I am privileged to have the chance to post a “guest” article on TSFM. As we get used to the lights being turned out, even temporarily, on RTC, we have a new forum for analysing the various issues which concern supporters of Scottish football.
It is undoubtedly the case that most of these issues involve the Rangers FC, either directly or indirectly, together with their interaction with the governing bodies of Scottish football.
One of the matters mentioned on “The List” page here is the Nimmo Smith report. I try to answer the question about what happened to it below, and note the relevance its apparent disappearance has for the soon to convene SPL Independent Commission.
I would encourage anyone who wants to do so to contribute posts for publication to TSFM.
RTC created from nothing a vibrant community looking at serious and complex issues of finance, law and corporate governance with a huge range of expertise, and not a little humour. TSFM can build on that legacy for the good of football in Scotland, and hopefully to the betterment of our media.
Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?
On 21st February 2012 the SFA announced that it had appointed retired judge Lord Nimmo Smith to chair an independent inquiry into Rangers FC. His panel comprised Professor Niall Lothian, Past President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland; Bob Downes, former Director of BT and now Deputy Chairman of the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, and Stewart Regan, CEO of the SFA.
The Inquiry was commissioned to investigate the potential breach of a number of SFA Articles of Association and to present its findings to the SFA Board within two weeks. Article 62.2 (q) of the SFA Articles of Association allows the SFA Board to appoint “a commission … to attend to and/or determine any matter(s) referred to it by the Board.”
Stewart Regan was quoted saying: “I am delighted Lord Nimmo Smith has agreed to Chair the Independent Inquiry. I am certain the experience contained within the panel will enable us to achieve more clarity on the situation regarding Rangers FC. There will be no further comment on the investigation until it is complete and its findings presented to the Board.”
One wonders about the use of the word “independent”, bearing in mind that one of the members was the CEO of the commissioning body, and on the Board which would consider it once prepared.
On 2nd March Mr Regan had more to say, although the investigation was not yet complete.
“We are now in the final stages of our independent inquiry into the situation concerning Rangers FC. The report by The Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith is expected to be completed next week and will go to a Special Board Meeting for consideration. It would be inappropriate to make any further comment at this stage in relation to the details gleaned from the inquiry, the potential contents of the report or any possible sanctions.
On 8th March the Special Board Meeting took place to consider the Nimmo Smith Report. Mr Regan commented:-
“I can confirm that the Scottish FA convened a Special Board Meeting at Hampden Park today to discuss the findings of the Independent Inquiry into Rangers FC, prepared by the Chair, The Right Honourable Lord William Nimmo Smith.
“Principally, it is the belief of the Board, taking into account the prima facie evidence presented today, that Mr Craig Whyte is not considered to be a Fit and Proper person to hold a position within Association Football.
“The report submitted by Lord Nimmo Smith, having been considered fully by the Board, highlights a number of other potential rule breaches by the club and its owner. The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.
As such, the report’s contents will not be published at this time. Nevertheless, I can confirm that the club is facing a charge of bringing the game into disrepute.”
On 24th April Mr Regan, following the verdict of the Judicial Panel, said the following:-
“It was entirely right that the original inquiry into Rangers FC and Craig Whyte was conducted independently and chaired by the Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith. These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal, who returned their verdict last night.”
That all seems clear. Lord Nimmo Smith, with the help of distinguished people like Mr Regan, carried out a quick but thorough investigation, and the results were put to the Judicial Panel for consideration.
However Gary Allan QC, who chaired the Panel, made the following comment on page 59 of the Panel’s written decision.
“It is remarkable that throughout the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal Process there has been repeated, and regrettably wholly misconceived reference to the Report of Lord Nimmo Smith. For the avoidance of any doubt, the Judicial Panel hearing this disciplinary matter was at no time presented with the report, as evidence or otherwise, nor was it presented with any of its findings. No member of the Tribunal has had sight of it. The report was not mentioned by any party at any time in the course of the proceedings. The determinations which were reached, therefore, were reached entirely independently of any view at which any other person, however senior or eminent, may have arrived in fulfilment of his remit prior to the disciplinary hearing.”
How can the Chair of the Panel deny having seen a document which, according to one of the people who sat on the independent committee, was presented to them?
The answer is two-fold.
Firstly, at pages 2 to 3 of the Judicial Panel decision, the procedural nuts and bolts of the case are discussed:-
“The Tribunal … directed that … it would proceed to hear the evidence and submissions and proceed to Determinations in relation to the complaints against both Rangers FC and Mr Whyte.
The Tribunal … noted that … it would proceed on the basis that there was an absolute denial on (Mr Whyte’s) part of each element of the alleged breach of the rules in all its particulars.
The Tribunal directed that accordingly, and notwithstanding the fact that in its written responses Rangers FC in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules, … the Tribunal would require to establish a clear factual basis for its Determination of both any alleged breaches and, if applicable, any sanction against either or both Rangers FC or Mr Whyte. … The commission and the circumstances of the alleged breaches would therefore require to be established by the leading of evidence before the Tribunal …
A discussion in relation to the procedure to be adopted took place. It was agreed that the Compliance Officer Mr Lunny would lead evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material but would lead no witnesses, and would invite the Tribunal to accept the evidence in that form as provided in the Judicial Panel Protocol. Mr McLaughlin for Rangers FC, standing its position on the complaints contained in the written response previously submitted had neither issues with that proposal nor any other objection to the procedure which would be adopted. An opportunity would then be afforded to Rangers FC to lead evidence and make submissions as Mr McLaughlin on its behalf saw fit. Mr McLaughlin intimated that he would be likely to lead evidence from four witnesses previously intimated to the Compliance Officer and the Tribunal in terms of the Judicial Panel Protocol.”
At the hearing the positions of Rangers FC and of Mr Whyte were totally at odds. Mr Whyte did not appear nor lodge any substantive reply. He denied everything. On the other hand, Rangers FC “in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules”. As the Panel determined, they needed to be satisfied of the right verdict based on the evidence, but as the “prosecution case” was generally admitted, there was less rigour about this than if, for example, Mr Whyte had attended and denied the charges.
If Mr Whyte had appeared to deny the allegations, or if Rangers FC had disputed them, then evidence would have had to come from witnesses, who could have been cross-examined. In that event it would not have been sufficient to present the Nimmo Smith report, because, for all his experience, expertise and eminence, he is not guaranteed to be infallible.
One important principle in judicial and quasi-judicial procedure is the “Best Evidence rule”. If possible, original documents should be produced, rather than copies. Items of physical evidence should be brought to the court, rather than photographs of it. Witnesses should give evidence rather than having witness statements provided to the hearing.
This, I think, provides part of the explanation for the apparently mysterious absence of the Nimmo Smith Report.
The facts of the case had been admitted by the only party who attended the hearing, namely Rangers FC. Therefore Mr Lunny led “evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material”. The Panel made 108 separate “findings in fact” derived from the evidence he put forward and that of Rangers FC.
Where Lord Nimmo Smith’s committee had, for example, analysed documents and offered a conclusion upon their import, the documents would be evidence but His Lordship’s conclusion would not. Similarly where a witness had been interviewed by the Nimmo Smith commission, or provided a statement, the former judge’s views on that would not be evidence, but the witness statement would be.
Mr Lunny, the Compliance Officer, was acting as prosecutor. Effectively Lord Nimmo Smith played the role of a senior detective co-ordinating an investigation, but not actually obtaining any evidence himself. In a criminal trial, where the officer in charge of the investigation has taken no part in the accumulation of the evidence, then their relevance as a witness is very small at best. It is up to the judge or the jury to decide what the totality of evidence means as far as guilt or innocence is concerned.
Therefore whilst I am sure that Lord Nimmo Smith’s report was on Mr Lunny’s table as he went through his presentation, ticking off the relevant parts as he led the primary evidence, the Report itself was not “relevant” evidence for the Panel. It is likely that, in discussion prior to the hearing, Mr Lunny and the solicitor for Rangers FC agreed whether the Nimmo Smith report would be used or not.
Mr Regan said prior to the Panel sitting “The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.“ The presentation of the case of course was independent of him, and whilst the Report would have formed the basis for the charges laid against Rangers FC and Mr Whyte, it was not evidence itself, as agreed between the parties.
The second aspect which accords with this explanation is the precise phrase used by Mr Regan. He said, after the decision, “These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal.”
He did not say that the report was presented, rather that the findings were. As the findings would form the basis for the “charges” admitted by Rangers FC, then to that extent the Nimmo Smith report played a part in the proceedings.
This issue has relevance now for the forthcoming SPL proceedings involving player payments and registrations which might have broken the rules. To great clamour and consternation from Ibrox direction, Harper MacLeod, the widely respected and highly rated form of solicitors, have carried out an investigation for the SPL into Rangers FC.
Mr Green has made clear that, as far as possible, the case will be fought, and no past titles will be stripped if he can do anything about it. Expect calls for the Harper MacLeod report to be produced.
However, it is in exactly the same position as the Nimmo Smith report was, except this time the accused is not accepting guilt. In that case, the relevant documents and witnesses will need to attend for scrutiny and examination.
On the basis that the First Tier Tax Tribunal, which looked at different but related issues, took many days to conclude, it is highly likely that the SPL case will not have a quick conclusion.
As a final aside, I must compliment Mr Green. All of the media speculation about punishment in the event that the independent commission find guilt on the part of Rangers repeats the mantra from Ibrox that the most severe penalty, namely stripping of titles, is the aim of the SPL.
I suspect that the SPL might believe that too now, on the basis that something which the club and the fans oppose so vigorously must be a draconian penalty.
But, of all of the various penalties listed, stripping titles would not cost the Rangers FC a single penny. The issue has already seen the supporters unite behind their team. Even if the commission finds the case proven, and as a result Rangers lose some of their historic titles, this will be seen by the Ibrox faithful as yet more treachery by the football authorities. Bearing in mind that the SPL rules allow various penalties, including the power to expel the club, impose unlimited fines and place a registration embargo on the club, altering the history books is the best thing for Rangers as a business, rather than a penalty which affects them just now.
Posted by Paul McConville – www.scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com
Celtic and the rangers are both due to play at home on 22/9 & 10/11, will celtic be expected to move one of these games ( at least ).
Would they fight it.
Will rangers rovers fight it if they must move one or both.
Will both be allowed to go ahead. ( the fixtures i mean ) .
On the sfl home page, rangers hotspurs have last years strip pictured in the kit section, so have they not informed the sfl/sfa what the team kits are this season, and is there a rule that covers this. Is this why they played in old rangers training tops resplendant/repugnant in five starnished glory.
Nowoldandrumpy
Re Alan McGregor
Strange that he came off around about the time your post went up!
Anyway, I agree you raise an interesting question, and probably another one that should go on the list unless we see news tomorrow that his registration had been released to his new club prior to the game starting.
If his registration is still somewhere between SFA / RFC / Sevco and Besitkas, is it the case then that McGregor could only legally play if the SFA contend that they hold the registration and can therefore approve his participation? Mmm, very interesting. I don’t suppose there have been many precedents to this convoluted scenario.
Your point however is likely that McGregor’s registration is in legal limbo, and he should not be playing. If he was injured (and seemed to be before he went off), then have the SFA scored another own goal and will be responsible for any claim that Besitkas may have?. Insurance companies might also look closely at whether any policy has been compromised if his registration has not been completed.
“Here’s another fine mess”…
S Regan, oops, i meant Oliver Hardy
Sorry,
Been on holiday and trying to catch up!
Is there a way of getting to the first page of a subject rather than via multiple older comments route?
PJF
Oh yes, i totally agree
but……..
I have followed RTC from the start. I finally made my first contribution around a year ago. It revolved around the utter silence from Celtic as events unfolded. I was delighted to receive a considered response from RTC him/herself. He/she was in broad agreement. Sadly I was jumped upon by others who think that criticsm of Celtic cannot be countenanced.
As I understand it the SPL are a collection of clubs who have chosen to combine together to form a league, albeit under the auspices of the SFA, but specifically to grab as much as they can from the finance available to the Scottish game.
Doncaster, a figure of ridicule on this forum, is the head of the SPL. He holds that post with the blessing of SPL teams. He must do. No-one has popped their head above the parapet and demanded his removal. He is simply the employee of SPL clubs.
It is time for every football fan to look inwards. Our game is systemically corrupt. The SPL teams, including my own, appear to be happy to let events unfold. All fans of SPL teams should be contacting their clubs in the strongest possible terms.
Perhaps the first question might be – ‘ What the hell is going on and what are you doing about it ? ‘
Philip José Farmer says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:02
precisely – there’s no sign of a Fergus – despite countless opportunities, what institution would buy into that car crash? so that just leaves the bear in the street
good luck charlie boy- if you think yorkies are tight with their cash you ain’t seen nothing yet !
Captain Haddock says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:30
1 0 Rate This
Nowoldandrumpy
Re Alan McGregor
=======
Maybe he was granted a conditional registration. 🙂
Black booed onto park
💡
”Under the FIFA Rules a player’s agent may not act for both the Club and the player concerned, at the same time”
http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=1694
How would this learned comment be applied should any agents involved with liquidised-co have benefitted from an EBT ❓
Would this be of concern to the SFA or their previous CEO ❓
Rangers and hove albion are due to play Montrose on 22/9, is this not the new newfirm derby thats got the worlds press waiting and tv companies drooling. Maybe Celtic will have to defer this one time.
P.S
I intend to continue with the rangers rovers/hotspurs/and hove albion joke as it tickles me, it will peter out eventually as i run out of teams and long after we’ve all got bored with it, so please bear with me. 😀
“Wur on wur way tae Rio ‘n’ we shall not be moved…”
Scotland 3 Australia 1
Richard Wilson (@timomouse) says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:16
Richard, I think you should think on a grander scale….Murray’s looting of Rangers took many forms; Carnegie Information Sysytems took a £1miilion a year for providing open source software for the ‘loyal smartcard’, Charlotte Ventures got paid to lease space to other Murray Companies including Rangers – who he ‘bought’ it off in the first place…more slight of hand. Azure – before he sold it – made millions for Murray out of Ibrox (eg £2.8million in 2004). Not forgetting his pension and emoluments from the group and many other scams. The EBT was just yet another ‘income stream’ that he could tap into….but it was never enough for him.
It was (-S)DM’s greed and ego that has destroyed Rangers – and Scottish Football. Those who persist in trying to perpetuate, sustain and support the current great con that is Dead Ringers will also be exposed for what they are.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:50
0 0 Rate This
Black booed onto park
—————-
and the BBC think it may be because everybody at Easter Road tonight is a hibee!
BBC Scotland’s Clive Lindsay at Easter Road
“When was the last time a Scot making his international debut was so heavily booed by his country’s own fans? That is what just happened to Ian Black. Because this is the home of Hibs and he used to play for city rivals Hearts? Or because some don’t like the fact he has suddenly received recognition after joining Rangers – and despite his new club being in Division Three?”
no Clive it’s option2
Not sure that either the SPL or TRFC are wrong, I think the agreement of the SPL to pay outstanding debts was part of the deal if the CVA went through. So Charlie was right that an agreement was made, even if it was with the Oldco. Charlie boy is trying to use that agreement to imply that this debt was part of what he paid in the last few days on behalf of TRFC.
If fact, all he may have achieved is to provide another link between both clubs and prove once more that he and all others believe and are acting as if this is the oldco.
Silly Billy….
Sorry for going off topic, and if I’m not understanding how this works, but did one of my posts just disappear.
rab says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:53
Rate This
Rangers and hove albion are due to play Montrose on 22/9, is this not the new newfirm derby thats got the worlds press waiting and tv companies drooling. Maybe Celtic will have to defer this one time.
P.S
I intend to continue with the rangers rovers/hotspurs/and hove albion joke as it tickles me, it will peter out eventually as i run out of teams and long after we’ve all got bored with it, so please bear with me.
Stick with it rab,i’m loving it,and willing to bet that so are a few others.
Are we beginning to see the whole corrupt fiasco starting to unravel ?
Today’s confusion over who is paying Dundee Utd, and who agreed to what could be the first signs
People will inevitably speak out of turn, or let something slip inadvertently, and that is all it takes to set the hare running
It is impossible to keep everything confidential and locked away
Watch this space, as there could be more coming in the near future
Tic 6709
Thanks for the comments, glad your liking it. There must be a rangers bromwich albion fan on tonight who isnt liking it though 😀
Is Charlie Sheen Happy? says:
August 15, 2012 at 17:22
Sorry ICSH?
Q. OldCo qualified to play in the Champions League.
OLDCO Deadclub didn’t pass muster for Uefa Competition 2012-13, due to no accounts.They also didn’t pass last year, due to Wee Tax Bill being an Outstanding Social Debt/Liabilty but f****** SFA slipped them an under the table licence. Don’t tell Uefa/FIFA
Q. Did the SFA membership need to be transferred from Oldco to Newco?
A. Yes
Again NO, There is no legal precedent to transfer a Membership,in fact I believe it’s actually clearly stated that a membership cannot be sold/transferred between 2 seperate legal entities.
These damn legalities just get in the way of PretenGers’ ongoing success………….Sorry,missed that Mr Ogilvie, “we can sweep it all under the carpet/rug!!!!”
His SFA office must be HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE.
Regarding the Dundee United money;
How can the SPL agree to pay this cash?
The money was from the Scottish Cup which is an SFA competition and has nothing to do with the SPL.
Was this a small financial leverage an attempt to get United to vote the correct way at the SPL meeting?
Who authorised Doncaster to forfeit Dundee United’s share of the gate as part of the negotiations.
Since this was the SFA’s competition why did they allow this agreement to occur and probably most importantly was Dundee United ever informed that they were going to have to wait three years to get their cash.
As they will be waiting some time will they be due interest on the money.
If United did not know about this deal then they have been treated disgracefully by both the SFA and the SPL.
It is bad enough telling everyone, who will listen, about the financial problems that will face clubs if Sevco were not allowed into the SPL but to attempt to engineer a financial problem at one of their member clubs to justify their stance is incredible and should lead to an enquiry itself.
rab says:
August 15, 2012 at 22:29
Tic 6709
Thanks for the comments, glad your liking it. There must be a rangers bromwich albion fan on tonight who isnt liking it though
—————————————————————————————————————–
Rab, once you’ve been through the UK teams, you can then take the “brand” global, after all, they keep telling us they are a global brand 🙂
No – it couldn`t be could it?
Last Seasons SPL / SFA monies are due to RFC[IA] creditors pot & are JAs responsibility – like 100% due
Just why would the SFA or SPL hold back on paying what is contractually due to RFC[IA] and creditors – to clear CG sevconians debts?
All this will do is delay the end of the Administration and the Appointment of the Liquidators BDO
[Which is what they really really really want]
It was inevitable that once the season kicked off the focus so rightly centred on Rangers(IL), the SPL and SFA shenanigans, and Sevco would ultimately move to football.
The Rangers FC are a circus, a pantomime and farce all rolled into one…and the show continues to roll. With Green at the helm, the wagons are circled, fending off the arrows and shots from ‘that lot’. He will do and say anything to ingratiate himself to the Sevco faithful, and thereby sell some more season tickets. He is transparent, petty and fits right into the tired old self-righteous Ibrox character. He has learned, that to get the hordes onboard, adopt the GIRUY stance. It’s just what was needed to keep another sinking ship afloat.
If there had been contrition, to wipe the slate clean – to acknowledge that what the old club had done with EBTs, failed registration of players and thus stripping of titles as per the rules, then so be it. Instead we have the revert to type – No one likes us – we don’t care. Hey – if it sells the jerseys, then it’s fines worth paying.
Neil and Stuart, Chuck is laughing and smirking down his Pinocchio nose at you because he knows how inept you are, but also at the rest of Scottish football – ‘we’re a club with no debt’ he proclaims. No integrity, no respect for the game your playing or your opponents either – but no debt. Fantastic, I’m sure SDM would be very very proud….You should be kicking this joker out of town. Fit and proper person test sound familiar ?
You want the history of RFC ?….Pay ALL your debts, not just the thousands owed to football teams across the world. As someone said, its like this time last year when hope was high that the MBB would bankroll the club to success – we can see how that one worked out. I’m afraid Mr Charles it’ll take a lot more than a few a howls at the moon, after some impromptu lessons from Sally to keep the good ship The Rangers FC from hitting another iceberg. Not even Ian Black’s decorating skills can put that ship together again.
Craig levein courts publicity. He tried to write master tactician headlines with his nonsensical 6-4-0 and he has tried again with his picking of a division 3 player. Scotland cannot afford players getting sent off during important qualifiers.
The SFA have Craig Levein by the short and curlies! After he was quoted as saying that he can’t pick 3rd div players, as they aren’t playing in a competitive enough league, he calls up rangers Ian Black to the squad.
Why the change of heart?? Its called money,dosh,cash,shehkels,££s,$$$$s to appease newco fans to buy international tickets to watch their national team.
Am I wrong or is he so much a better player than he was last year and wasn’t chosen? Politics abound along with traditional jiggerypokery!
Gretna were relegated to the Third Division due to their financial struggles, with the Scottish Football League threatening expulsion should a takeover not be completed within a week
Has the SPL ever paid their members football debts that were due to other clubs after competing in an SFA competition ?
Evening all,
WRT alleged payment due from SPL to DUFC on RFC(IA)s behalf:
The problem is in my opinion,Greens “Dual Contract”.
WE never know if he is speaking as CEO of Sevco or still working for RFC(IA) free of charge.He,and his supporters in the MSM,etc are quite happy with this scenario.
£31k is not a lot of money in football terms.I’m more concerned about the fact that the SPL say they couldn’t pay it.Proof that the SPL is a dead duck and reconstruction should be a priority,but to suit every team,not one.
The statement from the SPL,however,gives me a hope that maybe the powers that be are finally realising what’s going on.
To paraphrase,”Our agreement was with Oldco,not Sevco”.
There you have it,the SPL stating the 3rd Div team are a new entity.The agreement was with RFC(IA) because Sevco did not exist in any shape or form at that time.
Sevco agreed to pay all football debts of Oldco as a condition of receiving the transfer of membership.
SPL say they’re a new club,Sevco agree.
SPL are right to say deal was with Oldco and by agreeing to take on football debts to receive membership transfer,CG agreed.Anything CG says is only posturing.If he goes to court(don’t laugh) all he will prove is the SPL are right and the RFC fans will hear more evidence that they are a new club.That’ll not go down well.
Question is,
What are D&P doing as RFC are still in administration.Are they still collecting fees?.
Is Green still “working” for RFC(IA).If so,why?.
Why is the SPL,set up to make megabucks for Scottish football,basically by their own admission,bust?.
Richard Wilson (@timomouse) says:
August 15, 2012 at 21:16
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/29498969662/why-did-david-murray-have-an-ebt
In which I take a detailed look at one theory as to why David Murray had an EBT
———————————————————
Plausible theory but re “Until dates are released as to exactly when Murray was paid his EBT money, we won’t know ……..”
Will details ever be fully disclosed? The Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Tax Chamber) Rules 2009, Rule 32(6) says:
“If the Tribunal publishes a report of a decision resulting from a hearing which was held wholly or partly in private, the Tribunal must, so far as practicable, ensure that the report does not disclose information which was referred to only in a part of the hearing that was held in private (including such information which enables the identification of any person whose affairs were dealt with in the part of the hearing that was held in private) if to do so would undermine the purpose of holding the hearing in private.”
Could one of the legal contributors out there say if it may never fully be made public what was led in evidence by whom and who got what and when?
KTID1869 says:
August 15, 2012 at 20:08
Thanks for the mention mate.
Amongst the massive amount of crowd pandering that CG engaged in, that was a pretty low point among low points!
kex says:
August 15, 2012 at 22:31
Oops! I should possibly work on my phraseology. It was tough to keep the post concise, as the twisted logic employed to try and claim that “the 2 clubs are the same” is so convoluted and requires so many conflicting concepts to be true at the one time that I (or anybody) could have spent days demonstrating that no part of it can be correct.
You are of course correct on the CL qualification. However the accounts issue aside, 2nd place in the SPL entitles a team to play in the Europe. I think the point generally remains the same, that any impediments (or lack thereof) to OldCo and NewCo playing in Europe are completely separate, apply for different time periods and are absolutely unrelated. The reason for this is obvious. (The accounts issue itself is another reason the 2 clubs cannot be one!)
You are also quite correct that the SFA articles specifically state that a membership is non-transferable. However the very next article states that the membership can be transferred under conditions that the SFA see fit. These articles seem to be mutually exclusive, yet SevCo asked for the second one to apply. The SFA appear to have acceded to this. Shocking decision but still a demonstration that there was no “club” separate from the incorporated company.
.
I think Ogilvie might be keeping the recession away from the carpet industry! 😉
rab says:
August 15, 2012 at 22:29
Tic 6709
Thanks for the comments, glad your liking it. There must be a rangers bromwich albion fan on tonight who isnt liking it though
Rab — if you ever stoop to Rangers Mönchengladbach …. we may just have words ……. 🙄
good questions and what’s happening with BDO, or are they like Whyte, Murray, D&P, Investigations, Courts overturning SFA sanctions, BTC and EBTs, rerecord and fade away ?
Stanblack says:
August 15, 2012 at 23:42
Gretna were relegated to the Third Division due to their financial struggles, with the Scottish Football League threatening expulsion should a takeover not be completed within a week
Has the SPL ever paid their members football debts that were due to other clubs after competing in an SFA competition ?
=======================================================================
Don’t know but I’d like to know the answer.The more we can find out WRT the bias towards 1 club by the governing bodies the better.Find out as much as we can and get it on the spreadsheet.
TSFM,Is it possible to have a link to the spread sheet that means we don’t have to keep scrolling back to find it?.
rab on August 15, 2012 at 21:53
I intend to continue with the rangers rovers/hotspurs/and hove albion joke as it tickles me, it will peter out eventually as i run out of teams and long after we’ve all got bored with it, so please bear with me.
==========
sorry if you were going to use this one later but …
Rangers Park Rangers
I had to say it ..
When the dust finally settles what will it be oh beloved bampots? Sevco IA Rangers IL The Park Rangers IA/IL or a bit of all three perhaps?
How long will Ally stay in the job as the head girl or will he say Cheerio before Charlieboy get the knife in first?
At what point do the MSM smell the coffee and start asking the right ( i know i know) and proper probing questions of this motley crew of corrupt decrepit cheating lying arrogant ignorant bunch of b(w)ankers
When will the BBC sack the lying cretins who take us all for dupes.
How long can this tawdry affair continue, do they really think they can act this way with impunity?
I give it three months.
Is Charlie Sheen Happy? says:
August 15, 2012 at 17:22
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
the best post ever on TSFM
thnak you Charlie – simply brilliant post
BBC Scotland website 11pm – is this the same guy? hmmmmmmm…….
Lord Carloway appointed as Lord Justice Clerk Lord Carloway was appointed as a judge in 2000
Lord Carloway has been appointed as Scotland’s new Lord Justice Clerk – the country’s second most senior judge.
The judge replaces Lord Gill, who was appointed Lord President in June.
Lord Carloway was nominated by the first minister, and formally appointed by the Queen.
He recently led a review of Scots law following the Supreme Court’s ruling in the Cadder case. His report recommended ending the requirement for corroborated evidence in criminal cases.
The Lord Justice Clerk, who has an annual salary of £206,857, is one of the Great Offices of State in Scotland, and plays a prominent role in the criminal appeals system.
dzugashvilli says: August 15, 2012 at 21:58
BBC Scotland’s Clive Lindsay at Easter Road
“When was the last time a Scot making his international debut was so heavily booed by his country’s own fans? That is what just happened to Ian Black. Because this is the home of Hibs and he used to play for city rivals Hearts? Or because some don’t like the fact he has suddenly received recognition after joining Rangers – and despite his new club being in Division Three?”
no Clive it’s option2
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I disagree. Maybe 25% of the reason was in relation to his selection as a TRFC player, but the bulk of the animosity is down to him being an ex Hearts player, a Hearts supporter, a player that rubs up opposition supporters the wrong way, and the recent cup final experience.
Maybe you didn’t notice, but a second player, also making his debut, was booed. That was Ryan McGowan making his debut for Australia. Now he has no connection with TRFC, so why would a section of supporters boo him?
Starofdavid says:
August 16, 2012 at 00:07
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When the dust finally settles what will it be oh beloved bampots? Sevco IA Rangers IL The Park Rangers IA/IL or a bit of all three perhaps?
How long will Ally stay in the job as the head girl or will he say Cheerio before Charlieboy get the knife in first?
At what point do the MSM smell the coffee and start asking the right ( i know i know) and proper probing questions of this motley crew of corrupt decrepit cheating lying arrogant ignorant bunch of b(w)ankers
When will the BBC sack the lying cretins who take us all for dupes.
How long can this tawdry affair continue, do they really think they can act this way with impunity?
I give it three months.
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Starofdavid,
Completely agree with you. Couple of points though.
The MSM will never smell the coffee ! They’re too busy smelling the C**p from their paymasters. Their nostrils can’t multi-task like the rest of us. i.e. they only have 2 smells, Money and the aforementioned C**p!
Good point about The BBC though !
Traynor, Young, etc are old style journalist’s struggling to keep up with modern media these days. Sometimes I don’t think they realise how every word they say is scrutinised ! I think they still live in the old days when there was no internet, and their word was gospel.
You can add Mr Keevins to that list, as well as the other “young” pretenders such as King, Jackson, et al.
The common thing about the 5 names above is that they have lucrative sidelines with popular Scottish Radio Football programmes. I don’t mind that, as they are “Journalists” so called. That is their profession !
What I do mind is ex-Footballers turned pundits still trying to make a living out of the game long after their time has gone.
Sorry, the above sentence is wrong. What I really mean is I don’t mind ex-Footballers being pundits if they have previously been decent guys, and had a good reputation as former players.
The one’s who really get on my nerves are the like of Mr Dodds. The BBC Sports department have been giving Mr Dodds a lot of air time recently, and if I’m not wrong, he’s also enjoyed a recent european jonty at our expense as well.
What hold does he have on the BBC to have survived Tax Dodging accusations, whilst at the same time claiming it had nothing to do with him, as he was only following advice from his agents/ accountants ?
I’ve stated previously, isn’t it about time we had a serious Government Public Inquiry into this whole affair.
For this to happen, 1 thing should happen immediately :
1. Newco Rangers have to be suspended from all football until The Enquiry has finished.
Then when the enquiry begins, let’s see all the main characters being brought on one by one, under oath, explaining their excuses.
Only then will the truth be told. As I’ve said before, there is a lot of public money missing here, we are entitled to know how we are going to get it back. We are also entitled to know how it got to this stage in the 1st place !
We are also entitled to know how the aftermath was allowed to happen after D&P through to the present incumbent, Mr Green !
At the present time, I wouldn’t like to be an Administrator of either The SFA or SPL !
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-at-loggerheads-with-spl-over-cup-tie-money-owed-to-dundee-united-1-2468629
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/lee-wallace-disappointed-but-respects-craig-levein-s-decision-not-to-include-him-in-scotland-squad-1-2469057
Thanks again stunney for early morning papers.
Very much appreciated.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/black-and-booed.18599443
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/rangers-debt-to-rapid-and-united-yet-to-be-settled.18599010
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/wallace-scotland-future-is-unclear.18597611
midcalderan says:
August 15, 2012 at 23:50
That’s true as far as Murray’s accounts go (although that’s not to say that there aren’t numerous examples of published accounts of individuals who are going out of their way to disprove malfeasance), but RFC’s accounts are another matter and, considering the additional information that appears to be out there on top of the Daly information, I would actually be quite surprised were RTC or someone not to already be in posession of that information.
I join with those thanking Stunney for his middle of the night deliveries. Great to have the traditions carried on. Speaking of traditions, one voice from RTC unheard since the change is Hugh McEwan’s. I wonder if he’s on a break. Hugh, your country needs you. Please call the office!
This quote from one of The Herald articles jumps out, especially the details about the number of European clubs owed money. Also the fact that the club (err … not actually sure what the definition of that is as regards what used to be Rangers) have 15 days to pay the debt to Rapid!
Does Charles want his Green Rangers to be oldco when they’re due money from other clubs, and newco when there’s old bills to be paid? (Someone made that point in the comments section). It’s like having two simultaneous identities. I would have thought any attempt to pass yourself off as debt-ridden oldco (when it suited you) was like chaining yourself to the railings of that big ship that sank 100 years ago. And if FIFA do act after 15 days, that might just indicate that someone in that organisation will look into the situation and the SFA’s handling of it – but I’m not holding my breath.
“A further knock-on effect is that Rapid owe Jelavic’s previous side, Zulte-Waregem in Belgium, €325,000 as part of a sell-on clause. “About €890,000 [would] remain with us; the rest is passed on to Waregem,” said Stefan Ebener, Rapid’s sports manager. “€890,000 is not a big sum for Rangers but, for Rapid, it’s about 5% of our annual revenue, and the money is planned for.”
Other European and English clubs that are owed money by Rangers include French side St Etienne (£252,212.39); Chelsea (£238,345.43); Palermo in Italy (£205,513.04); Manchester City (£328,248); Orebro in Sweden (£150,000), while Arsenal are owed £136,560. If Rapid succeed in their fight for the money they are owed, it could lead to Green facing further claims from other clubs.”
Watch this space
HM Revenue & Customs @HMRCgovuk
HMRC’s Most Wanted tax fugitives published today http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmrcgovuk/sets/72157631087785530/ http://pic.twitter.com/dVbu8ndJ
Calculated artifice by jabber this morning – RFC[IA] current legal insolvency status is not “this was before liquidation” nor “it was sent to the business which went into liquidation” RFC[IA] are not in Liquidation as yet until a liquidator is appointed and even jabber must know that by now.
I`ll repeat, all monies due to RFC [In Administration] from last season were deployed by the Joint Administrators to maintain that Club as a going concern until the `sale` to CG. Any outstanding monies due to RFC[IA] should be allocated to decrease the trading shortfall prior to the sale and maximise the creditors pot. Outstanding monies due to the residual creditors plot from the last season of RFC trading should not be given gratis to CG newco – for any reason – and if they try, it will eventually be struck down.
It’s been asked many times, but not answered as far as I can remember
Does anyone know when the duffers move out and BDO move in?
Is there a timetable?
Why the delay?
Perhaps it is just more mschievous reporting by the Record (hopefully) however if it is true that a chorus of boos rang out when Black came on last night then I have to say that is disgusting. How can people have the gall to take a moral high position with the Rangers debacle and then boo a Scotland player? Hypocrisy at its best. On the positive side, good performance last night which we need to build on. We need to attach Serbia and not go back to a defensive formation.
Made the mistake of reading DR online today…apart from the deliberate dissembling about oldco, sevco and Newco, it appears that the SFA are holding the line that the deal done with oldco (IA) about retention of prize monies to pay football debts does not apply to Newco, and Newco should settle football debts as agreed in 5 way agreement. Am I reading this correctly?
There was a good joke by a blogger at the end of the article that made me chuckle.. (apologies if already posted) – “Charlie Green had a farm; I O I O U!”
A negative article on Rangers in ‘The Herald’ shock, horror.
Is Richard Wilson away on holiday?
Just because you’re paranoid…… says: at 08:48
It’s been asked many times, but not answered as far as I can remember
Does anyone know when the duffers move out and BDO move in?
Is there a timetable?
Why the delay?
____________
D+P stated 14 June that the Administration could last another 8 to 10 weeks. Thereafter BDO would be appointed as Liquidators. Today is the end of the 9th week. However D+P are awaiting Lord Hodge`s determination on the COI report. That COI report from D+ P was requested nearly 8 weeks ago – took three weeks to prepare – and is now with LH to be slotted into his schedule after an annual holiday.
So as far as a timetable is concerned for D+P to be released as appointed Officers of the Court, and BDO appointed as Liquidators – it should be imminent or any time now if taken from D+Ps original Statement in June of 8 to 10 weeks. But;
To be fair, D+P were surely not expecting to produce a Conflict of Interest Report to add to their planned workload scheduled for 8 to 10 weeks, and the D+P report that took 3 weeks to prepare will need time to consider by LH – So I`m guessing another week at the very least but understandable if it goes beyond that for say another 3 weeks at most before BDO begin the process of their appointment. Another guess is that indicative timeline would also cover the reported 10 September Court date where GW applies to join the litigation with D+P as a defendant in the CB action for 25m.
easyJambo says:
August 16, 2012 at 01:18
9 3 i
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dzugashvilli says: August 15, 2012 at 21:58
BBC Scotland’s Clive Lindsay at Easter Road
“When was the last time a Scot making his international debut was so heavily booed by his country’s own fans? That is what just happened to Ian Black. Because this is the home of Hibs and he used to play for city rivals Hearts? Or because some don’t like the fact he has suddenly received recognition after joining Rangers – and despite his new club being in Division Three?”
no Clive it’s option2
========================================
I disagree. Maybe 25% of the reason was in relation to his selection as a TRFC player, but the bulk of the animosity is down to him being an ex Hearts player, a Hearts supporter, a player that rubs up opposition supporters the wrong way, and the recent cup final experience.
Maybe you didn’t notice, but a second player, also making his debut, was booed. That was Ryan McGowan making his debut for Australia. Now he has no connection with TRFC, so why would a section of supporters boo him?
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McGowan got booed when he came on for his Hearts connection but it was nowhere as near the level that was by Black.
I also didn’t hear anyone booing Webster, and the ex Jambos Berra and Levein himself. Therefore different arguments can be put forward to ow many Hibees were in the boo boys.
To me Black has made a bad decision or taken poor advice heading to T’ Rangers but at the end of the day he didn’t deserve to get booed onot the park on what his a big night for any player, getting capped for your country.
That being said, unfortunately for Black, this was the first opportunity for the Tartan Army to voice their opinions with regard to T’Ranger and as far as I could see and hear it wasn’t just the Hibees in the crowd who took the opportunity to pass on a message to the powers that be.
After Black came on and had a then had a first the booing subsided therefore I think people made their point and got on watching the remainder of a game where Scotland played pretty well.
Given the number of thumbs down I would be grateful if someone could explain why they think it was ok for the Tartan Army to boo a Scotland player. Thanks.
The Portsmouth FC admin is sort of running parallel with RFC’s. Don’t know if it’s just me but the process there seems a little more transparent and straightforward, at least in some basic aspects. Also noticed they fielded a team of teenagers the other night, and an out-of-contract goalie. Compare that to … no, never mind.
Interesting though, that their big problem seems to be someone with a £17m security on Fratton Park. How unimaginably fortuitous that CW gave CG the keys to Ibrox out of the goodness of his heart and for his love of the club … well, something like that. Two transactions of £1 and Ibrox goes from Murray to Green and Rangers are both new and old all at the same time, but more importantly – debt-free. If this is a Glasgow version of ‘The Italian Job’ are we now at the point where the bus is balanced on the cliff edge?
Another mystery for a financial ignoramus like me is how Portsmouth are desperately trying to avoid liquidation. On the face of it, a visit from the Grim Reaper. But when the same occurs in Glasgow it looks as though there won’t be anything to harvest, grim or otherwise.
So very confusing. I’m glad it’s my day off. I’m off for a lie down 🙂
DO NOT FEED IT!!!
not a lawyer but maybe the delay in ALL the various outstanding matters such as Lord Hodge, Appealant Trib, BDO appointment etc etc is because the Police, Fraud Quad, Public Prosecution Service et all, have got to get all their “ducks” in order re charges of current/previous individuals connected to Newco/Oldco etc since once it is in the public domane it will be scutanised to the enth degree
Sepia says:
August 16, 2012 at 07:29
Sepia Hugh McEwan has a new name on here – it’s now Philip Jose Farmer 🙂
Charlie Brown says: August 16, 2012 at 10:02 –
Does Philip Jose Farmer retain the history of Hugh McEwan? 🙄
Morning all,
Does this make sense?.
Thinking about Jabbas claim that Sevco sold 10k season tickets in one day.
If a worker can process a ticket every 10 mins,with all that entails,where to sit,card details,admin etc,I’d think 10 mins is a reasonable estimate,then in a average 8hr day,each worker would process around 50 tickets.
Therefore,to process 10,000 tickets in one day,you’d need a staff of 200.
I don’t think CG has a staff of 200 dealing with STs.
Therefore,how many did he sell?.
A dangerous game. The SFA and the SPL played a dangerous game in excluding football debts to clubs outwith Scotland in the five way agreement to faciltate TRFC Ltd’s membership of SFA. They have affectively created a ‘football creditors rule’ for Scottish clubs, denying creditors their dues and excluded foreign clubs which will bring UEFA/FIFA into play.
No one in these organisations seems prepared to deal with the fire-storm that will come about after complaints to UEFA regarding unpaid fees, from Rapid Vienna, and illegally registered players, from Stuttgart.
The danger is that at the extreme end of the FIFA sanctions on national FAs it could cause problems for Scottish clubs and the national teams participating in international competitions. Not something that will cause much concern down Govan way and will probably be greeted with glee.
To take the forum topic away from Sevco/The Rangers for a moment I see that the Match 4th Official scheduled for Tynecastle this Saturday is to be one Andrew Dallas (son of Hugh).
Iam not sure if this is his first season elevated to SPL level or not? Has anybody seen him before? Has he been promoted on the basis of merit or parentage?
To take up Auldheid’s themes greater transparency of the refeeing system and selection process would be beneficial to Scottish football.
Maybe young Andrew is there on merit? but there seems to be a disproportionate number of officials from Dad Hugh’s neck of the woods compared to the rest of Scotland? Is such apparent local nepotism and favouritism a genuine concern or just the paranoia of fans from outwith the west of Scotland?
CW says:
August 16, 2012 at 01:46
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Starofdavid says:
August 16, 2012 at 00:07
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The one’s who really get on my nerves are the like of Mr Dodds. The BBC Sports department have been giving Mr Dodds a lot of air time recently, and if I’m not wrong, he’s also enjoyed a recent european jonty at our expense as well.
What hold does he have on the BBC to have survived Tax Dodging accusations, whilst at the same time claiming it had nothing to do with him, as he was only following advice from his agents/ accountants ?
I’ve stated previously, isn’t it about time we had a serious Government Public Inquiry into this whole affair.
For this to happen, 1 thing should happen immediately :
1. Newco Rangers have to be suspended from all football until The Enquiry has finished.
Then when the enquiry begins, let’s see all the main characters being brought on one by one, under oath, explaining their excuses.
Absofrickenlootely. CW
As soon as I heard Doddsy commentating on Sportsound I IMMEDIATELY turned the sound off. I was that pee’d off! Like you I cannot believe we the license payers are making up that tax cheaters wages.
Only one solution: withhold our license fees until he and the other dinosaurs have their contracts terminated.
Re: Public Enquiry. Lets bombard the SNP by email letter phone in and tv show when any of their reps are on. Time to call out Mr Salmond and see how he slithers out of this one, as of course he’d be called before it too.
Ah Scotland, the most corrupt wee footballing country in the world eh?
@ Blueskies
I think the Tartan Army should not have turned up. Or if they did should have booed the Anthem and sang protests about the cabal of conspiratorial criminals who have destroyed our game and turned it into a conspiracy to defraud.
Black plays for a fraudulent entity – as such he should not be playing any football. Any application of any rules by anybody in any governing body must have disallowed SEVCO’s application to play. The fact that this organisation has a licence to play football and is playing in the SFL under SFA auspices is a total breach of all rules. The club is fraudulent. The decision to give it a licence is fraudulent.
The acquiescence of all clubs in Scotland in this surely means we all must walk away. There is now no football in Scotland just a pretendy game used as a fraudulent means of using people’s loyalties and gullibility to defraud them of money by pretending that what they are watching is sport.
The Young Chevalier (@Glenfinnan) says:
August 16, 2012 at 10:18
A dangerous game. The SFA and the SPL played a dangerous game in excluding football debts to clubs outwith Scotland in the five way agreement to faciltate TRFC Ltd’s membership of SFA. They have affectively created a ‘football creditors rule’ for Scottish clubs, denying creditors their dues and excluded foreign clubs which will bring UEFA/FIFA into play.
No one in these organisations seems prepared to deal with the fire-storm that will come about after complaints to UEFA regarding unpaid fees, from Rapid Vienna, and illegally registered players, from Stuttgart.
The danger is that at the extreme end of the FIFA sanctions on national FAs it could cause problems for Scottish clubs and the national teams participating in international competitions. Not something that will cause much concern down Govan way and will probably be greeted with glee.
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Will that be Ian blacks international career over then?.
On a serious note,I agree with you totally.I posted on here a couple of days ago that,in my opinion,I cannot see UEFA/FIFA standing back and allowing the underhand dealings occurring in Scottish Football spreading to other countries.Unpaid fees to other clubs c/w well over a decade of illegal registrations,ineligible players playing in Euro competitions and Internationals must bring a reaction.
Unfortunately,the SFA/SPL,who must know this will almost certainly happen,still seem determined to continue breaking or bending the rules to accomodate RFC,even though the consequences could be disasterous for our game.
@ Moderators
I keep getting posts stuck – so far only one of four has passed – could you post details of what is not allowed as I am not being abusive nor using any banned terms!
Scotland is irredeemably corrupt I am afraid. It is run by a cabal of like minded individuals who use their own network to maintain their grip on power. Salmond is a part of that, The previous labour regime was too. Murray is a part of it as I syuspect are the High court judges hence the snail’s pace enquiries and the deliberate obfuscation of evidence to allow an entity called ragners to be embedded before any of the wheels of justice evejn begin. thes will be delayed by this cabal for years – probably decades and they hope to, and almost certainly will, carry on business as usual.
IF Rapid take their battle for monies owed to FIFA / UEFA, Rangers will have to state they are a new club otherwise they will surely be faced with all the liabilities of the old club. If they are a truly new club ( which they are ) they should not have paid any monies owed by the old club.
If Fifa get involved, they should hammer those charged with running our game and the club owing all the money, not the decent clubs of which their are many.
The SFA and SPL in trying to pretend the 2 rangers clubs are the one and the same have made such a mess.
Oh! what a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive
It appears we could have a bout of infighting to look forward to, as claim and counter claim are thrown about by the parties to the “agreement”
I wonder, if in the heat of the argument, someone may be just be a little indiscreet, in an effort to prove their case
Torrevieja I agree it is a dangerous game not paying Europen club debts and have Rapid not already complained to UEFA or FIFA? I understand that CG has spoken with the European authorities and presumably has been satisfied that there will be no action on their part. Of course this does not make it right but at least should minimise ramifications for our game.
BlueSkies says:
August 16, 2012 at 09:45
Given the number of thumbs down I would be grateful if someone could explain why they think it was ok for the Tartan Army to boo a Scotland player. Thanks.
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Question asked in a civil manner, so I’ll answer. 🙂
1. Mr Levein recently stated that 3rd Div players would not be suitable for his international team.
2. Mr Black is not a player with any international track record to explain why he was selected.
3. Mr Black has recently signed for Sevco.
4. The suspicion is that 3 above is the only reason why he was selected, despite 1 above.
5. Therefore, it appears that Mr Levein has been put under pressure to select a player from a 3rd Div team purely on account of the public identity of that team. The Scotland international team, apparently, must have a Rangers player in it.
6. Also, Mr Black played for Hearts until recently, and the Scotland game was at Hibs stadium.
This may have contributed to the booing. Ususally, however, local allegiances are put to one side for international games.
Charlie Brown @ 10.19 As a “Man From The West” I can say that it is a genuine concern.The standard of referees in Scotland has always been a bit dodgy ( we were not paranoid )but this new crop really takes the biscuit,we have one whistler who has eyes on both front and back,(Broadfoot penalty )unfortunately they dont work at the same time,the said whistler was facing an incident at the Edinburgh Derby at the weekend from a distance of less than 2 mtrs he missed a Blatant foul,while staring straight at the 4 men involved.It was obvious that the eyes at the back of his head were checking out a bird in the stand.
Maybe if whoever is in charge of the Refs (Billy Smart ? )stopped them trying to be the stars of the show they would get a wee bit more respect.
twopanda bears says:
August 16, 2012 at 09:29
many thanks for the detailed reply & apologies if I have missed this before
as a total layman in such matters what does confuse me is why 8-10 weeks of more fee generation when their proposal to the creditors has been booted out? (leaving aside the COI stuff)