On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
Pepperpots! Excellent 🙂
Good Post Big Pink.
I for one will not be there at CP to watch the new club, my season book will probably be handed back by then, I hope it does not come to pass.
Ocnc newco I say
Ocnc oust Campbell now campaign.
What can fans do to help get rid of C O as clubs have failed. ?
valentinesclown says: (277)
November 21, 2013 at 8:47 pm
…………………………………
Nothing I’m afraid…his postion has been shown to be untenable…yet he remains there unashamed…to serve one club…
“…ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument. ”
====================================================
Good post BP.
If / when the above football match happens – with the expected increase in violence, sectarianism, folks staying well away from the city centre on the day of the match etc…that could also be the point when many ‘reasonable’ people / families will walk away from Scottish football for good, IMO.
The SFA with its own cowardly leadership has created this potential time bomb.
If they cannot show leadership now, then they certainly will not show leadership when things starts to deteriorate if / when the Govan club gets to the top league – to settle some old, imaginary scores with ‘TRFC haters’…
Big Pink, please forgive me for straining out a gnat,
but Lord Traynor’s constituency in Airdrie , that would be Whinhall, surprisingly,
as it’s not known to favour les bleus particularly.
As for your analysis, and more particularly your prediction,
I favour a more optimistic view.
I’m betting on the Judiciary & HMRC.
I also believe that light always dispels darkness –
if not always immediately.
I’m also betting on TSFM –
as a source of light.
Big Pink
Spot on with that piece .
I still maintain that the decisions made in the last 2 yrs by the peepil in charge of our game ,will be exposed some time in the future and the truth of what went on in the darkest era of our game will show the peepil for what they are .
Even if it takes decades the TRUTH will out .
Beyond the event horizon is correct. Scottish football collapsed into the black hole on the day that Sevco played Brechin. Whatever anyone has been watching since then it has not been a game of football governed by any rules. All of those watching any game in any division of Scottish football whether they like it or not give succour and legitimacy to the continuing farce.
Seems a bit defeatist BP?
Not that I disagree with you, the term ‘gale o wind’ and the act of urination comes to mind and has done for a while!
M&B I’m with you & hopeful that the bull-gearing connected to the wheels of justice shall finally become engaged sometime soon… 😈
Good article Big Pink.
On my way home tonight I broke a promise to myself and listened to Clyde FM SSB (shame on me). The presenters gave another clear example that those with the loudest voices in the media will perpetuate the “same club” myth for as long as they breathe. They need polarised opinion to sustain their pathetic existence and in the OC/NC debate they have found the motherload. Sevco/Rangers fans will never believe the entity playing at Ibrox is a new club and fans of every other team will never believe anything else. The SMSM have struck gold, thanks to the panic induced ineptitude demonstrated by Scottish footballs governing bodies in the summer of 2012. Most of the protagonists in this ridiculous pantomime are still in office today.
Anyway, I earlier referred to the “same club” “myth” so my side of the fence is clear enough.
I’ve asked those on the other side a two part question on numerous occasions. I have yet to receive a positive answer so I’ll ask it again, one last time. (last time…aye, right…)
If you insist that Rangers survived liquidation, can you show me one reference to Rangers FC and Rangers FC PLC being distinct and separable entities prior to 14 Feb 2012? If not, why not?
valentinesclown says: (277)
November 21, 2013 at 8:47 pm
‘..Ocnc newco I say
Ocnc oust Campbell now campaign..’
——–
The problem, vc, is the old,old question: who’ll bell the cat?
Who has the chutzpah AND the drive and organisational skills to get hundreds ( or thousands) of football supporters from many different clubs to stage a protest march on Hampden, calling for the resignation of CO and some others?
And simultaneously persuade season-book holders of many different clubs to convince their own boards of their intention not to renew unless those boards also demand the resignation of the officers whose inadequacies as Administrators and/or their negligent partisanship assisted SDM to kill the club they were trying to help cheat its way to success over many years, damaging every other club in the process?
Our internet bampotery has its limitations, because we can be dismissed and ignored as anonymous posters. And the only football supporter’s organisation-SupportersDirect- has neither the will nor ( possibly) the remit to act in such a matter. (What IS it for, I ask myself).
Perhaps if I was a kind of Jim Larkin ( the original,not our poster jl!) and thirty years younger I might be tempted.
But, perhaps, it might be possible for an on-line petition kind of thing to be arranged, in which we could all individually sign with our proper names and addresses ( to be seen only by the recipients of the petition. i.e the SFA Board) ?
Is that a practical possibility? If so, would we be happy to go along with it?
( And that was well done, Big Pink).
Bit gloomy that. Makes it sound like we are all wasting our time, and that no damage has been done to the offending brand, bit like the Armageddon chapter.
They died getting it all their own way remember, and are changing nothing.
Galling fiver says: (24)
November 21, 2013 at 9:44 pm
‘..Bit gloomy that….’
———-
I don’t know if you’re referring to my post, Gf.
If you are,then I should say that personally I’m not so much gloomy as bursting for some kind of way of really getting the feelings and opinions that so many on this blog write about so tellingly, translated into physical , face-to-face engagement with the SFA
They need to be jolted out of their complacency by harsh reminders that we are aware of their perfidy and will not let it be swept aside, try as they might to ignore us.
Finding a meaningful way of doing that is the problem.
Numbers of us have written to or emailed the SFA over the the whole time this saga has been running and have not had any kind of response. At least, I haven’t. And we know that the MSM people simply will not attempt to ask hard questions and pin the likes of Regan and Ogilvie down.Indeed, they would, and do, simply act as PR for them.
In the main I’m a glass half full kinda guy but I’m struggling just now.
C.O. is still in place despite being so conflicted it beggars belief.
Everyone on here knows it but do the ‘non bampots’?
I don’t see how he can be forced out when the majority of Scottish football fans don’t even know there is a problem.
Until the MSM start to point it out there’s no pressure on him to walk.
This is what the Authorities have been waiting for – a movement in the stages of grief collectively experienced by fitba fans.
Not grief at the death of RFC, but grief at the overt, wholesale betrayal of moral standards – or sporting integrity, to coin a well-worn phrase – by those Authorities who have done absolutely nothing to refute – or even deny – collusion with the stained Rangers machine.
Is grief now at the “depression” stage, or is it swiftly approaching “acceptance”?
It was always going to reach “acceptance” if they kept plugging away. Many will accept the situation and move on, leave it behind along with their own teams. Many will feel they can no longer stomach the disappointment they feel in the game they loved for so many years.
Out of habit, I continue to read match reports. I’m pleased Aberdeen are higher than 9th so far this year, but I can’t muster the enthusiasm to invest any more emotion in it than that. Heart says yes, head says wise up min.
What I’ll be watching out for if/when Celtic next face Rangers is how the game is referred to from the Celtic camp. Will there be any mention of “first meeting”, will there be a “we’re pleased to welcome back”, or an “of course we’ve missed this fixture”?
f you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
#######
If your club’s existence, or definition, relies on the existence of a perceived opposite then you are doomed to fail. The failure of sevco to exist beyond enormous public subsidy should have no impact on the existence of any other club in Scotland. If you, as a person, only attend football matches because you hate the opposition then you should get a life! If, however, you attend football matches to support your team, through thick and thin, then you’re a football fan.
The MSM should be asking how it’s possible that sevco are continuing to pay enormous salaries, fund myriad court cases, threaten journalists with dire consequences for deviating from Jack’s line, make complaints about innocuous jokes and pack away the Pinsett Mason report…no questions asked.
Armageddon….my chuff!!!
Is there a Football Association in the world that has presided over more clubs experiencing insolvency events in the last fifteen years than the SFA?
Livingstone, Dundee (twice), Motherwell, Hearts, Rangers, and Gretna have all suffered events and rumours are rife that Livingstone is about to experience another.
Of the above, two were liquidated.
Of the above, FOUR clubs were in the TOP LEAGUE when they went into administration.
Even after all of the above what have the people in charge of our sport done?
You would think robust rules would now be in place but not a bit of it.
It still seems there are no rules in place to curb the expenditure of teams who are living beyond their means. There are no rules in place to ensure a club pays tax and national insurance.
Perhaps they are waiting for ‘The Rangers’ to make it back to the top league before they bring in strict financial rules. Unfortunately the new club has adopted a fiscal policy which, at present, will ensure that they fail any new test.
We are all used to rivalries between fans but discord is now prevalent in boardrooms up and down the country due to the way one particular issue has been handled.
Meanwhile when was the last time Neil Doncaster or Stewart Regan were spotted at a football match in Scotland?
The two of them cannot show themselves at any senior football ground because of the strength of feeling against them. I know Doncaster has been booed at the last two games where the Championship trophy was presented and yet still they remain in post.
That says it all really!!
No JC I was talking about the new thread post.
I have been looking a little into Laxey Partners.
Bearing in mind that their investment in RIFC is on their own account as a company, and not as managers of other people’s money, I had a wee scout around to see what they were like as shareholders.
At the tail end of last year, they were shareholders in a company called Ablon,which described itself thus :
“.Since its foundation in 1993, ABLON Group Limited has become one of the largest real estate developers in Hungary and Central-Eastern Europe, being active in several sectors of the real estate market. Its projects include category “A” office buildings, retail properties, residential parks, logistic parks and hotels….”
Laxey as shareholders say they see it as their role to be ‘activist’, to shake up the Board, make demands for better performance, get rid of dead-wood directors etc etc .
They wrote to shareholders of Ablon in November last year. Here are some extracts from that letter.
” …At the very least, the Board should consider a strategic review of the business in which the new market realities are properly considered and a revised business plan adopted. We have seen no
evidence of this occurring…….
…Simply put, we consider that it is now in the Company’s best interests for Mr H….. to be removed. We would expect that if elected, the new directors will be undertaking a strategic review of the business…..
…We would like analysis of possible corporate transactions to be undertaken, and a robust analysis of the portfolio performed, including an independent valuation which assesses what the portfolio could be sold for in the short term…”
Given that in his statement last August Kingsworth of Laxey was jack-easy about who might have won the battle if the EGM had gone ahead, it seems clear that Laxey has only the interests of Laxey at heart, and that those interests do not spring from any emotional attachment to RIFC as a football club.
If the Ablon case is anything to go by, the interest will lie in ‘ an independent valuation which assesses what the portfolio could be sold for IN THE SHORT TERM..’
I smile.
[TSFM – Jean, the video has been removed and posts referring to it have been also. Way OT.]
On a lighter note, I’ve been looking at Hargreave Hale.
http://www.hargreave-hale.co.uk/
“Warning: We are aware that criminals are currently using Hargreave Hale’s name in an attempt to con unsuspecting victims in a share scam. To date this has been done by both telephone and in writing. Should you receive any unexpected correspondence or telephone calls claiming to be from Hargreave Hale we suggest that you contact Hargreave Hale directly to confirm if such correspondence is genuine. ”
erm,…better have another look at those portfolio’s guys…
TSFM
I have sent you a PM. Would you please reply via PM.
Angus1983 says: (1243)
November 21, 2013 at 10:17 pm
‘…What I’ll be watching out for if/when Celtic next face Rangers is how the game is referred to from the Celtic camp. ..’
——
I’m coming to the view that the Celtic support should, as a matter of principle, and with contempt and scorn, boycott any such game as bogus.
And, ideally, Celtic FC would refuse to play any such bogus game.
But , under the present circumstances when football law is being administered by unjust, partisan men, such a refusal would bring the full fury and harshest application of the ‘law’ on them.
To ask that they make a present of their ‘football life and fortune’ to the baddies would be unreasonable in the extreme.
And not to play such a game would afford a hollow victory to the illegitimate team, which would be unthinkable.
Celtic should win any such game handsomely, even without the twelfth man of their support.
In the past they have won against a team which had 14 players on the field! 🙂
This NewClubOldClub thing really isn’t that difficult.
Sevco Scotland were granted membership of the Scottish Football League on 13th July 2012. Membership of the SFL automatically conferred REGISTERED membership of the SFA.
Rangers FC remained a REGISTERED member of the SFA until 3rd August 2012 when their membership of the Scottish Premier League was transferred to Dundee.
The SFA’s decision to transfer of Rangers FC’s FULL membership to Sevco Scotland was a transfer between two existing members.
Rangers FC ceased to be a REGISTERED member club of the SFA when the SPL membership was transferred to Dundee.
Rangers FC ceased to be a FULL member club of the SFA when that membership was transferred to Sevco Scotland.
Due to their membership of different leagues, from an SFA perspective, THERE IS NO DOUBT WHATSOVER that Rangers FC and Sevco Scotland were distinct SFA member clubs in the period 13th July 2012 to 3rd August 2012.
However…
Those (like Neil Doncaster) who believe a Club is no more than ownership of a brand name, will think that Sevco Scotland purchased “Rangers” from the administrators of The Rangers Football Club plc on 14th June 2012. Neil Doncaster though, has to explain, which club held membership of the SPL (and so the SFA) between 14th June 2012 and 3rd August 2012.
Because if – on 14th June 2012 when the “brand” was sold -the old company was no longer the Club Rangers Football Club (that had participated in the SPL in the previous season) there would have been no SPL and SFA membership to transfer on 3rd August 2012.
i suspect the market will take care of Rangers in its usual brutal and messy fashion. Once the current owners have got whatever it is they want, there won’t be much flesh on the husk that gets passed over to whatever group of Rangers men who pay over the odds for the privilege of wearing the blazers. Good luck to them raising the ongoing finance required to “keep Rangers where we ought to be”, pliant banks and Sugar Daddies are mythical beasts these days.
As for football as a whole, there is hope. It’ll take a generation after Rangers have finally eaten themselves, for the wasters, cowards and appeasers that currently run the game to retire, and fade away into the ignominy they deserve. By that time its probable that there will be some sort of super league franchise that Celtic will be “playing” in, WWE with a round ball. The domestic game will probably be poorer in financial terms, but, better off without the “moneyball” aspects.
The Rangers fans on the deleted video are already an anachronism, we are seeing the death agonies of that sub-culture, at times it won’t be pleasant, but, neither will it be missed.
HirsutePursuit, Admin error, even when your caught with your hand in the cookie jar!
One of the consequences of the dishonest, “same club”, propaganda of the SFA and SPL/SPFL is that it has brought into focus for fans of all clubs,what CFC fans have known for decades – that the game is effectively rigged, as far as is possible,in favour of the Establishment club. The next time an invisible arm concedes a penalty at Tynecastle or a manager goes ballistic at Ibrokes as Levein did, it will not simply be a sense of resignation, it will be associated with the cover ups and lies in support of TRFC as an active, organised cheating supported and propagated by those who control the game, including the representatives of their own clubs. At that point the gallant sentiment of davythelotion above, “If, however, you attend football matches to support your team, through thick and thin, then you’re a football fan”, will be greeted not with a comrade’s cheer, but with a sardonic smile or a hollow laugh and that fan wont be back .
CFC need to speak out against the myth or it’s snow off a dyke, at The Park too.
the time could come when we look back and wonder what the fuss was about, but i dont see it anytime soon.
they say that the debate is over when a side or sides become entrenched and wont accept the other sides position under any circumstance. in ocnc world, im on the nc side. but i would accept sameclub if circumstance were such…
that a court of law decided that a creditor(s) should be paid, despite the current club claiming no responsibility for the debt of the old club.
HirsutePursuit says: (436)
November 21, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Thanks HP. It’s always good to watch people working who know what they’re doing, or in this case saying.
Carl31, that brings to mind a very very interesting question. I’m not having a go at you at all in the following, just posing the question:
How many on here would agree with Carl that if the new club paid the debts, whether willingly or unwillingly, of the old club that they would then agree that it is the same club?
Because to me, if the premise is that the club and company were not in fact separate in legal terms before the liquidation, a premise I personally don’t see any way around, then whether they pay the debts or not is irrelevant, it is a separate and new entity. Maybe Carl, not to put words in your mouth or anything, what you mean is that you would be far more willing to accept that new Rangers is old Rangers if they did the honourable thing, which is another stance I could easily agree with. But legally and logically, if Rangers Now paid the debts of Rangers Then it would be nothing more than a charitable gesture. And they can’t volunteer to do that anyway because they don’t have the proverbial pot to do the proverbial piss in.
macfurgly says: (38)
November 21, 2013 at 11:50 pm
The difficulty that Celtic have with speaking out, is not the danger of people possibly getting hurt. I’m not minimising that aspect, but, frankly, that sort of appeasement just be gets more bad behaviour, until a line is finally crossed, and the resulting trouble is much much worse.
No, I’m afraid the real problem is that Mr Ogilvy et al will simply turn around and say, but you Mr Lawwell and you Mr Riley were at the meetings on [insert dates] where the decisions were taken, and the minutes show you supporting those decisions.
Celtic are riding the tiger, like all the others, and just like all the others they don’t know how to get off without being eaten.
“The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.”
Nothing forecasts the eventual outcome of Sevco’s ludicrous claim to be Rangers 1872 (deceased) more than this observation from a most unexpected source — Winston Churchill no less.
I would have phrased it more succinctly but less eloquently — the truth WILL out! Fear not, my friends.
Reply to HirsutePursuit says: (436)
November 21, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Interested by your little theory.
Had a couple of questions if you wouldn’t mind.
1. You quote that 13th July date as being when Newco became members of the SFL. I’m aware this is when a vote occured where it was agreed “to accept” Newco as members, but this does not necessarily mean they formally joined the SFL (and therefore became “registered members” of the SFA) on that date. Have you any evidence at all that Newco did indeed become SFL members/SFA registered members on that date?
2. If Newco were already SFA members at that date, why the huge fuss and urgency in receiving SFA membership for the Brechin game that followed? The clamour for Newco to receive SFA membership would appear to indicate they were not already members, as you are claiming was the case.
Cheers.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZokKrnCUAAmYWR.jpg:large
the battle is over the rebels have lost
Moonbeams, Blue Dreams and Colour Schemes
Sir David Murray had a worry he was broke and in a hurry
As he’d borrowed funny money from the mint.
Now his assets were in danger cause he’d lost it all on Rangers
who were strangers to the facts of being skint.
So he paid Black Jack to use his black arts to sell the Whyte man with googly parts
to the blue horde.
Using scams the boys in blue ignored.
Alright, the Blue Knights were allowed flights of fancy
but their green remained unseen,
while the real knight slipped quietly from the scene.
Mr Whyte with his green well hid
bought the lot for a single quid.
“Keep them out of the black and into the red,
you get nothing at all for two in a bed” he said.
Meanwhile
A parcel of rogues in black suits and brown brogues
turned their gaze from the impending crash
taking the time to count their cash.
When the taxman had no patience left
he consigned the Club to certain death.
The yellow-bellied SFA quickly looked the other way.
They couldn’t get a CVA so
What would they do ? What would they say?
They took a chance but lost the lottery
Round one to humble old bampottery.
Though with the aid of Duff and Phelps they tried their worst
but nothing helps.
Mr Miller and Mr Ng didn’t see a single thing
to make them think this could survive.
“How come this monster is still alive?”
Bold Bomber Brown fell down
like Mr Custard the bluenose clown.
Outside the park that he once played for.
The type of man these teams are made for.
The type of dream that he still needs
The deeds, indeed. Do the deid need deeds?
Meanwhile
The red tops employed their dark arts
Convinced the fans that the spare parts were the whole thing
Even better than the real thing.
While Mr Green with an oily sheen
preened by The Rangers PR machine
promised orange tops for the angry horde.
Sanctioned by the grey suits on the SFA board.
This spiverry was given pass
to liposuck that scrawny ass.
The stillborn club was clubbed at birth
For every penny it was worth
Mr McCoist with puppy dog eyes declared it all a big surprise
He didn’t look but he eyed the prize
A lifetime supply of Broxi Pies
or £825K a year plus shares
Taking the piss out of the teddy bears
But nobody likes them so nobody cares.
scapaflow says: (1127)
November 22, 2013 at 12:02 am
‘…and the minutes show you supporting those decisions..’
——–
You know as well as I that the minutes might equally show that this or that board member was opposed to the decision of the board!!
You and I are not likely to see the minutes of the board meetings of any of the boards-SFA, SPL or SFL, so we’re not likely to know for sure what transpired until many more years have passed and people begin to talk.
But Celtic are just as much a victim as the rest of the football fraternity. They will be as aware of the skulduggery and deceit only to the same extent as every other member club of any of the bodies
It is no more their duty to challenge the rottenness any more than it yours or mine to try single-handedly to stop a fight in the pub.
But you persist in attaching a responsibility specifically to Celtic.
Please desist. There ARE other football clubs in Scottish football. Making Celtic some kind of special case is just nonsense.
RyanGosling says: (100)
November 21, 2013 at 11:59 pm
=================================
The Italian FA (and this is why I think UEFA will never make a definitive statement on Rangers) have a specific set of articles that allow the “sporting title” of a liquidated club to transfer to another local club which pays the old club’s football debts.
The new club can then associate itself with the history of that “sporting title”. For this reason, many Italian clubs have multiple roots in their “history”. UEFA take the Italian FA’s view that the new holder of the “sporting title” is the same “club” as the old – albeit with an interruption in membership. The current Parma FC claim to have been formed in 1913; but the original club was liquidated in 1968 and its successor was itself liquidated in 2004. The “sporting title” is now on its 3rd incarnation.
The important aspect is that the “sporting title” is owned, not by the club; but by the Italian FA – so is not an asset that can be sold by the old club’s liquidator.
Essentially it is a franchise system.
Whatever you think of the rights or wrongs of such a system, it has been used for many years and written clearly in the national association’s articles.
Of course, this is all irrelevant to us as the Scottish FA has no article(s) that would allow one member club to legitimately claim to be another.
John he was just responding to somebody else’s post, which specifically mentioned Celtic, not specifically attaching a responsibility to Celtic.
Oh some new names in the Board room. The manager will no doubt be over for tea in the morning, then tell the Press at lunchtime how he is really looking forward to workiing with the CEO. Can I guess it? “Yes I firmly believe we can work together for the long term benefit of the club”. Little does he know !!! Or does he?
Laxey partners are a Hedge fund. I agree with Scapa at 11-35pm Sevco will be eaten alive in a financial sense. Going by recent events it will be sooner rather than later. The AGM if and when it happens is irrelevant. It’s a done deal. No-one and nothing will now get in the way.
Great Post BP……..I share your sentiments. No leadership from the Governing body. No morals from the press. No chance of relationships between clubs improving anytime soon. Historical, Ancient and mythical bigotries simmering away. The OC/NC debate lingering on the taste buds like last nights curry. Mr Ogilvie still at the top table. A liar, a failure and an accomplice. The SFA, dithering, deflecting and weak. The Scottish Press, Accessories to the crime. Fuelling the fires of division.
BP…. You are correct in your analysis of any future Celtic v Rangers game. Poisonous.
At least we know who is responsible for prescribing the poison.
Thanks Hirsute Pursuit – valuable perspective, and very relevant. To be honest I personally knew roughly of the financial difficulties of Fiorentina / Parma but had never investigated the actual history and rules behind them, so thanks for providing some background, very helpful.
john clarke says: (1382)
November 22, 2013 at 12:35 am
John, I am not assigning sole or special responsibility to Celtic. I am pointing out that they are as compromised as every other actor in this saga, no better and certainly no worse.
As for anyone voting against, or even speaking against any motion that helped Rangers, piffle. Had anyone done that, it would have been all over the papers long ago, especially if that someone was in anyway connected with Celtic.
I can understand how and why Celtic, (and many of the others) have found themselves in this position, Partly to avoid the kicking in the press, partly financial self interest, but mostly fear. Not fear of the blue hordes, but fear of the unknown. When Mr Doncaster spoke of Armageddon, he was voicing and playing on the very real fears that I bet many club execs privately held.
So stop being so thin skinned, and just for the record, once again may I make clear that both Mr Lawwell and Mr Riley have done, and are doing, excellent work in their day jobs. It’s their part-time job performance I have a problem with, along with that of all the other folk on the boards of the SFA & what is now the SPFL.
RyanGosling says: (100)
November 21, 2013 at 11:59 pm
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Carl31, that brings to mind a very very interesting question. I’m not having a go at you at all in the following, just posing the question:
How many on here would agree with Carl that if the new club paid the debts, whether willingly or unwillingly, of the old club that they would then agree that it is the same club?
Because to me, if the premise is that the club and company were not in fact separate in legal terms before the liquidation, a premise I personally don’t see any way around, then whether they pay the debts or not is irrelevant, it is a separate and new entity. Maybe Carl, not to put words in your mouth or anything, what you mean is that you would be far more willing to accept that new Rangers is old Rangers if they did the honourable thing, which is another stance I could easily agree with. But legally and logically, if Rangers Now paid the debts of Rangers Then it would be nothing more than a charitable gesture. And they can’t volunteer to do that anyway because they don’t have the proverbial pot to do the proverbial piss in.
________________________________________
To my mind you are right Ryan.
If newco paid oldco’s debts it wouldn’t stop being a new club.
But my attitude toward them would certainly change.
They would enjoy my respect, instead of a deep seated and fully justified resentment. Even an honest effort to undo some of the harm would be a start.
Because as things stand, I feel we are all quite entitled to treasure our resentment of your new club, by virtue of the price that has been exacted from all of us through its illegitimate and non-consensual conception and its painful birth. The pantomime running out of Ibrox, with the uncontrite defiance being shown by those who have been pandered to beyond all reason, simply means that the deficits being built up on Edmiston drive are of the moral as well the financial variety.
I am an ICT fan.
Our club derives from 2 highland league clubs. These form part of its heritage, but not its (the club that is) history.
ICT is absolutely a fairly new club. Nice and shiny in fact. Doesn’t pretend to be anything else.
As a fan, I am proud of both the long heritage and its short history. Because what emerged from those demised clubs was greater than the sum of the parts that were broken down in the crucible where it – the new club – was forged.
The past was left behind and a better future created.
There is a lesson there for TRFC.
But as we have seen, they aren’t really big on ‘lessons learned’ down Ibrox way.
Resin_lab_dog says: (263)
November 22, 2013 at 1:17 am
If anyone in either Hampden or Ibrox knew how to run a lessons learned exercise, none of us would be here.
Humble Pie says: (2)
November 22, 2013 at 12:21 am
_________+++++++++++__________
Resin_lab_dog at 1.17am makes an excellent distinction between ‘heritage’ and ‘history’, I assume making a distinction between the elements from the past which have led Rangers to their present situation (how they came to play at Ibrox, players who wore their colours etc) and the claim they can lay to be the same club that won trophies. I can accept that the trophies won by one (or even several) incarnations of a club could be written up as being part of that club’s ‘family tree’, and belong to them in that sense. That ‘heritage’ is very distinct from the actual ‘history’, which is revealed by such outside elements as liquidation, whether or not players need to TUPE across, etc. Trophies won by that club would be clearly separate. That’s a helpful model for me to be able to use in trying to represent what’s going on, thanks R_l_d.
“only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football.”
That’s plain wrong………..only one club matters in Scottish football.
auchinstarry says: (107)
November 22, 2013 at 12:42 am
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I would imagine McCoist will be giving a ringing endorsement of the new C.E.O at some point over the weekend. How many times is that?
I see the Herald this morning are running some kind of glorious picture gallery to commemorate 25 years of David Murray’s Ibrox ‘reign’. Perhaps the picture gallery should have been for the club’s real backers over that period, the Bank of Scotland, who were more than willing to put Celtic out of business for a fraction of what they bestowed on Rangers. It was sickening, then, it is sickening now, and it will be sickening for the rest of my days. However, Fergus McCann beat them all, and honestly too. Oh how Murray must rue the day McCann ever set foot back in Scotland.
Incidentally, I don’t call him ‘Sir’ David because I don’t have to. I don’t agree with the honours system in any case, but in terms of undeserved knighthoods, Murray’s is up there with the best of them. Oh, and please don’t tell me his association with Rangers had nothing to do with the award.
Having upset myself by writing this, I will now head for work!
I was always of the belief that the plan was to get rid of the debts ,HMRC and sold revenue streams and sell to the peepil sounded out at the start of this charade .
With Laxey stepping in ,I am wondering if the plan has now been derailed the question is why .
I would love to think the actions of the REAL SCOTTISH FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS (of all clubs except one ) helped .
That at least IMO would be a positive to come from this sham .
UTH
If they mention DMs time at Ragers 1872 (now dead) in any positive way ,it will be further proof of what we are up against in trying to carry the light of truth on here .
HirsutePursuit says: (437)
November 21, 2013 at 11:33 pm
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I tried to get an answer from you yesterday Hirsuite at 9:40am. I think this is important in moving the new/same club debate forward. STVGrant has been adamant it’s the same club. He has to jump through intellectual hoops to get there, but I was wondering if you could come back on his contention that Sevco Scotland were given conditional use of the existing (RFC in liquidation) membership that Friday night before the Brechin game.
Whilst jack’s puff piece on his favourite former newspaper owner points to some noxious stuff about to surface about the business practises of Scotland’s greatest tycoon, it also highlights the msm’s blind spot when it comes to critically analysing DM’s stewardship of the Deidco.
This is either because
Jack has the dirt, as both him and JT are wont to call it, on Scotland’s scribblers. Dirt collected over years of euro outings and lamb dinners.
Or
The MSM are frightened of the effect of telling the truth.
Thought for the day:
While on a cruise in the Caribbean,
and after a night in the bar,
a Celtic supporter
together with a TRFC fan,
both wearing their teams home strip,
falls overboard.
Question –
Will the sharks give the man in blue preferential treatment ?
manandboy
The Celtic supporter may have an unfair advantage if he is one of those put behind bars yesterday. (pun)
Another email from Rory Bremner FC this morning, lovely picture 🙄 , an offer of half-season tickets from £142/£36, and a chance to subscribe to the matchday programme.
http://e.rangers.co.uk/EzNQxj~sbzfLNpKsXS7hRCosGSid_IDH_Vutpu7TR4Y/WebView.aspx
Notably, the company details at the foot have now been changed. 🙂
Buy shares and lie about supporters groups purported meetings – that didn`t take long
.
Must be an official SFA Rule for `Fit & Proper` we haven`t heard about 😉
Eeramacaroonbar says: (44)
November 22, 2013 at 7:40 am
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HirsutePursuit says: (437)
November 21, 2013 at 11:33 pm
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I tried to get an answer from you yesterday Hirsuite at 9:40am. I think this is important in moving the new/same club debate forward. STVGrant has been adamant it’s the same club. He has to jump through intellectual hoops to get there, but I was wondering if you could come back on his contention that Sevco Scotland were given conditional use of the existing (RFC in liquidation) membership that Friday night before the Brechin game.
=======================
I remember reading, that ‘we’ (and i’m one of them), get mixed up between the licence and the membership or share.
Not sure which, but Apparently there were Two (whereas before, there was only One)
Rangers* had one and Sevco (The Rangers) were given another one.
Coz Dundee got the other (as Rangers went out of business) and the SFA had a vacancy (thanks to the fans)
ohn clarke says:
November 21, 2013 at 10:50 pm
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I am not a follower of any of the Scottish Premier League teams, just minor league, but I am a follower of the activities of Colin Kingsnorth of Laxey Partners especially their “active shareholder” performance recently with the Dundee based Alliance Trust (which he lost by the way). I won’t go into detail as it is slightly OT but it is well covered on the internet.
My advice to any football hacks/churnalists is to consult the guys who write the city/finance pages although, let’s be honest, you should have done that a long time ago.
My advice to any The Rangers supporters is to be afraid, be very afraid. Up to now you’ve had the minor sharks of the spiv world taking bite-size chunks out of you. Now a Great White Shark has got his teeth into you and he won’t just strip the flesh off the bones he’ll have these as well.
One of the many reasons for the authorities bending over backwards to perpetuate the Rangers brand is because, we are told, no-one outside Scotland is interested in anything other than the Celtic v Rangers derbies, and their unique “hostile atmospheres”. We are told the the existence or potential existence of “old firm” derbies makes a huge difference to the marketability of Scottish football.
Celtic supporters have it in their own hands to force the hand of the media, SFA and SPFL in declaring that the Rangers we see now were formed in 2012. Mobilise all supporters groups and drum home the message that although it might be fun to watch Rangers get hammered at Parkhead on their first visit, it won;t be such fun when they gain enough strength to start seriously challenging again and rub your noses in it by claiming their “55st” league title. The way to stop this is to inform the authorities that Celtic supporters will be boycotting games v Rangers until their 2012 formation date is officially recognised by the footballing authorities and the media. Can you imagine the panic the MSM/authorities will be in if sky broadcast an “old firm” game at parkhead to the rest of the UK/world attended by only 7000 Rangers supporters. They would then have to start answering some serious questions. Celtic supporters are an integral part of the “old firm” product, they have the power to force the authorities to acknowledge the truth by “withdrawing their services”. If this does force the authorities to acknowledge the truth, future compliance could be monitored and further boycotts arranged as and when necessary. As things stand, Celtic supporters attending a Rangers game at Parkhead simply helps perpetuate the lies.
jimlarkin says: (654)
November 22, 2013 at 8:36 am
I was trying to get Hirsuite to come back on it, as he seems to be the heavyweight in the new club camp whereas STVGrant is the contender (pretender) in the same club.
Do we know for sure Sevco Scotland on their admittance to the SFL were registered with SFA ? As I say this absurd contention that they’re the same club falls apart on so many levels. STVGrant has ignored all insolvency laws etc, to narrow the argument down. By doing this, the debate in his eyes hinges on the footballing laws.
They need to jump through hoops to give this argument, the merest hint of credibility but I’m sure there’s evidence to suggest both entities existed at the same time ?
From The Herald.
‘Death knell’? Whit death knell? Someone hasn’t been reading the SFA Handbook “Scottish Football Liquidation for Dummies”.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/hearts-skip-a-beat-once-more-as-cva-proposal-is-met-with-further-delay.22768430
Greenock Jack says:
November 22, 2013 at 8:01 am
The Celtic supporter may have an unfair advantage if he is one of those put behind bars yesterday. (pun)
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Just couldn’t resist it, could you? – feel any better now?
Billy Boyce says: (163)
November 22, 2013 at 9:41 am
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Greenock Jack says:
November 22, 2013 at 8:01 am
The Celtic supporter may have an unfair advantage if he is one of those put behind bars yesterday. (pun)
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Just couldn’t resist it, could you? – feel any better now?
==================================
I actually thought it was quite funny 😳
Aye, I’ll stand up for Jack too albeit the link was a bit contrived (I’m assuming shark cages yeah?) – only in that given all the furore over Amsterdam whenever it was I assume some of the guys in court yesterday were jailed? Thanks for the update.
Regarding the ability to outswim the sharks I am reminded of the Simpsons sketch where Bart is given an electric shock every time he hits Homer, the theory being he will learn the futility of hitting as he promptly receives an electric shock. The picture then fades to dusk, several hours later where Bart is still hitting and Homer is still shocking.
Anyhows, to matters more important. Do we have the share seller yet? I know nothing of original placees Norne ansalt (sp) etc and given Giovanni’s chilling post above (sharks again!) wonder why Laxey were in from the start – did they sniff real blood even then? It would be interesting if it was Blue Pitch. Conspicuously evident as possibly a Whtye vehicle (along with Margarita) it would be interesting if he was moving his position in some way especially now McColl – he of the the I will name names – appears to be taking a back seat again.
Angus1983 says: (1244)
November 21, 2013 at 3:27 pm
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OT
MoreCelticParanoia says: (81)
November 21, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Ad Hominem – the last refuge of the defeated and discredited
——
Actually, the last refuge in a disagreement is “name-calling” (e.g. calling your opponent “defeated and discredited”).
Sorry.
_______
He started it !
I’ve said this before that the first victims in all of this, before the implications spread and infected many other areas, were Rangers fans. Terminal damage was done really before anything became public knowledge.
Sorry Ryan, I know if was from the last thread but really can’t let that one through… OldGers and their loyal (!) fans did everything possible to quash anything in relation to Rangers 1872’s financial problems. RTC, Phil Mac, Law Thoughts and of course CQN had been bringing the true facts about OldGers unsustainable business into the public domain for months, if not years, before the excrement hit the rotary ventilation device. That Rangers fans chose to ignore, even decry, the suggestion that Rangers had financial issues was their their choice and whilst I’m pretty sure much of it was related to the perceived Celticness of the delivery vehicle (whether Celtic or not) those Rangers fans could have seen the same information and they should have come to the same conclusions but they wanted to believe everything in the garden was still rosy.
So whatever happened subsequently, I disagree with your suggestion that terminal damage was done before anything became public knowledge – Rangers fans let it get to that stage by sticking their fingers in their ears and saying loudly “Lalalala I’m not listening to you Timmys…”
theoldshed says: (49)
November 22, 2013 at 9:27 am
—
This idea seems to be gathering a bit of momentum. Nevertheless, I disagree.
Here are a few possible reasons why a Celtic fan would turn up.
1. Celtic have done nothing wrong and the team deserves support every time it takes to the field.
2. Thousands of people will have already paid for the game as part of the season ticket. Who can afford to waste that money? Why should they?
3. Glasgow is quite a small city. People in the workplace, in the pub, in the neighbourhood will rub shoulders with supporters of the visiting team. There will be banter and an atmosphere will build up. It’s only natural for some Celtic fans to get caught up in it. There was often a real buzz about Glasgow when Celtic played Rangers. There was quite a bit of buzz when Celtic played Partick Thistle recently. It wouldn’t be the same as before, but there would be something of a buzz if another Glasgow team, Sevco, came to play at Celtic Park and brought a sizeable support with it.
Furthermore, for Celtic and Celtic supporters to adopt the stance you suggest would be to play into the hands of those who want to embroil Celtic in the Sevco mess and, if they possibly can, blame Celtic for the demise of Rangers. None of this is Celtic’s fault. If I were involved in running the club I would be extremely wary of subjecting anyone connected Celtic, employees or supporters, to any extra danger. Neil Lennon was not the only person to receive bullets in the mail when Rangers were in the death throes. The club has a duty of care.
As a final point, I think you are correct about people pining for the marketability of the derby games of yesteryear. In some cases (Ogilvie, Broadfoot, Bryson) there are clearly people who loved Rangers very much and are finding it very hard to let go and feel an especially deep nostalgia for the bigger games with big worldwide audiences. In other cases (Doncaster, Sky) this is only about money.
Would it be better to have big TV contracts, big games, big crowds and worldwide interest? Aye, but not at any cost, and certainly not at the cost of sporting integrity.
Danish Pastry says: (1709)
November 22, 2013 at 9:40 am
From The Herald.
UBIG, which is owed £15.5m by Hearts, and Ukio Bankas, due £8.2m, will return in a week to deliver their verdict, with a rejection of the CVA having been regarded as the death knell for the Tynecastle club since it would force the club towards liquidation. By contrast, a decision to accept the offer could allow Hearts to exit administration.
‘Death knell’? Whit death knell? Someone hasn’t been reading the SFA Handbook “Scottish Football Liquidation for Dummies”.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/hearts-skip-a-beat-once-more-as-cva-proposal-is-met-with-further-delay.22768430
================================
I meant to ask, but there was so much going on on the board at the time. There was a discussion a few days ago about a similar previous press release about hearts and whether liquidation was a proper liquidation or just a pretendy one. Phil (I think) made some reference to bits of the report being amended in the course of the afternoon but I didn’t quite follow the point.
Amended by whom and in what context
Sorry.
manandboy says: (328)
November 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
Thought for the day:
While on a cruise in the Caribbean,
and after a night in the bar,
a Celtic supporter
together with a TRFC fan,
both wearing their teams home strip,
falls overboard.
Question –
Will the sharks give the man in blue preferential treatment ?
———————————————-
I suspect the shark will leave a carcass and a blue strip for the next shark that passes !
I have to object to the down-beat tone of the piece BP. We have to remember our expectations at the start of this saga and measure it against that. Let’s look at facts and presentation.
Facts: Rangers died. Their reincarnation was refused entry into the top tier. They are running an unsustainable and likely kamikaze business plan. 3-0 to the fans concerned with justice and moral hazard. (UTT verdict, Laxley’s plans on how to realise profit, and other consequences still pending which can only add to the lop-sided scoreline).
Perception: Few on this board are surprised that the false controversy of Old Club New Club is happily joined by the MSM. We all know they are some mix of craven, financially motivated, partisan, and thick. Why get het up when they prove one right? We know they are not fearless seekers of truth, we always have. Clyde SSB is not exactly Radio Free Europe. The SFA did not take the opportunity to alienate 30k fans by saying unequivocally “you’re deid by the way”. That may be less than ideal but these chaps would defend that as keeping customers on side and the bottom-line. You’d expect nothing less in the capitalist world we live in, and how their bonuses are structured.
For those more “glass half empty” types; what more could one realistically asked for? Murray to wear a hair-shirt and join a monastery? Every player that played during the tainted years to pronounce that they acknowledge their career was wasted as foot-soldiers for a bent enterprise? That goes against human nature. A lot of folk profited directly and indirectly (e.g. tame journos) from the Murray empire- they are, of course, likely to be defensive and minimise either the wrong-doing or their ability to have acted differently.
So, while I agree that Ogilvy must go, that sports journalism is part of the entertainment industry etc… For me when I remember reading about this saga on RTC back in the day… Let’s just say I’d have taken the result we have today. C’mon, it’s a better, more transparent world than it was 2 years ago.
Esteban says: (33)
November 22, 2013 at 10:08 am
I seem to be making a habit of defending the indefensible (that’s you GJ 😆 ) this morning so I might as well have another crack. Regarding the true commercially minded folks of whom I would consider Doncaster as the most prominent I don’t actually consider his/their longing for the old firm derby as was as a particular tie to RFC (or CFC for that matter) per se but an honest portrayal of how they see the game – summarised as “we can only sell four games a year” or some such.
Two factors spring immediately to my diddy team brain. Firstly, in looking after the long term health of the game throughout the country it was their job to realise that that was a dangerous proposition especially if one of the two keystones were heavily rumoured to be dancing with the debt devil. Yet their Plan B seems to be nothing more than recreate what aye wiz.
Secondly, Doncaster and his type do not have four OF derbies to sell at the moment. Tough. Nobody’s fault but RFC’s. Stop greetin and get on with it. It was and remains absolutely clear that they simply could not, and still cannot envisage a scottish football landscape that was/is not underpinned by four or more CFC/Sevco games.
And to be clear, no CO is not included in the commercially minded grouping. His affiliation appears to be much more one sided. Still can’t work out SR right enough. Rabbit in headlights seems most apt.
jockybhoy says: (269)
November 22, 2013 at 10:07 am
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There’s no doubt that fans of Rangers did see conspiracy because of the messenger – RTC etc, but the damage to Rangers was already done. RTC and others managed to bring it somewhat into the public domain.
The old club / new club discussion is just a distraction when it all comes to pass. It only will have relevance for those wishing to discuss it, the argument, as has been shown, will have no impact on Scottish football.
Those who have predicted sale and lease back for spivco i think will see this realised and spivco hampered by a huge rent and long tenancy agreement (20 years).
But then this opens up he question, will the club be sold on the cheap only if the sale and leaseback is signed too.
If the fans want the spivs out, starve them out, no season tickets, no merchandise!
Billy Boyce
Just couldn’t resist it, could you? – feel any better now?
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Tomtom
I actually thought it was quite funny
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In a free society humour is a two way street and an attempt at redressing the balance (in a very small way) should be welcomed.
Employ tolerance, no big deal or issue should be made out of it. Let it rest there.
scapaflow says: (1129)
November 22, 2013 at 1:26 am
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Resin_lab_dog says: (263)
November 22, 2013 at 1:17 am
If anyone in either Hampden or Ibrox knew how to run a lessons learned exercise, none of us would be here.
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too true.
unfortunately they seem to think that the normal rules of running a business don’t apply to them. to conduct a lessons learned exercise would be to admit they got something wrong.