Naming the Rose

Avatar ByTrisidium

Naming the Rose

We spend an inordinate amount of time on this blog arguing about what the re-emergent Rangers should be called. It is a rather circular debate with no way of finding any consensus. The dispute between Rangers (“The Rangerists”) or The Rangers or Sevco (“The Sevconians”) and its claim to be the club that was formed in the 19th century is spurious. Whichever way you look at it, the continuity of the “brand” is undeniable and as long those who wish to keep buying that package are satisfied that the wrapping is authentic – where’s the harm?

The red herring in the argument is that “history” is important. To the average football fan, it is nothing of the kind. As a Celtic fan myself, and a bit of a student of the history of the club, I am constantly dismayed by the Thousand Yard Stare I get from your average Celtic fan who is confronted with the names of people who contributed significantly to the club’s identity. Key figures like Sandy McMahon, Jimmy Delaney, Jimmy McGrory and (God help us) John Thomson rarely elicit recognition.

Modern football fans who live in the instant gratification society of the the WWW and mobile communications may pay lip service to their clubs’ history, but that’s not what gives the modern football fan wears as his badge of honour. That is a commodity often erroneously confused with history – the bragging rights associated with the trophy haul.

The ability to claim that “we have more titles than you” is far more valuable to a supporter than which 19th century attacking centre-back won the Scottish Cup with a last minute header; and the value of said cup wins is heavily weighted in favour of the most recent (save for the honourable exception of the European successes).

The maintenance of that illusion of superiority is crucial if Rangers fans are to believe that their club is still Rangers. Perhaps in time they may even come to fully believe it themselves, but the cataract of column inches devoted to propagating that myth, both from the MSM and from information outlets controlled by Charles Green’s organisation, betrays a lack of total belief by the chief Bear-existentialists. Protesting too much may not be subtle, but that never put off your average fitba’ man either.

The upshot though is this. There is a belief – or at least a hope – amongst Rangerists that the continuity argument holds. They will call the new club Rangers. Fans of other clubs who make up the vast majority of the Sevconian tendency, believe nothing of the kind. They will call it something else.

Many will remind Rangerists that the old club died, and this is factually correct (or at least will be very soon). Rangerists will counter that the Rangers ethos lives on at Ibrox, and despite the worrying overtones (for some) contained in that statement, that is also factually correct.

Rangerists will also point out, as Rangers fans on this blog already have, that the SPL bent over backwards to assist the continuity of the club in order to minimise the financial consequences for Scottish football, and that the SFL too, have agreed that they are the same club.

Why? Simply because Scottish Football thinks it needs to help perpetrate they illusion of continuity to avoid the loss of thousands of paying customers to the game altogether.

So round one has gone to the Rangerists, with the Sevconians pretty much taking an eight-count.

So is the name thing important? I don’t think it is of critical importance. The name in itself doesn’t matter, but to merely agree that everything is as before is to join forces with the MSM, SFA & SPL who have sought to give RFC and their tax theft a pass.

Whatever happens in the future though, the illusion hasn’t worked completely. The Sevconians’ wish to call the new club by a different name was for the purpose of making it synonymous with tax evasion, however the name Rangers now evokes exactly that response. There is now a discernible pause when people mention Rangers. A pause that reflects on the dis-service they did to the country, and to the game of football in Scotland.

Which brings us to the really important point. Throughout this saga rules have been bent. Conflicted individuals, alleged to have been involved in the tax and registration scam and its subsequent cover-up, have remained in positions of authority and power, despite being under a cloud throughout. The media have been complicit, except in rare cases, in allowing the wrong-doing to go unquestioned, actively campaigning for rules not to be applied.

What we have been saying all along is this. Please play the game by the rules, and do not manufacture special cases for the financially powerful.

Call Rangers whatever you wish, but deal with their transgressions appropriately in the spirit of sporting fairness, and within the framework of the existing rules. That is the least – and most – we expect. We don’t ask for much. Just give us back some pride in our sport .

About the author

Avatar

Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

2,065 Comments so far

Avatar

midcalderanPosted on10:52 pm - Oct 17, 2012


wjohnston1 says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 22:48

I listened to part of the Green interview tonight on Scotland Tonight.
He staed quite clearly that he has a valuation, not more than 2 weeks old, of the properties, which I presume comprise Ibrox, Murray park and the Albion training ground. He states that they are now valued at £80 million.
——————–
And that’s where any half-reasonable interviewer would have nailed him. Was the interviewer the guy who used to work for Rangers TV

View Comment

Avatar

pau1mart1nPosted on10:56 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Robert Coyle says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 22:45
0 0 i
Rate This
May have misheard but,

Did charles green just say that ibrox independently valued at £80 million?

yep, and thats down from 100M.

View Comment

Avatar

twopandaPosted on11:03 pm - Oct 17, 2012


john clarke says: at 22:43
midcalderan says: at 22:46

Going to agree and respectfully not agree

CG was not convincing under interrogation. Interesting that hinterland exposed sparse and shallow [s/bites]

Yep I know it’s me, but the youngster pressed home consistent and true – watched carefully

View Comment

Avatar

Danish PastryPosted on11:06 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Whyte sounded almost proud at the end of the interview: Rangers still playing at Ibrox, everyone in a job, Sounded like he felt he’d done his bit and had turned the failing company around. Hate to say it, but after the nonsense we’ve seen from the current lot, Whyte seems the more like-able of the rogues 🙂

Puzzling interview though, as to motive. Maybe he simply sees himself being set up as the patsy and wants to get his side out first?

View Comment

Avatar

iamacantPosted on11:09 pm - Oct 17, 2012


I’ve just read the latest Craig Whyte stories online in the Scotsman, Telegraph, Record, Herald and the Express and not one of them has a journalists name against any of them. Funny that eh? What they scared of I wonder?

As Delia Smith once said “WHERE ARE YA?”

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on11:11 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Nearly choked on my cocoa at the £80m valuation.
FFS Someone needs to sort this out once an for all.
It’s just nae right.

View Comment

Avatar

midcalderanPosted on11:11 pm - Oct 17, 2012


STV website in meltdown

View Comment

Avatar

coineanachantaighePosted on11:11 pm - Oct 17, 2012


“The Scottish Government has a clear locus in the situation, including the preservation of jobs and impact on the local economy and other clubs, the health of the national game in Scotland and the fact that Ibrox stadium is a 2014 Commonwealth Games venue.”
——————————–
Does this mean that the government will pick up the tab for the upgrading that Ibrox requires?

View Comment

Avatar

AgrajagPosted on11:14 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Just watched Jim Traynor on BBC2.

Not only a liar, but a bad liar.

Shameful.

View Comment

Avatar

Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on11:14 pm - Oct 17, 2012


midcalderan says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:11
0 0 Rate This
STV website in meltdown

————————

about what? care to elaborate?

View Comment

Avatar

billyj1Posted on11:15 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Listened to Traynor.
He quite clearly stated, when talking about Oldco (my words) ‘That club,the company is closed’.
There we have it. The club and the company are the same thing. And its dead.
Please could he put that into print.

View Comment

Avatar

midcalderanPosted on11:17 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:14
0 0 Rate This
midcalderan says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:11
0 0 Rate This
STV website in meltdown

————————

about what? care to elaborate?
——————-
No access when I tried. said “be back in a moment”

View Comment

Avatar

rabPosted on11:19 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Paraphrasing jabba.

I gave david murray lots of criticism but ultimately he is not to blame.

Poor show from newsnicht.

View Comment

Avatar

FIFAPosted on11:19 pm - Oct 17, 2012


And another Traynorism ,Craig Whyte was SLIGHTLY correct ,choked on that didnt you Jim.

View Comment

Avatar

Humble PiePosted on11:20 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Did you see Jabba take his glasses off just prior to being asked the first question and then proceed to fiddle with them throughout the interview. He had no papers in front of him so I presume that they are not reading glasses. Do you think that he thinks they make him look smarter ?
Also did you notice him correct himself by saying “…but that was the old club eh…company”
Shameless and unprincipled typist of a man.

View Comment

Avatar

midcalderanPosted on11:26 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Humble Pie says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:20

Did you see Jabba take his glasses off just prior to being asked the first question and then proceed to fiddle with them throughout the interview
————————-
Jabba looked liked one of those clowns at the fairground where their heads go left and right and you have to try to throw a ping ball in their mouth.

View Comment

Avatar

rantinrobinPosted on11:28 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Worst Traynor offence in my view was his blithe,dismissive reference to big tax case and that it no longer matters given the deadness of the old club.

Shocking that BBC reverterd to a tabloid hack to give assessment of CW interview.Back to the Kailyard. An atrocious editorial decision.

View Comment

Avatar

ghirl1888Posted on11:29 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Does anyone have links to any of the interviews that’s been on tonight, I missed them but would love to see them. Thanks 🙂

View Comment

Avatar

Humble PiePosted on11:32 pm - Oct 17, 2012


midcalderan says:

Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:26

First time I’ve regretted my recent purchase of a 42 inch TV in High Definition.

View Comment

Avatar

AlthetimPosted on11:32 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Regarding Our Hero’s interview with Chris McL.

Craigie boy says, referrring to SDM, “his company recommended we use Ticketus”

– yet we are to believe SDM had no knowledge of this arrangement. I would say SDM wants to hold more meetings with his exec team, perhaps ask them WTF they are up to during the course of the working day.

Does anyone have an unedited version of this interview? The continuity around the time when O.H. stated “Rangers have been punished enough” is highly questionable.

What about Doncaster being told an insolvency event is highly likely and that a CVA acceptance is unlikely back in Oct 2011? True or not? Which of these upstanding pillars of the community do we believe?

Did Our Hero introduce the jolly Green idiot to Dumb & Dumber? Did SDM introduce Ticketus to Our Hero? Did Our Hero appoint Dumb & Dumber knowing they had a conflict of interest?

Are they just a bunch of lying James Hunts?, A symbiotic, colon related nest of vipers, perchance?

View Comment

Avatar

rabPosted on11:38 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Paraphrasing jabba again

rfc had ran up £80m of debt but had paid it down to £18m.

Did they jim, did they really, or did taxpayers ultimately pay most of that when murray underwrote the share issue by picking up the bill with his other basket case company.

View Comment

Avatar

midcalderanPosted on11:39 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Humble Pie says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:32

midcalderan says:

Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:26

First time I’ve regretted my recent purchase of a 42 inch TV in High Definition.
======
I think the new 42 inch HD TV would let you try your luck with a ping pong ball!

View Comment

Avatar

paulmac2Posted on11:40 pm - Oct 17, 2012


wjohnston1 says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:15

Listened to Traynor.
He quite clearly stated, when talking about Oldco (my words) ‘That club,the company is closed’.
There we have it. The club and the company are the same thing. And its dead.
Please could he put that into print.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He most certainly did…

He also took credit for introducing the phrase Succulent Lamb..

Just a pity the interviewer didn’t see fit to ask Jim..”isn’t your paper just as guilty for running a story that Craig Whyte was an off the radar billionaire?”

View Comment

Avatar

rabPosted on11:41 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Paraphrasing jabba yet again.

Blah blah blah condescending nonesense piffle blah fart.

View Comment

Avatar

john clarkePosted on11:43 pm - Oct 17, 2012


And there we have it.

A clear demonstration that this country has not got a journalist, paper or electronic, with the balls to get right in there with hard questions.

The STV interview with CG was nothing but a free advertising opportunity for CG,

the interview with Whyte was somewhat less than rigorous, and seemed to be designed to rehabilitate him to some degree without putting too much blame on SDM,

and Jabba! What more can be said about his inarticulate bumbling and the absence of any really hard and to the point questioning by Gordon whatever-his-name-is.

There’s scarcely a poster on this blog who could not have made CG and Whyte and Traynor AND their interviewers/programme presenters sweat blood with a half-dozen trenchant questions.

Are we living in Sicily or Naples, that our journalists should be so cowed as to become press agents for the baddies?

It’s not as though we are asking them to feckin well die for the truth, as many wonderful journalists have actually done.

All they have to do is ask everyday questions, and ask them insistently, and check the answers they are given with other facts and documentation.

What we have instead are the kind of ‘journalists’ that , like corrupt polis, look the other way when ‘il capo’ gives the signal, never mind ‘il capo di capi’.

I am a mild-mannered man, not given to bursts of anger.

But, bejaysus, I’m angry tonight.

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on11:44 pm - Oct 17, 2012


The problem we have now is that the traditional media is moving too slow.
We can hear what CW has to say then get Green’s counter and discuss the fallout straight away in far more deoth than they allow in a 10 minute slot.

Where the traditional media can help out is another Mark Daly documentary to expose every last one of this corrupt bunch. However it needs to be done now.

View Comment

Avatar

rabPosted on11:45 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Could someone with more techy skills than me post the links that allyjambo asked for earlier.

Thanks.

View Comment

Avatar

paulmac2Posted on11:45 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Anyone else hear the interviewer on newsnight say at one point when Traynor was in mid flow…”I smell shoite”

View Comment

Avatar

timtimPosted on11:49 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Craig Whyte is a habitual liar , I’ve watched all his performances with great interest
but tonight was the most honest I have ever seen him perform .
He wasnt 100% truthful but in comparison to his previous shows he was more open and honest than ever before. Looking left is not a killer clue to honesty ,looking down and to the right is far more telling ,its what down right liars do and this was exhibited by Whyte often during his tenure
at the Ibrox helm
Tonight that was scarcely evident . Either Whyte has polished up his fib teqniques or he was being more open and honest than ever before .
I still wouldnt buy a used car from him tho

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on11:50 pm - Oct 17, 2012


john clarke says:

Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:43

There’s scarcely a poster on this blog who could not have made CG and Whyte and Traynor AND their interviewers/programme presenters sweat blood with a half-dozen trenchant questions.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

And that is it in a nutshell. We would either get to the bottom of it or expose them for what they are. Yet we have to put up with this mealy mouthed nonesense day in and day out.

View Comment

Avatar

nowoldandgrumpyPosted on11:52 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Is that another Sevco world record where property value can go from £1.5mill to £80mill in three months?

View Comment

Avatar

Humble PiePosted on11:52 pm - Oct 17, 2012


In the interests of seeking the truth, we have now subjected ourselves to another hour or so of our precious time listening to three notorious liars endeavouring to excuse, mitigate and deflect from their own obvious wrong-doings (or covering their asses, as the less eloquent might say). All we need now is a half hour with Gordon ‘I never knew nothing about nothing or nothing’ Smith and I reckon we’ll have this case sown up. 😀

View Comment

Avatar

nickmcguinnessPosted on11:54 pm - Oct 17, 2012


Whyte said his colleagues in London introduced the buyers to Duff & Phelps.
He means his dodgy pals at Merchant House Group introduced Imran Ahmad from Zeus Capital (formerly Allenby Capital and notorious “boiler room” outfit Hoodless Brennan) to David Grier of Duff & Phelps . . . probably BEFORE Rangers even went into administration.
Grier, remember, was Whyte’s financial adviser before his takeover, during it, immediately after it, then again when administration loomed.
And Grier knew Murray from way back. Just saying, like.
Clark & Whitehouse from Fudd & Duffer can deny the claims, as it was their colleague Grier who was involved.
Green can deny the claims, as he was only brought in later on as a frontman.
Whyte is giving his fellow spivs a way out . . . but appears to be sending out a clear message that he’ll sing like a canary if he doesn’t get his bung.
There is no honour among spivs.

View Comment

Avatar

nostarsandbarredPosted on12:00 am - Oct 18, 2012


Thank goodness we don’t have to worry about whether someone said “I hope” anymore – there is enough material from today to keep everyone in heavy debate for some time to come…. Whyte… Chuckles…. Jabba… all shysters…. and all making it completely evident to a very large audience. And lets not forget the politicians wading in…. you might think something big was going to kick off !

And imminently, we will have…. formal Li(quid)ation… BDO… FTT… IPO (attempted)….

Bliss 🙂

View Comment

Avatar

FIFAPosted on12:04 am - Oct 18, 2012


Timtim
Craigy boy has reached new levels ,he is ambidextrous with his vision ,latin translation ,Deceptive or Hypocritical ,what a man.

View Comment

Avatar

paulmac2Posted on12:05 am - Oct 18, 2012


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, October 17, 2012 at 23:52

Is that another Sevco world record where property value can go from £1.5mill to £80mill in three months?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Indeed…whilst most of the UK has seen property prices remain stagnant..in an increasingly difficult economic climate…Charlie has managed to increase the value of a run down, non maintained asbestos ridden property from £5.5 million to £80 million…

It’s amazing what you can do with a lick of paint!

View Comment

Avatar

Galling fiverPosted on12:22 am - Oct 18, 2012


A few sphincters resembling rabbits noses at the moment, something has them rattled. John Clarke made a point earlier about the COI case, is it the factor thats got them all hamming it up today?

So the £18M is for (s)DM? For a building that used to be theirs? So they can have a bigger shop, are Mike Ashleys shops naw big enough? Mind you, you couldnae faw doon in they shops for awe the quality merchandise, and pink stuff.

View Comment

Avatar

FIFAPosted on12:23 am - Oct 18, 2012


Programme on BBC2 about Pablo Escobar and his reign as a drug baron ,interestingly similar reactions from people in positions that should have known better to what we have in Scotland in how to control a runaway train [copyright CW].

View Comment

Avatar

abigboydiditandranawayPosted on12:23 am - Oct 18, 2012


Rab says

Wednesday, October 17 at 23:38:

rfc had run up £80m of debt but had paid it down to £18m

———————————————————————————————————————————

Exactly Rab…

far from it…they had paid Lloyds (because they had to) £18m, Murray shifted circa £50m to

MIH…so looks like they had ADDED £6m operating debt during the period…

I am far from an expert but the fact that Jabba, a man PAID to know these things can sit and

spout shoite to another man who is PAID to know these things makes me shake my head in

despair.

And (sorry for starting a sentence with and, Angus and John) sadly I don’t think that this total lack

of professionalism is confined to the realm of this particular case. It is just another

manifestation of the lacklustre and shoddy work that passes for “journalism” in this country…

I’d be as well seeking my information from the eejits doon the pub

In fact…

That’s what I’m going to do tomorrow…

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on12:24 am - Oct 18, 2012


Earlier tonight I was working on an application to become a member of an organisation within my chosen profession. Frankly I can’t be bothered with all that stuff but it needs to be done to keep winning work and put bread on my famiy’s table.
Tomorrow I will put the final touches to a report that will detail my expereince and knowledge and this will then be used to determine if I am good enough to join this body. As no doubt many others on here will know from doing something similar I am trying to be honest and accurate in what I am saying. I don’t want to claim anything that I can’t back up because I or others could be questioned. I require to be sponsored in my application and I do not want to make myself or anyone else look foolish.
Meanwhile these cheats and liars go through life without a care in the world and actually get a spot on primetime tele to peddle their nonesense.

To say I am a bit unhappy is an understatement.

View Comment

Avatar

goosyPosted on12:34 am - Oct 18, 2012


I remember thinking D&P had made a faux pas at their first press conference(transcript available on RTC) when they “inadvertently” admitted that they were working for RFC(NOT CW) in the run up to the takeover
Whyte confirmed this tonight when he remarked that it was SDM`s company (ie MCR now D&P) who advised him to go to Ticketus for funds to finance the LBG debt
Meaning SDM funded the entire cost of MCR `s help to CW up to the date of the takeover
So he did only spend a £1 after all

View Comment

Avatar

john clarkePosted on12:53 am - Oct 18, 2012


wottpi says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 00:24
‘.. I don’t want to claim anything that I can’t back up because I or others could be questioned. I require to be sponsored in my application and I do not want to make myself or anyone else look foolish….’
—-
We’ve all been there,wottpi!

Unless the organisation is like the SFA, it will fairly abide by whatever the current criteria are for membership.

if you believe you satisfy those criteria, you must positively assert the fact,, adducing such evidence or examples as you have,( nothing untrue,) and showing how the examples demonstrate how you match with this or that particular criterion.

Remember that we are our own worst critics( unless we are psychopaths or megalomaniacs).

Everybody else has a higher opinion of us than we do ourselves.

And you really wouldn’t trade places with the likes of the Greens and the Whytes of this world, would you?

Good luck.

View Comment

Avatar

OldcobrokemyheartbycheatingPosted on1:04 am - Oct 18, 2012


https://www.indymediascotland.org/node/27259. Sorry If this has been posted here before. Just some decent background info on Mr Green. Helps tie a few loose ends up I think and what hes all about. flotations and get out quick schemes a yorkshire speciality.

View Comment

Avatar

bogsdolloxPosted on1:28 am - Oct 18, 2012


At the start of the interview Whyte says he first learned about Rangers being sold when he overheard colleagues discussing the conclusion of the Ellis deal – which subsequently failed. Very indiscrete of his colleagues to blab about a clients business in front of non team members. And very odd, that as one of the main players at MHC, he didn’t know about the deal anyway.

Odder still that Ellis was involved in a deal to buy Rangers given his inability to do business in the UK because of the Court Order that is in place preventing him from buying or selling UK assets.

And if every funder knew about Rangers being a financial “basket case” why did Ticketus lend?

Everyone(SDM, Murray, Lloyds, Ellis, Ticketus etc) knew over two years ago Rangers would be liquidated and that was when the planning started. The plan was to dump the debt and stay in the SPL using the “Ticketus” money to get rid of Lloyds. But the money wasn’t really Ticketus money as we will find out in time and they were ever so unlucky that the fans of other clubs saw through the injustice of it all and blocked their continuing SPL membership.

I’m thinking the Zeus money isn’t the same as the Ticketus money. The Ticketus money is secured on the assets which is where they will make their money and The Zeus side stand to make their exit profit from a fundraising.

I reckon Chuck’s puppet masters are making noises about wanting a bigger cut because they’ve got the hardest job and CW&Co are not having it – hence his BBC interview.

Of course what he said about the sale contract being “documentary evidence” showing how the deal was to be funded tied to his clarification that proof of funding for this deal was a solicitors letter saying cash was in the solicitors account when he knows fine it wasn’t distances him from Withey and muddies the water for the fraud investigators.

View Comment

Avatar

chris shields (@chrisshields10)Posted on1:33 am - Oct 18, 2012


Having Traynor comment on Whyte interview was like having Baron Munchausen critique Walter Mitty!

View Comment

Avatar

m8dreamerPosted on1:56 am - Oct 18, 2012


M8Dreamer
The sooner that all the crooks, liars and charlatans associated with the demise of Rangers Football Club including the football administrators and MSM in Scotland are dealt with appropriately, the sooner the rest of Scottish Football can move forward in a positive manner.

View Comment

Avatar

nickmcguinnessPosted on1:58 am - Oct 18, 2012


bogsdollox at 01:28:
It’s King whose assets were frozen, not Ellis.

As for the rest, I’d venture you are on the right tracks.
A lot of dust, smoke and mud is being thrown in the air to hide the true story here.
I’m beginning to think that news of the Whyte interview spooked Duff & Phelps into admitting that Zeus Capital were involved from February and that they had been “suggested” to them (by Whyte or his Merchant House Group pals).
But it’s clear the masterplan has hit a major pothole and the spivs are starting to quarrel over the scraps.
But one name they cannot mention at any cost — Murray.
Just remember this, though . . . who is pulling the strings of the spin doctors and their media lapdogs?
I get the distinct impression this FTT(T) verdict will be a cracker . . . and will lay the bulk of the blame at one particular Edinburgh door.

View Comment

Avatar

panbreidPosted on3:04 am - Oct 18, 2012


Some shocking journalism from stv.

http://player.stv.tv/programmes/scotland-tonight/2012-10-17-2230/

I thought chris mclaughlin done ok,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19975957

jim traynor is a shocking mess.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nj2br/Newsnight_Scotland_17_10_2012/

a smashing day all round.

View Comment

Avatar

iceman63Posted on3:05 am - Oct 18, 2012


The dam has burst and now it’s every man for himself to escape the mountains of detritus about to be dumped on all involved. I think the plans have been exhausted from A to Z and we are somewhere around double omega minus. They have been making up as they go along since july really and it just can’t hold any more. I expect a few more canaries to start singing – within RFC as was – and within the SFA.

Newsnight producing Jabba was surely the joke of jokes – embarrassing, shifty demeanour and spouting bare-faced lies with little conviction- only desperation and half hearted bombast from the fat one now – he knows it’s virtually game over. This ludicrous misjudgement – surely this was a Mark Daly gig – together with the Savile retreat severely undermines the “flagship” programme of the BBC. Only Channel 4 now left as serious players for serious news on TV at all now.

As regards where we are heading in the great never ending death upon death upon death of Rangers saga, Hodge holds all the cards now. A simple refusal to accept the administration on the clear prima facie grounds tonight of conflict (TGEF) and failing to protect creditors’ interets (Chuckie’s valuations of the properties sold) would be in order, prior to sending in BDO (assuming that the internet rumours of them having a stake holding in SEVCO are false of course). He can call the whole thing off – in fact I think he is facing little real alternative. The stench will not go away and if LH ok’s the administration then at some point – pretty soon I reckon – the correspondence and money trail will enter the public domain. If Hodge fudges and allows this to go through as fait accompli then he is as finished as the rest frankly. D and P’s “urgency” pleas are again the actions of the desperate.

It has all gone horribly wrong for SPIVS inc. now and the sound of squealing will be everywhere in the coming days and weeks. The end- game has arrived.

How much damage will be wrought and to whom remains to be seen. Squeaky bum time for all who served on the board at Ibrox in the last 12 years, suspect they are all toast – and for all of those who lied in the SPL and SFA,- can’t see too many survivors there either by this time next year, and possibly even some more unsavoury smells lingering around First minister Toad himself.

View Comment

scottc

scottcPosted on5:29 am - Oct 18, 2012


… in BDO (assuming that the internet rumours of them having a stake holding in SEVCO are false of course)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think we will find that BDO are clean on that front. They may well have started Blue Pitch Holdings but it will have been at the behest of clients; not for their own purposes.

View Comment

Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on6:35 am - Oct 18, 2012


johnboy5088 says:

Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 01:58

Looks as if the final moves of the switcheroo are being implemented. The slight of hand trick has been played, by Mr Whyte.

Mr Traynor’s shoddy defence of (S)DM on Newsnight had me aghast. Debt of RFC down to 18m my behind, as highlighted by Rab, the debt was passed to MIH, which we the tax payers are likely to have to absorbe, given that HM Government ownes in effect the bank.

Its a shame that Stuart Cosgrove did not also guest on newsnight, that would have given some balance.

Stewart if you are looking in, can you look again at the Newsnight piece, and take Mr Traynor to task on his love of all things Murray on Saturday?

View Comment

Avatar

campsiejoePosted on6:54 am - Oct 18, 2012


Just a thought before work
Is it possible that Charlie needs the property to be valued at £80 million, just as Murray needed it valued at over £100 million just to keep the business solvent

View Comment

Avatar

readceltPosted on7:06 am - Oct 18, 2012


Could be Green is looking to borrow against the fixed assets and needs a valuation of 80 mil.

View Comment

Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on7:08 am - Oct 18, 2012


campsiejoe says:

Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 06:54

Does CG need that evaluation to be in place in order to get the share issue through some the of the regulatory approvals? Why would he need that asset evaluation when he does not have to publish accounts at the moment.

If the valuation is £80m and when RFC were solvent it was valued at 100m – why did CG get his hands on the Club for £5.5m?

View Comment

Avatar

Charlie BrownPosted on7:16 am - Oct 18, 2012


green has probably had ibrox valued on the same basis murray did ie replacement cost and not what it’s worth or would fetch as a building or land on it’s own?

View Comment

Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on7:16 am - Oct 18, 2012


Will the intervention of CW regarding conflict of interest with Duff and Duffer (copyright acknowledged) now delay the share issue in any way?

Will/should the intervention from CW prompt further enquiries from Lord Hodge?

Or is the best option now for BDO to come in as liquidators?

View Comment

Avatar

ExiledCeltPosted on7:16 am - Oct 18, 2012


One spiv who has not emerged much is our nice old South African mate Dave King esquire……

I was thinking last night – we still have no clue how Ticketus even managed the funds to give to CW to give to Lloyds – on RTC someone noted that in March last year they ahd 3 to 4 million in the bank and suddenly a huge influx came in from somewhere…………

Given that DK is perhaps as the South Africans have dubbed him – a money launderer – is there some of his fingerprints on the money that went to Ticketus……

Otherwise why was he hanging around all year like a bad smell?

I think our friend DK is also involved here heavily – remember his visit to Ibrox to se CG that we joked about on RTC that perhaps he had forgotten something to shred………

I would bet a few Sevco Holding Co shares on DK being involved in money laundering some cash to Ticketus and to get back it via another way…….

Would also explain the reticence of Ticketus to try to recover anything……….

Just me thinking there are a few more squeaky bums than we know about in all probability……..

View Comment

Avatar

saskya1888Posted on7:24 am - Oct 18, 2012


I do not believe for one minute that this is not a PR exercise, the timing is far to coincidental and there is no such thing as coincidence! The problem we have is not knowing what is it really deflecting from.

The share issue?
The liquidation / BDO involvement and details of such?
The FTTT verdict?…….the list goes on…….

I agree with all the poster’s here regarding the eye movement, the man {CW} is a born liar, I picked up on the point of obfuscation when asked what money he made from his tenure at the club – total evasion, could this be that he has not received his final slice of the pie? Does he need the share issue to be successful to finally get his cut? After all he did not come out all guns blazing, just said enough about the other piranha’s to create a diversion I think.
Too much emphasis on the “club” being hard done by, on the misdemeanor’s of the SFA /SPL (who I know are complicit but are not the main issue at this time), and the list goes on……

I really feel that all the clever poster’s on this site need to look through the smoke screen and be more vigilant than ever to ensure that this farce is not allowed to come to fruition

View Comment

Avatar

willmacufreePosted on7:51 am - Oct 18, 2012


I don’t ever read “The Daily Record”. I took a look on line this morning to see what they’re saying about events around CW.

The headline..”Craig Whyte: ‘I brought Rangers and their new owner together’..Charles Green: ‘Oh no you didn’t’

Read down and it quotes CG,””I was not present when contact was initially made but subsequently met Craig Whyte who introduced me to the administrator”

Is the headline a lie, or a downright lie? Now I know why I don’t ever read the self-styled newspaper.

View Comment

Father Murphy

Father MurphyPosted on8:08 am - Oct 18, 2012


Let me get this straight. Property valued at 120m two years ago drops in value to 1.5m four months ago and now it is valued at 80m. Is the Scottish property market really so volatile ?

View Comment

Avatar

readceltPosted on8:13 am - Oct 18, 2012


The more I think about the Whyte interview the more apparent it is that Whyte was brought in to crash the train. Not only that but to do it at full speed.

How else can he justify using tax as cash flow?

Was there the possibility HMRC would not have been able to unanimously push for liquidation if Whyte hadn’t racked up the additional bill? I’m hoping someone with a better grasp/access to figures can confirm.

View Comment

Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on8:14 am - Oct 18, 2012


Front page of the DR today and the story inside is scandelous.

What about all of the off the radar untruths that the DR have printed?

Clear propaganda camaign at the moment – must see if Media House are listed (assuming they are the power behind the throne): their shares likely to be a better investment than TRFC

View Comment

Avatar

nowoldandgrumpyPosted on8:25 am - Oct 18, 2012


Long Time Lurker says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 07:08
4 0 Rate This
campsiejoe says:

Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 06:54

Does CG need that evaluation to be in place in order to get the share issue through some the of the regulatory approvals? Why would he need that asset evaluation when he does not have to publish accounts at the moment.

If the valuation is £80m and when RFC were solvent it was valued at 100m – why did CG get his hands on the Club for £5.5m?
==============

Was it not the case that Charlie nearly got it all for free. D&P had promised monies owed to RFC(IA), from the SFA and transfer fees from Everton. The 5.5 million was not only for the assets but the players also. All he would then have to do was sell a couple of these players to reduce costs and he would have to all intent been paid a couple of mill to take over RFC(IA).

What a great deal he was given by D&P.

View Comment

Avatar

paulmac2Posted on8:25 am - Oct 18, 2012


Lets not forget that with all that is going on…and the sudden cascade of interviews taking place….Rangers Football Club was liquidated…I’m sure some are greatful for these interviews to hide this news..

View Comment

Avatar

donsfanPosted on8:27 am - Oct 18, 2012


Can i ask what may be a silly question? What happens if BDO claim the administration was a sham? Does it invalid CG’s purchase of the assets? And also does CW still hold a floating charge?

View Comment

cosmichaggis

cosmichaggisPosted on8:28 am - Oct 18, 2012


One thing that Craig Whyte did state was that the club was a financial basket case due to the running of the EBT system and the BTC along with the board ignoring the mounting debt and tax and carrying on regardless without cutting costs. A very very damning statement of SDM and the Rangers board.

View Comment

Avatar

thebasharmilestegPosted on8:42 am - Oct 18, 2012


No donsfan, not a silly question and one I’ve been asking for a while. My understanding was that Whyte’s ownership was only to be transferred to Green if the CVA was succesful – it wasn’t so what happened?

There are no silly questions on this site – just stupid answers from CG, SDM, CW, SPL, SFA etc all gaily printed by the MSM without comment.

View Comment

Avatar

neepheidPosted on8:48 am - Oct 18, 2012


paulmac2 says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 08:25

Lets not forget that with all that is going on…and the sudden cascade of interviews taking place….Rangers Football Club was liquidated…I’m sure some are greatful for these interviews to hide this news..
==============================
Well I missed that piece of news, and it’s what I’ve been waiting for, for about 4 months. Can anyone provide a link?

And now to Lord Hodge. Presumably he has now released the administrators from their duties? Or is he still pondering the COI point? Somebody needs to explain to me, in language suitable for a slightly stupid child, exactly what the 4 month delay in liquidation has achieved, other than allow the seamless transfer of RFC’s SFA membership to Sevco? What is the current position regarding the COI enquiry? Concluded? Or continuing?

Because if it is continuing with RFC now in liquidation, then there was no need to delay liquidation. The day Lord Hodge blocked the liquidation, back in June, I asked on RTC what purpose blocking liquidation could possibly serve. Nobody could explain it to me then, maybe somebody can now. I know that I’m like a dog with a bone on this point, but I’ll say it again- the whole thing stinks.

View Comment

Avatar

willmacufreePosted on9:00 am - Oct 18, 2012


Neepheid,

On the LH thing, wish I could have given you more than one TU on that.

View Comment

Avatar

FinlochPosted on9:02 am - Oct 18, 2012


I remember something Corsica wrote which linked all the spivs (even the ones who were by then allegedly litigating each other) to a planning meeting in Switzerland early in the summer.
It was surprising because it demonstrated that we were being “played” at the time and hinted that the Spivs had a plan and much of what we were seeing was not random.

Craig has now re-entered and played a stormer yesterday.
We had the leak through Phil on Tuesday and then the Beeb stuff yesterday.
Craig has muddied the relatively calm waters with a well presented (rehearsed?) projection of truths, half truths and red herrings. And all through a media channel he swore never to consort with again and was litigating with vigour after Daly’s programme.
Charlie responded with a pre-scripted defence through a similarly benign and helpful TV channel.
And Traynor got on Newsnight – and if you didn’t know the facts he came across as someone who knew what he was talking about.

The result is they have filled the media space and given our churnalists enough to work on for weeks.

But at the expense of what. Once again we are being played and the MSM is fully compliant.

What is being shielded?

View Comment

Avatar

Lamp Post SanniesPosted on9:08 am - Oct 18, 2012


Maybe I missed it but does anything on the BBC website or the interview video itself indicate when this interview took place? Could this be something that was done a while back but on the agreement that it would only be released/broadcast when Craig Whyte gave the go ahead?

If so, why release it now? I ask because I would have thought he’d be asked about his thoughts on the propsed share issue but don’t recall him talkig about it.

I could be totally wrong here

View Comment

Avatar

iamacantPosted on9:10 am - Oct 18, 2012


Long Time Lurker says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 08:14

Front page of the DR today and the story inside is scandelous.

What about all of the off the radar untruths that the DR have printed?

Clear propaganda camaign at the moment – must see if Media House are listed (assuming they are the power behind the throne): their shares likely to be a better investment than TRFC
——————————————————————————————————————
Now Craig Whyte is back on the scene, could this be the real reason that the Record has stopped readers from commenting on its online pages? Their excuse of sectarianism and bogitry (copywright acknowledged) is just a cover to stop the sensible readers from adding their words of wisdom and truths. Did the Record know he was driving Chuggington into the station?

View Comment

Avatar

Danish PastryPosted on9:12 am - Oct 18, 2012


readcelt says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 08:13
1 0 Rate This
The more I think about the Whyte interview the more apparent it is that Whyte was brought in to crash the train. Not only that but to do it at full speed.
———————

I thought he more or less said that too. It’s what most here and on RTC surmised. Perhaps it just happened to a different timeline than pre-planned? You got the impression he was hoping to muddle through with CL or UL cash until the appeal result which would have given him the chance to shut shop and place blame elsewhere. The result just never arrived on cue and losses to lowly oppostion put paid to the rest. Following Green’s timeline it actually looks as though he was called into action sooner than expected. Or perhaps he was simply the first available of his ilk?

The train analogy was of interest as Mrs Pastry and I have been on a 1930s steam train this week. A local line, plodding unpretentiously to the Baltic coast and back. Everything is well-cared for and the locomotive brings a smile to everyone’s face. Memories of leaving St Enoch’s or Central in the old days. You can even stand outside the carriages on route and enjoy the scent of coal and steam. Everything is run as it should be and at a responsible speed. Very little danger of hitting the buffers. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.

View Comment

Avatar

wottpiPosted on9:19 am - Oct 18, 2012


donsfan says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 08:27

To donsfan and a reminder to everyone on this site along with any MSM journos who might be looking in;-

There is an old Chinese proverb that says, “He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever.”

Therefore there are no silly or stupid questions. The only questions that are silly or stupid are those you never asked.

View Comment

Avatar

AgrajagPosted on9:22 am - Oct 18, 2012


readcelt says:
Thursday, October 18, 2012 at 08:13

=====================

HMRC would have rejected the CVA even without Rangers stealing the additional £14m and spending it on running the club.

They already had debt way over the 25% they needed, particularly if, as it seems was the case, Ticketus never lodged a claim.

The amount at Tribunal is a debt for the purposes of the administration, as noted in the administrators report so HMRC effectively decided what happened. No-one else’s vote mattered and it was all a cosmetic exercise.

View Comment

You must be logged in to post a comment.