I think there has been an appreciable shift of opinion amongst fans of TRFC recently.
Unlike the ‘invest: speculate to accumulate’ rhetoric featured in the press and by ex-players, the ordinary fans are coming to the realisation that there is no quick fix. There are even murmurings that there may never be a fix which involves their club becoming a competitive force.
Poor management of fan expectations has long been an accusation levelled at the TRFC board by SFM. It is possible though that many fans are beginning to manage their own expectations rather better. There are certainly justifiable criticisms of the manager, Mark Warburton, but alongside that is a realism about the limitations and constraints that he is working under.
There is a rather misguided, and possibly not accurate assumption that another liquidation for a team out of Ibrox would result in having to start ‘yet again’ in the bottom division; but in fact there is a growing acceptance that consolidation in the top league is a much better solution than gambling on huge borrowing simply to stop Celtic adding more notches to the goalpost.
Could it be that the fans are about to do the job that the board haven’t had the balls to do –accept the gap between themselves and (at least) Celtic, and settle for mediocrity on the field as a short term price to pay for continuity?
During the 1990s, in the middle of the Murray/BoS fuelled spending spree, and with Celtic in the doldrums, it seemed to many Celtic fans that their club would never be able to bridge that gap. Of course they did, but at the emotional cost of losing the exclusive 9IAR record.
TRFC now find themselves in pretty much the same position, but their road to bridging the current gap is a more difficult one.
There are similarities of course. Like the Celtic of the 90s, Rangers have major infrastructure challenges to meet. Celtic had a stadium to build, Rangers have Ibrox (and Auchenhowie) to fix and improve. Both required massive investment to improve the team, although I would argue that Rangers have a steeper hill to climb in that area.
Unlike RFC of the 90s, Celtic’s accrued wealth has nothing to do with an intravenous hook-up between their bank account and the chairman’s pals at the bank. Their baseline advantage over the current Rangers predicament is a combination of a stadium which holds 10,000 more fans than Ibrox, no debt, a burgeoning cash balance and the current inflow of European cash.
The Euro cash and the cash balance could be depleted, but the 10,000 extra seats won’t.
It also seems difficult to imagine how TRFC can obtain seed capital – even if they were inclined to gamble – given the combination of barriers to achieving that;
- They have a PLC with no stock market listing
- They have NO executive directors on the PLC board
- The current chairman is a convicted criminal, convicted of offences involving money
- The current chairman and vice-chairman are both directors of a previously liquidated club, and therefore associated with the financial mismanagement which brought that about.
- In that climate, sponsorship deals are hard to come by. Major sponsors want to be associated with stability, success and integrity. TRFC don’t tick many boxes in that regard.
- Banks do not lend to football clubs. Pre Murray/Masterton, football clubs were cash businesses with modest overdraft facilities to cover modest cash-flow peaks and troughs. The banks have returned to that model. 1987-2007 was the exception, not the norm.
- They are at war with a powerful and substantial shareholder in Mike Ashley.
- There is still litigation pending on more than one front which could even call into question the ownership of the club’s assets.
- They are in debt already (estimated at around £15m).
- The current onfield situation may require yet another write-off in terms of contracts.
Any one of those bullet points could be enough to derail any plan to get to the top. In combination, there may even be an existential question to answer.
That is why the fans are starting to look a lot smarter than the board, and ultimately the good sense of the fans may well help the board to find a way out of their current dilemma.
But even with realistic expectations from the supporters, is it possible that they can find a way? Is there for instance someone with a magic wand or bag of cash who could come in and turn it around? Perhaps, but who would risk money on a precarious venture like a football club when one of the most powerful businessmen in the country is in dispute with you?
In order for serious inward investment to happen;
- Ashley has to be reconciled with the board (needs King and Murray to go).
- The debt has to be written off .
- The new investor(s) has to be given control of the club (and this would perhaps require another 75% special resolution where current shareholders would be asked to vote to dilute their own influence).
- If they achieved that (and it is a pretty big if) the new investor cash would go into the club’s bank account – not used to pay off the debt – and they would be free to pursue new and better sponsorship deals, improve the merchandising contract with an onside Ashley, and add new revenue streams.
Even then, any new board would need to see the infrastructure challenges as paramount. Having one eye squinting in the direction of Parkhead will blur the bigger picture.
Their priority should be to reduce the losses (whilst increasing wages for better players), fix the stadium and the training ground (both in need of repair and improvement), build a scouting and youth infrastructure, and free up a (relatively modest) wad of cash to improve the playing squad.
In defence of the current board, the challenges facing them are almost vertical in incline. No matter how skilful they are, nothing other than someone with a barrowload of cash and a very long term outlook can put any kind of fix in place.
£50m might buy the debt and equity, and repair the stadium, but progress requires on-field improvement. It also needs stability, and therefore Ashley’s cooperation. The price of that is the head of Dave King.
Rangers will bring in more at the gate than Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs, but they have a considerably higher cost base than those clubs. With better players, recurring costs will be even higher – much higher.
To square this circle, however unpalatable it appears to be, peace has to be made with Ashley. That is the key to being able to embark upon a journey that has any chance of success. Otherwise, the clocks will have to be reset to 2022, and the end of the SD contract, before progress can be made.
However there is no chance it can go on that long. Rangers fans may be increasingly less demanding in what they expect, but they will need to see some signs – and not just words – that a plan is in place.
The board are getting ready to throw Mark Warburton to the hounds (the MSM lapdogs have already been armed with poison pens to effect that). This will buy them some time, but not enough.
We’ve said it before, and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ll say it again;
For Rangers to have a fighting chance of competing at the top of football, King needs to be gone. If he does go, half of the barriers preventing the club raising cash are dismantled.
So is King’s departure a price worth paying? If he really had Rangers in his heart, he would say ‘Yes’.
VALENTINESCLOWNFEBRUARY 27, 2017 at 12:02
Is the truth or realization taking hold with the fans of Ibrox club?
https://t.co/PEKCqqaalQ
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Well it might be truth but it certainly isn`t realisation
Anybody who thinks £13m in loan without interest or security is an “investment”
And is happy to expect an even greater level of “investment” next season
Hasn`t a clue about finance
easyJamboFebruary 27, 2017 at 17:09
Allyjambo February 27, 2017 at 16:43 ==================== PM returned
________
And read and acknowledged, thank you.
Change of subject
it’s been obvious for some time that the greatest threat to Scottish Football is the financial recklessness that passes for Fair Play in England.
Aston Villa have just announced losses of £81M , Bournemouth had a wages to income ratio of 236% in their promotion season , Leicester lost £55M in their last 2 Championship seasons . Famous clubs like Nottingham Forrest are basket cases. There are Club Owners in England behaving like Riverboat gamblers in their desperation to access Premier League TV Revenue
Aberdeen are European Trophy winners, League Champions and Cup winners on a number of occasions. Aberdeen have also never been in administration .
Charlton have won a single top tier trophy in their history. The 1947 FA cup. They went into administration in 1984, which resulted in liquidation and a new company being formed. They spent 10 years between 1985 and 1995 without even a home ground. They had to rent space from biggest rivals Crystal Palace ( which would be like Hibs playing at Tynecastle)
Today Aberdeen are 2nd in the League and in the qtr final of the Cup. Charlton are 14th in League , were knocked out of the League Cup in the 1st Round by Cheltenham Town and the FA Cup in the 2nd Round by MK Dons. Charlton’s top scorer is Josh Magenniss ( ex Killie and Aberdeen ) with 8
Charlton have had 10 ( yes TEN ) managers since Derek Mcinness took over at Aberdeen in March 2013
So no debate over who is the more successful , more stable club.
Yet
The financial comparison is revealing . It highlights the reckless nature of English football and why Uefa and Fifa both need to act to bring accountability and responsibility , as the EFL is clearly failing / has no interest in controlling their clubs
Aberdeen
Turnover £13.4 M
operating profit / loss +£448,000
wage cost £6.817 M
wage ratio 50.87%
Balance sheet reserves £14.434 M
Charlton
Turnover £11.77M
operating profit / loss -£6.43 M
wage cost £11.48 M
wage ratio 97.57%
Balance sheet reserves -£31.18 M
To summarise Aberdeen are the bigger club , more succesful, with a strong balance sheet. Charlton are smaller, loss making, insolvent and unsuccesful. Aberdeen are owned by succesful local fans. Charlton are owned by a Belgian with no previous connection to the club.
Yet Charlton pay considerably higher wages, despite not having the revenue to cover those wages. Charlton are in the 3rd Tier of English football . They have virtually no propspect of promtion this season. They will almost certainly incur further losses of at least £12 M in the next 2 sets of financial reporting . The reward for promotion should they get it at some stage , is another circa £3M of TV money and the inevitability that you need to spend much more than that to avoid relegation straight back down to the 3rd tier.
The question is why does an owner of an English Football Club behave in a manner guaranteed to deliver huge financial losses with only a tiny % chance of ever getting a return . There isn’t a logical answer. It’s not only damaging their own club and leagues it damages neighbouring countries who can’t or refuse to behave in a similarly reckless manner.
The EFL and the FA are failing football. Charlton aren’t an extreme example. They are the norm in Tier 2 and 3 in England. Time for FIFA and UEFA to deal with this
BARCABHOY
FEBRUARY 27, 2017 at 20:46
it’s been obvious for some time that the greatest threat to Scottish Football is the financial recklessness that passes for Fair Play in England…
============================
These highly speculative gambles seem to be based on a presumption that gaining access to the riches of the EPL will be worth the risk – and that e.g. TV income will continue to rise.
[IMO, there must also be other, significant, dodgy reasons: criminal / tax evasion / money laundering / bungs etc.]
If/when the TV money starts to decline, then the EPL and other leagues could very well be b*ggered.
To state the bleedin’ obvious.
And just this last weekend there seemed to be an ominous portent of things to come in the EPL: a once highly popular US sport is struggling;
[various sources]
“When the green flag signals the start of the Daytona 500 this weekend, there’s a good chance there will be plenty of empty seats in the stands and in front of the TV. Attendance has been falling for so long at NASCAR events that the organization stopped reporting attendance figures in 2012.”
“The NASCAR in the USA has been a significant motorsport over decades, yet in the last 12 years attendances have almost halved.”
“According to Nielsen, NASCAR [TV] viewership has fallen 45% since 2005, from nearly 9 million viewers per race to 4.6 million last year.”
“NASCAR is in retreat. Crews have removed entire sections of the stands at Charlotte, and other tracks have followed suit. Daytona Speedway, which once had seats for 159,000, has cut its capacity to 101,000.”
==========================
Maybe youngsters in the future – who couldn’t afford to attend footy games, even if they wanted – would prefer to watch ‘drone flying races’ or some other techy ‘sport’, instead of good old fashioned contact sports…?
Barcabhoy February 27, 2017 at 20:46
====================
Aberdeen was only been able to sort out their finances in 2014 with a bit of help from Stewart Milne doing a DFE swap for £4.42M, Willie and Elaine Donald doing likewise with £3M, and Lloyds (BOS) writing off £6.5M.
Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hibs, Kilmarnock and Partick Thistle have all been able to restructure their finances off the back of write downs of debt, mainly by BoS. Like Hearts, Dunfermline, Motherwell and Dundee who went down the administration route, they all overstretched themselves financially over a decade or more, but most of them are in a better place now.
STEVIEBCFEBRUARY 27, 2017 at 21:24
‘drone flying races’
——————-
You could be on to something there. Dragons den thingy for you, get some investers in.
And start making up the rules just now. If your drone crashes and you replace most of the parts (triggers broom kind of thing) will it be the same drone
Just when I think I’ve seen it all…
Sans Le Truth supremo Craig Houston has taken time off his work (whatever it is) and time off his many and varied charitable, not for profit, No Sirree Billy, pursuits such as Court Reporter (“You Know Who Mur”); Picket (Outside Sports Direct dressed head to toe by, um, Sports Direct); Dignified Protester (Rat mask); Football Academy mastermind (Please buy these tops-Please don’t ask where the dough goes); Club 1872 Board Member (x 1/2/3/4-depending on which company you’re talking about); Author (How I Saved Rangers After They Died); continued on page 2012…
Mr Houston also finds time to post on Twitter (I think it’s when Chris Ze List Graham is having his dinner) and today he posts about a subject upon which he seems to have a high regard for himself but he has to date been shy about-football tactics. I had to check it wasn’t a parody account but it seems he’s serious. Weirdly although he has recently amended the name of the account back to Sons Of Struth from a temporary hilarious misspelling of Halloween he didn’t bother changing the photogaph which is Our Hero with Oor Warbs; a guy who was good enough to play for Celtic (a decade ago) and some other guy (might be Halliday but I’ve never seen him standing long enough to tell).
Some cynics might view this posting of knowledge of tactics as an underhand way of getting in the Director of Football; Manager; Coach frame but I think it’s a lot more subtle.
The appointee to one or more or all of these posts should be Mr Struth.
After all being dead hasn’t been an impediment to any sphere of operation so far.
EJ
i’m aware of the debt for equity swap at Aberdeen and the methods used to boost the balance sheet. The comparison with Charlton though remains valid . Aberdeen never ran up losses at Charlton’s level, never had a wage to revenue ratio at close to Charlton’s and never entered administration and then liquidated
Sportsound was another joy to behold last night. Ian McCall joined the ever growing list of Rangers minded pundits and once again there was a full house on that score last night, including the presenter. Most of the show was unsurprisingly devoted to their beloved Rangers with prospective Director of Football Ross Wilson suddenly the hot topic of debate. Whether or not Wilson ends up at Ibrox remains to be seen, but if it’s adulation and instant status as a cut above the rest in Scottish football he is after then he should waste no time in getting there. On the news prior to the programme Richard Wilson informed everyone how much in demand Ross Wilson is in England therefore it will be ‘quite a coup’ for Rangers should they get him. I guess all we need to do now is clarify what being ‘in demand’ in the most cash rich league bar China means to Richard Wilson. In my view it means you most certainly wouldn’t be thinking of Ibrox as your next destination.
Following on from the Rangers discussion which took well over half the show, Iain Cathro got his ritual kicking followed by Mark McGhee. They then managed to squeeze a couple of minutes of Brendan Rodgers in at the end, but only because he was speaking of the recently announced illness of Billy McNeill.
We really do deserve better for our licence fee.
UPTHEHOOPSFEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 07:10
“We really do deserve better for our licence fee.”
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Tell them to sod off then UTH.! I don’t have a license and never will have, for the same reason I don’t buy a paper, which is a service I do not want, and have not requested. I am perfectly capable of washing my own brain, and have no need to pay someone to do it for me. There is plenty of advice out there on how to go about thwarting this extortion charge.
Would you keep paying the paper-boy, who continually popped his wares through your letter-box, despite the fact you had cancelled the order?
The BBC is a nasty institution and not beyond stretching to illegal means, threats, harassment, trickery, and intimidation, to extort your cash……Not the actions of a truthful or trustworthy body.
Anyone who has a problem with Sportsound’s deterioration as a programme can complain here…..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/
UTH/CO – re the BBC Radio Football coverage
I stopped listening since last year during a Rangers Scottish Cup game Rob McLean kept referring to Rangers striving to achieve their 34th Cup win not once but several times – the BBC is now indestinguishable from Radio Clyde in its content & skew regarding “Rangers” matters . Agree with UTH , as licence payers we should expect & receive better but how to change this culture ?
I note Bill1903’s link to complain to the BBC but will that help – I suppose “if you don’t ask , you don’t get” applies but it is a depressing culture that pervades the BBC Scotland football landscape at present .
Re – JJ/Dundee United
I notice there is no mention/apology/retraction from JJ further to his anouncement of DUFC entering administration – as Neepheid stated yesterday , rumours on a business’ financial situ can have serious repurcussions . Pretty shoddy story which perhaps indicates his/her desperation to break “a story” whether true or not .
Motherwell sack McGhee
STEVIEBC
If/when the TV money starts to decline, then the EPL and other leagues could very well be b*ggered.To state the bleedin’ obvious.
I am not long back from a trip to the USA. While i was there i talked to a “behind the camera man” who worked with one of the big sport channels. I mentioned to him just what you pointed out Stevie, his reply was, no chance whatsoever of that happening. He asked me if i had heard of Apple TV, Google TV, Amazon TV? He then went on to paint a scene at the next TV rights issue when all of the above and a lot more will be in the bidding for the champions league rights, EPL rights, Spanish League etc. The sole reason behind this “escalation” as he put it, was the opening of the Chinese TV Market. He told me it was to be a massive opportunity, That “the market was huge” He gave me a big figure of TV subscribers which he said would be willing to pay to watch “soccer”. As they say watch this space.
Naegreetin
The whispering campaign against Dundee United is a bit of local politics and fan angst. One ‘phone call sorted it out. That’s one of the reasons we complain about the press.
United’s finances are not good, being where they are, but nowhere near admin.
UPTHEHOOPSFEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 07:10
Sportsound was another joy to behold last night.
==================================
Great post! They seem not to even care that the show often resembles a Sevco fans’ podcast. Endless earnest discussion about the latest manoeuvrings as if they were talking about a military campaign, and ALL based on the assumption that the latest Ibrox outfit is the same entity, with the same “success”, status and expectation of dominance as its pre-2012 predecessor. You will never hear a conversation about Sevco on any radio or TV programme which is thoroughly grounded in the reality of that basket case’s true position. A large part of the audience doesn’t want to hear such blasphemous talk and the pundits certainly doesn’t want to be the ones to utter it. Meanwhile the rest of us are left hanging.
Still, it entertains in a “cringe-making” sort of a way!
I had a bit of fun imagining the implications for Sportsound and Kenny Macintrye if Barry Ferguson ever got the Sevco manager’s job. If anyone wants to look it it is here. https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2017/02/26/barry-ferguson-sevco-manager/
Keep up the good work!
TC
J.J. February 28, 2017 at 10:08 am
By the time I’m finished with Regan he will have no need of a hat as I’ll be giving him his head in his hands. The gloves are coming off for March. Expect ruthless excoriation that would bring a tear of joy to a paint-strippers eye. I suggest they erect the plastic sheeting at Hampden now before it’s too late.
The sore sides of March are about to kick off, .. ooffftttt !
BarcabhoyFebruary 27, 2017 at 20:46 This is why MPs at Westminster have investigated and debated on the FA and have no confidence in their ability to govern and do what is necessary to bring financial sense to English football.
Football is outlaw territory and until such times as Governments pass laws to end the Badlands, football will continue on a downward spiral.
For all that Scottish clubs are trying to balance their books, domestic FFP has still not been introduced and I look forward to the licence level the SFA grant to TRFC with an explanation for it at the end of March.
The Tax Justice Network have set out a very persuasive case for SFA reform that main stream media simply ignored in the hope that it will all go away.
If the Supreme Court rules in favour of HMRC soon, that dam of silence will be broken as issues avoided in 2011/12 will have to be faced.
PortbhoyFebruary 28, 2017 at 11:06 I wonder if JJ knows what Celtic now know?
Regan has misled not only Celtic but the footballing public via a media only too ready not to question and dig.
A sensible industry would be preparing for a dam of truth bursting, but as oil is to the oil industry so is stupidity to football.
On the matter of the BBC their serious journos too have a fair inkling of the truth but so far are unwilling to publish, perhaps like Celtic waiting for the justice system to run its course.
When the truth dam breaks I reckon some journalists will not survive the flood.
AULDHEIDFEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 12:11
Well worth a reference if only for production values never mind content.
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=30272774&t=8054574
—————————————————————————————————————————–
I don’t think they can get a bank statement Auldheid.
Portbhoy
February 28, 2017 at 11:06
“The sore sides of March are about to kick off”
——————————————————————–
Tomorrow is the first day of March, and as has been mentioned on here, a number of fights are about to break out.
Which is apt, given that March is named after Mars,the Roman god of war/warfare.
I have lost count of the impending battles, perhaps someone could compile a list?
Or collectively we all could?
WOODSTEIN
FEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 12:35
” I have lost count of the impending battles, perhaps someone could compile a list?”
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/single/?p=30266730&t=11018759
The “truth dam” might or might break in the next few weeks.
I personally don’t ever see Regan or Doncaster being taken to task because they were working in conjunction with their “Committees” and nothing was ever off piste, although I’d really love to be wrong.
In my view the club chairmen and their well remunerated administrators were party to the eventually compromised 5 way agreement and have since moved on.
They are all complicit to varying degrees.
Complicit but justified by an underlying commercial unification based on having some kind of “Rangers’, their Blu Pounds and an Old Firm for the TV money.
Nobody will break ranks.
Corrupt official
February 28, 2017 at 12:40
Thanks
Getting old, but here:-
http://www.sfmonitor.org/peace-not-war/?cid=152328
It says “Rangers v Sports Direct court case adjourned until March 2017”
The fixture list from Kerrydale Steet says 13th July 2017
Finloch @ 12.45
Id expand that theory slightly. Whilst I believe Regan/Doncaster and their committees had permission from all of the clubs to do what they did (else, I agree, someone would have broken rank by now) I’m not convinced every club agreed to the specific manner in which it was done nor to the result whereby OC/NC rages on.
If you take the 5 way agreement as an example we are now aware of the apparent existence of a side letter indemnifying Sevco from further action (or I forget, it may have been the SFA from further action, the point being that I’m pretty sure you’ll find that actually each party has indemnified the other apart from to the full extent of LNS). It was then just a simple case of pre-agreeing the outcome of LNS behind closed doors.
So all of the clubs sanctioned the formation of LNS and all of the clubs agreed that Sevco could pretend to be Rangers (see OC/NC comment) above subject to the findings of LNS. I would be very surprised however if the reformatting of the terms of LNS, the issuing of hugely ironic side letters to the findings of LNS and indeed the fact that LNS would go on to find that a list of charges just below match fixing in over 40 cases (players involved) and over hundreds of games (players * matches) would result in a fine that came to the equivalent of Flo’s toenail clippings ever made it to the desks of 41 club chairmen.
You had a very experienced liquidation operator in Green supposedly signing up to all football debts of the old club in order for him to claim that his new club was indeed the old club (or that his new club had taken over operating the old Club if you prefer Mr Mackenzie’s version). Unless these were quantified, capped and Green could see justification for that quantum – not in terms of whether it was deserved as he frankly didn’t care but rather, if he accepted the capped £200,000 charge on sevco’s behalf could he glean greater benefit than that from his creation which with the odd cup of tea and a few rich teas he clearly could – then why else would he sign up to them. No liquidation operator ever signs a blank cheque with regards to historic debt. Ever. Was Regan going to withhold his licence having got his little ploy this far? No chance.
FinlochFebruary 28, 2017 at 12:45
As a shareholder in Celtic, I and many other shareholders, will require an explanation once the truth emerges, as to why Celtic are not seeking Regan’s head on a plate. If court cases are done by mid summer the truth from them will require a response at next Celtic AGM in November.
From correspondence and public utterances Regan has either:
misrepresented the SFA position on the 2011 UEFA licence in public and to Celtic since 2011
OR
has not understood what was required of SFA by UEFA FFP
or
there is a big lacuna in UEFA rules.
To clear himself of the original charge of porky pies, he needs to demonstrate his incompetence or highlight the lacuna to UEFA.
If no one breaks ranks once the truth dam is open, then that does more than call the integrity of the football industry as a sport into question, it asks how much supporters are prepared to accept to remain loyal to their clubs operating in a dishonest and untrustworthy set up.
SmugasFebruary 28, 2017 at 13:42
Finloch @ 12.45
Id expand that theory slightly. Whilst I believe Regan/Doncaster and their committees had permission from all of the clubs to do what they did (else, I agree, someone would have broken rank by now) I’m not convinced every club agreed to the specific manner in which it was done nor to the result whereby OC/NC rages on.
=================
I think this is nearer to what took place. I know for a fact that The Don’s SPL Board member could not understand how LNS came to his Decision and Celtic too were surprised.
Of course no clubs wanted to lose the income generated by those who supported Rangers, but I think some took their eye off the ball of the price of doing so and missed the devil in the detail.
Auldheid,
I hope that your confidence is well founded but like Finloch/Smugas I too worry as to whether there will be anyone of sufficient stature/authority willing to break ranks and to bring the rotten edifice crashing down. The SFA is the Clubs and the Clubs are the SFA. In the absence of someone, anyone with the moral fortitude of Turnbull Hutton I am certain there will be concerted efforts to look the other way and pretend that nothing of significance has happened.
All along this mess has been crying out for something like a Panorama or Dispatches programme that lays out the double dealing of the SFA. But with so much information already in the public domain there does not seem to have been any interest to date. I hope that I am wrong but the issues regarding the UEFA licence, 5WA, LNS are complex. The attention span of large sections of the populace appears to extend no further than “make America great again” and “take back control” for example. I suspect that most football fans are only bothered about one thing – that their own team continues to trot onto the field each weekend.
However, I am an optimist at heart and do believe that one day a more truthful narrative regarding events will make it into the mainstream. Don’t know how, why or when it will happen. It will probably be a small, unexpected event that will end up triggering the avalanche. In the meantime:
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
More power to your elbow.
WATCHER
FEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 10:40
STEVIEBC
If/when the TV money starts to decline, then the EPL and other leagues could very well be b*ggered. To state the bleedin’ obvious…
=======================
I am not long back from a trip to the USA.
…
the opening of the Chinese TV Market. He told me it was to be a massive opportunity, That “the market was huge” He gave me a big figure of TV subscribers which he said would be willing to pay to watch “soccer”. As they say watch this space.
=======================
Good info Watcher: agreed, EPL TV viewing / revenue could still have some way to go before it peaks.
But to gamble on your club’s future, based on an expectation / assumption that third parties will continue to pay ever increasing amounts for TV, [& streaming], rights seems rather risky in the long-term.
The EPL seems like a financial bubble which is destined to burst at some point, IMHO.
First of all I’m delighted to hear that DunUtd are not in trouble to the extent misreported and I genuinely hope they sort out their fitba and challenge in the SPL again, I like the Arab games! However, I am intrigued to see what happens the next time a Scottish team goes into admin. A precedence has been set: admin, nominate your administrators, liquidate, sell assets to someone and then enter the lowest division. Job done. TBH it would have been a lot easier if the Dons had done this 12-15 years ago or so rather than the long slog of cutting costs, living within their means, proving their sustainability to the financial sector, debt to equity deals and a very long negotiated write down of the remaining debt with the bank. (On the latter the bank were on for this given that they had made their money out of it and wanted it cleared but nevertheless it was a bloody long slog.)
To be fair there wasn’t a precedence for the above mentioned alternative back then. There is now.
Right back at you auldheid.
Two comments.
Id need to check back but I thought Duncan Fraser (AFC) and Peter Lawell (CFC) were both on the SPL board and also the SFA liaison board (I forget the exact title) at summer 2012. For them to be surprised as you describe suggests that rather than some club led conspiracy (with large clubs steering the bus and small clubs being told to just shut up and push else the dastardly armagaddonobile would catch them) that this is Doncaster and Regan flying entirely solo, no doubt taking Ogilvie’s lead and assuring everyone, clubs big and small, that everything would be ok if they stayed on plan.
Re your second comment certainly there were several statements that revealed the Aberdeen position at the time. It was simply to call the blue pound’s bluff in so far as they seemingly only had two choices – buy in to what they were offered or ship out. Thus Aberdeen were happy to technically, unavoidably in fact, treat them as a new club but were ‘happy’ to pretend it was the old one if that kept the punters (theirs and ours!) coming is a pretty good summary. If you engage in private correspondence with them they tell you that nothing has changed in that regard!
Which begs the question: if DunUtd (for example) are struggling financially why don’t they just do a Sevco?
Pride and doing the right thing I suspect.
Ernie @ 15.27
The DunUtd scenario (other teams on the breadline are available
) would be interesting in so far as having already dropped a league and looking like not being promoted straight back up and given the savings that could be made by further ‘deadwood’ removal via liquidation that a Div4 restart would allow could well be more attractive than say a similar hearts or sevco situation from the top league. Why agree a p in the £ CVA when you can save said p’s and invest them to try and climb back up. If it was enough to fund you through divisions 4 and 3 then at the very least you’d be back where you started leaner and fitter one would think.
Regarding the Aberdeen situation that you describe whilst there is of course the proud record of no relegation nor administration in our history there is the slightly more pressing commercial matter of a £30m shortfall on a much needed stadium and training complex.
Ernie – re Aberdeen’s/Other Club’s Debt
You could argue some clubs are still feeling the effects of trying to compete with (S)DM’s financial modus operandi (i.e. cheating) I am thinking of Aberdeen,Hearts/Hibs,Dundee teams – Dundee was a classic example with the Marrs spending (on players like Cannigia & Ravanelli) trying to match Rangers & going into to Admin & restructuring eventually . The financial ripples from SDM’s tenure are still being felt & I hope the Supreme Court decision (if favourable) will result in a full examination of Scottish Football as alluded to above by Auldheid – cue a JC rant re cheating in Scottish Football !
Smugas, I totally agree, I’m no happy clapper when it comes to the owners of my team. Their complicity in the whole 5WA and the 11-1 capitulation/stitch up (as it must surely have been) is unforgivable for example. The new stadium may well prove to be a bit of a millstone although Stewarty seems adamant that he can make the numbers work. The point is that it would have been a lot easier if we had done a sevco, my suggestion that a precedence has been set was tongue in cheek. It was a one off, imagine that. However, I look forward to the knots they (SFA/SPFL) will tie themselves in explaining the difference.
Your piece on Aberdeen/Charlton was excellent. The whole EPL and Championship bandwagon is on a shoogly peg, morally more so than financially, imo but who would turn it down? The current Parliamentary poke into the FA and the clubs/businesses they run is all well and good but the fact is that these clubs/businesses are entitled to speculate way beyond the norm (for non fitba businesses) as long as someone is prepared to lend or gift them the dosh. What p*sses me off is that the majority of Scottish clubs have had to scrimp and save to keep the business going way beyond that level that would be accepted in the business world: and that only because they are fitba teams. If the Dons accounts and forecast of 10-15 years ago was a pub, for example, it would have shut down, a proper liquidation. The question for the SFA/SPFL is why bother when one can do a sevco?
Ernie,
Precisely the flaw that I refer to with their club/Club stitch up. If we all live happily ever after and pretend it didn’t happen as the numerous fans of one club would wish us to then the fantasy works for sure. There would then remain the minor technicality, as pointed out by my ten year old who to be clear is not on the same salary as Doncaster but clearly should be, that apparently when we are all living happily ever after that they have, HAVE to be happy winning therefore, by default, we have to be accepting of defeat, but being happy with it.
Seems perfectly straightforward to me!
Seriously though, I am aware that a club like DUtd “doing a sevco” is more complicated than it sounds for one simple reason – the fixed assets (read ground). I suspect therefore that the more immediate impact of the club/Club fantasy creation will be in situations like AFC’s stadia funding conundrum. Why would investors (outwith fans) invest if they can be dumped and the Club glibly transferred onto a new operating platform debt free? And OC/NC aside why wouldn’t the club, bollox, Club go down precisely that route?
Meant to say The AFC Charlton comparison was Barca’s btw. And blumin good it was too.
TincksFebruary 28, 2017 at 15:11
Auldheid,
I hope that your confidence is well founded but like Finloch/Smugas I too worry as to whether there will be anyone of sufficient stature/authority willing to break ranks and to bring the rotten edifice crashing down.
========================
My view based on Res12 is that no one in football will break ranks unless they see it in their interest to do so.
That means supporters delaying ST purchases until after the SC rule and the SPFL/SFA stating their position should HMRC win their case.
Timing will be crucial but if SC sit mid March and publish decision mid April it will be game on.
There is no need for supporters of any club to purchase STs until end of May, its not as if there will not be enough seats to sell is there?
Nor will have clubs have the same outlay in the summer months, so they are not likely to go bust whilst matters addressed.
No need to boycott, just make early purchase conditional on hearing the SPFL clubs’ stance should HMRC win.
Time the rubber hit the road.
Yes, of course, my apologies, I went off in yet another mind wander. It was Barcabhoy who penned the excellent and thought provoking Aberdeen/Charlton post.
SmugasFebruary 28, 2017 at 15:27
Right back at you auldheid.
Id need to check back but I thought Duncan Fraser (AFC) and Peter Lawell (CFC) were both on the SPL board and also the SFA liaison board (I forget the exact title) at summer 2012.
===============
The Aberdeen member of the then SPL Board was indeed Duncan Fraser. He was more than surprised, he was totally bemused by the Decision, but on the legal advice provided (only itself made possible by the concealment of the true nature of the illegal DOS ebts by Duff and Phelps, which let LNS erroneously treat them as continuous and legal) he and the rest of the SPL Board bowed to that advice.
The Celtic representative was Eric Reilly, who whilst surprised would have had to bow to the majority who accepted the same legal advice.
Both were notified of the DOS EBT concealment and consequences along with the other SPL Board members by SFM in 2014 via Harper McLeod, but regular SFM posters will remember the SPFL passed correspondence to SFA who did what it says on their tin i.e. SFA, possibly because, if the TJN are correct, the SFA were already aware of the illegal nature of DOS ebts in 2011 from HMRC correspondence they have not denied having in their possession after a comment in a reply to Res12 lawyers that suggested they did have it and not responding to TJN request to clarify before TJN published.
(Peter Lawwell was on the Professional Games Board (since left) , but not sure about Duncan Fraser.)
THECLUMPANYFEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 10:58
Thank you. Praise from such an esteemed blogger as yourself is much appreciated.
BILL1903FEBRUARY 28, 2017 at 09:36
Anyone who has a problem with Sportsound’s deterioration as a programme can complain here…..http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/
===================================
I used to complain Bill. Here is one pearler of an answer on the lack of balance among their pundits
“…On the matter of pundits, we recruit and use people whom we believe offer the best insight and analysis. These are not current affairs or political programmes and there is no requirement to balance out pundits whose playing careers have included spells with particular clubs. We do not, and would not, employ people who are simply cheerleaders for one or other club.”
UPTHEHOOPS
nearly spat my coffee out lol
WOODSTEINFEBRUARY 25, 2017 at 14:52″Definition : Club (inter alia)An association dedicated to a particular interest or activity
An organization constituted to play matches in a particular sport An association (unincorporated entity/club.) has no legal status. A corporation (incorporated entity/club) has a legal status
Incorporation is simply a change in legal status.”
____________________
Woodstein, apologies for the delay in replying to this one, or perhaps for continuing our little back and forth at all 🙂 …
You create problems for yourself in stating “Incorporation is simply a change in legal status”.
*What* changes it’s legal status?
1. The unincorporated body? Nope. It passes a resolution to transfer its assets and undertaking to the new company, becomes obsolete, then dissolves.
2. The newly-formed company? Nope. “Not existing” does not count as an antecedent legal status! By definition, the legal entity formed at incorporation does not pre-date that event. Sorry, Sevco fans, your history begins at May 2012 🙂
3. The football club. Of course, but if “the football club” fits the “changing legal status” description it cannot be synonymous with either of the two above, as shown.
So what is it?
A group of people/resources organised to compete in association football.
Well, that’s the only definition that works for your position. An entity that can span, as you suggest, multiple constituted bodies. You made your bed… 😉
SFA / SPFL will not break ranks because as Benjamin Franklin said,
“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
But it would be nice if the day ever came when it was everyman for himself, self preservation can be a powerful incentive to come clean.
The same man also said that there was nothing certain in life except death and taxes.
I think he was a man before his time, taxes caused the death of Rangers.
Liquidation is death, there can be no re-incarnation.
Sevco will go the same way.
It is an unaffordable hobby and will drain the last drop of blood from those who seek to prop it up.
Amidst all the serious stuff The Clumpany does good work at light-heartedly pricking various bubbles of pomposity. This gave me a good
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2017/02/28/definitions-of-success/
Hoopy 7February 28, 2017 at 20:32
‘….But it would be nice if the day ever came when it was everyman for himself, self preservation can be a powerful incentive to come clean.’
___________
Some of us had thought that that day might have come when criminal charges were laid against certain folk. We had anticipated anguished squeals of ‘it wisnae me, it was him’, as folk tried to escape blame.
Sadly those hopes were dashed by what…incompetence in certain quarters? Something else?
upthehoopsFebruary 28, 2017 at 18:35
‘….We do not, and would not, employ people who are simply cheerleaders for one or other club.”
_____
That’s an absolute cracker! there are at least 4 now, and severl others over the years.
Feck me i thought Roger Hannah was a real journalist it appears he is nothing more than a liquidation denier and continuity myth spreader.
Roger Hannah Radio Clyde
“If they lose to St Johnstone tomorrow night I believe it is first time Rangers have lost 3 consecutive league games in 31 years”.
When have Sevco been in existence for 31 years, when did they exit Administration?
Guys Thursday 2nd March will be the Birthday of Big Billy if anyone is reading a wee tribute on Thursday on SFM would be most fitting.
EastwoodFebruary 28, 2017 at 20:05
Sent A PM
I responded to Woodstein by PM but, as some were no doubt interested in the “incorporation: transformation or transfer” type discussion, I’ll share a couple of points…
The Prospectus of the pre-Sevco, original 1899 TRFC Ltd stated:
“This Company has been formed for the purpose of acquiring the assets and goodwill of the Rangers Football Club; and of working the same….The Company will take over the assets, liabilities and engagements of the club as at 1st June, 1899.”
It seems to be that this is clearly describing a transaction between two entities. Why would the new company “take over”, or “acquire” things from – as Woodstein is arguing – itself, as it’s the same entity merely changing it’s status? It makes no sense. You can only acquire something from… somebody or something, separate from yourself!
Another one: a notice published when Celtic incorporated in 1897:
“Celtic Football and Athletic Company (Limited), established with a capital of £5000, divided into £1 shares, to take over and acquire for the purpose of carrying on a football and athletic company the property and assets of the Celtic Football and Athletic Club.”
Once again, “take over and acquire” necessarily entails two separate entities for such a transaction to take place between, and the two entities are even stated.
Unless you wish to go down the route of the *Club = A group of people/resources [ie. assets] organised to compete in association football* definition, you simply have no foundation to ascribe continuity to the football club through that process.
Deviously both the SPL (around 10 years ago coinciding with Rangers (In Liquidation) entering very choppy waters) and the SFA more recently, changed their rules to adopt this distinct “Club” (capital ‘C’) type definition, distinguishing it from the “owner and operator” company. It could have been said at the time to be a licence for unscrupulous, badly run “Clubs” to dump debts and shaft creditors, and so it proved with Sevco’s exploitation of these rules.
I know JJ isn’t popular on the site, but I think this is well worth a read.
https://johnjamessite.com/
Nice of Gary Ralston at the DR to help Mr Warburton gather evidence for any future unfair dismissal case!!
* Well worth a read, … bar the two last sentences
In respect of the Dundee United issue I do not think they could now simply apply as a new member.
At the time SEVCO applied for membership there was no promotion/relegation system in place from League 2 to the lower leagues. Somewhere in my memory is a thought that those at Hampden used this last year ability to let SEVCO apply and get into League 2 before promotion/relegation was introduced as leverage to get support from the clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 specifically – the rules might have even been changed so that promotion/relegation was delayed for a year? It was something like that with the added “bonus” of hoping for increased match revenues exceeding the costs of additional policing and related damage repair costs as a result of SEVCO supporters presence in their ground!
That said if a new club/Club is allowed to apply for membership out of the ether, without 3 years accounts, without any financial plan, or even history (not forgetting 276 stiffed creditors left behind), then if my club, with a long history in Scottish Football, found itself needing to “re-apply” then at the very least I would insist on being included in play-offs with the Highland and Lowland League winners, plus bottom of League 2 joining my team in a semi-final and then final. I suspect, it my team were DUFC and the players had not all left by that time (obviously a risk but…), they would win the play-offs in a canter so worth thinking about for any team that finishes in any other position than bottom of League 2. What was good for SEVCO must be good enough for the other 41 clubs/Clubs and at least my club/Club could argue they did play-off for the right to be in League 2 rather than be given it under a dodgy agreement! Whether you could place a bet on DUFC relegation is an argument for another court!
Those at Hampden saw a chance to get SEVCO into the league structure but their short term aims to accommodate SEVCO have set various precedents and [5-way] agreements whereby the rules could be changed to suit SEVCO, so why can the rules not be changed for all of the other 41 clubs – I still laugh at that number being the same as the number of the DCK’s convictions for being a mendacious witness and a glib and shameless liar whose evidence should not be believed unless it is in writing!!!! How true that judgment is even today.
Methilhill Stroller,
Again, to pick up on a discussion thread yesterday I think that’s the crux. In fairness to “Rangers” fans the SFL clubs were given the chance if they wished to vote them out of the league structure altogether. I recall resolution 1 of the SFL vote was whether they be given access at all. But as you correctly point out at that time there wasn’t a mechanism to then get them back in thus the SFL clubs would no doubt have considered the possibility that they might not ‘catch their wave’ on the way back up and voted on resolution 1 accordingly. You also have to remember the deep distrust that existed between lower div1,2 and 3 sides with the upper division 1 sides when an SPL2 was being mooted again inferring they would miss their “blue pound wave.”
But they voted on Resolution 1 on the basis of Sevco (note, not Rangers) adhering to the conditions of the 5WA. “You’re getting in but you’ll do it on our terms” kind of thing. Where the clubs’ “terms” stopped and Regan/Doncaster’s “solution” started was the point of conjecture.
Some weight, possibly towards the Dundee United administration story.
Tyrone Smith @TyroneSTV 2h2 hours ago Dundee United have announced total losses of £1.55 million in their latest financial accounts
Smugas,
The much-missed Paul McConville and his website, still such a great resource, provided the wording of the resolutions as below (note the results were 29-1 in favour of the first, 25-5 against the second).
Did we ever find out who the one and five were respectively?
(i) That the Scottish Football League Members agree to admit Sevco Scotland Limited as an Associate Member and agrees to permit Rangers F.C. to play in the League during Season 2012/13.
(ii) That the Scottish Football League Members direct the Board of Management of The Scottish Football League (the “Board”) to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13 unless the Board shall have to its satisfaction negotiated and reached agreement with The Scottish Premier League and The Scottish Football Association on a series of measures which the Board shall consider to be in the best interests of the game, how it is structured, how it is governed and how it is financed, whereupon the Board shall be authorised to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the First Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13.
ps. Note Longmuir subsequently announced that “The Rangers Football Club” had been accepted as an associate member, contradicting the wording of the actual proposals. The spin had begun…
EASTWOOD
MARCH 1, 2017 at 08:36
Deviously both the SPL (around 10 years ago coinciding with Rangers (In Liquidation) entering very choppy waters) and the SFA more recently, changed their rules to adopt this distinct “Club” (capital ‘C’) type definition, distinguishing it from the “owner and operator” company. It could have been said at the time to be a licence for unscrupulous, badly run “Clubs” to dump debts and shaft creditors, and so it proved with Sevco’s exploitation of these rules.
——————————————————————————-
http://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootballleagueasat19january2016_1461332495.pdf
(I hope that’s the current version!)
The SPFL Handbook Section E dealing with Club Financial Arrangements (including ‘Insolvency’) uses various terms including ‘Club’, ‘owner & operator’ & ‘Group Undertaking’.
The whole section is one huge ‘Ahhhh, but…’ – the words ‘at the discretion of’ are bandied about with abandon.
Further Update re DUFC Finances
Results out to-day for Year Ending 30 June 2016
Revenue – £4.61m (down 21%)
Operating Loss £2.53m net £1.55m (after sale of 3 players)
Debt £1.2m (was as high as £7.3m in 2007)
Relegation + 2 Managers sackings , Attendance down 8%
All in all not a happy picture (but not Admin !)
WOTTPI
MARCH 1, 2017 at 09:14
Nice of Gary Ralston at the DR to help Mr Warburton gather evidence for any future unfair dismissal case!!
The 46-year-old ( Pedro Caixinha) is currently head coach with mega rich Qatari club Al-Gharafa on a bumper tax free pay packet – believed to be around £2m a year – but Rangers will hope the lure of a possible pathway into the English Premier Leaguecould be enough to tempt him to Britain for a fraction of that sum.
==================================================
1) Mibbees I’m just ignorant, but I have never heard of this guy Caixinha.
2) The DR claiming he would be interested in leaving his ‘£2m a year, tax free’ job, to join TRFC ?!
3) TRFC would “have to pay £600K compensation if they want him now”?!
4) He is a bullfighter !
[Might be useful when dealing with King’s BS.]
And the DR does have a sense of humour, with the sub-heading;
“LOAD OF BULL”
[The DR now giving clues to its readers about the veracity of the paper’s content ?]
Would like to hear any comments
Anyone have similar experiences. I have a friend who was brought up on Rangers, whole family generations never knew any other life.
He contributed as a loyal supporter and customer bought anything that was branded Rangers. He cannot get his head round what has happened, he scours the media daily and believes and hopes. Recently he took after years of criticising to social media and he began to suspect the alternative media was right.
Crux of the story he stated to me if only one of those Celtic bloggers would lay it all out and explain to me and others what is going on at our club. Unbelievable, they are been fed piss daily and it is only a minority who recognise it now. It is sad for the genuine football guys the rest who gives a feck, they will reap what they have sown.
Eastwood
You have PM
I work with a guy from Portugal
You pronounce Caixina Ki-sheen-ya.
The name means “Little box” apparently
HS
bigboab1916March 1, 2017 at 15:26 Anyone have similar experiences. I have a friend who was brought up on Rangers, whole family generations never knew any other life. He contributed as a loyal supporter and customer bought anything that was branded Rangers. He cannot get his head round what has happened, he scours the media daily and believes and hopes. Recently he took after years of criticising to social media and he began to suspect the alternative media was right. Crux of the story he stated to me if only one of those Celtic bloggers would lay it all out and explain to me and others what is going on at our club.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Celtic bloggers are universally condemned on Rangers facing media as “haters”, “obsessed” and a lot of other names I couldn’t possibly repeat on this forum.
The facts regarding the state of their club are easily accessible, but the vast majority simply don’t want to know. They prefer the comfort food of the SMSM output, which reinforces all the myths they desperately want to hear repeated ad infinitum. That’s what they want, that’s what they get.
It’s just human nature, after all. We all want reassurance that our most fundamental beliefs are correct, and choose our sources of information accordingly.
A truly open mind is a rare commodity indeed. So congratulations to your friend, who is prepared to consider an alternative view.
I don’t know where he could find a concise and accurate summary of the current state of his club. Until someone writes a book covering the last 5 years, I think he’ll just have to do as we all do- trawl through whatever sources we trust.
With HMRC due to appear in the SC on 15 and 16 March concerning the EBT’s used (paid) at Ibrox I thought a wee refresher of some of the details and recipients would do no harm, thanks to Mark Daly and the BBC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOuboxnJtyQ
Has an exhaustive list of EBT recipients ever been published ? I am under the impression that some names may have been omitted, but may be mistaken .
PADDY MALARKEYMARCH 1, 2017 at 18:17
————–
Was just about to ask the same. if my memory is correct some had not yet been identified. I was about to ask if the SC case would shed some light on the one’s not yet identified
PADDY MALARKEYMARCH 1, 2017 at 18:17 from what i could find……….From 2001-10, Rangers put £47million in to up to 87 sub-trusts for players, coaches and staff. Contributions were also made by Rangers’ parent company Murray International Holdings.
In all 63 players, 24 staff and a further 24 Murray Group employees benefitted.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-ebts-players-what-secret-1736859
from the list i count 55 players
CLUSTER ONEMARCH 1, 2017 at 18:37
PADDY MALARKEYMARCH 1, 2017 at 18:17 from what i could find……….From 2001-10, Rangers put £47million in to up to 87 sub-trusts for players, coaches and staff. Contributions were also made by Rangers’ parent company Murray International Holdings.In all 63 players, 24 staff and a further 24 Murray Group employees benefitted.http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-ebts-players-what-secret-1736859
from the list i count 55 players
_______________
At last, the answer to what they meant by ‘going for 55’! In this case they might consider going for 55 is better than reaching 63
I’m sure the Cardigan was one of the originally undisclosed names but eventually admitted to a small one possibly related to his time at Everton? Certainly it never made sense that neither he nor McCoist would have missed out on the birthday cake.
I believe that a French/Croatian who played between 2004 & 2007 is not on ze list, even though he should be.
(I think I posted two names that are missing a while back, but I can’t find the post…)
Cluster OneMarch 1, 2017 at 18:37
_________________________________________
And the winner is…?