“Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only saw a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to European success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.”
Thanks Danish Pastry for giving Big Pink the opportunity to nudge me (over a coffee I paid for – so how’s that for redistribution of income? 🙂 ) to blog again on the issue of redistribution of UEFA money whilst he was advocating gate sharing as an alternative.
I recall the redistribution debate being discussed on the first TSFM podcast Episode 1-01 of 9th Feb 2014 which can be found here:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/scottish-football-monitor/id817766886?mt=2
Listening to it again (I used “View in I Tunes”) I heard many of the recent comments on the previous blog being made in that podcast at or around:
9.58: The interdependent nature of the business of football. Why it is different from normal business.
10.50: Celtic/Rangers leaving the Scottish League making it immediately more competitive.
11.30: Clubs as a community resource (like museums or libraries not run for profit, providing a community service and staying solvent).
12.48: People have to let go of the notions that they have held about the nature of football and recognise it is a totally interdependent business.
13.55: Changing the Champions League format to European and Regional Leagues and raising the standard of all, not dropping standards of one to bring about competiveness.
25.50: A rethink at the top level with NEW thinking about redistribution of income using Champions League money.
27.50: The human dilemma.
So rather than repeat what was said originally and very well developed in the comments on the Michael Grant article on the previous blog, I thought I would look at what I think is the greatest barrier to change which was the last item above – the human dilemma. *
Modern football reminds me of a description of a scene from hell where a visitor looks into one room and sees an emaciated group around a table on which is set a large pot full of stew. They cannot eat because their arms have been set straight at the elbow and elongated so that they cannot get a spoon in their mouths. It is a miserable place. Then the visitor goes upstairs and enters a similar room with occupants similarly handicapped, but where everyone is well fed and contented. “How can this be?” he asks his guide. “Well downstairs all their energies are spent in the nigh impossible task of feeding their insatiable hunger, whilst up here they simply feed each other.”
The analogy is bent a little but not broken in the sense that there are fat and emaciated folk in the football version of the lower room but it is not a healthy place as the fat can themselves become emaciated over time (see Liverpool and even Man Utd) but, generally speaking, self-interest or rather what is perceived as self-interest, holds sway.
Human nature that causes the human dilemma is well reflected in normal business where dog eats dog, then eats the food of the dog it ate if it comes out top dog. Football however cannot exist on a dog eat dog basis because it is interdependent as a business. Dog eating dog is bad for business because over a period of time even the top dog will die of starvation.
Now without abusing the dog metaphor any further and risk attracting dog’s abuse, why is it that something which should be as self-evident as looking after each other is good for business, be such a hard sell?
I said in the podcast around 12.48 that folk need to let go of the notions they have clung on to about football, but why is that so difficult?
Perhaps the resistance to that change can be found, at least in the case of Celtic, who at present are asked in the current debate to make a sacrifice for others, either in the form of gate sharing or giving up some Champion Leagues winnings (if/when they qualify) can be found in the genesis of the club and the memory of that genesis passed from generation to generation.
Everyone knows that the original purpose that Brother Walfrid had for Celtic was to feed the poor in the East End of Glasgow and many of that poor had come from Ireland to be strangers in a strange land.
As a Calton man born in the Gallowgate, as was my grandfather (my dad was found under a cabbage in Well St) I’ve never really identified much with the Irish context of Celtic’s history, although I do recognise its importance to many supporters with Irish family ties, but that dimension adds a further layer to the human dilemma.
Think of it, you form a football club to raise money to feed yourself because you live in an environment where welcome mats are in short supply. That money raised is YOUR money. Your life depends on it as does your family’s as well as your close neighbour (usually in the same close). How prepared are you to share what income you have had to raise yourself with others who you believe have been less than charitable towards you?
Add that folk memory to the human selfish trait of wanting what you spend on football spent on meeting your own desire, which is to make you happy watching an entertaining and successful team on the park and you get an idea of where the resistance to a more equitable sharing comes from and how deep it goes.
I use Celtic here because they are my club and part of my life experience and I have no idea if other clubs experience that added layer of resistance to sharing, if indeed they are in position to share. But if we are ever to be able to introduce gate sharing or what I see as the easier alternative of redistribution of UEFA geld because in not coming direct from supporters pockets it has less of the Celtic folk memory layer to overcome, then those who will be asked to make a sacrifice have to be given the confidence that the aim is not to impoverish them (and the Celtic community memory of poverty and fighting it is as strong today in the form of The Celtic Foundation, The Kano Foundation and the numerous charity events organised by supporters and prominent blogs) but to enrich their neighbours, but doing so in such a way that they enrich themselves. That is the challenge.
In the upper room in the earlier hellish description, the occupiers present the ultimate example of charity in that in feeding each other they feed themselves.
- PS the podcast covers other issues that some 18 months later might still be of interest.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (215 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:49 pm
but every time discussions arise such as earlier tonight and people voice disgust at any Rangers representative being involved and are adamant that Rangers have no right to be considered to be part of Scottish football, I question why I even bother being here.
——————————————————————-
I guess my posting to that end may be part of your disappointment. I hope not, but as I was picked up on my original message didn’t quite come out as planned.
My point was not that Rangers shouldn’t be represented. Only that they are entitled to the same representation as everyone else – no more and no less. I think that’s fair? One thing I’d hate is for folks like yourself (of whom there are depressingly few here) to stop commenting. Then things really would be able to run wild.
P.S. I’m right behind Jimbo, I’d love to hear from you in a podcast. 5*
RyanGosling says:
Member: (215 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Castofthousands,
If the back pages had been dominated by Rangers, you’d have been screaming about bias. As it is, the back pages were dominated by the Scottish champions, and you are outraged about them featuring headlines that quote the captain of the side. I must ask, is there any circumstance in which you would be happy?
——————————————————————
I did also wonder how many column inches were devoted to the remaining 40 clubs?
I understand the point being made Castofthousands, we all perceive bias against our own, such is human nature. I’d only say that we often read that the blue side of Glasgow are adamant that the press is heavily biased towards the green side, and the green side view it the other way round. That probably means that the press are actually doing a better job (in terms of bias) with respect to those two clubs than either side would ever admit!
Meanwhile, the rest of us are just jealous that you actually have pages of content to read about your team in the first place!
Of course the quality/truthfulness of what is being written is another topic entirely….
tayred says:
Member: (199 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 9:11 am
RyanGosling says:
Member: (215 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Castofthousands,
If the back pages had been dominated by Rangers, you’d have been screaming about bias. As it is, the back pages were dominated by the Scottish champions, and you are outraged about them featuring headlines that quote the captain of the side. I must ask, is there any circumstance in which you would be happy?
——————————————————————
I did also wonder how many column inches were devoted to the remaining 40 clubs?
I understand the point being made Castofthousands, we all perceive bias against our own, such is human nature. I’d only say that we often read that the blue side of Glasgow are adamant that the press is heavily biased towards the green side, and the green side view it the other way round. That probably means that the press are actually doing a better job (in terms of bias) with respect to those two clubs than either side would ever admit!
Meanwhile, the rest of us are just jealous that you actually have pages of content to read about your team in the first place!
Of course the quality/truthfulness of what is being written is another topic entirely….
______________________________
I do wonder if there’s a country, anywhere else in the world, where the collective media give so many more – not just lines, not just inches, but whole pages – to the top of the second tier as opposed to the top of the top tier of their football league!
This is particularly strange, when, from the media’s own perspective, the second tier leaders were always expected to dominate, while the top tier’s leaders are, for the second year in succession, the unexpected ‘shock leaders’ promoted from the second tier the previous season! There’s a good, positive, Scottish football story there, one might think. There’s also a story in the media’s skewed priorities, no doubt about that! Neither story is likely to be written about anywhere other than on the internet!
For the record, I have absolutely no problem with European matches and performances taking centre stage over league placings and performances. They are the big story in the weeks the matches take place.
Don’t agree with the vehemence of the press pack to the Celtic manager, though. It’s almost as if he, single handedly, denied Scotland’s champions their ‘rightful place’ in Europe!!!
RyanGosling says:
Member: (215 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:49 pm
Jimbo,
On what grounds could Mike Ashley put Rangers into liquidation?
===========================
I don’t think liquidation was mentioned, just an insolvency event, which would almost certainly be administration, at least in the first instance.
We know that RIFC owes Ashley £5m, for which he has ample security, a floating charge over everything bar Ibrox for a start. What we don’t know are the precise terms of the loan. There has been speculation that RIFC are in default, possibly in regard to the 2 seats on the Board which SD are entitled to. But even if that is the case, and Ashley called in his £5m, I don’t think that would necessarily result in insolvency. There must be £5m in the bank at this point, surely.
Of course repaying the £5m would shorten the timescale before the next load of funding is required to keep the whole thing going, so instead of having funds to last until December/ January, some sort of cash injection would be required by October/November.
So I don’t believe that Ashley can pull the trigger at this stage. However if no funds are raised shortly, then that will change- assuming that there has been a default on the loan. If there hasn’t been a default, then King can just ignore Ashley for so long as he’s happy to do without the Rangers Retail income stream.
The criticisms of the media reaction to Celtic’s EC exit is wide of the mark I think. I think in terms of media coverage, that Celtic were always heading for a negative press in the wake of the Malmö defeat. The extent of the coverage is the obverse side of the blanket media coverage coin.
I don’t read too much into it by way of paranoia, and if I’m honest, I think most of what I have seen and heard is fair comment. I can also remember some very scathing headlines on the Gascoigne and Laudruo era Rangers post Euro flop.
What I do think is odd – a thought shared and communicated to me yesterday by the sports editor of a Scottish Daily – is that Celtic did not have a plan to mitigate that negative coverage. A clever PR guy would be planting stories about signing targets – perhaps even one about john Eustace 🙂 – to deflect attention.
One might even suppose that the failure to do so has left the Celtic manager on his own to take the flak.
I’d be less inclined to set m sights on the media in this instance and more on asking if the PR inaction was just slovenly – or deliberate. I know (Celtic PR guy) Ian Jamieson very well. He is a very smart guy, and a very likeable guy too for a Jambo 🙂 (sorry guys – couldn’t rest that!). He is definitely not slovenly, nor naïve in the ways of PR.
Perhaps a sign that the morale-sapping effect on our game as a whole is being felt as keenly at Celtic Park?
😮 Brilliant. Well done everyone.
neepheid says:
Member: (737 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 10:49 am
RyanGosling says:
Member: (215 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:49 pm
Jimbo,
On what grounds could Mike Ashley put Rangers into liquidation?
===========================
I don’t think liquidation was mentioned, just an insolvency event, which would almost certainly be administration, at least in the first instance.
We know that RIFC owes Ashley £5m, for which he has ample security, a floating charge over everything bar Ibrox for a start. What we don’t know are the precise terms of the loan. There has been speculation that RIFC are in default, possibly in regard to the 2 seats on the Board which SD are entitled to. But even if that is the case, and Ashley called in his £5m, I don’t think that would necessarily result in insolvency. There must be £5m in the bank at this point, surely.
Of course repaying the £5m would shorten the timescale before the next load of funding is required to keep the whole thing going, so instead of having funds to last until December/ January, some sort of cash injection would be required by October/November.
So I don’t believe that Ashley can pull the trigger at this stage. However if no funds are raised shortly, then that will change- assuming that there has been a default on the loan. If there hasn’t been a default, then King can just ignore Ashley for so long as he’s happy to do without the Rangers Retail income stream.
_____________________
I wonder, neeps, if in your post you have the answer to why Ashley has, as far as we know, made no move to demand the return of his (SD’s) £5m. With the bulk of the ST money still in the TRFC account, he might well consider this the best time to demand (if he can) the money, but, if the money isn’t actually what he wants, could it be that he is waiting for the time when the club is most stretched, and at his mercy, to renegotiate the terms in his favour? Again!
We, and probably King and co, don’t know Ashley’s eventual plans for his TRFC connection are, nor what he actually wants to happen over the £5m.
I have a sneaking suspicion he would like to see a situation occur (insolvency) where the rights to all badges and logos are ceded to him/SD in perpetuity, regardless of what form a ‘Rangers’ might take. That way he would make money from ‘Rangers’ strips, regardless of who owns the Ibrox club or, even, who makes the strips!
If I am in any way correct, what might appear to King, and many supporters, as being a clever strategy – not repaying the £5m as soon as funds were available might prove to be his, and TRFC’s, biggest mistake, ever!
Allyjambo,
The assumption built into your comment is that the terms of the loan allow for repayment on demand. I don’t know either way for sure, but as far as I remember the terms of the loan announced publicly were that there was no maturity date set, therefore we can speculate as to what games Mr Ashley may be playing but it could quite simply be that he’ll get the money back when Rangers decide to pay it and not before.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (216 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 11:56 am
Correct Ryan, I don’t know the repayment terms, though I doubt any businessman would be so careless as to leave that quite important part uncovered. There is, though, a reported ‘default’ condition that would trigger repayment and this has possibly been initiated by King’s rather hasty actions on unseating Ashley’s men from the board. There may well be other triggers already pulled, or about to be.
It may well be, though, that Ashley is happy to treat the loan in a way that so many banks treated their third world lending, he might never see it back, but will get it’s value three or four times over through RR in the meantime. And, of course, if he decides to make a noise at the time RIFC launch a share issue, the effect could be catastrophic, leading to an insolvency event and the consequences I described.
Something I would suggest, though, Ryan, is that while I might be totally wrong about absolutely everything at Ibrox, I will not suffer any of the consequences. If you are wrong in your assumptions, particularly with regard to Ashley’s loan, things look very black, indeed, for TRFC.
In saying all this, I acknowledge that you are more aware than most of TRFC’s supporters of the precarious situation your club remains in, but I wouldn’t base your hope for it’s future on what may, or may not, be known about the Ashley loan. There must be some reason why no one at TRFC/RIFC has stated that Ashley definitely can’t demand repayment, or that they will ensure any triggers are never pulled!
I see Zaliukas has been let go by Rangers now as well. Checking out Wee Stevies website for TRFC it lists a first team of just 18 players. That’s cutting things fine I would have thought? Are any of the listed youth players being regularly drafted in as substitutes?
Ryan,
I could be wrong, but I think that the terms of the loan included Ashley having two nominees appointed to the board.
Everyone has an opinion on this, but the one holds most ground amongst those people I have spoken to is that Rangers were in default immediately after Lambias and co were removed from the board.
If that consensus is correct, then the question becomes, “what is Ashley’s game then?” But as you say, it is always dangerous to base something on a premise which may not be correct.
On another note, what about your social convenor duties. Are you now in default of YOUR contracted promise to organise our get-together? 🙂
Big PinkBig Pink says:
Moderator: (382 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 10:54 am
That sounds more like spin-doctoring than normal PR. That’s what Level5 are being ridiculed for. Nothing wrong with licking your wounds for a few days. But I feel the some of the reaction is out of all proportion. A tasty Europa League draw has just come up, and the CL group Malmö have landed in looks far too high a mountain to climb. They’ll be hoping not to be humiliated. Money ain’t everything. Celtic have a chance to progress in Europe into the new year. Only negative thing is that there are no other Scottish teams in the Europa League!
RyanGosling says:
Member: (216 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 11:56 am
Allyjambo,
The assumption built into your comment is that the terms of the loan allow for repayment on demand. I don’t know either way for sure, but as far as I remember the terms of the loan announced publicly were that there was no maturity date set
==================
That’s my understanding too. But there may be terms and conditions that trigger repayment, and despite speculation, I don’t think anyone really knows who hasn’t examined the actual agreement.
However, I find the failure to repay voluntarily quite strange. It’s not really free money when a large part of retail income has been surrendered in return. I can only conclude that money is in short supply, but a share issue might solve that problem.
I can see these tweets from Mark Wotte creating waves already. Seems a fair observation, tbh.
I would think Warburton has created space by moving on McGregor and Zaliukas and will bring in other players by Tuesday, and maybe loanees beyond then. I also think that despite many of us having doubts (and continuing to have them about where the money’s coming from) the management team appear to have acted in a logical way, operating on a more limited budget.
For information, the other Championship clubs players lists:
RyanGosling says:
Member: (216 comments)
August 27, 2015 at 10:49 pm
I keep wanting to put money in, and I have a lot of respect for the mods and what they’re trying to do, but every time discussions arise such as earlier tonight and people voice disgust at any Rangers representative being involved and are adamant that Rangers have no right to be considered to be part of Scottish football, I question why I even bother being here.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hello Ryan.
I am obviously a celtic supporter but like yourself I am often disillusioned by this forum in that every new topic soon changes to some form of Rangers criticism.
If I was a Rangers fan (thankfully not 😉 ) I couldn’t see the point in being involved on here.
I wouldn’t call it a Celtic forum but its certainly close to being an anti Rangers forum.
For calling itself the Scottish football monitor it seems the only or certainly the main thing that is monitored is Rangers FC.
Last season Hearts were getting praised and patted on the back for putting together a young exciting team who took their division by storm, and this year we have Rangers playing good attacking, exciting football that your fans are buying into but not too much praise coming your way from the forum.
I think its time for an olive branch to decent football supporters like yourself and the forum actually trying to build bridges and help repair some of the damage of the last few years.
Have long said that I just can’t see any benefits for Ashley engineering a situation that would result in liquidation and him having his man dragged through the press.
However he does have form for getting himself into a position where an Administration event can produce the desire result in terms of his objectives.
Ashley surely only got involved with T’Rangers as he could see the potential to exploit the clubs merchandise income stream.
A deid club is of no use to him. Far better other do the hard work and pump in the needful day to day running costs.
He has however lined everything else up in his favour for a small level of ‘investment’.
He is in a win-win situation and can sit there without making any waves and still come out smelling of roses.
The only thing to worry about if I was a RRM was if he decided to make it personal and engineer a situation where a certain DCK was made to look foolish and ran him and his chums out the door.
Until the RRM put their hand in their pockets, Ashley still holds all the aces.
blu says:
Member: (214 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 2:35 pm
tayred says:
Member: (200 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 12:58 pm
For information, the other Championship clubs players lists:
Team Squad
Alloa 24
Dumbarton 22
Falkirk 32
Hibs 22
Livingston 27 (inc. player/manager)
Morton 19
QOTS 26 (inc. player/manager and player/coach)
Raith 27 (inc. four goalkeepers)
Rangers 18
St Mirren 21
______________________________________________________________
Cheers Blu. I’d imagine you are right, there must be some players being lined up to join – surely!
Now I’m worried about Falkirk though – seems a affa big squad!
Sounds like a few scoops in this blog from Phil:
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/big-mike-plans-for-the-future/#more-6739
RyanGosling says:
Member: (216 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 11:56 am
An interest free loan which you don’t have to pay back unless you feel like it.
I’ve never heard of such a thing.
wottpi says:
Member: (721 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 2:51 pm
Ashley surely only got involved with T’Rangers as he could see the potential to exploit the clubs merchandise income stream.
A deid club is of no use to him. Far better other do the hard work and pump in the needful day to day running costs.
======================================
Since Ashley parked his tanks on the lawn, I’ve been of the opinion that it doesn’t really matter to him whether there is an active TRFC or not.
He’ll sell memorabilia (shirts, strips, socks, mugs, holdalls etc. etc.) whether the team is extant or not. He has the badges, he can put them onto one of his brands (Sondico, or it could be Patrick, although perhaps not that one!), avoiding the costs of dealing with Puma or whoever, even issue an orange tap or two & the Follow, Follow folks will buy it, because “it’s in their DNA!”
I think it would take a couple of generations before that cow would be milked out.
spanishcelt says: August 28, 2015 at 2:37 pm
RyanGosling says: August 27, 2015 at 10:49 pm
=====================
I am sympathetic to both your views on both the blog’s largely anti-Rangers rhetoric and its failure to recognise improved on-field performances.
However (there was always going to be a “however”), I can understand that there remains a reluctance by some posters to accept the existence of a Rangers in any form, notwithstanding the expected (deserved?) derision of the newco and its achievements to date.
Personally, I take the more pragmatic view that “we are where we are” and “Rangers are where they are”, thus there has to a measure of acceptance of that reality or we will end up repeating the same arguments ad nauseum.
My view should not however be seen as deriding anyone who has a passion about getting to the truth, whether it is Auldheid re the Licensing issues, John Clark on the EBTs and many others about the 5WA, Scottish football’s continuing governance issues and a sycophantic SMSM.
I will also happily praise Rangers on field performances, but only after they start operating on a sustainable financial footing, otherwise King Co’s Rangers will as guilty of financial doping as the previous Murray, Whyte and Green Co. versions.
Did the nice Mr Ashley get any answer to his query about the terms of 3B’s loans at the EGM ? What conversion rate to shares they would get and any other accommodations proffered ?
Just read that a statue has been reported as missing at Ibrox.
…but I thought Lee McCulloch had been allowed to leave for free ?
Ah’ll get ma plinth. 🙄
In Canada dropping off wean no.2 at Uni, so missing updates.
Saw the headline stating that CFC’s loss is somehow TRFC’s ‘victory’.
The SMSM knows no depths to plummet.
From BBC Sports page –
If Liverpool/Tottenham win all games/Europa League prize money=approx. £11m Money earned in PL last season Liverpool £92.8m Tottenham £88.8m
Prof Simon Chadwick
Prof_Chadwick
Chris McLaughlin’s access rights restored at Ibrox.
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/club-news/item/9984-club-statement
FOLLOWING a meeting with the BBC the media privileges of Chris McLaughlin have been reinstated.
Rangers has received assurances from the BBC that their reporting of Rangers’ affairs will be balanced.
tayred says:
Member: (201 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 12:58 pm
I see Zaliukas has been let go by Rangers now as well. Checking out Wee Stevies website for TRFC it lists a first team of just 18 players. That’s cutting things fine I would have thought?
_______________
Thought that seemed a bit low so I had a check and, although McGregor has been removed, none of Oduwa/Bell/Zelalem are included in that list so it should be 21 first team players.
Also from BBC –
Mascot derby
Football
Posted at 16:27
Robert Thomson from the Scottish Sun has his finger on the pulse…
Robert Thomson
robertthomson55
Dundee’s Deewok 33/1 for the Mascot’s race at Hamilton tonight. Dundee Utd’s one is 12/1. Market led by that Partick Thistle madman at 2/1
8:42 a.m. – 28 August 2015
Kingsley
SNS
The market has since shifted… turns out Kingsley, the terrifying Thistle mascot, has drifted to 3/1…
Not sure where to begin here – in the sense that, once again, it shows that some people are living on a different planet and that ‘ne’er the twain shall meet’. Speaking to a ‘Sevco R..’ supporter today who commented with full conviction “it wasn’t right that we were demoted to the third division but I suppose that in the interest of sporting integrity we have to accept it” whit!!!
To be honest, I couldn’t be bothered arguing but simply said ‘Is that so?’, smiled and moved off.
The bottom line is that no one has a chance of persuading guys who are so blind until those ‘in authority’ either admit or are forced to do so, the whole truth of what happened to the liquidated club previously based at Ibrox.
The truth will out eventually.
easyJambo says:
Member: (739 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 5:24 pm
Chris McLaughlin’s access rights restored at Ibrox.
_____________________________________________________
Well that’s a load off … 🙂
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1380 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Sounds like a few scoops in this blog from Phil:
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/big-mike-plans-for-the-future/#more-6739
__________________
Strangely enough, I find some good news for TRFC supporters in Phil’s blog – Big Mike is still planning to put his own people into the boardroom at Ibrox, after getting rid of the current board. If his plan works, it will mean that all the King doubters have been 100% correct – King co don’t have the wherewithall to last the season, the big problem will be, though, if King refuses to let go of the club until it’s too late to avoid administration.
On the other hand, the point Ashley might step in may well depend on whether my earlier post suggesting he, or SD, will get outright ownership of all the badges, logos and trade marks of the real Rangers in the event of an administration, was correct.
Ah, Occam, the “we were relegated, it’s an injustice” line. My approach, and it’s only mine, is to say that such a momentous event, the relegation of a Big Club, nay, a Massive Club, seemed to have passed me by at the time. It must have merited mention in the papers, the TV, the radio? The Gers support will have been up in arms? You then offer them twenty smackers to tell you the precise date, as you want to check the newspaper archives. The Famous wallet, as previously noted, remains unopened.
I’m helped in this endeavour by the fact that the DR were kind enough to print a comment from me at the time of the then Sevco Scotland’s election to the league. I called into question Pretendygers’ (as we were still allowed to call them) right to a place in said league before they had played so much as a single game.
Ah, but this was all BCM (Before Continuity Myth).The Orwellian caravan has moved on, and such a comment would now be actionable, treasonable, and subject to much hissing, even in previously respectable papers.
I console myself that my club, recently defeated heavily by TRFC, have 137 years of history, by the happy accident of having been formed in the late 19th century. I wouldn’t lie about my own club, and I’m damned if I would lie about theirs. I keep a copy of the liquidators’ report handy, to avoid temptation.
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1182 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 5:47 pm
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1380 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Sounds like a few scoops in this blog from Phil:
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/big-mike-plans-for-the-future/#more-6739
__________________
Strangely enough, I find some good news for TRFC supporters in Phil’s blog – Big Mike is still planning to put his own people into the boardroom at Ibrox, after getting rid of the current board. If his plan works, it will mean that all the King doubters have been 100% correct – King co don’t have the wherewithall to last the season, the big problem will be, though, if King refuses to let go of the club until it’s too late to avoid administration.
On the other hand, the point Ashley might step in may well depend on whether my earlier post suggesting he, or SD, will get outright ownership of all the badges, logos and trade marks of the real Rangers in the event of an administration, was correct.
==========================================================
I had a Spidy sense Uncle Mike was about to move some way or other.
Ryan its not a sense of anti Rangers ness that keeps me after this subject its the utter inability of the support to see yet another faux leader coming over the hill and the human reaction that greets a saviour of any paint parading before them in the latest set of Emperors clothes. JJ sit on fence has quite clearly had previous with DCK in business and really ought to be praised by all rangers fans for exposing him for what he is.
As I said I think on here had my big Rangers pal at FP for Aberdeen game a few weeks back and yet again even after I explained to him in minute detail what was going on he bought in with the fan group.
Me – Graham Your gullible and mental.
Him – Its my money and its Rangers.
So go figure.
Given the slashing of areas of our wage bill, and the large increase in crowds at Ibrox from last season, I am very sceptical of this latest fore-telling of doom, but then I’ve inbuilt blue-tinted spectacles…. 🙂
Can someone assist in providing a simple breakdown of the maths – current balance, net income, net outgoings – that will see us, according to Mr. Mac Giolla Bhain, potentially out of business within 12 weeks?
ianagain says:
Member: (699 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 7:45 pm
I’d keep my powder dry with that Spidey sense think just now.
Phil was hinting at a three pronged attack and other things a while back but we have yet to see anything concrete develop.
However I do appreciate these things can take time and I have said for sometime the whole thing will come down to cash flow. As mentioned a few posts back Ashley is in a position where he can jump into action at any time he fees the situation is to his advantage.
My guess is that he will just wait and see if DCK and the other RRM come up with the cash to plough into the day to day running. My guess is that if any money is raised it will not be enough to clear the ongoing debts and make solid investment for an attack on the premiership) If the RMM raise enough money to get by he can sit back and coin in the RR money until such times they decide to repay the £5m loan.
If things look tricky then he can start up the tanks and connect up the loud speakers blaring out ‘I told you so’.
Even if he can’t wholly take control of a business coming out of Admin I’d happily put a fiver on it that he might have some as yet unknown associates lined up who could act on his behalf just on the right side of the shadow director stuff you understand 🙂
As Allyjambo says if there enough addicts out there, there is still money to be made.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (384 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 11:45 pm
‘..Unfortunately I still have no tangible progress to report on premises,..’
_________
Seems to be very quiet tonight (were we all at the Falkirk/Dumbartongame?):grin:
so I’ll take the opportunity to ask whether there has been any movement in deciding what will be the nature of any ‘legal persona’ that SFM will have? I assume that at the moment it is individuals who would sign any premises leasing arrangement? Or will , for example, ‘Big Pink Trisidium and others Ltd’ sign the deed? Can anything be said at this stage?
I hear peace has broken out viz a viz BBC sports Scotland and the team they spend most of their time writing about. All is well.
Well that’s nice.
Will they cover any other teams on the radio now (other than the previously banned ones)
Er no they wont you will get Updates on BBC Radio Scotland & BBC Sport website.
Until the following day I assume.
Normal service resumed.
You can all take it I’m very very very affronted by this.
STICKY
Well folks. Target reached – a day early too 🙂
A monkey off our back, and the begging bowl can be put away for the next six months at least.
Thanks to everyone who responded and dug into their hard-earned to help us grow together with our new plans.
The thing we need from you now is to keep coming here, and to invite others you know to do the same; to take part in our discussion and become part of the movement to get our arguments across to an even wider public.
Unfortunately I still have no tangible progress to report on premises, but I feel sure that we will have something to say about that early next week when Tris returns from his sojourn.
Once again, thanks to everyone.
spanishcelt says:
Member: (33 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 2:37 pm
‘… it seems the only or certainly the main thing that is monitored is Rangers FC…’
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In so far as what you say, spanishcelt, is true ( not that I am saying it is untrue), the foundational ( to coin a word: my machine has put a wee red wavy line under it as though the word doesn’t exist!)belief of RTC , seamlessly carried forward by SFM, is that the liquidation of one club panicked our football authorities into abandoning their personal integrity and the notion of sporting integrity.
Our present concern is that if the new-club-masquerading-as-the-old takes a dive into Liquidation, dirty deals may again be done by the same authorities, compounding their offence, and making it ever more clear that football in Scotland is as rigged as a casino wheel in Las Vegas or Monaco.
It is therefore inevitable that this blog is, as best as it can, watching every little wrinkle of the financial position of the new club.( If only the SDM worshipers had taken such interest when it really mattered!)
We need to know what to expect if ( and it is an ‘if’)TRFC/RIFC become insolvent.
So that we can make damn sure that our Football Authorities don’t again make a mockery of their own rules while giving us the two fingers.
It is , therefore, not very surprising that the football successes of Warburton’s regime ( and what does his obvious ability and football savvy say about ‘the gardener’?) are not featured as much as,in a true sporting environment, they might otherwise be.
That is regrettable, certainly.And I personally, and, I think, this blog, have no more particular interest in the success or failure of the new club than in the success or failure of any other club.
It is the past failure of our Football regulators and the likelihood of further failure to act honestly and with integrity if faced with a belly-up by TRFC that concerns me.
And should concern even non-football supporters and ordinary folk with no interest in any sport, but with an interest in truth and fair play in whatever context.
BP
I know we have never gone multimja apart from the podcasts but may I suggest ” Dancing in the street” for anyone logging in tonight?
John Clark says:
Member: (1140 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 10:21 pm (Edit)
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (384 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 11:45 pm
‘..Unfortunately I still have no tangible progress to report on premises,..’
_________
Seems to be very quiet tonight (were we all at the Falkirk/Dumbartongame?):grin:
so I’ll take the opportunity to ask whether there has been any movement in deciding what will be the nature of any ‘legal persona’ that SFM will have? I assume that at the moment it is individuals who would sign any premises leasing arrangement? Or will , for example, ‘Big Pink Trisidium and others Ltd’ sign the deed? Can anything be said at this stage?
______________________________________________________
John,
The legal form we will take is dependent on two things; the amount of cash we can raise via commercial enterprise, and the extent of our exposure to liabilities brought about by possible defamation etc.
We will be taking some legal advice on that. There may be a point where a limited liability entity becomes more suitable – for instance if we decide to go ahead with a crowd funding scheme next year. It may also be that the same structure is a better protection for individuals involved.
Anyone of our legal types who is able to offer any advice, we would be happy to hear from you privately.
We had considered a partnership with myself, Tris, and two other people (non-posters) who have helped out considerably over the last year, but all three of the other guys want to retain their anonymity. In that event, t has fallen to me to put my name on the hosting, bank and other documents. It will be me who signs any contract for premises hire.
One thing I am very keen to do over the next couple of weeks is to enlist some people to become advisory board members or patrons of SFM. I’m quite relaxed about foregoing my anonymity, but I’d rather not have my name up in lights on my own.
One of the good things about the possible blog get-together is that familiarity may make others less wary of being “outed”.
Big Pink,
I’d like to become an advisory board member because I think it is important that there is a strong Rangers presence on the board.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (385 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 12:55 am
‘.The legal form we will take is dependent on two things; the amount of cash we can raise via commercial enterprise, and the extent of our exposure to liabilities brought about by possible defamation etc.’
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Thank you,Big Pink, for that sketch of possible scenarios/intentions.
Regrettably, I have no expertise in this field.
I think only of a not-for-profit legal entity that would be entitled to try to raise funds to further the aims of of its membership, and whose membership’s liability would be limited.
Whether such a beast exists, I do not know!
burghGer says:
Member: (47 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 9:38 pm
Given the slashing of areas of our wage bill, and the large increase in crowds at Ibrox from last season, I am very sceptical of this latest fore-telling of doom, but then I’ve inbuilt blue-tinted spectacles…. 🙂
burghGer says:
Member: (47 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 9:38 pm
Given the slashing of areas of our wage bill, and the large increase in crowds at Ibrox from last season, I am very sceptical of this latest fore-telling of doom, but then I’ve inbuilt blue-tinted spectacles…. 🙂
Can someone assist in providing a simple breakdown of the maths – current balance, net income, net outgoings – that will see us, according to Mr. Mac Giolla Bhain, potentially out of business within 12 weeks?
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May I point you instead of here to:
https://twitter.com/sitonfence?lang=en
A True blue gers fan that actually knows what trouble there is.
Happy to help 😀
Allyjambo on August 28, 2015 at 5:47 pm
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I also thought it positive for Ibrox fans that Ashley is reportedly still interested.
But out comes Craig Whyte again, claiming Sevco 5088 own the assets, which, by the odd logic used in this story, means that Sevco 5088 could be the real newco (if assets included ‘the history’ :irony: ). If so, do they then start again in the bottom tier? Or apply for membership?
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13634356.Company_linked_to_Craig_Whyte_makes_claim_on___18m_oldco_Rangers_plc_creditors_pot/?ref=twtrec
PS It’s obviously Whyte’s claim that has re-surfaced via the 3rd party route, not Whyte directly. But to all intents and purposes… 😉
ianagain says:
Member: (702 comments)
“Given the slashing of areas of our wage bill, and the large increase in crowds at Ibrox from last season, I am very sceptical of this latest fore-telling of doom, but then I’ve inbuilt blue-tinted spectacles….”
How does he know the wage bill has been “slashed”, has there been some sort of announcement with regards the salaries of all the new players.
I think the more important issue is that something like 17 or 18 players have now left Rangers (including last years player of the year for nothing). They have been replaced to a large extent by free agents and loan players. Indeed the club was unwilling or unable to offer as much as £300k to buy Scott Allan. In my opinion if they had wanted the player enough to pay a reasonable amount then Hibs would have sold, as I said just an opinion.
Again in my opinion, there is no cash for expenditure on player registrations, and given the situation other clubs will not be keen on buy now pay later deals. Without a line of credit buying those registrations simply isn’t an option as the money just isn’t there. Every penny Rangers have is going on paying bills as they fall due because to not do so is simply not an option.
Everything I see strongly indicates a business struggling to make ends meet, and if there is a share issue designed simply to be pay outstanding loans and fund the costs for the rest of the season then that is just one more indicator.
If the chap wants some maths then season ticket sales, on average and net of tax etc will come to say £225 x 35,000 or a bit short of £8m. With success then say another 10,000 go to home games, at £20 (after tax) that’s about another £4m. Assuming cup runs and 9 games (I made that up) at £20 but halved so 22,000 (if they are all home and sell 44,000) That’s another £4m. That’s a total of £16m, and I think that is a generous figure with assumptions made in the clubs ffavour.
Here’s the problem. The costs in the last couple of audited accounts have been around £30m. So even if costs have been cut by £5m it still leaves a discrepancy of £9m. Where is that money going to come from, with very little merchandising income. Simple answer, share issue, further loans or sale of assets.
So we have the June 2015 accounts which I believe will show a considerable loss, outstanding loans of around £8m and a business which continues to lose money, that’s where the “fore-telling of doom” comes from.
Ryan @ 1.32 am
Thumbed up for the shere gallousness! (Not a word either)
burghGer says:
Member: (47 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 9:38 pm
Can someone assist in providing a simple breakdown of the maths – current balance, net income, net outgoings – that will see us, according to Mr. Mac Giolla Bhain, potentially out of business within 12 weeks?
===========================
Since the company delisted (or more accurately, was booted off AIM ) there is very little information in the public domain. I’m sure King is happy about that, since it has killed off the interminable press speculation which followed every regulatory announcement.
Clearly the playing side wage bill has been significantly cut, and if the directors are really working for nothing, then without a CEO and Finance Director, the Boardroom costs will also be well down.
However I doubt if the company is breaking even yet, since the fixed costs of Ibrox and Murray Park are high. Whether the company can ever break even without significant retail income must be doubtful.
I think it’s pretty certain that the money currently in the bank from ST sales will run out by January, but I’m sure King has a cunning plan to raise more capital before that point is reached.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1382 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 6:49 am
They aren’t saying that Sevco 5088 own the assets from what I can see. They are saying that “… it holds a security over Rangers oldco RFC 2012 plc.”
In essence they are claiming that they have a floating charge (as creditors) and as such they are the secured creditor and should be paid in full before anyone else get’s anything. I’m surprised it has taken so long for this to be reported on.
Remember, Wavetower (as was) did not pay off the debt, they bought it, along with the floating charge over it.
Craig Whyte (through his companies) was two things, the major shareholder and the major secured creditor.
Very poor reporting btw “Their claim, which is expected to be strenuously challenged by the oldco liquidators, if successful, would make them the only secured creditor and first in line ahead of the taxman and ticket agency Ticketus and other unsecured debtors to take money from the pot.”
Why would debtors be “taking money from the pot”, they would be putting it in surely.
I don’t think Whyte has never gone away.
Nor has Ashley.
Both just biding their time.
I think there is still business to be done and everyone who was at the meeting in Switzerland our old, late friend Corsica told us about has some kind of role.
I don’t know what they agreed or even if they agreed anything apart from revenue streams.
We’re a few years down the tracks and there has been more than enough confusion to cover everybody’s tracks.
There is no doubt it has been a dripping roast and still is for Corsica’s Cabal who have expertly carved up the dead club at the expense of the fans including the rich ones and the city too.
And once again I am reminded of the “Dem Bones” metaphor that someone on here incisively used to illustrate the connectivity in this story that doesn’t always seem obvious but shouldn’t be overlooked.
As per the Ryan Gosling comments at 1.32am.
He thinks it’s important that we have a strong Rangers presence on the board.
I may be naive on this one but I don’t think having a real Rangers man on the board is necessarily a good thing . . . 🙄
burghGer says:
Member: (47 comments)
August 28, 2015 at 9:38 pm
Given the slashing of areas of our wage bill, and the large increase in crowds at Ibrox from last season, I am very sceptical of this latest fore-telling of doom, but then I’ve inbuilt blue-tinted spectacles…. 🙂
Can someone assist in providing a simple breakdown of the maths – current balance, net income, net outgoings – that will see us, according to Mr. Mac Giolla Bhain, potentially out of business within 12 weeks?
______________________________
I don’t have the figures to give you, there are others far better at it here than I, but the fact you are on here asking for them goes some way to showing you why you should not be in the least complacent about the financial state of your club.
Your own chairman was bandying about figures of between £20-50m being required not so long ago, as additional working capital, and, as yet…
Then there’s the fact that even well massaged accounts have shown year on year losses all of over £10m (as I say, not got the actual figures). Basically, until they save/increase revenue by more than £10m a year, the losses continue. We know they have debts of £9.5m, but there will be other debts too that need paying soon. I doubt ST sales brought in anything close to £10m, though walk ups are undoubtedly better than expected. I’d suggest the increased income plus savings barely scratches the traditional annual loss, while, if PMGB’s informants are reliable, the boards expenses might well have gobbled the improvement up already! Notice I’ve not even mentioned the ‘onerous contracts’ yet, which have been admitted as existing by the board, but have not been quantified, yet even without them the picture is bleak.
There are reasons why fee-hungry auditors might refuse a new client (fears for staff safety, outside of the criminal business world, being a new one), usually it will be because they doubt the potential client’s ability to meet those fees and their request for payment up-front has been declined, or that they can tell that there is so much wrong with the companies finances that there will be going concern issues. A company on the up will seldom, if ever, have problems finding an auditor.
Lastly, your fellow supporters now accept that Whyte and Green lied to you, misled you, and took money out of the club. King is a known liar with similar business methods to the other two. He has already told you massive lies to get what he wanted. The media, your only source of positive news, gave you a constant flow of succulent lamb throughout the Whyte and Green eras, right up to the point their spivery became too obvious to ignore. They are doing the exact same with the current board. You are here because you know this is the only place you can trust, though you may choose to ignore the warnings.
There are reasons why TRFC/RIFC are not leaking financial figures to the media. There are reasons why the media is not chasing stories about the clubs finances. You will read nothing in the media that is not filtered through a PR company. It is the sole purpose of a PR company to hype up the good news and bury the bad. Your club’s PR firm is run by a man complicit in much of the lies you were fed before. Even then, you still have to come here with questions about the finances of your club in the hope of reading figures that give you hope. If there was anything good about them, don’t you think you’d have heard or read something from the media by now?
ianagain says:
Member: (702 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 2:06 am
that will see us, according to Mr. Mac Giolla Bhain, potentially out of business within 12 weeks?
======================================================
Does the SFA,SFL know about this?
Have they been given “The Nod”
Have they got the old crew back together for secret meeting’s (in Switserland,if i remember right)
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Anyone got a tape recorder
-The SFA have previous you know.Or maybe they don’t know anything.Would someone drop them an e-mail and give them a heads up.wonder what the response would be,could be a keeper.
Finloch says:
August 29, 2015 at 9:11 am
I don’t think Whyte has never gone away.
Sorry stupid typo and double negative
……………………
Should read “I don’t think Mr Whyte has ever gone away”.
And why would he until he has milked his £1 investment?
Homunculus says:
Member: (221 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 9:08 am
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Thanks, I think I’m beginning to grasp the first outer layer of the onion again 🙂
* So Whyte, essentially, took over the bank’s creditor status?
The article was a bit confusing in club/company terminology.
* If it turns out that Sevco 5088 was the actual vehicle that did the deal with D&P, where does that leave Sevco Scotland (now renamed) and Sevco 5088 (which has not been struck off, as far as I know)?
It’s almost as though someone built a very complicated labyrinth.
Smugas / rougvielovesthejungle,
While I’d be happy to help out with anything if asked, it was very much a tongue in cheek comment playing on the recent conversations about Rangers representation at debates and in media etc. Given the star rating of the comment currently I’m not sure my attempt at dry wit has properly shone through!
The action of Law Financial against the Oldco at this point in time is not a surprise, although I do believe that it is a last gasp effort to obtain some sort of a settlement in its favour.
Law Financial is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Worthington Group (WRN – trading currently suspended on AIM). WRN issued a statement to AIM back in March that set out some timescales by which legal action needed to be taken, otherwise outstanding loan notes would lose their value. The date set was in late September.
http://www.lse.co.uk/share-regulatory-news.asp?shareprice=WRN&ArticleCode=56gfz4d0&ArticleHeadline=Capital_Structure_Warrants_and_Loan_Stock
The relevant paragraph reads:
The other impact of the legal action now is that King will not, as yet, have received any dividend from BDO in respect of his £20M claim as a creditor.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (218 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 10:34 am
…Given the star rating of the comment currently I’m not sure my attempt at dry wit has properly shone through!
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Which is a pity and shows we need to lighten up, ‘Clumpany’ style 😀
You know Ryan, as Ally mentioned, if Ashley is still serious, it’s really the best news for a very long time. He’d never let it go to the wall if he was holding the reins, even from a distance. And as we’ve seen this past week, even a club operating on a budget less than half of Celtic’s can still reach the top European competition.
The most discouraging thing I hear on the phone-ins is, ‘Aw naw, they’ll huv tae get the chequebook oot noo!’ And that doesn’t matter which club is mentioned. I’d rather hear, ‘About time they brought through some of the academy kids, who are hungry to prove themselves, and give them a chance.’ Until the imbalance of finances from Sky, BT & even BBC is addressed north of the border then the game is where it is. Actually, it’s been getting far more entertaining since the Scottish ‘transfer window’ ceased to have any real meaning. The live EPL spending circus on Sky is an abomination, imo.
Don’t know if you saw what Mark Wotte tweeted yesterday, but it seems Ajax dropped into the Europa League with a team that included nine academy players!
Re the Law Financial claim against the Oldco – I wonder if the claim marks the end of the Newco’s “contingent liability” in respect of the “Letter before claim”.
You would have to think that, legally, the claims against the Oldco and Newco have to be independent, but I suspect that they are very similar in seeking the value of the same set of assets (mainly those sold by D&P to Green).
Danish Pastry,
I’m not sure I agree about Mr Ashley being good news. Yes, it may mean he wouldn’t let the business fold, but if it’s between that and having the majority of revenue going to Sports Direct rather than Rangers then frankly I’d sooner be done with it.
I agree strongly with your other points though. I’ve said many times I think Rangers missed a great opportunity in the third division to build a young team, and focus on getting the coaching and youth / scouting set up properly then.
But that’s definitely the way I think Scottish football should head in general, the majority of player spending should be on coaching and scouting young players, with actual transfer outlay being a last resort. No players should be bought beyond the age of say 25 as it should all be about team building and bringing in players who can be sold for value. We should have high and publicised buy out clauses for players so that when the predators come calling they’ll know what they have to spend if they’re serious. Frankly I also miss the three foreigner rule.
To come back to Rangers, I’m actually a fan of the way we’ve been bringing in hot young prospects on loan. Have you seen the map of Europe showing where Chelsea have farmed out players? They’re everywhere! Let the rich elite waste their money buying up every talented player they can find, if our clubs have good coaching set ups they will be clubs where the rich boys actually want to send their young players on loan, and we could end up bringing a higher standard of player to Scotland without the bother of actually paying for them.
To add to some earlier comments by other posters…
My interest was piqued by the Herald article on the latest development in the Sevco 5088 asset claim. This para seemed to reasonably sum up the position as I understood it :
“In April, 2013, Worthington revealed it had been granted an option to acquire the whole of Law Financial Ltd which included Sevco 5088, which it said held a claim “independently reviewed by leading counsel…to all of the business and assets of RFC 2012 plc which were purchased by Sevco 5088 Limited or Sevco Scotland Ltd from the administrators… in June of 2012”.”
Basically Whyte et al claimed that they owned the assets now shown in the books of RIFC/TRFC. This claim was noted in those companies annual accounts.
The article however seems to indicate a change of strategy in that “Law Financial Ltd is seeking up to £25 million saying it holds a security over Rangers oldco RFC 2012 plc. It was first inherited by Mr Whyte when he bought the club from Sir David Murray in May 2011.”
My reading of this is that they are now effectively saying that the assets owned by RIFC/TRFC are not encumbered by a claim from them/Whyte (unless they are also pursuing a parallel claim against RIFC as noted above) as they have a different claim against the company in liquidation. The fact that BDO secured an unexpected and substantial influx of funds after the Collyer Bristow settlement may be a factor here.
Certainly in the event that BDO accepts this new claim then that would seem to free up the claimed RIFC/TRFC assets for use as security. I know that certain assets have already been used for this purpose but Ibrox itself has remained outwith such arrangements for reasons that are not yet clear.
An interesting development or a last gasp as EJ speculates?
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (219 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 11:22 am
I realise Ashley would not be your ‘dream owner’ but in your post you highlight the difference in the attitude of Rangers supporters to that of Hearts, and probably all other clubs. You seem to prefer the idea of oblivion to mediocrity!
Throughout all of Hearts darkest days I knew that all I wanted was for Hearts to survive; if they’d ended up so broke, but alive, that they went, season on season, all the way down to the bottom tier, I would have been happy to accept our lot. Even now, European football is not on my wanted list, never mind a ‘must have’.
It’s quite clear that this ‘rightful place’ nonsense has blighted your club to such an extent that it’s ‘all or nothing’, with ‘nothing’ looking closer than ‘all’ as a result.
If even you, a man clearly amongst the more sensible and realistic supporters of TRFC, can only follow a highly successful club (or one with a high expectation of success), what chance is there for TRFC surviving if, as Paul Murray himself said, it takes at least seven years for the club to be in a position to challenge Celtic?
I’m sure you are aware that the only chance for survival under the present model is for some rich man, with millions to burn, to come along and ‘donate’ his wealth to the cause. Or for the support to find in the region of £20m this season (year?) with more to follow, season on season, to have any chance of a better life than would be the case under Ashley!
It seems you have very much misinterpreted me Allyjambo. It wasn’t overly clear from my comment what I meant, so apologies, I shall clarify.
I in no way meant that I would prefer oblivion to mediocrity. What I do hate is the idea of the club existing only as a merchandise division of a sports retail company, with the owner seeing it as nothing more than a means of producing shirt sales. Contracts being set up to take all revenue out of the club, as happened when Mr Ashley was running the show previously. And when that happens, there is no hope for the future because no matter how successful the club ever was, it would have no opportunity to reap the rewards of, and build on, that success. And it is that very absence of hope for the future that leads me to say I’d rather be done with it.
If I may be delicate, while I accept that my comment was somewhat vague, I’m a little disappointed that you automatically reached the conclusion that I was of a different mindset to followers of all other clubs and was infected with “rightful place” nonsense. Thankfully you didn’t mention WATP.
“Head of Commercial Appointed
RANGERS Football Club is pleased to confirm the appointment of Scott Steedman as Head of Commercial, initially on a fixed-term contract.
Scott has a wealth of experience in football and joins the Club following a successful period with the SPFL where he played an important role in securing Ladbrokes as the league’s title sponsor.
Before his spell at Hampden he was Head of Sales and Marketing at English Premier League side Southampton and has strong links with UEFA having fulfilled the role of External Venue Operations and Broadcast Manager since 2011.
Rangers Managing Director Stewart Robertson commented: “We are pleased to welcome Scott to Rangers as our new Head of Commercial.
“This is an area of the business that requires strengthening and Scott’s commercial and sponsorship experience will be an asset to the Club going forward. We wish him well in his new role.””
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/club-news/item/9985-head-of-commercial-appointed
Firstly, I was surprised that such a press statement would comment on the type of contract agreed between the parties. Is there a nervousness over adding to long term overhead?
Secondly the PR gloss on Mr Steedman’s career is undermined by the briefest of investigation. His employment history has very short spells indeed at the SPFL and Southampton FC :
Commercial Director, SPFL April 2014 – August 2015 (1 year 5 months)
Head of Sales and Marketing/Chief Commercial Officer, Southampton Football Club September 2010 – August 2011 (1 year)
Interestingly he seems to have had other jobs at the same time :
Director, Progress Sponsorship & Communications June 2012 – Present (3 years 3 months)
External Venue Operations and Broadcasts Manager, UEFA June 2011 – Present (4 years 3 months)
In view of the wording of the RIFC/TRFC press release and his other interests is Mr Steedman perhaps just on a retainer and a percentage of income generated?
His other qualification may well be in his name. Does the Steedman family not have some experience of clubs going out of business and rematerialising in another guise?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clydebank_F.C.
Scottish Football needs a strong investigative MSM actually willing to spend a few minutes checking press releases and the actual background that pertains.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (219 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 11:22 am
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Yes, it’s the way to go.
In the years I’ve been in Scandinavia that is what has happened in these countries. While Scottish football was on an unsustainable spending spree and neglecting its own, the countries over here brought through wave after wave of super talented players who went on to play in top clubs all across Europe. And their national teams have benefitted, many of them qualifying for international tournaments Scotland has missed out on for far too long. The Danes, we used to beat regularly, had great runs at the Euros, winning it once and the Swedes got to a World Cup semi in the ‘90s and ended up with the bronze medal. They’ve also done well in World Cups since by progressing from the opening rounds at least twice, something Scotland is still dreaming of. Iceland is getting results that almost defy logic for a population of 300,000 and even winter sport freaks Norway have lifted their club and national game to an impressive level. Finland is probably the only Nordic country that has stood more or less still. But it is, like Norway, big on winter sports. Meanwhile in Alba … there’s maybe light at the end of the tunnel.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1385 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 10:32 am
There are two separate issues here. The unsecured creditor and who bought the assets of the old company and placed them into a new entity.
1, Craig Whyte ultimately was the major shareholder in the old company. Wavetower bought c85% of the shares from David Murray’s companies for £1. Wavetower was wholly owned by Liberty Capital, which was wholly owned by Craig Whyte. (From memory)
However more importantly from the present perspective he also purchased the debts to Lloyds. He paid £18m for £18m debt, so he got the floating charge along with that. Making him the secured creditor. That’s the point of the current claim, which has been going on for some time. (He used the money from Ticketus to do that).
2, Duff and Phelps made a binding agreement to sell the assets if the CVA failed (we won’t go into how corrupt that was, that has been discussed to death). The main point is that the deal was with Sevco 5088. That is a recorded fact.
However they ultimately sold the assets to Sevco (Scotland), a different business which happened to have a similar name. The administrators had no right to do that (unless there was a deed of novation allowing it to happen). The big question is, if such a deed exists who from Sevco 5088 authorised it. It was their “right”, agreed with the administrator. They would have had to agree that right being novated to another entity.
Again Whyte is looking to wear two hats (like he did as owner/creditor).
For the old company he wants all of the money which is raised in liquidation. For the new company he claims it was his right to buy the assets and that someone else stole it from him. He wants compensated for that.
If we ignore everything else (all of the corruption, lies, deception and double dealing) and look at it in simple terms, he actually has a point in both cases. On the face f it he has a claim against both the old company (IL) and the new company. He certainly has a brass neck.
easyJambo says:
Member: (741 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 10:41 am
Maybe you can explain to me, why is King a creditor of the old club.
RyanGosling says:
Member: (220 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 12:09 pm
My apologies for misunderstanding your post and hope that in raising that particular point (having misunderstood it) I’ve allowed you the opportunity to clarify it rather than leave others misunderstanding it also. I am glad you see it differently from how I interpreted it and wonder if you agree, though, that others do see it in that way and that it has held back TRFC’s progress?
In my own defence, you clearly see how I may have misinterpreted your post and I didn’t accuse you of being infected by the ‘rightful place’ mindset as, by that time, I was referring to the support as a whole. In my first paragraph the reference to you said that your post ‘highlighted’ the difference in attitude of Rangers supporters, I didn’t suggest that you, personally, were displaying a different attitude, as my later acknowledgement I’d hoped would make clear. I did, though, take your ‘I’d sooner be done with it’ to mean the end, for you at least, of the club.
The problems with misinterpretation of posts has been highlighted before, and this is another case in point. It becomes even worse when trying to explain oneself, so I hope I haven’t made myself look even more anti-Ryan than I must have looked when you read my original post.
Allyjambo – nope, no problem, all understood. Glad we’ve sorted that out.
I would agree that some of the support see it that way and I would agree that such a mindset has held us back / got us into trouble. However I think the vastly dwindling attendance numbers of last year were largely due to the problems I highlighted with lack of hope and disillusionment, rather than just “all or nothing” or the utterly shite football on display.
RyanGosling at 10.34am
Of course I knew your comments were tongue in cheek.
I mean who would want a Real Rangers Man on the board of anything? Especially a fitba club that plays in blue!
A few judges in South Africa will confirm this.
John Clark says:
Member: (1142 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 12:43 am
“And should concern even non-football supporters and ordinary folk with no interest in any sport, but with an interest in truth and fair play in whatever context”
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That’s why I’m here John.
HomunculusHomunculus says:
Member: (223 comments)
August 29, 2015 at 12:23 pm
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Brass neck but one step ahead of everyone? His recordings (I imagine Charlotte Fakes was someone directly connected to Craig Whyte in some way), are very revealing. And you wonder if there are more, as yet unheard. Hope so.
Fascinating twist to the plot, as was Phil’s little teaser about one of the former Ibrox hierarchy speaking to Ashley. For a second I had thought it just might have been Craig Whyte 🙂
Homunculus says: August 29, 2015 at 12:28 pm
easyJambo says: August 29, 2015 at 10:41 am
Maybe you can explain to me, why is King a creditor of the old club.
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I was hoping that someone would explain it to me first. 🙄