After making inquiries into progress on Resolution 12 to the Celtic AGM of 2013 there is little doubt in my mind that the SFA made a serious error in the process of UEFA licensing.
Here are some facts:
- UEFA does not issue licences to clubs who have due tax bills outstanding,
- UEFA require the SFA to satisfy themselves of a club’s eligibility for a licence and that clubs have provided proof no overdue tax payable exists,
- UEFA also require a club to tell the SFA and UEFA if, after the issue of a licence there are material changes in their circumstances which would affect their eligibility – including the situation at #1 above,
- UEFA awarded Rangers a licence to play in European competition in March 2011,
- In May 2011 Rangers received a tax bill, which they did not contest or appeal or agree a payment plan. The bill (which remains unpaid) was overdue by 30 June 2011,
- UEFA received no notice of this,
- Rangers did not lose their licence and in fact competed in both the Champions’ League and The Europa League in that season.
None of these facts are disputed (as far as is known) by anyone connected to the saga. What is in doubt, because the SFA won’t answer the question, is whether they received a copy of the tax bill and the May letter that accompanied it from Rangers or not.
If they did send it to the SFA, Rangers could reasonably argue that they did their bit and the SFA fell down on the job by failing to notify UEFA of their new unfavourable tax status.
If Rangers did not send it, then they had broken not only UEFA FFP rules but more importantly the trust amongst SFA members that full disclosure is honestly made in a self-certification process. The SFA in not carrying out their monitoring responsibilities properly and using the powers UEFA FFP gave them also broke that trust.
In either case, there is a systematic failure by the SFA to administer the sport effectively; either through a failure of trust, a failure of administration – or both.
Even worse, in the four years that have elapsed since this incident, it seems that nothing has been done to put matters right. The SFA have been very active in refusing to answer questions on the matter, particularly this one;
“How will you prevent it happening again?”
Incredibly, up to now, no measures have been put in place to add rigour to the licensing process. Are they really saying that they think the process was carried out satisfactorily?
No they are saying nothing. Silence and denial, followed by silence and inaction.
So what is the point of this article? Let’s call out the elephant in the room right away – it is unequivocally not to have a go at Rangers. This is no longer really about Rangers at all, but about the SFA’s mal-governance of the game. Besides, clubs affected by this seeming failure on the part of the authorities (in that year Celtic, Dundee United and Hearts and Kilmarnock) are hardly likely to successfully sue a club now in liquidation (although small shareholders might take a different view with regard to the SFA’s conduct).
Nor am I seeking to find some retrospective punishment for the club (as far as I know sanctions are neither available retrospectively, nor useful in this case ) but to be aware that the question above urgently needs to be addressed if the status of football as a sport is to be maintained.
To the extent that this is about what has happened to Rangers, does anyone – no matter what club they owe their allegiance to – seriously consider that TRFC would NOT be in a better situation today had the SFA acted with propriety and applied their rules correctly in 2011/12?
With the kind of money on offer these days for entry into Europe, and the interdependent nature of the game, it seems fairly self-evident that trust is not enough to allow effective regulation, and that incompetent governance where money is the paramount consideration is unacceptable.
The SFA has long enjoyed a misconceived impression of its function as being that of a quasi-legal body, bestowing upon it a status of independence and aloofness from the partisan interest of the clubs. In the main, fans have largely bought into that myth. However the SFA is nothing of the kind.
It is in fact merely a cartel which is allowed to govern itself for its own benefit and is only accountable to the clubs that make up its membership, and not the fans. Check out the last sentences of almost any rule, where discretionary powers awarded to itself effectively render the rule worthless and unenforceable.
Literally, a nihilistic approach to governance
Maybe it is time the SFA scrapped the get out of jail discretionary clauses, and put some robust regulation in place to ensure the financial transparency of all clubs?
Even better, politicians are never slow to tell us of the importance of football to the social fabric of the country – in that case why not follow their own rhetoric, recognise that it cannot be allowed to self regulate in narrow self interest, and legislate to have football governed independently?
If I was a Rangers fan, I’d be thinking that the SFA’s failure to police the UEFA licencing issue helped accelerate the club’s demise – by making it easier to paper over the cracks.
If I was a Celtic, Hearts, Dundee United or Killie fan, well the consequences for them in terms of lost financial and competitive opportunities are fairly obvious.
Conclusion? The clubs can no longer be trusted to run the affairs of the industry themselves.
A new independent, accountable regulatory body (funded by the clubs) is the minimum we need to save the game in this country. It should comprise representatives of the clubs, the fans and other stakeholders – and it should have a holistic remit as its prime directive, whilst ensuring fair and equitable treatment of all clubs.
It can take decisions on the basis of what is good for the game without the baggage of self-interest, and without any west of Scotland institutionalised bias. Of course Scotland isn’t alone in this. Football is a powerful political force across the world, and as developments at FIFA over the past couple of years have demonstrated, it is institutionally corrupt. The clubs can no longer be allowed to run it as they see fit, and we need to begin a campaign which will ultimately convince the pay-at-the-gate fan of the truth of that.
The UEFA licensing issue is only a pebble in the sand of football incompetence and corruption, but it is a microcosm of what ails the game. The good of the sport, and not individual clubs, is paramount. The SFA cannot and will not deliver that.
The case for a new regulatory body is clear, and the status quo is not an option unless the death of the sport is deemed acceptable.
There is little doubt in my mind that unless regime change is effected, in a few decades there will be no regime .
tykebhoy 8th October 2015 at 4:53 pm
Dunno Tyke! Seems more like a deliberate attempt to deceive…..But maybe I just think too much about things.
Allyjambo, yeah master plan was maybe the wrong word, and certainly the wheels have come off the bogie a bit
. But I just feel that all concerned knew the current legal ongoings were a distinct possibility yet all still played their hand. I don’t think any of these guys felt compelled to save Rangers (IL) out of compassion and are definitely not going to fall on their sword to save a supreme being if you like so it has to be money and maybe they felt the risk is worth it.
Will the SFA and Stuart Reagan continue to throw their support behind Mr Platini ? of course they will because if they didn’t know he was breaking any rules before he was accused (caught) that’s OK.
Are there are any truly, honest people ;
– at FIFA
– at UEFA
– or at the SFA ?
You would think that any person with integrity would have resigned from these organisations long before now…IMO.
EasyJambo 2016.
Thanks for that info. The loss of Wallace to Celtic was certainly one that hurt John H jnr.
He is now working for Dundee and his love for the game is clear.
Thanks but I am only able to question his figures due to sterling work by the likes of yourself and barcabhoy. It is becoming clear though that he is also operating a very clear censorship policy on what can be commented on and his own content seems to centre on hurling abuse with a few “facts and figures” harvested from other blogs/forums thrown in to make it seem constructive. As allyjambo pointed out at least hes awakening a few bears but I remain very suspicious of his motives for that.
StevieBC 8th October 2015 at 5:54 pm
“You would think that any person with integrity would have resigned from these organisations long before now”
————————————————————————————————–
I think they did,………..And a very very long time ago!
I see some earlier posts about the player from the 60’s, Willie Hamilton. Jock Stein, who managed him at Hibs, is on record describing him as comparable to Kenny Dalglish in footballing talent.
I remember reading a story where the rest of the Hibs payers saw big Jock slip Willie Hamilton a tenner one midweek. They knew the money was destined for the bookies and the pub and Pat Stanton raised the matter with big Jock. His reply was ‘if he doesn’t take chances through the week he won’t take them on a Saturday’. I have read that big Jock had a similar relationship with Willie Hamilton as he had with Jimmy Johnstone. Basically that was to do all he could to keep them sober on a Friday, they then did the business on the field on a Saturday, then they were let loose on a Saturday night. Jimmy Johnstone even had his own room at big Jock’s house!
What is this new mumbo jumbo people are coming up with regarding Tax “escrow” accounts.
Whilst it would be entirely sensible for a business to put an VAT / PAYE / NI it collects into a separate bank account as far as I am aware there is no actual requirement to do it. Certainly not into an escrow account. In any case if they were doing it they would really only have to hold the net tax.
HMRC can demand security in certain circumstances, for example if there is a history of failure to pay what is due on time. In those instances they can demand a payment be made to them, possibly some form of guarantee in lieu of that, however that really isn’t the same thing.
In any case from the perspective of any PAYE element, the amount held by the business isn’t actually going to be that great in relative terms I wouldn’t have thought. Basically there shouldn’t be much more than a months worth at any given time.
Overview https://www.gov.uk/running-payroll/overview
Paying HMRC https://www.gov.uk/running-payroll/paying-hmrc
7. Paying HMRCEvery month you have to pay HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC):
the tax and National Insurance (and any other deductions) you owe as reported on your Full Payment Submission (FPS) in the previous tax month
minus the reductions on any Employer Payment Summary (EPS) you sent before the 19th in the current tax month
Pay what you owe by the 22nd of the month (or the 19th if paying by post) – you may have to pay a penalty if you don’t.
Ways to Pay https://www.gov.uk/pay-paye-tax
If the players are working under some sort of Self Assessment system then would the club even hold any of the money in the first place.
Still on Willie Hamilton. This is worth a read.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/hamilton-s-forgotten-genius-lit-up-lives-1-690142#axzz3o08JZgAk
Stevie BC/corrupt Official
surely there can be no hiding place now for anyone at any level in World Football that has accepted any kind of monies out with the wage they accepted to carry out the job they where employed to do,we are lucky here in Scotland that our SFA could never be caught out in financial shenanigans ,maybe caught out is not the correct phrase to use ,but you know what I mean.
yourhavingalaugh 8th October 2015 at 7:28 pm #Stevie BC/corrupt Officialsurely there can be no hiding place now for anyone at any level in World Football that has accepted any kind of monies out with the wage they accepted to carry out the job they where employed to do,we are lucky here in Scotland that our SFA could never be caught out in financial shenanigans ,maybe caught out is not the correct phrase to use ,but you know what I mean.
====================================================
The SFA, like FIFA, can never be “caught out” as you say, because they self investigate. It’s when outsiders, whether that be plod or bampots investigate they get caught.
There is no doubt in my mind that Scotland’s governing bodies , colluded with the arrested parties resulting in where we are now. Despite the fact that they (SFA) bulldozed through the laws of the game, unless plod can uncover evidence of actual law-breaking, they are home and dry as far as they are concerned.
Believe me, even though the TRFC saga is dragging the game through the mire in the most damaging fashion, “What do they have on us?” will be the only thing occupying their mind. They will do whatever it takes, using every “friend” at their disposal, to make sure the answer to that is “Nothing!”.
The bunker door will stay bolted until it is charged down by bampots and fans of EVERY club. For reasons I do not understand, the clubs themselves appear unwilling or unable to do so.
The need for reform at the SFA is long overdue: this seems fairly obvious, IMO, to the paying punters.
But maybe the only way there will be real reform – if it is not ‘somehow’ instigated externally – is if the clubs themselves resign from the SFA ?
I know…
The conundrum is how to effect that change when the clubs themselves are complicit in the SFA’s incompetence and corruption ?
To state the bleedin’ obvious.
So probably our the last chance for maybe ? 5% of our demographic gone to see Scotland in a major tournament .
Sad and OK difficult group but how many ways can we think of going out?
Anyhoos Strachan on the radio.
England & Northern Ireland through.
Wales & ROI should get through – or at least get a play-off ?
And that leaves Scotland floundering again.
In a perverse way, if Scotland is the only non-qualifier from the Home Nations it might be a good thing – if it brings some much needed, critical MSM focus on the SFA’s failings.
And Iceland qualified !
What the hell is going on at Hampden ?
A lost generation of Scottish youngsters unable to cheer on their nation at a World Cup or Euros.
It’s not Strachan’s fault: it is a reflection of deep rooted, institutional problems at the SFA – going back decades…
Nah Chris Jack and Matt Lindsay will be too busy “penning” feel good pieces for the Sevco fans, Chris Jack instead of focuising on tonights game was too busy focusing on the winning streak continuong despite the fact it can’t be extended until next weekend
Next up, Warbo for Scotland!
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
D’oh !
Of course Scotland didn’t qualify…because of the lack of Rangers players in the squad.
And it’s all our fault anyway.
Failure to qualify for the Euros is a direct result of having Rangers relegated unfairly, and HMRC conducting a witch hunt on the club. Scotland needs a strong Rangers, blah blah blah…
The headlines write themselves in the SMSM…
Keef has an ideal opportunity to outdo himself for producing ill informed nonsense in the DR tomorrow.
tykebhoy 8th October 2015 at 6:29 pm # easyJambo 8th October 2015 at 4:56 pm #tykebhoy 8th October 2015 at 4:53 pm #—————————————–Good to see you get a name check in JJ’s latest blog. Just keep questioning him re his numbers and assumptions.Thanks but I am only able to question his figures due to sterling work by the likes of yourself and barcabhoy. It is becoming clear though that he is also operating a very clear censorship policy on what can be commented on and his own content seems to centre on hurling abuse with a few “facts and figures” harvested from other blogs/forums thrown in to make it seem constructive. As allyjambo pointed out at least hes awakening a few bears but I remain very suspicious of his motives for that.
____________________
I totally agree with you on his facts and figures – they don’t work out – and Easyjambo’s, and others’, figures are so much more accurate. Still, his motivation might be sound, but I can’t understand why he would include an attack on yourself in his blog, you are far from someone who could be described as, well, something I am not, yet he has used something I posted to support his own ideas. OK, you are not a Hearts supporter, so you are not perfect
I’ve no idea why people are exercised by JJ Sit on fence.
In terms of DCK hes been on his case so long (well before this blog existed) he likely knows how much spare change he has in his pockets.
Which as it turns out is none.
ianagain 8th October 2015 at 11:09 pm # I’ve no idea why people are exercised by JJ Sit on fence. In terms of DCK hes been on his case so long (well before this blog existed) he likely knows how much spare change he has in his pockets. Which as it turns out is none.
______________________
Exercise is long gone in my life
On the other hand, examining what people say about the ‘Rangers’ saga really gets me going
As I’ve said before, I think his message to the bears is sound, but his arithmetic isn’t! That doesn’t make him wrong, though, and I support his opinion on King and King’s supporters.
I do believe his message is too late, about four years too late, and there is nothing the bears can do to save their club, if it transpires it needs saving, because it is now too late to be saved by anyone other than a sugar daddy.
https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/are-the-new-board-so-bereft-of-funds-that-they-cannot-defend-greens-petition/
“In a previous blog I posited that the shyster board would run out of money this month. I made a case that should they aspire to meet payroll, they would have to access the v.a.t. escrow account, or raise a loan.”
This is a genuine question as I really have no idea.
What is a “v.a.t. escrow account”.
To my layman’s way of thinking that is just a random combination of words and letters which doesn’t actually mean anything but is superficially knowledgeable.
Apropos of nothing, I have never seen anyone who understands VAT, even in it’s most simple terms describe the tax as v.a.t.
Maybe it is down to it still being raw and I am hurting but next time WGS cuts down folks and fans for not really understanding the game I can help thinking I will be shouting out “If you are so smart how come we couldn’t beat Georgia???????”
StevieBC 8th October 2015 at 10:41 pm #D’oh !Of course Scotland didn’t qualify…because of the lack of Rangers players in the squad.And it’s all our fault anyway.Failure to qualify for the Euros is a direct result of having Rangers relegated unfairly, and HMRC conducting a witch hunt on the club. Scotland needs a strong Rangers, blah blah blah…
============================
I doubt it will be as explicit as that, but the inference of how a more ‘competitive’ top league would assist the national team will be made over the coming days, of that I’m sure. Of course, ‘competitive’ ideally means Rangers finishing top, and Celtic finishing second (but if in any way that doesn’t happen so much the better). The rest can scrap it out for third.
At times like this for the national side I sometimes despair. Not just for the lack of success, but the fall-out tends to see bitterness and pettiness rise to the surface in the media, clouded by individual club bias. Those who never wanted Strachan in the first place will now have a field day. There will no doubt be calls for Souness, ‘Walter’ or ‘big Eck’ to be installed as Manager.
Said it here before the Georgia game even kicked off – Strachan out. Pains me to say it, but I found myself after Poland scored and were hammering us actually hoping we would get soundly beaten. Hated myself for it, but thats where I find myself. Strachan was a boyhood hero – I watched him and his mates of that era (including of course McGhee, his No. 2) run rings round not just the best in Scotland, but the best in Europe. I thought it would always be that way!
I’ll not mention the team and squad selection, other than to say it was as always with Strachan predictable, unimaginative and poor. I’ll simply ask – 2 goalkeepers on the bench?! WTF? What does that say to the rest of the players in the squad that were left out. I haven’t worked out exactly who was left out – Shinnie being the token Aberdeen player obviously came to my attention. So, no I can’t be done with the man anymore – his arrogant comments after the Georgia game sums the nature of the guy up perfectly.
We will see what team he puts out against Gibraltar, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if its the same old, same old.
(Of course it doesn’t help that those of us that don’t give money to Sky don’t even get a highlights package to help keep us involved with Scotland. Difficult to remain interested full stop)
StevieBC 8th October 2015 at 10:07 pm #
‘..What the hell is going on at Hampden?’
____________
Connivance in cheating;
deception and bullying and threatening of the member clubs over a long period of time;
the signing of secret wee deals for a new club because, although new, it was brash and bold and vengeful enough to sell up and reduce Ibrox to rubble if it didn’t get its own way and thereby physically destroy all trace of the former club;
a climate of continuing distrust as guilty men wait to be exposed
an already low level of incompetence greatly exacerbated by all of the above
………need I go on?
This is why I am suspicious of JJ/SoF. I doubt he used escrow until after PMGB used it. In pointing out his errors on VAT calculations I joked about VAT and the previous ibrox entity (although not explicitly mentioning it penchant for not handing over VAT). Is he just harvesting snippets?
Allyjambo, as I have mentioned before on (T)SFM I did read the LSE share chat and very occasionally contributed (obviously not under this nome de plume). There were several obvious factions but the two most “vociferous” were one pro Kiung with the other pro the old board and therefore anti King. SoF was the most prolific poster in the latter category. We all know King is not good for Scottish football as it makes an even bigger mockery of its overall governance but I think SoF’s hatred of King goes beyond both the national and RIFC/TRFC governance.
In other news, or perhaps not, isn’t Jack Irvine rather quiet these days.
To be honest, I’m not really sure what difference a more competitive premier league is going to make for the Scotland team based on current and recent selections. It appears we’d rather select from the bottom of the EPL or Championship than from the top of the SPL.
The current squad features:
– 1 player from Aberdeen (the team that’s top of the SPL, does form count for nothing?)
– 4 from Celtic
– 0 from any other Scottish team
– 10 from the English Championship
More players from Hull City than the entirety of the Scottish Leagues excluding Celtic.
As Renton would have said “its a s***e state of affairs”.
I find it hard to believe that an all Scottish Premier Back 4 of, say, Shinnie – Reynolds – Anderson – Mulgrew would be any worse that last night’s back 4 comprising players from the bottom half of the EPL and the English Championship
N.B. I have no issue with the number of players selected from Celtic, it’s the lack of players selected from other Scottish team and the rather ordinary (or past it) players selected in their stead
For the solution suggested for FIFA ‘S issues by David Conn in the Guardian at (hopefully) replace FIFA with SFA.
http://gu.com/p
The author is well acquainted with what has happened in Scotland but has had to concentrate on Hillsborough enquiry. The SFA narrative is still there kept underground by legal issues like the provenance of the CF material and the upcoming court cases.
But these barriers will not hold forever and when they topple our SFA and SPFL will have to say why they failed to act on information provided or answer reasonable questions asked.
Neither will journalists sent the narrative or evidence be able to remain silent and if they don’t have either evidence or narrative they should be asking for it soon.
Corruption is part of the mind set of football and you cannot fix a problem with the mind that created it.
I struggle to find an equivalent “leader” to Kofi Annan as suggested by Conn to take Scottish football forward but surely in the wider ranks of football in Scotland there is someone? (and it does not have to be a male either or an Anne – but why not?).
JJ SoF….i agree he has a big downer on the man with the forked tongue, but I am not gonna hang him for that FFS! He may have his reasons, and they could be as simple as he, or someone close to him, has previously been burned by split tongue. Possibly even in the southern hemispphere. (Lets face it, there must be a lot of them around).
He may even be a placeman or have other reasons, but he is trying to engage with, and educate those who gleam their knowledge from the SMSM. He won’t be right 100% of the time, ( who can honestly say that they are 100% right?) but he is trying to open their eyes.
.It doesn’t matter, we all have our collective and individual reasons. As long as his motivation is to drive the crooks and charlatans from our game, and expose the truth, then I fail to see how that can be a fault. I am not so much making a defence for him, but he is entitled to a level playing field as much as anyone on here.
He doesn’t post on here tmk, but if he did, this would be the place to debate his analysis. Other than that, he should be challenged on his own site. Surely that would be the best way to add to the pool of knowledge amongst his readership, most of whom, I would hazard a guess, don’t visit the monitor…….(or at least wouldn’t admit to it).
If he is courteous and respectful in his defence, where’s the harm?.
Auldheid 9th October 2015 at 10:13 am # I struggle to find an equivalent “leader” to Kofi Annan as suggested by Conn to take Scottish football forward but surely in the wider ranks of football in Scotland there is someone? (and it does not have to be a male either or an Anne – but why not?).
===============
The link in your post didn’t work for me- try this- http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/oct/08/fifa-blatter-platini-reform-election
As for Kofi Annan’s name being mentioned in the context of cleaning up a corrupt organisation- is that a joke?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090701646.html
Maybe we’ll see Ogilvie’s name mentioned next.
I don’t quite follow the suggestion that success in Euro qualification is linked to how competitive the domestic league is. Are competitive Welsh, Northern Irish and Irish Republic domestic leagues linked to the success of their national teams?
try this for link to David Conn blog.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/oct/08/fifa-blatter-platini-reform-election
This another must read from same paper.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/oct/09/sepp-blatter-fifa-reform-football
External intervention is essential.
Neepheid
Cheers. Both blogs a must read.
Homunculus 8th October 2015 at 11:31 pm #https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/are-the-new-board-so-bereft-of-funds-that-they-cannot-defend-greens-petition/
“In a previous blog I posited that the shyster board would run out of money this month. I made a case that should they aspire to meet payroll, they would have to access the v.a.t. escrow account, or raise a loan.”
This is a genuine question as I really have no idea.
What is a “v.a.t. escrow account”.
To my layman’s way of thinking that is just a random combination of words and letters which doesn’t actually mean anything but is superficially knowledgeable.
Apropos of nothing, I have never seen anyone who understands VAT, even in it’s most simple terms describe the tax as v.a.t.
==============================
I would hazard a guess that the VAT escrow account is simply the account from which the quarterly VAT settlement DDR is taken, rather than the day to day operating account.
There must be some folk with knowledge of the internal accounting system of the Ibrox Franchise, and it is quite possible that there are separate accounts set up to ensure that PAYE and VAT settlements are not in default. It’s just a modern version of having different jars (or warchests) in the kitchen cupboard to accumulate cash to pay different bills
(v.a.t. should be V.A.T. or VAT, as it’s an abbreviation or acronym of a proper noun.)
The Cat NR1 9th October 2015 at 11:49 am # “…..it is quite possible that there are separate accounts set up to ensure that PAYE and VAT settlements are not in default. It’s just a modern version of having different jars (or warchests) in the kitchen cupboard to accumulate cash to pay different bills”=============================================
Dare I say that these might be biscuit tins?
Scottish Football needs an inquiring SFA at what may well be the start of a Kingmageddon©. You can’t say that you have not been warned.
I read a beautiful phrase which is perfectly apt for the SFA Andy the other ne’er do wells
“Hermeneutic of conspiracy” one for Mr Spiers I thnk.
The source was a fan of a team in Beunos Aries now in the Italian leagues…
I have already suggested that JJ may be very selective in what posts are aired but here are some comments he has made on comments he has passed moderation
Admittedly from a King supporter but hardly courteous to someone with a differing view that the situation may be worse or no better now even under the old board.
Gloatus Maximus’s sin was to point out the existence of sub judice. The offensive Alan Parker comments I highlighted on here a few days ago have only just been removed in the last 24 hours after they were highlighted by D Mhor
I felt unclean after visiting Merlin’s site so stopped doing so over 6 months ago. I’ve made the decision to not visit the JJ site again so I’ll leave it at this.
Corrupt official 9th October 2015 at 10:56 am #
JJ SoF….i agree he has a big downer on the man with the forked tongue, but I am not gonna hang him for that FFS! He may have his reasons, and they could be as simple as he, or someone close to him, has previously been burned by split tongue. Possibly even in the southern hemispphere. (Lets face it, there must be a lot of them around).
He may even be a placeman or have other reasons, but he is trying to engage with, and educate those who gleam their knowledge from the SMSM. He won’t be right 100% of the time, ( who can honestly say that they are 100% right?) but he is trying to open their eyes.
.It doesn’t matter, we all have our collective and individual reasons. As long as his motivation is to drive the crooks and charlatans from our game, and expose the truth, then I fail to see how that can be a fault. I am not so much making a defence for him, but he is entitled to a level playing field as much as anyone on here.
He doesn’t post on here tmk, but if he did, this would be the place to debate his analysis. Other than that, he should be challenged on his own site. Surely that would be the best way to add to the pool of knowledge amongst his readership, most of whom, I would hazard a guess, don’t visit the monitor…….(or at least wouldn’t admit to it).
If he is courteous and respectful in his defence, where’s the harm?.
——————-
Excellent summing up.
redlichtie 9th October 2015 at 11:57 am #The Cat NR1 9th October 2015 at 11:49 am # “…..it is quite possible that there are separate accounts set up to ensure that PAYE and VAT settlements are not in default. It’s just a modern version of having different jars (or warchests) in the kitchen cupboard to accumulate cash to pay different bills”=============================================
Dare I say that these might be biscuit tins? Scottish Football needs an inquiring SFA at what may well be the start of a Kingmageddon©. You can’t say that you have not been warned.
======================
Indeed, that would be have been more appropriate.
zerotolerance1903 9th October 2015 at 10:10 am #To be honest, I’m not really sure what difference a more competitive premier league is going to make for the Scotland team based on current and recent selections. It appears we’d rather select from the bottom of the EPL or Championship than from the top of the SPL. The current squad features: – 1 player from Aberdeen (the team that’s top of the SPL, does form count for nothing?) – 4 from Celtic – 0 from any other Scottish team – 10 from the English Championship More players from Hull City than the entirety of the Scottish Leagues excluding Celtic. As Renton would have said “its a s***e state of affairs”. I find it hard to believe that an all Scottish Premier Back 4 of, say, Shinnie – Reynolds – Anderson – Mulgrew would be any worse that last night’s back 4 comprising players from the bottom half of the EPL and the English Championship
N.B. I have no issue with the number of players selected from Celtic, it’s the lack of players selected from other Scottish team and the rather ordinary (or past it) players selected in their stead
========================
Martin and Whittaker haven’t set the world on fire with their defending in the EPL this season, although Martin has grabbed the headlines at the other end with his goal tally. I was surprised to see that both started, particularly as Martin became a father only a fortnight ago.
Dorrans is a tidy player though, and has a good range of passing that is much appreciated down in this part of the world. His clubmates Hoolahan and Brady both played for 90 minutes in Ireland’s win over Germany, so playing for a midtable EPL club is not necessarily a hindrance when it comes to international success.
Maybe the management team subscribe to a John Collins-esque view that Scottish domestic football does not provide adequate preparation for International (vice European) football?
I don’t think Strachan is the man to take us forward anymore. He flatters to deceive most of the time.
His seeming insistence on only picking English based players or players in Scotland if they play for Celtic, and then finding a way to squeeze them into the team, is ridiculous – hence we get the sight of a half fit Charlie Mulgrew at left back, or worse Stephen Whittaker, a right footed player, at left back, when Graeme Shinnie has been the best left back in Scotland for the past 2/3 years, and doesn’t get a sniff of action.
The problem is that no-one in the press is going to point out the above because it doesn’t sit with their ‘only two teams in Scotland’ mantra that has to be wheeled out again and again and again. To admit that ,actually, there are some decent players in the SPL who don’t play for Celtic is just a no-no….. and yet a squad, in the form of N Ireland, featuring 7 (7!) players currently plying their trade in the SPL, and not one of them for Celtic, has qualified in a fairly easy fashion, so the whole ‘Oh, our domestic game just isn’t strong enough’ is rubbish.
Then to compound that, the only Celtic player to actually show some blistering form in the past month or two doesn’t get anywhere near the team either?!? It’s always a ‘what if’ scenario, but I can’t imagine Griffiths missing most of the chances that we had last night – having said that, the counter argument to that is that Fletcher and Naismith were instrumental in influencing the game to bring about those chances, so who’s to say they would still have been brought about if Griffiths was on the field instead of one of them?
Quite apart from personnel choices, the mentality against teams has been ridiculous as well. It seems to take us at least a half to actually get going, and by that that time we’re normally already a goal down. Then the icing on the cake is that, having taken a half to get going, we aren’t able to concentrate fully for the 2nd 45!
I’ve no easy solutions, but the future certainly ain’t Smith, McLeish or Souness (whatever Chic Young might think). Park The Bus football is the last thing we need if we’re going to inspire kids to come and see the national side.
Wh’appen?
That group was always going to be a three-way struggle between Ireland, Poland and Scotland. The results that stuffed it up for us were: Poland beating Germany, Ireland beating Germany, our dismal performance in Georgia and the last-kick equaliser last night. Two of those were entirely outwith the control of Strachan and the team. No blame can be attached.
Scotland took 4pts off Ireland, came within a kick of taking 4pts off Poland and should have done better than 3pts from the Georgia games, granted. Thus far, Poland have conceded only 9 goals in qualifying – Scotland scored 4 of those (Germany managed 3). Ireland beat Germany – Scotland beat Ireland. It was a tough, tight group with wafer thin margins for error. Had we been drawn in a group with a side like Greece who basically collapsed (3pts from 9 games) then it would all have been Belfast-happy. But it wasn’t. Given how the team performed against Ireland and Poland, overall, apart from the last kick of the last game, there was an admirable durability. And to reiterate, Georgia away was bad – but Strachan can’t be blamed for Germany tripping up away in Warsaw and Dublin.
Apologies for the lack of activity, but we have been having some techy problems at SFM central – happily now resolved. After a weekend break, it will be full steam ahead next week with the content plan, and of course Perth is coming up the following week too.
Stuart Cosgrove can’t make the Perth meeting, but Jim Spence will try to be there. I think it will be less of a staged spectacle than a group get-together, but I think we may record some of proceedings as a podcast if attendees are agreeable.
CALL MY BLUFF
A VAT Escrow Account is…
1. A metaphor for ‘putting aside the VAT you’ve collected on behalf of HMRC and not spending it on running costs’
2. A loose use of language, but intending to convey the same meaning as no.1 above
3. A literal misunderstanding of how businesses collect VAT and pass it on to HMRC (as someone pointed out, further up the thread, you’re not obliged to keep the VAT money in a special bank account)
Good point about Northern Ireland. 7 Scottish Premiership players in their most recent squad. 2 more than in the Scotland squad. Go figure.
A VAT Escrow Account is…1. A metaphor for ‘putting aside the VAT you’ve collected on behalf of HMRC and not spending it on running costs’
2. A loose use of language, but intending to convey the same meaning as no.1 above
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Tbh that’a how I interpreted it.
I’m assuming that JJ is not a member of the same institute as Paul Murray (and myself).
rabtdog 9th October 2015
As you say there is no point about worrying about the fixtures you are no involved in.
Looking at the group the aim was surely beat both Gib and Georgia home and away, get a home win v Ireland and be happy with a draw away in Dublin. A points total of 16. Anything gained from the Poland and Germany is the bonus that might keep you in the hunt.
It is close margins but having got the bonus of a draw v Poland away, the Georgia game was key. Win that an we were on the up and ready to face Germany and then Poland.
To be honest the performance in Dublin was poor and that, for me, then made the Georgia game one that we needed to be firing on all cylinders. That performance was similarly poor. It is the eleven on the park that play the game but I do question the managers performance in terms of the team not being apparently ‘up for it’ on that night.
No shame in loosing to the world champs and despite losing with the last kick another 2-2 with Poland would have been acceptable to most at the start of the campaign.
On the above we may only have ended up with a point more that the maximum of 15 we can now achieve, but given the talent and coaching experience available we should be beating the teams in the pots lower than us.
As you say it may not have made a difference given the way other results go but the Georgia game ended up being the most important of the campaign and we failed miserably.
Like international footie players…
As a Scottish football international supporter, I have resided in the US for more than 5 years now – so am I eligible to ‘transfer’ and become an official Eagles supporter ?!
And my granny was – genuinely – born in Donegal – so what about the ROI ?
I know, it is painful now…and no doubt it will continue to be painful watching Scotland.
rabtdog 9th October 2015 at 2:58 pm #
Valid points all. It can well be said we did well to hang in till the almost bitter end.
My point is we managed all that almost despite Strachans influence. I personally think given the players that are available we could have done better. As a manager GS is a stubborn sod and has chosen to ignore in-form players, failed to pick players who were regularly playing for their respective teams over others that aren’t , played players outside their regular position rather than bring in a fresh face more experienced in that role and has demonstrated himself to be less than willing to play anyone who plays within Scotland with the exception of players from Celtic (and even then ignores some even when in blistering form). I think that’s wrong.
The SPFL player point especially can only damage the domestic game as players must now have a perception that they will have to leave Scotland to stand any chance of being capped for their country.
Ok, we don’t have a huge playing pool, but I don’t believe that Strachans chosen few are significantly better than many of the others available. Therefore, we must ensure we pick the best squad and team for each round of these qualifications, and especially that we at least pick 11 fully fit players who are experienced in their respective roles. None of our team are so far ahead of the others that they deserve a place despite not being 100% and none of our team are so sensational that they should be shoehorned into a strange position to the exclusion of a “specialist”.
That said, I don’t envy Strachan one bit! I guess arrogance is required to withstand all the opinions of those that haven’t been involved in football for 40 years.
tayred 9th October 2015
That said, I don’t envy Strachan one bit! I guess arrogance is required to withstand all the opinions of those that haven’t been involved in football for 40 years.
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A fair point but what I object to is the arrogance of sometimes dismissing people who have been involved in football for the last 40 years as amateur players and coaches, fans, reporters etc. You know… the folks that pay your wages. Many of these folks can be involved in other sports and have a fair degree of transferable knowledge.
You don’t have to have been involved in the game professionally to know which games are crucial.
For all I am decrying him I still think he is the best we have at the moment but I agree he needs to break out his mould if we are going to have a decent stab at the WC qualifiers.
Hearing people talk about VAT in a separate area ready to be forwarded to HMRC when due has got me thinking.
Would I be correct in saying that the next quarterly payment would be due to HMRC in December?
How much would currently be sitting in such an account/area/jam jar?
Would it be enough to cover one months salaries?
If they empty that money only to pay one months wages then they still have to find two months salaries even when that pot is empty. surely they would not be so stupid a second time around!
After all the standard response when RFC didn’t pay was that “it was Craig Whyte” that didn’t pay.
Every time I start to think about where future operating finance is going to come from when;
most of the properties are already secured against loans,
the only property remaining cannot be given as security until approved by Mike Ashley,
ownership of the main assets are currently in doubt due to court proceedings,
members of previous boards are due in court for fraud,
75% of all merchandising now goes to you know who,
current outstanding loans total over £9M
I always end up with the vision of a spider spinning out of control circling the plug hole!!!
What I will say about that vision is that the spider can usually fold in it’s legs, creating an air sack that means it doesn’t get flushed around the u-bend, and eventually it re-emerges more dishevelled than it was before. If this process is followed often enough fatigue eventually takes it’s toll and the spider simply expires!!!
We first had Craig Whyte – down once and reappeared dishevelled.
Charles Green – down twice and reappeared with onerous contracts attached.
Mike Ashley – down three times and now reappeared with virtually no merchandising profits.
Dave King – well you know the rest!!!
talk about the next holding company death on some of the less sweary TRFC sites. That is either risible or contemptible – indeed it may be both
I doubt Rangers are using VAT and PAYE as cashflow. Lightweight as Paul Murray is , he couldn’t afford to be a party to that practice. Stewart Robertson is well regarded and behaving in that manner would be professional death for him.
Rangers might be running short of cash, but stealing the governments money ( again) won’t be part of a survival plan.
Loans from shareholders is the only short term option for Rangers. I have previously written about why lending to RIFC is off the charts risky at this time, but that’s the dilemma for shareholders.
I don’t think for a minute that VAT/PAYE are being used to pay other bills. There are too many honest men on the board for that, and the board member who might be considered capable of such a course of action is absent most of the time. In fact King may be chairman, but he has nothing like total control of the boardroom. Various shareholder alliances could outvote King on any issue.
However the directors cannot be comfortable right now. Their options appear to be
Anyone putting their money in at this stage has to be able to kiss it sweet goodbye with an easy heart. I’m guessing that none of the directors are in that position.
I have been discounting insolvency for a while, but now I think that in reality it’s either Uncle Mike or insolvency. Even Uncle Mike will surely think twice before committing more millions given the current uncertainty, which looks likely to last for at least a couple of years unless a load of guilty pleas cut matters short in the High Court.
Insolvency is beginning to look like the best way out for all concerned. Otherwise someone will have to be found who is willing to put in £10 million every year for the foreseeable future.
The position of Stewart Robertson intrigues me. When appointed back in June, The Scotsman reported that he was “An investment manager by trade, he has been assisting Rangers in their financial department on a consultancy basis since King secured boardroom control from Ashley and his associates in March.”
Accordingly he must have been aware of the financial position and, I assume, been given assurances about things like ‘overinvestment’.
Where does he now stand in all this? If, as reported by PMB, he has recently laid out the sober reality to fellow directors will he stick around if such ‘overinvestment’ does not materialise? If any ‘investment’ does not materialise?
His business reputation may well take a sore hit if he finds himself captain of a sinking ship……he will look extremely gullible indeed if matters turn out different to what he was promised.
Scottish Football needs a regular club financial fitness test, monitored by an independent organisation – perhaps Deloittes could bid for that work?
PS Re the WGS debate and his arrogant behaviour to other stakeholders. IIRC you don’t need to have been a horse to become a jockey. As someone rightly pointed out many stakeholders have transferrable skills and knowledge. From what we have seen of the club and football authorities administration skills they sorely need such independent expertise.
Re PAYE.
Before non payment it would be likely that an approach would be made to HMRC for a deferral (for 6 months say).
Hector does have previous in this respect having agreed a deferral with Calum Melville 6 months prior to Dundee FC’s most recent administration (and with no security or personal guarantees).
Unlikely to be acceptable? Well maybe, but if your told there’s no way your getting paid if not…..
Would have to be run past the SPFL too…less of a problem I suspect.
Most unlikely but you never know….and money is going to have to come from somewhere IMO.
parttimearab 9th October 2015 at 8:05 pm
https://www.gov.uk/difficulties-paying-hmrc/overview
(If) They don’t think you can get your payments up to date HMRC won’t make an arrangement with you – they’ll expect you to pay your tax bill straight away.
If you don’t, HMRC will start ‘enforcement action’ to get the money from you.
Hector isn’t a RRM. Without getting too much into OCNC I don’t think he will want to be stung twice by an Ibrox entity. If DCK is still the Chairman then I think its even less likely as Hector has previous with him in the SARS investigations. I also think the no money now but maybe money later is thin ice, even ignoring the two/three previous observations, as liquidate and chase the directors is likely to be more lucrative.
Barcabhoy 9th October 2015 at 6:34 pm
Agreed, it would be madness and I would be amazed if the present incumbents were to contemplate it.
As far as I am concerned Craig Whyte was almost forced into it by McCoist and the team’s incompetence. He as much as said it, with the lack of European income he had to spend that money just to keep the business running.
He then tried to get rid of that debt via administration. Along with all of the other debt.
As you say, it is unlikely that the present board will try the same thing. For one thing they don’t actually own 85% of the business and as such have less of a financial motivation to do so.
Sale of assets or loans is really the only way for them to go. Whether they have anything worth selling, or anyone will lend them the money (and on what terms) is another story.
bfbpuzzled 9th October 2015 at 6:23 pm
Ignoring the obvious issues of the whole previous holding company / subsidiary set-up being bunkum, wavetower weren’t liquidated. How do they see the new structure and who will own / operate the next holding company.
I’m assuming they are working on the basis that RFC PLC will be liquidated but TRFC Ltd will survive. What entity will buy TRFC Ltd from RIFC PLC.
Isn’t TRFC into RIFC PLC for a considerable shilling? I think any liquidators would want a slice of that action.
http://www.toffs.com/retro-football-shirts/scottish-teams
Hot on the heels of Rangers* not being in Fifa 16. Just opened my latest e-mail from toffs and the list of retro gear from Scotlands biggest club seems to have an identity crisis. Looks like somebody playing in blue are now called Glasgow, and have been stripped of 4 stars.
* it seems that the club are having another identity crisis. hic!
tykebhoy 9th October 2015 at 8:22 pm #
I don’t think he will want to be stung twice by an Ibrox entity.
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Most likely your right but he was happy enough to get stung twice down Dens park way so a faint possibility remains.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/10/09/wide-boy-attitude-kills-scotland/
An article by Jim Spence about the decline of Scottish football.
Corrupt official 9th October 2015 at 8:39 pm #
Isn’t TRFC into RIFC PLC for a considerable shilling? I think any liquidators would want a slice of that action.
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Funny, but I was looking at that earlier today. RIFC previously advised that the inter-company balance was the amount provided (as a loan) from the funds RIFC raised at the IPO. I have not seen any evidence that those funds are secured on anything.
In 2013 TRFC showed an inter company debt to RIFC of £16.163M. RIFC also reported a loss of £332K for the year, which was matched by the £332K reported for IPO expenses.
In 2014 TRFC showed an inter company debt to RIFC of £15.647M. RIFC also reported a loss of £516K for the year. The difference between the debt figures between 2013 and 2014 was thus ….. you’ve guessed it ….. £516K
My view is that RIFC has little, if any, income of its own (it doesn’t provide separate accounts), but any shortfall in its operations are funded by TRFC, but offset against the inter company balance.
I will be interested to see if that approach is maintained when / if the annual accounts for 2015 are published.
I have a problem understanding how any proposed administration or liquidation would help the club. If there is a voluntary liquidation of RIFC the liquidators would obviously seek to have the “loan” called in. Given that TRFC has no spare cash, the only assets of value are Ibrox and the encumbered Auchenhowie, Edmiston House and the Albion Car Park. That wouldn’t help TRFC although a RRM could in theory buy Ibrox and gift it back to the club. However the TRFC debts to Ashley and the Three Bears plus the cash burn problems would remain.
If TRFC was put into administration to shelve debt, they have the problems of a potential 25 point penalty, the loss (redundancy) of key players and the loss of the encumbered assets, not to mention the risk of Ibrox being sold to the highest bidder. Given the court cases, the administration would have to be squeaky clean, and may be extended because of the uncertainties about ownership of assets.
I personally would come down on the balance of probability favouring the continuation of soft loans from RRM and the Rangers supporters groups. As a comparison, FOH have raised and loaned almost £3M to Hearts in the last 25/26 months and are committed to provide the same again and a little bit more over the next three and a half years. However, I do realise that Rangers need much more than Hearts’ level of funding to keep their heads above water. Whatever happens it is not going to be pretty, despite the optimism within their support about the improvements on the pitch.
Who’d want a gift of a football stadium with a £20m plus repair bill?.
easyJambo 9th October 2015 at 10:20 pm.
“Funny, but I was looking at that earlier today”
——————————————————————————————————-
Like you, I fail to see how an insolvency event will benefit the current bloo-room seat warmers, and if an event does take place, it will be because it has been forced upon them. Not in any way “controlled”. (Not by them anyway).
Likewise, Uncle Mick may also be on boggy ground if it transpires his securities are not worth the paper they are written on. It is very hard to imagine him ever being a “victim” though, and his “intangibles” may be his joker. I believe they were entitled to offer the I.P. , (but maybe not so much the property)….. With the kosher I.P?.,therein lies the key to third Rangers.
I have been considering if DCK has somehow an inside line onplod, and whether he may have even provided evidence….courtesy of the bloo room safe, that was “over-looked” when Pinsent Mason were plumping up their pillows, but again…..Hard to see how it benefits them.
As it stands, all I can see is it boils down to the “loans,”, if they will be available, with the accompanying gamble that a lifetime’s earnings could potentially disappear in a matter of months.
I think I would deffo need an inside line to roll the dice on that one.
Corrupt official 9th October 2015 at 11:08 pm #
‘…courtesy of the bloo room safe, .’
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Totally unconnected with your post, Corrupt, but thanks for reminding me tell BP that I PMd him days ago about an item of what might loosely be described as ‘office equipment’.
I’ll remind him now.
easyJambo 9th October 2015 at 10:20 pm
EDIT
“I personally would come down on the balance of probability favouring the continuation of soft loans from RRM and the Rangers supporters groups.”
__________________________________________________________________________
I too think it most likely that there will be some people desperate to see this current incarnation continue for their own misguided reasons.Collection tins being rattled and calls to rally round etc. Given Dave’s erhmm frustration (aye) with his inability to find an exchange on which to list his wares ; is there any way that we could be made aware of such financial support ? …accounts? Oh! be still my aching sides.
Big Pink 9th October 2015 at 3:15 pm #
‘…Apologies for the lack of activity, but we have been having some techy problems at SFM central –’
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Ah, then you may not have seen my PM of a few days ago! I should have added that there would be no delivery costs!
Incidentally, on another tack altogether, I got a PM today ( well, yesterday, but I only accessed it today) from a poster who, knowing of my intention to try to attend next Friday’s Edinburgh High Court business , suggested that I write to the head of Judicial Communications to ask about the possibility of being accepted as being ‘accredited’ by a ‘social media’ blog as ‘representing’ it , and therefore, perhaps, of being given ‘access privileges’ such as are afforded to the press, if there was any danger that the crowd of attenders would fill the public benches.
It’s an interesting suggestion, namely, that the Courts might, sooner or later, have to recognise (which, for all I know, they may already do!) that the dissemination of public information is no longer the preserve of the formal ‘Press’ or Television media, and that some social media blogs have a far greater readership/audience than many a newspaper .
A blog that is formally registered as a legal entity etc., etc’, is clearly different from those that are not.
It might very well be worth pursuing the idea ( not in respect of me personally, of course, although it would be nice to know that I’ll get into one of the two or three public benches next Friday).
And how damned annoying it is that the intriguing question of CG’s legal fees is to be dealt with across the road on the same morning! But ,if the indictment hearing only lasts a half-hour or so, or if I don’t get in to that hearing,I’ll nip across the road and catch some at least of those proceedings.
I need my day in Court!
John C
On the matter of office equipment, I read your PM. Thanks for the offer, but I guess that transport would be a big problem. Maybe we can chat at Perth about that.
On the matter of accreditation for the blog for court attendance purposes, I am not sure of the protocols. Certainly there is public access in most cases anyway, but I don’t know whether formal accreditation is required in normal circumstances, or a press card is sufficient. I plan to speak to Paul Holleran about press creds, but anonymity is usually a sticking point on that front.
News and information gathering of that nature is something that we ought to be taking on as a routine part of our business. Again, I hope to have some information on that front at Perth. As articulate as our forum can be, I think an easier exchange of ideas will be possible at McDiarmid Park in two weeks.
I hope to return from there chockfull of ideas – and energised.
I suggest we get regular health checks on JC for RSI.
John this is going to be a long one.
You in training yet?
Big Pink 10th October 2015 at 12:30 am #
‘..I think an easier exchange of ideas will be possible at McDiarmid Park in two weeks.’
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Yes, indeed. The Symposium will be a gaseous joy and a joyous gas!