David Low
represents a highly significant component of the history of Celtic FC and consequently a highly significant component of how Scottish Football has panned out in the last 20 years.
As Fergus McCann’s Aide-de-Camp, Low was instrumental in helping him formulate and implement the plans which ultimately allowed control of the club to be wrested from the Kelly and White families. Low also helped McCann to rebuild and regenerate Celtic as a modern football club.
His views are unsurprisingly Celtic-centred, and this interview reveals his ambition for the club to ultimately leave Scottish Football behind. That may or may not be at odds with many of our readers, but the stark analysis of the realities facing football in this country may resonate.
He provides a window on the pragmatism of the likes of McCann, Celtic and many other clubs in respect of the demise of Rangers. He pours scorn on Dave King’s vision of a cash-rich Rangers future, and provides little comfort for those who seek succour for our failing national sport, believing that Scotland will find it impossible to emerge from the football backwater in an increasingly global industry.
Agree or not with Low’s prognosis, it is difficult to deny his compelling analysis of our place in the football world.
Barcabhoy says:
April 18, 2014 at 7:17 am
Where Scottish Football is horribly served by ill informed pundits
Example 1,850
Question on Radio Clyde
” i hear a rumour that David Murray is going to be coming back into Rangers and investing heavily”
==============================
I had the misfortune to hear Mark Guidi responding to that question last night by telling us ‘Murray International Metals or whatever they are called, are thriving’.
Even going by the standards of a writer working for a rag of a tabloid that avoids the truth about Scottish football like the plague, I thought it was a low point. I often hear that the lot of the modern day journalist does not come close to that of their predecessors. It is little wonder when such laziness and misinformation exists and is reported live on air.
I am actually convinced that the Scottish media think if they swirl around long enough in a giant bubble of misinformation, half truths, rumour and downright lies, one day the bubble will burst and out will pop a Rangers spending money like there is no tomorrow and sweeping all before them, with Sir David’s Chariot at the head of the charge. Once that happens the media will ask each other, ‘do you think anyone noticed?’
Again the talk of CFC “leaving” Scottish football (this should really have its own Bonkers thread).
If CFC, or any other club were to leave the SPFL and play in a different country’s league, they would not really have “left” Scottish football. They would still play home games in Scotland, take up media inches and airtime and drain the best up-coming Scots players to sit on the bench.
Assuming the League is of a higher status than the SPFL (which is surely the only reason to leave) then the SMSM are just going to devote the majority of their coverage to that league, thus depriving the remainder of Scottish football.
Now if they were to physically leave Scotland that would be a move in the right direction. Sevco could ground share with Lingfield and perhaps CFC with Shamrock Rovers? 😛 😆
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 8:58 am
========================
I normally avoid this debate as it clearly stirs a lot of emotion and is probably not the primary focus of the blog.
What does frustrate me though is that the progress we see in many areas of the world over the years is somehow to be denied to football. When I was younger the prospects of the Berlin Wall falling were laughable but it happened. Is it really so preposterous to discuss future changes in European football that might involve big clubs like Celtic?
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 8:47 am
Barcabhoy says:
April 18, 2014 at 7:17 am
Where Scottish Football is horribly served by ill informed pundits
Question on Radio Clyde
” i hear a rumour that David Murray is going to be coming back into Rangers and investing heavily”
==============================
I had the misfortune to hear Mark Guidi responding to that question last night by telling us ‘Murray International Metals or whatever they are called, are thriving’.
—————————————————
I totally agree with your points in general. At the end of the day if Guidi was Brain of Britain then he wouldn’t be a sports journo and a lazy one at that who appears to still be swallowing succulent lamb press ‘whispers’.
The only thing I urge a little caution on is whether Murray Metals is in as dire a position as the rest of the Murray Group. I haven’t been keeping a detailed eye on the busted-flush of the crumbling Murray Empire on which the sun is defo setting in a permanent eclipse.
But it might be worth checking on Murray Metals because if that is actually ‘thriving’ then IMO it would show that Guidi is well-emeshed in the Blue PR Loop.
On a slightly off topic note, I recently was fortunate enough to spend some time down under, Melbourne to be exact. I took in an Aussie rules football game on Friday night. 25 dollars to get in (£14ish) great views from every seat and alcohol, tho lite beer, available.
Both sets of fans sat amongst each other and robustly cheered on their team AND applauded any good move from the opposing teams.
Now anyone who has been out there will know that the Aussies are very passionate about their footie and are very forthright giving their opinion on it but still the respect they gave to each other , the tolerance and friendship and good old fashioned banter was something I dearly wished I could have shipped home with me.
My friend who lives there was, like my self born and bred in Glasgow and I commented to him how Id love to see that scenario back home. Tho hes been over there 25 years he turned and said ” cant see it happening”
Sad but true.
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:05 am
========================
When I was younger the prospects of the Berlin Wall falling were laughable but it happened. Is it really so preposterous to discuss future changes in European football that might involve big clubs like Celtic?
======================================
Steady now. The Berlin Wall coming down was a Very Big Deal. Football is just a bunch of overpaid laddies kicking a ball about. Governed by a bunch of overpaid blazers kicking poor ideas about.
Casper9999 – same over here in Switzerland with Ice Hockey. I still give the refs some stick mind you 🙂
Resin_lab_dog says:
April 18, 2014 at 1:04 am
RyanGosling says:
April 17, 2014 at 11:01 pm
=======================================
Interesting posts. Only a small thing but I’ve always had a slight niggle in my mind over an aspect of the ‘history’ debate and it’s the artifacts in the trophy room – of any club.
I have always assumed that this is the ‘history’ that Green talks about buying when his consortium purchased the Rangers’ assets from D&P.
As I say, a small point, but I have never quite rationalised it and what part the various objects are part of the different strands that create ‘history’.
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 8:58 am
9 0 Rate This
Again the talk of CFC “leaving” Scottish football (this should really have its own Bonkers thread) …
———-
You are probably right Para but it’s part of the topic of the podcast and if CFC and a substantial number of their fans are determined to leave then constructive posts on the mechanics of the process are to be welcomed.
That said, it’s a very sad state of affairs when a club like Celtic, after being a part of Glasgow and Scottish culture since 1888, now feel the need to seek pastures new. I saw rather the club seize this moment to become the preeminent Scottish team, and that’s Scottish with a capital ‘S’. Wanting out for corporate reasons perhaps reveals that deep down they are still Old Firm, and now that their best marketing pal has demised then the rest of Scottish football can take a hike.
It is a mystery to me as to why, after all this time, the adopted country has not become more important than the one of perceived heritage. But answering that may merit a bonkers thread all of its own.
No offence to any of the posters on this site, but if Celtic were to leave Scottish Football as discussed above it would be interesting to see how many Celtic minded posters continued to contribute to TSFM.
darkmoon says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:51 am
I suspect the costs would drive many away, either to solely watching on the TV, or to other levels. Personally, I think would be very bad for Scottish Football, and, ultimately bad for Celtic. the ££ signs are obscuring people’s vision.
Re Mr Guidi perhaps he meant the Murray Group were “ka boom” as opposed to “booming” , it could have been a noisy pub where he picked up the tip or the taxi driver had the radio on.
Re Murray Int Metals were they not sold off to pay for the crazy decision to re-focus MIH on property at what turned out to be height of the last asset bubble.
Still , I’m sure Mr Guidi did not proffer financial advice , as such , so he should avoid disciplinary action , if someone where to lodge a complaint.
DP,
I wouldn’t mix the two issues to be honest although maybe even that assumption is a step too far. The corporate entity that is CFC wants out to make more money and the mystical ethereal entity that is the thing wot the fanbase follow perceive that to be a good thing because a/ they feel they are being held back in a sporting sense at present and b/ they feel, rightly or wrongly, that they could ‘succeed’ in that environment without such a gamble being to the detriment of what they have already achieved to date.
My take on it is that should CFC choose to do so, and if they are allowed to do so, they should, but it shouldn’t be to a continuing detriment of the Scottish game (for instance a CFC colts team buying up and benching talent to continue to dominate Scotland) nor should the punt be taken that if they choose to do so, and for whatever reason it failed (for instance Sky removed all funding) that they would return to the Scottish divisions expecting to pick up where they left off IF THE OTHER CLUBS DECIDE SO.
As an example. CFC leave with all our best wishes. The remaining Scottish top flight decide to remove the 11-1 voting structure. Two months down the line, CFC return for whatever reason. Do we accomodate them? Of course we do, it would be churlish not to. But, for instance, if CFC said we’re only coming back if you give us our 11-1 back, that’s a different matter entirely.
To use UTH’s Berlin Wall example. I’m fairly sure the deal wasn’t that West Germany be allowed to rebuild the wall if things didn’t work out.
Auldheid
It’s a pretty well thought out plan, but there are a couple of assumptions there that need challenging.
Firstly, The idea that UEFA should do more about inflated wages. It’s easy to say, but what else can they do? FFP is aimed at limiting clubs spending to within their means but the reason it is an anaemic solution is because UEFA don’t want the biggest clubs seeing a European league as financially worth the risk for them. Such a move would effectively sideline UEFA and FIFA as the money would make it worth being blacklisted for players and clubs alike. UEFAs fear is that allowing Celtic to leave Scotland without sanction would green light a trend that would ultimately lead to this scenario. Anything in between amounts to special treatment for a few clubs.
You might get support from FIFA on the idea of merging the four home nations leagues, but the price will be the loss of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish national teams. The SFA will never agree to it in any case. Any Scotland fan will never agree to it unless there is a cast iron guarantee that the national team would be protected – something which could not be made.
In reality it would see the death of the professional game in Scotland for all but six or seven teams at most. The price of integration (for EPL clubs)would see Celtic in the Championship, something they would agree to readily in their scramble to get to the promised land. This would see most other Scottish top flight teams in league 1. With the best will in the world how can clubs like Ross County or even Kilmarnock adapt to a culture of 3-500 mile round trips every second week?
Finally, colt teams. IF Celtic can pull off a Rangers and get one off favouritism treatment from everyone involved to move out of the SFA’s league (to wherever), who in their right mind would agree to letting a colt team stay? As a proposition it is so filled with problems it’s ludicrous.
Why would a cuckolded SFA and any still Scottish club agree to colts.
Is getting a move not enough? Is draining the TV revenue, marketability and awareness away from grass roots Scittish football not bad enough that you want a slice of what’s left too?
How does UEFA, the SFA and Celtic’s new FA regulate Aa club with feet in two jurisdictions? Under UEFA rules it would have to be a separate company. In which case it would just be another club playing in similar gear. If that can be overcome, how do you regulate transfers between colt and parent without crossing the same line as Chelsea and Vitesse?
Something not mentioned here previously while Real and Barca’s colt teams are being talked up. They’re not in the national league. They play regional football against teams who don’t see national sponsorship. Many of these teams wouldn’t take promotion if they won it because they have no infrastructure to exist in a national league. That’s the level a colt team belongs at for two if the biggest clubs in the world. What on earth makes you think Spartans or someone else should be bumped again so Celtic can have their cake and eat it?
I’ve been genuinely heartened to read many Celtic fans on here give opinions that the way for Celtic to become successful in Europe is to allow competitive teams to develop in Scotland. That shows a commitment Scottish football, a sense of financial fair play and it’s a plan that exists within the rules of the game.
Do you gave a plan for Celtic that doesn’t throw the rule book under the bus? When Rangers suggest such a thing to their benefit, we are united as one body in decrying their attitude and lack of honour. I haven’t yet heard a plan to get Celtic out of the Scottish league that isn’t just as bad.
Danish Pastry says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:43 am
It is a mystery to me as to why, after all this time, the adopted country has not become more important than the one of perceived heritage. But answering that may merit a bonkers thread all of its own.
=======================
At the risk of another bonkers thread it is in my view because the thought of someone being Scots/Irish is simply not allowed in Scotland. Scots/Italian is perfectly acceptable and so is Ulster Scots, but not people of Irish origin – no way. Incidentally I have a very distant Irish bloodline and consider myself 100% Scottish, but the intolerance of many people towards Scots/Irish easily answers your question IMO. In short, I don’t believe Celtic have ever been fully welcome in Scottish football and the outrage when they dare to speak of bettering themselves says much.
To clear up a few comments Murray International Metals was sold to a private equity group.
http://www.scotsman.com/business/transport-industry/murray-sells-metals-business-for-163-112m-1-1111678
Murray Metals Ltd would appear to be still part of MIH given its registered address is charlotte square http://www.murraymetalsgroup.com/ It doesn’t look healthy http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC162889
I think that it’s extremely important that we, the football community, discuss the options and potential mechanics of the big European teams ambitions to form a more lucrative league and it is prudent to do so on the basis that CFC might get an invitation.
They are perfectly entitled to go for this and as far as I can see there would only be one issue to sort out and that is how the new leagues members would qualify for the CL unless of course the CL was ditched. If it is the remaining national leagues will replace it and I suppose we could call it the DCL.
There would be no need for CFC or any of the others to compensate the National leagues, income and therefore the standard would find it’s own level and that’s life and fitba. I look forward to it to be honest and I think, for various reasons, it would work out well for us (I’m in the Diddy leagues camp btw) eventually.
There would be outcry of armageddon proportions if the move included such big team stitch ups as “colt teams” or participation in national cups. Whether our diddy voices would be heeded is a big question but I’d hope for sporting integrity prevailing. In both cases, colts and cake and eat it cups, would the national leagues/associations get to select who of the “big” league they would invite in? Would the “big” teams get to choose? Surely there would be a clamour to get in the English Leagues and FA cup? If you take away the national element of a football club they are no more than a football franchise, they can play anywhere they want, highest bidder, best TV deal, mega rich owners whim, corporate entertainment, it’s irrelevant.
There would be no need for any of the National leagues to accommodate the new “big” league any more than the world’s nations accepting the Berlin Wall was down and welcoming the new arrangement into the existing ways of the democratic world. It does not mean the rest of us have to stand still either just as per the analogy. It does mean that the new entity is on it’s own two feet. No colt team, cup entry, flag waving when it suits hand outs. Remember, they’re the mega rich guys, they run the show at the moment, they already suck up almost all the revenue in the game. What they want now is the wee bit that is left outside their grasp, one more fling at raising the stakes and to shut the door on any upstart out there who might come through and take a slice of the action.
Best of luck to them and best of luck to CFC if they manage to get through before the door slams shut. I prefer this side.
Anyway I’ve gone off subject, CFC and/or the big teams can set up any league they want, I don’t see any problem with this.
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:26 am
0 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:43 am
It is a mystery to me as to why, after all this time, the adopted country has not become more important than the one of perceived heritage. But answering that may merit a bonkers thread all of its own.
=======================
At the risk of another bonkers thread it is in my view because the thought of someone being Scots/Irish is simply not allowed in Scotland. Scots/Italian is perfectly acceptable and so is Ulster Scots, but not people of Irish origin – no way. Incidentally I have a very distant Irish bloodline and consider myself 100% Scottish, but the intolerance of many people towards Scots/Irish easily answers your question IMO. In short, I don’t believe Celtic have ever been fully welcome in Scottish football and the outrage when they dare to speak of bettering themselves says much.
—————————-
Where to start with that! ^
All this talk of Celtic or Rangers leaving Scotland has zero chance of happening. This is because they will bring no additional benefit to the main income stream of any league they would join – Tv income.
If it ever happens I will walk from Brisbane to Perth
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:26 am
1 0 Rate This
——–
I think my last sentences, although meant as a sincere question, were ill-advised. It probably comes across as a dig at CFC, but it isn’t. Stems from genuine puzzlement. I am from the East End but still feel no immediate affinity with much of the Celtic ethos, although I probably did more so as a child, because then all I saw was a successful Scottish team in green hoops.
But there are other issues, of course, involving discrimination and its effect on integration, among others. Suffice to say, that last sentence of mine was unnecessary in the immediate context of football. So apologies for that.
Regarding history
“History” is not an asset in Scots law. As such it cannot be transferred from A to B. If anyone thinks it can be transferred, perhaps they would be kind enough to explain the legal method of conveyance from A to B. And also explain why there is not one recorded example in Scots law of history transferring or one mention in any legal textbook. Or alternatively direct us to such an example.
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:26 am
At the risk of another bonkers thread it is in my view because the thought of someone being Scots/Irish is simply not allowed in Scotland.
=======================
I’m sitting in Scotland and I don’t recognise this at all. I’ve seen plenty of intolerance, but to Scots/Irish, nah.
Campbellsmoney says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:51 am
Could be argued that History is part of the Brand, personally, they can have it, providing they take all of it, and not just cherry pick the bits they like
I find the talk of Celtic leaving Scottish football quite tedious and sadly reflective of a world where money has been allowed to dictate and corrupt the basic fundamental of the game of football, competition.
I know Celtic, and for that matter the previous Rangers, were happy to accept the geographical confines of football in Scotland so long as the money worked in their favour and domestic dominance suited their needs. The now supposed lack of competition domestically, paltry sponsorship deals, TV money or dubious domestic governance were never issues for Celtic while everything worked as they and their city rivals wanted. Then Sky Sports came along with their shiny baubles to create a wonderland of milk and honey in England to which the covetous eyes of Glasgow football gazed. Why shouldn’t we have a bit of that? We’ve had everything there is to gain out of Scotland, after all, why should we do anything about making the game better domestically when there are greater spoils elsewhere? Leave them, we don’t need them anymore, we just need to better ourselves.
The basic premise of that argument is built on the arrogant presumption that Celtic, and also their former city rivals, have always been great, have always been giants, have always been better and created the conditions of their own greatness. This is not the case. Celtic were lucky enough to be based in Scotland, specifically locating themselves in one of the fastest growing cities of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. This coupled with a rich heritage tapped into the growing Irish and Scottish diaspora of the time created a world-wide interest and affinity. Had Brother Walfrid’s Celtic been founded in his former parish of Dumfries, things would have been very different.
It’s time Celtic recognised their current dominance and pre-eminence in Scotland is not all of their own hard graft, it has mostly been conferred on them by happy accidents of geography and demographics leaving them as big fish in a very small pond.
It’s my view that Celtic could and should do more about helping improve Scottish football because they owe so much to it. A start would be no more talk of how burdensome Scottish football has now become for them.
Upthehoops – I’m afraid that you may be taking a Glasgow-centric view there. I have a couple of excellent Irish friends here in Aberdeenshire. The only problem at all people here have with anyone of Irish descent is, dare I say it, when they’re part of the travelling community.
Danish – I also grew up in the East End. The East End of Portsoy. I assume that’s where you meant? 😉
Sky not even bothering to bid on CL contract had us all speculating regarding competition reforms etc. I suspect there is a plan as the timing and willingness to assist a specific journey suggests as much.
Maybe a midweek league of CL shaftees having a kick about with Uefa’s blessing, or a rejig of a cup live on Sky. Something along the lines of fu€k-up money for all parties, you know the sort if idea, a step backwards for anyone wanting to see a real homegrown world class player again.
Is it just me it is the idea that Celtic might get an invitation to the big boys table in a European league even more daft then the idea that they’ll be allowed to escape to England (or anywhere else)?
How big will this league be? Putting Celtic in the top 30 teams in Europe is a big stretch. Putting them in the top 18-20 is laughable.
Using the Champions league as a sounding board, Celtic enjoy regular participation and get seeded so they have a good chance of qualification to the league. Their average placing would be third in their group leaving many teams above them in the fight for a place in this Euroleague. Add to that the performance if teams from Spain, England, Germany and Italy who don’t qualify every year, but do well when they do qualify. Malaga would have made the semis last year if not for Craig Thomson’s match winning performance for Dortmund. These teams will arguably command significant secondary support in that their countrymen will probably watch them play against other big clubs. Add in the Sugar daddy teams and Celtic are struggling to make the second half if Euroleague B.
Finally there’s the structure. An 18-20 team league is unlikely. This would lead to matches that meant nothing and as cash is king in this scenario, that’s not on. More likely a Super League like set up would form with 10-12 top teams based on their financial pull and a secondary league of the same number just below. We’re well beyond FIFA’s purview now so getting entry based on being the biggest in Scotland is irrelevant. Stadium size is less important than TV pull and that means no Scottish teams, no merit related entry, no progression based on success. Thank you for playing, go away and let the big boys play now. Basically Celtic would be getting what they currently give to other Scottish teams.
The irony would be delicious if Celtic weren’t killing off everyone else in the race to cut their own throats.
Ecobhoy
Murray International Metals was a division of MIH, it was sold off long since. In 2005 to be precise and has nothing to do with David Murray
Resin lab dog “you represent the best of both your clubs” – that’s one of the funniest (and nicest!) things I’ve ever heard!
Campbellsmoney- very well out, great post.
Barcabhoy says:
April 18, 2014 at 7:17 am
When David Murray admits publicly it’s game over for MIH we still have journalists ignorant of that fact and prepared to support wild notions .
No wonder trust levels in the media are plummeting
————————————————————————————————————
Game Over for MIH maybe, but MURRAY CAPITAL GROUP LIMITED SC375630 (100% owned by SDM), which owns MM ltd made £11.7m in the year to 31/12/12 (last published accounts). MM ltd made 4m in the same period (both companies show this as their net worth also). TRFC not the only phoenix arising from the ashes?
MURRAY METALS LIMITED SC417296
Registered Address 11 CHARLOTTE SQUARE EDINBURGH EH2 4DR
Trading Address 11 Charlotte Square Edinburgh Midlothian EH2 4DR
Website Address http://www.murray-international.com
Telephone Number –
TPS –
Incorporation Date 17/02/2012 Company Status Active – Accounts Filed
Previous Name JACKDAW ACQUISITION 1 LIMITED Type Private limited with Share Capital
Date of Change 11/06/2012 Filing Date of Accounts 11/07/2013 Share Capital £99,000
Principal Activity The group engaged in metals stockholding, processing and ditribution.
Credit Rating & Limit 93
Todays Rating [1-100] 93 Previous Rating [0-100] 87
Todays Limit £330,000 Previous Limit £310,000
Todays Contract Limit £9,650,000 view rating / limit history
Ultimate Holding Company
UK07481384 MURRAY CAPITAL GROUP LIMITED SC375630 1 companies in 1 countries.
I was listening to an article concerning the current Indian General Election yesterday. In one particular district one of the parties had given away free television’s to every household. Newspapers also had formed alliances with political parties and commercial businesses to help fund their output. The consumers of the resulting media seemed to fail to recognise any lack of impartiality in the content they were ingesting. It seems that mass media is too valuable to be given over to social education. The mass media is no longer an information source.
I was reading a wee book called ‘Freakonomics’ which casts an eye at weird statistical insights. It drew a comparison with Estate Agents and the Ku Klux Klan. The basis was that both groups relied on a dearth of information about their speciality to maintain their kudos. Estate Agents have a whole set of descriptive terminology (e.g. Spacious, charming, state of the art) that superficially conveyed one set of meanings but which within their business had alternative translations (charming=run down). The KKK similarly had all sorts of strange passwords and secret signs to identify each other. It was information asymmetry. The estate agents used it to make more money. The Klan used it to make themselves appear powerful. Strangely one of the calling cards received by an investigator that had infiltrated the Klan bore the pithy slogan ‘Here yesterday, Today, Forever!’. 😯
BBC
The Union of Fans, a coalition of supporter groups, is now calling on the chief executive to reassure the support that the bonus culture has been removed from the upper echelons of the club.
“There has been no clarity on the terms under which new executive directors have been appointed. Most notable amongst these is obviously the CEO, Graham Wallace.
“We would therefore urge Graham Wallace to disclose publicly whether or not he has ended the bonus culture within the club or whether it has continued with new appointments.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This is the wrong question
They should have asked
“Are you on a fixed term employment contract with a terminal bonus and are you being paid directly from an escrow account”
The talk of the return of (S)DM to Ibrox is proof that they have now run out of Sugar Daddy possibilities. The thought of (S)DM returning to Scottish Football after being wholly responsible for bringing it to it’s knees is nothing short of grotesque.
Carfins Finest says:
April 18, 2014 at 12:47 pm
It’s tin foil hat lunacy, up there with hover pitches, worth a good giggle on a lovely afternoon in the garden with a beer
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:05 am
25 9 Rate This
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 8:58 am
========================
When I was younger the prospects of the Berlin Wall falling were laughable but it happened. Is it really so preposterous to discuss future changes in European football that might involve big clubs like Celtic?
=====================
I think the reunification of Germany is slightly different from a football club moving leagues, UTH. However, I agree that future changes to European football are worthy of discussion.
As I said in the original post, CFC would not physically leave Scotland and IMHO this would have a detrimental effect to those clubs who are not invited to take part in the other league or new competition.
If FIFA do start to allow clubs to move between associations, then I see this only as a move towards the franchise system seen in pro sport in North America. Could you imagine if someone wanted to start a Club in let’s say Dublin, that could compete in this new European league? What is there to stop them buying an existing club and moving it from its current home to Dublin (for ice hockey fans think Quebec Nordiques becoming the Colorado Avalanche)?
If memory serves, Cardiff and Swansea cannot qualify for Europe via their national association’s cup competition because they also play in the English competition so they no longer take part in it. Should CFC move to the English league you would have to assume the same would apply. Once again, Scottish football becomes devalued.
All this talk of Euro-leagues, etc., is bonkers. Without local and national rivalry, football will die. Yes, it would be great to see your Club playing the top teams in Europe every week but as PTD has already pointed out, would any Scottish club make it into the top 20 in Europe consistently?
Before we look to fix European football, can we sort out the fankle we have in Scotland first please?
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 1:21 pm
I would suggest it is not beyond the realms of possibility for some European MBA graduate to draw up a list firstly of their 10-14 favourites (by which I simply mean those whose agreement would be required to make the plan a reality). He would then need to draw up the div 2 invitees which would focus probably on geographical as well as population spread – 5 teams from London might be big enough for instance but, instead, 5 different teams spread across Europe with one of them being from southern England and one from ‘the North’ would increase potential viewing and marketing base even more you, and most certainly he, would think.
This principle could potentially work in CFC’s favour. This principle could be the most damaging for the remaining regional (ie. national) football leagues if they didn’t recognise it for what it would be.
scapaflow says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:00 am
22 2 Rate This
darkmoon says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:51 am
I suspect the costs would drive many away, either to solely watching on the TV, or to other levels. Personally, I think would be very bad for Scottish Football, and, ultimately bad for Celtic. the ££ signs are obscuring people’s vision.
_____________________
Focusing on the £££ signs IS obscuring people’s vision, but not in the way imagined.
All football clubs pay attention to their fans in the most basic of ways.
That is, bums on seats.
The stiffer the competition, the bigger the crowd.
If every club in Scotland had bumper crowds every week there would be no talk of any Scottish clubs trying join pastures new.
Take my club Celtic.
It’s not the board who is driving this move for change.
They are merely reacting to the fans’ actions.
v Barcelona…60,000, with thousands disappointed at not being able to buy a ticket, even though the game is live on TV.
v Motherwell…half, or even less than half that, even though the game is not on TV.
Fans attendance habits are driving the move to search for a more competitive league.
The fact that there will be more money earned is just a by product.
Angus1983 says: April 18, 2014 at 11:19 am
Danish – I also grew up in the East End. The East End of Portsoy. I assume that’s where you meant? 😉
……………………..
You write more like a Sandender
Danish Pastry says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:48 am
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An apology is required from me as well, just in case I am appearing to tar everyone with the same brush, which is clearly not the case. I gave an honest answer to your question, then went to the Supermarket with Mrs Upthehoops, during which I regretted possibly derailing the forum (you can see I was loving the Supermarket). No more from me on the subject, before TSFM kicks me sideways into the moderation thread.
Angus1983 says:
April 18, 2014 at 11:19 am
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Angus, see my post to Danish Pastry at 2:44PM. I really wish I hadn’t used this particular forum to express those views. We have other priorities to deal with.
Murray Metals was the first of the 2 biggest in the portfolio to go ,£120m for the first and the following year the other went for circa 96m,a few smaller companies where bought up at the time ,the buyer I think was a Mr M Guidi ,I think.
Phill asking awkward questions about funding the payroll, (again)
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/is-sevco-600000-short-of-making-payroll-this-month/#more-4567
Alan
Understand your argument, but I suspect ticket prices would increase dramatically for the Euro leagues. Also, I think the Celtic support is far more divided on this issue than many believe
What Celtic are now and what Celtic could be if given access to the barrel loads of cash available to others are two different things.
IMHO
Under a system controlled by FIFA/ UEFA the best Celtic can hope for is some 2nd Div Euro League spot, if the game goes down that road.
Under a franchise system owned and operated by the member clubs then they have much more chance of being invited to the party and being the ‘Green Bay Packers’ of a European Football League.
I have no problem with Celtic having ambitions just as long as they are honest about their intentions (as Lawwell seems to have been) and continue to talk up the Scottish game and represent it with pride and honour while they remain its most significant member club.
Once again Phil Mac being very specific in relation to his questions.
Pity we may never get to see any answers.
May just have to wait and see if no-one new comes in during the summer 🙂
SPFL – E19
Any Club which commits a Remuneration Default shall not, except with the consent
of the Board, be entitled or permitted to Register any Professional Player with the
League and the League shall not register such a Player until the Board is satisfied
that such Remuneration Default shall no longer continue or subsist.
Scapaflow – it could be part of the “brand” but that is just playing with words. It equally could be part of the heritable property or the strips. But in fact it is none of these things. Its a list of things that happened in the past that are located in the minds of those who remember them.
Smugas says:
April 18, 2014 at 1:52 pm
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Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 1:21 pm
This principle could potentially work in CFC’s favour. This principle could be the most damaging for the remaining regional (ie. national) football leagues if they didn’t recognise it for what it would be.
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Don’t disagree that CFC could benefit, it would almost certainly be in division 2 of any Euro league assuming they had a division 2, however, that isn’t the point IMHO.
You say that the regional/national leagues that don’t get on board would suffer, my concern is that they won’t be allowed to get on board for monetary reasons.
There are 56 national associations in UEFA and realistically, less than ten would be represented in a Euro-league. Right now, for those FAs who get teams directly into the group stages, they stand a chance of playing the top 16 in Europe. If we go down the Euro league route, does the Euro Cup disappear? Do the current National leagues also buy into losing their biggest clubs? Is their a division 2/3/4/5? How do clubs get relegated/promoted?
I can just see the EPL, La Liga, Bundesligue, etc., all happily allowing their largest earners to leave for Euro-vana.
The North American situation is a bit of a red herring I think so apologies for that. Geography and spread of population had a big say in how it came to pass and the NFL and NHL are relatively recent organisations and cater only for one or two countries not the 56 in UEFA.
Right now, I think UEFA are quite happy with the Champions League and are more concerned with the Europa League’s profile and standing. It can already be seen in the EPL that some clubs treat it almost the same as their League Cup (and indeed, many top EPL Clubs are now looking at the English FA Cup with a grimace).
I think for it to happen, we would need to see a quite radical shift in many areas, footballing and cultural and I would be happy to take a bet on it not happening in the next twenty years if at all.
Latest from Phil. Interesting. I am merely speculating here but has there been any meetings between Mr Regan, Mr Ogilvie, and Rangers Directors over the financial position, like there was during the Whyte reign?
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/is-sevco-600000-short-of-making-payroll-this-month/#more-4567
Campbellsmoney says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:06 pm
The rational part of me agrees with you, but the part of me that has to deal with marketing types on occasion sees the point of the “part of the intangible brand value” argument 😉
wottpi says:
April 18, 2014 at 2:51 pm
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Under a franchise system owned and operated by the member clubs then they have much more chance of being invited to the party and being the ‘Green Bay Packers’ of a European Football League.
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It would be great to see CFC (or indeed any professional football club) as a community owned club with a constitutional commitment to never leave it’s home town…
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:08 pm
You make the mistake of thinking FIFA/UEFA and national leagues could do a damn thing if certain big clubs wanted to leave to form a franchised league system .
It is the other way around. If say 20 big names wanted to go it alone it would be FIFA/UEFA who would be scrambling around trying to get a piece of the action and would try and keep their ethos of pyramid progression.
If the decision is ever taken to go it alone the big boys will want total control and in no way will they allow a system where a plucky team from a ‘minor’ league has the opportunity to crash the party based on results. Admittance will be on a strict ‘cash only’ basis 🙂
UEFA have fashioned the CL in such a way that it keeps the big boys happy. It is working just now but time may come when some decide they want even more.
Roddy Forsyth in The Telegraph hinting that contents of the 120 day review will be leaked, and stirring the debate surrounding Wallace’s salary and bonus.
“Nor should we forget about accountancy and stocktaking, dry arts which are transformed into burning controversies within the context of football, especially at Ibrox where Graham Wallace’s 120-day review has now been completed and is available, Telegraph Sport understands, for perusal in draft form by selected personnel within Rangers. It is due to be made public officially on April 25, although it will undoubtedly leak before then.
There was a commercial uptick at Ibrox this week, with the announcement of shirt sponsorship by online casino operators 32Red worth, as the Telegraph revealed, £600,000 per annum over two years with an option on a third year.
The word reaching me from within Ibrox is that the first year’s tranche is not quite sufficient to cover the chief executive’s annual salary plus 100 per cent performance bonus which is to be paid in August in cash, shares or both. I do not know if Graham Wallace is worth that or not – he will be judged on the contents of his review – but no doubt there will be a long queue of voluble supporters willing to venture an opinion.
And this is what passes for a quiet spell in Scottish football…”
Phil suggesting Rangers £600k short on this month’s payroll
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/is-sevco-600000-short-of-making-payroll-this-month/#more-4567
wottpi says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:24 pm
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Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:08 pm
You make the mistake of thinking FIFA/UEFA and national leagues could do a damn thing if certain big clubs wanted to leave to form a franchised league system .
It is the other way around. If say 20 big names wanted to go it alone it would be FIFA/UEFA who would be scrambling around trying to get a piece of the action and would try and keep their ethos of pyramid progression.
If the decision is ever taken to go it alone the big boys will want total control and in no way will they allow a system where a plucky team from a ‘minor’ league has the opportunity to crash the party based on results. Admittance will be on a strict ‘cash only’ basis
UEFA have fashioned the CL in such a way that it keeps the big boys happy. It is working just now but time may come when some decide they want even more.
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FIFA Could if they wanted to and quite easily because of the national game. Remember Kerry Packer? All FIFA would need to do is exclude players and/or associations from the World Cup…
And I don’t disagree with what the model will look like and UEFA’s current issues, however, I believe that it will take at least two generations of football fans to buy into it. I think for those who have grown up purely in the Champions League/EPL era, they would take to it reasonably quickly but the demographic on here and probably a couple below it will take some convincing and may even turn away from it.
Also, when it does happen, it will kill football in countries like ours IMHO. Having said that, sometimes death can be merciful…
Campbellsmoney,
Of course history cant be “bought” – who said it could? Chuck Green? Do me a favour…
What can be bought are entities that have history, like a football club. We of course all have our own opinion on that with regards to sevco.
upthehoops says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:09 pm
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Latest from Phil. Interesting. I am merely speculating here but has there been any meetings between Mr Regan, Mr Ogilvie, and Rangers Directors over the financial position, like there was during the Whyte reign?
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/is-sevco-600000-short-of-making-payroll-this-month/#more-4567
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Does this include PAYE?
just askin’, ken?
Resin_lab_dog says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:49 pm
Does this include PAYE?
just askin’, ken?
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We can only speculate but it’s an interesting question.
Campbellsmoney says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:51 am
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Regarding history
“History” is not an asset in Scots law. As such it cannot be transferred from A to B. If anyone thinks it can be transferred, perhaps they would be kind enough to explain the legal method of conveyance from A to B. And also explain why there is not one recorded example in Scots law of history transferring or one mention in any legal textbook. Or alternatively direct us to such an example.
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Perhaps the word we are looking for here is ‘honours’ rather than history.
Now I am sure there is precedent for knighthoods being ‘bought’ – albeit scandalous.
And what we have is TRFC – metaphorically – attaching the honorific ‘Sir’ to itself without the attendant kneeling at the palace, on the basis of being a bit of a lookalike for a dead peer of the realm.
The Honours of RFC(IL) and the debts of RFC(IL) are – in my mind – so intrinsically related as to be inseparable.
Para Handy says:
April 18, 2014 at 3:41 pm
Agree about the World Cup but that’s the only weapon/threat FIFA would have and it only comes around every four years.
Then take account that some great/expensive players don’t get a sniff at the tournament because they play for a ‘smaller’ nation. injury, falling out with the manager, short career etc etc
The NFL, NBA, NBL all regard themselves as World Champions.
There is a good chance in today’s mercenary world there are plenty of Gareth Bales who would be happy with a EFL champions medal and view themselves as a player in a World Championship winning side.
Of course the next phase would be to make it a world wide competition, remove the goals, turn the pitch into a velodrome, add skates and motorbikes and call it Rollerball 🙂
Seeing a lot of commentary on the possibility of Celtic leaving Scottish football, so I thought I might chip in with my own opinions on the matter.
Firstly (and most selfishly) I would rather we continue to be a big fish in a small pond. I have no desire to be a minnow in a shark tank. I love the fact that Scotland gives us regular access to Europe (whether CL or Europa league), and I would hate to give this up.
Secondly, I do not wish Celtic to become another soulless money team, throwing sickening amounts of money at average players and paying ridiculous transfer fees for the privelige. Frankly I think the rewards Celtic can currently offer players more than compensate for the shortness of their careers. First team regulars at Celtic will not have to worry about money once they retire, unless bad decisions are made.
Finally, and I feel very strongly about this part, Celtic owe Scottish football. Like it or not, being a Scottish club has enabled us to be where we are now (biggest team in the land, European pedigree etc etc). Our environment may not have always nurtured us, but it is, for better or worse, our home. I also feel that Celtic share some culpability with Rangers (IL) regarding the financial state of the game (prize money carve-ups, 11-1 voting etc). It is our duty and moral obligation as a member club to try and help repair and grow the Scottish game, not abandon it at the first opportunity.
I love my club, and would never support another, but if we were to abandon Scotland, I would feel obliged to turn my back on them 😥
Obviously I don’t have the answers to all our problems, but it is my firm belief that Celtic has a moral obligation to itself and everyone else to try and address them….as I previously stated, just my two cents.
OldBhoy99.
Just out of interest. Say CFC went off to play foot-the-ball in euro-vana (thanks paraH 😆 ) but left a colts side in Scotland. Lets assume the big team do what they do now – hold their own in Europe, just about. Presumably rules would be brought in to stop a direct financing from europe, from the big team to the small, but a colts team aint going to be no Montrose either. So a reasonably successful colts team remain playing in Scotland, sometimes even at 3pm on a saturday!!! Do you still turn your back?
Finloch says:
April 18, 2014 at 2:07 pm
You write more like a Sandender
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🙂 Surely you mean a Saniner? I spent many a happy summer day at Sanine beach, having walked over the hill fae Portsoy. Brilliant gun emplacement and tank traps. There was a great summer cafe in the old Church hall (I think it was) with a juke box and everything!
Smugas says:
April 18, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Good question Smugas. I think it would really come down to what we could still contribute to the Scottish game. I would happily support a colts team (whether successful or not), but only if I felt we could make a telling contribution to the improvement of the game off the pitch. If it were a scenario where all of Celtic’s resources and influence were directed into the larger team, with the colts a mere afterthought, I would not be in favour. For me, the issues I outlined previously are more complex than merely leaving or staying, I really want us to take a more active role in improving the game overall. Events over the last two years, and our apparent inertia, have fundamentally changed the way I view my own club.
I would never turn my back on Celtic, I couldn’t do that, I will always be a fan.
But if they moved to The EPL (for example), I would not spend any more money on them as I feel the players we have in Scotland are already being paid too much. I hate what the game has become in England and although I would love to see more games against quality players and to play in a league that provides a genuine season long challenge, I will never support a move outside of Scotland.
oldbhoy99 says:
April 18, 2014 at 4:36 pm
38 0 Rate This
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Heartwarming post @oldbhoy99.
21st century corporate fitba is doing my 20th century heid in.
When you hear clubs such as Arsenal complaining and Dortmund being defined, historically, and at present, as a bit of a feeder club, then CFC leaving just seems like madness — unless, of course, it’s only business.
Like you, I’d like to see them thoroughly committed to Scottish football and to its improvement, from grassroots to elite. And what an opportunity at this point in time. Yet, there’s a historic chance passing Parkhead while heads are being turned by rainbows and pots of gold a la Brian Stockbridge. Seems that way, at least.
A little light relief from the lad Mohsni (unfortunately “not a big name like Spanish Archer McCulloch”), talking in the Daily Record:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-defender-bilel-mohsni-id-3426558
I thought the poor fellow was simply a rubbish fitba player, but he appears to also be a marble or two short.
(P.S. Split infinitives, I love ’em. Use them whenever I can – it’s a nonsensical “rule” of grammar. 🙂 )
Danish Pastry says:
April 18, 2014 at 6:12 pm
Thanks for that Danish. I thoroughly agree that Celtic are missing some excellent opportunities at present, and it is disappointing. I think in part this is because the board probably do have one eye on potential escape routes, and if that is the case then growing/improving/reforming the game will be of secondary importance to them. An unfortunate fact of the modern game is that money seems to trump all other considerations, and I don’t really blame our board for that, but it is disheartening nonetheless.
European Football needs a strong Arbroath.
redlichtie says:
April 18, 2014 at 7:31 pm
European Football needs a strong Arbroath.
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Just about the first comment I’ve agreed with all day 😀
Don’t forget we need a strong Arbroath Colts team too.
redlichtie says:
April 18, 2014 at 7:31 pm
16 1 Rate This
European Football needs a strong Arbroath.
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Beautifully scripted, well said.
The only thing that stops a mega club league is not as drastic as exclusion from the world cups and all that, given enough dosh (remember this is about players on 50-300k a week) they won’t give a toss, it’s access to the whole mass of supporters and TV subscribers who follow the game. It’s very much in line with the only political ideology in town for the last 30 years (since Tony Benn perhaps?), vote for who you wish but you’re getting neo-liberalism regardless. Making the rich richer, commonly also dubbed “bettering themselves” on here, is not a crime and I don’t pretend that we’re suffering terribly from it but it has relied on the same pot of money to feed it as has been the case for most from the late 19th century: the masses. People get rich now and them by selling McLarens to other rich folk but the real rewards are in selling stuff (the product) to the whole public whether it’s banking, insurance, mortgages, burgers, TV…. or fitba. If all it took was for the really big clubs to set up their mega league then it would have been done by now but there’s only so much hype Sky/BT et al can generate for a harlem globetrotter league. They need the connection to community and to country. They need the culture that is really supporting a team as oppose to just watching it on the telly. They need it to be a sport otherwise it’s only showbiz. Without all that they will fold in short time and they know it. The battle lines are around how much of a cake and eat it solution will they get. They are quite right to go for the ideal (for them) solution. I hope and pray someone will stand up to them. I’m saddened that anyone is backing it.
Oh, and as for that being an anti-CFC view, behave yersel’, the same applies to Sevco, Manyoo and any other actual big team or wannabe.
Smugas – and that will be why lawyers become judges but advertising executives don’t.
Sorry Smugas re my last post – it wasn’t you – it was Scapaflow. Sun has gone to my head.
ernie says:
April 18, 2014 at 8:42 pm
It’s very much in line with the only political ideology in town for the last 30 years (since Tony Benn perhaps?), vote for who you wish but you’re getting neo-liberalism regardless. Making the rich richer, commonly also dubbed “bettering themselves” on here, is not a crime and I don’t pretend that we’re suffering terribly from it but it has relied on the same pot of money to feed it as has been the case for most from the late 19th century: the masses.
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Think Bilderberg Ernie. We are suffering from it. We are completely disenfranchised in real terms. That is a crime. And it manifests itself in every area of our lives, even in football re the powers that be. We have been debating this iniquitous situation re SFA, SMSM etc for two or three years now. What have we actually changed? Yes we must, and will, continue. It is very frustrating.
jean7brodie says:
April 18, 2014 at 9:35 pm
We have been debating this iniquitous situation re SFA, SMSM etc for two or three years now. What have we actually changed? Yes we must, and will, continue. It is very frustrating.
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Chin up, Jean. I suggest that many of those in the areas you mention are going through a well-earned crisis of confidence, evidenced by the less-than-minimal public profile of the Scottish game’s administrators, and the thin-skinned reactions from many of the complicit journalists when they receive even the most cursory of challenges to their world view. I’d also suggest that, if the bampotosphere didn’t exist, both groups would still be full of swagger, based on their near monopoly of information and their selective use of it.
Thanks Tartanwulver. I realise there is a slow drip feed of the truth into the wider community, maybe, but it is an uphill struggle and it shouldn’t be.
Anyway onwards and upwards and beware of us bampots ya Bilderbergers etc!!