The increasing attacks on social media by the main stream press, fuelled in some respect by David Murray’s vague threats of litigation against bloggers, has brought into sharp focus the challenges facing the Blogosphere. It also brings into even sharper focus the prescience of Stuart Cosgrove’s assertion that this summer’s ‘epistemological break’ had begun to marginalize the Scottish sporting wing of the MSM.
The reality of that assertion is embedded in the misreporting of the FTT decision as a victory for RFC, falsely alleging that those who operated the EBT scheme had been exonerated, that RFC had ‘done nothing wrong’, and consequently accusing ‘vindictive anti-Rangers bloggers’ of playing a part in the downfall of that once great Scottish institution. It is also evident in Tom English’s rather bitter and one-dimensional anti-RTC polemic today in the Scotland on Sunday. Had it been entitled “Self Preservation”, it may have rung a few more truth bells.
I am not of the belief that the MSM is an instinctively pro-Rangers estate, but I do think that their reportage of the FTT is more geared towards discrediting the newly emergent forces in the social media area than it is towards rehabilitating the public image of RFC or David Murray.
However despite the contempt in which many people here hold the MSM and Murray, English does have a point that we would be foolish to ignore. No-one can deny that we do have a duty to ensure that we are responsible in how we present ourselves to the public. Now that our (and others’) success as a real and creative alternative has spurred the MSM into action, we are subject to greater scrutiny than at any time in the past. Our view is that we have to be pro-actively engaged in setting a standard for ourselves that is above those that the MSM have set for themselves.
We have on TSFM an audience exponentially greater than the number of posts. That presents us with a great opportunity to get our message across, but it also burdens us with an increased responsibility not to fall into the trap which has besought the Succulent Lamb Brigade.
We are a very different animal from RTC. RTC him or herself had information and insight to bring to the table that the administrators of this site do not. The founder and former admin of TSFM had the idea that the talent available from posters on the RTC – not just RTC himself – should continue to have a forum in a post-RTC world, and that those talents could be used to challenge the myths regularly represented as facts by lazy journalists in the MSM.
We have at our disposal on this blog forensic analysis of legal, media and corporate matters. We have an abundance of creative minds, all passionate about the game of football AS WELL AS a partisan love for their chosen club. With all that talent and expertise, we can make an impact on the agenda by challenging the misinformation and substandard journalism of the MSM, and our finest moments are when we do that. We lose authority and influence when the debate is impeded by bald accusation or innuendo backed up with little more than an historical view of our country.
Our biggest impact (and largest audience) is to be found when when our experts have collectively torn apart those myths presented as truths by the MSM, and when we have asked the questions that the MSM either can’t or won’t ask or answer. Those are the things that have driven the traffic to this site, and many of the emails we get congratulate us on that.
Our credibility plummets though when we go down the partisan path. We also get literally hundreds of emails from fans who ask that we cut down on the comments of those who are merely venting outrage at how they see the game being mismanaged (mainly so they can access the important stuff more quickly), and from fans who are just fed up with the constant name-calling – almost exclusively aimed at Ally McCoist and other Rangers figures.
If we claim to be an intellectual and journalistic rung or two above the likes of the Red Tops (not to mention to be decent and respectful of others), we need to refrain from the name calling and accusatory culture. We can ask questions, put items for debate on the public agenda, point out apparent irregularities and anomalies. In rushing to judgement of others from the comfort of the glow of our own laptop screens, we are guilty of the same lazy journalism we see in others. Name calling (all good fun of course on a fan site) is just a lazy thought process and as English says, comes across as “nasty”.
We never saw RTC as a fan-site. The original administrator of this blog never saw TSFM as one either, and nor do we. In order to succeed properly, we need sensible fans of ALL clubs to be comfortable and feel secure in our midst. Of course we are not breaking any laws, but can anyone honestly say that we have evolved into a welcoming place for Rangers fans?
TSFM is not about hounding any one club out of existence or into shame or infamy. In the Rangers saga we have sought to ensure that the football authorities play fair with everyone and stick to their own rules. One well kent RTC contributor, and no friend of Rangers, often said that if the FTT found in favour of Rangers we should move along and accept it. Well they did find in favour of Rangers in the majority of cases. That may not suit many of us, but we are the Scottish Football Monitor, not a Judicial Watchdog. We can say why we disagree with the decision, but criticism of the process through which the decision was arrived at is beyond our purview.
Since the accusation is often made in the MSM, we should state, unequivocally and unreservedly, that we are NOT anti-Rangers. Their fans face the same issues as the rest of us and they are welcome here. We are however, equally unequivocally against the gravy train journalism of the Scottish Football Wing of the MSM (with one or two honourable exceptions).
If the Anti-Blogateers in the press are correct, the popularity of the TSFM will recede as the Rangers Tax case reverts to the back pages before disappearing for good. However I do not believe that they are correct. I don’t believe that Scottish football fans are only motivated by either hatred – or even dislike – of one club. I believe we are more concerned with the game itself than the pot-stirrers in the MSM would have us believe, because we understand the interdependence of football clubs.
But we also understand that the people who run football clubs do not always run their clubs for the benefit of the fans. In the business world, that may not be out of the ordinary, since businesses are run for the benefit of shareholders.
However football reserves for itself a special place in the hearts of people in this country. If the people who run football clubs want to retain that favourable status, they have to be accountable to the fans.
The difficulty in holding them to account though, is that the cosy relationship cultivated between club directors, managers and players and the press renders the access to information a closed shop, and the information itself is heavily filtered and spun.
As long as we keep asking questions in response to the fruit of that cosy relationship, we will be providing people with an alternative angle and viewpoint, allowing them to come to their own conclusions, and not the one the MSM post-presser huddle delivers to us wrapped up in a bow.
For the SFM specifically, we believe that to have any influence, we need to enable the expertise at our disposal to flourish. It is also vital to our project that Rangers fans are included in our dialogue. We just can’t call ourselves the Scottish Football Monitor if they are largely excluded from participation because they feel they are being treated disrespectfully.
We can’t tolerate the accusations and name calling. We need to stick to what we have done best; factual analysis, conjecture based on known facts and on-line discourse leading to searching questions being asked.
One of the things we are looking at for the near future is to set up some kind of formal and transparent channel of communication between the SFM and the football authorities. Being truly representative of fans will make that easier to achieve.
The MSM will continue to attack the social media outlets. In one way you can understand it. Their jobs are at stake. The business model of the print media in particular has changed massively over the last five years, manifesting itself mainly in increasingly under-resourced newsrooms. Consequently it is besought by increasingly unreliable and under-researched journalism, even to the point where much of it is no longer journalism at all.
By comparison the Blogosphere has access to greater human and time resources, is able to react to unfolding events in real time, and crucially (because it has been eschewed instead of embraced by print media proprietors) has been occupied by ordinary folk with little or no vested interest.
We are still in position to provide a service in our small niche of the on-line world. We have rights to publish and speak freely about our passion, but we also have to live up to the attendant responsibilities, and thus the appeal for discretion on posting comments.
Where Tom English got it completely wrong (in the uniquely ironic way the MSM have about them), is that his industry has mistaken the rights others have earned for them as entitlement, and ignored almost completely the responsibility they had to act on behalf of those who pay their wages.
Correct, sabre rattling and playing to the crowd.
Oh and if it helps rehabilitate some of his reputation with the loyal so much the better.
i seem to remember a certain PR chap who declared last July :
” If you stop telling the truth about us,we’ll stop telling lies about you ”
or maybe i got that the wrong way round
2points between the top 6 teams, Armageddon eh!!!!.
Resistance is Futile – What a difference a week makes
They still don’t get it do they ? It’s been over a week now since the publication of the FTT(T) Chamber Decision in the case of Murray Group Holdings and others v HMRC and it appears that not one of the usual suspects from within the Scottish mainstream media has yet made any attempt to understand and communicate a truthful summary of the findings to their readers. In my humble opinion, they grossly underestimate the intelligence of their readership.
To be fair to them, the document is rather lengthy and full of legalese and financial jargon, never mind it being heavily redacted and anonymised. It is quite possible that they just ‘skimmed’ the 145-page document looking for the ‘juiciest’ headlines or they may have simply skipped to the all-important ‘majority decisions’, however they certainly didn’t ‘read’ it. To ‘read’ means ‘to interpret written material’.
The least one would’ve expected was that one of the ‘popular ‘red top’ newspapers would have sent the report to their own business desks or legal departments to get their ‘expert’ interpretation of the findings and their likely impacts and what have you. However, nowhere in the Scottish press have I seen anything like an ‘accurate’ synopsis of the report, which everyone with an interest in Scottish football had been eagerly awaiting since February this year. No attempt at examining the findings of the First Tier Tribunal that I did happen to come across, came anywhere near the detailed critical analyses of bloggers BRTH and Paul Mac.
Instead we were subjected to a ubiquitous ‘Rangers Win Tax Case’ headline with the underlying narrative being ‘We were right, The bampots were wrong, na-na-na, na-na, na!’. Notwithstanding the incredibly puerile nature of this slant on a very complicated and serious story (which I, for one, have come to expect from the Scottish football press) the fact is, it is simply a ‘false’ representation of what the three eminent judges found with regard to the decade-long ‘aggressive tax avoidance policy’ undertaken by Mr Murrays group of companies including what was Rangers FC PLC. This type of infantile and self-satisfied reporting continues to do a grave disservice to all football fans and concerned citizens of this country and will, I believe, only exacerbate the further decline of the established media.
Ask yourself ‘how come the mainstream media allowed financially uneducated sports hacks with little to no business savvy to take the lead in what was quite obviously not a sports story?’ This is one of the biggest scandals in recent Scottish history, a story of corporate greed, institutional corruption and cover-up with far-reaching implications across our communities. I believe that this is because, in Scotland, the sports hack may actually wield more power than the business reporters because market research has told them that they are the ones that ‘sell more papers’. Telling the truth to the ‘punters’ is apparently ‘not a profitable enterprise’ for the Scottish media.
In the last week I have seen many of the old Rangers diehards where ‘wheeled-out’ to declare an almost complete vindication of Rangers (read Murray) and the view that these ‘ambiguous’ findings undermine the SPL’s ‘dual contracts’ investigation. So far Mr Mols, Mr Dodds, Mr Goram, Mr Gough, and a few other have crept out from the shadows to add their clout to the tale of ‘innocence and agenda’ being propagated by the Scottish press. Mr English’s backtracking articles and Stuart Cosgrove’s unnecessary but sincere ‘apology’ to Rangers fans only added weight to the ‘agreed narrative’ which, ironically, Mr Cosgrove had just described the mechanism of in his recent TSFM blog.
What we are witnessing here, as we should have expected, is a coordinated campaign to win back the ‘hearts and minds’ of those readers who have recently rejected the established media. Disillusioned by their prejudiced and inefficient reporting throughout the Rangers saga, this readership had instead sought their news and analysis from the alternative media where every twist and turn was almost instantly scrutinised and ‘ripped apart’ by unpaid but well-informed bloggers. This ‘Clash of the Typists’ is also playing out in wider society, the peculiar Lord McAlpine story being a case in point. The agenda here, quite simply, is to undermine the growing influence of the ‘uncontrollable’ internet and the rise of the citizen journalist – for fear of losing their power and their jobs.
Everyone with an internet connection understands that most, but not all, of what we can access on the web (aside from porn) is just idle gossip, malicious rumour and conspiratorial fantasy, however, the same could equally be said of the tabloid media that the public blindly consume every day. The main difference, in this ‘age of open access’, is that the public now have the freedom to ‘choose’ what they read from an interminable variety of sources. Obviously every person is restricted by their own innate desire to ‘believe what they want to believe’ however, we each have the power to ‘decide’ what of this mass of information ‘fits’ with our personal experience (our ‘knowing’ if you will). What we should certainly understand by now is that much of the output from the MSM is utterly corrupted by corporate interests and that ‘real news’ is routinely suppressed and downplayed in favour of advertising and propaganda, whereas, with the citizen blogger, at least, we only have his or her own personal bias to contend with.
Mr English’s (one of the more honest and erudite of the main stream reporters throughout this fiasco) recent musings present a number of valid points alluding to the distinction between the old and new media. In particular, his assertion that the much-admired rangerstaxcase site (and its progeny The Scottish Football Monitor), as they became more popular and less easy to moderate, became somewhat anti-Rangers and anti-media, is worth pondering. To be honest, both sites did contain a fair amount of gloating and anti Rangers rhetoric, at points. However, I believe that this was minimal (esp compared to some of the other fans sites) and was to be expected given that these forums were revealing issues that the Rangers’ hierarchy wished to keep hidden and that many of the Rangers supporters would have preferred to ignore.
The focus of RTC and TSFM has always been to challenge the misinformation and disinformation spouted by the msm with regard to what is really going on in Scottish football. I am of the view that it was the decent fans of the old Rangers who were most grievously affected by the Murray/Whyte shenanigans whilst recognising its insidious impact throughout Scottish society. Although I admit to being perplexed at times by what appears to be ‘wilful ignorance’ amongst many of these supporters, the Scottish football media hacks have ‘successfully’ polarised the debate to be about either ‘pro-Rangers or anti-Rangers’ to such a degree, that it’s little wonder the Rangers fans felt so isolated and victimised. As a poor substitute for the unprofitable truth, the media have engendered and gave comfort to their delusions. RTC and TSFM were never really anti-Rangers, they were instead pro-‘Fair Play’.
Mr English’s attempt to denigrate the anonymous blogger who brought us, to my mind, the Scottish phenomenon of 2012, with thousands of fans of many persuasions coming together to demand fair play and accountability in our game, smacks of ‘shooting the messenger’ which is the exact opposite of journalism. He also attempted an old trick of conflating two separate issues, one being a perceived anti-Rangers bias the other being an anti-media agenda, as though one equated to the other. As for being anti-media, the truth is these bloggers were never anti-media per se, just pro-truth and anti-propaganda. The quality of information, analysis and debate on these sites still far outshines anything we are getting from the complacent msm hacks.
To me, the Rangers EBT tax case was always just a ‘side-letter’ in the bigger story of corporate corruption, institutional bias and msm collusion in the cover-up. It was online bloggers like Phil Mac and RTC who first brought the facts into the open while the hack pack were busy finishing off their lamb dinners. It was they who analysed the veracity of the statements coming out of Ibrox and Media House, while Jabba and co just copied and pasted. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle and they know it.
Their vain campaign won’t work – they have had their chance to take on board the new realities presented by the emergent blogosphere and to engage ‘constructively’ with representatives of this new media. Instead they chose a fruitless fight against an irresistible force.
“We are Blogger. A meeting of minds. We will assimilate you. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.”
highlandjaggy says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 21:53
Yeah, I agree. Scottish football is finished.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And by ‘finished’, I do, of course, mean ‘more exciting than it’s been for years’.
It seems we’re at close to the perfect set up for Scottish football. We’ve got the Newco spreading their fans’ cash round the lower leagues (if not goodwill to the pubs in the respective town centres), a race at the top so tight that it should be renamed the gnat’s chuff premier league, and a smattering of SPL teams trying to play football the right way. Alright, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Mirren etc aren’t Barcelona – in fact they’re not even Barcelona B – but they are making the effort to entertain.
To my mind, all that’s missing from this set up is a responsible controlling body that offers robust leadership, and a grass roots plan to furnish the above named teams with the sort of players their style of football deserves.
Humble Pie says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 22:02
Humble, you’re right – on RTC, the tax case itself became a trivial side issue. It became more about the fact that we were fed up being lied to – we were mad as hell, and we weren’t going to take it anymore! …..er… yeah, anyway….
It suits the agenda of the MSM to continue to trumpet the result (even if they’re mis-representing it) as a loss of credibility for ourselves and other bloggers, because what else was covered by the blog made for very, very uncomfortable reading for them, and I don’t think the bampots will ever be forgiven for forcing Scottish football chiefs to implement their own rules.
Humble Pie says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 22:02
——————————————————–
I not big into the whole “we are not worthy” sort of thing but I have to point out, that one single post is exactly the reason I have not read most of the online newspapers in the last few months.
It was an extremely enjoyable read which was simple, direct, objective and with no juvenile name calling.
If utilised correctly, this blog is a fantastic vehicle for sharing insights and debating key issues affecting our game.
I don’t expect Danish, Angus, EasyJ or Arab to agree with my Green Tinted Specs point of view every time but I value them putting me in my place every time I appear incorrect, I also appreciate a critical view on posts or opinions I share.
And that is (can be) the difference with this blog and the MSM, we welcome the difference of opinion and the correcting of the misinformed. Is there any current MSM journalist out there that welcomes that level of scrutiny or debate on their articles?
So Elgin have to pay TRFC expenses for the postponed match.
Players wages for 1 week is my guess.
This blog and RTC have never in my opinion been ant RFC(IL)
What they and the contributors have been very anti, are all of those who peddled an agenda that was very pro RFC(IL) to the exclusion of all else
Step forward Murray, Johnston and all of the old guard, directors, managers, players and ex-players
Step forward Charlie and the Sevcovians
Step forward the vast majority of the written and broadcast media in this country
Step forward the football authorities who were prepared, and still are prepared to sell our game down the river in an effort to favour one club
If taking all of these to task, and shining a light on their activities and agendas is classed as being anti RFC(IL) or Sevco, then we are guilty
Make no mistake, we will continue to challenge and question your every action, but that does not make us anti RFC(IL) or Sevco
What it does make us, are people who will not sit back and accept without question your distortion of fact and manipulation of truth for your own ends
We are anti you, no one else
This may sound a silly question, but with the most competitive SPL ever, with nearly every club about 3 wins in a row away from the top. Why the rush to change it?
I hope the Chairmen see sense.
campsiejoe says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 23:14
===============================
It was made clear right from the start, explicitly.
The RTC blog was a reaction to the absolute failure of the MSM in Scotland to report on a huge story in any meaningful or honest way.
Nothing has changed.
Agrajag @ 23:25
And without it, the vast majority of us would have been none the wiser
Dave B says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 22:59
So Elgin have to pay TRFC expenses for the postponed match.
Players wages for 1 week is my guess
====================================================
I doubt that. That could possibly bankrupt them. More likely expenses for travel, accommodation ordered, odds and ends like that. Probably a few thousand – though for those small clubs that can be a hard hit.
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 13:42
————————————-
TBK, actually AAM lost the appeal in the FTT, so they were the appellants again in the Upper Chamber and were fairly confident of overturning the decision.
As it happens their confidence was wholly misplaced yet as yesterday’s results show, they have bounced back and are now an exemplary financial services business – one of the best in Scotland at present.
As an interesting aside, counsel for both sides came from Mr Thornhill’s Pump Court Tax Chambers, with Julian Ghosh for HMRC being successful against Kevin Prosser for AAM.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 22:09 25 1 Rate This
highlandjaggy says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 21:53
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Gnat’s chuff premier league – genuine laugh out loud at that.
The most competitive this league has ever been and practically every team in with a shout. I understand the need for reconstruction to create the pyramid structure that allows promotion and relegation at all levels but do we really need to change the number of teams in SPL and SFL1-3. And do we really need a split at the end of the season?
And a closing thought
Charlie says he will never allow Sevco to become members of the SPL
Charlie, I have a message for you
We don’t need you
@STVGrant: More as we get it, but Stephen Thompson resigning from SPL board under a week before big meeting on league reconstruction is… curious.
Any DU posters have any inside info on this resignation?
What is the likelihood of it being Sevco related?
Humble Pie says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 22:02
‘……RTC and TSFM were never really anti-Rangers, they were instead pro-’Fair Play’…’
————
Indeed. Most of us were so taken aback by
a) the possibility that a club could have bought its apparent success illicitly
b) that senior officials in both club and SFA might have known about that behaviour and turned a blind eye
and, perhaps most puzzling of all, c) the fact that what seemed to be a huge story was being totally ignored for ignoble and unworthy reasons by a complicit/cowardly press pack in the MSM ( even the good guys were slow off the mark!)
While, for Celtic supporters, the fact that the story was related to RFC might have added an extra bit of interest, and while some undoubtedly exulted in the troubles of their rivals, I think most of us on the blog were, and continue to be, genuinely concerned about the governance of the game and the possibility that there had been shenanigans that were going to go unpunished.
.
Far from clearing the air, the FTTT judgment has compounded the problem, in so far as the MSM are STILL not reporting accurately the nature of the judgment, but are continuing to be partisan and utterly unbalanced in what they tell their readers.
No,we are not ‘anti-Rangers’ as such.
We are anti-shenanigans.
And even this very evening we have yet another wee question to ask-what is the nature of the dispute between Topping and Thompson, such as has caused the latter to resign from the SPL board?
Is topping proposing or supporting further shenanigans?
That would be intolerable.
We must be told.
Can we expect the jabbas to even try to find out for us? No, I think not- their souls are in hock.
Jim Spence might, though.
More power to his elbow.
Inverness CT Fans @ictfans 5m
This has to be one of the most exciting spl seasons yet! Very
close and all to play for. Who needs Rangers?!
Lawyers for former Rangers owner Sir David Murray have called for a criminal investigation to be launched after details of his tax affairs were published in the media and online.
In a statement released on Tuesday, his lawyers Levy and McRae stated that they had been instructed to “submit a complaint to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service regarding the publication of information relating to his tax affairs”.
The complaint is believed to centre on information about Sir David’s use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs) at Rangers and Murray International Holdings
———————————————————————————————————–
what if the alleged perpetrator(s) have purchased a good shredder and also purchased a new mobile phone and new pc.
all the evidence will have gone, or will this only be classed as “concealing” the evidence?
would mr black not already have been told – by the mysterons?
Lord Wobbly says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:14
‘…This has to be one of the most exciting spl seasons yet!..’
—-
I was a wee bit disappointed that Richard Gordon, for all his infectious enthusiasm in emphasising that point, didn’t follow up with a ‘statistic’ about the last time so many teams in any division were separated by so few points at this stage in a season!
I’m not a stats man, but I would think it must have been a long, long time ago.
(Incidentally, my lord: are you connected by any chance to the the famous ‘Wobblies’ of the early decades of 20th century Australia? )
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
“Always forgive your enemies – nothing annoys them so much.” Oscar Wilde
madbhoy24941 says:
Thank you for your kind comments.
john clarke says:
‘anti-shenanigans’…I like it, do you mind if I use that ?.
Humble Pie says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:33
‘…‘anti-shenanigans’…I like it, do you mind if I use that ?.’
—
By all means- just don’t tell my auntie. 🙂
When Fergus McCann rebuilt Celtic Park he not only negated the natural advantage Rangers had over us through their ability to pay higher wages because of bigger gates due to ground capacity, he gave Celtic the advantage that Rangers had enjoyed for years.
Unable to increase capacity at Ibrox to match, Rangers were forced to look at other ways of regaining advantage.
Traditionally the way to get a player to sign for you and not the opposition was an under the table payment that your competitor was unable to match aka ‘a bung’.
Stripped of the legal clothing ebts are presented in they are at heart, by being concealed, the football equivalent of bungs, introduced to negate the advantage Fergus had delivered.
One method was honest and open for the world to see, the other secret because had it been open it would either have been forbidden or available to all clubs to use.
Ebts were but the brown envelopes, the contents whether repayable or not were bungs designed to get an immediate and lasting advantage not available to competitors.
This last bit is the message that has to emerge from the Nimmo enquiry if the spirit of the rules is to be upheld.
If bizarrely Nimmo goes with the FTT approach of form over substance, then UEFA are going to have to reexamine their 3rd party and other registration rules and the principles behind them and rewrite them accordingly so that all clubs are on an equal footing..
john clarke says: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:31
I’m not a stats man, but I would think it must have been a long, long time ago.
=================================
Perhaps not as long ago as you thought. It was in the middle of an ex-club’s nine in a row,
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premier-division/1993-1994/table/1993-11-27
The final table that season was relatively close too
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/premier-division/1993-1994/table
campsiejoe says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 23:32
I go further: any club who fails to understand the need to observe rules that they signed up to then deliberately broker is lucky anyone will prostitute themselvs for their business.
I wonder if Mr Murray’s, (sorry Mr Black’s) concern about the “leak” is a personal one, given that the majority’s decision in the FTTT made specific references to the tax liability of himself and that of his sons. Should work out as something of the order of £3M plus, given that he received £6.3M from his EBT.
easyJambo says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:43
‘Perhaps not as long ago as you thought. It was in the middle of an ex-club’s nine in a row,’
—
This blog is fantastic: there’s always somebody who knows! Thank you.
I am really surprised at that, and more surprised that it was in the SPL!
My gut feeling was that while at any given time the three or four teams at the top end might have been separated by a point or two, the gap between them and the next lot was always more than a few points.
Armageddon this ain’t!
Humble Pie says:
Tuesday, November 27,
“a ‘false’ representation of what the three eminent judges found with regard to the decade-long ‘aggressive tax avoidance policy’
================================================================
None of the three Tribuunal members was a judge …never mind an eminent judge
==============================================================
“Mr English’s (one of the more honest and erudite of the main stream reporters throughout this fiasco) recent musings present a number of valid points alluding to the distinction between the old and new media. I”
and his ad hominem attack on RTC demonstrates what exactly ?…. ” cowardly cowardly custard .. gi’es your address so we can whistle the dogs up ?”
Engish is henceforth a busted flush in tyhis whollyb lamentable debacle
highlandjaggy says:
2points between the top 6 teams, Armageddon eh!!!!.
——
Ah… but it’ll be 3 points after tomorrow when the Super Saintees beat Hibs to go top 🙂
john clarke says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:31
(Incidentally, my lord: are you connected by any chance to the the famous ‘Wobblies’ of the early decades of 20th century
Australia? )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No idea. I’m not aware of any ‘Wobblies’, famous or otherwise, from the early decades of 20th Century Oz.
Do you know if they liked a drop of the amber nectar?
Did they have an eye for the Sheilas’?
And how did they get there?
Didn´t the use of “Armageddon” refer to finance rather then competitiveness ?
The triumphilist irony being employed on here when using this phrase may be a little hasty and misplaced. I think you need 2 rounds of fixtures (22 games) so as to give an accurate reflection of average attendences, this probably being the most direct immediately measurable on-going factor.
At the end of the season we´ll be in a better place to see how the financial health of the SPL and indeed the rest of Scottish football is getting on.
So whilst the use of the A word alongside the timescale given was without doubt a scare tactic, the actual danger is still there. Not so much a sudden implosion but a steady drift towards it.
Objectivity is your best friend for sound analysis.
Let’s start with the basics. I am a Rangers fan, always have been always will be. my teenage years were spent going to Ibrox and singing loudly about what I was up to my knees in because I thought singing couldn’t songs harm anybody and I make no apologies for it because back then I also thought I loved every girl I dated and that I was going to be a rock star. Turns out I was wrong on three accounts.
I’d like to think as I got older I also got a little wiser, I realised that spending two hours a week spewing hated can’t be good for your mind or general demeanour in life and on recent visits to ibrox I’m happy to say that others may have too.
Recently on the subway just before the Scottish cup tie against Alloa your typical “Berr” alighted. he immediately launched into the billy boys and was met with stony silence, after trying two or three more of the “old songs” he finally gave up loudly announcing that we were all “f*cking embarrassments” and that his grandpa was “spinning in his grave”. Now I don’t want to doubt his elderly relative’s gymnastic ability but I very much doubt our actions had him doing a triple salco. It’s strange to say but that subway journey renewed my faith in Rangers and the fans, to me it marked a turning point because make no mistake five years ago he would have got the chorus he was seeking.
I see a lot of Celtic fans who claim to have intimate knowledge of not only what’s happening inside the ibrox boardroom but also the stands, the pie stalls and even the Rangers fans heads. Generally a story such as the above will garner two types of response, firstly “you’re making it up” and secondly “yes you all stayed quiet but you wanted to sing didn’t you?” well no, and the shared glances around the carriage told of a teeth itchingly awkward moment for all. The guy was a dinosaur, a hopelessly lost wee man with nothing but hate to define himself by.
Many still point to the fervent ramblings of the most lunatic of the lunatic fringe who inhabit follow follow, they cast aspersions on anybody who dares voice the opinion that most Rangers fans are not like that; “really? Then why are they not posting on football forums then?”
The answer is simple, why engage in a forum where your views are instantly dismissed as wrong? Where the framework of the debate is “Rangers = a cancer of the Scottish game”. I note with interest that TSFM website is appealing for more Rangers fans to join but when has it ever allowed a guest contributor to put across anything even remotely resembling a Ranger’s viewpoint?
I’m all for the end of the MSM, red top journalism has had its day, a the online blogosphere has more scope, knowledge, expertise’s and poise than any daily paper, if only we could somehow give away holidays for £9.50 we would truly have them beat. The likes of traynor, keevins and spiers know this but like the ageing gorilla they seem to be unwilling to move on without a fight.
However if these vast pool of resources are used to simply to attack one institution then it’s all for nothing. SDM in the main talks a load of cobblers but he did once say “All of society’s ills cannot be laid at the door of one football club”. Ranger’s financial implosion was self-made, our fans have accepted were we are and in the main are enjoying it, after all, who couldn’t laugh at Coistys management sometimes?
Scottish football does not “need a strong Rangers” to survive, the tightness of the spl this year proves as much. Celtic has again provided the stirring European nights that produces everlasting memories and poorly edited DVD’s. Even Partick Thistle are playing a brand of football not seen since Chic Charnley glided around the pitch, his chest proudly expounding the virtues of textile world.
But there is a big difference between that tawdry MSM line about Rangers and joyously dancing on the grave of a rival club then dismissing their fans opinions simply on the basis that they are “an orc, a sevconian or any number of malicious names.
I’ll continue to post here and contribute to the debate is some small way as Scottish football needs the fans now more than ever. Hopefully one day my opinions might even be taken seriously but I think that’s as likely as my teenage dreams of sex, drugs and rock & roll.
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:02
I believe the ‘average’ fan cares more about competitiveness rather than finances, and this competitiveness will bring more fans through the gates in my opinion. We are seeing at the moment (Celtic Apart) Increased attendances at all grounds.
greenockjack says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 17:26
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Press release
27/11/12
SIR DAVID MURRAY TAKES LEGAL ACTION OVER TAX LEAKS
(Issued on behalf of Levy & McRae Solicitors and Notaries Public)
Professor Peter Watson of Levy & McRae has confirmed that he has been instructed by Sir David Murray to submit a complaint to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service regarding the publication of information relating to his tax affairs.
Professor Watson said: “Sir David regards such information as private and confidential and the publication of such information as unlawful. He has asked that this matter is investigated and that anyone found guilty of breaching the law is the subject of prosecution.”
===================================================================
Well good luck with that one buddy!
Sabre rattling from Mr Black
==========================================================
i’m no financial expert, but i read “somewhere” in these bloggs, that they were alleging that MIH was in debt to the tune of over £600 million.
if that is even half true
[which i am not saying any of it is, of course]
where the hell is the money coming from to pay the ‘eagles’
or is it – no win no fee ?
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:02
———————————————————-
You have a good point regarding finances, I think most people get that and we will need to see how things are at the end of both football and financial seasons. Recent financials released by a few teams only serve to demonstrate that the problem of finance has always been there and will continue to be there irrelevant of where Rangers play, it is there because clubs are not run correctly.
What this short few months have highlighted is that you can reduce the playing squad and player salaries and still put a team on the field that is only 1 or 2 games away from a European spot, the table does not lie.
So I don’t believe “Armageddon” was used only in reference to finances, there was also a lot of talk about the competition turning into a 1 team league after Rangers departed, sadly for them, this has not been the case so far.
Without fear or favour…
I haven’t posted for a few days, just observed what has been going on. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:
In case some on here haven’t copped on, this blog could have any amount of erudite and fair-minded Rangers (IL) fans posting on here. It will make NO difference whatsoever as to how it is perceived by a. The previous RFC(IL) Board members, b. those who have something to hide at the SFA/SPL and c. the Scottish MSM.
They hate you, folks, they hate what you have done and now they are attempting to utterly discredit you.
Rangers (IL)/Sevco fans who come on here writing demonstrable crapaganda should have their posts forensically dissected in the same way that other posts, from other supporters, would be. If they run off in the huff crying ‘foul!’, so be it. It will make no difference to how this blog is perceived.
For those who admire the blog, no excuses or explanations are necessary. For those who detest it, no excuses or explanations are acceptable.
Meanwhile, SDM is attempting to up his game in silencing legitimate criticisms and putting ‘fear’ into those who would expose the truth.
Campbell Ogilvie is still in place and being touted for another two years in office. That would be handy in some places eh?
And Tom English has the blog naval gazing, we became bitter and twisted, anti-Rangers and anti-MSM. Is that right, Tom? He has certainly put us on the back foot, that’s for sure. Such is the pressure that even Stuart Cosgrove has apologized. For what? And still not one apology from those who have ridden roughshod over our game for years.
I would suggest that the blog stops pandering to Sevco fans, dumbing down for the benefit of SDM, and justifying itself to a discredited media.
Palacio
Until it comes to survival issues I´d agree that competitivenss trumps finance in the supporters eyes but that´s not the point I´m making.
Surely this blog whilst being made of supporters should be trying to analyse the relevant matters and in an objective manner.
The A word referred to finance.
I think it probably best to forget about the A word because it gets in the way of objective analysis as people go out of their way to prove it´s not happening.
It´s clear it was a scare tactic and it hasn´t happened in the timescale that Doncaster talked about. He´s a CEO and money trumps everything.
Now lets move on with objectivity.
As for attendances, you´re making a false assumption as it stands.
Using the SPL teams that were in the same league last season. (based on official SPL web figures)
Celtic / down
Hearts / down
Aberdeen / up
Hibs / up
Motherwell / down
Dundee Utd / up
St.Mirren / up
St.Johnstone / down
Kilmarnock / down
ICT / up
As I said previously, best time to measure this is after 2 complete rounds of fixtures.
andytwenty3 says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:05(Edit)
________________________________________________________
Welcome to the SFM andytwenty3. It is still a tough gig for a Rangers fan on here given the feeling surrounding the Tax Case, but if we can disagree in a climate of respect, we will be going some to uniting fans – and who knows, maybe your viewpoint will bring some people round to your way of thinking.
Madbhoy
The bookies wouldn´t agree with you on the SPL not being a one horse race.
Skybet are offering 1/200 for a Celtic title win, William Hills a more “generous” 1/66 !!
The apparent apathy of Celtic players and indeed their home SPL support tends to support this.
There is at present a competitive race below Celtic for the European places and that there are a couple of the old big teams (Aberdeen & Hibs) making a push whilst Hearts drift downwards.
The notable story is Aberdeen, who have put together a reasonable squad, are supporting Celtic re.voting structure and seem to have a vision that will centre on second place and the money that goes with it. This would enable them to further develop squad as they try to become the temporary secondary force.
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:02
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Didn´t the use of “Armageddon” refer to finance rather then competitiveness ?
====================
Yes it did refer to finance, but surely financial health is directly linked to a competitive league? Figures have already been produced on this forum showing an increase in average home gates for most of the SPL clubs. Since then, the league has become even tighter, and I would expect the next report on attendances to show an even healthier picture.
The Armageddon scenario was cooked up by financially illiterate journalists who totally ignored (or just didn’t understand) the fact that since RFC kept their home gates, the only loss to the other clubs was the difference between their own home gates against RFC and their home gates against Dundee.
Figures were produced on RTC to demonstrate that for most clubs, this loss could easily be covered by an increased average attendance of a couple of hundred in their other games. Unfortunately, our Media pay loads of money to a bunch of chumps who can’t even work stuff like that out for themselves. How did these jokers get jobs as journalists? Daddy must have owned a newspaper, or at least knew a man who did.
The only club which is really suffering financially is Celtic, where home gates have bombed this season. However their run in Europe will amply cover any shortfall.
The scenario so vividly sketched out for us pre-season by our insightful sports journalists and commentators was a one-horse race to the title, leading to apathy among the supporters of the other clubs. That was the basis for “Armageddon”. Although I never quite grasped why a one-horse race was somehow less interesting than a two-horse race if you weren’t one of the horses in with a chance.
Now that their Armageddon hasn’t happened, our journalists are focusing their mighty intellects on the issue of league reconstruction. Since Armageddon failed to frighten the SPL clubs into embracing Sevco last summer, it’s time to change tack. We need a pyramid system, apparently, the scales have dropped from the eyes of our journalists all of a sudden. Well, yes, we do need a pyramid system, and have done for the 55 years I’ve been watching football. Why was it never mentioned before, but now it’s top priority? And what does that have to with the SPL? Can someone explain? Can’t the SFA and SFL bring in a pyramid system without involving the SPL? It seems obvious to me, but, no, we need to restructure everything. Why? Because most SPL clubs are getting higher attendances without a Rangers in their midst?
This stinks to high heaven, and Thompson’s resignation surely means that dirty deeds are afoot. The SPL will be increased to whatever size it takes to ensure, along with all sorts of rules on ground capacity, stadium standards, etc, etc, that the mission is accomplished. And that mission, to which our ruling bodies are committed with the dedication of kamikaze pilots, is the immediate elevation of Rangers to the top flight of Scottish football. The interests of every other club in Scotland, large or small, will be sacrificed to achieve that aim. It has been all about that from day one.
And what really makes my blood boil is the fact TRFC should never have been given membership of the SFA. When the history of this saga is written, that will be seen as the key moment, the turning point. That was when all the force of the Scottish establishment (and not just the football establishment) was used to ensure that a Rangers continued to play in Scottish senior football. Compared to that corrupt piece of dirty work, the tax appeal, whatever the final outcome, is just a sideshow.
There is a fundamental dichotomy between truth – and the MSM who either select information in such a way as to distort truth, or who simply fail to report or who tell blatannt lies.
Most Rangers fans choose to believe anything other than the truth as the truth would mean that they support a team a few months old – na dthey are in SFL 3 as a reward and not a punishment. their new club is a financial basketcase run by unknown individuals whose entire agenda appears to be to fleece them of their hard earned cash – and ven at that they have no guarantees as to their future finances or survival.
Essentially the b log must continue as is – eventually when the MSM are found to have lied to them again and their new incarnation folds then they need somewhere to turn to to find out the truth.
If the blog decides to adopt a “balanced” approach to Rangers and allows another interpretation of their actions and status which is wholly false to go unchallenged in order to attract the moderate wing of the Rangers support then it loses its integrity and purpose.
I would like to iterate my support for all rangers fans who bought tickets in good faith for the game against Elgin at the weekend. Thr actions of elgin , however motivated , were utterly incompetent and caused considerable inconvenience for all concerned.
I am pleased that the SFL have acted swiftly and proportionately in dealing with Elgin.
That is a balanced approach – condemning genuine happenings which have a deleterious effect on fans regardless of who they support.
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:02
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Didn´t the use of “Armageddon” refer to finance rather then competitiveness ?
The triumphilist irony being employed on here when using this phrase may be a little hasty and misplaced. I think you need 2 rounds of fixtures (22 games) so as to give an accurate reflection of average attendences, this probably being the most direct immediately measurable on-going factor.
At the end of the season we´ll be in a better place to see how the financial health of the SPL and indeed the rest of Scottish football is getting on.
So whilst the use of the A word alongside the timescale given was without doubt a scare tactic, the actual danger is still there. Not so much a sudden implosion but a steady drift towards it.
Objectivity is your best friend for sound analysis.
————–
I agree with that jock. To be fair to Donaster his use of the A word was also about the need for league reform:
“Currently when a team gets relegated from the SPL, we find that it ends up in financial Armageddon,” Doncaster told STV. “It has a massively reduced income in the Second Division [sic]. What we’ve got to ensure is that financial gap between the top tier and the second tier is reduced.”
The creation of the SPL unfairly doomed many of the teams who we all grew up watching in Division 1 to a life of poverty. On the other hand, Doncaster was dropping hints of the collapse of the TV deal, which was not about to collapse. The implication perhaps being that the SPL would be uncompetitive and therefore unattractive without the big two?
But Keevins apparently linked Rangers to the A word when quoting Stuart Regan in a Talksport interview. The implication was that it was SFL1 for the Newco or apocalypse now.
It may indeed all look very different come May 2013, that that could also have to do with the 4 x a year tedium. At the moment though, the crowds look healthy, competition is close – especially since Celtic are not 20 points ahead as many were predicting. That might change once the European matches end. But if Celtic’s highly-paid imports cannot consistently man up to the SPL challenge, and only give their best in Europe, then this season might have a twist in the tail. As long as the outcome looks iffy and Celtic blow hot and cold then fans of other teams will surely turn out in force thinking this most competitive season in many a year could be their time.
Poor old Elgin City might be a candidate for Armagedden though. Amazing how prompt the SFL can act. Within a few days a fine, and a bill for expenses. Help their collective boabs. Bet they’re wishing Rangers had been dumped in SFL1!
John Clarke
The Wobblies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World
Not in the Wiki, but the general wisdom in Glasgow Trades Council in the late 70s was that the name had come about because many workers of Chinese origin had difficulty initialising the initialism. When they tried to say IWW it came out as “wobber”
employment – down
bills – up
wage rises – down
spare cash – down
general trend in attendances over a number of years – downward i would suggest
objectivity and all that.
“Justice” comes swiftly to Elgin City.
Let’s hope that other transgressions incur such a speedy response from now on.
I’m almost interested that TRFC’s expenses are included in the decision. I mean, obviously they don’t need the cash or anything. A nice gesture in their stated aim of spreading goodwill around the diddy clubs would be for them to waive that part. What say you, Mr Charles?
“Lawyers for former Rangers owner Sir David Murray have called for a criminal investigation to be launched after details of his tax affairs were published in the media and online.”
It is true that a fundamental principle for HMRC employees is the maintenance of taxpayer confidentiality. Whether there has been a leakage from HMRC is, at present, a matter of conjecture. (For sure, some of what RTC posted, such as extracts from the agreement between Murray and Whyte didn’t look like obvious HMRC leak material.)
What is undeniable is that to the extent any information concerning David Murray’s tax affairs “published in the media and online” ultimately featured in the published FTTT hearing, the issue can only be one of timing. We were all going to find out sooner or later, unless Murray is seriously suggesting that nobody would see through his cunning Captain Black disguise.
So if we were all going to find out about it anyway, why make a big deal of it now? Could it be that there is a spirit of vindictiveness here, that the exposure of the aggressive tax avoidance sanctioned by Sir David has seriously, arguably fatally damaged his reputation and as such he will at least seek some sort of retribution on those who have scandalously wronged him by actually letting people find out the truth about what he has been up to? But that would have happened anyway, just some months later, wouldn’t it?
Could it be that what so angers Murray is that the “premature” knowledge of how Rangers aggressively avoided tax obligations on player salaries contributed to fans outrage over the summer about how the club had effectively cheated? This anger contributed to a mood where supporters would not accept a stitch up which saw the immediate return of a newco to the top flight. In short, the facts would have emerged, but the timing could have been delayed while they got away with it.
Beyond that, we should ask ourselves where would we be without the likes of RTC and largely on the back of his work, the forensic analysis by posters, Mark Daly’s documentary and Alex Thomson’s contributions? As Humble Pie observed in his excellent contribution here yesterday evening, a week after the FTTTT decision emerged and still the coverage in the MSM is pathetically superficial while simplistically distorting the substance that emerged. Without the scrutiny of the blogosphere, some in the MSM would have us believe that Rangers had been charged with illegally administering their tax affairs by a malicious HMRC with Rangers emerging victorious and vindicated. If Leverson considers any form of “public interest” defence for facts being made public, Rangers EBTs would be an outstanding example of what should qualify!
john clarke says:
Tuesday, November 27, 2012 at 19:55
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~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks JC – also Slim & Agrajag – for responses.Appreciated.
JC – any replies yet from MoD ? I’ve had nothing back from them although I got an immediate response from Poppyscotland. Wanted to delay that feedback till I had MoD view.
andytwenty3 says:
welcome to the blog Andy. Just to touch on a point you made about no Rangers blogger contributing or posting a blog here – this is something myself and TSFM have actively discussed. I even asked a couple of Rangers fans on twitter if they would like to contribute, but they never got back to me.
Now, I realise that the reputation, carried over from RTC is that the blog is anti-Rangers etc and that puts others off contributing. However, I think there has slowly been a change, especially with the increased moderation and a change to registered posters, and I think this is reflected by the number of TU your post, and that of a previous Rangers fan who posted yesterday have gathered.
If yourself, or another Rangers fan would like to contribute to this blog, you are more than welcome.
I myself remember singing less than savory songs in the stands, which, 20 years ago were accepted as banter, which today would see you locked up. I think we ALL did it here. It is heartwarming to hear that behind the lunatic fringe which seem to get all the headlines at Ibrox is a growing class of true supporters who are tuned in with the rest of Scottish football.
As a Saints fan, the one thing that amazed me about RTC was how it brought together fans of Celtic with the rest of Scottish football. It changed my perception of Old Firm fans, as I used to class Celtic and Rangers as one and the same – negatively. I hope posters such as yourself will help change my perception back to one and the same, albeit in a positive way as I now view the majority of Celtic fans I have had communication with in the last 6 months.
Has anyone heard anything about Charles Green’s investor roadshows? Anyone been to one, or know of anyone who has? The whole IPO thing has gone exceptionally quiet, it looks like no share offering this year, and January/February isn’t the best time to try to get money from your supporters. I was really looking forward to reading the prospectus, and finding out what a one-way bet this is (though maybe not in the direction Charles was boasting about a couple of months back).
andytwenty3 says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:05
————————————————————–
Welcome to the blog, I think the TU received so far should demonstrate that not everyone is anti-Rangers. I would urge you to contribute more and invite some of your like-minded mates along.
If the blog has not seen a Rangers minded article yet then I would assume that is due to nobody putting one forward, feel free to send one to the mods who I am sure will be happy to include it.
Just one thing about your post that I take issue with. You mention that a lot of Celtic fans appear to know what’s going on at Ibrox, well I can confirm that a few Celtic supporters on this blog (including myself) have either worked at Ibrox or continue to work at Ibrox so at the very least, we can tell you what is happening on the stands and in the pie stalls. We also have family members and friends who are Rangers fans and in the absence of a 100% survey of all fans, we need to take this small example as a representation of the wider support.
I used to be of the belief that forums were populated by the extreme element of any support but over the last few years I have seen some very good, well moderated sites free of all the bile (e.g. CQN). I think a lot of Celtic fans don’t believe that is the case with the Rangers forums as the known ones seem to have all the same extremists posting and commenting, in fact, the mods sometimes set the standard by their poor example. Maybe there are others there that are just as good as CQN, there certainly are for some of the other SPL teams. Some of the guys on these forums are smart, funny, have a strong dislike for Celtic or Weegies but I can still read them as they mostly talk sense and abstain from the bile. I think that is the main problem we have with RM and FF etc..
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/36730490824/is-scottish-football-fun-again
On how Scottish Football has, this season, decided to stop being boring and actually be rather enjoyable. And how that hasn’t stopped people turning off.
The vital stats from it:
Goals per game in the SPL compared to 11/12 – up 0.39
Amount of money you’d have made by putting money on favourites in every game – £0 (You’d actually be down)
Cumulative viewers compared to 10/11 (can’t find 11/12 figures ATM) – Down 1.03 million
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 00:00
@STVGrant: More as we get it, but Stephen Thompson resigning from SPL board under a week before big meeting on league reconstruction is… curious.
Any DU posters have any inside info on this resignation?
What is the likelihood of it being Sevco related?
I don’t have any inside information NOAG but Jim Spence has long been close to matters DUFC and he said on Sportsound yesterday evening that it was not about reconstruction, but a personality clash with SPL Chairmen Topping, although he couldn’t explain why ST wouldn’t just ride it out given that Topping’s tenure ends at the end of the year.
An article in the Scotsman comments:
“It is understood that the Dundee United chairman’s surprise decision follows a clash over a report that SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster’s handling of the Rangers crisis in the summer had caused his authority to be undermined and that he did not have the full support of his clubs to lead the latest moves to restructure the top flight.
The dispute is not related to any plans to fast-track Rangers back into the SPL earlier than their on-field achievements deserve. Doncaster was subsequently given a vote of confidence by the member clubs.”
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/spl-s-league-revamp-bid-hit-by-resignation-of-dundee-united-s-stephen-thompson-1-2662919
I’d be astonished if the SPL Chairmen were daft enough to attempt a fast track of The Rangers into the SPL but given their previous track record, continued vigilance has to be the order of the day, especially given the use of the word “invitations” in the context of SPL2.
is it ok to be printing “commercially confidential” information in a newspaper, in order to give a proper account of the facts to get to the truth !?
from todays daily record [online] (not purchased)
. . . But an investigation by this newspaper has found a private firm, now set to cash in on the Scottish factory’s closure, were handed the majority of the business last year
. . . Until now, the details of the contract have been kept secret under commercial confidentiality laws
stevensanph says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 09:31
welcome to the blog Andy. Just to touch on a point you made about no Rangers blogger contributing or posting a blog here – this is something myself and TSFM have actively discussed. I even asked a couple of Rangers fans on twitter if they would like to contribute, but they never got back to me.
A Rangers fan’s perspective / blog on here would be excellent. That doesn’t mean that we would agree but the more this blog has a reputation for aiming to set high standards for fairness and intelligent analysis of the facts, the more the MSM have to fear. So bring it on!
With that in mind, Adam’s guest slot on the Paul McConville blog is a welcome development. In a spirit of fairness I was particularly struck by the following:
“Every new RTC blog would have hundreds of opinions on how morally wrong the whole scheme was and how Rangers and David Murray should pay the price for being “morally reprehensible.” Notwithstanding reminding people they shouldn’t count their chickens before they hatch in relation to any findings, I also often asked, only to be shouted down, where people’s morality ended. …..
I just realised the answer today(see previous blog) as I envisioned the majority of contributors from the RTC blog having a coffee in Starbucks , using their I-phones on the Vodafone network to look up Amazon on Google in the search to buy a book about a team they don’t even support.”
I risk a blizzard of TDs for what I will say here but I recognise an element of fair comment in that. Amazon, Vodaphone, Starbucks, Google. Their tax obligations in the UK are, as the MSM (notably the Guardian) have picked up, to put it politely, efficiently minimised. If Rangers EBT useage was legal, albeit aggressive tax avoidance, then how different are they to other “efficiently” organised businesses?
Celtic and Rangers have both looked to maximise their profits over the years, even when that led to a relative disadvantage for their SPL competitors, whether with changes to home gate receipts, the 1/3 of tv income allocated to the top two, that preserved by the 11/1 majority, the 5% agency fees. Isn’t that just acceptable as what efficient businesses do, to make sure that your team makes even more money than the others to achieve greater domination, including by managing costs which include tax?
To counter this, firstly there is a debate about where aggressive avoidance leads. If all companies were as efficient in sheltering profits in offshore tax havens as those mentioned in the MSM recently, where would that leave the UK tax base for schools, hospitals and all the rest? Similarly if employees could be paid while avoiding PAYE on what was in reality their remuneration, what does that do for the services governments seek to provide in a civilised society?
Furthermore there is still an issue about whether what Rangers did was illegal. In some limited instances they have accepted that tax obligations did arise on what were treated as loans. Moreover the whole attitude of Rangers to the HMRC enquiry as reflected in the FTTT reflects a level of non co-operation bordering on the openly hostile, hardly like to curry favour in the court of public opinion judging morality.
There is also the obvious point that we still have to consider the requirements of declaring payments to players to the football authorities. It is difficult to see how Rangers can argue they didn’t break these rules given the facts in the FTTT.
What is cheating? To me what Rangers did was against the whole spirit of what a fair competition should be about, at the other end of the spectrum from sporting integrity. I would be extremely uncomfortable supporting such a club. But I’m realistic enough to recognise that, in the grubby real world we live in, they are at the very grey end of a grubby spectrum where doing the right thing for your business from one perspective is totally the wrong thing from another.
is it ok to be printing “commercially confidential” information in a newspaper, in order to give a proper account of the facts to get to the truth !?
from todays daily record [online] (not purchased)
. . . But an investigation by this newspaper has found a private firm, now set to cash in on the Scottish factory’s closure, were handed the majority of the business last year
. . . Until now, the details of the contract have been kept secret under commercial confidentiality laws
oops. here’s the link if anyone incase i’m accused of leaking the info –
and the legal eagles start looking for cannon fodder
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/revealed-fate-of-axed-remploy-staff-1460815
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:57
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Madbhoy
The bookies wouldn´t agree with you on the SPL not being a one horse race.
Skybet are offering 1/200 for a Celtic title win, William Hills a more “generous” 1/66 !!
The apparent apathy of Celtic players and indeed their home SPL support tends to support this.
There is at present a competitive race below Celtic for the European places and that there are a couple of the old big teams (Aberdeen & Hibs) making a push whilst Hearts drift downwards.
The notable story is Aberdeen, who have put together a reasonable squad, are supporting Celtic re.voting structure and seem to have a vision that will centre on second place and the money that goes with it. This would enable them to further develop squad as they try to become the temporary secondary force.
===================================
Why would Aberdeen, or anyone else, try to become a “temporary secondary force”.
I take it you are working on the assumption that New Rangers, without resorting to cheating, will make their way to the top of Scottish football. I think that is a very large assumption, given that they are financially unstable just now. They may well make their way through a couple of leagues, but do you really think the present team would walk the SFL first division. They are
leading SFL3 just now and will win it. However that is the fourth tier of football in this country. With all due respect to the players there, they are part time and mostly have full time jobs. they train for literally a few hours a week.
It is currently not even certain this club will survive, far less make it’s way to the top of Scottish football. Certainly for a few years. In my opinion they really need this share issue to be a success or they will struggle badly.
And also, if the fan base drops away, which is entirely possible over the next few years, then financially they could be not that much better off than some other teams. Particularly if they are still paying the overheads at Ibrox and Murray Park. More coming in, but more going out.
The assumption that the new Rangers will automatically get to the top of Scottish football in jig time is no more than that, and assumption. I do not currently see it as having much in the way of substance. Other than the historical arrogance of it’s support.
Re SDM’s decision to instruct Solicitors to lodge a complaint with the Procurator Fiscal.
Surely this is a complete non starter.
The legal experts on here will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but in the system that we have in this country would SDM not be required to submit to the Fiscal a note of what exactly he claims RTC, the BBC or whoever he is moaning about, have in their possession.
Any Fiscal before authorising any police investigation would need to take this to the next logical step and ask for copies of the paperwork which he alleges RTC or whoever improperly has.
Get my point?
And that is exactly where the matter would end.
To obtain any succesfull prosecution SDM would be required to produce the documents in Court and appear and give evidence, and there is not a hope in hell of him doing that, because at that stage we would know every last detail of the side letters. Who got what and when would be aired in open court and SDM doesnt want that.
So to RTC and others I say, face up to him, he is using bully boy tactics to try to shut down the Internet bampots. You will not stand alone. We are all RTC
and onto “football” related matters in the record,
the record are claiming that a man with previous conviction for VAT fraud is being touted as a new “investor” in “rangers”
[it made me wonder how this is possible, as rangers are in liquidation]
the story does not say it is the new club or the holding company or the parent company or sevco scotland, or the rangers football club ltd, or the rangers football club plc, or any other subsidiary of sevco 5088. i guess the man himself knows what company he is putting his money into and what he will be getting in return!
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ibrox-chiefs-roll-out-red-1460777
“Doncaster was subsequently given a vote of confidence by the member clubs.”
We are doomed.
wjohnston1 says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 10:36
Re SDM’s decision to instruct Solicitors to lodge a complaint with the Procurator Fiscal.
Surely this is a complete non starter.
The legal experts on here will no doubt correct me if I am wrong, but in the system that we have in this country would SDM not be required to submit to the Fiscal a note of what exactly he claims RTC, the BBC or whoever he is moaning about, have in their possession.
Any Fiscal before authorising any police investigation would need to take this to the next logical step and ask for copies of the paperwork which he alleges RTC or whoever improperly has.
Get my point?
And that is exactly where the matter would end.
To obtain any succesfull prosecution SDM would be required to produce the documents in Court and appear and give evidence, and there is not a hope in hell of him doing that, because at that stage we would know every last detail of the side letters. Who got what and when would be aired in open court and SDM doesnt want that.
So to RTC and others I say, face up to him, he is using bully boy tactics to try to shut down the Internet bampots. You will not stand alone. We are all RTC
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good point wj1, i myself wondered where he’s getting the money to pay the solocitors, but, the way it is worded, is he not looking for the crown to do the prosecuting for him, thus “we”
[the taxpayer], will pick up the bill for the ‘old bill’.
maybe the rtc and mark daly got the information from harry redknapps horse
[or was it his dog]…after all, the animal obviously has contacts and intelligence to have all that money in it’s very own bank account!?
greenockjack says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:57
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Madbhoy
The bookies wouldn´t agree with you on the SPL not being a one horse race.
Skybet are offering 1/200 for a Celtic title win, William Hills a more “generous” 1/66 !!
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Well I did not say they all had a chance to win it, that is why I pointed to the European place. But lets say Celtic are lucky enough to have a little run in Europe after Christmas, is it not realistic to expect some of the others to remain close to them at the top? Now who would have thought that at the start of the season?
I welcome any fan of any club who can type with at least one digit on each hand. I enjoyed ‘theglen2012’ previous post but dont agree with the stock conclusion of ‘well thats where we are’ to many of the items. Where we are would have been more twsited and unfair if voices hadnt been raised in unison against an obvious attempt at a stitch up in the summer.
Football in scotland could do well to redress the imbalance the old firm had enjoyed. The last time it was more even we had aberdeen and dundee united kicking ass. Alas the weans are not kicking footballs at the park they are kicking pixels on xbox. So the malaise in football is only a reflection of a broader malaise. Of course if football just isnt that important anymore, thats because the consumption of it rather than participation in it has saturated the fans. That and cheap lager at tescos. What else…ive fogotten where i was….
Morning all,
Just reading bits of the FTT result.
I’d like to ask your opinions on the legality of this little incident:
Mr Red slipped Ms Crimson a brown envelope containing minutes of trust meetings(I think) and asked her to lodge them as evidence.this was after he’d given his evidence!
Is this allowed.looks dodgy to me.
andytwenty3 says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:05
68 1 Rate This
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Great contribution Andy. Blog’s been crying out for the voice of Gers’ fans with their feet on the ground, so to speak.
On the point of the blue blogs that are so off-putting, do you reckon that they are populated by only a few? Or that those who are there are unrepresentative of the majority of the support?
Was glad to hear of the stony silence on the subway. Made me wonder a wee bit about how factional the support really is because tuning in to Rangers TV last year I could hear the Songs of the Dinosaurs quite clearly. My heart sank, to be honest.
Agrajag
I welcome and agree with much of your arguement but would qualify it slightly.
If Green holds their finances together, keeps their cost base in check and hopes that no other institutional blocks like say a points deduction for dual contracts comes their way then continuing average home gates of say 40k must eventually hold sway. It will allow new Rangers to rebuild a squad to get back to certainly the 1st Division and probably the premier thereafter. I’d agree a very competitive 1st will be their biggest hurdle to an immediate return. Survival of the fittest and all that. Once there it will also be interesting to see how they treat others and are treated by other teams – see comments below re Celtic also in this regard.
I would reiterate that titles being discounted will make no fundamental difference to this process (nor that it should unless of course an agreement was signed in August to the contrary to allow an otherwise illegitimate entry to the third Div) in fact it’ll probably add a few onto the gate to support the enlarged chip on the shoulder.
Survival of the fittest is just that. Fit. Clubs carrying massive mortgages on grounds to pay off historic failed ST debts (or exiting consortia), or indeed paying huge rents if they don’t own their stadia at all are less fit. That stands to reason.
An interesting factor for me is Celtic’s response. Had the one team league come true (and I agree bookies odds, two games in hand and shallow squads elsewhere suggest it will eventually) AND they had not done as well in Europe would a/ the victor wanyama’s of this world hang around and b/ would their board support future investment to the level we have seen in the past. I would suggest not. Why win the league by a country mile when you can win it in April by a couple of games? To be clear I don’t consider a two horse race in the same circumstances as a solution to this point..
Similarly the failure of 2nd place currently to likely access the CL money pot will keep the diddies in their place I suspect so I’m not holding my breath that a sustainable “new firm” will emerge regrettably. You will also be aware of that peculiar characteristic in scottish football of going on a winning run, then going to Glasgow to play for the draw I’m sure.
As a fervent diddy this all hacks me off, but not to the point of ignoring commercial reality. I am not a journalist remember! My train of thought in this particular regard – ok its a rant now pure and simple – is on the basis you have (or eventually will have) two teams with a natural advantage, their home gates. Do they need propogated further in terms of finances and coverage? On that point I am sure we can agree.
andytwenty3 says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 08:05
Great post Andy. While a Killie fan, I admit that I have been at times more interested in the sociological aspects of this whole affair and yet have fallen foul of SDM’s apocryphal warning. However to many, the view was exacerbated by the lack of reasoned debate emanating from RFC and it’s associated blogosphere. It has in many ways been a microcosm of so many factors in recent Scottish life bundled up in a very passionate, juicy way with a seemingly straightforward narrative that fans could grab hold of: Rangers Bad.
This isn’t true. While I disagree with the FTT results and believe that the real meat of the event is still to come, it is true that this case – more about the base greed of modern business and the football world – came to symbolise and encompass more than that. Unfortunate but understandable considering the part football plays in many peoples lives, none more so than the in the West of Scotland. It is more than a game as the last year has shown. I grudgingly agree that many of my Blog Idols have at times fallen foul of the hubris that results from a closed narrative – close but not dangerously so. However it’s worth noting that this unchecked approach can take us somewhere perilously close to what has happened to much of the MSM.
Rangers have been found wanting too. With no articulate defender, the onslaught from others became a self-perpetuating argument as even the most half-formed accusations against RFC were met solely by bullyboy tactics or illogical bile thus feeding the image of a group of fans unwilling to view the alleged misdeeds of their club and its custodians in any realistic way. The platform offered to some has been ill-chosen and further added to this. Goram, Hately, Graham, Jardine and McCoist, while passionate, had some glaring flaws at the heart of their arguments as did SDM who now bizarrely is seeking to rewrite history.
It became on open goal.
Your post is a welcome break in this narrative and it is should be the start of more posters from RFC entering the fray. It is time everyone took a step back and looked at the lay of the land here. Where we have been. Why have all sides reacted in such ways and importantly where do we go from here. Posters have acknowledged, myself included, that the much time on RTC and TSFM changed my opinion of Celtic fans who I had also considered to be the same side of a rather unsavoury coin. If Rangers and Celtic – eternally linked despite your protestations – wish to have a position as the two eminent clubs in Scotland, it’s time this was applied in all realms of their activities.
This debacle has also shown that all debate needs its natural checks and balances. It’s time you guys helped us all answer that call.
bbc claiming ‘FANS’ WANT CHANGE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20524021
Hmmmmm “illegally transmitting and disclosing personal data”
there indeed, in words, is the nub…… where exactly in Rangers Tax Case blog was “personal information” relating to Mr Black “disclosed” or “transmitted”?….. anyone? anyone?
No-one can point me to it because the blog has been ostensibly removed.
But you equally cannot point me to it because I know and you know (the regular readers, lurkers and posters from RTC know) that the above statement is false.
No personal information relating to Mr Black was ever “disclosed” or “transmitted”.
RTC thoughts? Perhaps. Opinions? perhaps, yes. Perhaps based on information they had seen, who knows. But one thing I am certain of I do not recall ever seeing any document relating to Mr Blacks “personal tax affairs”!
But we know already that, don’t we!
The question therefore should be ….. WHY THE THREAT?
TEST….trying to post an article, but doesn’t seem to be appearing. Am I on the naughty step?
ok, without the link – from rangers official site
CHARLES GREEN has expressed his anger and dismay at the timing of the verdict of the First Tier Tax Tribunal as it has massively affected the current status of Rangers.
It was finally revealed last week that Rangers had won the tax case brought by HMRC in relation to Employee Benefit Trusts used during the reign of Sir David Murray for a number of players and some staff.
Despite a concerted campaign from certain quarters, which was often hateful, that decided that Rangers were guilty of “cheating” it has been proved that is not the case.
The most important aspect of it all, however, is that had this verdict been delivered in May or June then Rangers would:
Still be a member of the SPL
Have retained all of their players
Have received their £2.5million prize money
Not be hamstrung by a player registration embargo
For Charles Green has revealed that a Company Voluntary Agreement to come out of administration would have been successful and the horrors of the summer would have been avoided.
Speaking exclusively to RangersTV he said: “The thing that turned many people against Rangers, quite wrongly in my opinion, was the spectre of EBTs and to have that case awarded in favour of Murray Group has been a substantial step.
“I think the question is when something was tried in January why did it take 11 months to get an opinion out there?
“When you look at the numbers now, Ticketus would have been the single biggest creditor and they were inclined to support the CVA so things could have been substantially different.
“What we shouldn’t start getting carried away with is that this club would still have gone into administration. I don’t think there is any chance that this wouldn’t have happened.
“However, when the verdict came out would have changed things dramatically but my job now is to take the club forward.
“If a CVA had gone through we would still be playing in the SPL and perhaps even be playing in Europe.
“We said from day one that the CVA was our preferred route. It does get you really annoyed to think that all of this hate and all the problems that the fans have had to endure were for no real reason.
“You have to remember that the case was against the Murray Group because Rangers at that time was a subsidiary of the Murray Group.
“So the first position is for Sir David Murray and his advisors to decide what they will do next.
“I have read and a number of our fans will have done the same that Sir David is unhappy with a number of issues and so with his legal advisors he will be looking at all the options open to him.
“For me as CEO of Rangers it’s a different thing and I have to focus on the future and not on the past.
“We are where we are. We have said in our presentations and through the business plan that we will do what we said we would do – and what Ally said he would do – and that’s get the team out on the park week in week out and get promotion and work our way to the top division – whatever that top division is called.”
TheBlackKnight TBK says:
Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 11:52
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It’s a bluff, in my opinion. A vague threat aimed at deterring bampots.
McAlpinesque in its audacity.
I’ll do Traynors Article for him
RANGERS CEO SAYS HE WILL PLAY INTHE PREMIER LEAGUE
Rangers CEO today sensationally said this exclusively to the DR (via its Rangers TV medium) and he also said some other stuff that may or may not have been factually correct, who can tell, not me I’m just a journalist.
Moving on…
APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR THE CAPITALS – NOT THROUGH ANGER OR SHOUTING – JUST FOR EMPHASIS!
“CHARLES GREEN has expressed his anger and dismay at the timing of the verdict of the First Tier Tax Tribunal as it has massively affected the current status of Rangers.”
+++++ SURELY HE MEANS THE*RANGERS?+++++++
“Despite a concerted campaign from certain quarters, which was often hateful, that decided that Rangers were guilty of “cheating” it has been proved that is not the case.”
+++++NO NOTHING IS PROVED YET THAT IS WHY THE TRIBUNAL NEEDS TO CONTINUE AND HMRC NEED TO APPEAL THE FTT(T) MARGINAL VERDICT+++++++
The most important aspect of it all, however, is that had this verdict been delivered in May or June then Rangers would:
Still be a member of the SPL – NO THEY WOULD NOT! THEY ENTRED ADMINISTRATION OWING OVER £55MILION OUTWITH TAX CASE
Have retained all of their players – NO THEY WOULD NOT – AS WAS EVIDENT
Have received their £2.5million prize money – NO THEY WOULD NOT – DIFFERENT CLUB
Not be hamstrung by a player registration embargo – NO THEY WOULD NOT THAT WAS FOR AN ENTITRELY DIFFERENT MATTER
+++++ NONE OF THE ABOVE IS EITHER TRUE OR ACCURATE – FANTASY!!!+++++++
GREEN IS ON VERY DANGEROUS GROUND HERE….. HE IS NOT RANGERS, THEY ARE BEING LIQUIDATED!
edgarblamm: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 at 12:10
INDEED EDGAR INDEED 😉