The Real Battle Begins?

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The increasing attacks on social media by the main stream press, fuelled in some respect by David Murray’s vague threats of litigation against bloggers, has brought into sharp focus the challenges facing the Blogosphere. It also brings into even sharper focus the prescience of Stuart Cosgrove’s assertion that this summer’s ‘epistemological break’  had begun to marginalize the Scottish sporting wing of the MSM.

The reality of that assertion is embedded in the misreporting of the FTT decision as a victory for RFC, falsely alleging that those who operated the EBT scheme had been exonerated, that RFC had ‘done nothing wrong’, and consequently accusing ‘vindictive anti-Rangers bloggers’ of playing a part in the downfall of that once great Scottish institution. It is also evident in Tom English’s rather bitter and one-dimensional anti-RTC polemic today in the Scotland on Sunday. Had it been entitled “Self Preservation”, it may have rung a few more truth bells.

I am not of the belief that the MSM is an instinctively pro-Rangers estate, but I do think that their reportage of the FTT is more geared towards discrediting the newly emergent forces in the social media area than it is towards rehabilitating the public image of RFC or David Murray.

However despite the contempt in which many people here hold the MSM and Murray, English does have a point that we would be foolish to ignore. No-one can deny that we do have a duty to ensure that we are responsible in how we present ourselves to the public. Now that our (and others’) success as a real and creative alternative has spurred the MSM into action, we are subject to greater scrutiny than at any time in the past. Our view is that we have to be pro-actively engaged in setting a standard for ourselves that is above those that the MSM have set for themselves.

We have on TSFM an audience exponentially greater than the number of posts. That presents us with a great opportunity to get our message across, but it also burdens us with an increased responsibility not to fall into the trap which has besought the Succulent Lamb Brigade.

We are a very different animal from RTC. RTC him or herself had information and insight to bring to the table that the administrators of this site do not. The founder and former admin of TSFM had the idea that the talent available from posters on the RTC – not just RTC himself – should continue to have a forum in a post-RTC world, and that those talents could be used to challenge the myths regularly represented as facts by lazy journalists in the MSM.

We have at our disposal on this blog forensic analysis of legal, media and corporate matters. We have an abundance of creative minds, all passionate about the game of football AS WELL AS a partisan love for their chosen club. With all that talent and expertise, we can make an impact on the agenda by challenging the misinformation and substandard journalism of the MSM, and our finest moments are when we do that. We lose authority and influence when the debate is impeded by bald accusation or innuendo backed up with little more than an historical view of our country.

Our biggest impact (and largest audience) is to be found when when our experts have collectively torn apart those myths presented as truths by the MSM, and when we have asked the questions that the MSM either can’t or won’t ask or answer. Those are the things that have driven the traffic to this site, and many of the emails we get congratulate us on that.

Our credibility plummets though when we go down the partisan path. We also get literally hundreds of emails from fans who ask that we cut down on the comments of those who are merely venting outrage at how they see the game being mismanaged (mainly so they can access the important stuff more quickly), and from fans who are just fed up with the constant name-calling – almost exclusively aimed at Ally McCoist and other Rangers figures.

If we claim to be an intellectual and journalistic rung or two above the likes of the Red Tops (not to mention to be decent and respectful of others), we need to refrain from the name calling and accusatory culture. We can ask questions, put items for debate on the public agenda, point out apparent irregularities and anomalies. In rushing to judgement of others from the comfort of the glow of our own laptop screens, we are guilty of the same lazy journalism we see in others. Name calling (all good fun of course on a fan site) is just a lazy thought process and as English says, comes across as “nasty”.

We never saw RTC as a fan-site. The original administrator of this blog never saw TSFM as one either, and nor do we. In order to succeed properly, we need sensible fans of ALL clubs to be comfortable and feel secure in our midst. Of course we are not breaking any laws, but can anyone honestly say that we have evolved into a welcoming place for Rangers fans?

TSFM is not about hounding any one club out of existence or into shame or infamy. In the Rangers saga we have sought to ensure that the football authorities play fair with everyone and stick to their own rules. One well kent RTC contributor, and no friend of Rangers, often said that if the FTT found in favour of Rangers we should move along and accept it. Well they did find in favour of Rangers in the majority of cases. That may not suit many of us, but we are the Scottish Football Monitor, not a Judicial Watchdog. We can say why we disagree with the decision, but criticism of the process through which the decision was arrived at is beyond our purview.

Since the accusation is often made in the MSM, we should state, unequivocally and unreservedly, that we are NOT anti-Rangers. Their fans face the same issues as the rest of us and they are welcome here. We are however, equally unequivocally against the gravy train journalism of the Scottish Football Wing of the MSM (with one or two honourable exceptions).

If the Anti-Blogateers in the press are correct, the popularity of the TSFM will recede as the Rangers Tax case reverts to the back pages before disappearing for good. However I do not believe that they are correct. I don’t believe that Scottish football fans are only motivated by either hatred – or even dislike – of one club. I believe we are more concerned with the game itself than the pot-stirrers in the MSM would have us believe, because we understand the interdependence of football clubs.

But we also understand that the people who run football clubs do not always run their clubs for the benefit of the fans. In the business world, that may not be out of the ordinary, since businesses are run for the benefit of shareholders.
However football reserves for itself a special place in the hearts of people in this country. If the people who run football clubs want to retain that favourable status, they have to be accountable to the fans.

The difficulty in holding them to account though, is that the cosy relationship cultivated between club directors, managers and players and the press renders the access to information a closed shop, and the information itself is heavily filtered and spun.

As long as we keep asking questions in response to the fruit of that cosy relationship, we will be providing people with an alternative angle and viewpoint, allowing them to come to their own conclusions, and not the one the MSM post-presser huddle delivers to us wrapped up in a bow.

For the SFM specifically, we believe that to have any influence, we need to enable the expertise at our disposal to flourish. It is also vital to our project that Rangers fans are included in our dialogue. We just can’t call ourselves the Scottish Football Monitor if they are largely excluded from participation because they feel they are being treated disrespectfully.

We can’t tolerate the accusations and name calling. We need to stick to what we have done best; factual analysis, conjecture based on known facts and on-line discourse leading to searching questions being asked.

One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities. Being truly representative of fans will make that easier to achieve.

The MSM will continue to attack the social media outlets. In one way you can understand it. Their jobs are at stake. The business model of the print media in particular has changed massively over the last five years, manifesting itself mainly in increasingly under-resourced newsrooms. Consequently it is besought by increasingly unreliable and under-researched journalism, even to the point where much of it is no longer journalism at all.

By comparison the Blogosphere has access to greater human and time resources, is able to react to unfolding events in real time, and crucially (because it has been eschewed instead of embraced by print media proprietors) has been occupied by ordinary folk with little or no vested interest.

We are still in position to provide a service in our small niche of the on-line world. We have rights to publish and speak freely about our passion, but we also have to live up to the attendant responsibilities, and thus the appeal for discretion on posting comments.

Where Tom English got it completely wrong (in the uniquely ironic way the MSM have about them), is that his industry has mistaken the rights others have earned for them as entitlement, and ignored almost completely the responsibility they had to act on behalf of those who pay their wages.

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About Trisidium

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,018 thoughts on “The Real Battle Begins?”


  1. Can “The SPL” actually just change it’s basic structure.

    I thought The SPL was the members, the teams in it. So in order to change anything they would have to vote on it and agree that new structure.

    That would be the same teams who voted that Rangers could not be forced into the SPL not that long ago. Do people think that has changed significantly, or that the supporters of those clubs would feel any differently than a few months ago.


  2. The Rangers fans singing “there will be no Tartan Army in Brazil “.Shows how much they care about Scottish Football and yet we have a Football Authority ignoring their own rules to accommodate them and all and sundry telling us how much we all need them . No hypocrisy there then .


  3. Danish, hopefully this Edinburgh Derby is a cracker, we have seen some fantastic games this season already.


  5. The English/Stokes stuff has been removed. Of course I have a view on this, but we are not a Celtic site so this is not the place for me to air those views. If we are unable to have a civil conversation about matters such as these then we won’t discuss them.
    If anyone has an issue with removal of posts, please contact us directly, but please do not add to the OT stuff on the blog already.


  6. What’s the chances of Ticketus declaring themselves as a creditor at the meeting this week?


  7. Dave B says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 18:19(Edit)

    What’s the chances of Ticketus declaring themselves as a creditor at the meeting this week?
    _______________________________________________________________________

    There’s always a silver lining. If you’d told me that I’d be happy to see Ticketus name emerging in a thread again, I’d have had you sectioned :mrgreen:


  8. Charlie giving his views on league reconstruction today ! 🙄

    This sentence caught my eye and maybe it betrays his real intention / negotiating position wrt the SPL ?

    “…I hear comments that people don’t what Rangers here, well I can make it easy people – we don’t want to be back with the SPL people while this continued persecution of the club for title stripping is going on…”

    http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/2841-green-spl-is-busted-flush

    [SFM – Stevie, this got trapped in the spam folder – most of the links posted from RFC sites appear to e heading that way recently. No idea why, but that’s the reason for the delay]


  9. Lost prior posting – due to including link to TRFC website for extract below?

    Charlie gave his views on league reconstruction today! 🙄

    The sentence below seemed to betray his real intention / negotiating position, wrt to a possible return to the SPL?

    “…I hear comments that people don’t what Rangers here, well I can make it easy people – we don’t want to be back with the SPL people while this continued persecution of the club for title stripping is going on…”

    (TRFC homepage.)


  10. We have Goerge Osbourne on the news making statements such as “well-off people would “pay their fair share”. We have more austerity measures to come and more cut back of public services. Starbucks are getting slated and have taken to review their policy on the tax avoidance. Here in Scotland we have the MSM and Ranger fans sticking up for extremely wealthy footballers and those involved such as SDM being told that they are “Not Guilty” of tax evasion. They should have been slaughtered in the press, beggers belief really. I shall let you all fill in the rest of this story.


  11. I see the tiresome Adam is back from the land of no Internet and pedalling nonsense (on paul mcconville’s blog) about Sevco somehow still being the same club. This time he cites precedents in Fiorentina and Leeds conveniently forgetting that both those cases are in different jurisdictions and therefore would have no relevance (in any court of law (he might as well as cite Chinese or US law for all the relevance it provides).


  12. Let’s imagine a guy is up in court charged with carrying an offensive weapon. He was caught with a kitchen knife in his coat in a pub in the city centre on a Friday night. In court the judge asks the Fiscal “is a kitchen knife an offensive weapon?” The Fiscal replies no. He then goes on to explain that, whilst the knife in itself is not an offensive weapon, by carrying it in the manner that accused did it transformed it into one. The judge decides that as the Fiscal had said it wasn’t an offensive weapon then the accused cannot, on this occasion, be guilty of carrying such a weapon.

    Would the press accept this and praise the judge for his commonsense? Well you know the answer to that.

    Another day, another situation, a judge asks “are trusts a sham?” Again the answer comes back no, but when used in the context they have been then they become so. The judge rules that as the answer was no then the trusts must be ok.

    The press cannot praise the judge enough.

    OK the knife example might be extreme but you see where I’m going with this. If you want to find someone innocent then you will.


  13. corsicacharity says: Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 20:31

    apologies – damn phone – i’ll try this agaon

    this has been troubling me for some time – how can the accident of which jurisdiction it operates in affect the continuity of a football club thats gone bust?

    It’s surely the same club or a new club (as you wish) regardless of its geographical location!

    Ps – re Adam – at least he has the courage to engage and that should be acknowledged


  14. parttimearab says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 20:51

    corsicacharity says: Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 20:31

    apologies – damn phone – i’ll try this agaon

    this has been troubling me for some time – how can the accident of which jurisdiction it operates in affect the continuity of a football club thats gone bust?

    It’s surely the same club or a new club (as you wish) regardless of its geographical location!

    Ps – re Adam – at least he has the courage to engage and that should be acknowledged
    =========================================================================

    Unfortunately, RTC archive is not visible just now.

    However, I don’t think that Adam has ever been courageous. Condescending, yes.


  16. TSFM says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 18:21
    Dave B says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 18:19(Edit)

    What’s the chances of Ticketus declaring themselves as a creditor at the meeting this week?
    _______________________________________________________________________

    There’s always a silver lining. If you’d told me that I’d be happy to see Ticketus name emerging in a thread again, I’d have had you sectioned
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    TSFM

    You are of course entitled to your view which I respect

    I believe the Ticketus /Whyte./D&P/Green issue has some way to run before it dies a natural death
    Time will tell
    One of the attractions of the RTC and TSFM blogs is that it offers many people a unique opportunity to combine their interests in football and their expertise outside football

    The takeover/administration / liquidation of RFC and formation of Newco is the vehicle stimulating this interest
    Many posts analyse issues, bringing news and giving genuine education to readers

    Until it runs out of steam these non football issues will continue to attract interest from a wide range of professionals
    The ability to sustain interest on any blog is the traction gained when someone raises an issue they think is worth pursuing
    Or put another way
    The reader will decide by ignoring any subject he isn`t interested in
    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    As for Ticketus and the £40m ST contract they have with RFC(IL)

    I will be astounded if they declare themselves Creditors of RFC on 3 Dec


  17. TSFM says:
    Saturday, December 1, 2012 at 20:55
    31 23 Rate This
    I can’t help thinking that many of the doomsayers (with respect to the Rangers IPO) are indulging in as much wishful thinking as those who talk it up.

    My own sources, who I believe are utterly reliable and have no axe to grind, have been telling me for weeks that Rangers do not have cash-flow problems, and that CG still has around £7m in the bank.

    ———————————————————————

    jumping back to yesterday – sorry, not been paying much attention lately

    I’d be very surprised if there was £7M in the bank – at this moment in time

    we know they have brought in about £9m (after vat) in ST sales and maybe 100-150k per game on top of that

    So, at most, they have £10M brought in this season

    However, excluding wages, we know it cost about £1M a MONTH (just over) to keep RFC running (going by previous years accounts)

    Chuckles has said playing staff wages are down to 7M a year – so over 500k a month – and then there is the other staff (i don’t recall hearing of mass redundancies when everyone tupe’d over to sevco) – lets be conservative and call it 100k a month

    So, we have about 1.6M a month in costs – unless you can show me a significant amount of cost cutting in the new sevco from old rangers

    So, that is £8M in costs since July

    Then, there are the FOOTBALL CREDITORS that were supposed to be paid – £3M i think was the amount owed. And chuckles has lied to us in saying they are all paid…….or maybe will be paid…..or might be paid….hmmm but, if they are then that’s another £3M out of the pot

    then there is the templeton fee – another 500k

    So, where are we…..11.5M out in 5 months

    OK, lets assume that the old cost – over £1M a month – to run Rangers/Ibrox/Murray park is removed

    then we are still looking at costs of £6.5M

    Starting to look like squeaky bum time on the finances

    Now, of course, his consortium may have put more money in and they may have £7M in the biscuit tin to keep the big house open – and that will see them to the end of the season, no worries…….however, at some point they are going to want their money back

    so, unless Sevco start turning profits, then the only way to get it back is through the share floatation.

    Whichever way you slice it, running Rangers/sevco costs more than it brings in….even with the current playing squad. As soon as the consortium take their return (and the longer they wait for it, the more it will cost SOMEONE) then the club is ontae plums

    unlikely to be days, weeks or months, but it certainly won’t be years before they are looking for another handout.


  18. The question of how much money bankable by the various tentacles of Pretendgers in its many guises is kind of by the bye if its been “loaned or borrowed” dontcha all think.
    IE wheres the P&L folks.
    On a similar note 2 weeks and 5 days late on the “share IPO” joke thing.


  19. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO ADAM IS!!!


  20. parttimearab on Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 20:51

    The jurisdiction matters because we are dealing with company law which varies from country to country, or jurisdiction to jurisdiction if you like. We are also dealing with football rules and regulations of course, which also vary from country to country (and, in some countries, from club to club) albeit within a commonality prescribed by FIFA and UEFA.

    As someone later said, Adam is just back to being condescending and I would add trolling. The judicious usage of irrelevant facts does not build or support a case. Despite Adam’s nonsensical arguments, Rangers are still dead and Sevco are still not Rangers. It is really simple, RFC was formed as an unincorporated association, it incorporated as a limited liability company and eventually became a plc. Then it died. There is no club-company separation…FACT as Adam might say.

    Adam is just the latest in a long line of delusional people desperately clinging onto any piece of flotsam on the high seas in the hope that someone might save them. A bit like the TV programme “Lost” really.


  21. http://videocelts.com/2012/12/blogs/green-attacks-spl-with-busted-flush-claim

    Posted on Sunday, 2nd December 2012 by Joe McHugh
    Charles Green has launched another attack on the SPL claiming that it’s a busted flush.
    Rather than get his share prospectus published in time for a pre-Christmas AIM listing the Sevco chairman has again been running down the SPL that he tried to talk his way into in July.
    Green has escaped any censure from the SFA for his continued criticism of the SPL. Despite failing to deliver on over a dozen promises made since appearing at Ibrox in May the former Sheffield United chief believes that he has the solutions that Scottish football has been waiting for.
    As ever with Green he had to bring Celtic into the discussion despite having no contact with the SPL champions.
    “I think the whole aspect of reconstruction needs a long and hard look and maybe one of the things that people ought to consider is bringing someone from outside in to look at it,” Green suggested.
    “When I see what’s ‘appening up ‘ere there still seem to be lots of agendas. I hear comments that people don’t what Rangers ‘ere, well I can make it easy people – we don’t want to be back with the SPL people while this continued persecution of the club for title stripping is going on.
    “All of the things that has put the game into the terrible state it’s in need to be put behind us and we can move forward.
    “When you look at some of the attendances it’s definitely not working.
    “And this is not about Rangers should be in SPL 1 or not – the SPL is a busted flush. People are sick of seeing clubs playing each other four times a season and the season finished by December because only two clubs can win it.
    “It needs a long ‘ard look and maybe Doncaster and Longmuir need to knock their ‘eads together and get some real sense on the table and come up with a model that is best for Scottish football.
    “It’s not about what’s best for Peter Lawwell and Celtic or what’s best for Rangers or Charles Green it’s about what’s best for the game as a whole.
    “Someone needs to get a hold of this and deal with it now because it could all end in terms.
    “I’m not sure SFL clubs will rush to join the SPL. There is a big sense of injustice about how they were being told what to over where Rangers should go and we all saw the outcome of that.
    “They were told to put Rangers in the First Division and quite rightly the SFL clubs didn’t listen and puts us in the Third Division and we are happy to be there.”


  22. jean7brodie says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:21
    0 0 Rate This
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO ADAM IS!!!
    —————————————————————————————————————-
    J7B,
    Thats a whole big bang theory versus God creation discussion in that one point! As it veers near religion I’ll keep away from commenting further….

    As a wise man once said, I,ll get ma coat…..ho di ho 😉


  23. jean7brodie says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:21
    1 0 Rate This
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO ADAM
    IS!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Adam was a regular poster in the early days of RTC and up until about January. He conducted a robust counterpoint to a lot of the forensic work put in on the site, virtually single-handed and usually outnumbered. What he did most of all though, was to focus the minds of RTC posters and to help sharpen various thoughts and theories. He could be condescending and occasionally snide. He was also the author of “Wow just wow!”
    But RTC would not have been what it was without his input. And I don’t think things would have moved on so quickly without the focus he brought.


  24. jean7brodie says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:21
    0 0 Rate This
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO ADAM IS!!!
    ————————————————————
    Adam was a Rangers fan and poster on RTC for quite a while. He was hugely indulged by RTC and one or two others on the basis that he seemed quite reasonable and realistic and claimed to have inside info from Ibrox (wonder how those accounts are getting on 🙂 ). Reality is he was a troll – plain and simple – who would start with an innocuous enough point then twist people’s replies so that the blog became sidetracked. I assume that Paul McConville has given him time of day because of the “reasonable” factor even though he’s talking Colin Nish (copyright duly acknowledged from earlier).


  25. dunnman says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:35

    Lord Wobbly says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:40

    Thanks to you both for illumination!!! Sorry Dunnman, just exasperation and prayers!


  26. corsicacharity says: Sunday, December 2, 2012

    My point is that inconsistencies in approach amongst different UEFA associations creates ambiguity as to the continuity liqiidated clubs.
    With no clear lead from UEFA is it any wonder we ended up with the SFA/SPL/SFL shambles on this issue?

    Re Adam as i assume Paul had invited him to post a blog it hardly counts as trolling


  27. corsicacharity says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:47
    Thanks too sir!! Very sorry to show my ignorance but don’t know his moniker.


  29. The ‘The Rangers’ fans can claim to be the same club if they want as there is no law against it but unfortunately that doesn’t make them right.

    Let’s start at the beginning; if they are the same club why are they called something, however so slightly, different?
    If the club is a separate entity from the company then what was the name of the holding company?
    The fans who had shares in the previous club were sure they had shares in a football club so were they conned or indeed duped?
    When Charles Green stated back in May that liquidation meant the end of the history why did he say that?
    What “Holding Company” will the new shares be listed in?
    Why would you buy shares in a “Holding Company” when the seller of the shares could pocket the money, fold this company and pull the exact same stunt again?

    As I said above the ‘The Rangers’ fans can gather in large numbers and claim to be the same club but if the same number of people gathered and screamed that the world was flat I think we would all laugh at them.

    Ultimately the questions asked above, if given rational answers, would dictate that they are not the same club however the final arbiters of this will be the SFA which takes us conveniently back to the five way agreement.

    Which leads me to a final question; surely the powers that run Scottish football wouldn’t make up rules for the benefit of one club new or otherwise?


  30. TSFM says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 18:21

    Dave B says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 18:19(Edit)

    What’s the chances of Ticketus declaring themselves as a creditor at the meeting this week?
    _______________________________________________________________________

    There’s always a silver lining. If you’d told me that I’d be happy to see Ticketus name emerging in a thread again, I’d have had you sectioned
    =========================================================================

    martybhoy says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:49

    If anybody of sane mind thinks that Ticketus will present themselves as Creditors tomorrow…Can I suggest you start posting on intellectually challenged blogs such as McMurdo and leave us all to it on here?
    =========================================================================

    Don’t really think that sectioning or insanity references are helpful.


  31. easyJambo says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 10:56

    ecobhoy says: Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 09:47

    The FTT, from memory, stated that Rangers hadn’t paid any Corporation Tax for the period under investigation but tbh I haven’t a clue about other Scottish football clubs, including Celtic.
    =======================================
    In their recent accounts Celtic reported as follows:

    TAXATION PROVISION
    No provision for corporation tax is required in respect of the year ended 30 June 2012. The provisional tax computation for accounts purposes provides tax losses carried forward of approximately £33m (2011: £27m) and an available capital allowance pool of approximately
    £13.99m (2011: £14.55m).

    The value of the deferred taxation not reflected in the financial statements of the Group was £8.42m (2011: £6.90m) which will be recovered to the extent of future taxable profits of the Group.

    —————————————————-
    That is the same process adopted by other clubs, e.g Hearts have accumulated £16.2M of losses that they can set against future corporation tax (in the unlikely event that they will ever be profitable). I think you can use something like the previous 5 years losses to set against tax.
    ===========================================================

    Corporation tax losses are carried forward indefinately and are set against the first available profits.

    ecobhoy – the Corporation Tax losses incurred by RFC(IL) do not transfer across to Sevco because it was the acquisition by them of the trade and assets of Oldco.


  32. Chatter on RM is that James Traynor has resigned from DR, (which is believable), and that he is going to work for TRFC, (which is less believable!).

    Can anyone add anything to this, or is it just more disinformation?


  33. justhatered: How can you argue with logic like Charles Greens? Remember after he said that the history would be flushed down the bog, well he was right, except he then stated: “To make it crystal clear, the new owners PURCHASED all the business and assets of Rangers, including titles and trophies”.
    See, they would have been flushed, but Chuckles “purchased them”.
    History for sale?
    Only in Scotland.


  35. Stevie BC: Unsure if this is true, but posters on Celtic Rumours and KDS were discussing this on Friday and were suggesting that Monday (tomorrow), would be his last for the Record.


  37. justshatered says: Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:10
    however the final arbiters of this will be the SFA
    ——————————————————————-
    a subject on which, if i’m not mistaken, the Sfa have been wholly silent

    clarity on this subject from the national and european governing bodies is long overdue
    after all, given the state of club finances in scotland, a number of clubs could fibd themselves in this position


  38. StevieBC says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:16(Edit)

    Chatter on RM is that James Traynor has resigned from DR, (which is believable), and that he is going to work for TRFC, (which is less believable!).

    Can anyone add anything to this, or is it just more disinformation?
    ____________________________________________________________________

    Nothing for certain, but if he has “resigned” from the DR he will have been pushed. He has been looking forward to retirement and getting out of an industry that he knows is in terminal decline due to its failed business model. If he was offered an early pension package, he’d be gone yesterday.

    There are those in the MSM who regard his bizarre behaviour of late as a device to have the DR come to the early retirement table. That much is fact, but the rest of it is conjecture on my part.

    Traynor is – or was – a Celtic fan in his youth. His defence of Rangers is motivated by a loyalty to Murray and not a love of the institution. The Rangers of Murray would have been a possible twilight career move, but the CG Rangers, I would seriously doubt.


  39. parttimearab on Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:53
    1 0 Rate This
    corsicacharity says: Sunday, December 2, 2012

    My point is that inconsistencies in approach amongst different UEFA associations creates ambiguity as to the continuity liqiidated clubs.
    With no clear lead from UEFA is it any wonder we ended up with the SFA/SPL/SFL shambles on this issue?

    Re Adam as i assume Paul had invited him to post a blog it hardly counts as trolling

    *******
    UEFA will not and cannot get involved because the liquidation of a football club is a matter for the legal system of each relevant state. UEFA has absolutely no legal powers to intervene within company legislation in Scotland or any other country nor with individual FAs. It is a trade body if you like which will only admit members and allow them to participate in its tournaments if they abide by its rules. So…

    UEFA rules state that to participate in its competitions, a club must produce three years of accounts.
    This requirement is now included within SFA rules under UEFA licencing.

    That we ended up with a shambles has nothing to do with UEFA and everything to do with one or more of the following:

    1. The football authorities (SFA, SPL, SFL) were too scared to deal with it;
    2. The football authorities (SFA, SPL, SFL) were too incompetent to deal with it;
    3. The football authorities (SFA, SPL, SFL) were too compromised to deal with it;
    4. The football authorities (SFA, SPL, SFL) were too biased to deal with it.

    All they had to do was apply the rules WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOUR, they failed (for whatever reason). Aided and abetted by the media. Aided and abetted by the administrators. The jury is still out on whether others were guilty of aiding and abetting (eg, Lords Nimmo Smith & Hodge).

    Sevco were shoehorned in to keep the peepul happy and pretend that RFC were still alive however the law (as opposed to SFA regulations) is very clear; the legal entity that was RFC is dead. If anyone is stupid enough to believe that a football club is somehow distinct from its legal entity then they are as deluded as those who thought the earth was flat or the Pope infallible and neither you nor I will ever convince them otherwise. I say let the fools be parted from their money…


  40. I have to laugh at the prediction that Traynor is off to work for Rangers.
    What do you think he’s being doing since long before he gulped down that succulent lamb?
    The intriguing thing, though, is that he’s not always been a Rangers poodle – but he HAS always been a Murray poodle.
    My spidey senses tingled when his wee lackey Keef Jackson was ordered to describe Whyte as a “billionaire”.
    And Traynor’s recent slaverings on behalf of Murray have been obseqious to a level that has bordered on embarrassing.
    Conclusion: If Traynor is being invited on board at Ibrox, it is in order to pave the way for the return of the Prodigal Minty.
    But was that the plan all along?
    Answers on a postcard to the Takeover Panel.


  42. Personally, I don’t mind conceding that the current incarnation of RFC is essentially the same club founded in the 19th century. You can bandy around all the legalese you like, and assert football by-laws as precedent, but the local, European and international authorities have absolute dominion over this, and will always suit themselves. The way I see it, the ownership of a club is a golden ticket, which passes from host to host with the assent of the football authorities. They had their chance to expel the club, and retire the franchise, but chose not to. In my view, they chose poorly.

    This does, in effect, mean that we have a franchise system, and that a club can only cease with their say so. Until the fans take control, the blazers remain in charge, and supporters will get what they are given. The paucity of professional integrity at Hampden not only thrives, but actually depends upon age-old bitter enmities.

    If this old Rangers FC really is guilty of crimes against football, then push for punishment as such. A new club gets to wipe the slate clean.


  43. justshatered says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:10
    ………………………………………………………

    You can also add to that list…

    If they were the same club…why didn’t they start this season with a points penalty for being in Administration?


  44. TSFM says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:53
    ‘…Traynor is – or was – a Celtic fan in his youth. ..’
    —
    The whatever-the-hell -star-trek programme it was, had a line to the effect that something ‘does not compute’.

    With all due respect, there is absolutely no way that a genuine Celtic supporter can cease to be a Celtic supporter later in life.( Or that an Arbroath or Clyde or any other club supporter can cease to be a supporter of their club).

    This is not to say that a ‘genuine’ supporter should not criticise his own club, or, indeed, even challenge it ( as. perhaps, and as an example, the Green Brigade does in relation to Celtic FC)

    But there is, in my opinion, and I believe that the fans of any other club in Scotland would agree, no way that any guy who supported Celtic in his youth would have become a Murray creature.

    Traynor, if he ever was a Celtic supporter-or even a supporter of fairness and integrity in sport-
    has so sold the jersey as to merit nothing but contempt.

    He has been nothing but an advocate for a pernicious and , for Scottish football, damagingly significant, corrupt influence that has caused so much, so feckin much!, trouble for all of us.

    In my humble opinion.

    And may the BBC cease to use his services.


  45. jean7brodie says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:21
    ‘FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHO ADAM IS!!!’
    —
    The wife has just given me an apple, and poked me in the ribs just where it’s sore.Maybe I’m Adam.:)


  47. Jim Traynor can probably go down in history as the man (along with Murray) who inflicted ten years of Murray driven madness into Scottish football, leading ultimately to the death of rangers.

    If only he had been journalist things could have been so different.


  48. john clarke says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 02:04
    12 1 Rate This
    TSFM says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:53
    ‘…Traynor is – or was – a Celtic fan in his youth. ..’
    —
    The whatever-the-hell -star-trek programme it was, had a line to the effect that something ‘does not compute’.

    With all due respect, there is absolutely no way that a genuine
    Celtic supporter can cease to be a Celtic supporter later in life.( Or that an Arbroath or Clyde or any other club supporter can cease to be a supporter of their club).
    This is not to say that a ‘genuine’ supporter should not criticise
    his own club, or, indeed, even challenge it ( as. perhaps, and as an example, the Green Brigade does in relation to Celtic FC)
    But there is, in my opinion, and I believe that the fans of any
    other club in Scotland would agree, no way that any guy who
    supported Celtic in his youth would have become a Murray
    creature.
    Traynor, if he ever was a Celtic supporter-or even a supporter of fairness and integrity in sport-

    has so sold the jersey as to merit nothing but contempt.

    I spit upon him, as a low grade, unprincipled journalistic hack.

    I double spit, if , indeed,he ever at any time claimed to be a Celtic fan.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    You are coming across a bit like Ricardo Montalban in the ‘Wrath of Khan’ as he curses Kirk:

    “From Hell’s heart, I stab at thee…For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”

    Which I’m guessing is not the way you would want to portray yourself. After all, Traynor is many things, but Kirk he ain’t.


  49. Lord Wobbly says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:40
    ____________________________

    While I understand the reasons why some people have a healthy dislike for Adam and perceive him as a troll, I agree with Wobbly that Adam brought something to the table. The best thing RTC had going for it was that you constantly had your preconceived ideas and opinions challenged, if nothing else, he did that very well.


  50. john clarke says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 02:04

    “With all due respect, there is absolutely no way that a genuine Celtic supporter can cease to be a Celtic supporter later in life.( Or that an Arbroath or Clyde or any other club supporter can cease to be a supporter of their club).”

    Beg to differ John. My mate from my school days was the most fervent Celtic fan you could ever have meet. He went to every game home and away, he would travel by train as he hated flying to every game Celtic played abroad. He used to stay at home when his family flew abroad every summer on holiday as he hated flying that much. I never forget Celtic were playing in Dundalk and he refused to travel Northern Ireland so he took his first flight to Dublin, such was his fear of what was happening there at the time. He was at ever pre-season friendly, I recall seeing his picture in the Glasgow Herald as a lone supporter on the old terracing at Hampden Park as Celtic played QP. The guy was obsessed with Celtic, I could not begin to explainhow obsessive he was.

    These days! he and his son are season ticket holders at Dunfermline and have been so for at least 12 years and he has no interest in Celtic whatsover. I find it bizarre.


  51. john clarke on Monday, December 3, 2012 at 02:04

    briggsbhoy on Monday, December 3, 2012 at 08:19

    *****
    You could add Pat Nevin to that list.


  52. corsicacharity says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:59

    If anyone is stupid enough to believe that a football club is somehow distinct from its legal entity then they are as deluded as those who thought the earth was flat or the Pope infallible and . . . . .

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    If anyone believes that the Pope is NOT infallible within the terms of the definition, then they are simply misinformed. Or, perhaps something else.

    Corsicacharity, in wishing to advance the cause of TSFM may I suggest it best to confine ones self to areas of personal expertise.

    In addition, as a general rule of thumb in all football matters in Scotland, references to the Pope should be omitted.


  53. Now that we have had opposing views on Papal infallibility, can we now draw a line under that please?
    Thanks


  54. Lord Wobbly says:
    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 23:19

    Just read Phil’s article on the possibility that Mr Traynor is about to leave the DR for [“corporate”] pastures new.

    Was Phil hinting that Jim may be about to take the pay of Media House?


  55. ___________________________________________________________________________________


  56. A rather bitter piece from Mr Traynor in the DR. A strange way to sign off really, slightly Nixonesque. I wonder if he’ll regret that?

    It’s only in the past few years I’ve learned of the closeness with Sir DM, lamb chops, et cetera.. Prior to that I listened to Your Call, and Paper Talk, which ran on Monday nights. Now later revelations do colour your view but I quite enjoyed both programmes. Though I never really understood why he needed to project the image of a grumpy, if rather benign ogre. I put it down to the weather down Port Glasgow way.

    The most puzzling content in his final column is his continued denial that anything untoward happened at Ibrox. Maybe he’s leaving with a final ‘I told you I was right’, before younger, more perceptive reporters arrive to point out that he wasn’t.

    I was looking at some old youtube clips of Jonathan Watson yesterday, his Stuart C is brillant and has me in stitches. But I’ve never come across a Jim Traynor impersonation. Perhaps parody is impossible?

    Whatever, I’ll buck the trend and wish him a happy otium. Thirty-seven years is a milestone by anyone’s reckoning. Knowing when to call it a day is maybe one of his better judgement calls.


  57. Danish Pastry says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 09:04

    DP, Apologies, but I cannot decipher the link between Mr T and my hometown.;0
    Does anyone have a link to his latest piece, rather than clicking on the DR website.


  60. regarding chuckles latest “wishes” that someone from outside should sort this “mess” out, as all the clubs are suffering a loss of revenue, blah blah blah. . .

    maybe i’m being cynical, but, but, but, is it possible that chuckles real concern is. . .

    the rangers LOSS of REVENUE !?


  61. Danish Pastry says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 09:04
    3 1 i
    Rate This
    A rather bitter piece from Mr Traynor in the DR. A strange way to sign off really, slightly Nixonesque. I wonder if he’ll regret that?
    =========================================================================

    Agree, a very bitter and rather immature way to end his waning career. Sounds more like a wail of “I told you so, you are all a bunch of ar**h***s”. Which comes across as rather sad and pathetic really. Would have thought he could have left with a bit more professional integrity and diginity than that poor piece displays.


  62. Thanks DP.
    If he did frequent these parts it must have been a very long time ago and certainly not in the Port. He may have been to Cappielow a lot back in the 80’s reporting and maybe noticed the weather 😉
    Wow what an astonishing piece from a bitter hurting man, still pandering the nonsense “that they did not cheat the taxman with the use of EBTs,” “Rangers fans saved their club”. Thinly veiled attacks on MD and AT as well as his blast at RTC.

    Begone with you and dry your eyes, but I must give you thanks for the “Succulent lamb” and “MBB” headlines, you really were on the ball….


  63. I’m fairly sure that Mr Traynor stated that he didn’t get paid for his BBC work though there are established fees for freelance work of this type**. I didn’t hear him mention expenses. In any case, his BBC work got him exposure and contacts, just the kind of free advertising a popular journalist and pundit wants.

    “forced to listen to recordings of SFA/SPL meetings”…Well there’s a thing that I never kent.

    Some people get to listen to recordings of SFA meetings. I wonder why the minutes are not published. Or are they? I’ve never seen them on the SFA website.

    **
    http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.php?language=en&country=UK&section=Broadcasting&subsect=BBC+and+national+TV


  64. I think that JT’s bitterness is probably down to his belief that it is actually the blogosphere has forced him out of a job as newspaper circulation figures have plummeted.

    Referencing the RTC blog in his final column shows how important it was to him and the MSM in general.

    However the more astonishing point is his suggestion that the end justifies the means. I suppose he thinks that Lance Armstrong is a model of sporting integrity. And this from a “sports journalist”.

    Excuse me? Accurate on all the major points except the bit that matters most. And that’s all right is it?

    That’s a bit like a team manager saying after a defeat: “Hold on, I picked the right team and I believe my tactics were correct. So the result doesn’t really matter.”

    Dolts. The result is everything.

    Speak to the mirror Jim.
    “Mirror Mirror on the wall, who are the most despicable, pathetic little creatures craving some kind of recognition but lacking in conscience and morality of all?”

    “Why James?, it is the MSM hacks like yourself who have fed on succulent lamb for years that you are describing”


  65. Palacio67 says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 09:40
    1 0 Rate This
    Thanks DP.
    If he did frequent these parts it must have been a very long time ago and certainly not in the Port …
    ———–

    Palacio, wasn’t in any way demeaning Port Glasgow 🙂 I really like the Clyde estuary and the Firth of Clyde, come rain or shine. He used to be very familiar with that area and westward, from the way he talked to callers. The weather idea came from the fact that he doesn’t pronounce the word ‘rain’ as normal people do, he expresses it in a long, dreary sigh!


  66. ecobhoy says:
    Saturday, December 1, 2012 at 21:46

    Rangers Share Flotation
    The other thing is apparently the full article says there will be £10 million worth of shares for fans. So, and this is in my head, £30 million of shares at 70p = 43 million shares. But then there is the original 22+ million which at 70p a time = £15.5m. So total capitalisation would be approx £45.5m if none of the original investors sold and all of the newly issued shares were sold.

    ……………………………………………………………………………………………..
    Just with a quick calculation in my head the figures being banded about make no sense at all.
    If we use Celtic as a guide then we need to take into account the following.
    Celtic
    Total share value about 33million
    SPL season ticket pricing
    Champ league income
    Higher value corporate income
    Higher value merchandising income
    Squad of international players
    Several players values of 5 to 10 million
    Low and reducing debts.

    Rangers
    Looking to issue 63 miilion shares
    Div3 Season ticket pricing
    No Euro money
    No high value players
    Merchandising income uncertain
    High “internal debts”
    Ibrox still with costly asbestos and other maintenance issues
    No banking facilities
    Still owing football debts
    Uncertainty regards footballing penalties

    If The Rangers are ever floated then based on Celtics value of around 33million I can not see the markets once settled putting a value of any more than 12 to 15million on that business.
    If that was the case then we would see an individual share value of (based of 63million shares) of between 20 to 24p.

    Add to that initial investors selling up and flooding the market with shares then there is only one direction this flotation is going in, in fact it gets more and more likely by the day that there will be some kind of private sale to the fans and this never sees the market.


  68. Danish Pastry says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 10:10

    Probably the only thing he ever got right was describing the weather in these parts…;)
    Harsh?


  69. Yes Jim, your peurile spat with Chic live on radio was really professional and uplifting.

    Oh and Rangers did cheat the tax man, out of at least £20m, and they did hide records, and procrastinate, and they did try to mislead and conceal. And they did do the same with the Scottish football authorities.

    You were wrong, again.


  70. briggsbhoy says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 08:19
    –
    ‘..These days! he and his son are season ticket holders at Dunfermline.-
    —-
    And, I have to say, he could have done worse than switch his allegiance to such a noble team!
    Curious, though.
    I lived and worked in Carlisle for a time and ‘adopted’ Carlisle United while I was there, and can understand how people can develop an affinity with a second, or third, club. But to completely abandon your first football love is maybe a wee bit unusual.


  71. john clarke says: Monday, December 3, 2012 at 02:04

    But there is, in my opinion, and I believe that the fans of any other club in Scotland would agree, no way that any guy who supported Celtic in his youth would have become a Murray creature.
    ========
    I would agree, but then there was 007.


  73. madbhoy24941 says:
    Monday, December 3, 2012 at 08:19
    5 5 Rate This
    Lord Wobbly says:

    Sunday, December 2, 2012 at 22:40
    ____________________________

    While I understand the reasons why some people have a healthy dislike for Adam and perceive him as a troll, I agree with Wobbly that Adam brought something to the table. The best thing RTC had going for it was that you constantly had your preconceived ideas and opinions challenged, if nothing else, he did that very well.

    ——————————————————

    Madbhoy,

    I didn’t mind Adams contributions at all – it was a different perspective and whilst it was certainly something to think about, time and again, he was wrong in everything he “proposed”

    At a theoretical level, the debate was interesting, but it required a leap of faith that simply wasn’t merited given the evidence churned out on RTC on an hourly basis.

    Interesting perspective, well put forward, but selective of facts, sorry FACTS, and evidence used to support his argument and at the end of the day he was shown up for being well wide of the mark.

    However, i did enjoy his contribution, and it would certainly welcome back here (IMO) as TSFM is a very different beast and I’m sure Adam could put forward plenty of interesting scenarios on what is wrong with the Scottish game – and why Sevco, as well as the rest of Scottish football, are being treated badly by the governing bodies.

    if you wade into RM and FF and see how they present their arguments – then Adam is the sort of decent Sevconian we’d welcome – and that i’m saddened to see isn’t trying to shape the new club and it’s future.


  74. Ha. Traynor and friends’ team of the 20th Century. No place for Puskas Ferenc?

    Dolt.

    The second part of his piece doesn’t warrant comment – its girly puerility speaks for itself.


  75. Is it today BDO are meeting with RFC creditors?

    My understanding is that BDO will make public the amounts owed, and to whom, including the tax man.

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