Podcast Episode 3 – David Low

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Podcast Episode 3 – David Low

davidLowDavid Low

represents a highly significant component of the history of Celtic FC and consequently a highly significant component of how Scottish Football has panned out in the last 20 years.

As Fergus McCann’s Aide-de-Camp, Low was instrumental in helping him formulate and implement the plans which ultimately allowed control of the club to be wrested from the Kelly and White families. Low also helped McCann to rebuild and regenerate Celtic as a modern football club.

His views are unsurprisingly Celtic-centred, and this interview reveals his ambition for the club to ultimately leave Scottish Football behind. That may or may not be at odds with many of our readers, but the stark analysis of the realities facing football in this country may resonate.

Podcast LogoHe provides a window on the pragmatism of the likes of McCann, Celtic and many other clubs in respect of the demise of Rangers. He pours scorn on Dave King’s vision of a cash-rich Rangers future, and provides little comfort for those who seek succour for our failing national sport, believing that Scotland will find it impossible to emerge from the football backwater in an increasingly global industry.

Agree or not with Low’s prognosis, it is difficult to deny his compelling analysis of our place in the football world.

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About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,066 Comments so far

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Madbhoy24941Posted on4:39 pm - May 4, 2014


andygraham.66 says:

May 4, 2014 at 12:00 pm

The Sunderland unregistered player issue has resurfaced as the teams affected are starting to drop out the gravy train League

——————————————-

The interesting thing for me was watching 2 pundits on national TV discussing the matter this morning, the main points being argued were not the rules, both agreed they were at best “wishy, washy” but they were the rules.

No, the main point was transparency, if all teams agreed to a set of rules at the start of the season and the rules were applied then there should be no complaint. More importantly, if the rules were applied correctly then the EPL have no fears in disclosing how they treated Sunderland.

More pleasing for me was that the pundits could discuss it on TV without fear or favour, openly questioning roles played by The EPL and EFA. We don’t see enough of that in Scotland.

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burghbhoyPosted on4:49 pm - May 4, 2014


Allyjambo,

I adopted a Celtic moniker in order to have my contributions to the discussion judged on their merits, rather than be prejudged as coming from a Rangers fan. And, with a sprinkling of “sevcos”, it worked, as this post from a month ago proves…

http://www.tsfm.net/podcast-3/comment-page-1/#comment-16672

I am not a troll. As my twitter account @bryce9a is testament to, i enjoy discussing this particular issue and simply wished to discuss the matters fairly, without my contributions being immediately tarnished by the anti-Rangers prejudice.

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SmugasPosted on4:50 pm - May 4, 2014


Essex,

I think you mean the Hansen disaster don’t you? Willie was just doing what Willie did best. In fact the only shock to me was that he didn’t get Hansen sent off for being a tw@t!

(Joking apart, there is more than anecdotal evidence that regret for that fc’up lasted with Miller for months if not years. With Hansen I understand it rarely made it beyond the final whistle).

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CastofthousandsPosted on4:51 pm - May 4, 2014


John Clark says:
May 4, 2014 at 1:56 am

“…and how the ethereal essence of a being is somehow solid enough to bear the weight of ‘trophies and history’ BUT not the weight of the debts and disgrace that caused it to die.”
————————————–
Perhaps it was the lateness of the hour but your frustration seemed to be blunted to indignation thus giving rise to that poetic piece of prose from which I have borrowed a snippet for illustration.

I sometimes think the Bard’s wistful way of phraseology owed much to the necessity of the situation rather than any ingrained genius, which only resulted as a consequence.

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SmugasPosted on4:54 pm - May 4, 2014


I wonder which came first. An unpalatable truth, or the fact it was anti rangers?

Just saying, randomly. 🙄

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CastofthousandsPosted on5:19 pm - May 4, 2014


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:44 am

“It seems no-one from the SFA or the former SPL will admit to using the word Armageddon two years ago,..”
—————————————————
I was listening to that Off the Ball episode and went hunting on RTC afterward to see if I could espy the crack of dawn on that expression. To my surprise I couldn’t find a comment after 2/11/2011. Now I know I was reading RTC during February 2012 (how could it be forgotten) so I’m not sure if my stupid alter ego is in play or if there is something amiss with the website. Any observations might help satisfy my curiosity.

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on5:29 pm - May 4, 2014


Cast, almost all of the RTC blogs were taken down on the day the FTTT result was announced. Some but far from all the blog posts and comments were returned later. Unless things have changed since I last looked that is still the case. Even “the wayback machine” of google archiving has very little of the extensive postings on RTC

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Madbhoy24941Posted on5:38 pm - May 4, 2014


“Anti-Rangerness” seems to be confused with being against anything unsporting that Rangers partake in; unfortunately, some are not looking at why so many from different backgrounds have a shared dislike for these factors.

A perfect example are the views held by Angus, Arabest, the 2 Jambos and many of the posters that follow the so-called, small teams. As far as I can see, they have a shared dislike for Celtic and Rangers. For different reasons I am sure but they share at least one common cause, for years both of these clubs acted as if they were all that mattered to Scottish football and the other teams were just the supporting cast.

So for the Rangers fans out there, imagine being one of them, having the impossible task of competing financially with Celtic and Rangers for the last 30 years only to find out that one of them also cheated to gain an even bigger advantage.

You call it Anti-Rangers or see them (us) as “Rangers Haters”, could it be something simpler and less partisan, could it just be that we just do not like cheats and to then be accused of being haters because we show disapproval?

I would suggest the hating will stop if the superiority complex disappears, maybe not immediately but it could grow……

P.S. What a performance today by a team already relegated and severely hindered by recent Financial mismanagement, hats off to Hearts over the last months!

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scottc

scottcPosted on5:44 pm - May 4, 2014


Madbhoy24941 says:
May 4, 2014 at 5:38 pm

P.S. What a performance today by a team already relegated and severely hindered by recent Financial mismanagement, hats off to Hearts over the last months!

Hearts would be sitting 8th if it were not for the penalty. Gary Locke should be applauded. They will be a real force in the Championship next year

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on5:56 pm - May 4, 2014


Highfibre

I have repeatedly said the two following things:-

1 TUPE is irrelevant to the oldclub/newclub debate; and
2 the definition of “club” employed by the football authorities in their various (and internally inconsistent) rules and articles over the years bears no relation to the legal meaning of “club” in Scots law.

However you have said it far more eloquently and forcefully than I ever have by referencing Mattel and the rules of Scrabble.

Chapeau (14 points)

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essexbeancounterPosted on5:57 pm - May 4, 2014


Castofthousands says:

I sometimes think the Bard’s wistful way of phraseology owed much to the necessity of the situation rather than any ingrained genius, which only resulted as a consequence.
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COT…”rather than any ingrained genius” …what a brave knave art thou…and on a Sunday…even greater heresy in the eyes of him…no not that Him, JC(e) of course!

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CastofthousandsPosted on5:58 pm - May 4, 2014


burghbhoy says:
May 4, 2014 at 4:49 pm

“And, with a sprinkling of “sevcos”, it worked, as this post from a month ago proves… ”
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I don’t think you’ve proved anything of the sort. If this is your burden of proof then I would be disdainful of any of your assertions.

Glancing at the comment it is intensely detailed and was probably given thumbs up for effort. The appearance of ‘Sevco’s’ likely made no difference at all to your comments reception. I nearly always refer to Rangers as Rangers unless a distinction needs to be made. Different posters have adopted different styles based on their perspective but I doubt very much that their input is graded purely on the moniker they apply to the Club that plays out of Ibrox. The thumbs are there for a guide. It’s the opinion that matters.

GoosyGoosy made a point above @ 8.40 pm concerning the value of Graham Wallace’ bonus and salary and whether this indicated his involvement with Rangers was disingenuous. What are your thoughts on this speculation?

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on6:17 pm - May 4, 2014


I noticed there has been a couple of mentions of the regular poster angus1983.

Sadly I’ve been told he’s been banned or had posting restrictions applied 😕

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AquinasPosted on6:22 pm - May 4, 2014


Burghbhoy, I understand your reasoning, it’s a bit sneaky, don’t you think so?
If you suspect you wont get the answers you want you ‘pull a stunt’ to achieve TU.
That sort of ‘ting’ rings a bell, I find your ploy quite amusing realy, cheating at blogging! Hahaha, a new first?

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James DolemanPosted on6:26 pm - May 4, 2014


burghbhoy says:
May 4, 2014 at 4:49 pm
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Clearly the truth must have an anti-Rangers bias, hence your need to deceive.

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on6:27 pm - May 4, 2014


Castofthousands says:
May 4, 2014 at 5:19 pm

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:44 am

“It seems no-one from the SFA or the former SPL will admit to using the word Armageddon two years ago,..”
—————————————————
I was listening to that Off the Ball episode and went hunting on RTC afterward to see if I could espy the crack of dawn on that expression. To my surprise I couldn’t find a comment after 2/11/2011. Now I know I was reading RTC during February 2012 (how could it be forgotten) so I’m not sure if my stupid alter ego is in play or if there is something amiss with the website. Any observations might help satisfy my curiosity.

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com

______________________________________________________

Was digging through some old Jim Traynor articles in the Record. (Personal protectiove equipment required).
With hindsight, the man is shown up to be a shameless partisan without hint of oracle.
Doesn’t iuse the ‘A’ word.
But paints the picture and colours it in.

Yuk!

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/if-spl–sfl-kick-gers-1189367

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justshatered

justshateredPosted on6:34 pm - May 4, 2014


Campbellsmoney says:
May 4, 2014 at 5:56 pm

Sorry TUPE is not relevant?
I may not be up to speed on the law but does TUPE not protect worker’s rights and conditions in a buyout of assets such as this?

If TUPE is irrelevant then why was the new entity not forced to buy these assets also as, by football law, they clearly were not the Administrators to sell. At the point of liquidation the players contracts used to revert to the league or is this just another rule that has a “at the discretion of the board” caveat?

This would mean that the creditors were stiffed yet again.

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Madbhoy24941Posted on6:34 pm - May 4, 2014


Bill1903 says:

May 4, 2014 at 6:17 pm

I noticed there has been a couple of mentions of the regular poster angus1983.

Sadly I’ve been told he’s been banned or had posting restrictions applied 😕

—————————————-

To be fair, he was given plenty of warnings about supporting Aberdeen, no good can ever come from that 😆

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pau1mart1nPosted on6:52 pm - May 4, 2014


“And, with a sprinkling of “sevcos”, it worked”

is that from Charles Greens magic recipe book ??

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on7:02 pm - May 4, 2014


justshatered says:

May 4, 2014 at 6:34 pm

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Campbellsmoney says:
May 4, 2014 at 5:56 pm

Sorry TUPE is not relevant?
I may not be up to speed on the law but does TUPE not protect worker’s rights and conditions in a buyout of assets such as this?

If TUPE is irrelevant then why was the new entity not forced to buy these assets also as, by football law, they clearly were not the Administrators to sell. At the point of liquidation the players contracts used to revert to the league or is this just another rule that has a “at the discretion of the board” caveat?

This would mean that the creditors were stiffed yet again.
———————————————————————————————————–
Sorry if I was unclear.

I mean that it is irrelevant to the debate about oldclub/newclub – not that it is irrelevant to the transfer between oldco and newco that was effected by the administrators. Of course it has relevance to that. That was a TUPE transfer.

While I am on, a poster the other day (sorry not sure who it was now) asked how I can state with certainty that it was a TUPE transfer – was there any documentation/certification – whatever – to validate this assertion.

The answer is that no there is never any such certification (unless an Employment Tribunal/court has to rule on the matter). The answer can only be arrived at by looking at what happened and determining (by looking at the TUPE Regs) whether what happened was a transfer for TUPE purposes.

There is no way that what was sold by the administrators to Sevco could not give rise to a TUPE transfer.

The most common situations whereby a court or Tribunal is asked to rule on this arise where an employee contends that a TUPE transfer has taken place but an employer denies this. In the situation at Ibrox, there is no need for that as the employees of Oldco are all at Newco (save those who exercised their right not to transfer) or any who were made redundant before the transfer (not sure if anyone was – I don’t recall any redundancies).

Frankly, anyone who tried to argue before a Tribunal that what took place was not a TUPE transfer would be laughed out of court.

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easyJamboPosted on7:07 pm - May 4, 2014


torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:44 am

“It seems no-one from the SFA or the former SPL will admit to using the word Armageddon two years ago,..”
============================
The first reference was by Neil Doncaster in Dec 2010, when saying the relegated sides would face “financial Armageddon without League reconstruction.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1338087/Neil-Doncaster-urges-SPL-clubs-grab-cash-lifeline.html

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster guaranteed to save relegated teams from ‘financial armageddon’ as he attempts to push through radical changes to Scotland’s elite league.

Stewart Regan repeated it in July 2012 re the SPL clubs voting not to admit Sevco to the SPL. It was the same interview that talked about social unrest.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-in-crisis-we-cant-punish-41-1166073

“We are faced with a situation that some say is Meltdown and some say Armageddon.

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Bill1903

Bill1903Posted on7:11 pm - May 4, 2014


Madbhoy24941 says:
May 4, 2014 at 6:34 pm
7 1 Rate This

To be fair, he was given plenty of warnings about supporting Aberdeen, no good can ever come from that
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I’m considering a name change to bhill1903 or bill1888 just to fit in obviously 😳

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SmugasPosted on7:13 pm - May 4, 2014


Mad bhoy

You forgot the personal expense, time and wasted emotional effort of following a Diddy side which didn’t involve playing the rest of the league where 80% of the teams were little more than a taxi ride away. Factor that in and you’re halfway to understanding our disgust not to mention surprise that our in built hatred for two big teams ( just because they’re big) could have been extended by the knowledge that one cheek was cheating, that it was assisted and supported by the powers that be and that somewhere in there even our own clubs at the very least looked the other way. Factor all of that in and you’re at least in the foothills of understanding our chip engorged shoulders!

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upthehoopsPosted on7:20 pm - May 4, 2014


Very interesting result at Tynecastle today. Moving on from the point Hearts first entered Admin it is hard to find fault how the process has been handled, both by the club and the fans. Into the bargain, results like today suggest there may be a bright future ahead with their young team. A couple of experienced older heads in there and they will certainly be a force in the Championship.

Despite the wrongs of financial mismanagement that forces clubs into Adminstration in the first place, Hearts have been a model on how to deal with it.

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neepheid

neepheidPosted on7:32 pm - May 4, 2014


Latest from James Forrest:

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-end-of-everything/

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No1 BobPosted on7:35 pm - May 4, 2014


http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/soccer/Kenny+Miller+leaving+Whitecaps/9805905/story.html

Where next for Kenny Miller?

Has he already been given the nod from Ally?

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on8:02 pm - May 4, 2014


Regardless of the financial difficulties Rangers are in, the efforts which will undoubtedly be taking place to sign Kenny Miller speak to an appalling lack of any football strategy or vision. Signing a once very good but now pretty old former player, probably on tasty wages, with absolutely no resale value is utterly pointless and shows that under the current thinking both on and off the pitch Rangers sadly appear to be hell bent on recycling past errors for no discernible purpose.

Sorry if this kind of post belongs on a Rangers site rather than here, and I get annoyed when fans of other teams post such things here but I’m just making an exception this time, apologies. I know there has not yet been a suggestion that attempts to sign Kenny Miller for Rangers will be made, but I think we all know that story is coming. Call me ageist but a team in Rangers position should be trying to build a squad of young players to be sold on to bigger and richer clubs, not endlessly trying to sign washed up former heroes looking for one last big pay day that their waning talents no longer justify.

Rant over.

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Bam Potter

Bam PotterPosted on8:08 pm - May 4, 2014


UpTheHoops @ 7.20pm:

Hearts in administration have been a model of how all Scottish clubs should have been operating since the mid-90’s. Bringing young players into the first team mixed with a few experienced heads, teaching them how to compete with senior professionals, living within tight budget constraints, and selling where selling was necessary. Heck, that’s how the largest club in the country operates nowadays! It’s a shame that it required administration for the Tynecastle outfit to resume this approach, which seemed to work quite well for them in the mid-to-late 90s. (Locke as a player was a part of a good, young Hearts squad featuring at various points the likes of Gary Naysmith, Paul Ritchie, Allan McLaren, Scott Severin, Grant Murray, David Weir, Colin Cameron, Neil McCann, and Allan Johnston – not all world beaters nor all Hearts youth products, but many good professionals who advanced their careers significantly at Hearts.)

My hope for Hearts is that they learn the lessons and stick to this approach in the future, and my hope for Scottish football is that the rest of the teams take note and do likewise.

Scottish football needs a strong youth policy.

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easyJamboPosted on8:13 pm - May 4, 2014


burghbhoy says: May 4, 2014 at 4:49 pm

I am not a troll. As my twitter account @bryce9a is testament to, i enjoy discussing this particular issue and simply wished to discuss the matters fairly, without my contributions being immediately tarnished by the anti-Rangers prejudice.
===========================
Hi bryce9a – Welcome back

In your justification for your same club/history argument you highlighted that Hearts had been liquidated in 1905.

You were kind enough, at the time, to show an extract from the Edinburgh Gazette from the period which showed two resolutions that were passed at an EGM on 28th Mar 1905, Resolution 1 – a voluntary winding up order, Resolution 2 – the appointment of liquidators.

However I am sure that you are aware that there was another resolution passed at that meeting which was also recorded in the Edinburgh Gazette, but for some reason you chose not to share it with us.

Could it be that Resolution 3 provided details of the legal mechanism by which Hearts oldco and newco would be deemed the same?

Just for the record :
Resolution 3 – That the draft Agreement submitted to this meeting and expressed to be between the old company on one part, and the new company of the other part, BE AND THE SAME (my emphasis) is hereby approved, and that the said liquidator be and is hereby authorised , pursuant of section 161 of the Company Act 1862, to enter into the Agreement, in the terms of the said Draft, and to carry the same into effect, with such (if any) modifications as he may think expedient.

Now what are the provisions of section 161 of the Company Act 1862?
Well it dealt with the reconstruction of companies, and provided that the THREE resolutions as above are passed, the agreement would allow the transfer of all the assets of the oldco to the newco, along with an undertaking by the newco to take on all the debts and liabilities of the oldco, pay all the associated winding up and liquidators costs for the oldco, and pay off the interests of any dissenting shareholders of the oldco.

What did Hearts do?
Well I sure that it is not a surprise to you that the liquidator and Hearts newco did everything required of them under section 161 of the Company Act of 1862, and took on and paid off all the debts of the oldco in a short period of time.

In short, under the law at the time Hearts were able to “be and the same” by taking on the debts and liabilities in their entirety.

As a result I am comfortable to look back at Hearts history as having continuity back to 1874.

I’m unaware of any other football club having made such a commitment in recent times.

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wottpiPosted on8:13 pm - May 4, 2014


No sure if others are in the same boat but I know I spend far too much time on posting drivel on this site, where the topics of conversation and the input from others genuinely interest me.
I often think I need to get a life as I have other more important things to be getting on with.

If I ever get the to stage where my interest in football ends up with me trying to ‘infiltrate’ this site or similar forums via various pseudonyms for the sake of an argument or ‘experiment’ then you all have my permission to take me out and shoot me.

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ecobhoyPosted on8:13 pm - May 4, 2014


essexbeancounter says:
May 4, 2014 at 2:05 pm

Secondly, thanks for the memories. We also used to ‘borrow’ our school’s new video (VHS or Betamax, can’t recall) for what I will euphamistically and very loosely call ‘innovative french lessons.’
======================================================================
Smugas…and before such ground-breaking technology was available, we modern language students had to make do with the Cosmo cinema, just off Sauchiehall St…particularly on wet Wednesday afternoons which were designated “sports days” at Strathclyde University (Echobhoy will back me up…won’t you Echobhoy?)
=============================
I have no echoes at all from this past – either auditory or visual – that I am prepared to admit to 😆

What I do recall is that when the Royal College of Science & Technology was granted Yooni status then in first year you had to pass the equivalent of a French Lower by attending night classes at Pitt Street. That was never a requirement previously required for the guys who designed the famous ships built on Clydeside.

As a double language Higher Student it meant I could attend the Cosmo for the more serious business of winching and not watching the arty farty subtitled French films .

Btw Wednesday afternoons weren’t just ‘sports day’ for Strathclyde but for all Scottish Unis so they could compete with each other.

However Essex as you and I know – we sadly both spent more time in the snug of The Griffin than exercising our tonsil skills and developing a French palate – well that’s my story and I’m sticking to it 🙄

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on8:19 pm - May 4, 2014


Easyjambo I’ve seen this being discussed here before and the question it always raises for me is what was the need for the newco? If the newco bought all the assets and paid all the debts and passed the last resolution you highlighted showing that they were the same entity, why not just pay off the debts and carry on? Was it because liquidation proceedings were already under way?

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Madbhoy24941Posted on8:26 pm - May 4, 2014


RyanGosling says:

May 4, 2014 at 8:02 pm

————————————————-

Bringing a player like Miller is not too bad an idea, young players need experienced pros alongside, especially ones that are not afraid to take the ball during times of pressure. He fits the bill.

The problem is not the player or his age, it’s how much he is paid that is relevant. If Rangers offer him a low salary or pay as you play contract to see out his playing days and he accepts, then I would see that as a great piece of business.

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wottpiPosted on8:31 pm - May 4, 2014


RyanGosling says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:02 pm

As opposed to all the talk of the possibility of signing Miller, who I have much respect for, should the conversation not be why McCoist doesn’t have this year’s PFA Championship Player of the Year (21 goals in 34 games) in his squad for next year’s tilt at the Championship.
Of course he could resign the lad. I wonder how much that would cost now??

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upthehoopsPosted on8:33 pm - May 4, 2014


neepheid says:
May 4, 2014 at 7:32 pm
Latest from James Forrest:

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-end-of-everything/
==================================================
It does seem weird that the option of administration and an affordable points loss this season has been spurned. Or will there be one final rallying call of ‘buy your season tickets or we go under?’

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briggsbhoyPosted on8:39 pm - May 4, 2014


Ryan

I’m with Madbhoy as I believe Miller could still do a bit for any team in Scotland’s top league and he would be a good experienced player if he went to ibrox. That said I do understand where you are coming from and in the current situation is maybe just paper talk, we are of course approaching the silly season for signing targets.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on8:43 pm - May 4, 2014


Easyjambo

Reluctant though I am to enter a debate on company resolutions from more than 100 years ago that I have not seen, the words you have highlighted refer to the agreement – not the companies.

We still use similar wording now in shareholder resolutions (and this looks to me like an old fashioned Members Voluntary Liquidation).

It should be read as – “The draft agreement submitted to the meeting……….be and the same is hereby approved”.

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on9:03 pm - May 4, 2014


ecobhoy says:

May 4, 2014 at 8:13 pm

Ecobhoy please desist, you have taken my memories back twice now. 😛

The Griffin very handy at lunchtime (just a short walk up Elmbank Street) from 314 St Vincent Street where I worked. The Griffin was three pubs at that time, and if my memory serves me, the Griffinette, Griffin, and Griffini.
I remember standing at the bar “getting them in” when a voice I recognised on my right requested a round, when I looked I was face to face with the Reverend I M Jolly, fresh from a stint at the Kings.
I think I muttered, oh hello, and moved on.
I am also sure this was the first pub I had been in with a sign in the entrance “NO FOOTBALL COLOURS”

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wottpiPosted on9:08 pm - May 4, 2014


Smugas says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:51 pm

I keep forgetting the VAT so don’t you forget IA was also thinking about his costs so he may be trying to ring fence £620k. Or to put it another way 1550 punters at £400 per ST.

Interestingly the precedent of the Martin Bain case was that Lord Hodge held back £480k not on the basis that Rangers were at the time insolvent “either practically or absolutely” but he was concerned with the degree of possibility and “not actuality or even probability of insolvency”.

Different issues given the BTC but the decision will be interesting to see if Lord Tyre follows the same argument and if he ring fences in favour of IA then what does that say about the ‘degree of possibility’ of insolvency?

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berrtyPosted on9:30 pm - May 4, 2014


Been a long time lurker but with very few posts as I haven’t really had anything to say that would add to the debate. Hearts this season have shown Rangers exactly what they should have been doing for the past 2 years. Couple of experienced pros and the rest kids. Next season will see a very strong Hearts (providing they can keep their current team together) now that they have the experience from this season to fall back on. I actually think Hearts will win the Championship comfortably next season and provide a strong opponent in the cup for any of the top sides.

P.S. I’m a dons fan

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Cluster One

Cluster OnePosted on9:36 pm - May 4, 2014


ecobhoy says:

May 4, 2014 at 8:13 pm
winching 🙂
woodstein says:

May 4, 2014 at 9:03 pm
Ecobhoy please desist, you have taken my memories back twice now.

It’s not football related but thanks also for taking me back

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upthehoopsPosted on9:37 pm - May 4, 2014


On the subject of a possible Kenny Miller return to Ibrox. I love the way, at least in the media, that players like Miller and Boyd are discussed in a way as if they can’t go to any other club. Why can’t Miller go back to Easter Road for example? Butcher will be re-shaping the team and Hibs are in far better financial health than Rangers. Likewise why can’t Boyd go to Aberdeen?

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easyJamboPosted on9:46 pm - May 4, 2014


RyanGosling says: May 4, 2014 at 8:19 pm

Easyjambo I’ve seen this being discussed here before and the question it always raises for me is what was the need for the newco? If the newco bought all the assets and paid all the debts and passed the last resolution you highlighted showing that they were the same entity, why not just pay off the debts and carry on? Was it because liquidation proceedings were already under way?
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Basically, the oldoco owners were unable to pay their debts (approx £1,400), therefore the club was unable to trade and going out of business.

I don’t know for sure why the newco solution was chosen rather than just taking over the oldco, but it may just be the way that insolvencies worked at that time (e.g. were CVAs available ???). The more important thing to me looking back at the historical reference is that the newco obviously wanted to be the same as the oldco, hence the invocation of section 161 of the Company Act of 1862. Otherwise the newco could have done a Sevco and distanced itself from the liabilities of the oldco.

Cambellsmoney – I’m sure your legal/insolvency experience means that your interpretation is correct. (from what you say I assume that “be and the same” therefore means the the agreement was unchanged from that which was submitted to the EGM) However, the agreement was between the Oldco and Newco, with the reconstruction implemented under the company law of the time, as referenced above.

I tried to find the text of the 1862 Act, but could only find the following reference.

http://i.imgur.com/qT2YekB.jpg (start at “In order to carry out a reconstruction under s 161)

My question would be that if there was not a desire to “be and the same” (Company), then why go to the bother of taking on the debts and liabilities of the oldco.

Maybe the answer lies in the SFA’s or Scottish League’s rules in 1905. Is there anyone on the blog who was around at the time, and might have a copy? 🙂

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on10:07 pm - May 4, 2014


Easyjambo

if I were seeking to get shareholder approval for an agreement, the resolution I would draft would say:-
“That the agreement between X and Y, in the form presented to the meeting, a copy of which is attached to this resolution and initialled by the chairman for the purposes of identification only, be, and hereby is, approved.”

As you will see its virtually the same wording.

Its an interesting question as to why they might have wanted to do this. The company law landscape was quite different back then. There might have been a reason back then that simply wouldn’t apply any more. However most solvent reconstructions are done for tax reasons though.

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John ClarkPosted on10:33 pm - May 4, 2014


easyJambo says:
May 4, 2014 at 9:46 pm
‘….I tried to find the text of the 1862 Act, but could only find the following reference..’
——–
EJ, if I have done it right, the full text of the1862 Companie act is at this link.
You have to click on GO to turn the pages and on the two vertical lines to ‘Pause’-took me some minutes to find that out!
https://archive.org/stream/companiesactwit00pulbgoog#page/n24/mode/2up

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easyJamboPosted on10:54 pm - May 4, 2014


John Clark says: May 4, 2014 at 10:33 pm
————————–
Thanks JC I’ll look at it later

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BigGavPosted on10:59 pm - May 4, 2014


Easyjambo, “the same” in this context is just a legalese synonym for ‘the aforesaid’, ie the thing previously mentioned, the agreement. It is nothing to do with the two companies being in some way the same.

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McCaig`s TowerPosted on11:01 pm - May 4, 2014


easyJambo says:

May 4, 2014 at 7:07 pm
The first reference was by Neil Doncaster in Dec 2010, when saying the relegated sides would face “financial Armageddon without League reconstruction.
————————————————————————————–

So the “Armageddon” quote originates in a reference to the cliff-edge between SPL and SFL finances, but quickly became wilfully or accidentally misquoted in a new context, that of justifying a proposed breach in “sporting integrity” (to misquote another popular phrase)?

I think the original point is fair – I’ve long thought that the huge disparity between the rewards on offer in the SPL and those on offer in the SFL (there must have been a 10 fold increase in prize-money, and perhaps a doubling in turnover?) was one reason middle ranking clubs spent money they couldn’t afford on trying to get promotion or avoid relegation. That and the need (partially justified, no doubt) for costly upgrades to stadia caused huge holes in clubs’ balance sheets that are taking years to rectify.

Speaking of Armageddon, East End Park drew 7500 for a reserve fixture yesterday. (I’m being slightly facetious – Jim Jefferies changed his entire starting eleven from those who had won at Arbroath, playing 9 laddies and 2 old men). Maybe I’ve become old and cynical, or maybe it’s been our near-death experience, but I find it far more pleasurable and rewarding to see some young lad make his debut, or score his first goal, than see some expensive “big name” do the same.

Anyway, there was a “red card” protest from the visiting fans in the 65th minute (and apparently there was one in the first half as well, although I missed it). I assume this was a “sack the board” thing, rather than advice to the referee who appeared to have missed Mohsni throwing a punch at Goodfellow, as it was coupled with a lot of pithy advice direct towards Mr (or Messrs) Easdale. I’m not sure why they are being singled out, but it seemed to me that the majority of the away fans were participating in the card holding at least.

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essexbeancounterPosted on11:04 pm - May 4, 2014


y4rmy says:

May 4, 2014 at 1:20 pm
As a Norwich fan I have to say…
========================================================
Yarmy…just returned from a lovely Sunday evening in the Epping Forest…three pints of Adnam’s Broadside raised to your side, albeit in the sadness of relegation (?).
So sweet to see Chelski lose two big ones in a few days!
Me bad?

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essexbeancounterPosted on11:19 pm - May 4, 2014


ecobhoy says:

May 4, 2014 at 8:13 pm
=============================
I have no echoes at all from this past – either auditory or visual – that I am prepared to admit to 😆
What I do recall is that when the Royal College of Science & Technology was granted Yooni status then in first year you had to pass the equivalent of a French Lower by attending night classes at Pitt Street. That was never a requirement previously required for the guys who designed the famous ships built on Clydeside.

As a double language Higher Student it meant I could attend the Cosmo for the more serious business of winching and not watching the arty farty subtitled French films .

Btw Wednesday afternoons weren’t just ‘sports day’ for Strathclyde but for all Scottish Unis so they could compete with each other.

However Essex as you and I know – we sadly both spent more time in the snug of The Griffin than exercising our tonsil skills and developing a French palate – well that’s my story and I’m sticking to it 🙄
===================================================================
Ecobhoy…you pluck at more than my heartstrings on this one…but I think I have your moral backing at least as to all things Cosmo/Strathclyde/Wednesday pm/Griffin Snug.
I am off to bed now with all those memories, and if I cannot get to sleep, I will enjoy them again!
PS… so by default you admit to being a “plumber”…from the ‘Tec…LOL!

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essexbeancounterPosted on11:28 pm - May 4, 2014


woodstein says:

May 4, 2014 at 9:03 pm
Ecobhoy please desist, you have taken my memories back twice now. 😛
The Griffin very handy at lunchtime (just a short walk up Elmbank Street) from 314 St Vincent Street where I worked. The Griffin was three pubs at that time, and if my memory serves me, the Griffinette, Griffin, and Griffini.
===================================================================
Woodstein…you must have been dying of thirst when you got there!…my office was a mere six doors away at 276 Bath St on the same side…so we had “season tickets ” to the Griffin (Griffiinette and Griffin were for softies.) We certainly saw some celebs in our time!
Ps now I have blown my cover to Paulsatim…ah well….ICAS disciplinary measures beckon…again!

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on11:38 pm - May 4, 2014


upthehoops says:
May 4, 2014 at 9:37 pm

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On the subject of a possible Kenny Miller return to Ibrox. I love the way, at least in the media, that players like Miller and Boyd are discussed in a way as if they can’t go to any other club. Why can’t Miller go back to Easter Road for example? Butcher will be re-shaping the team and Hibs are in far better financial health than Rangers. Likewise why can’t Boyd go to Aberdeen?

___________________________________________

I am afraid I must reluctantly side with the :slamb: on this one.
“Why can’t Miller go back to Easter Road for example?”
Easy.
Butcher and Malpas have a very sound understanding of what players are worth and what they should be paid. There are still players at Caley signed by those 2 for peanuts playing for buttons and doing the badge proud, and loving their football.
That is where that management team really adds value in fact.
Ally McCoist on the other hand…

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on11:46 pm - May 4, 2014


briggsbhoy says:
May 4, 2014 at 8:39 pm

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Ryan

I’m with Madbhoy as I believe Miller could still do a bit for any team in Scotland’s top league and he would be a good experienced player if he went to ibrox. That said I do understand where you are coming from and in the current situation is maybe just paper talk, we are of course approaching the silly season for signing targets.

________________________________________

Some of this will be agent PR fluff as well.
Linking Miller with TRFC is an easy way of shop windowing him in the red tops to anyone looking for a free agent.

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blackjacquePosted on12:15 am - May 5, 2014


Off Topic
A world class scottish athlete died today
Elena Baltacha. Sad news.

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John ClarkPosted on12:24 am - May 5, 2014


essexbeancounter says:
May 4, 2014 at 11:28 pm
‘…so we had “season tickets ” to the Griffin ‘
————-
Am I wholly mistaken, or was that fabled animal/bird not done at one time ( early/middle 1970s?) for having permitted to be consumed on the premises some non-alcoholic, but also non-licensed, baccy-related refreshment?
Or was that a hallucinatory figment of my imagination?
As if!

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South0fThe BorderPosted on12:26 am - May 5, 2014


essexbeancounter says: May 4, 2014 at 11:04 pm
Yarmy…just returned from a lovely Sunday evening in the Epping Forest…three pints of Adnam’s Broadside raised to your side
______________________________________
A bit OT but if we’re discussing pubs in a misspent youth – Essex – were you at the Forest Gate in Bell Common? Drank there a few times whilst they built the M25 through the nearby cricket pitch – they were very considerate and covered it over to form a tunnel and restored the cricket pitch on top!

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woodstein

woodsteinPosted on12:59 am - May 5, 2014


essexbeancounter says:

May 4, 2014 at 11:28 pm
“you must have been dying of thirst when you got there!…”

Worked one up, and the length of the walk timed it to perfection. 😛

John Clark says:

May 5, 2014 at 12:24 am

Am I wholly mistaken, or was that fabled animal/bird not done at one time ( early/middle 1970s?) for having permitted to be consumed on the premises some non-alcoholic, but also non-licensed, baccy-related refreshment?

( early/middle 1970s?) Ah not guilty gov,frequenting Saints and Sinners Bar St Vincent Steet at that time honest. 😆

However I did have a perfect excuse to frequent licenced premises at any time of day or night if I wished. The company I worked for between 1974 and 1997 was the only one to offer Loss of Licence (alcohol) Insurance (that’s my “cover” blown) 🙄

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Screwtop ThompsonPosted on1:46 am - May 5, 2014


upthehoops says:
May 4, 2014 at 7:20 pm

Very interesting result at Tynecastle today. Moving on from the point Hearts first entered Admin it is hard to find fault how the process has been handled, both by the club and the fans. Into the bargain, results like today suggest there may be a bright future ahead with their young team. A couple of experienced older heads in there and they will certainly be a force in the Championship.

Despite the wrongs of financial mismanagement that forces clubs into Adminstration in the first place, Hearts have been a model on how to deal with it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Did the taxpayer lose any money on this one? How much debt did Hearts dump?

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paulsatimPosted on2:04 am - May 5, 2014


Miller ready for treble, from Daily Orcread http://twitpic.com/e2xjmf

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on2:25 am - May 5, 2014


briggsbhoy says: May 4, 2014 at 8:24 am

Thanks for re-kindling boyhood memories of a match I watched from the Schoolboys Enclosure at the old Hampden Park. That was the first time that I experienced a continental football atmosphere and was amazed by the volume of the West German fans’ klaxons.

For the whole of the second half we held our breath as our heroes – what a team we fielded that night – more than matched the might and majesty of Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller etc. but could not beat their ‘keeper.

Bobby Murdoch had already had several attempts from distance throughout the match that were either blocked or saved and with just two minutes left scorched an unstoppable shot into the far top corner from just outside the D igniting wild celebrations amongst the faithful.

Black and white “highlights” of the match courtesy of German TV, Colm Bundlowe and You Tube.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVywbubdItw

Those were the days…….

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sannoffymesssoitizzPosted on2:49 am - May 5, 2014


16th April 1969 (World Cup Qualifying Group 7)
SCOTLAND 1-1 WEST GERMANY Goals: Muller (39), Murdoch (85)
Referee: Juan Gardeazabal (Spain)
Crowd: 96.292, Hampden Park, Glasgow

SCOTLAND: (Manager: Bobby Brown) 1. Tommy Lawrence 2. Tommy Gemmell 3. Eddie McCreadie 4.Bobby Murdoch 5. Ronnie McKinnon 6. John Greig 7. Jimmy Johnstone 8. Billy Bremner 9. Dennis Law 10. Alan Gilzean 11. Bobby Lennox (Charlie Cooke 63)

WEST GERMANY: (Coach: Helmut Schon) Horst Wolter (Josef (Sepp) Maier 46) – Karl-Heinz Schnellinger, Hans-Hubert (Berti) Vogts – Franz Beckenbauer, Willi Schulz (Cap), Bernd Patzke – Bernd Dorfel, Helmut Haller, Gerhard Muller, Wolfgang Overath (Max Lorenz 79), Siegfried Held.

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sickofitallPosted on6:40 am - May 5, 2014


Think it’s all kicking off this week, all about timing

“THE Rangers supporters trust fund goes ‘live’ tomorrow.

When it does Gers fans will be handed the choice they have been longing for.

And, more importantly, Dave King will have delivered on his first promise to the supporters.

Wrestling control of a Scottish institution was never going to be a pushover.

It was never going to happen overnight. And it was never going to be done by just one man.

But when King spelled out his vision and his plans to me, he didn’t need to ask twice if I was on board.

That’s why I immediately agreed to become a director.

Tomorrow lunchtime, at a press conference in Glasgow, there will be confirmation the trust fund is up and running.

And that Gers fans can now pledge their cash if they wish.

No one is holding a gun to their heads.

If they are happy with how the current regime is running Rangers, then they can snap up their season tickets tomorrow.

If not, they can log on to the fund’s website and start changing things for the better.

The business review delivered by Graham Wallace last week hammered home to me the importance of getting behind King and supporting him where and when I could.

I just wish more former Rangers players would stand up and do the same.

How can anyone with Gers’ best interests at heart be happy with how things are at present?

The chief executive laid bare the figures in black and white last Friday.

Rangers’ shamed directors have squandered £67MILLION — in just 18 months.

Quite frankly, I think that is downright disgusting.

King is the only man offering investment. He is the only person prepared to give fans a say in the running of Rangers.

Now those same fans have the chance to show their support — and I believe they will.

I am on Facebook and, since I announced I was becoming a director alongside King, 99 per cent of the comments I’ve received have been positive.

Some fans are still unsure, which is fine.

If they don’t want to pledge their cash to us either, then they are entitled to sit back and see what happens next.

They are entitled to keep their hard-earned money in their pockets. But many — if not the majority — I’ve spoken to are not prepared to sit back any longer.

Right at the outset, King told me this fight would not be won by the fans alone. It would be won with the backing of key institutional investors.

But he recognises the need to get the fans onside.

And I believe they see King and myself as people they can trust.

Rangers fans have been continuously lied to for the best part of three years now.

Many, if not the majority, are sick, tired and fed-up.

But the fight we are entrenched in still has to be won.

We need everyone pulling together in one final push.

People have asked me why King doesn’t just fork out £5 million or £6 m and buy out the board.

But it’s not as simple and straightforward as that.

For a start — and this is key — Dave doesn’t want to reward the current regime.

He has no intention of lining their pockets any further.

King is a man with a plan.

In fact, he is a man with a plan A, B, and C.

I had to laugh this week when I saw some fans claiming his takeover drive had lost some momentum.

Are they for real?

The trust fund is about to go live, the current Rangers board have been exposed once again and the share price has fallen off the edge of the cliff.

I would say the momentum is ALL with us.

Just cast your mind back to last week, when Wallace confirmed Gers had been forced to scrap the debit and credit card facility because they couldn’t give the company that ran it the guarantees they were looking for.

It’s like wheeling and dealing in The Barras. Embarrassing.

And that, fundamentally, is why I am now involved.

I’m fed-up with Rangers being a laughing stock.

This is not the club I knew.

King has made his stand and I am 100 per cent behind him.

I’m doing it for the right reasons and I’m doing it because I believe I can make a difference.

If we don’t act right now, then where might Rangers be in 12 months’ time? I dare not think.

For too long, people have been allowed to get away with doing what they like.

No one at Rangers has been held to account.

By asking the questions they didn’t want to face, in many respects King has already held this lot to account.

But the battle isn’t over yet and it is no use fans burying their heads in the sand.

It is up to us all to make sure we get our Rangers back.

It is up to us all to make sure we get Rangers back to the top where it belongs”

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helpmaboab

helpmaboabPosted on6:45 am - May 5, 2014


RIP Elena Baltacha.

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Tartanwulver

TartanwulverPosted on7:04 am - May 5, 2014


upthehoops says:
May 4, 2014 at 9:37 pm

On the subject of a possible Kenny Miller return to Ibrox. I love the way, at least in the media, that players like Miller and Boyd are discussed in a way as if they can’t go to any other club.
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They can, of course, go to another club, but call me an old cynic, but I’d think that there is a certain inevitability to such stories because they are either already arranged (and a churnalist has been given to story to allow him to look like someone ‘in the know’ in exchange for future favours), or either club or agent are using said churnalist as a bargaining tool (eg get up a head of steam with the supporters to bounce the club into buying). Add to that the only team in the country where people are willing to sign contracts put in front of them without reading them AND YET find that the contract is for a salary several times more than would be on offer elsewhere…I can quite see why there might just be one club an ageing player might want to sign for!

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upthehoopsPosted on7:19 am - May 5, 2014


sickofitall says:
May 5, 2014 at 6:40 am
==============================
I do wonder if Gough includes his pal Ally among those who have been doing what they like! He is also 100% spot on when he says Rangers are not the club he once knew! Then came the arrogance at the end, the ‘back to the top where we belong’ bit. No club in any league in the world ‘belongs’ anywhere. Such a notion belies what the game is about, which is success through on field sporting achievement. Do we ever hear clubs like Leeds Utd bleating every week that they ‘belong’ at the top of the EPL? Do we ever hear twice European Champions Nottingham Forest say the same?

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ringostarPosted on8:14 am - May 5, 2014


“This is not the club I knew.”

Richard Gough 2014.

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Giovanni

GiovanniPosted on8:23 am - May 5, 2014


Whilst I admire the writings of James Forrest and others on this blog we must all remember that RIFC is not quite the rudderless ship we sometimes think it is. We just don’t always appreciate who has their hands on the tiller.

The majority shareholders are not in the least interested in football or the number of points an ethereal entity may be deducted from something called a football league. They are only interested in a return on investment. Mr Wallace et al can continue in what they were hired to do, namely keep up the pretence of a football club, although he may not have been aware of the pretence angle when he was first hired. They will even go along with Mr McCoist hiring expensive players if it brings in more money from ticket sales and merchandising in the immediate short term, since these players won’t actually get much of that money anyway.

A limit will have been set and whenever that point is reached then the property company, RIFC, will dissolve/liquidate the loss making subsidiary. They will quite happily sell the ethereal entity, complete with history, to Mr King, as long has he signs a long term, fully insured and repaired property rental agreement. Why should they bother with an expensive administration that they would have to fund?

Perhaps someone should ask Mr Crighton or the “angry arab” when RIFC will “pull the plug”. Mr Crighton is the personal representative of the major shareholder after all.

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essexbeancounterPosted on8:30 am - May 5, 2014


John Clark says:

May 5, 2014 at 12:24 am
Am I wholly mistaken, or was that fabled animal/bird not done at one time ( early/middle 1970s?) for having permitted to be consumed on the premises some non-alcoholic, but also non-licensed, baccy-related refreshment?
Or was that a hallucinatory figment of my imagination?
As if!
===================================================================
JC(e) I think that reputation, along with that of the State Bar in Holland Street, was a tad overstated…I did however get a few strange whiffs during my tenure from ’72-’80…and it was not from the loos…!

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BrendaPosted on8:36 am - May 5, 2014


❓ is Kenny miller playing for free 😳 thought they were skint 😉

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grecian urnPosted on8:41 am - May 5, 2014


I never post, but, why on earth would someone TD commiserations being offered over the death of a young woman? It,s beyond me.

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tykebhoy

tykebhoyPosted on8:47 am - May 5, 2014


Brenda, they are but when as the small matter of factual position aka truth got in the way of the :slamb: running with a story likely to attract a few more gullible to part with hard earned for season books

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essexbeancounterPosted on8:48 am - May 5, 2014


South0fThe Border says:

May 5, 2014 at 12:26 am

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essexbeancounter says: May 4, 2014 at 11:04 pm
Yarmy…just returned from a lovely Sunday evening in the Epping Forest…three pints of Adnam’s Broadside raised to your side
______________________________________
A bit OT but if we’re discussing pubs in a misspent youth – Essex – were you at the Forest Gate in Bell Common? Drank there a few times whilst they built the M25 through the nearby cricket pitch – they were very considerate and covered it over to form a tunnel and restored the cricket pitch on top!
=========================================================
SoB(sic)…the very place…! Amazing feat of civil engineering moving such important local bits and replacing them!
A nice photo of the construction process hangs there.
Sorry TSFM…no more OT

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Paulmac2Posted on8:56 am - May 5, 2014


Giovanni says:
May 5, 2014 at 8:23 am
…………………

In true Ibrox style…King will have the fans give him the cash to allow him the kick start money he needs…he does not have the permission of the SA authority to use any SA banked cash….when a Millionaire needs someone elses cash to pay for a business…you know something ain’t cosha!

Once again this confirms…only those willing to use other peoples money are willing to run Ibrox…but then again King fails 2 of the SFA requirements to run a football club…1 being his 42 seperate two year convictions?

And as I said previously…having the fans put money in a trust keeps it out of any insolvency event…

Dave King the convicted millionaire who won’t spend his own cash…what a guy!

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Flocculent Apoidea

Flocculent ApoideaPosted on9:08 am - May 5, 2014


“And I believe they see King and myself as people they can trust.” That’s two literary steps away from stating you are actually trustworthy.

“King is a man with a plan. In fact, he is a man with a plan A, B, and C.” We know plan A is to borrow a pen, plan B is to borrow some paper but what’s plan C? Travel expenses?

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Paulmac2Posted on9:15 am - May 5, 2014


sannoffymesssoitizz says:
May 5, 2014 at 2:49 am
……………………..
I believe that was the game during a stoppage Tommy Gemmell chased a german player all round the pitch to thump him…

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