UEFA Club Licensing. – To Comply or not to Comply ?
On 16 April 2018 The UEFA Club Financial Control Body (CFCB) adjudicatory chamber took decisions in the cases of four clubs that had been referred to it by the CFCB chief investigator, concerning the non-fulfilment of the club licensing criteria defined in the UEFA Club Licensing and Financial Fair Play Regulations.
Such criteria must be complied with by the clubs in order to be granted the licence required to enter the UEFA club competitions.
The cases of two clubs::
Olympique des Alpes SA (Sion Switzerland )
and
FC Irtysh (Kazakhstan)
are of particular interest to those following the events under which the SFA awarded a UEFA License to Rangers FC in 2011 currently under investigation by the SFA Compliance Officer because
- The case documentation tell us how UEFA wish national associations to apply UEFA FFP rules
- The cases tell us what might have happened to Rangers FC in 2012 had they not gone into liquidation and as a consequence avoided the same type of sanctions that UEFA applied to Sion and Irtysh.
FC Sion (Olympique des Alpes SA)
Here we are told how the Swiss FL and then the UEFA CFCB acted in respect of FC Sion in 2017 where a misleading statement was made in the Sion UEFA licensing application.
Full details can be read at
but this is a summary.
In April 2017 the Swiss FL (SFL) granted a licence to Sion FC but indicated that a Disciplinary case was pending.
In July 2017 the CFCB, as part of their licence auditing programme, carried out a compliance audit on 3 clubs to determine if licences had been properly awarded. Sion was one of those clubs.
The subsequent audit by Deloitte LLP discovered Sion had an overdue payable on a player, amounting to €950,000, owed to another football club (FC Sochaux ) at 31st March 2017 as a result of a transfer undertaken by Sion before 31st December 2016, although the €950,000 was paid in early June 2017.
Deloitte produced a draft report of their findings that was passed to SFL and Sion for comment on factual accuracy and comment on the findings. Sion responded quickly enabling Deloitte to present a final report to the CFCB Investigation Unit. In response to the Deloitte final report Sion stated:
“il apparaît aujourd’hui qu’il existait bel et bien un engagement impayé découlant d’une activité de transfert. Ce point est admis” translated as
“it now appears that there was indeed an outstanding commitment arising from transfer activity. This is admitted”
What emerged as the investigation proceeded was that the Swiss FL Licensing Committee, after granting the license in April and as a result of a Sochaux complaint of non-payment to FIFA, had reason to refer Sion’s application to their Disciplinary Commission in May 2017 with regard to the submission of potentially misleading information by FC Sion to the SFL on 7th April 2017 as part of its licensing documentation.
Sion had declared
“Written confirmation: no overdue payables arising from transfer activities”, signed by the Club’s president, stating that as at 31 March 2017 there were no overdue payables towards other football clubs. In particular, the Club indicated that the case between FC Sion and FC Sochaux regarding the transfer of the player Ishmael Yartey was still under dispute.
The SFL Disciplinary Commission came to the conclusion that FC Sion had no intention to mislead the SFL, but indeed submitted some incorrect licensing documentation; the SFL Disciplinary Commission further confirmed that the total amount of €950,000 had been paid by the Club to FC Sochaux on 7 June 2017. Because of the inaccurate information submitted, the SFL Disciplinary Commission decided to impose a fine of CHF 8,000 on the Club.
Whilst this satisfied the SFL Disciplinary process the CFCB deemed it not enough to justify the granting of the licence as UEFA intended their FFP rules to be applied.
Sion provided the CFCB with a number of reasons on the basis of which no sanction should be imposed. In particular, the Club admitted that there was an overdue payable as at 31 March 2017, but stated that the mistake in the document dated 7 April 2017 was the result of a misinterpretation by the club’s responsible person for dealing with the licence (the “Club’s licence manager”), who is not a lawyer. The Club affirmed that it never had the intention to conceal the information and had provisioned the amount due for payment and that, in any case, it has already been sanctioned by the SFL for providing the wrong information.
The CFCB Investigation Unit accepted that the Sion application, although inaccurate, was a one off misrepresentation and not a forgery, (as in intended to deceive ) but that nevertheless an overdue payable did exist at 31st March and a licence should not have been granted.
Based on their findings, the CFCB Chief Investigator decided to refer the case to the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber and suggested a disciplinary measure to be imposed on FC Sion by the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber, such measure consisting of a fine of €235,000, corresponding to the UEFA Revenues the Club gained by participating in the 2017/2018 UEFA Europa League.
The CFCB Investigatory Chamber submitted that it was appropriate to impose a fine corresponding to all the UEFA revenues the Club gained by participating in the competition considering the fact that FC Sion should not have been admitted to the competition for failing to meet one of its admission criteria.
The Adjudicatory Chambers took all the circumstances (see paras 91 to 120 at http://tiny.cc/i8sxsy ) into consideration and reached the following key decisions.
- FC Sion failed to satisfy the requirements of Article 49(1) of the CL&FFP Regulations and it obtained the licence issued by the SFL not in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
- FC Sion breached Articles 13(1) and 43(1)(i) of the CL&FFP Regulations. (Documents complete and correct)
- To exclude FC Sion from participating in the next UEFA club competition for which it would otherwise qualify in the next two (2) seasons (i.e. the 2018/19 and 2019/20).
- To impose a fine of two hundred and thirty five thousand Euros (€235,000) on FC Sion.
- FC Sion is to pay three thousand Euros (€3,000) towards the costs of these proceedings.
Comment in respect of the award of a UEFA Licence in 2011 to Rangers FC.
It is now public knowledge that an actual liability of tax due before 31stDecember 2010 towards HMRC, was admitted by Rangers FC before 31st March 2011.
This liability was described as “potential” in Rangers Interim accounts audited by Grant Thornton.
“Note 1: The exceptional item reflects a provision for a potential tax liability in relation to a Discounted Option Scheme associated with player contributions between 1999 and 2003. A provision for interest of £0.9m has also been included within the interest charge.”
The English Oxford Dictionary definition of potential is:
Having or showing the capacity to develop into something in the future.
Which was not true as the liability had already been “developed” so could not be potential.
This was repeated by Chairman Alistair Johnson in his covering Interim Accounts statement
“The exceptional item reflects a provision for a potential tax liability in relation to a Discounted Option Scheme associated with player contributions between 1999 and 2003. “ where he also added
“Discussions are continuing with HMRC to establish a resolution to the assessments raised.”
This could be taken as disputing the liability but In fact the resolution to the assessments raised would have been payment of the actual liability, something that never happened.
In the Sion case it was accepted the misleading statement was a one off misrepresentation, but at the monitoring stages at June 2011 in Ranger’s case the status of the liability continued to be misrepresented and in September the continuing discussions reason was repeated, along with a claim of an instalment paid whose veracity is highly questionable.
The Swiss FL Licensing Committee did at least refer the case to their Disciplinary Committee when they realised a misleading statement might have been made. The SFA however in August 2011, when Sherriff Officers called at Ibrox for payment of the overdue tax , did no such thing and pulled up the drawbridge for six years, one that the Compliance Officer is now finally charged with lowering.
The case of FC Irtysh of Kazakhstan is set out in full at http://tiny.cc/y9sxsy and is a bit more straightforward but is nevertheless useful to compare with events in 2011 in Scotland.
Unlike Rangers FC , FC Irtysh properly disclosed that they had an overdue payable to the Kazakhstan tax authorities at the monitoring point at 30th June 2017. This caused the CFCB Investigatory Unit to seek further information with regard to the position at 31st March
It transpired that Irtysh had declared an overdue payable at 31st March but cited their financial position (awaiting sponsor money) as a reason for non payment to the Kazakhstan FA who accepted it and granted the licence. The outstanding tax was paid in September 2107.
The outcome of the CFCB Investigation was a case put to the CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber who agreed with the CFCB Investigation Unit that a licence should not have been granted and recommended that Irtysh be fined the equivalent of the UEFA prize money, (that had been withheld in any case whilst CFCB investigated.)
The CFCB Adjudicatory Chamber however decided that a fine was not sufficient in sporting deterrent terms and ruled that:
- FC Irtysh failed to satisfy the requirements of Article 50bis(1) of the CL&FFP Regulations and it obtained the licence issued by the FFK not in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
- To withhold four hundred and forty thousand Euros (€440,000) corresponding to the UEFA revenues FC Irtysh gained by participating in the 2017/2018 UEFA Europa League.
- To exclude FC Irtysh from participating in the next UEFA club competition for which it would otherwise qualify in the next three (3) seasons (i.e. the 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 seasons). This sanction is deferred for a probationary period of (3) three years. This exclusion must be enforced in case the Club participates again in a UEFA club competition having not fulfilled the licence criteria required to obtain the UEFA licence in accordance with the CL&FFP Regulations.
- FC Irtysh is to pay three thousand Euros (€3,000) towards the costs of these proceedings. “
The deferral was because unlike Rangers FC, FC Irtysh had properly disclosed to the licensor the correct & accurate financial information required, so the exclusion was deferred for a probationary period of (3) years.
Comment in respect of the award of a UEFA Licence in 2011 to Rangers FC.
From the foregoing it could be deduced that had Rangers FC qualified for the Champions League (or European League) and not gone bust as a result and so not entered liquidation BUT it became public knowledge by 2012 that a licence had been wrongly and possibly fraudulently granted then
- Rangers would have been fined the equivalent of their earnings from their participation in the UEFA competitions in 2011
- At least a two year ban from UEFA Competitions would have been imposed, but more likely three in view of repeated incorrect statements.
- The consequences of both would have been as damaging for Rangers survival as the real life consequences of losing to Malmo and Maribor in the qualifying rounds of the Champions and European Leagues.
Karma eh!
Interestingly in the UEFA COMPLIANCE AND INVESTIGATION ACTIVITY REPORT 2015 – 2017 , the CFCB investigatory chamber recommended that both the Kazakhstan FA and Swiss FA as licensors
“pay particular attention to the adequate disclosure of the outstanding amounts payable towards other football clubs, in respect of employees and towards social/tax authorities, which must be disclosed separately;
Would the same recommendation apply to the Scottish FA with regard to their performance in 2011 and will the SFA responses thereafter to shareholders in a member club be examined for compliance with best governance practice by the SFA Compliance Officer investigating the processing of the UEFA Licence in 2011?
This would be a welcome step in fully restoring trust in the SFA.
Sevco scotland LTD has agreed to accept all conditions relating to RFC.
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I was looking for this the other day.
Homunculus
I think those charges are very clever and same would have to have been used for LNS Commission had full facts been disclosed.
That they weren’t should mean a revisit to LNS if JDPT uphold the charges.
I think the 5 Way pre dates the establishment of the LNS Commission in Aug 2012.
REDETINMAY 17, 2018 at 14:47
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How, when and on whose authority were trophies and titles sold, transferred or otherwise passed to the newco (Sevco Scotland)?
Did SFA or the then SPL have a say. Were these trophies and titles treated as “assets”?
Was there any precedent eg Airdrieonians, Third Lanark, Gretna?
CLUSTER ONEMAY 17, 2018 at 19:22
Sevco scotland LTD has agreed to accept all conditions relating to RFC.
__________________________________________________
What are you suggesting that means CO ?
Makes you wonder why Chester Fc and Chester City are two different Clubs?
I mean to say they play in the same colour strips,in the same Ground and in front of the same fans and yet…
It’s a funny old game Saint” Jimmy Greaves
THELAWMAN2MAY 17, 2018 at 10:50
Right now i owe the Electricity company for the Electricity i have used in the last 17 days but my bill is not overdue. Until i receive the final bill and it says i must pay.
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How many reminders did you receive before the bill became final?
THELAWMAN2MAY 17, 2018 at 17:51
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EX LUDOMAY 17, 2018 at 17:32
Thank you Ludo. My first business call this morning was 1pm Hong Kong Time so an early rise for that. Fortunately just finished my last call 10 minutes ago. House to myself for 4 days and keyboard at the ready. Making up for lost time.
Coincidence?. I don’t think so.
Bryan says Ticketus paid season ticket money to rangers,who lent it to wavetower,who paid the bank debt.
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I think i read something about this today.Sorry i don’t have the time to scroll back.I just found it while looking for something else.
Could it be as simple a thing as the English Fa dealt with Chester Fc in the way the Scottish Fa failed to do with Sevco Scotland/The Rangers International Brigada Space Station Fc?
If only a legally sound person could simply step forward and explain these ever so confusing happenings ?
Still waiting …
Our plagiarist pal gave a new twist to his art he “faithfully transcribed” rather than “cut and paste” something. It is almost as if he was adding a gloss of legal respectability to what he is doing.
I guess that there is something of that in any use of such a word or similar when engaging in disputation. I may change my name from puzzled to something making me appear to know what I am talking about. BFBLexViri has a ring -a bit of Latin that sounds vaguely legalistic
I am sure that either Lex or Viri are not in the correct cases- I last studied Latin in 1976 -and got my A in the O Grade by dint of hard work and memory rather than talent.
Beauty from Gordon Dalziel on Clyde this evening “if they can afford £30,000 per week for Alves Pena and so on then the can find the same for Defoe” Although these guys claim they know nothing of finance they should realise that once as money is spent it does not split itself into the money spent and another similar amount.
Ponzi schemes never last and there is the smack of that down Govan Way
This is what i hoped to add to an earlier post,but time is not on my side.
I wonder how many reminders a club received before the bill became a demand to pay?
BFBPUZZLEDMAY 17, 2018 at 20:18
Beauty from Gordon Dalziel on Clyde this evening.
——————
I can top that
Mark Allen. Believes the FREE Transfer capture of the former Burnley midfielder is a statement of intent.
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More words are used in this article like GEMS and HANDLE THE PRESSURE AND PLAY FOR THE SHIRT.
—————Someone had better tell Level 5 they are still using the old Mark Warburton book of phrases.
Time to write something new lads,the speal is getting repetative from L5 we have read it all before.
BFBPUZZLED
MAY 17, 2018 at 20:18
“if they can afford £30,000 per week for Alves Pena and so on then the can find the same for Defoe”
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Thing is Gordon, they cant afford that.
The business is running at a loss, a simple way of describing that is to say they are spending more than they are earning.
So, bottom line, they can’t afford £30,000 a week for the players you mentioned.
Though to be fair, as Walter Smith said it’s Rangers the normal rules don’t apply.
Reading back through all the posts reminded me of this:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE
But I cannot remember who originally pointed it out.
Homunculus
I forgot about the deceptive power and grace of “man maths” that calculation which makes one believe that something is affordable when it is not. Mostly this process relates to some thing which a man regards as essential and calmer heads bar just by a withering look , generally on the basis that it is another toy or an “upgrade to another item in perfect working order”
One of my main weaknesses in that man maths area is headphones. I admit to having more of these than a pair of lugs tends to need but I am always looking to the next thing in seeking the perfect sound- I have a pair of Grado earphones justifiable at about £100 ish I also have a pair of Grado”s with hand turned zebra wood earpieces all because of man maths.
Having said that I do need a watch timing machine “for business” The little woman with extra sensory perception may have something to say. (Little woman is a reference to size and gender not some sexist comment – I am reconstructed that way)
BFBPUZZLED
MAY 17, 2018 at 20:57
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Perhaps Walter was onto something after all.
The laws of physics change as one approaches a singularity, all sort of weirdness happens.
Mayhap it is the same with the laws of economics and Ibrox Stadium. Things just get weird and the normal rules no longer apply.
In both sets of circumstances things become infinitely dense.
I was in Court all day today. I will go in again tomorrow, and will wait till then to do a report.
It was a day of nothing but references to and quotation from judgments made in several national jurisdictions- Scotland, England, Trinidad and Tobago, the U.S.A, Canada.
Mr Fairley cited judgments to show that what the Crown office and PF service had done in prosecuting the Pursuers breached the European Convention on Human Rights. ( I assume that Mr Currie had presented yesterday his arguments against the Absolute Immunity of the Lord Advocate)
Mr Moynihan in his turn spent nearly the whole day citing and quoting from numerous cases, in support of his view that the Lord Advocate in civil cases is absolutely immune from claims for damages.
Case continues tomorrow.
THELAWMAN2MAY 17, 2018 at 00:59
I read through the disciplinary tribunal determination , a tribunal that CW didn’t attend , at which he wasn’t represented and to which he supplied no documentation . One charge was that he had failed to disclose the fact that he had been disqualified as a director for seven years . Since he didn’t respond , he couldn’t have lied . So where did he lie ? Just because you don’t admit to something doesn’t mean you’re lying about it . SDM didn’t admit to CW that the wee tax case was current , he just didn’t put the info into the media room . He declined to publicise it ,same as CW declined to publicise his ban . And all those years supporting SDM’s Rangers and you never twigged that there was corruption afoot ?
I must admit, maybe its because we are heading into the funny season but all the ‘technical stuff’ with regard to the exact interpretation of rules, that in themselves are vague and unclear, is becoming tiresome.
While I appreciate the arguments have to be won it terms of having a definitive answer to what has gone before, the bigger picture is clear to anyone who wants to see it.
We are now in the territory of knowing there is a member of the golf club who continually switches balls, he always has an extra club in his bag, he claims to magically find balls that were otherwise well lost and steals a few feet at putts. It is all done behind fellow players backs but everyone he plays with knows it doesn’t smell right. If people try to call them out they are then threatened to the nth degree and being decent folk trying to live an easy trouble free life a good deal of the fellow members can do without the hassle. Yes the guy puts up a decent prize in the annual club raffle but does such a minor pro outweigh the (regular and consistent) cons.
As discussed the other day, Lawman2 can argue the toss of selected and narrow points regarding rules and timescales but the reality of the big picture is we have a club whose track record in upholding sporting integrity along with a range of other issues is rank rotten. Pure and simple.
Forget the legal matters, forget the technicalities of when bills become overdue payables.
Just tell us exactly what it is that Rangers / T’Rangers stand for these days and what they have to offer the modern Scottish Game and how things can move forward given such an unresolved horrendous past.
Paddy, nae luck pal. I read the BBC report on the game. Sounds as if Livi were more up for it. Still it’s only half time so to speak.
Sorry your day in court was so boring, repetitive and tedious, JC. It could have been worse though. You could have been on here instead. (With apologies to the quality posters today. You know who you are.)
JIMBOMAY 17, 2018 at 22:35
Cheers, Jimbo ,but we didn’t look any better than in recent games , where points were gained as much by luck as by performance . We’ll find out on Sunday if we’re good enough to stay up .If not , we’ll get all those wee jaunts to the Highlands that the CFC and TRFC guys love so much !
What is all this Scottish Law for a club,and overdue SFA money and tax and embargos they speak off.
By Ewing Grahame10:30PM BST 03 Jun 2012
Undeterred, they are preparing to return there in an attempt to force discredited Rangers owner Craig Whyte to pay the £200,000 fine handed down to him by the same independent panel on April 23, at the same time as the transfer embargo was issued.The venture capitalist described the fine as “a complete joke,” adding: “It makes no difference to my life whatsoever – good luck collecting the money.”
Whyte had been given 30 days in which to pay the fine and that deadline passed 11 days ago.This week, though, the SFA’s legal team will be instructed to pursue the Monaco-based venture capitalist for the money.
With a transfer ban apparently unlawful, the SFA rules offer little respite for Rangers for bringing the game into disrepute over their non-payment of tax last season.The club, who currently owe more than £21million in tax, face ejection from the Scottish Cup or suspension or expulsion from the game in general unless a new tribunal rules the maximum £100,000 fine is sufficient for their non-payment.
The wisdom of Rangers’ court action has been called into question on two counts – they now face more severe punishment for their failure to pay tax plus further potential sanctions for taking the matter to court in defiance of FIFA and SFA rules.
Green, whose offer to creditors will be voted on on June 14, tonight recognised the club had placed themselves in a difficult situation but insisted they had little choice but to go to court.
Lord Glennie accepted Rangers’ argument that the SFA rules did not allow an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but the judge admitted himself the club could now be hit with a more severe punishment.
Throughout this process, the club, the administrators and most importantly the supporters have taken the view that any sanction against Rangers – due entirely to the misdeeds of individuals no longer at the club – should be proportionate. We and the administrators did not want to take the matter to a civil court at all. Our position has been endorsed by Lord Glennie in the Court of Session. The club was prohibited from appealing to CAS by the SFA’s own rules. The Judicial Review was not an appeal, rather it was the club exercising its right under Scots Law to have the court review whether or not the imposition of the transfer embargo was within the power of the tribunals of the Judicial Panel.
JIMBOMAY 17, 2018 at 22:35Cheers, Jimbo ,but we didn’t look any better than in recent games , where points were gained as much by luck as by performance . We’ll find out on Sunday if we’re good enough to stay up .If not , we’ll get all those wee jaunts to the Highlands that the CFC and TRFC guys love so much !
Thistle will win the next game this was the wake call required.
wottpiMay 17, 2018 at 22:13
‘..but the reality of the big picture is we have a club whose track record in upholding sporting integrity ‘
______________________
Not to mention that we have a football governance body which spat, or indeed, shat , on the very concept of sporting integrity by cobbling up the nonsense of the 5-Way agreement, and rigging the LNS enquiry, and refusing to have the full, open enquiry into the part played by the SFA in the transmission of inaccurate information to UEFA in order to get the UEFA licence for a club that was not entitled to such a licence.
Those who have nothing to hide revel in the truth.
Smarmy, glib, deceitful people hate being challenged and try to hide from the light of truth.
As do their PR people!
Some of whom, it seems to me, cannot read. They may have trouble with dealing with appendix problems!
JOHN CLARKMAY 18, 2018 at 00:50
the 5-Way agreement, and rigging the LNS enquiry, and refusing to have the full, open enquiry into the part played by the SFA in the transmission of inaccurate information to UEFA in order to get the UEFA licence for a club that was not entitled to such a licence.
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The next time some clown say’s to me “sporting integrity””sporting integrity”(for some reason,mostly comes from the ibrox persuasion.these days,as a counter for most things)
I will repeat the above by JC right in their face.
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God, i have woken in a good mood
WOTTPIMAY 17, 2018 at 22:13
We are now in the territory of knowing there is a member of the golf club who continually switches balls, he always has an extra club in his bag, he claims to magically find balls that were otherwise well lost and steals a few feet at putts. It is all done behind fellow players backs but everyone he plays with knows it doesn’t smell right. If people try to call them out they are then threatened to the nth degree and being decent folk trying to live an easy trouble free life a good deal of the fellow members can do without the hassle. Yes the guy puts up a decent prize in the annual club raffle but does such a minor pro outweigh the (regular and consistent) cons.
===================================
Excellently put WOTTPI. I see some bloggers forecasting Rangers may receive a European ban from the SFA on conclusion of the recent charges. Such a notion is fanciful in my view because (1) the threats that would follow simply wouldn’t be worth the hassle to the SFA and the Judicial Panel, and (2) it would be a serious hindrance to Gerrard’s quest to take Rangers to the top. Using your analogy of the cheating golfer, would the SFA really care if stealing a few feet at putts continues, or how often it has actually happened? As long as the ‘golfer’ and his many friends remain the intimidating, threatening group of people they are, nothing will happen. Should the ‘golfer’ win a tournament, it is most likely his reaction, and the reaction of his friends, would be dominated by spiteful, venomous triumphalism towards other golfers, rather than just celebrating his actual achievement.
In my view the ‘Golf Club Committee’ otherwise known as the SFA are officially attempting to draw a line under this matter and the most likely outcome is another LNS style farce. The media will be fully behind them so they have no worries about bad publicity.
WOODSTEINMAY 17, 2018 at 20:45
https://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/16/triggers-broom-theseus-ship-douglas-adams-golden-pavilion-sevco-rangers-whats-the-link-guest-post-by-adm/
Here is where I am at with the monumental clusterfuck that is or shall I say was Rangers Fc ( Still in Liquidation last time I looked):
What has passed has passed with them when they passed away.
What has been left behind however is a complicit SFA who are up to their knees ( luckily they rolled their expensive suit trouser legs up )In skullduggery.
it is they who are confusing the issues here because the simple fact of the matter is the Current incumbent business plying it’s trade out of Ibrox has nothing to do with the past transgressions of the previous incumbent business ie RFC 2102 P.L.C ( Formerly The Rangers Football Club Plc ).
I feel Celtic fans are being moved away from the actual issue here and that issue is the one issue that has been present since day 1 of the journey by the Phoenix Club out of Ibrox.
They aren’t Rangers Fc.
Any issues the SFA has regarding Licensing for Europe or otherwise should be pertaining to this Club and this Club only because the simple fact of the matter is the previous ship has sailed to Valhalla with HMS Clusterfuck.
Focus on the real issue here.
Rangers died end of.
SCOTTCMAY 18, 2018 at 10:29
I remember reading that. I think. It was so long ago. Just out of interest, “ADM” noted that there would be “real legal problems for Sevco to overcome it wants to trade as Rangers…” and wonder what he thought of that now and the current position?
justthefacts
You are right and you are wrong. It is a new club but it does all the same things as the old as do the followers it is indistinguishable (facts aside) and we’ll all know how that story ends.
SChadenfreude once, schadenfreude twice as Jonathon Richmond nearly sang…
Had the Titanic not set sail until the fires were out and repair work to the steel was concluded there would not have been the same effect when that particular side took in water, the reinforcing of the steel to allow for the containment of the water was never going to hold due to the damage done before setting sail.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/31/huge-fire-ripped-titanic-struck-iceberg-fresh-evidence-suggests/
If only responsible persons had not put greed before livliehoods things mght have been oh so different, but it crashed, it burned, and sank to its death. Remind of something similar.
CLUSTER ONE
MAY 17, 2018 at 19:22
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Sevco scotland LTD has agreed to accept all conditions relating to RFC. ……………………………………………………………………………………….
I believe the initial paragraphs to this statement are where the Big Lie was born.
From what I have read of SFA licencing, only a club, (incorporated or otherwise) can be a member of the SFA. In this document the “new” concept of Conditional Membership was given to Sevco Scotland Ltd, which suggests this membership was given to a company, not a club. As this is not possible within the licencing rules, we should read Sevco Scotland FC Ltd, for them to be eligible for SFA membership. The SFA deliberately avoided putting Football Club nomenclature alongside Sevco Scotland Ltd as they did not want them to be perceived as what they were, a new club.
Transfer of the RFC PLC full SFA membership took place a few days later, AFTER the match with Brechin. So, either Brechin didn’t play a football club, (they played some new company instead), or Sevco Scotland (FC) Ltd and Rangers FC PLC both held memberships of the SFA at the same time. Hence the need to transfer the RFC PLC membership to the new club.
From the SPFL archive;
Ramsdens are entering their second year of sponsorship of the SFL’s knock-out competition for First, Second and Third Division clubs and the pawnbroking and financial services company are delighted with what the competition has already given them during the first season of sponsorship.
Notice this competition is for “Second and Third Division clubs and no mention of companies being allowed to enter the competition. The draw is also listed there and has Brechin City v Dundee as the first tie in the North East. We know Sevco and Dundee switched places later.
So here’s a question for the continuation disciples;
Given RFC PLC were still a full member CLUB of the SFA on 29th July 2012, who played against Brechin City in the first round of the Ramsdens Cup?
I know from the match reports they were masquerading as Rangers, but this could not possibly be……
scottc
May 18, 2018 at 10:29
Thanks, I had forgotten where I first saw it.
Also in the comments:-
Project Walliams
July 17, 2012 at 3:27 am
That’s all very well for you extinctionists, but what about us physicists. ie is Charles Greene’s presence at both the SFL representing Sevco T’rangers and SPL representing oldco T’rangers proof that Schrodinger’s cat (the club) is both dead and alive at the same time?
WOODSTEINMAY 18, 2018 at 12:31
My difficulty with “same club”ers is that they get very animated when discussing the holding company as if it meant anything to them . Either it was just that ,a holding company , in distress ,that was targeted by an asset stripper and mortally wounded or it was the “club” . Why get all upset about a business , just because it owns another company that runs your football team . So what if Craig Whyte or anybody else did anything bad , it wasn’t to the club . Of course , the demise of that company affected the company that runs the football team, but it’s just the nature of business . But their reaction to the liquidation of that company suggests to me that they all know the truth, that the incorporated entity went under and its timeline ended . I still await the big reveal when a document showing the separation of the club from the incorporated company is produced , forcing us “haters” to eat our words .
And they are all wrong SJ.
https://twitter.com/philippeauclair/status/997427509812760576?s=21
So wrong stuff happens in all sorts of places. Don’t worry the tweet is in English (assuming the link works)
http://itsanewclub.blogspot.co.uk/
slimjimMay 18, 2018 at 13:08
JUSTTHEFACTS MAY 18 10.50.“Rangers died end of”.UEFA, SFA, SPFL, SFL, ECA &, A couple of LAW LORDS all say differently. Now that is a FACT and not just an opinion.
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While it may be a FACT that some of those bodies said they were the same club, someone saying something does not make the subject of their words a fact.
It is a FACT that Keith Jackson said that Craig Whyte was a Billionaire, many people, who wanted to believe him, believed him, but it did not make what Jackson said a FACT!
Centuries ago, the world’s greatest minds said that the world was flat, people believed them and took it as a fact. So, going by your reasoning, the world must be flat!
But here is a genuine FACT, it is, indeed, a documented fact, and not based on what someone, or anyone, said:
In 1899 Rangers Football Club incorporated, and became Rangers Football Club Limited.
Try disputing that fact! Tell us, who might it be that said anything different. Show us any reference to there being any separate entity, prior to 2012, that might indicate that prior to that year there was anything else at Ibrox that could be taken as a football club.
At best, when someone says something, all they are doing is giving their opinion, unless they back it with factual evidence, and clearly none of those you cite did that, for if they had done, you would be citing that evidence instead of making the stupid claim that what they said is a FACT, just because they said it.
What is also a fact is that they say so solely on advice provided by a set of football authorities with a vested interest in a particular outcome.
What is also a fact is that those very same football authorities have so far been ‘duped’ by David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green and Dave King.
What is also a fact is that that makes those football authorities entirely untrustworthy.
What is also a fact is that the opinion of Rangers* fans like you, fans who not only have the same vested interest in a particular outcome but were also ‘duped’ by Murray, Whyte, Green and King, is not trustworthy.
“Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
Fool me three or four times and I lose the right to be taken seriously.
https://twitter.com/mcgowan_stephen/status/997451997828796416?s=21
Monsieur Platini dans le hot eau.
Woodstein
I think they call it quantum entanglement which failed in the RFC because of too much of both quantum (of debt) and entanglement (with a surfeit of chancers various)
Well it is Friday…
I guess the bears will be watching the big match tomorrow?
…if only to see the dress.
I’ll vow to drop the poor jokes…eventually.
The SFA has long ago given up even a pretence at governance. It has two functions left. Firstly to protect itself and its officers, past and present, from any consequences of its previous actions and inactions. It does this by ignoring reality for as long as humanly possible, and when forced to act, engages in blatant obfuscation and deflection.
Its second purpose is to ensure that A Rangers survives regardless of the legitimate and compelling valid impediments to that survival. It does these two things with the full backing of its member clubs, the Scottish press and media and the Scottish establishment.
It stinks and the stench is overwhelming the sport as a meaningful enterprise.
@Highlander 14:08
What is also a fact is that those very same football authorities have so far been ‘duped’ by David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green and Dave King.
What is also a fact is that that makes those football authorities entirely untrustworthy
Absolutely spot on.
Hence why I only got to reputable sources for factual evidence as to what transpired here.
Those sources being
1 The Government
https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/sites/default/files/A_Guide_to_Starting_a_Sports_Club_tcm21-149209.pdf
2 Companies House
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/search?q=SC004276
3 The AIB
https://roi.aib.gov.uk/roi/PublicSearches/PublicSearch/InsolventCompany
Just the facts forget the filmflam.
iceman63May 18, 2018 at 15:36
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Well said pal
ICEMAN63MAY 18, 2018 at 15:36
Can I say that I have no problem at all with the SFA looking out for the interest of members along with taking cognisance that the potential loss of 50k fans to the game can be seen by some as a bit of a blow.
The problem is that they failed to take the opportunity to help (or indeed enforce) a remodelling of any football club playing out of Ibrox after 2012 to be fit for the 21st century.
Instead they allowed folks like Big Hands Green and convicted Tax Dodger King to take the helm, no questions asked.
Everyone ‘within the game’ is guilty by association as far as I can see for the farce we have now, where the principles of FFP are out the window and bigotry, threats, boycotts and a downright disregard for fellow clubs, continues unchallenged.
Alan McGregor I see is quoted today as saying that he is looking forward to adding to his Rangers success. My immediate inner voice reply was “aye but you and most of your team mates were not registered correctly when you played and won stuff before… Booooh etc” (more inner voice).
Then it occurred to me that the guilty verdict from Nimmo-Smith on rules breaches will always be every fan’s first thought when Rangers title wins and cup wins from 2000-2011 are mentioned. The club’s key people in the boardroom broke the player registration rules, got found out and found guilty.
Which, if I am right, means that deep down Alan McGregor and all his team mates, managers and coaches of the period will be kind of, sort of proud to recall those teams and wins, but also a bit embarrassed and raging at club and agents for putting a real blemish on each of the medals.
Cheats never win really, even if the cheating wasn’t their fault. Poor old Alan.
I see not much changes in Scottish Football.
McGregor joins Rangers and immediately withdraws from the Scotland squad and then his spot is given to a player who appears to have never been on Scotlands radar at any level, but a handful of games for Celtic ensures national selection.
this could be a stupid question and is why I don’t ask many. The wtc overdue payable should it had any bearing on rangers license to play in Scottish competitions in there final season?
Auldheid – You have a PM
paddy malarkey
May 18, 2018 at 13:16
—————————–
In January 1971, I was working for an Insurance Company in Glasgow, when I received a phone call from ALEXANDER STENHOUSE & PARTNERS LIMITED, Insurance Brokers, 145 St. Vincent Street Glasgow G2 5NX.
The caller wanted to increase the sum insured under the Public Liability section of their client’s, The Rangers Football Club Limited, insurance policy.
If there had been a Holding Company at any time there would need to be 2 Insurance polices in force one for the holding company and one for the club or at least cover specifically for a Holding company written in.
Neither of these applied to The Rangers Football Club Limited.
Looking forward to the football this week-end. Although hopeful, it’s not a forgone conclusion tomorrow.
Think I’ll be watching from behind the couch.
Sunday’s game should be good too. Can’t decide who to support. Most of the folk over on CQN are going for PT.
Good luck to everyone. Especially Celtic!
btw, PT v Livi is live on BT.
After steering mostly clear for a few weeks, I can’t help notice when coming on tonight that yet again we seem to be stuck in an OC/NC debate (Rangers fans equally as guilty). Did we not set up a seperate forum for discussing this? And if so can those debates be moved by mods off the main blog? I think after 6 years it’s clear that those of us who believe it to be the same club will never be convinced otherwise. And those of you who believe us to be a new club will never be convinced otherwise. So are we to still be on here debating the same topic in 20 years time?
Wottpi,
i have a question that results from your thought provoking post last night, asking what it is Rangers stand for and what they offer the Scottish game. My question is what, for an example, do Dundee United bring to the Scottish game? And if I may be so bold, could you answer with reference to Dundee United only and not with contrast examples to the negatives of Rangers?
Many thanks in advance – I look forward to your reply!
DBD, How’s things?
Looking forward to next season?
Not to bad Jimbo, yourself? I must say I can’t get my sights much further ahead than the World Cup and 4 weeks of football! For next season I think in general I am intrigued to see how things go across the leagues. Obviously I’m interested to see how well Gerrard does and I hope he makes me eat my words. In England it seems things have been shaken up a bit – new manager at Arsenal, Liverpool seemingly unstoppable, Spurs strengthening, Chelsea likely to come back strong. We could genuinely see 6-7 teams in with a shout! How I would love if us, Hearts and Aberdeen could all get our act together and do the same in Scotland
DBD, you do realise that the EPL was by far more of a one-horse race than it was up here? I’m not sure what you expect.
Here’s the reply I got from John Mason MSP
Dear James
Thanks for your email.
I think you may only have seen a small part of the exchanges I have had on this subject by email and on social media. I fear that one short statement can sometimes be taken out of context! This fan was not raising the parking ban. He was complaining to Celtic that they are not putting on buses for disabled supporters.
There is a huge problem with inappropriate parking around Celtic Park on match days. Residents in my constituency are effectively trapped in their homes by fans parking across their driveways, etc. They also live in fear of needing an ambulance or fire engine in an emergency as they would struggle to get into many streets.
So in the first place I am supportive of the Council’s proposals to make the area a more controlled parking zone although the details have to be worked out.
In response to several folk raising the question of disabled fans or others who could not walk far, I have said that there is plenty of room for these fans to park if those who are able to walk 20 minutes would park further away in a more considerate manner. The parking problem is not caused by disabled fans. It is caused by perfectly able bodied fans (often with very expensive cars!) wanting to park as close as possible to Celtic Park (and I think the other major stadia in the City) with no regard for residents.
I hope that clarifies my position.
However, as a more general point, I am a Clyde supporter and would like to see more fans considering supporting smaller more local teams… like Clyde! (To be fair to the gentlemen I was chatting to by email, he told me he does also support a local team, so well done to him.)
Yours sincerely
John
DARKBEFOREDAWNMAY 18, 2018 at 19:07
After steering mostly clear for a few weeks, I can’t help notice when coming on tonight that yet again we seem to be stuck in an OC/NC debate (Rangers fans equally as guilty). Did we not set up a seperate forum for discussing this? And if so can those debates be moved by mods off the main blog? I think after 6 years it’s clear that those of us who believe it to be the same club will never be convinced otherwise. And those of you who believe us to be a new club will never be convinced otherwise. So are we to still be on here debating the same topic in 20 years time?
____________
Ah, after steering clear for a few weeks, your first post is to advocate the ‘let’s move on’ mantra, something that will only happen, in this instance, once the reality of what liquidation means is fully acknowledged by all concerned. If everyone had been prepared to do ‘moving on’, or to end discussions just because one side was fed up (losing the argument) with it, then it is highly unlikely we would be having any sort of inquiry into the 2011 Rangers Euro License application/granting, now would we. As a fine bunch of chaps once said, Persitence Beats Resistance!
If, however, you were to look back over the posts, you will see that they don’t so much tackle the OC/NC debate, itself, rather the ridiculous notion that a FACT is created whenever someone says something that supports one side of an argument.
By the way, can you point me in the direction of this separate forum, for I have no idea where it might be, nor that the mods have placed a ban on the OC/NC debate, either, but are, instead, watching to ensure it doesn’t get out of hand with circular arguments.
It is noticeable that SlimJim, the poster who introduced the discussion today, has been conspicuous by his absence since that first post, I suspect unable to counter what has been said in response. Perhaps some people are learning from the debate, after all!
RG, I don’t really know what happened in the EPL. To now have a situation where we can see either Manchester clubs, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and even a Leicester win the league! The best thing is it’s not always the team who spends the most money (Leicester, Spurs) but those who spend most wisely. I wish my team would take note
AJ, I’ve never suggested moving on in that post, merely agreeing to disagree. I was sure a few weeks ago when it was dominating the forum one of the mods had set up a separate forum? I may be wrong so apologies if so.
Allyjambo,
Do you really think if everyone accepted the fact that Rangers were liquidated and relaunched as a separate entity that it is highly unlikely we would be having any sort of inquiry into the 2011 Rangers Euro License application/granting? And if so, wouldn’t you say regardless of whether the liquidation emergence nonsense had happened or not it would still be worthwhile if not essential to ensure that rules were followed appropriately in 2011?
I still maintain that it would have been best for Rangers if rules had been followed to the letter in the first place. If so, I think it highly unlikely that liquidation would have occurred at all.
There is no old co new co debate, the reality is what went with the old co grown men on here cannot accept.
The old co took your traditions and history and laid it flat on a mortuary slab, the punishment for cheating had to be liquidation,like the old way Glasgow hanged people the business world hanging judge served the highest offence availabe on the Rangers 1872, death.
How unfortunate when the cheating was happening no-one had the foresight to uncorporate the club from company.
As they say in the song “Dont look back in anger”.
We know there is no Rangers 1872 PLC anymore or Original Rangers football club and this reality is well known, like Woolworth and others it came to close, the reminder of what once wa, is merely a signpost of wrought iron on a set of gates, gates, if originally installed in 1872, with more years now than the company it opened up to daily and closed to at the close of business.
Lawman, DBD,SlimJim and RG grow up FFS, death is a natrual processs inthe circle of life.
No-one seriously believes that employing Malky Mackay and Alex McLeish is indicative of an organisation that has any awareness of how to grow and develop football in the twenty first century, yet the SFA appear incapable of anything approaching modern day thinking.
I fully expect the successors to these posts to be Owen Coyle and Mark McGhee, or possibly David Moyes, but only if he has had several years of unemployment in football management to call upon.
The call ups by McLeish of on loan Rangers players, and newly signed Celtic ones to the Scotland squad merely serve to confirm the paucity of vision and narrowness of options explored by the new manager.
No questions asked about signings and finanace from the fans, no queries about the silly names been linked, just a sebservant gullible fanbase with a need to be a part of something even it it strips them of the right to be free in thought and peace of mind. You really did sit about and let your club die, believing nonsense, from people who had their fingers on the carcass TBH you really are pathetic support for been easily ripped off and listening and believing in fairytales.
Oh well DBD we are in good company I got as many thumbs down for asking a civil question as you got for giving a civil answer.
Very sad.
Constructive point BigBoab1916. Pathetic, subservient, gullible. Quite insulting really. Are you just here to call us names?
Also BigBoab1916 I just noticed this gem:
”Lawman, DBD,SlimJim and RG grow up FFS, death is a natrual processs inthe circle of life.”
I notice I am in there. Would you care to justify this please? As it seems you are slandering me with absolutely no just cause whatsoever.
DARKBEFOREDAWNMAY 18, 2018 at 19:4
AJ, I’ve never suggested moving on in that post, merely agreeing to disagree. I was sure a few weeks ago when it was dominating the forum one of the mods had set up a separate forum? I may be wrong so apologies if so.
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You may not have used the words, but you clearly want the debate stifled, so much so that it was the first thing you posted on your return to the blog. If ending a debate because some, on one side of the argument, don’t like it, in a similar way to Regan and Doncaster, is not moving on, then what is it?
JIMBOMAY 18, 2018 at 19:25
There is a huge problem with inappropriate parking around Celtic Park on match days. Residents in my constituency are effectively trapped in their homes by fans parking across their driveways, etc. They also live in fear of needing an ambulance or fire engine in an emergency as they would struggle to get into many streets.
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When you build new houses around a stadium,And people move into these houses.Did these people not see the great bloody stadium in front of their eyes? just what did they expect to happen on match days?
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Residents in my constituency are effectively trapped in their homes by fans parking across their driveways,
This will happen when you build houses around a stadium.
I am willing to bet the stadium was there long before the new houses.Don’t move into a house next to a football stadium then complain you are trapped in your house for a couple of hours.What did you expect on match days?Get out of your house then and go to the bloody game then,the stadium is just across the road.
RyanGosling May 18, 2018 at 19:10
Wottpi,
i have a question that results from your thought provoking post last night, asking what it is Rangers stand for and what they offer the Scottish game. My question is what, for an example, do Dundee United bring to the Scottish game? And if I may be so bold, could you answer with reference to Dundee United only and not with contrast examples to the negatives of Rangers?
Many thanks in advance – I look forward to your reply!
===============================
RG – I think that it reasonable to ask any fan such a question about the team he supports, but less so to ask a Hearts supporter about Dundee United. Why not ask him about Hearts?
However, I wouldn’t mind letting you know what I think about Dundee United.
It’s my understanding that they were formed as Dundee Hibernian focusing on the catholic community in Dundee, however they changed their name in the 1920s in order to broaden their appeal to a wider community, which I believe was a laudable step.
Much of the first half of their existence was spent in the second tier, playing second fiddle to their near neighbours. To that extent they spent their first 50 years mainly as a community based club with fleeting success. Their is nothing much wrong with that and I’d guess they served their community much as the other Angus sides have done for decades. Fortunately the upturn in their achievements in Scottish football coincided with my own lifetime and first taking an interest in football.
My first positive memory was of them starting the Scandinavian invasion of the early 60s, which spread to other clubs such as Morton and Rangers. I think that was one of the most innovative decisions in Scottish football by changing the insular approach to player recruitment.
Their earliest entries into Europe saw them do a memorable double victory over Barcelona, a feat repeated around 20 years later.
Move forward to the Jim McLean era and they produced some of the best football played by any Scottish side that brought plaudits from fans of all clubs. I would love to have supported a team that played in the style that they did. A Premier league title, a European Cup semi final and a UEFA Cup final, were magnificent achievements for a club with such limited resources and a great boost to the Tayside community.
Step forward another couple of decades and the club gained national prominence and respect for their youth development programme, which delivered a number top quality (by Scottish standards) home grown international players.
I think the precis above represents a record to be proud of, and should be recognised and appreciated by fans of all clubs.
Sadly, I think that the club is currently in serious financial difficulty, as a result of failing to return to the Premiership at the first time of asking. If they end up going into administration it will demonstrate the folly of the “speculate to accumulate” financial model that has been the downfall of many clubs in the past, and no doubt will be repeated in the future by those who have yet to learn that lesson.
RYANGOSLINGMAY 18, 2018 at 19:52
Allyjambo,
Do you really think if everyone accepted the fact that Rangers were liquidated and relaunched as a separate entity that it is highly unlikely we would be having any sort of inquiry into the 2011 Rangers Euro License application/granting? And if so, wouldn’t you say regardless of whether the liquidation emergence nonsense had happened or not it would still be worthwhile if not essential to ensure that rules were followed appropriately in 2011?I still maintain that it would have been best for Rangers if rules had been followed to the letter in the first place. If so, I think it highly unlikely that liquidation would have occurred at all.
_____________
On re-reading my post I can see where you maybe misunderstood what I was meaning.What I was saying was that if we all, that is all the various blogs and campaigners, moved on (not just in the debate we are currently discussing) whenever one side called for it, then this inquiry would not now be taking place, hence the link to ‘Persistence Beats Resistance’. The Resolution 12 guys faced some hefty resistance, ridicule and calls to just move on from all the usual suspects.
The only way following rules would have saved Rangers would have been if they had not indulged in two dodgy tax avoidance/evasion schemes and subsequently lied to all and sundry to cover up their wrongdoings. The football rules they broke didn’t lead to their insolvency, though the club’s adherence to the WATP mantra and need to outdo Celtic certainly played a huge part. Even after they were caught by HMRC, if they’d played ball and not chased moonbeams, they could have reined in the spending and been in a position to pay back the income tax due, even over a period of years. Instead they went chasing titles, and it was that, not the breaking of the rules, that eventually saw the end of Rangers.
Easyjambo – thanks, a very interesting reply. I deliberately chose Dundee United in my question to Wottpi because I know it is not the club he supports. The reason for my question was because people are asking what do Rangers (a club most posters in question do not support) provide to the Scottish game, therefore I was interested in what other clubs provide to the game that Rangers do not.
Allyjambo – that was basically my point. If Rangers had been found out early doors, made to pay up and rapped firmly on the knuckles, they wouldn’t have folded. They wouldn’t have won as many titles, sure, but would have remained solvent. Possibly.
For the OC/NC debate I don’t have anything to add to it. I’ve written hundreds of words on the subject and on this forum and it’s rhe same points I’m asked to justify again and again. If I could point a link back to my view then there would be no need to continuously debate it. That was my suggestion for a separate forum.
Jimbo – I don’t even look at the thumbs so please don’t let it bother you either. Your one of the main reasons I log on here and I see you as a friend despite never meeting you.