A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
iki: Excellent point, I don’t doubt for a second that would be one of the many benefits handed to Green by the crooks and appeasers at Hampden.
easyJambo says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 16:35
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EJ,
Wondering how or if the reconstruction proposals would affect Hearts fans.Would they buy shares knowing that the league may be fixed to suit one club.?.
If you;re thinking of walking away if the SPL invite TRFC into the league,would you still stump up for shares?.
For the GOOD of Scottish football
Any reconstruction that allows Sevco fc faster entry to the top tier of our game and is sanctioned ,will never see a penny of my money pure and simple .
“invitation” is a subjective term.
It has to be by invitation because SPL 2 doesn’t exist at present. That will never mean ignoring the likes of Thistle Dunfermline Morton or Raith, and going straight to, say, Sevco to invite it in.
The SPL chairman, if they know one thing, know that their fans will not tolerate them adapting the Sevcovery position at any cost.
What I would envisage is a revamped Scottish football, with a governing association and one league body controlling all of the leagues, thorugh SPL 1, SPL 2 and on down through a proper pyramid system.
One of the reasons I’ve not been on this site for a while is frustration at the over-readiness of people, before ideas have been fully explored or explained, to jump to one conclusion and one conclusion only and steadfastly cling to it, like Craig Whyte clinging to his floater.
There are also far too many people looking for reasons to drive a wedge between the SPL and SFL instead of trying to bridge the gap. Remember some of the SPL chairmen may have given guarantees over their bank debt – “more fool them” you may say, but that doesn’t take away the fact that their homes/livelihoods may be at risk, all from their efforts to support their own club. In fact I know of at least one ex-Chairman of an ex-football club who gave a £50 Million personal guarantee which, to my knowledge, is still in existence (which is more than can be said for the club).
A little more tolerance would not go amiss in what remain difficult trading circumstances for all football clubs – the fans have their part to play, they’ve already had their part to say and were heard loud and clear by all.
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 16:54
5 0 Rate This
…. The reality is that I would bet all the money in my pocket, against all the money in your pocket, that any properly conducted survey of fan attitudes would show that fans overwhelmingly trust the diddy clubs to have the best interests of Scottish Football at heart, over the big boys any day of the week. This is a situation entirely of the SPL clubs own making.
Step one in any reconstruction has got to be the reconstruction of the Football Authorities themselves. That means amongst other things, the liquidation of the SPL and the SFL, and bringing the management of the leagues under one roof.
I very much doubt it will happen …
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Scapa, don’t the SFA have the ultimate say in this? That organisation could yet redeem some honour by imposing – or demandng – the solution that the fans and clubs vote for. I reckon you’re right about fans trusting diddiness more than the pragmatic self-interest of the SPL’ers.
My thumbsdown Finloch – run me through your shared revenue “pro rata”. what does that mean? Costs shared as well as revenue? “proft share”? Subsidies from European revenue?
Celtic’s fanbase do not think we have all been treated equally since the 19th c, and (like it or not) Celtic is a club that has connected with its fanbase and community (or arguably a fanbase that has been ghettoised into where it is now) more than any other club in Scotland.
If Scottish football could be run on best intentions, well a) it wouldn;t be where it is now and b) the world would turn counter-clockwise…
torrejohnbhoy says: Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:09
EJ,
Wondering how or if the reconstruction proposals would affect Hearts fans.Would they buy shares knowing that the league may be fixed to suit one club.?.
If you;re thinking of walking away if the SPL invite TRFC into the league,would you still stump up for shares?.
=====================================
The current share offer expires in 19th December so is unlikely to be significantly affected by the reconstruction discussions.
There are already two camps re the share purchase. Those who feel that they must do whatever is required to save the club by subscribing to the share scheme and those who insist that the current regime cannot be trusted and seem more intent on helping fund a takeover or CVA/asset purchase at some point in the not too distant future. Both want Hearts survival, so league construction will effect them equally.
Initial feedback on the main Hearts message board is a resounding no to today’s SPL proposals. How that would play out re attendances should TRFC be invited on board, I don’t know. Hearts has suffered a significant fall in ST sales of around 10% this season, mainly for internal and pricing issues, so those floaters may well have exited the scene already and we are closer to our core following.
slimshady61 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:14
I think people are more than willing to discuss the options on here, and you’d find very few who don’t think that there’s some change required to our game. I think where the bewilderment comes from is that we were told continually that anyone wanting reconstruction in the SPL wasn’t dealing in financial realities.
Now, all of a sudden, reconstruction is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It’s simply that which understandably makes several on here a little uneasy. That, and a 16-10-16 set up. Seriously? We could call it the ‘V’ league!
more detail needed – SPL Rulebook has significant sections on stadia criteria – they can adjust those to suit 24 teams – other teams may not have the time to upgrade if they rush a change – and sevco straight in on the top flight – looks sneaky – if it can be twisted and bent it will be – sorry – none of them deserves an iota of trust – and trust is earned I`m afraid
Slimshady61: The fact is those running our game cannot be trusted. As soon as they are given the go ahead by Clubs and supporters they will do what they always do and assist the Establishment Club.
iki makes a good point above as well,
iki says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:01
5 0 Rate This
How soon before we hear ……..
“Given that the reconstruction plans are designed as the way ahead for Scottish football, it would be only right that the vestiges of the past be left behind.”
For example, the term ‘SPL’.
Another example, Nimmo Smith.
If SPL no longer exists then it cannot adjudicate on matters concerning SPL
I am not against reconstruction, I just don’t trust those currently running the game to be anywhere near Scottish football when it happens.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:31
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AYAMOM
Points generally accepted, but I don’t know where you get the V league from.
It is being proposed to have two 12 team SPL leagues, which split into 3 x 8-team leagues after 22 games.
Below that, I suspect we would be looking at two further leagues of 10 teams each, allowing 2 new clubs to come in at the bottom of the structure, and a pyramid system thereafter.
Celtic’s fanbase do not think we have all been treated equally since the 19th
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How did they win those 43 titles, 35 cups, if they had not been ‘treated equally’?
The great thing about TSFM is it prides itself in being factually accurate.
So for those who have made comments earlier today that SPL attendances are up for most teams, that is not the case.
The current average home league attendance for the 10 Clubs who were in the SPL last year are (with last year in brackets):-
Celtic 45528 (50904)
Hearts 12711 (13381)
Hibs 10467 (9909)
Aberdeen 11507 (9296)
Dundee United 8708 (7481)
Motherwell 5305 (5946)
Kilmarnock 4997 (5532)
St Mirren 4569 (4492)
St Johnstone 4150 (4169)
Inverness CT 4108 (4147)
That’s 6 teams down on last year with St Mirren likely to be number 7 if Saturday’s match against Dundee attracts fewer than 3950.
Statto!
How did they win those 43 titles, 35 cups, if they had not been ‘treated equally’?
…………………………………………………………………………………………
By supporting the Club in our droves and fighting hard.
paulsatim says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 15:53
mcmurdo being ebuliant
In fact, Rangers are anticipating that the share issue will be over-subscribed, a positive thing in today’s gloomy economy.
I also understand that SFL executives are calm about Charles Green’s comments regarding the possibility of Rangers playing in the EPL, regarding it as over-exuberant sales talk from the Rangers CEO.
Apparently, Rangers are presently having to take action on two fronts – the circulating of fake documents designed to destabilise the club over the impending share issue and a genuine leak from within Ibrox. Charles Green is determined that nothing will derail the process of moving the club forward and building a warchest of substantial funds for the future. My information is that he and his consortium are working like Trojans toward this end.
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McMurdo doesn’t appear to realise that an oversubscribed share issue is a sign of failure because it means the share float price is too low which costs the new company money. AIM Investment 101. One of the trickiest things about any market float is finding the critical balance between the number of shares offered and the offer price. But thinking back to Sheffield United I seem to remember that at the time Green said it was the most oversubscribed share float in British football history. Obviously when you have a winning formula why change it 🙂
Appears even the Rangers faithful and the SFL realise that Green talks p*sh about the EPL – and what is the bulk of the MSM saying? SILENCE.
Rangers don’t need to look very far to see where their leak is coming from and it seems to me that a discredited blogger has been fed info from inside Ibrox – possibly Green doesn’t know but I would have thought that McMurdo would have sussed it by now. I am also fascinated by the leaker’s motivation and wonder what he hopes to achieve. Green should be very wary about Trojan gifts.
As to a warchest – more of the martial music and still no refrain from Zardock the Priest. Why flog a supposed 49% of Rangers right now when they don’t need any money as they have no debts and are cash rich. Why not wait and get more dosh a couple of years down the line especially since all these institutional investors are gagging for a slice of the action.
I suppose it depends whether the existing 22+ million shares held by the original investors – which have been paid for and issued to them – are the same shares which are going to be sold to the Bears and now hungry institutional investors.
Or will the float comprise of approx 20/22 million new shares and what kind of price dilution might that cause to the original investor who Green has said publicly, more than once, won’t be selling their shares.
Still the prospectus will need to be issued soon or he won’t be meeting a Xmas flotation to we’ll know one way or t’other before long. One thing for sure, the revving of the PR machine and Ibrox feel good factor will hit crescendo heights.
While I agree with the sentiment expressed by many people on here, that if the league is reconstructed they will walk away, one must bear in mind that there is a long way to go before it becomes a fait accompli.
What about the new found strength of fora like TSFM etc.. we must play to our strengths and
mobilise all the bampots in Scotland. We will, as a growing and significant element in the rebuilding of the game in Scotland, be listened to, but we must act collectively. Remember the game belongs to us we are the power, but we must focus and use that power where it counts most. Walking away is not an option, what about your children and grandchildren?
The poll results which was on TSFM for barely two days indicates that there are at least five/six hundred followers of TSFM. Add in family members and very quickly you are talking a couple of thousand fans, and this is but one forum. Boards of clubs are not stupid they will not risk major hemmorrhaging of support from their club to force through a reconstruction that was promulgated to ultimately suit one club.
Danish Pastry says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:20
DP the SFA do have a huge role to play, but, again, largely as a result of their own actions, I don’t believe a significant number of the fans, or even the clubs, would trust them.
Slim
Again I find myself in broad agreement. Except, I would argue, that the SPL clubs themselves, have been, and continue to be, the most prolific wedge drivers. I don’t know what it’s going to take to sort this mess out, but, the current indulgence in megaphone diplomacy ain’t helping.
It’s going to take statesmanship, and given the 11-1 voting structure, a lot of that statesmanship is going to have to come from Celtic.
jockybhoy says:
Celtic’s fanbase do not think we have all been treated equally since the 19th
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How did they win those 43 titles, 35 cups, if they had not been ‘treated equally’?
Try following a ‘diddy’ club, you’ll find out all about not being ‘treated equally’!
Funny how Ally never ever saw any probs with the old voting structure when Rangers and Celtic dominated.
The sad thing is, that even though RFC are essentially gone, the blue bogeyman is still influencing Scottish football to a degree that even an eventual common-sense reform might be scuppered. It will a tragedy if blue angst guides fans’ decisions.
Anyway, any proposals might look entirely different after the FTT and other judgements register. And if Mr Green is the fantasist he appears to be you’ve got to wonder what other little fibs he’s been telling – perhaps about the true financial state of his debt-free enterprise?
arabest: It is historical fact that Celtic have not been treated equally. Celtic supporters had to come out in their droves to make Celtic rich enough to compete against the Establishment Club and the corrupt Football authorities. Any Club with a fan base our size would still be capable of competing despite bias.
A title every other year and a cup every 3rd year….I wish my club faced such bias!
arabest: Not if it was bias based on your race on religion you wouldn’t.
*or religion
We all know that change is required in our game.
We all know that the SFA want sevco back in the top flight.
We also know that we do not need sevco as we have an SPL that is very competitive at present and crowds have increased.
We know that the MSM want sevco back and pander to the peepil
We do not want sevco at the top until as a new club they get there through merit.
We do not need to pander to the peepil.
The SFA have got to remember how the fans stood as one in the name of sporting integrity.
We have done it once and we may have to do it again.
Glasgow Celtic are and have always been a central pillar of the Scottish football establishment, I back this ‘fact’ up with their trophy haul, roughly 40% of those on offer, pretty impressive by any measure. My club, and others, were products of the Irish diaspora, and we’ve won a fraction of the trophies Celtic have, is this because of race or religion? by your rational it must be! 😉
There is one condition missing from the SPL reconstruction proposals
All clubs must commit to closing any section of the ground where sectarian singing continues despite fair warning being given to the fans involved
This clearly NOT a condition for membership in the SFL but it must be in the new SPL
arabest1: Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
just heard doncaster on the radio saying that reconstruction has to happen to preserve the full time clubs ,how many clubs are part time just now and is this another way to fast track sevco
How can any reconstruction happen next season when there are rules that require a season’s notice for any change? I seem to remember both the SFL and SPL having such requirements.
Does anyone else remember these rules or can find them easily? If they exist, there could be a legal recourse to stopping this happening next season.
Fighting fund anyone?
I appreciate such sentiments are sacrilegious is some quarters, but the ‘fact’ remains (excluding Rangers) Glasgow Celtic did better than everyone else put together for the last 100 years! I note you offer no explanation as to why this might be.
Arabest The problem here seems to be your club not Celtic,should we fans be sorry that our club has won a lot of trophies,of course not.The reason Celtic were treated quite badly for many many years is simple,we were the dead clubs biggest rival,religion was also a reason for the ‘treatment’.There is nothing wee people hate more than something or someone they cant control.Every club in Scotland suffered because of the support of the dead club from the people who have run our game,infighting will serve no purpose,let’s leave that to Sevco.
arabest1: I did give you an explanation in an earlier post, you don’t have higher attendances for than every other Club for 125 years without being financially stronger, financial strength = a better team.
I don’t know how you can possibly believe that racism and sectarianism didn’t find its way into Scottish football but did into every other part of Scottish society.
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:13
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arabest1: Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
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How patronising, how typical!
So lets say Sevco are invited to SPL 2.
Mid season Sevco are within the top 4 in SPL2
(A) Top 8 in SPL1 split.
(B) Bottom 4 in SPL1 and top 4 in SPL 2 join up
(C) The rest of SPL 2 play each other with no chance of promotion to SPL1
at the end of the season, only to avoid relegation.
Top 4 teams in (B) join the 8 teams in (A) making SPL1
Bottom 4 teams in (B) join teams in (C) (assuming one promotion an one relegated team).
So Sevco in SPL1 in one year.
Of course assuming they are invited. Which I do not doubt they will irrespective of the feelings of the fans.
IMO of course.
is it just me or are we just adding TWO teams to the 1st Div ?
why don’t we have a 42 team Div. Sooooperbo !!
and play each other twice …. 82 game season ???
maybeees ??
Neil eh ???
Tic 6709 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:25
Well said, we are united in our abhorrence at the dead club and its cheating. Let’s use that to win our case.
Shoul have read as:
(C) The rest of SPL 2 play each other with no chance of promotion to SPL1 only to avoid relegation.
at the end of the season, Top 4 teams in (B) join the 8 teams in (A) making SPL1
Arabest
Hey homey, cut with da dissin you bro on here or you get a cap popped in you ass. Lets keep da street cool, bro.
(Slopedoggydog.)
Sorry having trouble with D&P on my keyboard, those bloody administrators still causing trouble!
arabest1: I honestly didn’t mean to come across as patronising, please accept my apology for my comment coming across like that. I have the utmost respect for you and never intended any ill will towards yourself.
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 16:54
Step one in any reconstruction has got to be the reconstruction of the Football Authorities themselves. That means amongst other things, the liquidation of the SPL and the SFL, and bringing the management of the leagues under one roof.
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This, times 100. Any league reconstruction without that happening will see the guys at the top soon manoeuvering to undo anything to the advantage of the smaller clubs and re-instate the old self-preservation league system.
Off course – if they were put straight into the top flight – which they`ll `demand` as a `right` – they`d have to relax the transfer ban wouldn`t they now – and any penalties emanating from LN? – Well they`d have to be put back 10 years at least – aka dropped– oh sorry – and they`ll need a reverse parachute payment to step up into the breach – oh and CG may want a few more concessions thrown in – sorry confidential conditions – such as future voting structures……..oh and no stripped titles by the way………or anything else we didn`t like in the 5-way agreement ………..we`ll call it the 24-way agreement shall we – in which only 8 can vote but nowt will happen without the say so of two. But they`ll let us know anything else they may want just a few hours before the start of the season.
[sorry – that`s the manner they`ve exhibited – anyone want to say that`s too far-fetched on previous?]
Two leagues of 12 splitting into leagues of 8 to avoid meaningless mid-league matches. With our top league in the hands of Doncaster, I really do fear for the future of the game. A obvious case of league fixing is about to take place right in front of our eyes.
OK, I mostly go to diddy teams in the 2nd and 3rd these days, but I have been going to matches, often as a neutral, for over 50 years. The 3rd Div has been spoiled by interlopers, who had no right to be admitted to any league.
No sensible way forward now as far as I can see. 🙁 Where are the supporters in this decision-making? Pushed aside as usual.
(And this week my mind is going back to 1969, and my walk fae Shettleston tae Parkhead where we saw a great 3-0 victory by Celtic over Benfica; followed by a 0-3 defeat away and the final result decided by the toss of a coin.)
I wish interviewers would learn to listen to the answers given and to check if the original question has been answered before going onto their next question.
On Sportsound, Doomcaster is asked if TRFC would be involved in the new set up. His answer is not Yes or No. He says that it will be a meritocracy. Turnbull Hutton asks Doomcaster about stadium criteria (seats and undesoil heating), using Cowdenbeath as an example. Doomcaster says those issues would form part of their discussions and that rules for entry would be agreed by 3rd December.
So there we have it. Doomcaster doesn’t give a straight answer to TRFC’s involvement, but confirms that stadium criteria would be agreed aspart of the rules and considerations for entry.
It’s a new set-up, just like the old set-up (puns intended)
arabest1 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:33
4 6 Rate This
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:13
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arabest1: Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
How patronising, how typical!
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The worst of this blog summed up in a single post; patronising Hoops fan, sanctimonious Arab….
bill1903 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 16:48
Like quite a few on here I’m very much in favour in change as it is desperately needed.
What irks me is the fact that this is being done for one reason and one reason only .
>>They are desperate for Charlie Greens Barmy army to get back to the top league as soon as possible.<<<
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Don't know how to do bold on this site so "<<"s. That's the problem: they are thinking only about getting Sevco back so:
1) They're no considering fully or carefully enough the needs of other clubs and of Scottish Football set up as a whole.
2) They are in such a hurry to get them back, that any plan they come up with won't have had the time spent on it to make sure it is long term (even short term) workable and won't end up a mess.
whisperer18 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:47
5 0 Rate This
is it just me or are we just adding TWO teams to the 1st Div ?
why don’t we have a 42 team Div. Sooooperbo !!
and play each other twice …. 82 game season ???
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….followed by the best of this blog – fantastic nonsense that has promise and is wholly plausible.
Whisperer, I think you are on the right track but it needs to be taken further to have more “less meaningless” games…
Say a 42 team league, play each other twice then a split into 6 leagues of 7 (or is it 7 leagues of 6?) who play each other twice; then there is a winter break , followed by promotion and relegation based on a co-efficient based on (i) results, (ii) number of worldwide fans, (iii) colour of strip, (iv) number of appearances on BBC Alba, and in the case of a tie whether Jabba thinks you should be promoted/relegated.
slimshady61 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:18
0 1 Rate This
arabest1 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:33
4 6 Rate This
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:13
0 0 Rate This
arabest1: Sorry mate, but you are way off the mark.
How patronising, how typical!
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The worst of this blog summed up in a single post; patronising Hoops fan, sanctimonious Arab….
……………………………………………………………………………………
That’s a bit sanctimonious and patronising itself to be fair!
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 17:31
Now, all of a sudden, reconstruction is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It’s simply that which understandably makes several on here a little uneasy. That, and a 16-10-16 set up. Seriously? >>We could call it the ‘V’ league!<<
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Hah! Proof that Scottish Football is run by alien lizards! 🙂
redetin says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:10
‘..1969, and my walk fae Shettleston tae Parkhead.’
—–
I think I passed you on Westmuir St! 🙂
Did anyone think that the Spl wouldn’t come up with a scheme whereby Rangers were fastracked back to the second tier of Scottish football?
The only wonder is that they’re not shoehorning them back into the top flight.
SSB Derek Johnstone stated SO FAR
Rangers as a team are hated by all fans in SPL and Charles Green knows this.
Everyone has had a kick at them
There will be ruptions when they RETURN to SPL as the fans will not forget.
It is beyond me what Rangers have done to deserve this treatment.
How does this reconstruction work?.
Are we in effect playing 22 qualifiers to decide which league we’ll play in?.
What happens next.Do we all go back to zero points or are points carried on in Div 1 & 3.
They can’t be carried into div 2.he teams that finish in the top 4 of SPL 2 are going to have more points than the bottom 4 in SPL 1.
Questions,Questions!
easyJambo says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:11
‘..Doomcaster doesn’t give a straight answer to TRFC’s involvement, but confirms that stadium criteria would be agreed aspart of the rules and considerations for entry. .’
——
Yes, that had me wondering too. Neither Spence nor English followed through with a question on how the ‘meritocracy’ idea would apply at the end of this season- simply being top of 3rd division, or what?
They should have pinned him down to define the criteria of merit.
I’m not happy that they left him wriggle room.
I don’t often resort to capitalisation on the internet, but I will make an exception now- THIS IS A SCAM, A FIX TO HASTEN TRFC INTO THE TOP FLIGHT. Nothing more to it than that. We will be fed a load of nonsense about stadium size, undersoil heating, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah, rule bending, rule breaking, rule making, but it will all come down to just that one thing in the end. TRFC in the SPL without playing for it.
Stepping over more deserving clubs, just as they did to get into SFL3 (that’s what’s called dignity in bonnie Scotland, by the way). If the clubs vote for this, the game in Scotland is finished. Do not let your club vote for this. And if your club does vote for it, never darken their doors again. This is a serious turning point for Scottish football.
If this goes through, it’s back to the future, the blazers and brown brogues will rise triumphant from the ashes of RFC. Stop this vile scam whatever it takes, otherwise the last 12 months will be nothing but a minor footnote in the history of the Scottish game.
Yes, the game needs change. Let’s for a start change the people at the top, proven to be conflicted and corrupt (and incompetent, of course,I almost forgot! )- then sort out the rest.
I can understand a degree of almost knee jerk cynicism kicking in after the events of this year. Anything Doncaster says must be checked over for the hidden pro the club that used to be called Rangers agenda. Turnbull Hutton is the voice of truth. But I’m going to do my best to keep an open mind on this proposal for the time being because (and I can hardly believe I’m writing this) for the first time I heard Neil Doncaster on Sportsound this evening without feeling the urge to shout out loud and smash my radio.
A few things he said are worth emphasis. For the first time ever there is actually a consensus of all 12 clubs in the SPL for a way ahead. That may be at a high level, not the devil in the detail stuff, but nevertheless that is huge progress. Normally he has to talk to an agenda that is as incohesive as the 12 disparate voices behind it.
Secondly, that consensus is about a way to put some wealth further down the league set up. There is a financial cliff between the top 12 and Div 1 and it is a big problem for professional clubs at risk of relegation. A willingness to spread some wealth down to reduce the disparity would be good.
Thirdly Doncaster said the invites would be a meritocracy and there would be no special treatment for one club.
I’m not suggesting that suddenly all is wonderful. It isn’t. But one up one down from the top flight and the financial cliff have been unhealthy features of the current set up.
There will be a lot of politics to play out here but possibly a league set up of 12/12/18 (or not 18 depending on what suits the SFL clubs and works in a pyramid structure) may evolve with a consensus emerging. If it emerges that this is a stitch up to benefit Rangers that will become apparent. But I think the SPL Chairmen got the message re the strength of feeling this summer. Fingers crossed, this could (emphasis could) be a positive development.
It is now over three weeks since, according to RTC, that the FTTT verdict was delivered to the relevant parties.
What is the record for a verdict being delivered and publication of a result?
I believe they are now haggling over the anonimity of witnesses. For goodness sake give them all anonimity and get the bloomin’ thing published!
The longer this farce drags on the worse the stench of corruption becomes.
We have a media incapable of asking a searching question.
A judicary at odds with itself.
A first minister of intervention.
A conflicted President of the national association.
A clown of a Chief Executive of the national association threatening member clubs.
A Chief Executive of the SPL who undermines and talks down his own product while in the middle of media negotiations.
An SPL investigation stalled due to an accident with no new date set.
It would be easier to find out who shot Kennedy.
John Clarke/Redetin ah 1969 I hope you were in ground early as Tommy Gemmell Scored in first minute. Our other goals came from Willie Wallace and Harry Hood. Another huge attendance 67,000 if I remember correctly. I was in jungle swaying about with 20,000 other fans. I also remember Eusebio as a great player but also a great sportsman also. Celtic feared no team in those days and as fans we felt we could take on the world.
arabest1 says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:07
. My club, and others, were products of the Irish diaspora, and we’ve won a fraction of the trophies Celtic have, is this because of race or religion? by your rational it must be! 😉
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Not picking on you arabest, just last post I saw to use the term.
I dislike the use of race – partly pedantically as it’s not a term that applies here. Most Irish people, Scots people and even a lot of English people are to a great degree Celtic genetically with small admixtures of English and many other races thrown.
Historically many Scots have descended from Irish national families who suffered prejudice and some persecution when they came here (as did some later generations). But that’s nothing to do with race (which is a problematic thing anyway). It’s not even about real nationalism (the kind that is anti-immigrant) nowadays but is kind of left-over hate handed down as a kind of twisted inheritance.
I hope this doesn’t come across as either patronising or sanctimonious 🙂 As I read through the exchange between arabest and ordinaryfan I couldn’t help think of the post by Mr Neepheid earlier today that impressed me greatly. Perhaps not totally irrelevant:
neepheid says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 13:56
39 0 Rate This
==========================
“…I post as a lifelong Celtic supporter, brought up, as many were in those long ago days, with the firm belief that “everyone’s agin us”, and that most clubs in Scotland were a sort of “mini Rangers”, with just a few exceptions. Many younger than me may not recognise that mindset, but it really did exist back then.
The events of last summer were negative in many respects, but positive in this- I learned that most people in Scottish football, outside the West of Scotland bubble, are honest, principled and committed supporters of the game, and aren’t interested in the whole “old firm” thing, except as it adversely affects them.”
Captain Haddock says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 18:24
—-
Rule 12 of the SFL’s Constitution and Rules require a 2-season period of notice ( or a two thirds majority at a general meeting) before resignation is allowed .
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/docs/009__034__constitution__rules__SFL_Constitution__Rules__1346425915.pdf
The SFA likewise have a two season period of notice before a member can resign.
Haven’t found a corresponding rule in the SPL’s Articles.
Charlie: Right, let’s see how we can get some changes through?
I’ll get the SFL to propose some ludicrous suggestion about how to restructure the league then anything you suggest will seem brilliant.
They’ll fall for that Donkey, won’t they, won’t they?
justshatered says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:52
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Lee Harvey Oswald.
Just saying.
And they did land on the moon. 🙂
Interesting spat between Arabest and Ordinary Fan. FWIW I thibk Arabest has sought to look at cold statistics which would suggest that Celtic’s success reveals a lack of discrimination. Ordinary Fan points to an undeniable history of unjust decisions, historical vendettas. honest mistakes, casual and routine discrimination and a proven record of anti-catholic sentiment and action from officers of the SFA.
The truth is found in both. There has always been a distaste and residual hostility to Celtic within the sfa but this has never been translated into systematic cheating against them. Thus they have been vilified to some degree but not sufficiently to deny them the success which their finances and fan base have generated. Hence both paranoid and justified.
monsieurbunny says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 20:11
Lee Harvey Oswald.
_________________________________________________________________
Topper. I supposed I asked for that.
If he had done it in Scotland we would still be waiting on a verdict.
Hell if he’d done it in Scotland he would have got a medal.
As for the moon landing……………………………………… could they not have taken some of our officials with them and left them there.
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/36080918823/the-second-coming
New blog on the SPL’s proposals.
They’re absolutely awful. I know that previously on here I had the conversation regarding the trouble of using Rangers as an excuse to prevent change. This is one of those situations where using Rangers as an excuse to prevent a plan from going ahead is 100% valid. Hardly the only reason to do so either!
ordinaryfan says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:27
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🙂
Couldn’t find the “patronising” smiley..but at the risk of sounding patronising, perhaps someone could point me in the right direction??
ND………….a consensus of all 12 clubs in the SPL for a way ahead
Well that`s not hard is it?
– 11 of those 12 stay the same – all they do is take over SFL1 effectively as SPL2 and the new second flight can share out whatever they make. A few more play-offs but sevco in SPL1 [subject to CG conditions so we`ll give him a couple of weeks to draw up his demands] Have they decided to placate his demands by this SPL decision on rules of entry being set early December before the Christmas share thing – it would seem they have
I do not expect Doncaster to provide us with any further information until after the SPL vote is held.
IMO what I would like to see happen for a SPL1 and SPL2 would be as follows:
No relegation from SPL and the 12 teams would become SPL1
No relegation from SFL div1 these 10 teams and the two first and second placed clubs in SFL div2, would become SPL2.
The remaining SFL div 2 teams, including 2 promoted from SFL div3 would form SFL1
The remaining SFL3 teams plus two from the Highland league would form SFL2.
Each season there would be two relegations and promotions up and down the divisions.
justshatered says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:52
Looking at the list of actors and misdemeanors you list – its sad to think that the only people who are profiting from this shambles (at the moment) are Media House and various legal practices.
The only thing that gives me hope at the moment is that that fans of Scottish football stood up to be counted over the summer when they and we rightly demanded sporting integrity – and that they and we will do so again if the need arises.
neepheid says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:39
I don’t often resort to capitalisation on the internet, but I will make an exception now- THIS IS A SCAM, A FIX TO HASTEN TRFC INTO THE TOP FLIGHT. Nothing more to it than that…
=====================
I agree NH.
Whilst becoming ever more cynical, [for which I blame RTC & now TSFM 😉 ], I can’t help being suspicious about the timing of these ‘reconstruction proposals’ – and whether they are simply providing a diversion away from other TRFC and SFA related issues.
However, assuming that the reconstruction proposals are genuine, then IMO TRFC will be slotted into the top tier, regardless.
If the SFA/SFL/SPL are not going to admit at this early stage that any restructuring is to aid TRFC’s progress to the top league, then they may as well extend the charade.
There is simply too much risk to have TRFC dropped into a second-tier league. What if TRFC cannot gain promotion to the top league for several seasons ?
If – as many believe – reconstruction is specifically to help TRFC, then TRFC will somehow find itself ‘parachuted’ into the top league, based on non-meritocratic criteria.
I believe that would be the ‘logical’ solution, [whilst ignoring sporting integrity again 🙁 ], but of course this does not take into account the fans’ reaction, e.g. a repeat of fans’ protests during the summer.
iceman: Lot’s of fair points Iceman, I would have to disagree wholeheartedly with this comment though……..
“The truth is found in both. There has always been a distaste and residual hostility to Celtic within the sfa but this has never been translated into systematic cheating against them.”
I believe in recent years Jim Farry and George Peat have both proved that inaccurate, and I would also point to a comment from Bertie Vogts Autobiography, (who I suppose could be fairly described as a “neutral”) where he said that Tommy Burns would have got the job after he left, IF Burns was from the blue side of Glasgow. It is nowhere near as bad as it was, I suspect most of it nowadays is more to help the Establishment Club than to hinder Celtic F.C.
justshatered says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 19:52
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Understandable frustration but we’re dealing with a ‘top’ firm of Edinburgh lawyers here and if they say the earth is flat, then everything stops till someone proves otherwise.
I suspect the published decision when it comes will be, by far, the longest every put into print in the three and a bit years the FTT has been in business.
Anonymisation will be the biggest task for the editor and of course on RTC last year several of us opined that the tribunal judge had erred in permitting anonymity in the first place.
But we are where we are and they are maybe just trying to come up with suitable monikers for the anonymous folk who testified…we’ve already had some, here are a few more
“Ironside”
“Tanned ex-director”
“Mr Conflicted”
“useless Dutch defender”
“two footed, overpriced Dane”
“living Rangers legend”
“Dutch twin #1”
“Dutch twin #2”
“one paced, overpriced Englishman”
“overpaid, underused goalkeeper”
“the Italian stallion”
“Worried auditor”
“very worried supplier of tax schemes”
“relaxed ex-QC”
“Wee Doddsy”
Let the presses roll !
Green insists that he has bought the history and he is now being allowed to buy the future.