A Guest Blog for TSFM by beatipacificiscotia
As a child I read a poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant”, and stumbled upon it again recently. It is a simple tale of how six blind men encounter an Elephant and attempt to describe the animal:
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a WALL!”
You get the idea. The other blind men did little better. The second grabbed the tusk and thought the elephant like a spear. Others thought the elephant like a snake (the trunk), a tree (the leg), a fan (the ear), and finally a rope (the tail). What does this have to do with this blog? Let me explain.
There is a danger of all of us, whether consciously or unconsciously, making the same mistake as these blind gentleman. It is too easy to use the parts of the argument that fit our values and belief system, at the expense of the whole truth. The 13th century Jaina scholar, Mallisena, described a much earlier version of the same tale as a parable to argue that people deny various aspects of truth; deluded by the aspects they do understand, they deny the aspects they don’t understand. He said:
“Due to extreme delusion produced on account of a partial viewpoint, the immature deny one aspect and try to establish another. This is the maxim of the blind (men) and the elephant.”
I am incapable of putting it any better than that, though I would go further. I argue that people are deluded by the aspects that they choose to understand, and deny the aspects that they refuse to understand. Which leads me to my tale …..
I have recently read a news report about a decision taken by the Advertising Standards Authority on advertising activities of The Rangers Football Club Ltd and their claims to history and honours. It includes the following quote referring to advice from the SFA:
“We also consulted with the SFA, which confirmed that its definition of a football ‘club’ varied depending on context, and could sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner.”
I was most unhappy to read this part of the statement. I am yet to see the definition or statement of when you could “sometimes refer to an entity separate from the club’s corporate owner”. This is a contradiction to the definition of a football club given by FIFA; a definition which is handed down to the Confederations, and from Confederations to Associations.
You may or may not be aware, the application of good governance in football is administered through club licensing. This annual process ensures that minimum standards are maintained, to promote growth and development, and ultimately protects all of football – every club, every player and staff member, the integrity of every competition, suppliers of goods and services, the reputation of sponsors, and most of all the fans. FIFA Club Licensing Regulations state that a license applicant must be a football club, defined as:
“Legal entity fully and solely responsible for the football team participating in national and international club competitions that applies for a licence.”
This is a clear and unambiguous definition, which is being ignored by the SFA. Why is this issue so important? Simply, a football club must be held responsible for its commercial activities. For example, an over-ambitious and over-spending Rangers changed the Scottish football landscape forever. Other clubs tried to compete in an unsustainable “Cold War”-like football arms race. I believe Scottish football was damaged. Many clubs have been taken to the brink of death. This could happen in any country, in any league, anywhere in the world. For that reason, a football club and its corporate body must be one and the same, living or dying, inseparably intertwined. The separation of club and company is a myth, a myth dangerous to good governance. Rangers (1872-2012) should be a cautionary tale told to every club owner.
There are many benefits to club licensing. These including minimum standards for stadia and infrastructure, youth development programs, and much more. I would heartily recommend that you read the FIFA document if you have the time. It gave birth to the word and spirit of Financial Fair Play. Look at some of the financial benefits detailed:
10.3 Benefits
Implementation of the financial criteria will help deliver both short and long-term improvements for clubs, the licensors and the football family in general. For the football family in general, the financial criteria should help to:
• safeguard the continuity and integrity of competitions;
• increase the transparency and credibility of clubs’ financial operations;
• improve confidence in the probity of the football industry;
• create a more attractive market for the game’s commercial partners and investors; and
• provide the basis for fair competition, because competition is not just about the teams on the pitch.
For the licensors, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve their understanding of the financial position and prospects of their member clubs;
• encourage clubs to settle liabilities to creditors on a timely basis;
• enhance transparency in the money flow of clubs;
• enhance their ability to be proactive in assisting clubs with financial issues; and
• provide a starting point for club benchmarking at a national level for those licensors and clubs who want to develop this aspect.
For the clubs, the financial criteria should help to:
• improve the standards and quality of financial management and planning activities;
• enable better management decision-making;
• enhance clubs’ financial and business credibility with stakeholders;
• improve financial stability; and
• enhance revenue-generating ability and cost management.
Important words, and I trust the value and opportunity these regulations offer are now clear. Note bullet points 3 and 4, and that our top league currently does not have a sponsor. The SFA must ensure the integrity of competitions, discourage financial recklessness, and protect football for everyone. This is only possible with a clear, unambiguous statement that confirms club / company are one and the same thing.
To suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation is to undermine the definition of what is a football club, one of the cornerstones of FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. For the SFA to suggest a football club can in some way survive liquidation, or allow this belief to go unchallenged, is a shameful dereliction of duty. It puts all of football in danger. We cannot allow this. There is too much at stake.
The poem ends thus:
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
The blind men were each partially right, though in their vanity / stubbornness / ignorance they failed to find the truth. There is a lesson for us all in this story. This may appear to be an attempt to renew the old club / new club debate. It is not. To see this as an opportunity to score points against Rangers fans is to completely miss the point – you have failed to find the truth.
This is global issue affecting one of the fundamentals of good governance. Good governance must be the beating heart of our game – ensuring good health and long life. I am looking at the here and now, and ahead into the future.
We must protect and promote ALL of the FIFA Club Licensing Regulations. To deny any part is to refuse to see the whole elephant, like the foolish blind men.
” Read my posts and address the issues I’ve raised. Tedious gainsaying is not moving the discussion forward and if you can’t/won’t engage, I’ll leave it there – which you should not interpret at any semblance of success. ”
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I am addressing the issues you raised, you state:
” ” It was clear from previous behaviour that HMRC, as the biggest creditor by far and so the must-have vote, would not be accepting less than 10p in the pound ”.
It was not clear and HMRC to my knowledge do not state this anywhere in their guidelines. I am asking you for the data to support your claim. If you have none then there is no precedent for me to answer, I am not gainsaying, not flogging a dead horse, not claiming success, not refusing to engage but I am trying to move the discussion forward by asking you to support your statement, this would be evidence ignored by D&P and we can both send it to the BDO. One small point, this was not the reason given by HMRC, so that is both footballing debts and now the low percentage removed from our discussion, progress is slow but sure.
m.c.f.c. says: January 31, 2014 at 3:46 pm
D&P fees topped out at £2,783,872.80 incl VAT (£2,319,894.00 excl VAT) – http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/administrators-how-to-spend-millions-in-creditors-interests-the-rangers-way/
Or to put it another way, 51% of £5.5m. Best interests of the creditors ? You decide.
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D&P had clocked up fees of £1,199,355.50 for the six week period from 14th Feb – 30th March 2012.
Compare the arrangements of BDO at Hearts where they have agreed a fixed fee of £325K +VAT for an administration period of up to 12 months.
In some ways the Hearts situation is actually more complex with offshore involvement re the major creditor Ukio Bankas and the major shareholder, UBIG.
john clarke on January 31, 2014 at 3:55 pm
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Yes, DP, it is a little sad when ‘ iconic’ buildings are bull-dozed to leave not a trace. That particular style of building ( the red sandstone parish school board schools) is etched in the minds and hearts of hundreds of thousands of Glaswegian’s still alive.
For many of us, they and the teachers in them,were in large measure the shapers of our characters, the places of our earliest and perhaps longest lasting friendships, and, in our early primary days ( at least in my case) the furthermost point to which we were permitted to travel on foot and alone, with all the sense of adventure attached to exploring neighbourhoods and territories that felt different and strange.
I would like to think that Celtic will keep some at least of the stones and build a little something for incorporation into their proposed new walkway to the stadium.
I hope that at least the possibility has been raised at Board level.
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You caught me off guard there John, I’m just back in after wee Davis Cup afternoon near here and reading through the latest in the Sevco Capers your piece was the sudden sound of familiar voice in a foreign land. An economy of words you’ve used but they hit the emotional bull’s eye and brought a glisten tae ma ee. I’m glad this blog has a place for posts like yours above. My sentiments entirely.
I think we start with the premise that D&P believed the best return for the creditors was not to liquidate Rangers immediately and flog assets nobody wanted.
The logic for selling Rangers as a going concern is obvious, whether this be by a CVA or Newco,, the first bid they accepted was a Newco bid of 11.2 million from Bill Miller tabled on the 20th April. This was after 2 months, it probably took a month to get a statement of accounts together and a prospectus for any hopeful buyer, the rest is bidding up auction time.
As it happened he withdrew the bid due to the uncertainty surrounding where Rangers would be playing and the financial consequences of playing outside the SPL and Europe.
I believe there was an obstacle to any kind of deal happening mid season, the main one being liquidation and loss of registration, Rangers was only worth something if it was still in the SPL..
” Compare the arrangements of BDO at Hearts where they have agreed a fixed fee of £325K +VAT for an administration period of up to 12 months. ”
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Rangers had a turnover more than 3 times the size of Hearts, that is a lot of accounts, and the lunatic CW had not been keeping the accounts up to date, I suggest D&P had to do 9 months of collation and auditing before they even got started, it would have been a can of worms. All of this work and cost would have been done even if it was a straight to liquidation do not pass GO.
Check the small print Angus.
Did you get Michelle or DeeDee? I seem to remember being told of Dundee United signing the brother of their target in error.
Re the likelihood of HMRC accepting D&P’s proposed CVA for RFC(IA).
The received wisdom on the RTC blog at the time was that HMRC were highly unlikely to accept a CVA. Not because of the low p-in-the-£ proportion, or the ‘football creditors’ issue, but because of the behaviour of RFC prior to administration. The HMRC guidelines (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/vas-factsheet.pdf) state that:
“We are also likely to reject a voluntary arrangement where there is evidence of:
• evasion of statutory liabilities or past association with contrived insolvency
• payment of other creditors whilst withholding sums due to the Crown”
Withholding PAYE and VAT to continue trading, and the evidence of organised tax evasion in the BTC, were seen to fall into those categories.
… not if there is another problem with the fax machine
m.c.f.c. says:
January 31, 2014 at 4:22 pm
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expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 4:08 pm
As I said the reasons for the rejection free the administrator from any claims, they could not have known the reasons for rejection and could not therefore calculate how slim or otherwise the chances were.
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All you seem to be saying repeatedly is that D&P could not have known that the CVA was deeply flawed. But surely that is exactly the expertise they are being paid to exercise in the interests of maximising recovery for the creditors. You’ve failed to address any of the issues concerning precedent: either HMRC behaviour or D&P CVA achievements. Please stop flogging this horse – it is a dead horse….
btw – at the risk of being moderated how do you know that D&P didn’t know that the CVA was a rank outsider with three legs ? As Jonnie Cochrane famously said: “There’s something wrong here, there’s something not right”
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Think back to CF tapes. There was much talk of the SFA ‘s**ting’ theselves. Wasn’t there some comments about the administrators opinion on what HMRC would do expressed there?
Don;t recall whether they were shown up as believeing the CVA had any chance (which would make then incompetent) or whether they expect HMRC to push for liquidation (which would make their actions disingeuous)?
Mind may be playing tricks on me but it was in with the stuff when Craig Whyte was giving an appraisal of Mr McCoist that was pretty prescient, from my recollection.
expatbhoy says: January 31, 2014 at 6:30 pm
Rangers had a turnover more than 3 times the size of Hearts, that is a lot of accounts, and the lunatic CW had not been keeping the accounts up to date, I suggest D&P had to do 9 months of collation and auditing before they even got started, it would have been a can of worms. All of this work and cost would have been done even if it was a straight to liquidation do not pass GO.
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I disagree. D&P listed 276 creditors in their first report for RFC, while BDO listed 200 for HMFC within similar timescales. BDO accrued fees of £192K is the same period as D&P accrued £1.2M. The insolvency process is the same as well as being scalable. The difference in turnover is a poisson rouge and does not account for a six fold higher charge by D&P.
” Withholding PAYE and VAT to continue trading, and the evidence of organised tax evasion in the BTC, were seen to fall into those categories. ”
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The BTC was on appeal, the outcome was unknown and the date unknown, an administrator cannot make decisions on unknowns, in reality if HMRC had won they would probably have agreed to the CVA.
If paying creditors and trading using HMRC funds was sufficient to reject a CVA, there would be no CVAs period, non-compliance is withholding your tax dues and every company in administration does it.
The main condition is the previous owner must not benefit from the non-compliance, in other words no CVA if the bidder is linked to the previous owner.
” I disagree. D&P listed 276 creditors in their first report for RFC, while BDO listed 200 for HMFC within similar timescales. BDO accrued fees of £192K is the same period as D&P accrued £1.2M. The insolvency process is the same as well as being scalable. The difference in turnover is a poisson rouge and does not account for a six fold higher charge by D&P.”
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How many on the payroll at Hearts versus Rangers, how many invoices per creditor, I can go on and on, to compare Hearts with its measly turnover of 8 million and its organised administration with a 40-50 million basket case is unsound in my opinion.
A cabbage is not a stapler.
StevieBC says:
January 31, 2014 at 5:10 pm
The closure of the transfer window will at least bring some clarity to TRFC about any additional cash inflows and reductions to the cost base.
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And it allows us to indulge in some idle speculation 🙂
With no transfers out it could mean that things are so bad that any income/wage reduction would make no difference so why bother – I’m inclined to discount this as, in those circumstances, they’d probably be clutching at any available straws.
So it looks as though they have enough cash in hand to make it through to (an early)? ST sales time (possibly by incurring some debt, possibly not).
” Think back to CF tapes.”
I listened to a tape involving CW and D&P, CW thought a fast track CVA was no problem within a month and he quoted 500k, I believe the response was something like ” we will do the best we can “.
Hardly a carve up conspiracy.
If expatbhoy’s analysis is correct, is it fair to infer that the single biggest hindrance to a re-emergent Rangers (even with the helping hand they received from the authorities in gaining entry at all to the SFL) was the closing down of the SPL/Div 1 route?
Certainly if that was the difference between £11.2m from Bill Miller and £5.5m from the spivs it seems to me that (aside from the folly of allowing a club with Rangers’ fan base to get liquidated in the first place) the biggest damage done to their quick ‘recovery’ was the fan power that put a stop to the Big Fix in July 2012.
Still not a punishment though.
Danish Pastry says:Jannie’s hoose first away. A very sad sight to behold @celticfc posted photo links of the destruction of the listed building yesterday.
I have to show the jannie they photos (it will be sad )
In American Football parlance, expatbhoy is running interference!
expatbhoy says: January 31, 2014 at 7:05 pm
How many on the payroll at Hearts versus Rangers, how many invoices per creditor, I can go on and on, to compare Hearts with its measly turnover of 8 million and its organised administration with a 40-50 million basket case is unsound in my opinion.
A cabbage is not a stapler.
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160 on the Hearts payroll and 256 on the Rangers payroll according to the last published accounts before administration.
Hearts “organised administration”? You’re having a laugh. Hearts major creditor in administration. Its largest shareholder without a board of directors from a couple of months earlier and its assets frozen by the Lithuanian courts.
How many redundancies at RFC? There were more at Hearts. Wage reductions? Yes we had them too.
4 or 5 prospective purchasers, tick. Hearts had them too.
A measly £8M turnover. That’s a pretty disrespectful thing to say about another club.
You suggested earlier that it would have taken 9 months for D&P to get the accounts in order. Funny how it only took them 4 months to get a CVA rejected and a deal to buy the assets agreed.
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A troll isn’t necessarily a creature from Scandinavian folklore
easyjambo,
8 million in accountancy terms is measly compared to 40 or 50 million, no disrespect intended.
Comparing any two administrations without all the information is unsound, and is certainly not evidence against D&P, I will ignore the troll comment because I offended you without thinking.
If anyone wants a break from the current debate I can recommend Andy Murray playing on British Eurosport. Fair play rules, too. Davis Cup, and Britain hasn’t beaten the US in a zillion years. Fascinating choice of surface by the Americans, red clay, which is Andy’s poorest … on paper.
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 6:04 pm
It was not clear and HMRC to my knowledge do not state this anywhere in their guidelines. I am asking you for the data to support your claim. If you have none then there is no precedent for me to answer, I am not gainsaying, not flogging a dead horse, not claiming success, not refusing to engage
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So why don’t you address my question from 2:07
Can you give an example where HMRC has accepted anything near 10p in the pound where they were the major creditor and there was overwhelming prima facie evidence of industrial, persistent and prolonged evasion and similar evidence of attempts to deny HMRC access to documentation of such ?
Martin says:
January 31, 2014 at 5:01 pm
Ecobhoy,
I now have an image of Craig Whyte and Sandy Easdale wrestling at the top of the marble staircase for control of the assets fixed in my mind. Thanks for that. 😀
I’m picturing a no holds barred contest with biting and scratching allowed though I can’t see the bout going the distance. Both men inevitably succumbing to the slippery steps and tumbling bloodied and bruised into the street below.
The aftermath interviews see each protagonist claiming victory through gritted teeth and offering up tufts of their opponent’s hair as trophies while the SFA appointed referee is sedated by a paramedic.
Ok I’ll concede I’ve got an overactive imagination, but hey it’s Friday, I’m allowed to indulge. By the way, does anyone know the height and weight of the prospective combatants?
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LOL! Need to keep an eye on KDS – surely one of the Bhoys has a great subject for a cartoon – with Struth looking on complete with halo 😆
I think Easdale would fit in the Bruiserweight and CW would defo be strawweight . How can we even things up – maybe CW is allowed to pick a Champion or get a 30 sec start to get down the marble stairs 😎
Can anyone advise why Celtic needed to buy Leigh Griffiths? I’m not getting it.
It’s not as if they’ve been short of goals recently, and I also shouldn’t think he’s the guy to set Europe alight next year (quite apart from being a proper wee toerag who will probably embarass the club at some stage) …
Interesting how someone can post so many posts arguing the same, redundant, point, especially when what they are saying is of no consequence to where TRFC find themselves now (although it was a step in their sojourn to where they find themselves now). Even if we are to accept that D&P acted honourably in everything they did for CW and CG, sorry, I mean the club’s creditors, an additional £4m was lost and not a penny more gained as a result of holding onto those highly paid employees. Of course, it could be asked, if those highly paid individuals were only held onto because they had a high asset value, why was none of the non-valuable assets (non-saleable players and a very overpriced manager) and others kept on the payroll? I’d imagine stripping down a company of all but the best assets would create a much more saleable club, if that was indeed the reason for holding onto all the players, instead of some plan to make CW, or CG, more money, as CG, at least, was of the misconception that, in the inevitable liquidation, all the players would TUPE over to his new club, making him an even greater profit from his spivery.
My apologies for trying to use common sense rather than arguing what is right and what is wrong with a particular administration/liquidation. Sometimes the quality (or lack of) of the people involved in such things, makes the likelihood of things being above board very remote. Then when the end result means the only deserving people, the creditors, get £4m less in their pot than they would otherwise have done…
Oh yeh, and why is so much time being taken up, on this transfer deadline evening, with such an old topic?
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 6:04 pm
” Read my posts and address the issues I’ve raised.
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No thankyou ➡
ecobhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 7:55 pm
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If its a KDS cartoon – they’ll be fighting over the goat.
Allyjambo,
How many cheap players would D&P have to release to equate to the pay cuts of the highest earning assets?
A football team needs 11 players to participate, do the math.
The 4 million could have been 3 million, and the creditors could have got 11.2 million, but the fans( not me) wanted Rangers to start at the bottom, this is what happens when you give fans a voice, everyone loses.
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 That a bhoy get it all out.
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:12 p
My maths aint that great, can’t work out how many players you could get rid of, from 50 odd, leaving enough to field a team, especially when your season was over. A joke of a manager, on an even bigger joke of a wage, stays in place! Still can’t understand why you want to argue in favour of D&P at this stage. Until we hear from BDO they are an irrelevance to the state TRFC are in now. Unless, of course, you are preparing the way for an argument in favour of Wallace and co not selling, or offloading, any players during the transfer window. It seems quite similar. Except, of course, when it comes to the word ‘valuable’ 😉
Someone is batting well for D&P today, there are another few little abnormal signs relating to Whyte’s state of mind, Hearts Financial standing and who really lost out.
Emmmmmm, I will dig a little deeper…..
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:16 pm
ecobhoy,
The feeling is mutual dear sir, and for your information those were not my words, try and keep up.
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If you actually had the courtesy to tag comments with the user name I might read your posts.
Allyjambo says:
January 31, 2014 at 7:59 pm
Oh yeh, and why is so much time being taken up, on this transfer deadline evening, with such an old topic?
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Why indeed ❓
expatbhoy
Let’s play that game where we all sit round with post-its on our foreheads
So to recap:
· You are alive
· You feign superior knowledge of all things administration
· You know the inner thoughts of D&P
· You ignore all salient questions that undermine your position
· You make bold but dubious statements, expecting all to accept them
· You become irritable when cornered
· You expect others to quote chapter and verse to support their points – often in the negative
I think I know.
Are you DeNiall ?
” Can you give an example where HMRC has accepted anything near 10p in the pound where they were the major creditor and there was overwhelming prima facie evidence of industrial, persistent and prolonged evasion and similar evidence of attempts to deny HMRC access to documentation of such ? ”
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Unfortunately for you, in a debate of this nature neither your personal experience nor mine determines HMRC policy. Therefore the onus is not on me to disprove your claim my friend, the onus is on you to prove your claim, you can start with HMRC guidelines, the same data D&P are obligated to use.
Here is the link:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/vas-factsheet.p
Angus1983 says:
January 31, 2014 at 7:58 pm
Can anyone advise why Celtic needed to buy Leigh Griffiths? I’m not getting it.
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Probably to stop Rangers getting him 😛
ecobhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:45 pm
Why indeed ❓
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Eco – maybe Jack is running the meter while he can.
m.c.f.c. says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:47 pm
expatbhoy
Let’s play that game where we all sit round with post-its on our foreheads
I think I know. Are you DeNiall ?
================================
Well he’s going to deny that for a start 😆
m.c.f.c. says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:51 pm
ecobhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:45 pm
Why indeed ❓
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Eco – maybe Jack is running the meter while he can.
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I wonder whether Jack came up with the wheez to throw Craigie doonra sterrs ❓
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:12 pm
“…when you give fans a voice, everyone loses.”
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Need to change your name now.
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:12 pm
The 4 million could have been 3 million, and the creditors could have got 11.2 million, but the fans( not me) wanted Rangers to start at the bottom, this is what happens when you give fans a voice, everyone loses.
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Ok I’ll bite.
Who loses exactly?
That will obviously be Aberdeen who have increased attendances. Nope not them.
Motherwell? Nope their attendances are the same and both them and Aberdeen are having a healthy fight for second place where the better prize money for finishing second will go a long way.
Dundee United then? Nope their attendances are static and recently sold out for their home game against Aberdeen. They are also introducing exciting young talent.
Hibernian? Nope sorry. Recently had largest attendance in nearly 20 years for home game against Hearts.
Hearts, must be Hearts, after all they are in admin? Sorry to disappoint again. Their attendances are also up, taking large support to away grounds and the seeds of their problems were sown prior to RFC’s demise. Alljambo could give you better information concerning Hearts.
Celtic then, must be them, after all their fans desperately miss the ‘Old Firm’ games and ‘banter’!
Sorry again but I’ve yet to meet a Celtic fan who wants ‘The Rangers’ back. In fact I’ve met a few who have said they will not attend any games against the morally, and financially, bankrupt new entity.
Although crowds are down financially they are better off with two years Champions League money and a policy of investing and selling on talent. At the end of the day, if anything has been proven over the last two years, it is that our sport is no longer governed for the good of two clubs.
I could go on but suffice to say that most clubs have gained.
The losers are few or indeed limited to one club/company/entity/whatever it is and that is an organisation who thought it could rob the public purse and then intimidate its way back into the top flight of our national sport. They were rumbled and found out. Only their friends at Hampden, and believe me, they are the only friends they now have could assist them and even that was limited in allowing them to jump the queue to the bottom league. They are the pariahs of our sport and held in utter contempt by all.
This takes me back to the good old days on Random Thoughts with a few familiar faces Eco, Coat, Mcfc and Steerpike. 😆
ecobhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:54 pm
I wonder whether Jack came up with the wheez to throw Craigie doonra sterrs ❓
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I’m sure Sandy is an equal opportunities employer and has offered to throw every devious, obsequious, back-stabbing, money-grabbing, toe-rag down the marble stairs – could be quite a pile at the bottom. Not sure why Craigie is favoured with a mention – I’m sure Jack put in a kind word on his behalf.
As for ‘throwing Craig Whyte doon the stairs’. For all he knows they could very well be CRAIG WHYTE’S STAIRS. He might not even get in the door or indeed to the stairs as he may have invested his money in worthless stairs, sorry, shares!
hector says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:04 pm
This takes me back to the good old days on Random Thoughts with a few familiar faces Eco, Coat, Mcfc and Steerpike. 😆
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A shiver runs through me at the mention of Steerpike – more effective than mogadon 😆
hector says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:04 pm
This takes me back to the good old days on Random Thoughts with a few familiar faces Eco, Coat, Mcfc and Steerpike. 😆
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Hector – good times indeed – but do I have to be next to Steerpike – can I be next to Carson – he’s much better company 🙂
” Who loses exactly? ”
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Thank you for asking.
Starting in order of priority:
The creditors lost at least 6 million, remember the poor creditors?
Scottish football lost valuable TV and sponsors money.
Rangers lost 20 million.
Celtic lost 2 million.
Now the rest of Scottish football may have had some marginal improvement but can we argue this improvement would not have happened anyway?
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 7:05 pm
” I disagree. D&P listed 276 creditors in their first report for RFC, while BDO listed 200 for HMFC within similar timescales. BDO accrued fees of £192K is the same period as D&P accrued £1.2M.
The insolvency process is the same as well as being scalable. The difference in turnover is a poisson rouge and does not account for a six fold higher charge by D&P.”
————————————————————————————————————
How many on the payroll at Hearts versus Rangers, how many invoices per creditor, I can go on and on, to compare Hearts with its measly turnover of 8 million and its organised administration with a 40-50 million basket case is unsound in my opinion.
A cabbage is not a stapler.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
True. But a cabbage can be sauer.
jean7brodie says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:21 pm
Post-its on foreheid time again. Are you American?
_______________
Wondered that myself, jean, when he asked me to ‘do the math’. But sadly, I can’t 😥
Anyway I must retire, I am peaked out.
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:28 pm
” Who loses exactly? ”
——————————
Thank you for asking.
Starting in order of priority:
The creditors lost at least 6 million, remember the poor creditors?
Scottish football lost valuable TV and sponsors money.
Rangers lost 20 million.
Celtic lost 2 million.
Now the rest of Scottish football may have had some marginal improvement but can we argue this improvement would not have happened anyway?
______________________________________-
Not sure what you’re getting at, but I can assure you; that was ALL Rangers’ fault! Not the supporters.
Expatbhoy.
I have some sympathy with your stance in that you do seem to argue with some modicum of logic. The problem is that these discussions were well gone over some time in the past and much of the detail is not immediately recoverable from memory. If the subject was poignant, say in the case that BDO had just released its report, I’d imagine that contributors would go scurrying for their back catalogue of information to reconstruct events. However such an academic discussion as it presently is, does not inspire that level of curiosity.
However potentially informative the discussion might be it is not really currently pertinent as far as I can see. I admire your tenacity but feel it is being expended in a side show. Has there been a recent trigger that has brought these discussions back to mind?
The audio including D&P did not give the impression that D&P were acting as the laymen would have anticipated administrators to act. Although we may be a bit judgemental, the impression built up by this and other material posted did not place D&P in a good light. This impression may have solidified into some kind of prejudice over the passage of time but I do not think it is a prejudice without merit.
Danish Pastry says:john clarke on January 31, 2014 at 3:55 pm
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Yes, DP, it is a little sad when ‘ iconic’ buildings are bull-dozed to leave not a trace. That particular style of building ( the red sandstone parish school board schools) is etched in the minds and hearts of hundreds of thousands of Glaswegian’s still alive.
I know the janitor well and will show him the pictures of the school being demolished,don’t know how he will react though 🙂 😡 😈 🙄 .
He has some great stories about celtic players and managers and directors as they use to park their cars in the school
If Sandy Easdale has an official outlet for his musings I have to say that I’ve missed it. Fortunately for those interested Bill McMurdo has taken up the cause and brought Sandy’s thoughts to an audience which includes a limited amount of the Rangers support and a few interested observers.
The piece Bill McMurdo produced entitled “Sandy Easdale Speaks Out” didn’t quite meet the target audience as expected. Naturally the comments on his blog were full of approval but those comments are selected and consequently not reflective of the of the wider Rangers support.
I’m not sure how one might gauge the feelings and views of the Rangers support, fragmented as they are, as it happens I’m not alone in this.
As prolific a blogger as Bill McMurdo is, it’s surprising to see him offer two posts on the same day, particularly if the second provides a necessary corrective to the first. Perhaps he understands the Rangers support and the wider public view all too well
The “Sandy Easdale Speakes Out” piece could easily be interpreted as – Sandy Easdale lashes out, or Sandy Easdale is simply out there, somewhat distant from the plot.
In PR terms the first piece was a disaster and one which required an immediate corrective.
Bill McMurdo provides one, it’s excruciating to read. It’s not the work of a professional and begs the question.
Is Jack Irvine still on the payroll?
Correct.
It wouldn’t have happened. The reason crowds are up is partly because there’s more to play for, and partly as a V-sign to those who predicted Armageddon.
I would argue it’s due to the fact that a cloud has been lifted over Scottish football – teams that drove themselves towards the brink of ruin to try and keep pace with a team who, it turns out, they could never have hoped to match, are suddenly seeing that there was rewards in actually paying their debts and doing things the right way.
Let’s get one thing straight, Scottish football has not lost out on TV money because of Rangers demise – it’s lost out due to the incompetence of the SFA in negotiations with TV companies. It’s often been pointed out, but Scotland has a far larger football audience per head of population than almost anywhere else in Europe, and yet we get a fraction of the tv money of much smaller nations. The yardstick is the much discussed (on here at least) Norweigan league – attendances are far smaller in Norway, the TV audience is much smaller, yet their league deal is for 40 million+ a year. Rosenborg are a smaller club than Celtic, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, and yet they’ve got a bigger annual Budget than all of the aforementioned apart from Celtic, due almost wholly to their TV deal!
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:28 pm
” Who loses exactly? ”
——————————
Thank you for asking.
Starting in order of priority:
The creditors lost at least 6 million, remember the poor creditors?
Scottish football lost valuable TV and sponsors money.
Rangers lost 20 million.
Celtic lost 2 million.
============================================================================
The creditors lost?
Outstanding!
The creditors were NEVER getting anything out of this carve up except royally, or is that loyally, done over.
Rangers LOST £20M!
This is the crux of the matter. RFC NEVER, NEVER, NEVER had £20M. For nigh on quarter of a century they have used other peoples money to massage their ego and buy success and when the people wanted their money back they ran away.
As for TV and sponsorship. Well certainly ‘The Rangers’ have lost because few sponsors would want to be associated with such a toxic brand but yet again that is a situation entirely of their own making. The TV deal has now been distributed better and even teams outwith the top flight are getting more cash so I don’t know who has lost their with the exception, yet again, the entity from Govan.
Finally Celtic have lost £2M.
Really. No seriously really!
I think most Celtic fans would swap the money from the two games against RFC/’The Rangers’ for the £7M generated from the Champions League home games.
Once again the losers are limited to one and it is all their own fault.
Campbellsmoney says:
January 31, 2014 at 2:01 pm
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 1:20 pm
No administrator can give away millions of pounds worth of player assets without trying a CVA first, asking for a pay cut until a CVA was proposed was the most prudent course of action, the administrator cannot just assume the CVA would be rejected without getting a refusal.
HMRC only refuse CVAs that are proposed not before.
Hindsight is 20-20.
———————————————————————————————————————————————
Why did HMRC choose to vote against the CVA?
Because (and in this particular case this will not have been the only reason) the CVA envisaged that football debts would be paid in full. HMRC had made it abundantly clear in publicly available guidelines that they would oppose CVAs that attempted to do such a thing. So why bother attempting a CVA at all when the arithmetic meant it was doomed to fail? All insolvency practitioners know about these guidelines.
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That is how HMRC work in a normal football CVA – for Rangers there were three differences.
1) They were non compliant as regards PAYE, NIC & VAT payment and had been for quite some time
2) They were non compliant as regards tax planing – “Discounted Option Scheme – “Wee Tax Case” and EBT’s “Big Tax Case” – were there more car and benefits related scams? Probably.
3) HMRC had 75% of the debt but let the ball slip from their hands when at Court when the Administrator was appointed. Why did D&P get the gig and not HMRC’s chosen one?
Echobhoy.
‘State Aid’. The information you brought forward on the land in Dalmarnock was excellent. There are so many more aspects to appraisal and redevelopment of inner city land though, many of which turn their course a number of times before the city council ever get a look-in. Parkhead and Dalmarnock must be amongst the most surveyed and sampled and reported upon parts of Europe imaginable. I am one that FTH would learn a lot from – they should save themselves some bother and leave it at what you have already uncovered. That said, many of the detailed decisions on the Parkhead area do leave grey areas on remediation which are not ideal – for the new landowners!
And to the sages, its great that we appreciate our built environment and heritage, it’d be better still if we all understood the cost to fix the excess of industry – particularly in the east end of Glasgow.
Re Auchenhowie v Lennoxtown.- They both went across my desk. Lennoxtown was a very, very strange development. Every objection imaginable was received from unimaginable sources – Celtic buckled down and worked through them and everyone got a piece of pie. Murray Park ‘sailed’. However the funding was more complicated than suggested, Someone back on RTC once got close with mention of SFA funding for access that (-)SDM subsequently restricted to the hours after midnight, The SFA facility at Toryglen was commissioned soon after on a site that, was so heavily compromised 2 Auchenhowies could have been built for the remediation costs..
Seek out the irony with at the Sevco Blind Asylum. They will not see. The establishment will have their way.
?!?
I think I’ve heard enough. Perhaps you’re not familiar with the timeline, but Rangers were already in liquidation by the time the vote for Sevco to be dropped in the SPL came about. The creditors would have got no more than they already have – precisely nothing. Having a Rangers (any Rangers!) in the SPL would have changed nothing in terms of the creditors. It might have persuaded the SFA to press SKY to continue paying us 4 peanuts, instead of 3, but that’s about the only difference it would have made.
Shooberb,
To suggest more fans are going to games because of some moral sense of justice or indignation is not easy for me to digest, and negotiating a TV market without half of the audience is hardly holding aces.
OT slightly…………seems silly BBC reporting this – after all liquidation just means you can shed the debt and start again – what’s the big deal?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25993160
Established jeweller Henderson goes into liquidation
One of Scotland’s oldest jewellers has gone into liquidation. Henderson had branches throughout Scotland.
Henderson, which was established in Coatbridge in 1886, had 14 branches throughout the country.
The vast majority of the company’s 79 staff were made redundant last week.
Provisional liquidator Brian Milne, from French Duncan, said: “It would seem that Henderson has fallen victim to the challenging trading conditions that the economic downturn has imposed on many retailers over recent years.”
He added: “It is particularly regrettable, given Henderson’s long history, that it has fallen into liquidation.”
Henderson had branches in areas including, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Kilmarnock, Dunfermline and Hamilton
A bit late to get your mum’s tea. You really must insist on her care home serving it earlier
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:49 pm
” I have some sympathy with your stance in that you do seem to argue with some modicum of logic. ”
—————————————————————————————————————————————–
Thank you for these kind words,sorry for the digression, the general point was the fans lost the creditors more money than D&P, it was their decision to block Rangers entry that cost the most, and I think they should be ashamed.
I am not happy about the transfer news, selling Ledley and buying a championship reject is hardly inspiring me, much more of this and I will start supporting Manchester City, with all the other financial fair play advocates.
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Nice touch putting an H in your name there expatbhoy…………….you nearly had me fooled on your first post………
TSFM – you mentioned a week or so ago a great sudden influx of posters wanting to register all of a sudden. Was one of them todays frantic poster? We should be told
– after all, Ally would name names………………….
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:12 pm
A football team needs 11 players to participate, do the math.
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expatbhoy….forgive my apparent pedantry, but your expression…”do the math” indicates, superficially at least, your education/location/residence is well rooted on the other side of the Atlantic (that big stretch of water between the UK and the USA)
Whilst I am the first to admit that my current professional experience is a long way short of that of an Insolvency Practitioner, you certainly seem to be, superficially at least, to be well versed in the most intricate technical aspects of a most specialised area of UK company law.
If I am wrong and appear offensive, please blame it on the vintage 2008 Barolo I have opened to celebrate the end of the UK tax filing deadlines…!
ecobhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 8:48 pm
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Angus1983 says:
January 31, 2014 at 7:58 pm
Can anyone advise why Celtic needed to buy Leigh Griffiths? I’m not getting it.
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Probably to stop Rangers getting him 😛
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Ecobhoy….reminds of how Jock Stein used to operate when signing players…!
Why is that so hard to believe? It’s what’s sustained the Ibrox crowds so far. Do you honestly think they’d be getting 38,000+ to watch their heroes play against postmen, brickies and students if they hadn’t been whipped into some sort of victimisation frenzy?
I would suggest that perhaps you should get out more and talk to fans at other clubs. Where do you think these extra fans have come from? Remember ‘Sell out Saturday’, a reaction to the predictions of Armageddon? Remember how it was scoffed at by all and sundry in the media when the grounds didn’t fill? Well, they took their eye off the ball. The grounds didn’t sell out, but a lot of the extra fans that turned up that day continued to turn up week after week, so rather than just benefit from a one-off full ground, those clubs have benefitted long term.
And I think you’ve fallen into the trap of assuming that at least half of the TV audience are not only Rangers fans, but will only watch Rangers games. Sky probably can’t believe their luck that they had Neil Doncaster defecating all over our game, and then having to approach SKY to negotiate a subsequent deal.
Martin says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:47 pm
If Sandy Easdale has an official outlet for his musings
*************
He does – its called TRFC media – the news and TV service set up allegedly by Jim Traynor to put out the message to the 5 million (or trillion?) TRFC fans all over the universe………..wonder why he never used that outlet to state his “throw him down the marble stairs” or “knee cap him” or whatever threat he wanted to issue………
Wonder how the WIFI is doing now Jim has left – hope he left the instructions……….
GeronimosCadillac says:
January 31, 2014 at 9:52 pm
” Why did D&P get the gig and not HMRC?”
—————————
My recollection was that CW pushed for D&P (for reasons that have become clearer over time) and that HMRC accepted this. Neepheid has made his disgruntlement at Lord Hodge’s handling of the administration recently and he may recall if LH was in court on this particular occasion.
Speculation had been that this was a tactic by HMRC, possibly having some inside track of a potentially wayward administration. I think there was some surprise that HMRC didn’t push for their own administrators but such machinations are beyond my ken. If HMRC were playing it canny and wanted to catch all the culprits with their hands in the till then giving CW/D&P enough rope might transpire to have been a clever ploy.
Neepheid’s judicial scepticism has become infectious however and at every turn when it was anticipated that justice would be seen to be done, we have been sorely disappointed.
One point where I must diverge from Expatbhoy is the idea that the fans boycott was somehow mendacious. Virtually every attempt to raise non OF fans ire in this affair has fell on deaf ears. The fact that they did act on this point suggests that there was a deep and meaningful undercurrent of resentment. It was the largest possible jury of opinion that could be assembled and I don’t think its decision should be dismissed lightly. This action, even if it proves to be deleterious at some point in the future (and I don’t think it will), was the only time when ordinary football supporters had their say. This was not an orchestrated campaign as far as I can see but a gut human reaction to events.
So far CW has been warned off by CG, Charlie would stop him personally at the bottom of the stairs, and now SE wants to turn him into some sort of human slinky.
Don’t give up wee man, at least you have progressed from front door to the top of the stairs. That’s better than Kermit or those rebel muppets.
Doh ❗ the answer is not in the pies, its the stairs. film title involving people under stairs in there as well.
And what’s CG’s wee @@@@ friend taking them to court for now or is it still the same case? has he not been at the trough yet?
Again, Bill Miller was well before any fans campaign began (unless you count the Rangers fans telling him where to go), but then…….. you knew that anyway.
I think I’ve gulped enough of your hooks. Bye!
That’s defintely the sort of thing Niall Walker aka Steerpike aka Don Quixote http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/postcard-from-the-edge-why-its-a-cva-or-bust-for-rangers-guest-post-by-don-quixote/ would write
It looks like “expatbhoy” has been outed folks. Well played.
Expats usually post from overseas, so his choice of name was odd. As trolls go, he wasn’t very good – no patience or eye for the big picture – but I’m happy to see that we generally gave him enough rope which he quickly used on himself.
Incidentally he was another of the Bauhaus, Steerpike, Old Gold, Enkafid alias-pool.
“The fans cost the creditors 6 million.”
That actually made me chuckle a bit.
Not the team who stole all of the money and didn’t pay the people they owed. It was actually the supporters of other clubs who refused to allow the new team into the top league debt free.
True genius.
On the (selective) memories of Bill Millar,
He would have paid top dollar were it not for them pesky fans.
Oh and the yawning chasm in the balance sheet. The yawning chasm and the pesky fans.
And the bear protests. The bear protests, the yawning chasm and the pesky fans.
And the DR photographer outside the yard. So that’s the photographer, the bear protests, the chasm and the pesky fans.
And the accepted logic that to newco, even with a posh sounding name like incubate, was to create a new club. So, lets see, thats tiresome logic, the photographer, the bear protests, the chasm, and the pesky fans.
And the fact that your chosen placeman went rogue. So, going rogue with logic, a photographic bear, pesky fans ayawning and a chasm in a troll tree.
Still, at least you’ve got your history eh 😉
expatbhoy says:
January 31, 2014 at 10:07 pm
Shooberb,
To suggest more fans are going to games because of some moral sense of justice or indignation is not easy for me to digest, and negotiating a TV market without half of the audience is hardly holding aces.
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If half the audience is missing then why not exclude tv from live matches as it’s obviously not worth it, as the present TV money demonstrates. Let’s go for highlights only.