A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
Tuesday 20 November 2012
Second-tier candidates sought as SPL agree to changes
Richard Wilson
Sports writer
The Scottish Premier League intends to push ahead with plans to invite a number of clubs to break away from the Scottish Football League to form an expanded, two-tier top-flight.
inShare1
All 12 SPL teams agreed at a meeting yesterday change is essential, and that adding a second division would best serve their sporting and commercial interests.
The proposals are still to be finalised before a formal vote on December 3, but it is expected the agreement will be reached on two leagues of 12, with a mid-season split into three divisions of eight to contest the championship and European places, promotion and relegation, and relegation to a pyramid structure.
The SPL clubs will also draw up the criteria by which teams will be invited to join them and, while no special case will be made for Rangers, the likelihood is the Ibrox side would be considered among “the full-time clubs that invest so much in community and youth, and those who aspire to be in the top league”.
The plans also counter proposals drawn up by the SFL for a 16-10-16 structure, which all 30 member clubs voted in favour of last week, but Neil Doncaster insists that there will not be an outbreak of civil war among the bodies.
“There was a unanimous view we should be looking at a new league structure which involves expansion at the top end,” the SPL chief executive said. “It should be one that looks after those who are full-time professional clubs, but also those who aspire to be full-time professional clubs. Also, it should be a structure that ensures meaningful and exciting games, provides competition and works from a financial point of view.
“All [the governing bodies] exist on the same corridor at Hampden. We all want a model that works for all levels. We have to remember that the SPL already redistributes nearly 20% of its income to the lower levels. But we have to have a model that ensures that when clubs are relegated, for sporting reasons, they don’t suffer financial collapse as a result.
“At the moment, there is such a wide gap between 12th and 13th position that we end up with clubs struggling to manage that gap.”
Brenda says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:47
Diddy Team
rangerstaxcase says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:48
Cheers again RTC, clear and succinct. I will endeavour to keep my knickers untwisted for a while longer.
Brenda says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:47
Division 3!
Danish Pastry says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:38
arabest1 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 08:47
5 1 Rate This
_____________
Your post might get a flurry of TDs arabest but I do believe you’re correct in some of your observations. I once asked a very ‘passionate’ Rangers supporter if he had any idea of how people outwith Glasgow and the bluenose fraternity actually perceive Rangers. I drew a blank from him plus a bit of abuse along the lines that I was a Celtic supporter, or words to that effect. Neutrals probably view both Glasgow teams with the same contempt / admiration. I’m sure many supporters of teams throughout Scotland have felt it was just as difficult to get a penalty at Ibrox as it was at Celtic Park, and that the unholy alliance that was the OF was all powerful.
On the deeper issues of historic discrimination involved I personally feel sympathy towards the green end of Glasgow. I grew up in the East End and know the streets and the people. I still have family there. Oddly enough, I reckon the only reason we didn’t actually walk down to Parkhead on match days is because we felt we didn’t ‘belong’, strange as that may sound. Celtic supporters here may not thank me for saying this but the perception – looking in – was that you had to be somehow connected to the Emerald Isle. We have zero family connections with that island and therefore the ethos around Celtic was kind of alien. Our family was ‘mixed’ so religion didn’t enter into it really. Ironic that a few years later I felt even more alienated from the blue side of Glasgow, when it dawned on me how they celebrated their connections to the Emerald Isle. Probably no wonder you can end up spending the greater part of your life as an exile
On reflection, there is a huge difference in the way the green and blue side of Glasgow celebrate their Irish connections. I would say that Celtic’s is much more natural and benign in its nature. It’s still a bit foreign to me but vastly more appealing than the alternative. I suppose in an ideal world the two big Glasgow teams would put more emphasis on their Scottish identity
=================================================================
good post.
i remember watching a documentary about the america/irish.
after so many generations, it did not concern them one jot of where their anscestors came from, whether the were from belfast, dublin, cork, colraine or whether they were catholic, protestant, presbeterian, hindu, moslem, whether they were republican, unionist, etc, etc, all they knew and cared about was, they came from ireland – they were from ireland – they were irish and that meant, the americans were from irish descent.
a very good and simplistic way to see the matter.
thebasharmilesteg says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:41
_____________________________________________
You’re right. Every individual no matter how great they are need an excellent support structure around them, Ferguson, Stein, and Mclean are no different. What I do think about these 3 individuals though are that they’re very similar men in attitude and a very strong mentality. All this mental strenght I think was gained from their working class Scottish backgrounds and every single fan of Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Celtic were very lucky to have had them as managers at periods in their histories.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:05
2 0 i
Rate This
Daniel Geey @FootballLaw
Big news that the FIFA Football Committee has asked FIFA to prohibit third-party ownership throughout the game.
========================================================
Do holding companies count?.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Daniel Geey is an associate with Field Fisher Waterhouse whose offices were given as the address for Sevco 5088Ltd when that company was formed on 29 March this year.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/concerns-raised-over-new-bidder.17574712?_=05c56d0e5b0b0c86a59e37db04d6d9f9d0d2a40c
They are also advising Rangers on the IPO and their partner Laurence Lumb is reported (see below) as being a director of the newly fomed Rangers Football plc.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/new-rangers-plc-director-linked-to-harper-macleod-exclusive-revelation-by-ecojon/
Daniel seems to have a keen interest in football so you you would have thought they should know what they are getting into.
That being said Paul McConville and Ecojon appear to have found earlier links of FFW to Green through the Formnation Group.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/charles-green-and-craig-whyte-connections-or-coincidences/
angus1983 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 09:44
3 0 Rate This
essexbeancounter says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 22:30
All the false dawns re the decision being made but known only to the immediate parties, redaction, typos etc are just that…false dawns.
——
Thanks for that info, essex. I wonder, in that case, what happened to the assurances that it was going to be out in October?
What could the hold-up be?
==================================
Or how about the twitterers who reliably informed the world 3 weeks ago that a) the FTT decision was in the hands of the parties to the appeal b) it was 250 pages long and c) the really juicy bits were on pages 220 to 240 or somesuch? All sounds pretty convincing, doesn’t it?
There will be redaction in the published decision, but the decision will have been written from scratch in a way that does not identify any of the individuals involved. So I don’t think that can explain the delay in releasing the decision.
So what is the hold-up? I haven’t a clue. It’s over 6 months now, which is extraordinary. Someone floated a theory, here or on RTC, that the delay was possibly due to interaction with criminal matters, and that publication might prejudice prosecution. That is a possible explanation, but obviously I don’t know if it’s correct.
Maybe the decision will be published tomorrow, maybe it’s actually 250 pages long, in which case I’ve got a bunnet to chew on. Pass the salt and pepper!
Re FTT timescales. Had a squint back ont he tribunal website to a customs duty case I was involved with. Briefly:
We took an action in 1994 classifying a product for import at a certain rate.
Proscuted in 1997. disputed it.
Won in 2002 the duty amount refunded.
Chased the interest till 2006 – lost.
Finally closed 2009.
Relax – even i had forgotten the final decision
corsicacharity says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 22:53
Rate This
I went back to the Scottish 1973-74 season just out of interest to see what the situation was back then. I don’t have the actual results (anyone know where I could find these?)
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Hi Corsicacharity,
Thanks for a great post. Here is a good website for the information you require:
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/division-one-old/1973-1974/results/1973-09-22
If you click on results on the left hand side, you can check various dates on a calender for that season to see results. It is a good site to wander about in now and then.
arabest1 says How many clubs could merely bear their teeth, and have referees and referee supervisors sacked?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Which Club did that!? If you are referring to Dallas, Celtic never made ANY complaint whatsoever about this bigot and Dougie McDonald was caught lying and trying to collude with others, he was exposed by Craven which led to him facing disciplinary charges for his unprecedented attempt of collusion. Again Celtic never asked for any punishment, they just asked for the truth, the truth led to Dougie facing disciplinary charges.
Celtic are not part of The Establishment, wielding power because of our financial strength does not equate to Establishment. Rangers men have always held all of the power at Hampden, ALWAYS, even to this very day they lurk in the shadows, hand picked for certain jobs, jobs like making sure Dual Contracts were overlooked and never questioned.
ayrjag says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 00:06
9 0 i
Rate This
I think pricing is a crucial aspect in the current climate. For me and 2 10 year olds to got to Firhill costs £17 – the price of my ticket. To go to Somerset, which we probably do more often, sets me back £31 (1 x 15 + 2 x 8). As far as catering is concerned, I don’t know if the price differential is significant or not but the admission price alone must enough to tempt others along.
I can’t understand why more clubs don’t offer a similar incentive. Personally, I know we’ve been to many more games since it was introduced …….
__________________________________________________
This is probably the only kind of real evidence there is and could only be got by interviewing a lot of people. Thing is crowds have been down in previous years and didn’t increase all that much if at all with “kids go free” – though it hasn’t been going that long and it’s a long term project to get kids and their parents into the habit of going to games. This season there’s been a big increase in crowds – but then we’re top of our division and been winning lots of games.
That doesn’t mean it hasn’t been having an effect just it’s hard to judge. Our crowds were declining when we introduced it but we don’t know if they’d have been worse if we hadn’t. Crowds obviously would have been up anyway this season and we can’t judge whether the ‘kids go free’ has significantly added to that.
However the team’s doing well this season and a lot of kids are seeing this and hopefully – if we can keep our current management team together – we’ll do well for the next few seasons and manage to brainwash a few poor weans into becoming long term Jags supporters. Naturally we’re not telling them that periods of Thistle success are always followed by long periods of misery. 🙂
bill1903 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 08:11
David Beckham announces he’s going to leave LA Galaxy.
I expect Charlie to announce this morning that T’Rangers are seriously interested in him and of course he’d love to come
======================================================================
…and Mrs Beckham and the four kids.?..I can just see them playing happy families on the sunny sands of Govan…!
What a headline/photo opportunity for the MSM…I can see Jabba salivating already…and not a piece of lamb or mutton, even, in sight…!
angus1983 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 09:44
essexbeancounter says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 22:30
All the false dawns re the decision being made but known only to the immediate parties, redaction, typos etc are just that…false dawns.
——
Thanks for that info, essex. I wonder, in that case, what happened to the assurances that it was going to be out in October?
What could the hold-up be?
=======================================================================
Angus…this does seem a mystery.
At yet another beancounter’s meeting a few weeks ago, no less than the man himself, Andrew Thornhill QC, head of Pump Court chambers, intimated to me that for many good reasons, the decision had to be made public by the end of October. Needless to say, we are all still waiting.
essexbeancounter says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:36
bill1903 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 08:11
David Beckham announces he’s going to leave LA Galaxy.
I expect Charlie to announce this morning that T’Rangers are seriously interested in him and of course he’d love to come
======================================================================
…and Mrs Beckham and the four kids.?..I can just see them playing happy families on the sunny sands of Govan…!
What a headline/photo opportunity for the MSM…I can see Jabba salivating already…and not a piece of lamb or mutton, even, in sight…!
————————————————-
There ai’nt much meat on that womans bones. You’d struggle to get a good pot of soup. 😀
New on here, but been reading for a long long time. Since around 5, I’m told.
Anyway, to the brief fall out re Celtic’s suppression by the establishment. I can’t really recall pre-Stein times, although older newspapers appear to have produced sizeable reports on their matches in comparison to, say, Partick Thistle, Clyde, Third Lanark and Queens Park. Not Rangers, right enough.
But to their standing today. I believe the SFA (and SFL when they rent out Hampden) operate a favourable policy to Celtic re a ‘Celtic End’, and opposition clubs are allocated the opposite end of the ground, no matter their geographical location. I also understand this privilege extends to dressing rooms. I would think this is a psychological advantage to Celtic when they reach the National Stadium, but feel free to disagree.
The invitation to “Rangers” to join SPL 2 – if it comes – will simply mark the end of Scottish football as a legitimate sporting activity.
At that point absolutely no-one can argue that what we have seen is anything less than league fixing. There will be absolutely no point in anyone following the game anymore It will be followed by significant collapse in the support of all clubs. I hope that if the day of such an invitation arrives then no fans set foot in any SPL ground until the decision is revoked.
Luckily for all of us, I suspect howver that the finaces of Zombie FC are such that the SPL will be let off the hook as the beast dies its second death. The entire future of Scottish Football is now dependent upon SEVCO’s collaps. If they survive then the SPl will destroy the game by inviting them in .
I just hope that the clubs understand this reality and do not invite T’Rangers in – if they do then far from being a source of revenue the presence of T’Rangers will be their shadow of death as each club succumbs to the will of their absent fans – that will indeed be armageddon for the game in Scotland. . Very few, if any, clubs will survive the drop off in support ( I suspect Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and many others will lose the majority of their support – Celtic will lose a significant portion.) A league in which its participants are dying off week by week will not survive. In essence thisi new league structure will become very rapidly a one team freak show divorced entirely from the sport of football.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:41
—————————————————
Obviously it was self protection. Can you imagine what TRFC and their fans reaction would be like if key decisions were given against them by the usual 3rd division referees? By givnig them SPL level refs they nip that one in the bud (not the reaction maybe but they have covered their backs).
Of course, it’s wrong but understandable in a way. (Except if you have to do that for one club what does that say about that club?)
God your good iceman
iceman63 says: The invitation to “Rangers” to join SPL 2 – if it comes – will simply mark the end of Scottish football as a legitimate sporting activity.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Doncaster has already refused to rule at further League corruption. It is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. When they get the go ahead from Clubs they will do what they have always done and assist the Establishment Club.
Let us not forget something here, Regan, Doncaster, Ogilvy, all of those in charge, have made their position clear, they have publicly stated, that they are 100% convinced that Scottish football NEEDS a Rangers, and they have said that they absolutely believe that Tribute Act should be allowed a faster route to the top, this is a fact.
iceman63 says: (Edit)
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 12:02
10 0
Rate This
The invitation to “Rangers” to join SPL 2 – if it comes – will simply mark the end of Scottish football as a legitimate sporting activity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Doncaster stated on Radio Scotland last night that SPL 1&2 entry would be on grounds of meritocracy only. When pressed later by Jim Spence he agreed that would mean TRFC would not be in either league at this moment in time as they’re not in the top 24 teams.
@thereek: Do you know if I can get that on Catch Up service anywhere?
Or does anyone else know? Thanks.
goosygoosy says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 22:47
I believe the meeting is at the Hilton on the 4th to set up a creditors committee (unless its changed)
justshatered says:
Monday, November 19, 2012 at 22:00
(extract) The problem they have is that everything we were warned about over tthe summer has failed to materialise. The SPL is getting by, crowds are roughly the same, there is a tight league, and three or four teams fighting for top and second spot.
Have they never heard of the saying “IF IT’S NOT BROKE DON’T FIX IT.”
The SPL teams had better be prepared because if they thought they were facing a boycott last year then, judging by this proposition, they have not seen anything yet.
——————————————————————————————
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of JS, I foresee a problem stemming from lack of ammunition here.
In the summer we had the possibility of withholding ST monies and the threat that carried to the finances of any given club.
We don’t have that “stick to beat them with” at this time of year.
Any suggestions as to our “weapons of choice” for the upcoming battle?
“Ah’m no’ gawn tae yer bliddy gemme anyway”, won’t work. They already have our ST money.
The Daily Record has rightly been on the receiving end of much criticism lately but today’s paper is pretty good. It gives a platform to Alloa chairman Mike Mulraney and his opinion that this mad new plan is simply to fast track TRFC into their new set up. He has no expectation, as the 24th club as it currently stands, of receiving an invitation to join. A few choice quotes to save you buying the paper (it’s still a tawdry rag after all!) –
“If this is just another attempt to divide Scottish football I couldn’t be more disappointed”
“If it’s not decided on sporting merit then anyone who thinks Scottish football is a laughing stock now better brace themselves because they’ve seen nothing yet. Is that the fruit’s of a summer’s worth of thinking?”
“If this is just another solution to get Rangers (sic) back up quickly it would undermine the credibility of Scottish football to sponsors, investors and supporters. After the pressure fans put on their clubs to make Rangers (sic) start again from Division Three, do they honestly expect that idea to fly?”
Keevins also very scathing about the complex nature of the plan.
thebasharmilesteg says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 09:56
———————————————————————————————————————————-
I watched the 1983 ECWC final in a house full of all my school friends – early primary – dad’s and everything were in attendance and after we were all sent home – the dads continued to party into the early hours – a few kids at school were soon to be seen sporting Aberdeen jerseys afterwards – in a Glasgow school were Celtic were regarded simply as angels sent from the heavens.
We watched more than one Dundee United euro match in the school assemby hall – inc the 87 UEFA cup final – and again – it soon followed a few DUFC jerseys being worn by some – It really was a good time for Scottish football and the north-east in particular…even if DUFC lost that final, they were still fantastic at home though Frank McGarvey’s mental header and a Scottish Cup final against the legendary Hamish McAlpine is another very fond childhood memory…
Our school football team – instead of us adopting the usual Celtic players – we were all fighting to take the moniker of Paul Sturrock or Eric Black – though personally I chose Roy Aitken because I liked booting people up in the air:)
Where was the old Rangers during this time though?
Messr’s Holmes and Lawrence were busy figuring out ways of combating the north-east menace, the club required ££ as none was being made via the turnstiles – and hardly any wonder, I recently seen some bits of a match between the old Rangers and Aberdeen at Ibrox, Aberdeen won 3-0 but were duly kicked off the pitch in the process – and I mean kicked off the pitch!
Man, what a bunch of thugs that Rangers team were! Anyway, Souness is sourced by old David Holmes and soon the club and it’s cloggers is later acquired by Minty, with a loan from BOS and there is where the good times end for Scottish football – Given Gavin Masterton’s friendship with Murray via MIH and BOS role with many of the other sides – this stank to high heaven from the outset, the later actions of ‘the bunnet’ by immediately ending CFC’s ‘relationship’ with BOS when he took ownership of Celtic speaks volumes.
Minty hired PR agencies to manipulate the MSM. If you want stories – you do it my way and say only what we want you to say, otherwise be cast into the wind as the good-ship dignity sails into the EBT sunset – instead of looking at the continuing ersoion throughout the Scottish game – the MSM berated all else for not sharing Minty’s vision – or in other words – for not fiddling the tax-man to fund signing players you couldnt otherwise afford.
The reincarnation of that old club is now stalking the 3rd division – a footballing equivalent of faking a death to con the insurance has taken place – but the con is flawed – if Sevco find themselves in a higher league minus the merit then the drop in attendance throughout Scottish football will see the end of professional football in Scotland.
That is what we are fighting for – it isn’t a witchunt against Sevco and Charlie – the mans a fool and he’s really his own worst enemy – not the ‘haters’ – it’s not about hate, it’s about the huge scam that RFC and it’s directors played on us all – it’s about the scams STILL being attempted by the reincarnate and it’s about the sudden ‘Fit and proper’ status of a ‘shameless glib liar’ not too mention the wholly corrupt nature of the governing bodies in the whole fiasco.
The SFA and others (SPL) are utterly disagraceful and the lack of basic coherence and transparency is simply a convenient mask to avoid having to explain the unexplainable – to quote Jim Royle; Reconstruction my arse! It’s just another wheeze to facilitate the ‘thing’ that currently occupies Ibrox stadium.
We have came a fair way indeed – but the folk that caused so much increduility last summer are still there – they have only hidden themselves – Campbell Ogilvie? How can this person still be allowed to even walk into Hampden?? Never mind hold such position…they are still at it…old habits and that – a ‘fit and proper’ Dave King? Of course – now Mr King, Campbell will see to the paperwork…
Speaking of paperwork – will that shredding company be paying any visits to Hampden in the near future – or does Campbell do that stuff himself??
RTC at 10:48
This is not a normal case by any means.
People are frustrated because they think that this case ended in January and have maintained a daily ritual since then looking for the result.
———————————————————————————————————————–
Indeed we have RTC,indeed we have.
I am sure the daily checking by entering FTTT in google is less than healthy.No doubt we should think of an appropriate acronym to describe the irritation and frustration which goes with the daily checking syndrome.
I am trying to give it up,the daily checking
Acronymed out.
RR
Why would SFL clubs accept an `invite` to a SPL2?
monsieurbunny says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 12:13
torrejohnbhoy says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:41
—————————————————
Obviously it was self protection. Can you imagine what TRFC and their fans reaction would be like if key decisions were given against them by the usual 3rd division referees? By givnig them SPL level refs they nip that one in the bud (not the reaction maybe but they have covered their backs).
Of course, it’s wrong but understandable in a way. (Except if you have to do that for one club what does that say about that club?)
=====================================
If I recall correctly,the reason(excuse!)given was it would be better for television.4th officials holding up boards,etc.the refs would get it right(if not correct)etc.
RTC at 10:48
People are frustrated because they think that this case ended in January and have maintained a daily ritual since then looking for the result.
———————————————————————————————————————–
Never a truer word said RTC.The daily checking ritual is becoming tedious to say the least.Infact there should be a syndrome ascribed to this unhealthy activity.Frustration and irritation is now giving way to stoicism….and yet?
FTTT’d and generally acronymed out.
torrejohnbhoy
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:41
———–
I totally agree; there is a major issue with lack of “consistently displayed competence”. I am often impressed with Scots referees refereeing European games and can’t quite fathom how they then fail to apply the same rules on a weekly basis. It may well be (most likely?) because there is a higher-level of scrutiny and a more transparent process in place (seemingly fair) that allows the transgressed, as well as the transgressors, to question and remediate issues caused by refereeing decisions. It is not difficult to implement such processes, companies do it every day with respect to service-procurement and management but it does require clear accountabilities, as well as transparent/honest measurements.
On the question of why does a new club playing in the bottom tier have access to Grade-1 referees, whilst other clubs in that division do not, out with the games played versus new-club, then perhaps the logic of “too big to fail” is very much still at play. Better, improved, standards are only possible with training/education, practice, measurement and remediation (including sanctions: see Clattenburg. M) when errors are found.
As a post-script; is it just me or does no one find it extraordinary that despite D.Utd/Levein’s outrage and McCurry’s subsequent spectacular denouement, not a single question was asked of the SPL/SFA in the mainstream media about his performances in games involving a former top-flight club?
Apols for double post.thought first one lost in the ether
goosey goosey from ‘under cover agent Proper Gander’ 😉
http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/27173/notices/71
tommythehat: Superb as always. Let us all remember, this is not just about Sevco, this is about the heart of Scottish Football being poisoned from within. These people are strategically placed with individual roles. They have always been there, they are there now, until they are removed nothing changes. Their job is not to better Scottish football, it is to do whatever it takes to complete the tasks they are given. Their loyalty is not to Scottish football, it is to an individual Club. This seedy little network of corruption is what we need to be addressing urgently.
Intersting take on Armageddon
http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/how-scottish-footballs-armageddon-has-signalled-european-joy-for-celtic/
rangerstaxcase says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 10:48
—————————-
Thanks for that.
I have pointed out previously that since this was a private hearing then the redaction process would be an ideal opportunity for anyone who wanted to stall the material being released into the wild. In fact insisting on a ludicrous amount of redaction would pretty much make that a certainty. particularly as you say the panel have to agree the final version.
So we have all of the evidence heard. Then the individual panel members have to make their deliberations. They have to meet and agree a joint decision. Not only the decision itself, but all of the logic behind it. These are busy men and that could take months.
Thenwhen it is released, and most importantly because it was a private hearing, the appelant and respondent could ask for redaction. i am assuming on the same grounds as the hearing itself. My guess public order, personal safety, confidential material. This would not happen in a normal case, at least not to the same extent. Again this will have to be agreed by the panel members, when they have time.
Nothing has changed. The FTT ruling, or what is left of it, will be released when it is released. Today, tomorrow, next week, next month …
This evening Celtic are playing in Lisbon, the city they won the European cup in 1967. With the addition of 2 players from a team that hadn’t won a domestic trophy for 12 years when most teams were nearly all playing on the same level playing field. It wasn’t greater resources that made them win 9 in a row or the European cup in 1967, it was one man, Jock Stein. The same with Aberdeen in the early to mid 80′s who had great Scottish talent and without doubt one of the best Scottish side of all time 83 European Cup winners cup and the European super cup. That success would never have been achieved though if it wasn’t for one man, Alex Ferguson. The same as Dundee Utd who had another squad of fantastic talent who in my opinion and many others were cheated out of a place in the 1984 European Cup Final against Roma in the Semis, they also reached the UEFA Cup final in 87 as most on here already know. The wouldn’t have achieved that feat if it wasn’t for Jim McLean. I assume you’re not from the West of Scotland Arab, but surely you can’t be in denial that the Establishment club Rangers were given a helping hand. It’s common knowledge amongst football historians, good journalists and fans with open minds that referees were biased towards Rangers. It’s not a Timmy conspiracy theory, it’s fact.
verselijkfc
I would not ever wish to denigrate Jock Stein or his achievements, but his team did not succeed despite, Scottish football, it was in fact because of Scottish football, the Hibs, Rangers and Dundee teams who in the previous decade had reach the last 4 of the EC demonstrate the level and strength of Scottish football at this time…the same goes for Aberdeen and Dundee Utd.
Danish Pastry,
Whenever I venture to discuss the position of Celtic within our game, I challenge the ontological security of Celtic fans and am lashed with TDs! (Incidentally, I would recommend such a challenge to anyone’s ontological security, indeed it is a must, now and again, for reasons of intellectual hygiene.) I would be happy to discuss the issues you raise here but feel such a thread would be deemed way off topic.
Ordinary Fan
Interesting example of how power and influence function. If you look back to the period around the ref incident, when the now Baron Reid of Cardowan, everyone’s favorite former communist (with added republicanism) was chairman of Celtic. Reid held 9 cabinet posts including Home and Defence, and played a very dangerous and exploitative game with Celtic fans. (Trying to reinvigorate the Labour vote among a certain constituency) Remember those speeches and statements about how ‘we will no longer be treated as second class citizens’ etc. Such an individual, drenched in the establishment, mixed with the most powerful elites in the country and did so for a decade. He most certainly ‘bared his teeth’ over this issue and won! Quite a useful illustration of establishment power I would have thought. Would Steven Thompson or Vladimir Romanov have been able to steer events in this way?
arabest1: I don’t see it. Not every politician is part of the corrupt network that assists RFC and its Tribute Act. Maybe we just have differentiating ideas on what the Establishment is.
Assuming that the FTTT decision is damming in terms demonstrating that Rangers Football Club and those acting on its behalf knowingly and deliberately engaged in industrial scale cheating, then it would become more difficult to shoe-horn Sevco/TRFC into the top tier of a revised league set-up.
Perhaps some people are now attempting to take advantage of the window of opportunity, as the FTTT decision has yet to be published, as once delivered I would then imagine that that trick of moving Sevco/TRFC up the league structure would be more difficult to pull off.
Publication of the FTTT decision is key – the world will then know what happened, and the authorities can then begin to consider whether they can act on those sins (again, assuming that guilt is proven).
If industrial scale cheating is so proven and the authorities find that they cannot act – then Sevco/TRFC is a new Club, with no history or record of achievement beyond August 2012.
If the authorities find that Sevco/TRFC is a sporting continuation of Rangers Football Club Ltd, then Secvo/TRFC should be subject to an appropriate punishment for industrial scale cheating.
Scottish football has not died, the SPL is more exciting this year and currently is drawing larger attendances. I even managed to get my wife to go to an Aberdeen game! At this point in time I see no reason for the powers that be to rush on league re-construction.
Most of us here know that if league construction is rushed through to the (unjust) benefit of Sevco/TRFC and a FTTT decision provides evidence of cheating by and on behalf of RFC – with no attempt to address that wrong by the authorities – then Scottish football is dead.
Nothing much has changed since the summer. The FTTT decision has not been published, and the majority of Scottish football fans do hold the future of the game in their hands – as many of us will do walking away.
ordinaryfan
You are spot on. The simplest way to stop league re-corruption is to identify and get rid of the actual problem.
We were once given a moral dilemma to work out. It went something like the following:
A man is standing by a river and sees a drowning man being swept by. The man courageously dives in and saves the drowning man. Five minutes later, another drowning man goes past. He dives in again and saves that man. This continues until eventually the guy is becoming exhausted. He decides to walk upstream to see what is causing all these people to be drowning in the river. This means he must allow the people who are already in the river to drown.
He finds a man standing on a bridge who is grabbing people and throwing them in the water.
Our erstwhile hero grabs him and chucks HIM in the river. Problem solved. A bit utilitarian – and very tough for those who drowned – but it was a necessary action.
Ogilvie, Regan, Doncaster, Ballantyne and Longmuir need to be unceremoniously chucked off the bridge. Nothing else will suffice. Everything else, from Jack and the MSM to Mr King and his ‘fit and proper’ status, to refereeing and honest mistakes, to rule breaking and Charles Green’s hold over the Scottish football authorities, would then be well on the road to being sorted.
But who is going to chuck these people off the bridge?
twopanda says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 12:37
Why would SFL clubs accept an `invite` to a SPL2?
——————————————————————————-
Good question.
I know of one SFL club that so vehemently opposes the SPL.So much so that their CEO has promised that his club will never play there whilst he’s there. 😆
As I posted yesterday evening, Doncaster’s comments on Sportsound yesterday sounded pretty conclusive. Invitations to join an SPL2 will be on a basis of meritocracy. No club would receive special treatment. This suggests that those he speaks on behalf of, all 12 SPL Chairmen, have got it. They saw an uprising of fan anger over the summer and there is no way they would be daft enough to risk alienating the fans again.
I hope I’m right, but I’m not 100% sure. The next SPL meeting at which they are looking to have the details for these proposals is just under two weeks away, on the 3rd December. If it is possible that the SPL Chairmen still haven’t understood how strongly fans feel, should we write to our own clubs now to voice concerns that this restructuring should not be an excuse to fast track one club or do we wait until there is greater clarity? I’ve no wish to encourage a fresh deluge of correspondence but I absolutely don’t want to realise only with hindsight that I left it too late?
doontheslope: The only people capable of forcing change are the fans, pressurise our Clubs. Otherwise we are just chasing our tails.
I think discussions about Celtics establishment credentials aren’t for this blog or this particular time. I’m a Celtic fan, and whilst I agree that all mistakes are not honest, there’s bigger fish to fry at the minute. Unless we remove our collective fingers from our collective you know whats there may soon not be any refereeing decisions worth moaning about.
Hibees results:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20412294?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
whullie says:
Tuesday, November 20
“Ah’m no’ gawn tae yer bliddy gemme anyway”, won’t work. They already have our ST money.
======================================================
Not next year’s, they don’t. Or the year after. Or the year after that….
ordinaryfan says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 12:45
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Muchos Gratias indeed for the comments OF. You put in superbly yourself – as always. Since their inception – the SFA have did next to nothing for the actual benefit of any of it’s member clubs and the national side’s record – since the SFA’s inception – has been utterly deplorable – esp considering the calibre of players available throughout past times.
It’s a decrepit institution – it was even decrepit in the 50’s – and nowadays the closed-shop of wee blazer wearing ‘bowling club commitee’ type’s just looks daft – to us it’s infuriating, but to all else, it just looks petty and self-serving – they do have to be changed asap.
The situation with Campbell Ogilvie is more disturbing though.
The old-boys network is very much active and influential within Hampden – but the network of dissenters has snowballed and the traditional protection offered by the MSM has been reduced to Jack Irvine’s ever-increasingly desperate tales via the DR and such – and even they have it in for the SFA because they allowed the Sevco scam to be put to the vote – then there’s all the snide comments from Charlie – it must be tough when you do everything you can to facilitate a scam for a lying spiv, for him to later throw it all back in your face when the scam fails – esp through no fault of your own – those effing football fans – let that be the last time you take opinion from the public; proclaims various arses via the Daily Record – but it doesnt matter – the Scottish football community is articulating itself quickly and with support from all clubs fans and the tartan army supporters orgs, we can rid ourselves of a proven rotten and corrupt football governance.
Maybe it’s that recent ‘fit and proper’ thing re the shameless glib liar – or perhaps it’s that 5-way agreement talk – but one things for certain – it’s plain to see the SFA have learned nothing from the past 6 months.
Let’s see how brazen they are when the remaining Scotland WC qualifiers are played to an empty Hampden.
torrejohnbhoy says: at 13:28
twopanda says:at 12:37
Why would SFL clubs accept an `invite` to a SPL2?
Good question.
I know of one SFL club that so vehemently opposes the SPL. So much so that their CEO has promised that his club will never play there whilst he’s there.
Good – only 29 left then 😉
tomtomaswell says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:46
essexbeancounter says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:36
bill1903 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 08:11
David Beckham announces he’s going to leave LA Galaxy.
I expect Charlie to announce this morning that T’Rangers are seriously interested in him and of course he’d love to come
======================================================================
…and Mrs Beckham and the four kids.?..I can just see them playing happy families on the sunny sands of Govan…!
What a headline/photo opportunity for the MSM…I can see Jabba salivating already…and not a piece of lamb or mutton, even, in sight…!
————————————————-
There ai’nt much meat on that womans bones. You’d struggle to get a good pot of soup. 😀
______________________________________________
Can anybody see ‘Govan’ catching on as a baby’s name!
Arabest
Would Stephen Thompson or Vladimir Romanov have been able to steer things in this way?
—————————————————————-
Yes they would have – had they had Paul McBride QC as their lawyer.
darkmoon63 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:19
Hi Corsicacharity,
Thanks for a great post. Here is a good website for the information you require:
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/scotland/division-one-old/1973-1974/results/1973-09-22
If you click on results on the left hand side, you can check various dates on a calender for that season to see results. It is a good site to wander about in now and then.
*********
Thanks. It’s like another world.
Had a quick look…fascinating(!) and one set of results stood out immediately – 13/4/74:
Arbroath 3 – 2 Hibs
Dundee Utd 0 – 2 Celtic
Rangers 1 – 2 Dundee
4 weeks later the final top three was:
Celtic = 53 pts
Hibs = 49 pts
Rangers = 48 pts.
arabest1: I don’t see it. Not every politician is part of the corrupt network that assists RFC and its Tribute Act. Maybe we just have differentiating ideas on what the Establishment is.
————————————————————————————————————————-
My point exactly, some members of the establishment are busy helping clubs other than RFC and it tribute act! 😉
ordinaryfan says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 12:25
1 0
Rate This
@thereek: Do you know if I can get that on Catch Up service anywhere?
Or does anyone else know? Thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ordy – If you knew my techy knowledge you wouldn’t have asked that question. Sorry ! By the way I believe his remarks about a meritocracy were repeated in a couple of papers today. Having made such public comments he’s going to find it hard to back track if a shoehorn is attempted at some point.
Oh and my belated thanks to Hibs, Dundee and Rangers for winning the EC for my team in ’67 (if I’m following arabest correctly)
doontheslope says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 13:46
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Absolutely.
Oh and my belated thanks to Hibs, Dundee and Rangers for winning the EC for my team in ’67 (if I’m following arabest correctly)
I’m sure he can defend his own corner but I agree with him that if you look back there was a tidal wave of scottish football in that period the crest of which was represented by Celtic in Lisbon. In 1967 addition to Celtic’s triumph, now-defunct Rangers (un-financially doped) reached the final of the CWC, Scotland beat England at Wembly to re-gain the World Cup (Ha!) and, often forgotten, Kilmarnock reached the semis of the Fairs cup. We punched way above our weight in those days.
I had previously been concerned to read that Aberdeen FC had voted to retain the 11-1 arrangement. Now I’m wondering if the reason was to be sure that only two clubs would be required to block any decision to allow T’Rangers back into the SPL or expanded SPL.
Did AFC believe a stitch up was in progress?
As a Dons fan, I was hoping my team would be part of a new and revigorating force to improve the game, but it seems that keeping the old power structure as a bastion against corrupt behaviour might be necessary in the short term.
Of course, I could be wrong.
Another scenario I considered is that both the SFL and SPL are proposing new arrangements that are both unworkable purely as a delaying tactic, giving some hope to the bears whilst waiting to see if they crash and burn before any proposal is thrashed out and voted on.
A cunning plan.
corsicacharity says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 09:24
Looks like a non starter until such time as teams have reduced their cost base and can take the risk of trying it out for a season.
thebasharmilesteg says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 14:10
Did Dunfermline not reach the semi of the Fairs Cup around the same time? I know that DUFC spanked the holders……..a certain Catalan team in their first ever European fixture! (Home and away) No lesser an authority than Bob Crampsey describes the Dundee side of the early 60’s as the greatest football team Scotland ever produced, it was against such teams that Stein cut his managerial teeth. Celtic nor Stein existed in a bubble of spendid fantasticness, they were products of Scottish football, and their acheivements were historic and momentous for us all.
I remember United being knocked out of the EC at the semi final stage and the same night Aberdeen being knocked out the CWC the same night……..perhaps it was in the flush of my youth I was 18, but the gravity of that night did not sink in till years later, to think of it now…….truely astonishing days.
arabest1 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 14:29
thebasharmilesteg says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 14:10
Did Dunfermline not reach the semi of the Fairs Cup around the same time?
Quarter finals – and Stein was manager at the time.
They were a formidable force through out the 60s, The big stand at East End Park is a testament to their glory days.
http://scottishfans.org/News/ScottishConference12.aspx
thebasharmilesteg says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 14:10
2 1 i
Rate This
Oh and my belated thanks to Hibs, Dundee and Rangers for winning the EC for my team in ’67 (if I’m following arabest correctly)
I’m sure he can defend his own corner but I agree with him that if you look back there was a tidal wave of scottish football in that period the crest of which was represented by Celtic in Lisbon. In 1967 addition to Celtic’s triumph, now-defunct Rangers (un-financially doped) reached the final of the CWC, Scotland beat England at Wembly to re-gain the World Cup (Ha!) and, often forgotten, Kilmarnock reached the semis of the Fairs cup. We punched way above our weight in those days.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not disputing Scottish football had greater strength and quality then but I think ordinaryfan’s point, which I agree with, was that 3 particularly talented managers were key to their clubs successes. You rightly speak of Killie so you could even mention the name of Willie Waddell who as well as managing Killie then also later led Rangers to their euro win in ’72. Think also of a sparkling euro run by Dunfermline – managed by Stein.
So yes our football was better but these individual managers made the difference. You quoted the national team but the truth about that proves the point. Possibly the most talented group of Scottish players post war but never had real on-field success. Team included Law, Baxter, St John, MacKay, Crerand & McNeill. They had the talent but they didn’t have a manager.
Thereek: Thanks, I’ll have a look. Just to say also, I don’t believe for one second that Doncaster will even bat an eyelid WHEN he goes back on his word. It will be a case of getting everyone on board and the details will be held back until the very last moment, then it will be a case of Tribute Act being given a lift up the League system. Supporters reactions will not matter once these crooks set the wheels of reconstruction corruption in motion.
Whoops!!! – should have scrolled down the Wiki page – yup semis of CWC in 68-69 under George Farm.
Just caught more recent posts on this debate. Dundee were mentioned so I must add Brown & Hamilton when talking about the national team’s failure. Two excellent players. Brown had euro success once he moved to Spurs.
Back on the subject of monitoring Scottish football.
I wish Celtic all the best for tonight. I have a feeling the match will be “monitored” by a lot of top European clubs that they may face if they get through to the last 16.
If I was a Scotsman I would be very proud that a team is performing so well at the top level.
As an Irishman, I am very very proud of Mr Lennon.
The match will be on in my local tonight and I will be playing every pass along with the team.
As for the nonsense going on with the sevco ipo: Tonight I will couldn’t care less. The Bears will throw good money after bad, Chuckles will exit stage right and we will all be here knowing we told them so many, many times.
To the non Celtic fans, please watch and enjoy the match tonight, win, lose or draw.
abcott says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 13:35
whullie says:
Tuesday, November 20
“Ah’m no’ gawn tae yer bliddy gemme anyway”, won’t work. They already have our ST money.
======================================================
Not next year’s, they don’t. Or the year after. Or the year after that….
_____________________________________________________
By which time the deed will be done. The clubs/SFA/SPL/SFL* (* delete as necessary) may want to take the gamble and we will be left with the sour taste of corruption in our mouths.
“Ah’m no’ buyin’ yer bliddy ST nixt year eera”, may be just as toothless.
prohibby says:
tomtomaswell says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:46
essexbeancounter says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 11:36
bill1903 says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 08:11
David Beckham announces he’s going to leave LA Galaxy.
I expect Charlie to announce this morning that T’Rangers are seriously interested in him and of course he’d love to come
======================================================================
…and Mrs Beckham and the four kids.?..I can just see them playing happy families on the sunny sands of Govan…!
What a headline/photo opportunity for the MSM…I can see Jabba salivating already…and not a piece of lamb or mutton, even, in sight…!
————————————————-
There ai’nt much meat on that womans bones. You’d struggle to get a good pot of soup.
===============================================================
Hence my reference to “mutton”…no longer dressed as lamb in this case…!
For the avoidance of doubt. My point is simply this. The decisions in the summer were made, full in the knowledge that ST monies were about to be deducted from fans accounts, and DD’s were being set up to allow this. We (the fans) were arguing from a position of strength.
We are not in that position in mid winter.
Radio Scotland news just said the FTTT result is expected ‘shortly’. Nothing the bbc website as far as I can see, though.
doontheslope says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 13:24
35 0 Rate This
ordinaryfan
You are spot on. The simplest way to stop league re-corruption is to identify and get rid of the actual problem.
We were once given a moral dilemma to work out. It went something like the following:
A man is standing by a river and sees a drowning man being swept by. The man courageously dives in and saves the drowning man. Five minutes later, another drowning man goes past. He dives in again and saves that man. This continues until eventually the guy is becoming exhausted. He decides to walk upstream to see what is causing all these people to be drowning in the river. This means he must allow the people who are already in the river to drown.
He finds a man standing on a bridge who is grabbing people and throwing them in the water.
Our erstwhile hero grabs him and chucks HIM in the river. Problem solved. A bit utilitarian – and very tough for those who drowned – but it was a necessary action.
Ogilvie, Regan, Doncaster, Ballantyne and Longmuir need to be unceremoniously chucked off the bridge. Nothing else will suffice. Everything else, from Jack and the MSM to Mr King and his ‘fit and proper’ status, to refereeing and honest mistakes, to rule breaking and Charles Green’s hold over the Scottish football authorities, would then be well on the road to being sorted.
But who is going to chuck these people off the bridge?
———————————————————————————————————————-
Maybe a combined effort to push them in consisting of:-
Mr Turnbull Hutton
Mr Sporting Integrity
An honest MSM without fear or favour.
The ghost of Armaggedon
Most important of all US the fans
.
I’m a bit mystified by all this Beckham to Ibrox chatter. Don’t you know that Hoop Doggy Dog has already promised to get him into a Celtic shirt? Personally I’d hold out for hover pitches….or, better yet, Beyonce!
It’s In!!!
http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf
Livia Burlando says:
Tuesday, November 20, 2012 at 15:21
Radio Scotland news just said the FTTT result is expected ‘shortly’. Nothing the bbc website as far as I can see, though.
——————————————
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there now?
Awwwwwwwwwww
Go read http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6850/TC02372.pdf
Coffee, Cigars, Whiskey all round !!!