A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
Agrajag says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 11:59
I tried to point out earlier that the SFA have deliberately fudged the issue so far. Some of their actions appear to reinforce the belief it is a new club.
Always best to leave yourself a get-out clause until the dust settles, after all.
It might also be a way of trying to keep Charles Green in check.
If the SFA are indeed intent on representing Rangers as a new club, as you contend, then why break the rules to “transfer” the registration and simply not break the rules in a different way by issuing a new licence/registration/membership to the club?
In my opinion, there is a deliberate plan to ensure Rangers is still seen as Rangers at the end of the process.
It is mixed messages at the moment but in my opinion there is no way the SFA have persuaded Charles Green to pay historic football debts of the old Rangers without the recipricol guarentee that they will recognise the historical continuation of the club in their history books.
There has been no official SFA statment regarding whether new Rangers are a historical continuation of old Rangers.
I maintain they will eventually officially recognise the new club as the same as the old club.
I beleive it is only really a question of timing.
Recognising the historical linneage of the club is also perhaps the last leverage the SFA have over Charles Green.
However, no matter what Green does, I don’t believe the SFA would be willing to break the deal and offically state Rangers are a new club.
The SFA know Charles Green could unleash the wrath of the hordes against the governing body if they attempted to further “punish” Rangers in this way.
We shall see in the fullness of time who is correct but I am convinced the SFA record books will show Rangers is still Rangers by the time the dust settles.
raycharlez says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 12:56
However, no matter what Green does, I don’t believe the SFA would be willing to break the deal and offically state Rangers are a new club.
——
They don’t need to. The whole “early rounds of cups” thing confirms it beyond doubt, really.
Personally, I think the “new club” thing will be confirmed, probably in roundabout fashion, by the relevant authorities eventually.
It will not happen until at least after this season, though. Too many bears with sore heads, and the authorities are obviously feart of them. Which is shocking, really.
The whole getting liquidated thing proves it is a new club.
Members Club became Ltd Company became PLC, got liquidated.
No propaganda about a “holding company” changes that.
New Rangers and Old Rangers existed at the same time, they were different entities. Old Rangers is dead, New Rangers continues … for now.
STV News @STVNews
Hearts are currently contesting a First Tier Tax Tribunal against HMRC over a separate £1.75m bill http://bit.ly/VSPA0n
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1m STV News STV News @STVNews
It is understood the latest HMRC winding up order against Hearts relates to unpaid PAYE and National Insurance http://bit.ly/VSPA0n
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2m STV News STV News @STVNews
HMRC lodged the order to appoint liquidators at Hearts with the Court of Session this month http://bit.ly/VSPA0n
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2m STV News STV News @STVNews
Hearts face winding up order from HMRC over unpaid tax bill http://bit.ly/VSPA0n
Beware the link ,if you are at work mute your sound, STV site automatically opens with a video!
angus1983 says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 13:15
I disagree. The “early cup” issue has not even been noticed by the wider public and can easily be brushed aside later as a decision made in order to maintain the integrity of the cup as you can’t be having Third Division sides being seeded as this would throw the whole process out of kilter.
I don’t know where you get the confidence from that the SFA are intent on recognising new Rangers as a different historical entity to old Rangers.
I believe your confidence is misplaced but as I said earlier we shall see in the fullness of time the true colours of the SFA with regard to this issue.
Agrajag says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 11:31
midcalderan says:
Tuesday, November 6, 2012 at 23:28
Aye right a footballer and his agent would agree to that.
—————————————————–
And that’s exactly why they couldn’t implement the scheme as purchased and why the whole sham came tumbling down. Agreements had to be formalised, documents created and signed. Those documents were discovered and the game was up.
Regarding the contrived confusion over Old/New club. One way of flushing out the truth is for one of the substantial creditors of Oldco to seek settlement of the Oldco debt from Newco – I’m pretty sure said creditor will be told where to go pronto..
midcalderan says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 13:35
Indeed.
It’s also why they couldn’t tell the footballing authorities about them, as they have to declare contractual payments. But that would mean they weren’t appropriate to EBTs.
So once they went down the route of using EBTs inappropriately they were forced down the route of lying to the footballing authorities as well. With the direct result of fielding ineligible players.
Quite a catch 22.
Raychartez 13.29
‘I believe your confidence is misplaced but as I said earlier we shall see in the fullness of time the true colours of the SFA with regard to this issue’
____________________________________________________________________________
“The fullness.of time” has expired many moons ago. The colours are shamefacedly blue.
Vlad, IMO, will expose the SFA for what they really are, a bunch of spineless kotowers.
Observe how they handle the Hearts situation. Watch for the twofacedness (copy – write?) and the obfuscation
OK, lets pretend they are the same club (i know, stop it, but lets pretend)
the Scottish Cup rules don’t really work too well.
Taken from SFA handbook – Clubs Exempt from Playing in Round One, Round Two and Round Three of the Competition
Round Two
The clubs which, in the current season, are members of The Scottish Premier League
and those which participate in The Scottish Football League First and Second division
Championships, shall be exempt from playing in Round Two of the Competition.
(these means Sevco have to play in round 2 as an SFL3 member)
Round Three
The clubs which, in the previous season, were members of The Scottish Premier League
and those clubs finishing in The Scottish Football League First division league positions
one to four, shall be exempt from playing in Round Three of the Competition.
(this means Sevco get a bye to round 4 as they WERE in the SPL)
So, if Sevco are the same club, the rules above don’t work. However, i didn’t hear Chuckles objecting to being in the draw for the 2nd or 3rd round – as you would think he would if he was certain it was the same club and they were being entered at the wrong place.
Given that the SFA applied the above rules without worry, then it is pretty clear they don’t regard Sevco as the same club. As if they did, they would have had to play them in the 2nd round but give them a bye in the third – and they didn’t, and the didn’t change the rules either to accommodate the situation.
Might be worth an email to the SFA, Sevco, the MSM and see what they all say on the matter
Graham Spiers @GrahamSpiers
Although I do need to correct the factually-loose Cosgrove in one aspect: the lamb in jersey that night was not succulent but fairly grisly.
6m Henry Clarson @HenryClarson
@GrahamSpiers You weren’t there, were you? Surely you’re not taking Jim Traynor’s word for it?
4m Baxy baxendale @wiredz
@GrahamSpiers oh so u had the lamb?a few months ago on off the ball u said u couldn’t remember what u had,Stuart tore you a new one that day
Talking about the Scotland job today and I was reminded of this from Bertie Vogts Biography, he talks about Tommy Burns:
‘I think maybe if he was the assistant manager of Rangers, then maybe he could have taken over. If Tommy came from the blue side then I think he’d have taken over after me. Sorry but I have to say that.”
http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/198880…paid-tax-bill/
Heart of Midlothian FC faces a winding up order from HM Revenue and Customs over an unpaid tax bill.
The tax authority presented a petition to the Court of Session in Edinburgh to place the SPL club owned by Vladimir Romanov into liquidation earlier this month.
It is understood that the Tynecastle club is facing the action from HMRC over unpaid PAYE and National Insurance dating back several months, which is separate from their ongoing troubles with the tax authority.
The latest dispute with the tax authority comes as Hearts are challenging a £1.75m bill at the First Tier Tax Tribunal relating to players loaned to the club by Lithuanian club FBK Kaunas, which is also owned by Mr Romanov.
HMRC presented the petition to the court on November 1 and Hearts have eight days to respond starting from this Tuesday, when the notice of the winding up order was published in the Edinburgh Gazette.
Hearts recently launched a fans’ share issue for a 10% stake in the club, which the board denies would be used to raise around £1.79m in order to pay off its tax debt.
In January, HMRC lodged a separate winding up order against Hearts with the Court of Session, which resulted in the club paying off another tax bill.
The tax authority also took similar actions in November and December last year, which Hearts staved off through payment of two bills worth around £500,000 each.
Last month the Scottish Premier League imposed a player signing embargo on the Edinburgh club over repeated late payments to players. The club had failed to pay some players and coaching staff on time in both October and September, which the the league’s disciplinary subcommittee found to be in breach of its rules.
In the Hearts’ last audited accounts, it was noted that the club’s debts had fallen from £36.1m in 2010 to £24m by last June. This was because around £10m of the money owed to UBIG was exchanged for shares in the club, while £8.8m owed to Panama-registered Natborg Projects Corp was forgiven as they were a “related party” to Hearts.
Auditors Johnston Carmichael LLP noted that the club made a £511,000 profit between August 2010 and June last year, but Hearts “has incurred significant operating losses in recent years and trading activities result in significant ongoing increases in debt.”
The accounts released in April noted that the debt owed to UBIG was at 4.5% interest and that the bank continues to provide “short term loans and funding to allow the company to meet its day-to-day funding requirements.” Johnstone Carmichael said in the report that the directors of Hearts, including Mr Romanov’s son Roman, had “received written confirmation from the directors of UAB UGIB that it will provide sufficient funding to enable the company to meet its liabilities as they fall due for the foreseeable future.”
However, the auditors felt that there had been “limited” evidence provided to them about whether the bank is “able to meet its commitment to provide sufficient funding to enable to company [Hearts] to meet its liabilities”.
In 2010 both the Edinburgh side and Rangers were named in the ‘football secrecy league’, which was published by international development agency Christian Aid.
Sorry to bore you chaps with stuff from follow follow, but sometimes I feel it is verging on the genius. It is also an interesting window on a [articyular mindset.
For example here are a couple of thoughts on the current Hearts situation, and in particular the news of another winding up order obtained by HMRC
===============================
Originally Posted
They will be given a transfer ban to next week from the transparent sfa.
Not if the club goes into liquidation they wont. They then just follow Gretna and dissapear off the football planet completely.
Unless, like the Rangers, they can find a buyer.
But Rangers have proved how difficuilt it can be to persuade bidders to part with millions that go straight to the creditors rather than the club.
It was our huge potential for future growth as a going concern that saved us.
===============================
Originally Posted
SFL? East of Scotland league more like. I believe Spartans are first in line for the next space in the SFL.
The problem they have is that a newco style reorganisation of their operations is not likely to provide a better deal for the creditors than selling off the main asset (i.e. Tynecastle) for flats.
================================
Wow, just wow!
ordinaryfan says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 14:12
==========================
Hadnt heard that before! As the song goes, thats why we’re paranoid!
Could CG not raise this £800k from the amounts, nominal or otherwise, received for Steven Davis, Rhys McCabe and Maurice Edu? Assuming of course that it hasn’t all been swallowed up already on the day to day running. Did they receive anything for anyone else – Ness, Aluko?
So what’s new?
Hearts face another winding up order.
I’m told that the Hearts FTT starts tomorrow.
Follow Follow claim “Hearts are in desperate trouble. We’re less than 6mths into year 1 of the brave new world. Utopia will remain unfound.”
Oh I almost forgot …….. FAO Follow Follow
New documents posted today at Companies House for RFC PLC (RFC 2012)
Liq Doc 4.2(SC) NOTICE OF WINDING UP ORDER
Liq Doc CO4.2S COURT ORDER NOTICE OF WINDING UP
Brave new world indeed!
Hearts are doing it all wrong! Why are they not racking up more debt and getting better quality players with a “buy now pay later” option. Drag it out through the courts for a couple of years while they challenge for the SPL. That way they convince the SPL and SFA that they are integral to Scottish Football and then instead of the Club dying they just start again in Div 3 and laugh at those they owe money to.
Hearts situation will be interesting.
the bulk of their debt lies with Romanov, if he is prepared to take a haircut on that debt, he can pretty much put the cva through with a nod and the debt is gone and the club saved.
That would make sense to then try and sell the debt free club/float it to fans then
one hell of a haircut though – wonder if he will spirit the stadium off in a sale and lease back type agreement and get SOME kinda return that way
what I am looking forward to is watching the orcs make direct comparisons for a completely different situation
raycharlez says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 13:29
angus1983 says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 13:15
I disagree. The “early cup” issue has not even been noticed by the wider public and can easily be brushed aside later as a decision made in order to maintain the integrity of the cup as you can’t be having Third Division sides being seeded as this would throw the whole process out of kilter.
——
It doesn’t have to be noticed by the wider public.
As explained by NTHM above, the facts are there. Did none of the public wonder why TRFC were in the early rounds of the Cup? Clue: Not just because they’re in Div 3. Second round, yes, but the Rules specifically say that if they = Oldco then they would not be in the draw for Round Three because they were an SPL club last season.
I would speculate that Mr Charles may have done some lobbying to get a bye in the 3rd Round – if he bothered to check the Rules. However, SFA rules on what constitutes a “club” are far less hazy than the SPL ones, so he’d’ve been oot on his lug on that score.
(…I also suspect that the SFA could fudge the issue by saying that because TRFC played in the second round it would be silly to exclude them from the Third, and the issue has no bearing on whether they’re a new club. After all, it’s only the Rules, and what do they count for?)
Thinking about the forgotten men of TRFC, namely Bocanegra and Goian. Both sent out on loan to Racing Santander and Spezia Calcio respectively. Presumably these deals were the result of the stitch up between the SFA/SPL to get TRFC, at worst, into SFL1. Fans power scuppered that one.
So what is the future for these loan-outs? The mutterings about league reconstruction still grumble in the background. If there is such a plan that will be suddenly revealed, with TRFC miraculously re-instated back to the top table, then both of them will no doubt return as heroes to the faithful, being the “spine” of the re-incarnation.
If no reconstruction, what then? Two half decent, but elderly, centre backs presumably on high wages. Will Charlie want them back for SFL2 (assuming promotion)? More likely he’ll see what he can get for them in January window.
Whatever happens will give a few pointers as to what Charlie is thinking.
Romanov is going to take a hit no matter what he does. There is no way he can sell the club at the moment so better to get this monkey off his back. However if he does decide to put the club under then he can expect/demand the same treatment as RFC ie re-start again in Div 3. Take a couple of years to get back up but at least he’s got a club with no debt to sell at that point. Gets HMRC off his back. Totally immoral but precedents have already been set.
RayCharlez or dear friend CG has already came out with 1 of his eloquent conversations (rant) about his team being put into the earlier rounds of the cup and NOT 1 of the top 16
poor wee chuckles was virtually told in no uncertain terms They are Not Glasgow rangers and never Will be 😉
tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:07
0 0 Rate This
Romanov is going to take a hit no matter what he does. There is no way he can sell the club at the moment so better to get this monkey off his back. However if he does decide to put the club under then he can expect/demand the same treatment as RFC ie re-start again in Div 3. Take a couple of years to get back up but at least he’s got a club with no debt to sell at that point. Gets HMRC off his back. Totally immoral but precedents have already been set.
——————————-
tomtomaswell,
Romanov owns > 75% of the debt. He can approve a CVA with the creditors on his own. No need to liquidate the company, no need for newco, no expulsion from the SPL.
very different situation
Of course, there is the fact that what he is done is compeltely immoral and lacking in sporting integrity – what is teh going rate for that from the SPL/SFA?
Well, 10 points for going into admin, and uhm…….well, a wee fine which it seems won’t be paid.
Not saying it’s right, but that looks like being the extent of his troubles
Post CVA, Vlad will find offloading the club much easier as it isn’t saddled with the huge debts to his bank – vlad will need to conduct a sale/floatation in such a way as to give him some return to minimise his losses
tcup2012 says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:08
0 0 Rate This
RayCharlez or dear friend CG has already came out with 1 of his eloquent conversations (rant) about his team being put into the earlier rounds of the cup and NOT 1 of the top 16
poor wee chuckles was virtually told in no uncertain terms They are Not Glasgow rangers and never Will be
————————–
could i have a link to that please?
The latest Hearts statement doesn’t make good reading
So Hearts claim this is a new and recent bill. That suggests they must have been unaware that they haven’t been paying PAYE and NIC of almost half a million.
Whoever wrote that is in line to be head-hunted by Media House.
Romanov may have 75% of the debt, so he will ose that if Hearts go into liquidation surely. It does not benefit them at all unlike Rangers, because he is losing the money owed to him.
I laugh when this article stated that Hearts had been duly punished, hardly a punishment when they cant sign players because:
a) They have no money
b) We are out of the transfer window
Thats like saying to someone you they are banned from driving when they dont have a licence.
I wonder what will happen to them re the failure to pay tax and NI. The SPL brought in new rules last season, but from all accounts from what I read they will receive no further punishment because they are already under a transfer embargo.
That is like saying someone in prison for murder received no more of a sentence if they kill again in prison.
Regarding the Ranger’s status it seems to me that the governing bodies have achieved exactly what they set out to do.
By systematically polluting the water’s re rules and regulations, they have scored a goal in their own eyes. We will never get a straight “yes or no “answer from the powers that be, on if it’s an old or new club.(should anyone ever get the chance to ask that is)
As far as I can see they are content with the present situation – The ranger’s fan’s believe that it is the same club; (everyone else knows that it is not.)
Everybody’s happy – or that’s how I think they see it. I can picture them all patting each other on the back on a job well done.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:12
——————————————————–
It’s a no-brainer then. Take the 10 point hit and still remain in the SPL. I would however expect the same amount of opprobrium to be shown towards them as has been directed elsewhere. We wouldn’t want to be accused of favouritism, would we? 😀
saskya1888 says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:26
As far as I can see they are content with the present situation – The ranger’s fan’s believe that it is the same club; (everyone else knows that it is not.)
Everybody’s happy – or that’s how I think they see it. I can picture them all patting each other on the back on a job well done.
=============================================
actually, you could be right!
I often have the debate about TV replays/evidence and referee’s getting decisions wrong.
If Ref’s got everything right, then we would have no upsets – ok, very few. but can you imagine a system where every refereeing decision was correct? There would be no “ah, but what if…..” or “that feckin ref cost us the game….” type debates/banter between fans
I’ve often felt that what made football so attractive to so many people was that you could get humped 3-0 but play better and walk away the moral victor because a ref awarded a throw in the wrong way in the 80th minute that changed the game!! (ok extreme example, but you know what i mean)
If the SFA simply say “Rangers – new club, no history” or “Rangers – Old Club, all the history” they eliminate a huge area of debate, and some would say, interest in the game
just a theory i’m working on, but I reckon football thrives under officials being fecking useless and journalists writing nonsense that just annoys the majority of fans
tomtomaswell says: Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:28
============================
The penalty for going into Admin is now the greater of 15 points, or one third of the clubs total points the previous season. In Hearts case that would be 18 points.
That would currently put Hearts on -5 points, 12 behind Dundee, not an insurmountable deficit, but with the likely loss of further players, relegation would certainly be a strong possibility.
tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:28
3 0 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:12
——————————————————–
It’s a no-brainer then. Take the 10 point hit and still remain in the SPL. I would however expect the same amount of opprobrium to be shown towards them as has been directed elsewhere. We wouldn’t want to be accused of favouritism, would we?
——————————————————————-
given that i hate the jambos more than RFC, i’ll be happy to call them all the shower of cheatin bassa’s under the sun!!!
just for consistency of course!!! :D:D:D
(exception to the fine upstanding Jambos on here, who have softened my dislike for your club considerably)
easyJambo says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:19
I’m afraid the spokesman is being disingenuous at best.
HMRC are unlikely to agree time to pay, when the unpaid tax is PAYE, there is another amount at Tribunal, and they have obtained a winding up order.
For the more forensically minded and computer literate. Is there a link between Las Vegas Sands, the company who held talks with Murray over the Casino and Imran Ahmed????
Agrajag says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:44
I’m afraid the spokesman is being disingenuous at best.
HMRC are unlikely to agree time to pay, when the unpaid tax is PAYE, there is another amount at Tribunal, and they have obtained a winding up order.
————————————————————-
maybe they are going to cite the winding up of RFC, who owed them a lot of money, as the reason they are having difficulties paying – unforseen circumstances leading to shortfall in cash etc
🙂
I will be have a search for it m8
it was before the first round draw 🙂
He was putting across the sanctions placed on TRFC (please don’t laugh he was deadly serious) and was questioning why they were placed in the first round and not exempt like the rest of the top 16 teams 🙂
Zero debt and worst case scenario Div1 would have to be a gamble worth taking (from Hearts point of view, Romanov will have a different take on it) especially as Dundee are unlikely to climb spectacularly, unless they go nuts in January which I can’t see happening. To get back to the OP though a relegation scramble wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for viewing figures and general interest. Minimum disruption to the rest of the leagues.
Sale and leaseback from Romanov and its game on I reckon. Unless someone wants to buy his £45m stake right enough.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:47
================================
Discussions like that would normally be before HMRC petition the Court for a winding up order, not after it.
In addition the person has to show how they will continue to pay their ongoing tax bills, whilst servicing the time to pay arrangement. They also have to have a good history, Hearts have had 4 winding up orders in less than a year and are currently appealing another assessment.
I just don’t see time to pay as an option. They will have to come up with the money.
Anyone more capable than myself able to have a look at Las Vegas Sands and D&P, Imran Ahmed etc pls.
Agrajag says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:58
================================
I just don’t see time to pay as an option. They will have to come up with the money.
================================
or follow another (well worn and debated) route!
agree with your other points entirely.
Lateral Thinking Alert! Lateral Thinking Alert! Lateral Thinking Alert! Lat…
A consortium of shrewd Rangers supporters, currently out in the cold as far as the Green regime is concerned, buys out Hearts rather than invest in the Sevco share issue. Hearts plod on in the SPL, awaiting the inevitable implosion at Sevco HQ. Hearts 2012 then merges with (or devours) Sevco and moves to Ibrox in time for SPL football in 2013-14, having sold Tynecastle to Asda for £25m.
Too silly?
HMRC’s recent experience of Hearts is that they will pay up eventually, hence the winding up order, rather than an administration order.
I don’t know how Hearts will approach this bill if there is no leeway on time to pay. Will Vlad come up with the readies? Ultimately it will be his choice………. but not a great situation for the club.
I posted the following on another board:
In the last set of accounts the Directors and Auditors reported that they were content to allow the club to proceed on a “going concern” basis with the continuing support of UBIG. Vlad appears to have renaged on that deal. I have no problem with him insisting that Hearts operate on a break even basis, even if it means swinging cuts to costs (including players). Hovever, the cuts have to be made over a period in which all contractual obligations are met and that includes payments to players and tax authorities. Vlad has failed to meet those obligations and that more than anything is why we find ourselves in the deep poo that we are
http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20121107/the-future-of-heart-of-midlothian_2241384_2973347
extract …
Without the support of fans there is, as we issue this note, a real risk that Heart of Midlothian Football Club could possibly play its last game next Saturday, 17 November against St Mirren.
This isn’t a bluff, this isn’t scaremongering, this is reality.
………….. and it gets worse. From the official website:
Any link between Las Vegas Sands and Bill Ng!??
tomtomaswell says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 15:07
10
0
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Romanov is going to take a hit no matter what he does. There is no way he can sell the club at the moment so better to get this monkey off his back. However if he does decide to put the club under then he can expect/demand the same treatment as RFC ie re-start again in Div 3. Take a couple of years to get back up but at least he’s got a club with no debt to sell at that point. Gets HMRC off his back. Totally immoral but precedents have already been set.
=========================================================
would it not mean that MadVlad would have to relinquish his position, i mean, would he be therfore considered to be – not a fit and proper – to hold a directorship?
==========================================================
also, did hertz ever get the lee wallace money?
Henry Clarson says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 16:05
Lateral Thinking Alert! Lateral Thinking Alert! Lateral Thinking Alert! Lat…
A consortium of shrewd Rangers supporters, currently out in the cold as far as the Green regime is concerned, buys out Hearts rather than invest in the Sevco share issue. Hearts plod on in the SPL, awaiting the inevitable implosion at Sevco HQ. Hearts 2012 then merges with (or devours) Sevco and moves to Ibrox in time for SPL football in 2013-14, having sold Tynecastle to Asda for £25m.
Too silly?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
mmmm …not at all H,could definately work..
Proposed new club mames…
Heart of Sevconian
Gorgie Zombies
🙂
*names
So, just a week after Glasgow Rangers FC were liquidated bringing to an end 140 years of history, another historic Scottish club faces extinction. Surely this time the footballing authorities will do everything possible to save the club and ensure they continue as a going concern. And of course the First Minister is a Hearts fan. Could he not call HMRC and see if there is anything they can do to give Hearts a bit more time to pay their way?
enoughx2 says:
Tuesday, November 6, 2012 at 23:52
the origin of the 31 dec rumour — methinks the natives are gettin restless …..
==============================================================
Could the significance of 31st December be that for the first time in many, many years – ‘Only An Excuse’ on BBC will be funny ?
Funny that is for all those who do NOT support one particular, new club ? 🙄
Jonathan Watson has a huge amount of topical material – and characters – to satirise from down Govan way…
First Rangers then Hearts.
Hard to believe what’s happened to these two clubs considering they were both ran by the worlds best football administrator!
Do you think he’ll step back from any disciplinary meetings wrt Hearts.Conflict of interest and all that!.
Looks to me (an amateur using Google), like Las Vegas Sands company, has links to a few of the players involved. I have no idea how to look into this properly, anyone able to help? Even to tell me I’m spouting a load of Craig Whyte!
youtawknaboot says:
Heart of Sevconian
——————————–
🙂
RBS, Murray and Bill Ng are all connected to Las Vegas Sands. And that’s a Google search.
If Hearts go bust will genteel Edinburgh be subject to extremely civil unrest?
StevieBC says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 16:22
Jonathan Watson has a huge amount of topical material – and characters – to satirise from down Govan way…
—————————————-
Tom Lehrer has been quoted as saying that political satire became obsolete when Henry Kissinger was awarded the Nobel Prize
I suspect that Jonathan Watson may also have to retire, we’re a very long way beyond parody with the Rangers / SFA situation
Raycharlez
sorry m8 at work but had a wee look couldn’t find original Rant but here’s a link alluding to said constructive statement 😉
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/rangers-fc-are-ineligible-to-play-in-the-scottish-cup-but-sfa-has-included-them-anyway/
Alluding lol bloody predictive text Pre dating lol
ordinaryfan says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 16:32
RBS, Murray and Bill Ng are all connected to Las Vegas Sands…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also…Mo Greene,Hyman Roth,Johnny Olah..every one of them accomplished HOODS !!
,or am I in the wrong era ..?
…. Mo Greene=Chuck Green…mmmm maybe not 🙂
For your entertainment Ladies and Gentlemen but totally off topic. I apologise and await the traditional TD’s
http://oddfootball.com/forum/thread-1397.html
Anyone got anywhere with the Las Vegas Sands connection?
The Hearts situation will get Wee Eck out of his FOI situation when he spoke to HMRC about Rangers FC and then wouldn’t say what he had asked them to do.
He’ll no doubt now offer to speak to HMRC for Hearts and therefore will add Football Club Financial Troubleshooter to his already long list of TV and photo opportunities.
You searched for ‘las vegas sands, W1, inc. dissolved, UK’. Displaying results 1 to 3 of 3 First Previous Next Last
Show 10 20 50 100 results per page
LAS VEGAS SANDS (IBROX) LIMITED
Registered No: 05073876
Address: 30 PORTLAND PLACE, LONDON, W1B 1LZ, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: Dissolved
Monitor this company
LAS VEGAS SANDS (SHEFFIELD UNITED) LIMITED
Registered No: 05074351
Address: 30 PORTLAND PLACE, LONDON, W1B 1LZ, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: Dissolved
Monitor this company
LAS VEGAS SANDS (UK) LIMITED
Registered No: 04824026
Address: 30 PORTLAND PLACE, LONDON, W1B 1LZ, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: In Liquidation
Monitor this company
I think I just found the missing link.
ordinaryfan
That looks intriguing ….. just waiting for someone to come along and explain the significance of your discovery.
ordinaryfan says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 17:48
Jackpot is the word!
So, Las Vegas Sands = Green.
For the dimwitted (me) – what are the other connections?
finloch says:
Wednesday, November 7, 2012 at 17:42
1 0 Rate This
The Hearts situation will get Wee Eck out of his FOI situation when he spoke to HMRC about Rangers FC and then wouldn’t say what he had asked them to do.
======
It may give him a veneer but it will not explain the reason given for refusal of FOI request.
From memory, he said that it would be detrimental to relations between Scottish and UK governments.
Is it just me or has it gone pretty quiet on here!? Bampots at work?
iki: So am I! Lol
Ah – so these are subsidiaries of the actual Las Vegas Sands, it seems.
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Las_Vegas_Sands_(LVS)/Subsidiaries
I wouldn’t like to see Hearts go down the tubes, whatever the reason.
Is there a HFFF that can be contributed to? Allyjambo, do you know?
The fact that Stuart Cosgrove has contributed confirms that TSFM, like it’s predecessor RTC, attracts mature comment. Sometimes speculative; sometimes wishful thinking; always reasoned.
With regard to SC’s treatise on the emerging maturity of “internet bampotery” and comment, on here earlier, to sources of material for Jonathan Watson for ‘Only An Excuse’: Can I suggest that TSFM should create a reference source to CG’s comments, direct quotations,in chronological order.
A page listing statements from coach McCoist’s masterclass would also entertain. I have, for instance, read of the need to use pickaxes over player’s heads in order to place envelopes. I have read that players must learn how to empty balls. I can’t, however, easily access the comments for reference.
A link to pages on this site to the verbatim comment – a sort of TSFM Wiki – would help me and, in all likelihood, academics like Jonathan Watson.
Having mentioned coaching and Ally’s masterclass I have to say that I long for the day when Scottish football brings back, and plays with, Archie Macpherson’s “intelligent ball”. I look forward to watching Celtic v Barcelona later and bet that axes, envelopes and empty balls will have no influence on the match…. maybe fans will once again witness the use of the “intelligent ball”.
CL going to sue to SFA