A consortium led by David Low has been in talks with Sir Tom Farmer seeking to purchase Hibernian Football Club. The story has been embargoed for a few weeks, but David agreed to speak to TSFM to give us an exclusive interview and provide us with information about his intentions for the Edinburgh club.
Highlights of the interview include the similarities and differences between the Hibs situation and the one he found at Celtic Pak in 1994; how Scottish Football’s “new level playing field” as Low calls it has created an opportunity for a club like Hibs to be the main challenger to Celtic for honours; the contrast of his consortium’s approach to that of the recent debacle at Ibrox; the role of the fans at every level of the club; the future of Allan Stubbs and Leanne Dempster; and the journey back to the Premiership.
Low is frank about his reputation as a well-known Celtic fan, but highlights his Hibbee credentials and his affection for the club, eschewing the “I was always a Hibbee” line taken by so many people seeking to ingratiate themselves with the locals at various clubs.
Certainly, the experience and finance rolling around Low’s consortium is something that any club could do with, but the fans are crucial to their involvement and interest.
He says he won’t go ahead with the purchase unless the fans are behind them.
“Fans have never been so powerful as they are today, especially with the advent of social media like TSFM”
“We have seen in recent years what a body of fans are capable of when they re together”
“We want to have that togetherness at Hibs, because the only way forward is to have trust between the boardroom and the fans, you only have to look at the levels of distrust between board and fans at Rangers to see that it is a recipe for disaster”
ecobhoy says:
August 13, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Kind of get the point you are making you are making but are you now saying that there is a get out clause for the 3-0 forfeit?
. . . in cases where all aspects of the offence have been revealed by the party charged and after taking into account both aggravating and mitigating circumstances, it may scale down the disciplinary measure or even nullify it altogether.
On the hibs thing, whilst I don’t like wealthy entrepreneurs using clubs as a plaything and holding fans loyalty to ransom I’m also a little wary of mob rule fuelled buy outs. David Low is perfectly entitled to name his purchase price. But Rod Petrie is equally entitled to say no. It would be unfair if a reaction was planned designed to hurt him as a consequence (like a fan boycott for instance) if it also hurts Hibs in the meantime.
And since I’m upsetting people anyway, I thought our contributors dialogue with mr broad foot was a little harsh and dismissive IMHO. I wonder if there is still sufficient goodwill to invite him on here. What I’d suggest would be a 20 question pre-piece with his answers listed here. We’d then dissect them and prepare a further 20 for the discussion itself which he could have access to prior to the discussion if he so wished to prepare himself. Happy that SFA would retain ‘reasonable’ editing rights, in case of misconstrual etc.
Big Pink says:
August 13, 2014 at 1:31 pm
13 1 Rate This
Re the David Low statement today;
The Low consortium, as I understand it, had offered to free Hibs of £6m debt.
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There is a number of ways that could be interpreted. Craig Whyte relieved Rangers of bank debt, but didn’t improve the position of the club. Prior to that David Murray reduced bank debt at Rangers by having it transferred to MIH. That wasn’t any long term benefit to Rangers either.
For the avoidance of doubt it would be useful to understand exactly how this burden would be removed from Hibs. It clearly isn’t via the issue of new equity to repay the lenders, does it just mean substituting an outside lender for an associated one. Does it mean removing an asset in return for an agreement to pay a lender.
How exactly is it proposed that this benefit is placed at Hibs disposal
ecobhoy says:
August 13, 2014 at 2:28 pm
8 0 Rate This
I wonder if LW told UEFA about this ❓
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl/rumour-mill-referee-strike-legia-warsaw-bilel-mohsni-1-3507676
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I note that the Scotsman Rumour Mill is quoting the Mail, who of course as we know likes a good ‘Johnny Foreigner’ story.
Given our inherent mistrust of the SMSM should it not be our modus operandi to take stories/rumours like this with a pinch of salt until more evidence is available as opposed to jump on the printed word when it suits our needs.
I am afraid the longer this goes on the story is going to turn into how Celtic were somehow cheated by a despicable Polish team that thumped them 6 (going on 8,9,10) – 1.
It would be the usual Scottish reaction of using a convenient diversion to avoid looking into the real issue of how we get all our clubs to improve their performance at the Euro level.
Testing 1,2,3 …..
Ooooft. Someone just parted with 75,000 RFC @ 26.5 and price dropped 3p on the day.
It’s been touched on before, but I think we’re all too keen to dump the blame for the relatively poor performance of Scottish clubs in Europe on the lack of ability of our players. Whilst no doubt our players could stand to improve their technical ability, the comparison of the supposed strength of Scottish football in Europe from several decades ago sidesteps the fact that the European draw is so heavily weighted in favour of the big nations that we are more likely to see our teams come up against strong teams before the group stages of either the Champions League or Europa league are even reached.
No excuse for Motherwell, though….
Just had a look back to see how our teams did in the ‘Golden Era’ of Scottish football, and find that Dundee United’s crowds on European nights were around the 12,000 mark. To be honest, it’s not much different to when they’ve got a big match these days, but if you read the MSM, you’d think that 30,000 were packing into Tannadice every week during that era, and that Scottish football crowds have gone through the floor.
Could this lead to a European Regional League to challenge the Big 5 European leagues in terms of TV income and present a problem/solution for Scottish football?
http://ffu.org.ua/eng/ffu/about/ffu_news/12926/
Unless the Football Union of Russia are sanctioned by UEFA and the clubs involved are returned to FFU jurisdiction then the door to a European Regional League may become slightly ajar rather than the previously firmly closed and I have no doubt that a lot of clubs from the smaller European leagues could be hefting their collective shoulders against it.
In its simplest form any UEFA member, possibly Gibraltar would be an ideal candidate because of its generous tax laws and size, could invite Celtic, Benfica, Anderlecht, Ajax etc, etc. to form their new Premier Division of Europe league and then sell the TV rights worldwide splitting the proceeds 5% to GFA (small fortune to them for facilitating the deal) and 95% to clubs involved.
Any thoughts?
TBK says:
August 13, 2014 at 10:56 am
ecobhoy says:
August 13, 2014 at 11:17 am
We are all in broad agreement that, on the balance of probabilities, it is more likely that the meeting took place than it didn’t. Especially as the Rangers website takes time to deny rumours of a Brighton bid for Wallace but nothing on the meeting story.
If so then Craig Houston & Chris Graham seem to have cooked up a cunning plan to demand the Board take action against Phil rather than demand the Board deny or confirm the content whilst delivering all of Phil’s piece verbatim to their readers.
Maybe it could be time for a podcast with one or both of these increasingly new-media savvy Rangers’ fans on their vision of the future for their club and how it can be achieved.
redetin says:
August 13, 2014 at 4:43 pm
4 0 Rate This
Ooooft. Someone just parted with 75,000 RFC @ 26.5 and price dropped 3p on the day.
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A 10% drop in price today does this bode well for the further share issue and the ability to raise 5 million euros?
If RIFC make it to an AGM can they issue shares further to the 100 million potentially available?
“Referees get £840 for a Premiership game and £195 for a Championship match.
“Most people would accept a Rangers-Hearts, Rangers-Hibs, Hearts-Hibs game in the Championship is just like a Premiership match,” said Dougal.
“So, absolutely, I think they should get a Premiership wage for doing Premiership matches that are under the banner of the Championship.”
Thought the last statement from Dougal was magic
Source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28778818
So rangers ,hibs and hearts are not really in the championship just under its banner?
weeman @5:49pm
Maybe it could be time for a podcast with one or both of these increasingly new-media savvy Rangers’ fans on their vision of the future for their club and how it can be achieved.
_______________________
Not sure it’s worth all the setup costs for a 10 second podcast.
weeman says:
August 13, 2014 at 5:49 pm
3 0 Rate This
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I’m very confident in the integrity of my sources.
Barcabhoy says:
August 13, 2014 at 4:07 pm
Big Pink says:
Re the David Low statement today;
The Low consortium, as I understand it, had offered to free Hibs of £6m debt.
——————
For the avoidance of doubt it would be useful to understand exactly how this burden would be removed from Hibs. It clearly isn’t via the issue of new equity to repay the lenders, does it just mean substituting an outside lender for an associated one. Does it mean removing an asset in return for an agreement to pay a lender.
How exactly is it proposed that this benefit is placed at Hibs disposal?
________________________________________________________
Simply by paying off the debt with the consortium’s funds is my information. No replacement of one lender with another or an asset swap.
Ayr, Dunfermline and Morton also used to play in the top division, so how’s about….
“Most people would accept a Morton-Ayr, Dunfermline-Ayr, Dunfermline-Morton game in League 1 is just like a Premiership match,” said Dougal.
“So, absolutely, I think they should get a Premiership wage for doing Premiership matches that are under the banner of League 1.”
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 13, 2014 at 6:13 pm
I’m very confident in the integrity of my sources.
——————————————————————–
Good
You seem to have rattled Chris Graham’s cage though 😉
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 13, 2014 at 6:13 pm
I’m very confident in the integrity of my sources.
================================
I guess it hurts them like hell you get the inside track on Ibrox and they don’t!
oddjob says:
August 13, 2014 at 3:04 pm
Ecobhoy says
August 13 @ 2.28 pm
In fairness, we should point out that the Scotsman was simply (as it often does) recycling a story from another source, this time an article by Craig Swann of the Daily record.
I think Mr Swann deserves credit for a decent bit of journalism in this instance.
==========================================
I think if you look at my original story that the Record’s name was included by the Scotsman as they usually do in their diary items. In my experience the Scotsman is one of the few papers with a decent record of giving credit to other papers.
I have never ever known the Record to bother much about identifying the actual source of its ‘exclusives’ right enough 😆
As to the quality of the investigative work in this case – did it not come out of Poland last night on twitter feeds?
oddjob says:
August 11, 2014 at 2:46 pm
I see Stuart Milne…hopes to have Aberdeen playing out of a new stadium by 2017. What do the Dons fans think of giving up Pittodrie?
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Ach. Stewart Milne has been talking about having Aberdeen playing out of a new stadium since, roughly, 412 AD. (I think that was the season Constantius finally drove Alaric and the Visigoths from Italy into Gaul. And he wasn’t giving them a lift. Shocking defending by the Visigoths, though. Mind how their fans immediately started consoling themselves with the security blanket of their wretched “378 AD: The Battle of Adrianople” DVD? Zoomers.) It’s been a long time, anyway.
Stewart the Inert of Pittodrieshire, to give him his full non-working title, is always on the look out for ways to achieve and do nothing. If an opportunity for inaction presents itself, he’s right in there (leading the moribund shuffle to a rousing standstill).
Getting away with doing nothing is surprisingly hard work, though, and Milne appears to have come to the conclusion that inertia may be cynically transfigured by “vision” – and that “vision” itself is a useful (and proactive-sounding) peg to hang on the nebulous concept of “progress”.
And so the fans may ask: “Stewarty, min? Under your watch Pittodrie has been neglected to the point of decrepitude, the atmosphere is often desperate, and the catering staff appears to wish great harm, perhaps even death, upon us. Fits ‘at a’ aboot?”
The implicit and catch-all negation of these (and similar) gripes is “vision”. The vision of a gleaming new stadium; the vision of an achingly vibrant modernity, always just round the next corner. It would be a form of madness, we are slyly finessed to believe, to tackle or fix the present problems when we’ve so much to tackle and fix and look forward to at some unspecified point in eternity.
This isn’t to say that it won’t ever happen (it very well might) or that Stewart Milne has no redeeming features (he has many, many of those), merely that we’ve heard it all before.
But how does it feel, you asked? It’s difficult to answer that question without coming across as some maudlin crybaby stuck in the (idealised, soft-focus) past – the kind of person, in fact, that should normally provoke a gag reflex in all well-rounded citizens. But still, needs must. (Warning: The following paragraphs are likely to contain scenes of extreme partiality and unreasonableness that some readers may find distressing.)
How does it feel? It feels like shite, that’s how it feels. And it feels like shite for a number of reasons, not least because it feels like part of something much bigger and seemingly all-consuming: Greed.
I remember reading a wee while back that Pittodrie, amongst other things, failed to satisfy the requirements of German TV. Whether this assertion is true or not is probably beside the point; the guy was forwarding it as one of the reasons we needed to move stadium and accepted the rationale of his own way of thinking.
But that’s alright, buddypal, I don’t watch German TV, and I’m not sure that many Aberdeen fans will – so where’s your problem? (Even when I lived in Germany, I made a point of not watching German TV, which is maybe a different thing, true, although I recommend this course of action to any would-be visitors to the country and, indeed, to all Germans themselves.)
The requirements of German TV must be a consideration for a team playing in the north east of Scotland? Get stuffed. The requirements of German TV should barely even be a consideration for a team playing in the north east of Germany.
But then I’m not one of those people whose Sundays have ever been made “super” by throwing a Hull versus Wigan match into the mix. The very thought that there may be people out there who actually buy into this terrible bullshit is enough to lay waste to the soul. It rips into me. The more they chirrup and bray of Super Sundays and the like, the less special it all begins to feel, if it ever felt special at all. Saturated? Bank on it.
What on earth have we allowed come to pass that the TV companies are calling all the shots? Mental. I abjure that our clubs and associations genuflect before them, but they can’t help themselves, it seems. They’ve bought into it. The TV dealers came to the playgrounds…
“Hey meester, you want for to try a Soooper Sunday? Shhh. Good stuff, no? Take home. Try on couch.”
…and after a few imperiously re-arranged kick-off times we’re all suddenly hooked on the “Champions” League. Except we’re not. Or I’m not. Not now. The spectacle is beyond gruesome.
Glossy new stadium? You’re alright, thanks. It’s all a bit Super Sunday, a bit Glasgow, a bit Champions League, a bit Qatar, a bit flash, a bit 6.15pm kick-off on a Thursday or whenever, a bit corporate, a bit pricey, a bit wages that seem shameful, a bit soulless and definitely a bit sad. (And the word “sad” is not being used in its more sneering modern incarnation. I mean to say there is a real sadness here, a sense of loss and longing.)
And we should aim for this? That’s not progress, Stewart, that’s madness.
But if we can’t give the Germans any credit for their TV – and we really can’t, I must insist – we can certainly give them credit for their habit of making up spectacularly enjoyable words by randomly cobbling all sorts together. For example: Torschlusspanik.
“Torschlusspanik is a combination of three German words, and literally translated means “gate-shut-panic.” Apparently the term dates back to the Middle Ages in reference to the panic medieval peasants might have experienced as they rushed to make it back inside the city gates before they closed at nightfall. Being left outside the protective walls would have meant being exposed to the cold, wild animals and perhaps robbers.”
Magic.
If there is a better word to describe the condition of those feeling left out of the whole Champions League “I worship TV money, me” clanjamfry, I’m yet to hear it.
But they have it the wrong way round; they’re running in the wrong direction. Behind the protective walls of the Champions League is exactly where the wild animals and robbers do their business these days. We’re better off out in the cold.
But, but, but…if we don’t try to keep up we’ll get left behind, surely? Precisely. Seize your destiny, Mr Milne: do nothing. It’s what you’re best at. And this time, it might just work.
Kilgore Trout says:
August 13, 2014 at 6:00 pm
Not sure it’s worth all the setup costs for a 10 second podcast.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Would that be 5 seconds each!
Seriously though my personal choice for a podcast would be Stewart Regan on the future for Scottish football as the SFA see it.
Amazingless says:
August 13, 2014 at 6:57 pm
6 0 Rate This
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What an eloquent rant. If I was awarding prizes, I’d give that 5 out of 5 sticky pastries 🙂
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 13, 2014 at 6:13 pm
I’m very confident in the integrity of my sources.
______________________________________________________
I’m very confident you are or you would not have published the piece.
Although I found it highly entertaining, the slight change of style especially, I am more interested in how the content was handled by the Rangers bloggers.
They seem to be wising up.
WOTTPI @ 1.13
Since journos obviously read TSFM, here is a list of questions to Campbell Ogilvie originally posted on Scotsfans4change.
It is Ogilvie’s silence that condemns in on a number of grounds as not being fit to be President of the SFA.
Questions for Campbell Ogilvie
Employee Remuneration Policy
You sat as Secretary to the committee in 1999 that decided to adopt employee benefit trusts as a matter of Rangers employee remuneration policy:
Were you aware from prior briefings what might invalidate the use of ebts as a means of remunerating employers, particularly players?
If not did you seek clarification and if not why not?
With your experience in football administration did you advise other at Rangers in your role as Secretary of what might invalidate the protection from tax that ebts offered?
If it was not your responsibility to brief others, whose was it and was it agreed that a briefing should be provided to contract writers?
If not, given the disastrous consequences of not complying, why not?
Craig Moore’s EBT in 1999.
You said in 2012
“It is also worth noting that, since the mid-90s, I was not responsible for the drafting or administering of player contracts.”
Given that you set up the first ebt payment under the above policy in 1999 does that not suggest that you played a part in the administration of a contract to pay a player?
What was the reason for the payment in question to Craig Moore and was the payment registered with the SFA as part of the player’s contract?
De Boer and Flo EBTs.
Given that the signings in 2000 of De Boer and Flo were the first time ebts were used in the recruitment of new players under the policy you were party to introducing, were you not involved at any stage administrative or advisory or any other capacity?
Had you at any time between 2000 and 2005 in your role as Secretary or any other role received any indication that HMRC were asking question s about the contracts to these players awarded in 2000?
Given that the side letters for these two existed, at what point did you become aware of their existence?
Given the potential consequences arising from their existence being hidden from HMRC did you advise anyone at Rangers in 2005 or at the SFA at any time after you joined them on those potential consequences?
If not why not, if yes whom did you advise?
Lord Nimmo Smith Enquiry.
You stated
“In relation to the recent investigation, I can confirm that I asked to be excluded from the Scottish FA’s independent inquiry into Rangers.
“In the interests of good governance it was absolutely right that this was the case.”
What was the basis for deciding it was in the interests of good governance given your knowledge of the introduction of ebts at Rangers?
Was it your decision alone or did you discuss it with anyone?
If yes with whom?
Did you reveal then your early involvement from 1999 in ebts, in particular your role in the remuneration policy committee?
In 2012 you said
“I was aware of the EBT scheme in operation at Rangers during my time at the club and, indeed, was a member. The existence of the scheme was published in Rangers’ annual accounts.
Why did you not clarify that there were in fact two distinct ebt schemes in operation during your time at Rangers, the one that paid you £95K and the one that paid Moore, De Boer and Flo?
Why, given that the SFA took on role of appellants but you had excluded yourself from an SFA enquiry did you then not exclude yourself from the SPL independent enquiry under LNS in the same interests of good governance grounds?
Why when giving testimony to LNS during that enquiry did you not make a distinction between the early ebts arising from the DOS and the later EBTs as LNS was treating them as continuous when in tax avoidance and tax evasion terms they clearly were not at the time of enquiry?
Are you aware that failure to make the distinction caused LNS to treat all payments as “not themselves irregular” when in fact at least the two to De Boer and Flo were?
Fill yer boots journos or was a strategy agreed in the meeting Rangers had with the First Minister’s team in December 2011 (the same month Rangers met Reagan and Ogilvie to discuss the UEFA 2011 licence and other issues) that the full truth should never come out?
That along with giving the FM permission to talk about Rangers debt to HMRC 2 months before it drove them into administration. The silence on it all is deafening.
Ecobhoy says
August13 204 @6.47pm
You infer that the story in the Daily Record was based on Polish Twitter from last night.
Fine! However, you had to refer to the Scotsman`s interpretation of the Daily Record`s article in your post.
I have no Twitter involvement or connection, nor do I intend to change that.
I made no reference to investigative journalism in my post. I rather thought that at least someone in the SMSM was looking at the other side of the coin and deserved some credit.
I am no fan of the Daily Record. I do not live in the UK and mostly survive, as far as information goes, on sites like this.
As far as ivestigation goes, I was a professional investigator for many years before retirement. The first rule of an investigator is to establish the normal, and question the abnormal.
Please do not presume to lecture me on such.
Auldheid says:
August 13, 2014 at 7:41 pm
‘..Questions for Campbell Ogilvie.’
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Excellent. Perhaps the recognition of TSFM by two of the broadsheets ( and in the near-certainty that the blog is read by some at Hampden Park and elsewhere in the tabloid media) is an indicator that it may be opportune for your ‘questions for CO’ to be endorsed by TSFM, and a letter to be sent by TSFM to the President of that organisation, and copied to the Chief Executive and all the members of the SFA Board?
They are all perfectly legitimate questions to which all Scottish football supporters – a huge number of whom, from across the spectrum of clubs,could be seen to be ‘formally’ represented by TSFM- are entitled to an answer.
Amingless
I am glad you (belatedly) reacted to my post! I felt at the time that the defection of “Ernie”, due to his views on the continued Legia debate,was justified, and tried to redirect the topic.
Bill 1903 responded but, sadly, not mutch else interest from other quarters till your post.
Come back Ernie!
John Clark says:
August 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
==================================
I agree it is almost certain the mainstream hacks and even the footballing authorities will visit this blog. I think this is testament to two things. The first thing is the quality and insight of some of the posters, often from an informed legal or financial point of view. The second thing is the excellent job done by the moderators in keeping the blog as sane and generally respectful as it is. A glance elsewhere on the web tells you all you need to know.
Bit of an OT debate the other day on refs, penalties and red cards.
Well, Saints denied a penalty tonight; few minutes later Celts awarded one for an outrageous dive. Saints player sent off in the process. Game over. I’d had enough. Telly aff.
Moral of the story — big team bias exists, along with many other kinds of bias.
oddjob says:
August 13, 2014 at 9:39 pm
Come back Ernie!
___________________________________
+1
I’m going to miss that pastry lad. Liked him to!
upthehoops says:
August 13, 2014 at 9:49 pm
John Clark says:
August 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
==================================
I agree it is almost certain the mainstream hacks and even the footballing authorities will visit this blog. I think this is testament to two things. The first thing is the quality and insight of some of the posters, often from an informed legal or financial point of view. The second thing is the excellent job done by the moderators in keeping the blog as sane and generally respectful as it is. A glance elsewhere on the web tells you all you need to know
____________________________________________________________________
Thanks for your words UtH. I’d be an idiot to deny a wee bit of pride has risen in my breast over the last coupe of days with regard to the wider recognition we have reached.
It is tinged with some frustration though that those kinds of things will be few and far between. If we had (in addition to the wisdom and expertise we can call on) the resources to chase these kinds of stories (the Hibs one), hound the SFA/SPFL PR desks, and seek to rebut the systematic crap that appears in the MSM, we might even be able to make a difference.
A sort of Huffington Post for Scotland 🙂
The day jobs though have to take priority. That will give the MSM some solace!
Smugas says:
August 13, 2014 at 10:07 pm
I’m going to miss that pastry lad. Liked him to!
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Blimey Danish Pastry must’ve had more thumbs down the last few days than in his history onTSFM!!
More power to your elbow though as this isn’t a Celtic forum 😯
Just trying to fly the flag for sanity and balance. People are making lists you know. This blog needs to be careful. You won’t catch me in lycra and falsies cheerleading any kind of bias. #Bonkers it is.
To serious matters though.
@Pmacgiollabhain
I would keep an eye on the RIFC share price tomorrow.
#HowLowDareTheyGo
11:24pm – 13 Aug 14
If 40,000 plus spectators feeds certain Investors, could there be an onerous contract connected to a low share price? Surely it won’t all revert to Charles?
Danish Pastry, as long as you continue to comment your own truthful views on whatever the story of the day is, that is all any of us can ask of you. Good work.
Bill1903 says:
August 13, 2014 at 10:43 pm
2 0 Rate This
Blimey Danish Pastry must’ve had more thumbs down the last few days than in his history onTSFM!!
More power to your elbow though as this isn’t a Celtic forum
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With respect, BP and ‘TSFM’ mods are way ahead if me 😀
One of the external criticisms of this blog is that it’s Celtic-centric. It’s now at long last getting some MSM attention. It’s important it is TSFM and remains that.
Erratically trying to access / keep up to date with TSFM comments – and have just noticed the reappearance of TBK.
Welcome back, and hopefully this is a portent of major developments down Govan way ?
And, just as I would direct to that part-timer LW, [Lord Wobbly that is – not Legia Warsaw], where the hell have you been…? 😉
Danish Pastry says:
August 13, 2014 at 9:55 pm
“Moral of the story — big team bias exists, along with many other kinds of bias.”
—————————
I cannot confirm nor deny such a controversial assertion. However analysis of two thousand or so football matches over a ten year period should carry some weight and justification. The information I posted yesterday had no leading remarks as I think people have to make up their own minds. A look at the average red cards per team might indicate the type of bias you are alluding to although I am not in a position to be unequivocal on the point.
All I’d say is that I did not encounter any overblown bias in the course of my considerations. The next stage will be to look at more subtle aspects. The file appears again below in case you missed it first time around.
St. Mirren, Dundee United and Hearts seem to get a red card every fourth away game.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzpun5j9fk9d92a/Red%20cards%20by%20referee%2000%20to%2010.xls
Two things, Perthshire football fans are shocking, with around 2,501 (4000 Celts) at the game the town will eventually get the team they deserve, a crap wan!
Secondly, I can’t help but consider the situation if LW was Man U, and Celtic were LW, would Man U been bombed out? Doubt It.
Well this CFC fan doesn’t think Dirk dived.Looked to me that he tripped over his own feet.Never a penalty and never a sending off.
Dirk would get injured on A Question Off Sport!.
My team got another lucky break tonight.
That’s two 3-0 wins in a row 😉
Back in sunny Glasgow, and decided to treat the family to tickets for the Celtic v. Dundee United game on Saturday.
Mum, Dad and 2 weans for the Family Section: 92 quid !
Add in pies & bovril, programme, taxi, and I’m guessing mibbes 130 quid all in.
Didn’t really appreciate how exclusive the ‘people’s game’ has become… 🙁
Danish Pastry says:
August 13, 2014 at 10:45 pm
Phil seems very certain that something is going to happen to RIFC shares tomorrow, and he doesn’t seem to think they are going up in value! Got me thinking, if the shares nose-dive, will that be an opening for some blue knight to get the club on the cheap? Buy up lots of shares, perhaps with the help of supporters, and get rid of the board overnight. Then I thought, what about those onerous contracts, and pay-offs to the board and the general mess the company is in. It’s going to take a lot more than just a couple of million to sort that mess out!
The board, too, might, under instruction from their masters, move to have the shares suspended or even removed from AIM and revert to a private company. I suppose the company is in the control of the board and assorted spivs regardless of what happens to the share-price and they won’t want bottom dollar for their shares, most likely preferring to transfer all the good assets to RIFC and cutting the club adrift for anyone who wants to pick it up.
So, from thinking this could be a good thing for the bears, a little bit later my thoughts turned to the more likely prospect of misery. I suspect this scenario (if it comes to pass) is something that the spivs would have foreseen a long time ago, and is in the spiv handbook anyway, as disaster is their stock and trade.
Aquinas says:
August 13, 2014 at 11:35 pm
‘…Secondly, I can’t help but consider the situation if LW was Man U, and Celtic were LW, would Man U been bombed out? Doubt It.’
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There was an extraordinary readiness on the part of Sportsound tonight to expect that UEFA would uphold the decision to dump Legia, not because Legia were guilty of breaching a basic, well understood, rule of the CL competition, but because of the practicalities that would arise if they allowed the appeal, even if Legia were innocent!
There was of course no mention of the SFA’s absolute readiness to throw out the rule book when it came to both RFC(IL) and Sevco/RIFCplc/TRFC.
There is a very one-eyed view in BBC radio Scotland of the fitness of things.
StevieBC says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:16 am
‘.Didn’t really appreciate how exclusive the ‘people’s game’ has become.’
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A mere bagatelle, surely, to a rich New Yorker!
Relative to the price s paid for a ball game between teams at an equivalent level/general cost of living/average earnings in, say, ‘working-class’ NY, how does the price you mention compare, in the round?
I hope you and your family have a splendid visit ‘home’ and that the game you see will be a hugely enjoyable experience , regardless of result!
Allyjambo says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:19 am
‘.. or even removed from AIM and revert to a private company.’
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There is a distinct possibility that they will jump before AIM pushes them, I would have thought.
I think this may have been mentioned before, and the question arose as to what was involved in ‘de-listing’.
RFC(now in liquidation) delisted.
How did that affect shareholders at the time? Did it matter that their shares were not tradeable on the market? Did the smaller shareholders ( and they were, of course all smaller, since SDM was by a huge margin the majority shareholder) all lose out?
If RIFC plc does, willingly or otherwise, delist, how might that affect the ordinary fan shareholder? No possibility of a dividend? No way to sell his shares except to the directors and at the price they demanded? Or what?
Cheers for that JC, but I can assure you I am firmly in the ‘99%’ camp !
Can’t quote all figures, but distinct impression is that attending major sports in NYC is a luxury.
Managed to attend a couple of Nicks basketball games which were ‘relatively cheaply sourced’ tickets through the kids’ school – but which otherwise would have cost about $200 each, or c.GBP120 each,[and for cheap seats too: courtside is typically nearer $4K per ticket at face value!]
I have no idea how the ‘average’ family can attend sports on a regular basis, and presume there will be a payback in the future when kids have drifted off to other pursuits / video games…
Allyjambo says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:19 am
2 0 Rate This
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A fall in share price might not be such a bad thing for the people trying to steady the ship.
Allyjambo says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:19 am
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There is a presumption built into your argument that the institutional shareholders will sell at that price? A share price at a certain value does not mean you can come in and randomly snap up a controlling stake at the price listed. Only that you can buy the shares that are being offered for sale at that moment at that price. If there are not enough shares available at the price point you want to buy at then you have to bid at a price that institutional investors will be willing to part with there shares at….
If RIFC collapses to lets say for arguments sake tomorrow, 15p, DK comes in over the top with an offer of 18p for a 30% stake does anybody really see anybody parting with shares at that price in the sort of volume that would make DK actually interested in buying?
Apologise if a bit rambly. had a couple glasses tonight 🙂
Madbhoy24941 says:
August 13, 2014 at 11:17 am
100 0
Darryl Broadfoot:
Campbell did, however, receive an EBT as an employee.
To say he was ‘economical with the truth’ is not only defamatory but also hugely disrespectful to a man who has the utmost integrity.
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This one statement sums up the whole issue; certain people are not allowed to be questioned, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that questions that integrity…
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And this one statement also highlights the lack of quality in the SFA leadership.
The Head of Communications 🙄 of the national sport doesn’t seem to have a firm handle on the topic in question, at all.
Allyjambo says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:19 am
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It could be revealing to actually see who’s first in the queue to hoover up any available shares at rock-bottom price.
But as you imply, they might be buying an onerous pig in an onerous poke.
PhilMacGiollaBhain says:
August 14, 2014 at 1:06 am
A fall in share price might not be such a bad thing for the people trying to steady the ship.
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I’m struggling with this one.
Such a fall would jeopardise the planned share issue and almost certainly diminish the likely net cash return. Neither on the face of them good for the business.
I can only surmise that a price fall would be hoped to lead to some of the existing shareholders selling out – to Laxey?
Has such a sale already taken place but will only be reported now, hence Phil’s fairly confident pointer to watch the share price today?
And who is selling and who is buying?
What an ongoing soap this is…
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
John Clark says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:58 am
Allyjambo says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:19 am
AIM DELISTING
There’s an easy-understandable and comprehensive piece here: http://www.theqca.com/information-centre/markets/1441/delisting-from-aim-issues-arising.thtml
And recent trends on delisting here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/952a9684-e55b-11e2-ad1a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3ALlHV037
They’ll be raging about that… so close 😆
redlichtie says:
August 14, 2014 at 7:47 am
I can only surmise that a price fall would be hoped to lead to some of the existing shareholders selling out – to Laxey?
_______________________________________________________
Or they want Laxey to sell up, threatening to take it down even further if they don’t?
Or another alternative, that steadying the ship becomes ‘less onerous’ if the share price sits below 25p or some other figure?
I note there’s just been 5000 RFC shares sold @ 25.5p – what does that mean? I haven’t a clue.
One comment on the LSE forum this morning may or may not throw some light on the situation:
The ‘magic number’ of 15p being talked-about seems unrealistic but then who knows what’s under the hood. And when are the accounts due?
See someone has countered by buying 223 shares at 26.84p – could be a yoyo kind of day 🙂
ADD EDIT
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2013 (GROUP)
Next Accounts Due: 31/12/2014
John Clark says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:58 am
My thoughts were that, in the event of a price crash, it would be the board who would push for the de-listing/suspension of shares as the last thing (I’d imagine) the people truly in charge will want is a true blue knight buying up enough shares to gain power, or at least be in a position to influence what goes on in the boardroom. I’d expect everything is in place to do this as soon as the price drops to a certain level, and will have been in place almost since the company first floated. I’m pretty certain that, should the price drop dramatically, the spivs (or at least the main spivs) will somehow profit from it. I’m not suggesting this is part of the master plan, but rather a contingency they will always have had covered. It is in their DNA, it is in their spiv’s bible, it is not in the best interests of TRFC.
Lurking now most of the time because of work commitments although I do try to keep up a bit and also there is nothing new for me to say and I have no wish to regurgitate my long held views on the whole Sevco disaster which have stood the test of time and are still worryingly current.I did,however,pick up on the issue of delisting which is not a bad play really in their position.
Delisting is not uncommon and requires 75% shareholder approval. The company NOMAD needs to be involved in the delisting strategy which should consider the treatment of shareholders who are disadvantaged by not having a liquid trading position. Some companies offer a tender offer to their minority shareholders who can exchange their shares for a specific (low) amount. It must also be noted that most institutional investors are simply not allowed to hold shares in private companies.
The institutional shareholders will be an issue for RIFC although if the NOMAD is seriously looking at delisting you can bet your pension that they will have found out by now and be seeking exits. This might explain the share price downturn and the re entry of Chico who would lose out badly in this scenario as one of his prime goals was to maximise his penny share sale position. His Soros strategy was therefore trying to offer/promote a “ continue in AIM position” which would allow him a liquid share value position.
I conclude therefore that Wallace, as I have heard, has been unsuccessful in his attempts at raising funds in the city and therefore the principal reason for staying on AIM, the ability to raise money, has gone. All that is left is expense and regulation. So now we can all look forward to even less transparency than before!
The saga continues on and off the field!
On what I hope is a regular event. Great to see Craig Gordon back between the sticks in a competitive game. At a time when much talk is made of home growing talent, surely Craig is what we would like to see more of.
100BJD says:
August 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
Interesting and, of course, of the dozens of clubs who initially signed-up for the AIM market only a couple remain with Celtic being one.
Obviously the primary reason for joining AIM is to raise money for a new company – like Rangers – or to fund expansion of an established one. I hadn’t really thought about it recently but if Wallace can’t raise £4 million now how will he managed c £30 million after December’s agm assuming he gets the necessary vote through.
And as you point out it’s not just the increased regulation and ‘transparency’ of AIM that might irk but the additional costs compared to running a private Ltd company.
ecobhoy says:
August 14, 2014 at 8:50 am
‘.AIM DELISTING
There’s an easy-understandable and comprehensive piece here
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Thanks for the link,ecobhoy.
ecobhoy says:
August 14, 2014 at 12:28 pm
3 0 Rate This
100BJD says:
August 14, 2014 at 11:37 am
?????????????????????????????????????
Or maybe another Wallace couldn’t raise 4 mill either, hence the backing of his manager that he is going nowhere.
Afternoon all.
Would delisting mean that the institutional investors would need to sell up?.
Surely dumping millions of shares would drive the share price even lower.Would there be buyers and if delisting is the aim,how would this affect the proposed rights issue RIFC are hoping to launch at the next AGM?.
I see we are now having fun by adding delisting to our list of:- unpaid bills, final demands, sheriff officers, asbestos Lee Wallace getting sold, lack of electronic advertising, dumping of MP, sale and leaseback, etc etc.
The survival of T’Rangers will simply come down to two things:-
Cash flow and position in the league.
Austerity is required but that will just bring with it a whole range of problems in the future as money will be needed to do things like upgrade delayed maintenance works and improve the playing squad etc etc.
As mentioned above if they are having trouble getting £4m just now then what chance of getting anything greater later on if McCoists poor management results in T’Rangers being anywhere below top spot come AGM/Christmas.
Still walking a tightrope IMHO.
Seems Legia have lost their appeal.
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
August 14, 2014 at 2:05 pm
0 0 Rate This
Seems Legia have lost their appeal.
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Whats the betting LW knew before the Murrayfield mstch thst he was probably still suspended and took a gamble they would get away with it by pleading ignorance n?
torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958) says:
August 14, 2014 at 1:33 pm
I suppose Phil’s information might be that the bulk of/all the institutional investors are preparing to dump their shares. This would obviously lead to a drop in price and losses all round but they might view it as better to get out while they can. At the same time it would solve the problem for the institutional investors of not being able to hold unlisted shares, if it should come to pass than RIFC is ultimately de-listed.
On the other hand, and it’s purely me thinking out loud 😯 , if RIFC do get de-listed (by choice or otherwise) before the institutional investors leave, would they then be pushing for all the assets to be realised and a voluntary liquidation take place?
Legia now fasttracking an appeal to CAS and hope to have a decision by Monday.
GoosyGoosy says:
August 14, 2014 at 2:12 pm
Whats the betting LW knew before the Murrayfield match that he was probably still suspended and took a gamble they would get away with it by pleading ignorance n?
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What’s the betting (given they could have just left him on the bench for those last four mins and tried to resolve the situation with UEFA between rounds) LW just made a erse of it and someone got confused with regard to how to appropriately deal with a suspended player registration.
Having played 29 appearances last year for LW it looks like Mr Bereszyński was a first choice.
LW clearly didn’t play him for three games (2 v St Pats and 1 v Celtic). If we are going to accept rumours then the one that he would get a win bonus from crossing the touch line for those last four minutes seems as good as any.
As many have said rules are rules and if they have to go out then so be it but IMHO it is just one of those situations where an admin error has been made and LW, given what is at stake, are doing what they feel is necessary to explore all options for staying in the CL.
If it were the other way around I would expect any Scottish club to do similar and most likely we would all take offense at implications of being up to no good.
Has it been clarified that hadthe LW player remained on the bench for the duration of the match, would the sanction have still applied?
Personally, I think that being a listed sub is the equivalent of being named to play and the four minute appearance is irrelevent.
Big Pink, re the offer to Hibs – there’s obviously limited information in the public domain but what is there looks to me like a significant undervaluing of the assets. The public comments from David Low for the bidders also seem to want to play to unrest in the fanbase. This looks a bit like the Fergus approach with what was really a low-skilled and resourced board at Celtic Park at that time – any thoughts as to why there might be a belief that Tom Farmer could be swayed by such an approach?
ThomtheThim at 4.oopm. Good point, If we take the stsndpoint that being listed on the 25 man sheet given to Uefa, but not selected in the 18 man list to play, then he has covered one of his games under suspension, but being named on the playing list itself constituted a breach of CL rules, and so suffered the consequences. This is my reading of the rules, but as always I am open to correction.
“Legia now fasttracking an appeal to CAS and hope to have a decision by Monday.”
Not a chance that can happen. Even fast track CAS takes weeks. Suarez case was heard under fast track rules.
jimmyczz says:
August 14, 2014 at 4:49 pm
“Legia now fasttracking an appeal to CAS and hope to have a decision by Monday.”
Not a chance that can happen. Even fast track CAS takes weeks. Suarez case was heard under fast track rules.
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2 points about this, I heard the CAS spokesman on Sky stating that it could be done in a couple of days, clearly as it will have to be done given the tie on Tuesday.
More importantly this is a simple judgement on whether the punishment is a fair one based on the evidence. The difference here is that there is a clear rule with a clear outcome for breaking it. I don’t see CAS actually deciding that a fundamental and well established UEFA rule is ‘unfair’ just because this tie ended up in a decisive victory.
The Suarez case was clearly a lot more complicated as there is no rule and punishment regarding the biting of opponents so a lot of judgement about ‘fair and reasonable punishments’ to be taken into account.
I think CAS will have agreed to a quick turnaround as this is an open and shut case, the best that might emerge from LWs point of view is a recommendation that UEFA take a look at their sanctions for admin errors but if I was LW coach I’d be preparing for a Europa League match! 🙂