not so much about lasley and more about mccalls inability to fire up a team to play rangers.
At ibrox: right boys it will be a great atmosphere today and we are playing the biggest team in the country, we need to keep calm and use the ball well when we have it, lets keep it tight for as long as we can and we can open up a bit later in the second half and maybe sneak something. And dont back chat the ref.
A reasonable team talk against better opponents.
At Celtic Park: right men i want you in their faces from the first whistle, show them no respect and snap into tackles. Try and get an early goal and turn the fans against them. They are weak at the back and slow in midfield and if you smash hooper in the first five minutes he chucks it, now get out there and get f#@&!*g intae them. Oh and challenge the ref and appeal everything.
A reasonable team talk against a bigger team.
Mccalls motherwell seem to follow these scripts.
I dont see paranoia, i see thats how the games unfold by and large.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says: –
i agree entirely, but the problem is (or was, and probably will be again) THE OLD FIRM
the 2 clubs are evenly matched in support and revenue, both have the ability to outspend and beat the rest of the league, their real battle is against each other
Look at Celtic this year – pretty poor results and performances in the league, if rangers were still in the SPL, the pressure would be on Neil Lennon now.
but as they are not, there is no pressure (just now)
I think Celtic have a huge opportunity to cut their cloth – bring through some youngsters, not play guys through the pain barrier driven by the fear of dropping something each week (which would be punished by Rangers)
Celtic have a chance (as do Rangers) to change their model – attract and PLAY the best young scottish players, cut the wage bills and use the money to target genuinely better players. having 5 or 6 genuine quality players in the team rather than 11 average ones and all the youngsters collecting skelfs
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed – the pressure is off because one team isn’t ramping it up with money they don’t have (well not in the SPL anyway).
This is a once in a life time opportunity – my money says the SPL/SFA will blow it.
I’m not on to comment on the result tonight.
What I am on to comment about is young scottish players.
Pat Nevin made a comment tonight that we are our own worst enemy as we often do not give younger players a chance.
Tonight young players got their chance and they did not disappoint. It was exhilarating to see the energy skill and ability of those younger players tonight. Granted it may not happen every outing but it was great to see.
In this time of financial hardship across Scottish Football perhaps there will be a lot of
gems unearthed in the years.
rab says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:20
Bogsdollox.
Lasley commited more fouls in one game against Celtic than the entire motherwell team did against rangers a season or so ago.
My point is not so much about lasley and more about mccalls inability to fire up a team to play rangers.
At ibrox: right boys it will be a great atmosphere today and we are playing the biggest team in the country, we need to keep calm and use the ball well when we have it, lets keep it tight for as long as we can and we can open up a bit later in the second half and maybe sneak something. And dont back chat the ref.
A reasonable team talk against better opponents.
At Celtic Park: right men i want you in their faces from the first whistle, show them no respect and snap into tackles. Try and get an early goal and turn the fans against them. They are weak at the back and slow in midfield and if you smash hooper in the first five minutes he chucks it, now get out there and get f#@&!*g intae them. Oh and challenge the ref and appeal everything.
A reasonable team talk against a bigger team.
Mccalls motherwell seem to follow these scripts.
I dont see paranoia, i see thats how the games unfold by and large.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You undersell the Rangers performance tonight – they were up for it. Motherwell never got into their stride because Rangers didn’t let them. Probably because Ally gave them the same team talk you think McCall gives them before Celtic games.
jmaclure says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:27(Edit)
Tonight young players got their chance and they did not disappoint. It was exhilarating to see the energy skill and ability of those younger players tonight. Granted it may not happen every outing but it was great to see.
In this time of financial hardship across Scottish Football perhaps there will be a lot of
gems unearthed in the years.
_____________________________________________________________
Couldn’t agree more. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. My worry though is that if Green’s Rangers survive and prosper, how long will it be before those same kids are consigned to the reserves permanently?
bogsdollox says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:16
campsiejoe says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:10
bogsdollox @ 16:02
Surely good practice would dictate that a potential liability of that size, should merit at the very least, a note in the accounts, along with the advice of the tax expert
In my experience this is what you would normally expect to happen
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Agreed – I have seen listed companies do this and as Oldco was AIM listed one would have expected similar disclosure because it is useful information for shareholders and investors.
————————-
Could it be the case that MIH has in own in house tax department and the auditors were not made aware of the ongoing HMRC investigation. If that’s the case, there could be some MIH tax and accounting “professionals” having sleepless nights.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:52
4 3 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:39
————-
Celtic have a chance (as do Rangers) to change their model – attract and PLAY the best young scottish players, cut the wage bills and use the money to target genuinely better players. having 5 or 6 genuine quality players in the team rather than 11 average ones and all the youngsters collecting skelfs
————
With you on that. From what I’ve seen of CFC this season it’s youngsters that have impressed me most, McGeouch and Watt especially.
I suppose there’s a bit of gambling going on with more expensive purchases, in the hope that they’ll add to the team for the CL and have decent resale value. Seems a bit risky though. Think how many young kids you could bring through for the same investment. Scottish players used to have great transfer value because of the mixture of gallus talent and will to win. They delivered what was on the label. Most these days go down south too soon though.
The OT is not mourned by me. I couldn’t stand it.
TSFM says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:36
0 0 Rate This
jmaclure says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:27(Edit)
Tonight young players got their chance and they did not disappoint. It was exhilarating to see the energy skill and ability of those younger players tonight. Granted it may not happen every outing but it was great to see.
In this time of financial hardship across Scottish Football perhaps there will be a lot of
gems unearthed in the years.
_____________________________________________________________
Couldn’t agree more. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. My worry though is that if Green’s Rangers survive and prosper, how long will it be before those same kids are consigned to the reserves permanently?
_____________________________________________________________
couldn’t disagree more
plenty of scottish youngsters get their chance in the SPL every week at teams like motherwell
they are only getting a chance at RFC just now because they have no other option
as soon as they are able to lay their hands on some money and can sign players again, i expect we’ll see them revert to type
rfc fans won’t accept getting beaten by QOTS and their likes – and that means the youngsters won’t get the chances they need to develop
bogsdollox says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:31(Edit)
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Agree about tonight. However this is why I’d prefer not to have this discussion. It is almost impossible to have a sensible conversation about football in the midst of a Celtic/Rangers thing.
I could have written these posts myself about McCall at half time in preparation for the post-match “analysis”.
People may be aware that McCall has an equally poor record against Celtic, but the fact that he played for Rangers seems to be his defining characteristic for many folk. I’m not arguing on your right to have an opinion, I just don’t want contentious stuff being argued out here.
Please for God’s sake don’t clog up the blog with this stuff.
Bogsdollox.
Can i nip this in the bud.
Trfc played well tonight, deserved the win and showed the hunger and fight that mccoist would have instilled in them before the match. That is pretty much the crux of my point. Teams reflect managers. TSFM has already spoke tonight about fitba chat and i hold my hands up in sparking this wee debate so please let me stop it now by saying i respect your views but hold my own. Thanks.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:41(Edit)
______________________________________
???????
rab says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:43(Edit)
_____________________________________
Thanks Rab, Gentleman as always 🙂
September 26, 2012 at 22:38
Rate This
bogsdollox says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:16
campsiejoe says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:10
bogsdollox @ 16:02
Surely good practice would dictate that a potential liability of that size, should merit at the very least, a note in the accounts, along with the advice of the tax expert
In my experience this is what you would normally expect to happen
=========================================================================
Agreed – I have seen listed companies do this and as Oldco was AIM listed one would have expected similar disclosure because it is useful information for shareholders and investors.
————————-
Could it be the case that MIH has in own in house tax department and the auditors were not made aware of the ongoing HMRC investigation. If that’s the case, there could be some MIH tax and accounting “professionals” having sleepless nights.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=++
It wouldn’t be the first time they put a pig in a poke and lipsticked it up for onward sale and got sued!
TSFM
sorry, my fault.
Was trying to catch up and just noticed HirsutePursuit said something similar at September 26, 2012 at 16:22 .
TSFM says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:36
Couldn’t agree more. Necessity is the mother of invention after all. My worry though is that if Green’s Rangers survive and prosper, how long will it be before those same kids are consigned to the reserves permanently?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
You are correct, the only way Rangers will prosper is blood more kids in the years ahead with a mix of older professionals. Through necessity they have the chance to bring players on, not throw money away on so called foreign superstars.
No matter what team it is, supporters want to see their youngsters prosper.
The jury is out on Green, invest in youth, that is the only way forward.
rab says:
September 26, 2012 at 22:43
Bogsdollox.
Can i nip this in the bud.
Trfc played well tonight, deserved the win and showed the hunger and fight that mccoist would have instilled in them before the match. That is pretty much the crux of my point. Teams reflect managers. TSFM has already spoke tonight about fitba chat and i hold my hands up in sparking this wee debate so please let me stop it now by saying i respect your views but hold my own. Thanks.
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Aye – nae bother.
Lord Wobbly says:
September 26, 2012 at 19:57
13 0
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scapaflow14 says:
September 26, 2012 at 11:1
14 0 Rate This
Oh my god, speechless……
http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/index.php?
option=com_content&view=article&id=285:leadership
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The VBs have a history of backing the wrong horse. Witness their ridiculous seemingly unending support for Craig Whyte.
It always amazes me that, of all the clever people amongst the Rangers support, they are lumbered with the likes of the VBs, Dingwall, MacMillan and Graham to represent them.
Is that really the best they can do?
Serious question.
————————–
I’ve asked the question several times on RTC in particular. Where are the decent RFC fans to take the club forward ? I don’t mean individual fans who on their own can’t change things. I mean someone vaguely high profile who can be a leader. Someone who’ll call for a new approach etc. I’ve never received an answer. Conclusion is there are none. The truly decent ones gave up some time ago. They were the only hope for a ‘new start’.
We’re left now with ‘clever people’ and not so clever people all of whom are apparently willing to support the new creation. Doesn’t bode well for the future.
I gave up coaching during the summer due to time constraints, my lad still plays at u16 level, over the years i have seen some truly outstanding skill ( amonsts the bruisers) and i hope it is a sign of things to come to add to the only real bonus so far this season, and that is the emergence of some real decent prospects from a lot of teams. Kids in this country still love playing football, we need community driven centres that are affordable and accessible, concentrating on touch and movement, precision driven drills, and no blood and snotter soulless 11 aside weans on big pitches. Maybe once the sfa get a finger out and rule definitively, we can then get onto the ways to make sure we mould the talent we have into adults with at least as good a touch as the Belgiums and Serbias of this world.
Free tickets or not, like it or loathe it, 30 going on 40,000 turned out tonight to watch them give ‘arguably the best team in the country’ a lesson in the game. (Not my opinion. AMc’s, C Broons and Angus1983’s).
Nevin talked them up big time post match. AMc could hardly talk for licking his lips. Tomorrow’s rags will be full of it.
Footballing performances apart, the Chasney PR roadshow will be in full swing – and if my next £million depended on it, I’d be doing the same. Honestly, do you blame him?
Let’s compare tomorrow’s coverage to that of CFC’s Champions League performance last week. Or not. What’s the point? If it eats away at me, how must it feel for the honest, hard working chairmen, managers and players across the whole of the Scottish game?
We need to Keep turning the screw. This lot won’t go away. They need to be punished and reminded that nothing can be said to be certain except death and taxes.
Did someone mention the caller who questioned Alex Rae on Clyde1 tonight? (18.50 in)
Rae was quite candid. Described signing for a tax-free EBT loan at the end of the season.
He said the loan had to be paid back. But when the other presenter piped up with “Is it no true to say Alex the loans will never be paid back?”
“In theory that’s the case,” was the reply.
Sevco were pumped up like it was their cup final and motherwell just didnt look any way interested tonight….more importantly and worryingly was the bellowing of the famine song on our tv screens, the sevco support has been revelling in their 3rd division anonymity by diggin out all their old favourites since the start of the season and nothing is said anywhere about this disgraceful behaviour…its exactly this type of defiance that typifies the sevco support and is infact the very thing that will ultimately consign them to the dustbin of history
StevieBC says:
September 26, 2012 at 17:11
wottpi says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:44
scapaflow14 says:
September 26, 2012 at 16:08
CHARLES GREEN has struck a deal to purchase Edmiston House…
“I think we have AGREED IN PRINCIPLE a deal on that. So he has helped the club by coming to an acceptable deal on that and that is very much appreciated.
For most people a deal ain’t done until the cash is in the bank…
===================================================
I thought that myself: so was this ‘deal’ simply a red herring/positive story – spun as being the main purpose for (S)DM and CG meeting ?
So why has (S)DM reappeared now ?
————————————–
I dislike conspiracy theories but could Charles be saying; I’ve seen off the Blue Knights, Brian what’s his name, The Cardigan Group and Der Bomber. I can get Ally to say anything I want him to say and I can get Mr Surrender-No to read my briefing notes to MSM who won’t challenge anything he says.
Can I now have Edmiston House Sir Dave please or you’re next. “Appreciated”
Danish Pastry @ 23:35
I brought it up earlier Rae was very obviously struggling to stick to what he had been told to say re EBT’s ……. Jim dela**** interrupted the caller and stopped his line of questioning….. Guidi was on tonight again too 😉 wonder what he was ‘hoping’ for tonight? This phone-in should be scrapped they go over the same tosh every night and if anyone asks pertinent questions they giggle like wee lassies because they don’t know how to handle the truth!!!
Green was working with D&P behind the scenes long before he announced his appearance.
He is the next part of the Murray-whyte chain. This is long term plan that has gone awry in places but is still kinda on track at the moment, but a few unforseen bampots have caused last minute changes and now the bargaining powers of the various planners have changed. The game has always been a bogey, now its all about ” to the winner, the spoils ”
I think minty was right.
He got duped. Eventually.
Agrajag says:
September 26, 2012 at 19:32
midcalderan says:
September 26, 2012 at 18:53
Agrajag says:
September 26, 2012 at 15:44
scapaflow14 says:
September 26, 2012 at 13:54
davis58 says:
September 26, 2012 at 13:41
“The problem is , from our stance is you are assuming guilt, before we have even been found guilty.”
Actually, HMRC did return a guilty verdict. The reason the FTT is sitting at all, is that RFC appealed the verdict, as they were perfectly entitled to do.
========================
Had Rangers not been in such a precarious financial position they would have had to pay the debt before the appeal was allowed, far less heard. HMRC are taken to be correct, until a tribunal or Court determines otherwise.
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Agree with most of what you’ve said Agrajag but ….
===========================
Payment will be suspended if being forced to pay it would result in an insolvency event. ..
However the default position is that the tax is paid prior to the tribunal. Unless it has changed again.
————————
I responded to you earlier post from memory but having spent a few minutes looking up the current appeals and postponement regulations, I think my view may well be correct.
As regards appeals, HMRC say this: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/complaints-appeals/how-to-appeal/direct-tax.htm#2
As regards postponement applications, HMRC say this: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/complaints-appeals/how-to-appeal/direct-tax.htm#3
Hope I’ve got it right but happy to be proven wrong. Sorry to be challenging your opinion on something that is not crucial to the debate but I thought we should report this correctly.
midcalderan
Charles Green certainly seems to display a penchant for getting exactly what he wants, when he wants, from a certain collection of people. (Whether that be rule breaking, delaying, silencing, threatening etc…)
What has he got on them all, I wonder.
Ally gave his interview tonight and the backdrop said
Respect
Responsibility
Tolerance
Gave me a laugh.:)
Agrajag says:
September 26, 2012 at 19:42
Done a bit of checking, and I think I need to stand corrected.
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Agarjag, I’ve just been catching up – I’m a few hours behind – and just read your latest post. It’s a nil, nil draw.
briggsbhoy says:
September 26, 2012 at 21:21
13 0 Rate This
No names on shirts, is this a money saving exercise ?
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SFL clubs don’t have names on shirts. What they should have is SFL branded numbers. More administrative errors or can Charlie still not get another set of strips with the official numbers on? Are things that bad? Ach, well. It’s only rules, I suppose.
Stifler’s Mom says:
September 26, 2012 at 23:27
‘……We need to Keep turning the screw….’
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We also, however, need to keep balanced.
Our primary objective is, and must remain, to ensure that no team in Scottish football can ever again have such influence as to be able to suborn the Football authorities to the point where they tear up the rule book to accommodate them, while bribing with succulent lamb and the promise of ‘exclusives’ our football- press correspondents, to ensure that they act merely as PR agents for the club and do not step out of line by asking any kind of proper journalistic questions…
We do this by exposing every attempt by owners, directors, establishment figures, political or religious figures, or anybody else, to ignore the rules in order to favour of one club to the detriment of every other club, whatever their reasons for so doing.
And by not buying the newspapers for which the ‘succulent lamb’ brigade write.
We watch with particular interest for evidence of the ‘revolving door’ syndrome, where a series and sequence of personnel in the senior ranks of the footballing authorities have, or have had very close connections with any particular club.
We carefully note how the generality of clubs are treated in terms of the application of the rules compared with any individual club. And note any disparity and lack of evenhandedness.
The destruction of Rangers (and the admittedly vile ethic it seemed to encourage and depend upon) is NOT the issue, no matter how desirable such an outcome might appear to quite a lot of people.
The real issue is corruption in the ranks of those who have executive power, a corruption made worse by the fact that its basis is not merely commercial, but ideological, and reaches into every corner of the Scottish establishment, including BBC Radio Scotland.
doontheslope says:
September 27, 2012 at 00:20
“What has he got on them all, I wonder.”
The record of Campbell Ogilvie EBT payment’s.
A documented? historic timeline of SFA ignorance/complicity ref improper player registrations.
A supplicant media ready to dish the dirt on anyone but The Rangers.
A support willing to riot for the sake of a broken TV.
How’s that for starters?
Bunion
I once posted on RTC during the shredding incident, that surely CW must have had all the paperwork/ammunition he needed about how Rangers had been being run. He knew who did what.
Charles Green is now knocking off each one of them.
Bunion says: September 27, 2012 at 00:34 3 0 Rate Up
doontheslope says: September 27, 2012 at 00:20
“…What has he got on them all, I wonder?”
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…
A support willing to riot for the sake of a broken TV…
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I think we have a winner! 😉
A Rae tonight RE the EBT’s clearly quite shameless I reckon. A loan it was you say king sir, which I don’t have to pay back, and you can make that look legal. Most men are going to agree to this (I would). The games up though drop the charade you were all aware the payments were wages disguised as a loan. Every employee was aware this would never be paid back.
rab says:
September 27, 2012 at 00:11
‘……Green was working with D&P behind the scenes long before he announced his appearance. ..’
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I have been speculating on the reasons why Lord Hodge has not yet delivered his opinion on D&P’s report to him of how they could show that they had not been ‘conflicted’ when appointed as Administrators.
It seems to me entirely possible that he is working towards the conclusion that D&P were in fact ‘conflicted’, and possibly involved in a conspiracy.
But because the consequences of that conclusion are so great, he is taking time, as a true professional, to ensure that he has exhaustively checked and studied all relevant case law and precedent.
He might actually have found that there is no precedent, and that he will have to venture into new legal territory.
For, if D&P were ‘conflicted’, all their actions and decisions as Administrators would fall to be declared null and void.
The sale of the assets to CG would have to be struck down, and the assets returned to the ownership of RFC(IA).
New Administrators would have to be appointed.
And the whole process of Administration re-embarked upon.
Sevco would cease to exist, and Sevco Rangers and so on would be deemed never to have legally existed.
There would be no ‘The Rangers FC Ltd’.
And the whole effing mess caused by that effing benighted club and the effing SFA would be even more impossibly messier.
Can you imagine? Total bloody confusion and shambles.
All caused first ,by the failure of the club to obey the rules, and then by the failure of the authorities to apply the rules.
Lord Hodge will, of course apply the Law, regardless of the consequences.
But he’ll make damned sure that his interpretation of the law is absolutely sound.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/rangers-ebts-the-war-of-words-over-the-spl-investigation-1-2547465
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/mccoist-the-standard-has-now-been-set-for-the-season.18995668
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/scottish-football-needs-refreshing-revitalising-and-radical-reform.18995468
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/green-sir-david-murray-will-help-us-deal-with-ebt-issue.1348691659
Returning to the words of LNS and the notion of consequence and punishment and in addition the scope of the forthcoming investigation – games administered by the SPL.
“… The rules clearly contemplate sanctions upon a club, in distinction to upon the owner or operator. That power must continue to apply, even if the owner at the time of [any] breach of rules has ceased to be a member of the SPL and its undertaking has passed to another owner or operator.”
It has often been commented upon in RTC and TSFM that a team who plays players who are registered outwith the rules will loose 3 points and the game as a consequence – thus if RFC are found to have played players who were not registered correctly the loss of titles is a consequence and not a punishment.
This leads into the important question as to what sanctions could be applied to the club – presumably for competitions over which the SPL have jurisdiction? Suspension, expulsion, fine? It is interesting to note that LNS applied the word sanctions early on in his commentary.
If RFC are found guilty over the use of players in SPL games – at what point will the SFA and UEFA then launch an investigation to establish whether RFC played illegally registered players during competitions run by those authorities?
If [when] the FTTT returns and demonstrates “industrial scale cheating” [words of RTC] clubs who lost to RFC in European competitions will more likely than not demand a investigation from UEFA. However, it is likely that UEFA will step in first.
I do not think it will be log until UEFA take an official interest and begin. Then the consequence and punishment cycle will recommence at another level.
A wee game of what if….
What if the FTTT finds in RFC(IA) favour…
What if LNS finds that they were merely administrative errors, so just move along…
RFC(IA) pays money into the EBT fund —> The EBT fund gives the money to the players.
That makes them third party payments!
And suprise, surprise that isn’t allowed either.
Weescotty says:
September 27, 2012 at 07:33
Would payment from a third-party also introduced the consequence of an illegally fielded player?
Brenda says:
September 27, 2012 at 00:05
I brought it up earlier Rae was very obviously struggling to stick to what he had been told to say re EBT’s …
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oldcobrokemyheartbycheating says:
September 27, 2012 at 01:08
A Rae tonight RE the EBT’s ….
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Rae gave an insight into the nuts and bolts of the process. He said that at the end of the season he applied for a tax-free loan, but that he could have applied at any time during the season. He said he didn’t know if this was a side contract. I wanted to ask if the availability of the wee pile of dosh came out of the blue, or if at the beginnning of the season he was told about or shown some figures as to how much he could borrow? Or was it described to him, initially, as a vague end-of-season bonus?
I suppose the agents must have known for sure. Were they also paid via a tax-free loan?
Danish, There are a lot of Very smart agents out there,there is no way on God’s earth that they did not know what was going on. Can LNS call the agents to give evidence,can they refuse to attend ?.
Listening to last nights SSB Gavin Rae said that the enquiry looking into his oldco team was headed by Lord Nemo,is this the reason why Chuckie has been in talks with Disney?
Does anyone smell fish?
Looks like the John Terry verdict is due today.
Note to football club PR departments – today would be a good day for anyone looking to put out bad news, as the press will ignore it.
Weescotty says:
September 27, 2012 at 07:33
HMRC don’t recognise the trust as being a third party, they still view any monies as being a loan from the employer.
“Loan made by a third party – employee benefit trust
It is not uncommon for a third party, such as an employee benefit trust (EBT), to make a loan to a beneficiary who is also an employee of the employer which is associated with the EBT. It is sometimes suggested that the loan is not an “employment-related loan” (EIM26113) because the definition of that term does not include a loan provided by a third party.
Whilst it is true that the definition includes no reference to a third party loan provider, HMRC does not accept that the loan is not an employment-related loan. The definition of “employment-related loan” includes a loan made by an employee’s employer. As “making” a loan includes “in any way facilitating” a loan, if the employer provides the money to fund the EBT, the employer is regarded as making the loan.
Consequently for the purposes of the loan benefit rules, the EBT is ignored and the loan is treated as made directly by the employer to the employee. It follows that the loan is an employment-related loan.”
On that basis I doubt the football authorities would go down the third party route.
Try the last 2 links. Dont know how the rest came up perhaps my own little senior moment.
stunney says:
September 27, 2012 at 04:19
2 0 Rate This
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/green-sir-david-murray-will-help-us-deal-with-ebt-issue.1348691659
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Is it just me or does Mr Charles Green in fact resemble to an uncanny degree the late Hughie Green – known for such productions as ‘Opportunity Knocks’ and the aptly-named ‘Double Your Money’? Could they by any chance be related?
PS And I mean that most sincerely folks
Am I missing something or was SFA statement not due yesterday evening?
I watched the game last night and thought after new Rangers scored they played well and controlled the game. This situation suits the new Rangers when they are ahead as they then set up a 4-5-1 European formation, their problems lie when they go behind. They certainly deserved victory as it showed they wanted to win the game more.
This brings me to Motherwell. I have watched before when they played the old Rangers and thought their application to the game to be totally different when they played Celtic. This sadly did not change last night. I thought they looked lazy and never really tried to get out of first gear, the defending was terrible (Many players turned their back on the ball) etc.
The main clue was in the tackling, there was none, how many fouls, bookings committed, where was the Lasley trademark, where was the studs down the ankles, where was the tackles from behind when the ball is already away.
Sorry but the proof is in the pudding, I will happily apologise if the crime count is less or the same as last night, when Celtic visit on Saturday
Sorry TSFM for bringing the game up again, but in my opinion it is relevant if a team can just switch on to a different style of tactics depending on who they are playing. Is that not a form of cheating?
Most importantly I feel sorry for Motherwell fans, I thought they deserved more respect from their team.
Any Motherwell fans on the blog please feel free to discuss?
The caller on SSB missed a trick last night
He should have asked Rae if the payments into his EBT were included in his main contract, or were they covered by a separate document
Ah well, maybe next time
john clarke says:
September 27, 2012 at 00:32
Well said, John Clarke, and I’m with you most of the way on that.
I depart with your last paragraph, which seems too definitive as to the cause of a series of terrible decisions. Corruption, either of a commercial or ideological type, is quite a serious charge to make and I have not seen evidence of it.
What I have seen is a pathetic weakness in decision making, a fear of the consequences of doing the simple, obvious, honest thing, and the terrible mess caused by the triangulation involved in reaching decisions that pleased nobody equally.
I don’t see any conspiracy or network of corruption – I just see a bunch of pathetic weak men who are paid to show leadership, who have aimed to merely manage and delay, and have consequently been overwhelmed by the actions of the strong-willed trio who have been in charge of Rangers.
People need to get a grip on here if they think a team (motherwell or any other ) are going to basically “throw” a game because their manager used to play for Rangers.
There are players in every team who used to support Celtic, and as we have found on this and RTC blogs plenty of Scottish fans dont support either of the Glasgow two which would suggest that a good portion of any team is made up of non Rangers fans.
Add to the fact a large portion of their wage will be based on results with probably bonus’s for reaching later rounds of cups, points in league, league position etc. then it makes no sense whatsoever that any player would give less against one club over another.
Motherwells record against Celtic and Rangers is poor, so is every club in the country and thats why up to now for as long as most of us remember(with the odd exception) Celtic and Rangers have finished the seasons first and second in the league and with most of the cups and cup final appearances shared between them.
This Blog is about ALL teams in Scotland and not just about ex rangers players apparently willing to put their and their players livelihoods at risk and also give rangers the gate money from the next tie that their own club would be desperate to get.
Firstly, well done to TRFC last night – despite handshakes, the team were obviously far more up for it than Well. Having said that, what did the latter expect? The lad Aird was very impressive, and the up-and-at-’em display in general must have been exhilirating for a TRFC fan.
However, I couldn’t help feeling that I was watching an older, badder part of Scottish football. Rotten triumphalism, “SPL ha ha ha” chanting, vitriol directed at the away support, Elbows whacking a boy in the face and getting away with it so not getting a red card later, etc.
I’d be quite happy if TRFC never darkened my life again. Still, that’s my opinion.
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Meantime, on a more serious point. What’s with Mr Charles’s attempted rehabilitation of SDM? SDM has been vilified by the bears recently (viz: the “Never forget…” auto-posts that appear on every thread on RM).
To what end is Mr Charles now painting him as a good, helpful guy?
And how long will it take the bears to change their tune and rewrite history to make SDM part of the saviour-squad again?
Why does Mr Charles now need only a singular source of badness in Craig Whyte?