On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
The 2 most senior figures in a shot organisation have decided they are appropriate individuals to pass moral judgement on the one club who are keeping Scotland’s profile alive in European terms, and have set the benchmark for financially responsible operations.
That’s a wow moment. Especially coming from a man who’s only defence to being part of David Murray’s deception and tax evasion scheme,was that he trusted Murray was doing everything in line with the rules. Ogilvie is either a bare faced liar , or so naive that he would probably still give Lance Armstrong the benefit of the doubt.
However, what happens now from Celtic’s perspective. The choices as I see it are as follows :
A) Ignore the comments and wait for the next revelation out of Ibrox to consign this to Andy Warhol’s “15 minutes of fame” category
B) Make a non descript ” comments noted ” response
C) Condemn Ogilvie as being an out and out hypocrite. State the club will not be lectured about respect by a man complicit in disrespecting every Club in Scotland as part of Murrays decade long plan to flaunt SFA rules and deceive the authorities and member clubs
Option C) is what they would like to say, I suspect option A) will be the one they go with.
Good evening.
Off to bed shortly. Hope temperature picks up for games tomorrow.
Still seething about the patronising condescending statement from the duplicitous bar steward Ogilvie.
If I were PL I would not want to be within a million miles of the SFA and would resign, although that might be seen as petulent now.
If the clubs wont act and vote CO out now then the game is really dead.
Ogilvie is almost single handedly responsible for the state of Scottish football.
Do not forget this man was a Director at Ibrox. He presided over and participated in an EBT scheme and is heavily conflicted.
I am by nature peaceful and do not support demonstrations but I really think the time has come for every Scottish Football fan to gather at the doors of Hampden and protest until he goes.
Is Mr Regan’s tweet a sign of internal discord at the SFA?
Seems to me that Stewart Regan’s tweet is as much a criticism of Campbell Ogilvie’s intervention as it is of Peter Lawwells Rory Bremner quip.
Stewart Regan has been very, very diligent in ensuring that public statements from the SFA on the status of the new club have been as neutral as possible. Regan’probably recognises that Mr Ogilvie’s apparent petulance today is a premeditated device, blatantly designed to force the SFA into the “same club” camp.
Personally, I think that the Chief Executive has genuinely (however misguidedly) tried to play the diplomatic card over the past two years. While the SFA (and SFL) treated Sevco’s Rangers as a new club, they have pointedly refused to declare it as such.
Stewart Regan knows that he cannot possibly explain or justify the SFA’s actions if they were to declare that the current Rangers are the same Rangers that previously played in the SPL.
Campbell Ogilvie agenda, it seems, overcomes such “trivial” concerns.
Lets get real here!
Why is that idiot Ogilvie still President of The Scottish Football Association?
Can someone explain to me please? If he wasn’t there, I seriously think the SFA would have more respect than they do now. Carrying this Clown and all the baggage he brings with him just tars the SFA with the same brush.
From an Internet bampots point of view, time to go Mr O!
Or, from Mr O’s or Mr Regans perspective, is it time to go Mr O?
“Two of our oldest rivals?” Who would that be then? I can only think of Celtic and Queens Park!
Can’t be that famous old club that used to be called Rangers, they were liquidated 2 years ago.
That brings us back to the recent debate, are they newco or oldco? Obviously our Conflicted President still thinks they are oldco!
Campbell, wake up tomorrow and do the following:
1. Resign
2. Pay the tax back from your EBT
3. Go to a counselling service
Ryan
No problem easy done ,when you are fighting fires all over the place .
While your here could I ask if any of your fellow fans actually look in to this blog and if so ,what do they think of the blog
fergusslayedtheblues says: (232)
November 22, 2013 at 7:53 pm
7 0 Rate This
I must admit that I am surprised at the Laxey move
%%%%%%
More laxative than Laxey, they will go through the corpse of sevco faster than sh1t off a shiny, hot shovel.
Barcabhoy says: (289)
November 22, 2013 at 11:12 pm
The 2 most senior figures in a shot organisation have decided they are appropriate individuals to pass moral judgement on the one club who are keeping Scotland’s profile alive in European terms, and have set the benchmark for financially responsible operations.
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You are only in a position to say that because there was previously a partner in crime to deliver the riches of Scottish Football to enable youse to PUMP the diddy teams to keep your places in Europe.
Rangers are the Devil. Celtic were the Devils friend. Such short memories.
Thanks for getting back to me Hirsuite. I’m just in from work and have been on Twitter to see STVGrant is still spinning like a top and Ogilvie is basically laughing down his sleeve at Scottish Football with his statements tonight.
I said to someone the other day, the longer you indulge in a debate over a proven fact, the more liable you are to start doubting that very fact. It reminds me of a tremendous short film Harvie Krumpet( strongly recommend to folks – 20 mins long on youtube) where he says ” facts still exist – even if they are ignored”.
here’s the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouyVS6HOFeo
I think it would be very good to get yourself and STVGrant into a discussion on what’s what.
I think most fans outside Sevco and MSM acknowledge it’s a new club, but there really is no reconciling what’s gone on here. While a lot of folk think we are beating this into the ground, I do think you and Grant could do a lot of good by taking this debate forward.
fergusslayedtheblues says: (233)
November 22, 2013 at 11:23 pm
======================
Fergus,
Apologies that we sound familiar, definately not intentional, and hopefully Ryan was not confused with me.
I just picked the name as I liked Deacon Blue!
You may ask Fergus, and thank you for doing so.
I’ll answer in a disappointing fashion I’m afraid. I don’t actually know anyone in real life who uses this blog, or at least anyone who admits to it! Fellow fans – no, I don’t know anyone who is on here. Most of my closest friends are Rangers fans, and most of my workmates are aggressively anti Rangers, at least since the liquidation event. The Rangers fans I know have been life long fans, among us we’ve been witness to the Gazza hat trick sealing 8 in a row, the Champions League 2-2 draw with Marseille, many other greats and I personally had the pleasure of being at the home fixture against Motherwell when we could have clinched 9 in a row but conspired to somehow lose. Among all of us, life events such as careers and children have meant that for the last few years there haven’t been any season ticket holders amongst us. And what I can say about many of the friends I refer to is that an almost apathy has settled over them; they, like me, continue to support Rangers / Sevco – the best way I heard it referred to on here recently was the heritage attaching to “New” Rangers – but they and I have grown so tired of the nonsense going on that a lot of them have become quite detached from what is going on. Hence no presence on the blog.
I can’t speak for other people but I think a lot of us (Rangers fans) just want to wake up when its all over and we can get back to thinking about the football. I was recently at the 8-2 game for Rangers against Stenhousemuir and the abiding memory was not the score or the armed forces display but the “sack the board” chants. It just rammed home to me that I can’t remember the last time I got to think about my team without thinking about boardroom shenanigans. And I know where the blame for that lies and I know how a lot of you feel about it, but I think it is important that you guys realise that it hurts a lot of us too.
GeronimosCadillac says: (77)
November 22, 2013 at 11:29 pm
What rules did Celtic break? What taxes did Celtic refuse to pay? What other creditors did Celtic abandon?
You say Celtic were “a partner in crime”, as though existence after the demise of the “partner” were unthinkable. Without the “partner”, Scottish football would look like it does today, with Aberdeen and Dundee United playing good football, crowds coming back to a lot of grounds and no bombs anywhere.
davythelotion says: (238)
November 22, 2013 at 11:09 pm
arabest1 says: (405)
November 22, 2013 at 11:53 am
26 0 Rate This
A point of clarification please. I read somewhere yesterday the claim that Minty claimed to have lost 100 million of his ‘own’ money by pouring it into RFC.
£££££££
The face painter lost more money than DM.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If he is lying why not just say?
Not sure if its been covered here before regarding David Murray’s “money” going into Rangers – are people differentiating between the money loaned to MIH by HBOS and money loaned to Rangers or is it being assumed that all money Murray put into Rangers came from the bank via MIH?
davythelotion
For reasons above I hope your correct but any demise of the tribute act will have only one positive for the rest of us .If the new tribute act supporters take the corpse on and start again .
IMO it has been proved that Scottish football can survive without the old firm ,so why strive to get it back .
Unless the peepil in charge are admitting Scottish football is worth nowt without (I would say rivalry but even moderates are radicals because of the SFA )
I would argue that our game will never recover from this episode
GeronimosCadillac says: (78)
November 22, 2013 at 11:41 pm
If he is lying why not just say?
£££££££
DM is a past master of obfuscation. Jack is the obfuscator’s obfuscator.
DM didn’t put £100m of his own money into RFC(IL). He may have tapped chinas at BoS for cash but it wasn’t his. If anything he rinsed more dough out of the operation than he nominally contributed.
He’s lying.
Ryan
This was a bug bear for me ,what money DID ,DM put into the old club
Esteban says: (36)
November 22, 2013 at 11:38 pm
GeronimosCadillac says: (77)
November 22, 2013 at 11:29 pm
What rules did Celtic break? What taxes did Celtic refuse to pay? What other creditors did Celtic abandon?
You say Celtic were “a partner in crime”, as though existence after the demise of the “partner” were unthinkable. Without the “partner”, Scottish football would look like it does today, with Aberdeen and Dundee United playing good football, crowds coming back to a lot of grounds and no bombs anywhere.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When I say “partners in crime” I mean they way the old SPL was stitched up in a way that meant even if Rangers or Celtic finished 2nd they ended up with the bulk of the prize money. In short the league was fixed in their favour.. Most things were, even the refs. When we had a good player “they” bought him and normally ruined him.
Now a days Celtic are in control, but not of the governing body, and with their wealth and aversion to spreading it for the good of the game the Scottish game is one big pile of manure.
I know Fergus, me too. I’d like to know. Obviously I could research it myself…or I could just pose the question here and hope for an answer. But that’s just my way. I’m a Rangers fan. We just like to get our info from bampots, Phil and Celtic Quick News! 😆
Serious point though, if anyone has any stats on it I’d be keen to see them, if not I’ll do some digging tomorrow. I don’t know much on the Murray side but I have a degree of expertise on the banking side.
davythelotion says: (239)
November 22, 2013 at 11:50 pm
GeronimosCadillac says: (78)
November 22, 2013 at 11:41 pm
If he is lying why not just say?
£££££££
DM is a past master of obfuscation. Jack is the obfuscator’s obfuscator.
DM didn’t put £100m of his own money into RFC(IL). He may have tapped chinas at BoS for cash but it wasn’t his. If anything he rinsed more dough out of the operation than he nominally contributed.
He’s lying.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Of course he is and the powerful when caught lying can be pursued and it reduces their power. The tables are turning.
As far as I know Fergus put more money NET putting a team on the field as DM did whilst Fergus was there .
DM spent more but recouped more ,so confronted with his first real advisory (despite him having to underpin an ailing business and having to rebuild a stadium ,whilst paying 1/2m to play out of Hampden )
Fergus spent MORE NET SPEND than the for every fiver boaster did
RyanGosling says: (111)
November 22, 2013 at 11:44 pm
Not sure if its been covered here before regarding David Murray’s “money” going into Rangers – are people differentiating between the money loaned to MIH by HBOS and money loaned to Rangers or is it being assumed that all money Murray put into Rangers came from the bank via MIH?
==============================
Does the above matter, Ryan?
Tax Dodging is Tax Dodging is it not, no matter how you cover it up? We’ll soon find out after the UTT Appeal. Not long to go mate!
GeronimosCadillac says: (80)
November 22, 2013 at 11:52 pm
We had years of ‘both sides are as bad as each other’. I have said on TSFM before that the most heartening comment I ever read on RTC was from a supporter of a team outwith Glasgow who said he used to think both sides were as bad as each other, but that the cheating exposed in recent years had shown him this was untrue.
No team suffered more from the tendentiousness towards Rangers than Celtic did.
GeronimosCadillac says: (79)
November 22, 2013 at 11:52 pm
Now a days Celtic are in control, but not of the governing body, and with their wealth and aversion to spreading it for the good of the game the Scottish game is one big pile of manure.
%%%%%%
Speaking as an amateur gardener, manure is a very valuable contributor to the success of a crop. How many different teams have won trophies in the last three years? How many teams have had a shot at Europe, more or less since the LE?
Scottish football is gradually producing a crop of very good footballers who will go on to represent their country.
Esteban says: (37)
November 23, 2013 at 12:03 am
GeronimosCadillac says: (80)
November 22, 2013 at 11:52 pm
We had years of ‘both sides are as bad as each other’. I have said on TSFM before that the most heartening comment I ever read on RTC was from a supporter of a team outwith Glasgow who said he used to think both sides were as bad as each other, but that the cheating exposed in recent years had shown him this was untrue.
No team suffered more from the tendentiousness towards Rangers than Celtic did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Every club (other than the Old Firm)in the West of Scotland suffers from that tendentiousness . What we suffer from is sectarianism writ large as a sporting contest.
Scapaflow @ 9:02
At the risk of getting spanked by John, again…. you need to set Mr Lawwell’s joke in its proper context.
The Celtic AGM was probably the most difficult that the current Celtic board have had. They got smacked around on the Living wage motion, and were forced into at least a partial U Turn, by the excellent, well researched, detailed work that Auldheid’s group had done.
Fergus was even wheeled out to lend support to Mr Riley.
Given the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that Mr Lawwell dipped into his, (no doubt signed) copy
of The Charles Green Wee Blue Book of Fan Management, and threw a wee bit of red meat to the Celtic fans.
The wheeze has succeeded far better than he could have hoped, with the idiots along the Copeland Road, and now at Hampden, falling for it hook, line and sinker.
It was a masterly performance, chapeaux Peter, chapeaux.
——————————————————————————————————————–
I find that take a little confusing.
I thought that spin-management as per PL remark at AGM was generally frowned upon on here.
The subject matter surrounding the remark, eg. the living wage question should have been treated with respect and been afforded the attention it deserved both on the day and in the subsequent media reports.
Lawwell was certainly ‘cute’ and by involving Rangers, knew where this would go, Taking the lions share of the media attention away from other business he’d rather not have the media shine the spotlight upon. It also played into Jack Irvine’s hands perfectly, an excercise that suited the spinners of both clubs but only served to divert attention from more important issues for both respective supports.
Just as Rangers supporters would lap up spin that jokes about Celtic and miss the real issue, so to do the Celtic fans do the same……..unless you think the joke more important than the ‘living wage issue’.
Some Celtic supporters may say that PL was actually addressing a serious issue but then if that is the case, he should have given a serious answer. It was an AGM, not a Glasgow bar. By not giving a serious answer it leaves the supporters of Celtic who are desperate to hear the newco verdict from the people who run the game in the same place as before the AGM.
iceman63 @ 11.59 pm
Beautifully put 😆
GerinimosCadillac @ 12.04 pm
The easdales ???? Are they not green’s men in the blue room ( well one of them
)
££££ makes the world go round and IMHO that’s all that’s left 😉
fergussingstheblues says: (96)
November 22, 2013 at 11:59 pm
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RyanGosling says: (111)
November 22, 2013 at 11:44 pm
Not sure if its been covered here before regarding David Murray’s “money” going into Rangers – are people differentiating between the money loaned to MIH by HBOS and money loaned to Rangers or is it being assumed that all money Murray put into Rangers came from the bank via MIH?
==============================
Does the above matter, Ryan?
Tax Dodging is Tax Dodging is it not, no matter how you cover it up? We’ll soon find out after the UTT Appeal. Not long to go mate!
==============================
I suppose it doesn’t really matter Fergus, just I’ve seen it mentioned here a few times. And I would like to know for the sake of history. As I said, if someone knows here off hand it will save me looking it up tomorrow.
Tax dodging is tax dodging. The DOS scheme has been proved as such. We await the result of the appeal on the EBTs. Will be very interesting to me as a Rangers fan to see how that turns out, but my gut feeling is that it will go in Rangers favour.
And one further point I’d like to state my position on for the record that I saw mentioned here the other day. I apologise that I can’t remember who stated it but it was word for word what I said to my dad in the days before the FTT result. I said that in my opinion, from the facts I was aware of, that if Rangers beat the FTT they would lose LNS, and vice versa, the facts as I understood them from RTC, were such that such a decision was unavoidable.
So to my mind, if the UTT returns a similar verdict, there are 3 possible conclusions:
1. The FTT / UTT was flawed.
2. LNS was flawed.
3. The EBTs were, while patently not very nice, legal.
I would urge all readers to consider all three points. I know where most stand already, but I suppose my question is- if both a FTT and UTT render Rangers use of EBTs legal, will the accusations of cheating in respect of EBTs, while accepting that DOS was very different, be rescinded?
GeronimosCadillac says: (80)
November 22, 2013 at 10:47 pm
I agree with HP, that Mr Regan’s tweet is really a wrap on the knuckles for Mr Ogilvy as much as for Mr Lawwell.
The Rory Bremner joke really is one of those moments that should raise a wee smile, and then folk should just move on. It is indicative of how sensitive all sides have become, that a week later its still the talk of the steamie. It was a good piece of internal PR, that has gone viral, and in the process gained an apparent significance way beyond what it deserves, largely because some folk see the truth in the barb, and just can’t help themselves
For myself, I’m taking it as a very small hopeful sign, that just maybe folk are beginning to see the enormity of their error, and are at last, however belatedly, beginning to do something about it.
If Peter Lawwell / Celtic did not actually break any rules why would the SFA / Campbell Ogilvie feel compelled to make any comment.
If their time and money was wasted, then it was the vexatious report which caused that, not the innocuous comments which were the subject of the complaint.
Honestly, it is possible to decry Rangers for wasting the SFA’s time and money on nonsense without dragging other clubs into it.
That RCO statement in full:
‘I’m not angry….I’m disappointed’
Ryan
I can see your scepticism in my comments regards DM ,if I were a Rangers fan I would see it as a dig at the guy that gave us great memories .
All I can say honestly ,that is not where I am coming from .
I have absolute no interest in any memories you and your fellow supporters have from his time at the club
but IMO he and only he is responsible for the demise of your club .
All the rest is bull .
This guy waltzed in after getting a knockback from Ayr and borrowed the 6m to buy Malbora out ,the stadium was already built .
Thanks to Hugh Adams .sorry Ryan I don’t have time to run through things now and to be fair I would be looking at it all with my Celtic head on but what I will say is that ask questions of DM and don’t read the SMSM for the answers
Greenock Jack says: (173)
November 23, 2013 at 12:09 am
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can see this having legs but I don’t believe the remark was made around the “living wage” resolution. Sad though it was that multi millionaires failed again to pay their workers a decent wage.
I MO DM took very much more out of Ragers FC than he ever put into them
and I can’t believe that after all that has gone ,any new club fan could question the fact
GeronimosCadillac says: (83)
November 23, 2013 at 12:16 am
I didn’t say it was around the living wage, but it did very nicely move the story away from a difficult AGM,and cheer up the fans, which was, I think the intention.
I was disappointed, but not surprised, that the “block vote” was used to vote down the Living Wage resolution. To my mind, that resolution exemplified everything I was taught that Celtic was about. The board and Mr Desmond need to go back and read the original “Mission Statement”
On the “Living Wage” issue, two questions.
1, How many football clubs in the UK have signed up to this voluntary arrangement.
2, How many shareholders of football clubs have taken their club to task over not doing it.
Can I suggest that before the Celtic board is pilloried by people we establish that they are actually alone in this.
If other club’s haven’t actually signed up to it, and their fans haven’t made an issue about it I would suggest that any complaint about the Celtic board is at best disingenuous.
iceman63 says: (307)
November 23, 2013 at 12:05 am
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GeronimosCadillac says: (81)
November 23, 2013 at 12:04 am
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iceman63 says: (306)
November 22, 2013 at 11:59 pm
Bizarrely , I actually see Ogilvie’s outburst as a positive step towards a Rangers free future. Interesting moment in the unraveling of the SFA methinks.
Campbell can do absolutely nothing to PL nor to Celtic- much as every bone in his body and every beat of his heart would want to. He loathes Celtic – and his outburst reflects that contempt- but he cannot save Rangers. His outburst is one of despair at his defeat – despite being the prime architect of the SFA’s sustained campaign of cheating over the last decade.
He is revealed as a man whose powerlessness and inability to deny the reality of Rangers’s demise, despite behaving in the most dishonest, degrading and despicable pattern of any figure in the history of the most dishonest, degrading and despicable governing body of any sport in Scottish and probably British history, have left only an empty embittered shell – howling in the darkness of an ocean that has swept him away!
When SEVCO die – as they must before the season ends- expect to see a swift departure for Mr O.
Not a moment too soon.
I read tonight’s churlish tosh as another chorus of the death song of the old regime.
Every day brings Rangers closer to disaster. Laxey are the final vultures crushing the bones to glue and unrecognisable , but still profitable, gunk.
Running a football club is the last thing on their minds.
_++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Agreed. But what is the role of the Easdales
_____________________________________________
No idea! Paid heavies perhaps???
+_____________________________________________________________
It appears they have purchased a large stake in RIFC – where did that money come from?
@FSTB
“If you take up the mantle there will be thousands of other REAL FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS wishing you well”
Sorry if i have confused you? I agree with your sentiments. I am not a spivco fan. When i comment which is rare in comparison to others (not a criticism) it is only when I think ive something to say. I believe the fans of spivco are being ripped off and will continue to be ripped of and yes if they continue to line the pockets of shysters then it is their own fault. The baggage that comes with spivco should have been dealt with from the top but Charles Green set out his stall early and rubber stamped the baggage through the turnstyles collecting the blue pound along the way.
Decent spivco fans seem in the minority and when you look at the fan sites this is evident. and a declaration from the spivco board denouncing and distancing themselves from the atrocious comments made day in and day out would go along way to starting to erode intolerable behaviour.
It is interesting on HMRC petition that there were only 42000 signatures which shows the economic base the spivs have to milk and not surprising that the ipo only raised 5 mill from fans.
i seem to be rambling (thanks mr artois)
Fergus – don’t worry about it. I also hold David Murray solely responsible for the demise of Rangers.
On a completely separate note, I believe that they could still have been saved if desired. For the fact that they weren’t, I blame Craig Whyte. The reason I say that is that I believe wholeheartedly that if I had been able to buy Rangers for a pound in 2011 they would not be in the situation they are in now.
scapaflow says: (1143)
November 23, 2013 at 12:24 am
GeronimosCadillac says: (83)
November 23, 2013 at 12:16 am
I didn’t say it was around the living wage, but it did very nicely move the story away from a difficult AGM,and cheer up the fans, which was, I think the intention.
I was disappointed, but not surprised, that the “block vote” was used to vote down the Living Wage resolution. To my mind, that resolution exemplified everything I was taught that Celtic was about. The board and Mr Desmond need to go back and read the original “Mission Statement”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You live in another world if you believe the current Board even know there ever was a mission statement. It’s a business and one where with mass participation there are large profits to be made – not unlike the Energy company’s only the customers are more loyal at Parkhead and buy more the more entrenched the position gets?
Tif Finn
I see what you say but IMO the club should have carried the motion for moral reasons alone ,ok it’s a PLC but sometimes a PLC needs a wee lesson on real life (maybe they get lost in their own bank accounts )
I am what CFC fans call a happy clapper but for me this is a moral issue
RyanGosling says: (114)
November 23, 2013 at 12:31 am
Fergus – don’t worry about it. I also hold David Murray solely responsible for the demise of Rangers.
On a completely separate note, I believe that they could still have been saved if desired. For the fact that they weren’t, I blame Craig Whyte. The reason I say that is that I believe wholeheartedly that if I had been able to buy Rangers for a pound in 2011 they would not be in the situation they are in now.
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Who would have saved you? Clearly it wasn’t their desire because youse went into liquidation. Ryan – I feel your pain at losing your team but spare us this poop.
GeronimosCadillac says: (85)
November 23, 2013 at 12:32 am
I don’t actually disagree with your point. I just happen to believe that running Celtic as a successful business, is not incompatible with running it in line with its original spirit.
After all, one of the main reasons that Scottish Football is in this mess, is chasing the the money to the exclusion of everything else.
As for the energy companies, some things are natural monopolies and should be nationalised, but we are getting way off topic there
Tif Finn says: (886)
November 23, 2013 at 12:26 am
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On the “Living Wage” issue, two questions.
1, How many football clubs in the UK have signed up to this voluntary arrangement.
2, How many shareholders of football clubs have taken their club to task over not doing it.
Can I suggest that before the Celtic board is pilloried by people we establish that they are actually alone in this.
If other club’s haven’t actually signed up to it, and their fans haven’t made an issue about it I would suggest that any complaint about the Celtic board is at best disingenuous.
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Sometimes leadership in life is required to allow others to follow – the biggest club in Scotland failed to pay what is a lot less then you get smart guy for a days work.
Scapa
Listening to what Bankier had to say about the clubs roots and how they proudly maintain them etc and then to see how the living wage motion was treated doesn’t make logical sense unless it’s empty corporate speak that they know will go down well with the support.
So what you are looking at is empty corporate rhetoric (some would use harsher language), which is then compounded by an attempt to spin-manage attention away from the issue. To do so by using Rangers ensured no unwanted headlines in the Saturday newspapers and would make Jack Irvine envious of PL’s work.
GeronimosCadillac says:
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So it’s back to the “Celtic should lead the way” argument.
Other clubs are exempt from morality.
Fair do’s, I can’t argue with that.
scapaflow says: (1144)
November 23, 2013 at 12:39 am
GeronimosCadillac says: (85)
November 23, 2013 at 12:32 am
I don’t actually disagree with your point. I just happen to believe that running Celtic as a successful business, is not incompatible with running it in line with its original spirit.
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I know you don’t. You are a Celtic man on here with real integrity (i include JC in this) and not one of those trying to steer everything in a Celtic way.
GeronimosCadillac says:
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Who do you support.
I am a “Celtic man” in your words.
Tif Finn says: (887)
November 23, 2013 at 12:45 am
GeronimosCadillac says:
=======================
So it’s back to the “Celtic should lead the way” argument.
Other clubs are exempt from morality.
Fair do’s, I can’t argue with that.
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Celtic fans asked that employees should be paid a living wage. The club said NO.The best you can say is that if nobody else is doing it then why should we? Is that what you are saying? If so, then don’t talk to me about morals.
Ryan,
Believe the “to win one was to lose the other” quote may have been me. Certainly it’s a fundamental value in my participation on this site. To answer your question directly – no, if RFC win the UTT it will not absolve them from the claim of cheating. Based on the facts as I understand them they were still required to declare the payments and, it would appear deliberately, didn’t. It would lessen the financial doping charge certainly, but fundamentally your administrative function regarded you as above all that rules nonsense and, as some on here are always keen to say, look where it continues to get you.
GeronimosCadillac says: (88)
November 23, 2013 at 12:48 am
There are no Gods and precious few heroes, in Scottish Football these days. We can all do better.
Tif Finn says: (888)
November 23, 2013 at 12:53 am
GeronimosCadillac says:
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Who do you support.
I am a “Celtic man” as you describe it.
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Only a someone like Derek Johnstone would need to know the answer to that question. I never called you a Celtic man.
Ryan
do you really think CW just happened to amble buy as DM was selling ?
or do you think he was SOURCED.
Greenock Jack says: (174)
November 23, 2013 at 12:42 am
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Scapa
Listening to what Bankier had to say about the clubs roots and how they proudly maintain them etc and then to see how the living wage motion was treated dioesn’t make logical sense unless it’s empty corporate speak that they know will go down well with the support.
So what you are looking at is empty corporate rhetoric (some would use harsher language), which is then compounded by an attempt to spin-manage attention away from the issue. To do so by using Rangers ensured no unwanted headlines in the Saturday newspapers and would make Jack Irvine envious of PL’s work.
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Whilst the supporters at Celtic’s AGM were well within their rights to submit a resolution about the living wage, the club is also entitled to respond. Those of us who believe that the living wage should be paid by all employers as a matter of course are disappointed by the board’s response. Personally I would like to see a resolution about not using zero hour contracts and not using companies which participated in the ‘blacklisting’ of trade unionists. I hope that labour led local authorities will do this, I’m not holding my breath.
Celtic’s shareholders are leading the way on the living wage, hopefully next year the meeting will agree this.
Jack has got bigger fish to fry.
Galling fiver says: (32)
November 22, 2013 at 11:33 am
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I’ve read up a bit on how HMRC have battled with the football creditor rule, but mainly instances where Hector has tried to rule it invalid, and their attempts at scrapping it altogether. But I cant seem to find the actual rules of the rule. Can anyone provide a link?
Probably being a bit thick, but when do the debts of old club stop being added to the pot? Can you add debts under the footballing creditors rule after the date of death(LNS)? If the UTTT finds them guilty and another club successfully sues for lost income and demands compensation under the football creditors rule, are Rory FC double f-cked? If not, how not, ma heids melting.
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What rule? The SFA are making it up as they go along – as in ‘call heads…er… best of 3… er I mean 5…’
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fergusslayedtheblues says: (239)
November 22, 2013 at 11:59 pm
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No, Murray put in the bank’s money and then took out plenty for his own personal use. Let’s not make the mistake that he actually invested his own money into the club, no Rangers owner in history has done that apart from John Lawrence of whom it was once said “if Celtic find a bit of free space, they thread the ball through for Jimmy Johnstone to run on to…. but if Rangers find a bit of free space, John Lawrence will build you “a home of your own” on it….
On the Upper Tier Tribunal, what has to be remembered is that in 14 years of EBT litigation, the UTT in February will mark the very first time that an EBT case has ever been taken to a second tier court of law.
This is going to be a seminal moment, not just for the corpse on the dissecting table, and not just for the various other Murray companies that gorged their chairman and staff on tax-free money, but for literally thousands of other companies waiting either for the outcome of this case of for their own cases to be heard in due course.
I have spoken to a dozen or more tax counsel in the last week or so and all of them are waiting with baited breath for this tribunal to reach a decision. On it rests many hundreds of millions of taxpayer’s pounds.
No court in this country has yet held that EBT loans are a sham but the brusque judgement of the Court of Session in the Aberdeen Asset Management second appeal suggests that this may be about to change.
Their ratio is that if something looks like pay, and it acts like pay, if it amounts to what the player was entitled under his written, concealed contract to receive as pay, and if it is spent like pay, and if it has gone for ever like pay (never to be repaid like a loan), then the chances are that it is pay.
54 (days to pay day)
if Finn says: (889)
November 23, 2013 at 1:04 am
GeronimosCadillac says:
Celtic fans asked that employees should be paid a living wage.
==============================
Again disingenuous.
That wasn’t the question that Celtic fans put to the board.
But you knew that already.
Spin on old bean, I’m out.
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Were the Celtic Board asked to pay their employees a “living wage” or not? And did they reject that suggestion. Christ this is worse than the MSM for facts.
It’s not an anti Celtic thing – I deplore any company not willing to pay a proper rate for the job whilst you seem happy to supress workers wages in the name of football?
davythelotion says: (242)
November 23, 2013 at 12:58 am
Exactly, you said it much better than I did.
No1 Bob says: (59)
November 22, 2013 at 11:55 am
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Or there are only about 40K suicidally deluded bears out there. The other fans know that the clubs reputation has more to fear from any public scrutiny than HMRC do.
slimshady61 says: (305)
November 23, 2013 at 1:02 am
fergusslayedtheblues says: (239)
November 22, 2013 at 11:59 pm
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On the Upper Tier Tribunal, what has to be remembered is that in 14 years of EBT litigation, the UTT in February will mark the very first time that an EBT case has ever been taken to a second tier court of law.
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You leave out the ones so poorly implemented that they failed at the first hurdle and even the ones that probably failed at the second hurdle, just before court, because certain individuals got the wobblies about falsifying documents.
On the living wage issue:
Yes. I want the club I support to lead the way on this.
I also want my own employer to lead the way in our area.
I want all of the institutions I am involved with to see the moral argument and to act in a way that sets an example to others – that there is a better way to treat people. That there is a dignity and respect that comes from doing a decent day’s work. That loss of a small amount of competitive edge might be an acceptable price to pay.
The idea that this issue can be spoken about in the same breath as the complete abrogation of social responsibility that has taken place at Ibrox over such a prolonged period, and that the SFA (et al) have effectively facilitated and condoned over such a period? Words fail me.
Someone asked earlier: “What is the Easdales’ role in this?”
One word: Protection.
Certain groups who could be termed as being in the “Spivs” camp have indicated that the Easdales will, by proxy, be submitting their votes at the FC Spivco AGM.
Remember Andrew Ellis walking down Copland Road with Barry Hughes at his side?
Remember John “Show me the deeds” Brown indicating that he had been warned off in a fairly chilling manner?
This is all part of a pre-conceived tactic of delivering a message, and a deliberately intimidating one at that, to opponents.
And that message from the Spivs to the Gallant Requisitioners and any other perceived enemies is: These are the type of people we have on our side.
I remember watching Harry Hood. I remember Neilly Hood being a much-loved centre-forward at the Bully Wee Clyde. I thought Kevin Costner made a terrible Robin Hood at the movies.
But, back on topic, I think these must be terribly conflicting days for any fans of the former club Rangers and their new Spivconian tribute act who genuinely believe they should stand for anything remotely admirable rather than being, in the words of one of the few decent Scottish football writers, “a permanent embarrassment and an occasional disgrace”.
Zilch says: (108)
November 23, 2013 at 1:21 am
On the living wage issue:
Yes. I want the club I support to lead the way on this.
I also want my own employer to lead the way in our area.
I want all of the institutions I am involved with to see the moral argument and to act in a way that sets an example to others – that there is a better way to treat people. That there is a dignity and respect that comes from doing a decent day’s work. That loss of a small amount of competitive edge might be an acceptable price to pay.
The idea that this issue can be spoken about in the same breath as the complete abrogation of social responsibility that has taken place at Ibrox over such a prolonged period, and that the SFA (et al) have effectively facilitated and condoned over such a period? Words fail me.
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This isn’t a Celtic blog. I have been the main poster on this subject and I haven’t been comparing it in any way to what Rangers did. Why have you? Surely the two are separate?
Maybe the question should simply be – Do we need an UTT ruling to know that the EBT scheme was a breach of normal concepts of fair play?
I think most reasonable people would not have difficulty in answering that question.
GeronimosCadillac says: (93)
November 23, 2013 at 1:25 am
Hi GC
My comment was not directed at you at all.
There have been other comments on this issue by other posters.
Zilch says: (109)
November 23, 2013 at 1:26 am
It’s a bit beyond breaching fair play, when in attempting to keep your scheme a millimetre within the law, you knowingly submit false registration data to your industry’s governing body….
Meanwhile, the Aussies are continuing to give England a lesson in how to play cricket
Lord Wobbly says: (976)
November 22, 2013 at 8:29 pm
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Peter Lawwell cracked a joke at the AGM. Ok, perhaps, given his positions (Club and SFA) he maybe shouldn’t have.
The folks at Ibrox should have ignored it. They didn’t and lodged a complaint. Anyone familiar with ‘Withnail & I’ will be able to quote Danny talking to Withnail, “very, very foolish words man”.
They were essentially asking THE question… are we the same club or not? Lunny and Ogilvie have actually done them a huge favour by refusing to take the complaint forward. Had they done so, there could only have been one correct answer.
Campbell might as well have quoted Danny’s warning. “Don’t get uptight with me, man. Cos if you do, I’ll have to give you a dose of medicine. And if I spike you, you’ll know you’ve been spoken to.”
Which, of course, he didn’t want to do.
Once again the SFA have bailed them out.
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CO has just blinked. He’s betrayed the obvious weakness of his own position and given PL an open invitation to raise the stakes.
an off the cuff reference to the ‘Last ever old firm game’ should do it interspersed with some positive but benign comment about how ‘the new rangers’ are doing on the park these days.
The type of calculated snidery masquerading as innocent punditry- that if it was McCoist doing it – would be dismissed as cheepy chappy wit.
Force CO into another position where he has to either get down off the fence, look ridiculously ambiguous, or keep his counsel and face the wrath of the bears…
… and another…
Get him all in, then show him your cards, Lawell.
Reply to HirsutePursuit….
Where the 5 way agreement says:
“As the members of the SFL in general meeting have given approval to the SFL Resolution resulting in the admission of Sevco as an Associate Member of the SFL andthe admission of Rangers FC to play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during season 2012/13 (at a minimum), the SFL irrevocably undertakes to take whatever steps are necessary on Completion to record Sevco as an Associate Member of the SFL in substitution for Dundee FC immediately following transfer of the Oldco Membership to Sevco from Oldco by the SFA and the registration by the SPL of the transfer of the Oldco Share to Dundee FC.”
Does that not suggest that Newco did not formally become SFL members until the August 3rd date when SPL shares were also switched and full transfer of SFA membership was completed?
RC Ogilvy must have heard the conversation about Rory Bremner from outside the room, nosey b, wits he like?
bryce9a says: (4)
November 23, 2013 at 2:57 am
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Reply to HirsutePursuit….
Where the 5 way agreement says:
“As the members of the SFL in general meeting have given approval to the SFL Resolution resulting in the admission of Sevco as an Associate Member of the SFL andthe admission of Rangers FC to play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during season 2012/13 (at a minimum), the SFL irrevocably undertakes to take whatever steps are necessary on Completion to record Sevco as an Associate Member of the SFL in substitution for Dundee FC immediately following transfer of the Oldco Membership to Sevco from Oldco by the SFA and the registration by the SPL of the transfer of the Oldco Share to Dundee FC.”
Does that not suggest that Newco did not formally become SFL members until the August 3rd date when SPL shares were also switched and full transfer of SFA membership was completed?
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Rangers FC’s lawyers contended that Rangers ceased to be a club on 14th June 2012 and as such that is the date that their membership of the SFA ended. Now that Rangers were no more Livingston took their place in the 4th round of the scottish cup and new club sevco played in round 2.
Sevco automatically got full membership of the SFA the day they were admitted into the SFL – 13/7/12, so there was no need to transfer any membership even if one was available – remember Rangers membership ceased to exist the day it ceased to be a football club
Begs the question who played Brechin in the Ramsden’s cup – what team was on the teamsheet given that sevco scotland did not change it’s name to RFC till 2 days later.
Would the loyal bears have bought into the IPO if the share cert said that RIFC are owners of Sevco Scotland trading as Rangers Football Club (as was on the club website till the name change) – doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Then what’s in a name?
Just a hunch, but I reckon @GeronimosCadillac will be suffering from a hangover today 😉
Greenock Jack says: (174)
November 23, 2013 at 12:09 am
Just as Rangers supporters would lap up spin that jokes about Celtic and miss the real issue, so to do the Celtic fans do the same……..unless you think the joke more important than the ‘living wage issue’.
Some Celtic supporters may say that PL was actually addressing a serious issue but then if that is the case, he should have given a serious answer. It was an AGM, not a Glasgow bar. By not giving a serious answer it leaves the supporters of Celtic who are desperate to hear the newco verdict from the people who run the game in the same place as before the AGM.
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After pinching myself several times, I find that am indeed in total agreement with you Jack 🙂 Staggeringly that extends to your later remarks on the Living Wage issue. 🙁
Despite the natural inclination of many Celtic fans to defend PL’s remarks and by extension their club (ironically an inclination that many see as a character defect when expressed by Rangers fans), I think that flippant comment is a poor substitute for a proper commentary on a situation over which Celtic have hitherto remained silent. By hiding behind the “joke”, he sidestepped the substantive issue, and walked straight into Campbell Ogilvie’s k.o. punch contradiction (the now official affirmation that Celtic and Sevco are “Old Rivals”)
The incident also puts to bed the idea that Celtic have remained silent up to now in order that the flames are not fanned. Celtic have remained silent up to now because bizarrely, despite the evidence of the past year, they actually think their own interests are best served by that Old Rivalry being re-ignited.
Where I differ from you Jack is that I think you also subscribe to that theory, whilst I reject it out of hand.
taxman cometh says: (106) November 23, 2013 at 8:32 am
bryce9a says: (4) November 23, 2013 at 2:57 am
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Paragraph 45 from LNS “Reasons” report
Rangers FC
[45] Paragraphs 2 and 6 of the list of preliminary issues advance essentially the same argument, which is that on 14 June 2012, when the business and assets of Oldco were purchased and transferred to Newco, Rangers FC ceased to be a Club as defined in the Rules, and is accordingly not subject to the jurisdiction of the SPL, and thus of this Commission, in relation to any breach or breaches of the Rules committed in the period prior to that date. The SPL disputes that Rangers FC ceased to be a Club on 14 June 2012, and argues that the relevant date is 3 August 2012, but in our view nothing turns on the exact date, as all the breaches alleged in the Notice of Commission relate to a period before the earlier of these two dates.
So there we have Michael McLaughlin from Biggart Baillie and representing both Oldco and Newco arguing to LNS that Rangers ceased to be a club under SPL rules on 14th June. (I agree with that) Then we see that the SPL argues against its own rules that the club only ceased to be a member 40 days and 40 nights later on 3rd August. Even after the Newco’s request for the SPL share transfer was rejected on 4th July by the SPL clubs, the SPL still saw the club as a member for almost a month. Remember that this “SPL Club” had no ground, no players and was heading for liquidation after the rejection of the CVA and the sale of assets on 14th June.
It seems to me that the SPL was working to an agenda to keep a “Rangers” going no matter what.
Months of silence then Messrs Ogilvy and Regan appear on the same day.
Maybe Jack gave them a John Lewis alarm clock that rang prematurely.
Maybe something else.
Frank Serpico (@facekmt) on twitter just posted a link to this interesting article from The Scotsman:
“Here’s a pleasing antidote to @GrahamSpiers’ obsequious Herald article.
scotsman.com/news/comment-o…”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/comment-outrage-over-lawwell-remark-misplaced-1-3199478