We thought it would be good to show the audience we have had over the last few months, and to say thanks to all those who have helped to make this a thriving community in the short time we have been on the go.
A Happy New year to all from everyone at TSFM.
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The WordPress.com stats helper monkeys prepared a 2012 annual report for this blog.
Here’s an excerpt:
About 55,000 tourists visit Liechtenstein every year. This blog was viewed about 3,500,000 times in 2012. If it were Liechtenstein, it would take about 64 years for that many people to see it. Your blog had more visits than a small country in Europe!
Troyblain
And your point is caller.
iceman63 says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 18:07
36 2 Rate This
Armageddon is here. The 5 way agreement marked the end of football as a sport in Scotland. Everything since has taken place in a Never-never Land where none of the previous rules of the game apply. Anyone expecting justice or logic or fairness at any point in the future within Scottish football will be sadly disappointed. The LNS enquiry will be weak and then subsequently weakened by SFA involvement. The clubs and fans will acquiesce and the charade will continue ad infinitum.
===============================
This seems to me pretty much where we are headed. Personally I feel like I am just awaiting the final few nails to be put in the coffin then I can watch Scottish Fitba be put in the ground and get closure before I find something better to do with my time. It’ll be difficult at first but I imagine the weight off my shoulders to not feel anything for our “national game” anymore will be quite significant.
And when the increasingly triumphant, obnoxious blue noses want to talk football I’ll simply state I don’t follow it and have no interest.
LNS inquiry may be the first of the final few nails to be applied. If it doesn’t find against the old Rangers and take some suitable action (which is then made to stick in the face of the inevitable legal challenge from The Rangers) then I can’t really see any point in bothering anymore. Its a shame on our own clubs but they have all been part of the problem by allowing this nonsense to fester for years. Hell mend them.
vforvernacular says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 23:20(Edit)
_________________________________________________________
I think that is the danger for Scottish football – that the corruption which has manifested itself so starkly over the last year will kill the game as a competition.
What the club chairmen, the constituent parts of the corrupt bodies we speak of daily, are banking on is that the emotional ties we have to our clubs will blind us to the fact that the game has become the UK equivalent of the WWF, in addition to aiding and abetting an escape from the consequences of tax evasion. Not for the love of Rangers at all though, but for the love of the money their fans are thought to bring to the table.
Sadly, they may be correct in their assumptions of fan loyalty. In ten years time all of this may be behind us, posterity recording that no change of any note has taken place.
It is a big gamble from the Chairmen, because no matter which way this pans out, looking the other way whilst one club shafts all the rest will definitely not attract people to the sport. The calculation involved is whether or not the people who abandon football because of this (and many already have in a financial sense) will inflict more of a loss financially than the banishment or long term absence of Rangers would have.
What they may not have bargained for was the raising of temperature by Charles Green and his rhetoric, the consequence of which may see people leaving the game in bigger numbers than was previously calculated.
My feeling is that the plan will be to keep that rhetoric flowing until Rangers are almost ready to return to the top league, when the narrative will become more conciliatory. I think the future of the game is still in the balance, but whether it survives or not, there can be little dispute that it will be weaker than it was when this tale began to play out.
The optimists amongst us must be in the minority now, for it is difficult to see how the instincts of the authorities to keep the Rangers pound flowing in Scottish football will change.
They (the clubs) had a real opportunity to change football for the better, perhaps even change society for the better in this country, but it was sacrificed on the altar of greed. Many right-thinking folk may find that unforgivable – and that is the biggest threat imaginable to football’s position as a national sport.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 21:34
20 1 Rate This
Flocculent Apoidea says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 21:31
…An investigation into why Rangers failed should be high on their priority list …
——
Dear Hairy Bee,
We’ve done wur investimagination. Craig Whyte done it and run off.
Love,
the SFA.
________________
Angus,
Thanks for posting the SFA response. Time to close the blog, draw a line under this integrity nonsense and move on. Move on to a future where the SFA see no reason to view themselves as part of a wider society but instead live in a bubble where financial ruin is just a hiccup with minor consequences.
Aren’t we all missing a trick here?
Any SPL club with a substantial debt should simply engineer a CVA that will not be accepted, have the fans complete a buyout, then enact the great switcheroo. Start again in the 3rd Division and the’re home and hosed with no debt hanging around their necks.
For a club like Killie, who have already been down to the depths of the lower leagues and worked their way back up, it would be worth it to absolve themselves of £9 million of debt.
Isn’t this what the SFA have facilitated for every club?
Heck ….. why the hell don’t 20 or so Third Lanark fans get together, buy twenty sets of the old strip, start playing out of Cathkin Park and call themselves Third Lanark? Surely the SFA would give them associate membership with all their history intact? Wouldn’t they??
Seriously though, Scottish football is now officially corrupt and very likely beyond redemption.
For me, I’ll support Killie until such time as the debt dodgers are back in the big time. After that, if teams like Killie still maintain they need the ghost that is ‘Rangers’ to survive, then hell mend such clubs but they won’t get another penny out of me.
I’ll support my club with all I’m worth but NOT if it means supporting the continued existence of corruption and sectarianism.
TSFM says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 23:50
‘..What they may not have bargained for was the raising of temperature by Charles Green and his rhetoric….’
—
And, as a consequence , they put themselves into a hopelessly compromised position.
They bargained with a new club to the point of foolishly and illicitly recognising it by giving it membership of the SFA ,and exposed themselves as men lacking in moral courage and principle.
Guys like CG don’t miss chances like that.
He has the SFA by the short and curlies.
He knows that they believe they need him.
He can therefore yank their chain and make them sit up and beg.
My constant theme has been that the present SFA board has lost any moral authority.
Worse than that, they have made it virtually impossible for any new board to try to rectify the situation, because, by the 5-way agreement, they might have put legal fetters on any fresh Board.
We will not know the full extent of the damage done until Nimmo Smith reports.
I believe that that report will actually be an entirely honest and wholly impartial, judicial report.
And If it finds the accused dead club innocent of all charges, I’ll accept that.
If , on the other hand,it finds that the dead club cheated its way to ‘sporting’ success, a huge question arises.
Namely,how likely is it that a totally discredited and cowardly SFA will then suddenly find the courage to take the action that- in consequence of failure by the dead club to stick to the rules- has to be taken against the dead club?
I wait and wonder.
(And ,as an aside,can I say that CG’s utterances are very, very similar to many of the ‘speeches’ of some of the most unstable and dangerous men of the twentieth century (and of the present day) in their incoherence and self- contradiction and flat denial of fact and distortion of truth?
We have seen his like before. The only difference is that his motivation is money rather than ideology.
Doesn’t make him any more cuddly.
bailemeanach says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 21:40
‘..I wonder if any other posters have any opinions of this?’
—–
At the risk of being controversial-which goes against my nature- I can more readily accept that Scottish journalists head south to Englandshire for the sake of their careers than I can accept that Irishmen ( and there’s been a whole damn lot of them) should do so.
In pretty much the same way that I have never really understood why the likes of James Joyce felt that he had to leave Ireland ‘for his art’ to be recognised.
Gombeen man, perhaps, at heart?
Or maybe a Brian Wilson or Michael Kelly?
Will the people really responsible for this mess ever step forward?
A happy new year to all…
Thought I’d kick off the new year with a little stat. Saints have now played every team at home once this season, so we can do a very quick comparison against the same team last season:
Team Last Year This Year Difference
Aberdeen 1607 4857 3250
Dundee UTD 4480 5014 534
Celtic 6759 6700 -59
St Mirren 2939 3223 284
Kilmarnock 2394 3113 719
Motherwell 2885 3112 227
Ross County (Pars) 3466 3037 -429
Hibs 3782 3266 -516
Hearts 2770 2974 204
ICT 2909 2975 66
Dundee (Rangers) 6459 5055 -1404
Increase 2876
av per match increase 261
So… no Armageddon up here in Perth anyway…
St.Mirren having played all 11 teams have a crowd reduction of 3.7%.
I think we can handle that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_St._Mirren_F.C._season
&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_St._Mirren_F.C._season
Thanks to Mix on Fir Park corner Motherwell forum for this:
Some Attendance info…Just had a look at the first 11 home games of last season against the first 11 home games of this season.
In the first 11 games last year we had Rangers and Celtic both at home and the average attendance for 11 games was 5476. This season we only had Celtic at home in the first 11 games and the average attendance is 5001.
If you were to substitute last years Rangers attendance in the average with the kind of attendance we got from Dundees visit this year last years average would have been 4951. So for all other games removing the impact of Rangers the other games are actually pulling in an average of an extra 61 punters a match, at least its up and shows that our attendances, other than the Rangers game effect, are not falling.
Last year we had Rangers at home twice pre split and Celtic at home once pre split. This season we were due Rangers at home once pre split and Celtic at home twice pre split. By the time we reach the split this season our attendance will in all likelihood be pretty much the same as last season.
The latest piece of “dog whistling” from mcmurdo jnr…..
More than a few bluenoses are waiting with trepidation for the results of the SPL inquiry into Rangers’ use of EBTs and side letters.
There is a genuine fear among the Rangers support that the end result of this inquiry will be the stripping of several SPL titles.
I believe this to be something we shouldn’t fear – and for very good reasons.
Make no mistake, I think there are those in the SPL who would dearly love to try and strip Rangers of titles. However, the momentum has been lost in terms of their ability to do so. Rangers FC is no longer on its knees, defenceless against the brute savagery of those who were lining up to kick us.
No, the club is strong and getting stronger. The playing squad is nowhere near the acceptable Rangers standard yet – but there is no need to sign players of that calibre while we work our way through the divisions. On top of this, several of Coisty’s Cubs show signs of being able to grow into the quality of player we will need in a few years time.
It has to be remembered that the SPL is in real trouble. If its proposals for reconstruction are booted out, it must continue in its present downward spiral or capitulate to the SFL proposals. If and when that happens, there will most likely no longer be an SPL in its present form. A new amalgamated ruling body will be created – one which will be much more heavily influenced by David Longmuir and his colleagues. In fact, it is very likely that Longmuir will be the new supremo of such a body.
So the SPL has a very limited window in which to pursue any title stripping. It also has to factor in the repercussions of taking such action.
Firstly, there is the enormous reaction this would receive from both Rangers fans and the club itself. Stripping Rangers of titles would really be akin to declaring civil war in Scottish football.
Then there are the literally global repercussions. As pointed out by my fellow blogger David Leggat, any ruling that Rangers players were unlawfully registered – i.e. effectively unregistered – will not just apply to domestic games played by those players but will also apply to European and international fixtures which these players were involved in. Theoretically, any club or national team would have a right of appeal to FIFA if they lost games featuring these unregistered players.
This actually could reflect badly on the SFA as they may be sanctioned by FIFA for fielding unregistered players in international matches!
On top of this is the fact that stripping Rangers of honours won on the field of play will spark off legal action by the players who won the silverware. Does the SPL have the funds and resources to fight this massive legal battle? I am aware that more than a few Rangers players from the time in question are determined to go to court should the SPL take the title stripping route.
It is also entirely feasible that corporate sponsors of the SPL could seek legal redress as their involvement would be, in effect, completely devalued by the nulling and voiding of titles. I am sure that television companies who bought the rights to show SPL games will also take a dim view of being told they bought a pig in a poke.
All of these things are powerful incentives for the SPL to consider binning the whole idea of title stripping. But there are two even more compelling reasons why Gers fans should sleep soundly in their beds and not fear.
Firstly, reconstruction must and will happen in our game. If the SPL tighten the noose round their own necks further by stripping Rangers of titles, then the solution is very simple:-
As a non-negotiable term of Rangers being involved in any reconstruction plans, the reinstatement of any and all stripped titles would be demanded by the club.
In a nutshell, reconstruction cannot happen without Rangers’ participation. It should be made clear that such participation will NEVER happen until the title stripping decision is rescinded.
It should be remembered that reconstruction will very likely take place under the auspices of an amalgamated body, one which will feature prominent inclusion and involvement of those clubs presently in the SFL. It is entirely possible that Rangers can procure from the SFL itself a commitment that reinstating stripped titles would be demanded as part of any bargaining process.
The second compelling reason why we should not fear the plundering of titles is arguably the biggest of all.
I am talking about Sky Television.
It is my understanding that Sky are more than prepared to play hardball on Rangers’ behalf should the farcical SPL continue to downgrade the product by pursuing their Rangers-hating agenda. It may just be Sky executives who tell the footballing authorities in Scotland that stripping Rangers of silverware is a big no-no if they want to retain their television-funded lifestyles.
And finally, there is one other aspect of this whole business that I have referred to more than once. It is the real question about side letters and off-book payments. That question is not: Are Rangers guilty? It is: Are all the other teams innocent?
It’s only a matter of time before at least one other club is exposed for finding creative ways to pay a player for his services on the field outwith his contract. I know such things are a part of the game here in Scotland, as do others. Let’s just say that you wouldn’t go broke selling brown envelopes to football teams in Scotland – or anywhere else for that matter.
Those caught up in a Rangers-hating frenzy and bloodlust to strip the Gers of silverware should ask themselves if they really want to open Pandora’s Box.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 21:19
readcelt says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 15:57
The daily dissection of the rangers share price is starting to be my least favourite type of post on this blog.
====================================================
I,as a layman(but worked with a stockbrokers for 7 years)am genuinely interested in the share issue,how it works,how the market can be manipulated,etc.
If you’re not interested,just move on.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Both opinions are right in their own way. Daily attention to share price is not particularly interesting unless you are managing a portfolio. On the other hand, the investment community uses market capitalisation, as opposed to sales or assets, to assess a company’s size, .Market capitalisation = number of shares x share price.
In August 2010, the old company had a market capitalisation of £35M.
Its business and assets were sold for £5.5million.
Capitalisation is currently about £60M for the new company.
There is a case for monitoring the capitalisation, which will probably also interest the liquidators.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 19:38
Long Time Lurker says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 19:28
I also get that Rangers as a football club from a spiritual sense live on – and yet the legal entity that was Rangers Football Club Ltd is dead.
——
Sounds about right to me. However – at the risk of treading old ground – who won all those titles? The spiritual bit?
Does this mean that, actually, Aberdeen FC have the responsibility for getting beat 36-0 off Arbroath AND 35-0 off Dundee on the same day in their (sort of) previous incarnations of Bon Accord and Aberdeen Rovers?
——
angus1983 – I agree that the old Club won the titles – and I think that that is the way it should be. Rangers Football Club Ltd could not service their debts and went into liquidation. The new Club have no achievements other than that which constitutes their current league position and cups runs since August 2012.
As a Aberdeen fan I would be gutted if AFC went bust – part of me would die with that loss. I would hope that the new club could move on and begin to emulate the best of the old club.
The rule makers (FIFA?) appear to have set up a very basic foundation – a club and the legal entity that constitutes that club are one in the same thing. If a club fields players that it cannot afford and that team goes bust – then that club and its achievements cannot carry on in that guise.
This to me appears to be a fair and simple means of working to ensure that football as a sport is and remains fair. Clubs should only be able to compete by putting a team on the park that they can sustain through the resources available to them.
paulsatim @ 09:37
Those caught up in a Rangers-hating frenzy and bloodlust to strip the Gers of silverware should ask themselves if they really want to open Pandora’s Box.
I really hope they do open Pandora’s Box, and expose the corruption that has ran through our game
There are those who want to sweep all of this under the carpet, as they are very afraid of all of the facts being exposed
And so once again the threats begin, and you have to wonder who is really running scared
paulsatim says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 09:37
0 3 Rate This
The latest piece of “dog whistling” from mcmurdo jnr…..”Those caught up in a Rangers-hating frenzy and bloodlust to strip the Gers of silverware should ask themselves if they really want to open Pandora’s Box.”
==============
Well, Mr McMurdo, I’ve asked myself the question and the answer is a definite yes. Can I look inside now, please? You see I’ve got nothing to hide, but you, the whole of the MSM, the football “authorities” and everyone connected with TRFC are all busily pulling on the brown trousers, you are all so afraid of the truth being revealed.
And if you are threatening violence on the streets, in a sort of shorthand way, then please note that I pay handsomely through taxation for a police force that can deal with such matters. If they could beat down 200,000 miners in the 80’s, then I don’t anticipate them having too many problems dealing with a few thousand knuckle draggers.
Paul McConvilles predictions for 2013:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/predictions-for-2013-all-wrong-or-your-money-back-part-1-blogging-legal-and-rangers/
Awright Danish? (I like to think I type that in the same way as Bricktop says “Turkish” In Lock Stock)
I know those questions were meant as rhetorical but tbh it was first couple of days back at work (in England we don’t get the 2nd off), I was supping my coffee, and I thought I’d put my thoughts on them into words.
TBH I think we are pretty much in agreement on most things – monitoring the media is a full time job – even the wee mainstream media in Scotland – I am not sure this site is either built for, or even capable of, doing that.
I agree that the multiple topics discussed under a single thread does make things hard to follow and some topics (specfically auldheid’s letter as nawlite says) deserve to still be front and centre of our thoughts. The downside of having multiple threads is a) it sometimes removes cross-fertilisation of ideas as people stick to what the think they are interested in and b) it takes longer for readers to update themselves on what’s been posted. I was in favour of the single thread option previously but I am coming around to maybe have a few categories – general posts, but then a couple of threads on monitoring the media, governing bodies etc.
I personally enjoy trolls – I feel it is a duty to inform the unenlightened. Patience and a calm attitude either brings them round or they tie themselves in knots – either way I find it quite entertaining. 🙂
I was being deliberately obtuse regarding the confirmatory bias question – I see it basically as the yang to cognitive dissonance’s ying. It’s “I think something and I will find the information to prove it”. Hence the convulsions the site was in when it came to the FTTT initial decision.
As for the subsequent discussion as to “will we ever get an Old Firm” again – guaranteed 100% we will .
Whether the fans want it or not, the media will brand it as such. And even moreso as it will be “IT’S BACK! The first Old Firm game for x years…” etc. It was always a media construct – after all it was the media that coined the phrase back in the early 1900s… It’ll be revived, I guarantee you.
torrejohnbhoy says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 21:19
Why don’t you tell us what sort of posts you like and I’ll make sure you get them.
Everything with regard to RIFC is on a loop.Most topics have been discussed to death but still stir enough emotions.
I,as a layman(but worked with a stockbrokers for 7 years)am genuinely interested in the share issue,how it works,how the market can be manipulated,etc.
If you’re not interested,just move on.
…………………………………………………………………………..
…………………………………………………………………………..
torrejohnbhoy,,, I agree, if it was just a regular share issue and raising of capital then fine but this issue was carried out by rouges and spivs, bought into by rouges and spivs and before anyone says thats how the market works this particular scam could only have happened with the help of high ranking officials of Scottish football.
There are still many secrets hidden within these investors and somewhere, someone will slip up and leave a trail.
I like you look daily at the share price and I also fully expect a correction to happen but still dont understand where these institutions(who could have invested my money) will get there return.
The original investors had free shares handed to them so even with a sudden collapse could still get out with high returns but if the institutions paid anything like the 70p stated then when the price starts to come down who is going to buy their 17 million pounds or so of shares?
Long Time Lurker says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 09:56
angus1983 says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 19:38
Long Time Lurker says:
Thursday, January 3, 2013 at 19:28
I also get that Rangers as a football club from a spiritual sense live on – and yet the legal entity that was Rangers Football Club Ltd is dead.
——
angus1983 – I agree that the old Club won the titles – and I think that that is the way it should be. Rangers Football Club Ltd could not service their debts and went into liquidation. The new Club have no achievements other than that which constitutes their current league position and cups runs since August 2012.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I wonder who has (owns?) the historical correspondence files and other documented records of the old club? My expectation is that the correspondence with SFA etc would remain in the hands of The Rangers Football Club plc/RFC 2012 plc as this information would be important to the liquidators.
Or did Sevco get the correspondence and records when they moved into Ibrox?
Well that appears to be it as far as McMurdo is concerned, {see above) guilty or not punishement by title stripping will not be accepted. Well that has certainly put the rest of us firmly in our places.
Why does UEFA only show the Rangers womens team ?
http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/index.html
jockybhoy says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 10:44
1 0 Rate This
Awright Danish? (I like to think I type that in the same way as Bricktop says “Turkish” In Lock Stock)
I know those questions were meant as rhetorical but tbh it was first couple of days back at work (in England we don’t get the 2nd off), I was supping my coffee, and I thought I’d put my thoughts on them into words.
TBH I think we are pretty much in agreement on most things – monitoring the media is a full time job – even the wee mainstream media in Scotland – I am not sure this site is either built for, or even capable of, doing that.
I agree that the multiple topics discussed under a single thread does make things hard to follow and some topics (specfically auldheid’s letter as nawlite says) deserve to still be front and centre of our thoughts. The downside of having multiple threads is a) it sometimes removes cross-fertilisation of ideas as people stick to what the think they are interested in and b) it takes longer for readers to update themselves on what’s been posted. I was in favour of the single thread option previously but I am coming around to maybe have a few categories – general posts, but then a couple of threads on monitoring the media, governing bodies etc.
I personally enjoy trolls – I feel it is a duty to inform the unenlightened. Patience and a calm attitude either brings them round or they tie themselves in knots – either way I find it quite entertaining.
I was being deliberately obtuse regarding the confirmatory bias question – I see it basically as the yang to cognitive dissonance’s ying. It’s “I think something and I will find the information to prove it”. Hence the convulsions the site was in when it came to the FTTT initial decision.
As for the subsequent discussion as to “will we ever get an Old Firm” again – guaranteed 100% we will .
Whether the fans want it or not, the media will brand it as such. And even moreso as it will be “IT’S BACK! The first Old Firm game for x years…” etc. It was always a media construct – after all it was the media that coined the phrase back in the early 1900s… It’ll be revived, I guarantee you.
————–
Cheers Jocky,
Yes, a few catagories would be good, not too many – it’s difficult to deal properly with more than two or three issues at a time, even my multi-tasking missus can’t 🙂
The alternative is the forum setup, which becomes unfocused and almost impossible to admin. I like your cross-pollination thought, that is exactly what happens on the single, albeit dog’s breakfast of a single blog. The cross-pollination of ideas would probably continue though, even if there were a couple of current threads instead of just the one.
The OF may come back in name, used by Sky, but in reality it will only revive if both of the big two will. If I interpret Celtic supporters on here correctly they feel it was an abomination best consigned to history. I agree with them. But is this forum representative of the majority? If it does re-emerge as a going concern and a power block to dominate Scottish football politics, we’ll be back to the ‘two cheeks-same arse’ argument. If I was in the boardroom at Celtic Park I’d be looking to use the next couple of years to distance the club from that past, forge new alliances, and promote Celtic as the main Glasgow and Scottish club. In that regard, a few more Saltires wouldn’t go amiss at Parkhead, even if they are green
spanishcelt says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 10:45
———————————————————————————————————
Firstly,
I apologise to Readcelt.My tone may have been a wee bit OTT,I feel,however,if the blog is to continue as a single thread,then anyone should be allowed to post what they think is relevant or may be of interest to other readers.If the subject doesn’t interest you,just ignore it.
My interest in the share issue goes back to my days working in that industry.That was over 30 years ago,before The Big Bang of 1986 that totally changed the business.I’m not up to date with the current machinations of the Stock Exchange(In my day we had one in Glasgow)so any advice is appreciated.
I look for large amounts of shares as these are almost certainly institutions or some of Greens “investors”,to see if a pattern emerges.
Here’s what’s happened since yesterday afternoon:
At 2.30pm someone bought 50k shares at 93p.
At 4.23pm a deal for 25k shares was done at the mid price of 92p
This was repeated at 4.34pm.I don’t know if these were sales or purchases.
Between these 2 deals someone sold 10k shares at 91p.
I accept this could all be coincidence but someone who knows the AIM market may read something else in this.
That’s what I’m interested in.If someone thinks a pattern may be emerging,please let me know.It doesn’t matter if it turns out to be wrong.The possibility was there.Every day’s a school day.
Bunion says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 00:33
What if by mutual agreement all clubs in the SPL (even without Celtic) decided to do the switchero as you describe and get rid of their debt and start again. If that happened what would be the reaction of the SPL/SFL and SFA if we had an enmass application to the lower teir. This would turn everything upside down where the bottom league is the top league, how bizarre would that be, to bizarre I suppose to happen. No entry in European competition etc would of prevent this from happening.
On seperate issue regarding Mr McMurdo everytime I read comments such as his the more I feel no pain for Rangers (if I ever did) and the more I hope whatever form of Rangers get hammered. I have no doubt that his father had many brown envelopes in his possession and I would think agents should have as much to fear on exposure as anyone. I know of one Agent who allegedly gave a substantial amount of cash to two players just to act of their behalf.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/spiers-on-sport-by-winter-break-spl-has-been-surprisingly-good.1357205187
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 11:44
0 0
———————————
If you want to look for a pattern you should do it over a month or quarterly spread. Looking daily will tell you nothing as it will only give you a snap shot that you will have nothing to compare against.
For my sins, i work as an analyst.
torrejohnbhoy
If you really want to track the share price and the buying and selling moves, I suggest keying the details into a spreadsheet and checking trends and any correlation over a prolonged time frame.
Thats about as much fun as an @nal cyst (see what i did there?) but you are more likely to glean any relevant information in that way.
I’m sure you’re right.Gives me something to do while lying in my bed bored!
Danish – I think fans of teams other than Celtic and Rangers are happier calling the two teams “the Old Firm” than the participants are as it is a) demeaning shorthand and b) is a self-fulfilling “two cheeks” argument.
redetin Friday, January 4, 2013 at 09:53
In August 2010, the old company had a market capitalisation of £35M.
Its business and assets were sold for £5.5million.
Capitalisation is currently about £60M for the new company.
That seems about right – “company” valued at £35m but with huge unserviceable debt. They walk away from £30m (minimum) of debt and, hey presto!, the company is worth £65m. Where’s the problem?
Duff & Phelps sold to Carlyle group.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/400m-buyout-of-duff-phelps.19825862
Maybe Carlyle will sell some parts off?
redetin says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 12:43
Duff & Phelps sold to Carlyle group.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/400m-buyout-of-duff-phelps.19825862
Maybe Carlyle will sell some parts off?
=============================================================
Did they buy the “History”?.
Maybe someone could analyse this post from someone on the LSE site:
The issue price of 70p compares with cash and asset values consistent with a share price of 210p. Normally with placings like this and especially shares in football clubs, the price goes down after the excitement of the initial launch. In this case, the initial sp was seriously under valued and it should be no surprise to anyone that the price has gone up. With results on the park positive, huge support behind the club and strong business minded management, it looks like we’re in for a continued rise. The figures are all promising. The 12th highest home attendances in Europe, highest home attendances in Scotland, 30,000 travelling supporters for a fourth tier game, highest viewing figures for televised matches in Scotland and five figure audiences for games broadcast on the internet. Factor in the media interest from Italy to the Argentine and from Japan to Canada. This is a very exciting investment.
In addition to a support larger than the rest of Scottish football added together, there is also the institutional support. What we are seeing is the highly unusual footballing situation where it makes sense for large investors to get on board as exactly that. Investors.
=================
210p.
At that price RIFC would be worth more than half of the EPL!
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 12:12
torrejohnbhoy can you post the full story? I do not subscribe to the Herald and therefore only get extract.
carlislecelt says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 13:03
==========================================
CC,
If you mean the post above that’s all I have.It’s from a poster on here:
http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=rangers_int
I’ll look around and see if I can find the whole thing,though.
Trfc fans are quite open about boycotting certain SPL teams as a punishment for treating rangers with the contempt they deserve.
They are quite open about destroying reconstruction and splitting the country into two seperate factions if the LNS enquiry finds against them.
The Trfc forums are openly rallying the troops for some kind of holy war against the hidden hand of the immigrants ( their words ) who are apparently trying to destroy the British traditions.
Trfc have no desire to accept any responsibility for the actions of their club and its predecessor in the undisclosed payments enquiry. An enquiry that if upheld, must result in title stripping before any appropriate punishment is decided.
Unless Trfc are cleared, apologised to and fast tracked up the leagues then they plan to destroy the other clubs by simply refusing to take part in Scottish football, and will utilise the hordes and the courts to have their will imposed upon us.
Angry and inflammatory statements from the chairman, manager and ex players are published as unchallangable statements of fact and the msm and governing bodies have done nothing to address this dangerous tactic.
If Trfc win on all counts then i imagine that will galvanise them further and finally alienate the last of the ordinary supporters of our own clubs.
Trfc will be left to dominate a failed league in a failing country with no hope of recovery.
Probably suit the SFA right down to the ground that will.
readcelt says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 12:29
torrejohnbhoy
If you really want to track the share price and the buying and selling moves, I suggest keying the details into a spreadsheet and checking trends and any correlation over a prolonged time frame.
Thats about as much fun as an @nal cyst (see what i did there?) but you are more likely to glean any relevant information in that way.
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I wouldn’t know a spreadsheet if it jumped out in front of me.I’ll have to ask my wife or daughter to show me what to do
Any obvious faces missing from this list ? 🙂
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hmrcgovuk/sets/72157632409515581
Maybe someone should pass this on to the SFA:
Gregory Ioannidis @LawTop20
The rules makers must always show respect for their own rules. Above all, they must follow the normative environment they created.
readcelt says:
torrejohnbhoy
If you really want to track the share price and the buying and selling moves, I suggest keying the details into a spreadsheet and checking trends and any correlation over a prolonged time frame.
Thats about as much fun as an @nal cyst (see what i did there?) but you are more likely to glean any relevant information in that way.
======================================================================
Readcelt…I certainly see what you did…!
I have used similar “anal” ogies in the past regarding your “anal” yst colleagues, sadly spouting appropriate waste products, usually in the form of “anal” ysis…!
My appreciation to you and Redetin for your erudite comments on the initial and mundane movements on the TRFC share price…not my area of specific expertise and I can read too much “whataboutery” in many rhetorical comments aired on here. Let us wait for the medium to longer term, e.g.6-18 months, when the Spivs will be free to really make their own market in this little ruse.
PS my “other” best friend is a stockbroker retired and has made some derisory comments both before and after admission to listing…but he is a West Ham fan…and I simply could not persuade him to “invest”…!
campsiejoe says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 10:02
48 1 Rate This
paulsatim @ 09:37
Those caught up in a Rangers-hating frenzy and bloodlust to strip the Gers of silverware should ask themselves if they really want to open Pandora’s Box.
I really hope they do open Pandora’s Box, and expose the corruption that has ran through our game
There are those who want to sweep all of this under the carpet, as they are very afraid of all of the facts being exposed
And so once again the threats begin, and you have to wonder who is really running scared
=========================
Spot on, Joe
You too, Neepheid!!
Was wondering if the thumbs uppers agree with mcmurdo?
If you follow Stirling Albion and are under 17 years of age,here’s a great deal for you.In fact a good deal for everyone:
Stirling Albion FC @Stirling_Albion
Half season tickets go on sale on Monday, priced £75 for adults, £50 for seniors/students and just £15 for U17s
As I follow the discussions on the TRFC share issue one glaring issue sticks in my fair minded throat. Green claims to have raised over £20m and him and all the ex bears still claim “their history is intact” Well Mr Green why not, even out of a sense of fairness (I know Sevco and fairness!!) pay off some of the small creditors your club still owe, or even the Scottish Ambulance Service who I believe are still whistling for their money. A charity Mr Green.
Oh and Mr Green please STOP your silly “We are now debt free” and realise WHY your club is debt free by renaging on all it’s debts and responsibilities.
paulsatim says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 14:10
0 0 Rate This
You too, Neepheid!!
Was wondering if the thumbs uppers agree with mcmurdo?
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I very much doubt it, but I’m sorry if my way of presenting quotes could leave that impression. I’ll try to change format if that’s the case.
OT I know, but re the cleaned up version of that song, howzabout….
Hullo, hullo, we are the Billy boys
Hullo, hullo, no pram can hold our toys
We’re up to our knees in creditor blood
and ours too, cos we died
for we were subservient Billy boys
Sorry!
neepheid says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 14:36
1 0 Rate This
paulsatim says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 14:10
0 0 Rate This
You too, Neepheid!!
Was wondering if the thumbs uppers agree with mcmurdo?
=====
I very much doubt it, but I’m sorry if my way of presenting quotes could leave that impression. I’ll try to change format if that’s the case.
Neepheid, i was talking about the 2 TUs on my original post, not yours, mate!!
P McCs predictions,Part 2:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/predictions-for-2013-remember-i-thought-the-mayans-were-right-part-2-sport-and-politics/
torrejohnbhoy says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 13:28
readcelt says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 12:29
torrejohnbhoy
If you really want to track the share price and the buying and selling moves, I suggest keying the details into a spreadsheet and checking trends and any correlation over a prolonged time frame.
Thats about as much fun as an @nal cyst (see what i did there?) but you are more likely to glean any relevant information in that way.
===========================================================
I wouldn’t know a spreadsheet if it jumped out in front of me.I’ll have to ask my wife or daughter to show me what to do
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No need to bother wi spreadsheets. Just go to one of the share dealing pages and you can read and draw the graphs for any period you want. lse is as good as any:-
http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareChart.asp?sharechart=RFC&share=rangers_int
I only look at rfc because I manage my shares via a share dealing acc. I have no interest in buying and selling rfc shares, make enough mistakes wi stuff I ken aboot.
In common football parlance, there is the term, ‘the better team’. Sometimes it is claimed that the losing team were ‘the better team’. Even where the vast majority of observers might claim that the losing team were ‘the better team’, in a knockout competition for example, the weight of majority opinion doesn’t put the losing team through – the rules of the game must be followed and can’t be set aside. One team lost and the other won. The winning team goes through.
Similarly, majority opinion (Fans opinion, MSM opinion, administrators opinion, etc.) doesn’t define what has, is or will happen in the proper administration of the game – it must be based on the proper application of the rules. ‘Proper’ can be considered to be that which is consistent with the principles of the game, with sporting integrity, honesty and fairness, and (importantly) consistent with the reality of an event – before the event, during the event and after the event – continuing a ‘narrative’ of maintaining the standards of the sport’s rules.
To the sporting purist one team or competitor opposes another under the rules and plays out the game or match, simply to see who wins – to see who’s best on the day. In its purest form, the competitors don’t care who is watching. Spectators dont really come into calculations. Commercialisation of various sports has seen this ideal compromised to some extent or another, with adaptations to the sport made to suit the paying spectator. Taken to the fullest extent, we have the circus that is WWE, with its choreographed wrestling ‘bouts’ and fully pre-arranged outcomes.
Should we take this well along the road with the continuing principles of commercial interests usurping sporting integrity until its ultimate conclusion we would have Barca as the football equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters (remember them?) and various individuals of the equivalent celebrity status of Diana Ross taking all the penalties, with ‘obviously’ a fixed quota of penalties per game. Players would be ordered to an early bath by a poll a la Big Bother (intentional mis-spelling), with the obese fingers of couch dwelling multitudes pressing buttons on TV remotes or other such devices, casting their votes on who should be sent off, substituted or indeed ‘win’ the game.
For the sake of the game it must be administrated far better than it has been through the commercially driven period of the last couple of decades. Higher standards are required.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 00:13
… Move on to a future where the SFA see no reason to view themselves as part of a wider society but instead live in a bubble where financial ruin is just a hiccup with minor consequences.
——
A future? Where have you been for the last year, bee? 🙂
Which players have given away the most fouls in the SPL this season?
http://sport.stv.tv/blog/208406-which-players-have-given-away-the-most-fouls-in-the-spl-this-season/?
David McCloy says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 15:22
…
For the sake of the game it must be administrated far better than it has been through the commercially driven period of the last couple of decades. Higher standards are required.
===========================
And it comes back to Auldheid’s draft letter, whereby the SFA needs to go back to basics, and clearly define its own role – or Mission Statement.
The SFA should also clearly state that commercial interests will always come secondary to upholding sporting integrity across all of Scottish football.
If the SFA had adhered to this basic underlying principal, then the rule bending/ignoring/creating to favour one club would simply not have been allowed to happen in the first instance. The rules would have been applied in a fair and consistent manner.
D’oh, now I get it ! That’s why the SFA chooses not to have a Mission Statement… 🙄
[O/T, I took the family to see the Harlem Globetrotters play here last January. Great fun, and would you believe they won the game with the last throw – and retained their ‘World Championship’ for about the 40th consecutive year !]
principle
The Scotsman today, “Changing Room Chat” column, inside back page …
“Rangers may have chalked up 11 wins in a row, but they are only halfway to beating a 114-year-old club record.”
The piece goes on to explain how Rangers did this, that and the next thing ranging from 1898 to 2002.
I think we’re fighting a losing battle on the new club thing. It’s prety much become accepted that they’re to be seen as a continuation.
Meanwhile, why so much fuss about title-stripping again? Surely there are a lot worse things that could happen to TRFC should LNS be so minded?
I believe the title-stripping hullabaloo to be an attempt to filter into the general consciousness that this is the worst thing that can happen, and is in fact beyond the pale. Meanwhile, if Old Rangers lose a few titles and that’s the end of it, Mr Green will have a quiet smirk into his cup of tea.
angus1983 @ 16:56
We can’t give up on the new club = old club argument, as it is central to everything that has happened to our game since last February
What the MSM and the Sevco apologists are completely ignoring, is that for 5 to 6 weeks after 14th June, there was no club called RFC
Remember, they couldn’t play a single pre-season friendly, against opposition of any level, as the football club did not exist
I don’t think we are fighting a losing battle, just sticking to the facts RFC and TRFC and 2 different clubs.
UEFA only list list the RFC womans team as an existing club and for some reason they have not updated the Rangers squad since their last game, last season.
It is very simple, stick to the facts, no matter what misinformation is trotted out.
If it is the same club then settle all debts.
Choose A or B
A.
Rangers then, Rangers now, Rangers forever.
Corruption then, corruption now, corruption forever.
B.
Rules then, Rules now, Rules forever.
Integrity then, integrity now, integrity forever.
This is the choice facing every single person in Scottish Football.
Vanguard Bears are trying to promote a ‘copy & paste’ email campaign directed at everyone and their dog. [Won’t post ink.]
A choice extract is below, for the bears to send to Shona Robinson, Minister of Commonwealth Games and Sport to complain about the SFA/SPL…for giving them a licence ? 🙄
==========================
“…Perhaps the suggestion that Rangers Chief Executive, Mr Charles Green, was “blackmailed” into accepting such a transfer [sic] embargo in return for an SFA licence confirms that this situation is totally untenable.
The individuals concerned remain in post at the respective governing bodies.
I would ask you to give careful consideration to the ramifications and consequences of this. In a country where we instruct our schoolchildren not to bear the bully, where we encourage workplace staff to report intimidation, is it acceptable that we turn a blind eye to such conduct within the governing bodies of our national game ?
Where we have a whole host of respected SFL chairmen providing corroboratory evidence that they were bullied, threatened and manipulated by those in governance of our national game, is it it not incumbent upon us to not only ask questions within parliament, but to launch an enquiry in order to establish what actually transpired ?..”
or campbells version
C. Rules then, Rules now, Rules forever (for everyone except for RFC then, sevco now, sevco for the meantime)
angus1983 says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 16:56
“Meanwhile, if Old Rangers lose a few titles and that’s the end of it, Mr Green will have a quiet smirk into his cup of tea”
Correct. Throw the book at ‘them’.
interesting quirky connection to another football story :
pro patria then, pro patria now, pro patria forever… and with an unwholesome section of fans (ciao ciao siamo i ragazzi di billy!) 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_Pro_Patria_1919
After watching our “pal” Ally on STV tonight, all decent fans everywhere totally agree…
Mr Green and Ally….. GIVE US A BREAK
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/39675497395/refereeing-in-the-spotlight
On the Edinburgh Derby, Jamie Murphy’s Tom Daley impression and why the legacy of the refereeing strike that has culture of Scottish referees banding together to defend each other must end.
Re McMurdo’s dinnae strip the titles m’lud
At risk of repetition could I remind everyone of Brenda’s (sorry Brenda if it wasn’t you) burglar analogy. When a burglar is seen coming out of the window with a tele he doesn’t simply gve the tele back and walk.
On a completely unrelated matter in case I am accused of obsession, put yourselves in the Rangers money men’s shoes 14 months ago. If you were given the chance of an FTTT let off, plus a few titles stripped (in return for a few thousand season ticket sales of course) plus maybe even your place man at the top falling on his sword to appease the bampots, would you accept this as a good deal? Blumin right you would.
Mcmurdo (s)he doth protest too much
smugas says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 20:31
Mcmurdo (s)he doth protest too much
=====================================
do you know something we dont? LOL
smugas @ 20:31
It wasn’t me but no problem 🙂
bayviewgold says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 19:33
‘..(ciao ciao siamo i ragazzi di billy!) :)’
—
O, forse, i figli di Gulielmo! 🙂
Angus1983
Nail on head.
The protests re. stripping is the old Fox and Rabbit ploy.
It worked before, why change a winning formula.
It’s not so long ago when they were hit with a transfer embargo only for it to be overturned on the basis that it was not part of the prescribed punishments. I often wonder about that particular faux pas – ok, paranoia perhaps. That punishment was suggested instead of the proper admonishment, I wonder why!
Fast forward and we now have the hysteric bleating about title stripping – IMO the minimum punishment that could be contemplated. The proper punishment for cheating on this grand of scale is expulsion from the SFA for a period of five years, plus, the allocating of titles secured by cheating to the rightful winners.
This is not a time for silence. The cheated must insist on the appropriate punishment being administered, and not allow the impression go abroad that the cheaters are the victims.
I forgot to add that when the embargo was eventually applied the cheaters were allowed a three month window to sign whoever the wished, thus once again demonstrating the fact that (in Scottish football) cheating does pay.
Ever time I look back at this saga it becomes more and more incredible what has transpired and continues to transpire.
Anybody running a book on LNS bets ?
1) LNS inquiry is delayed by the SPL,
to get further legal advice, to consult SFA/UEFA, they double-booked the meeting room or
some other lame excuse.
2) LNS inquiry is delayed by LNS,
because of a clash of other commitments, illness, his budgie died, whatever.
3) LNS inquiry is convened, but then almost immediately suspended,
due to new evidence, TRFC request to be involved, or other.
4) LNS inquiry goes ahead on time, but must reconvene in the future,
due to the underestimated volume of evidence, etc.
5) LNS inquiry goes ahead, is completed but decision is withheld,
due to ‘legal reasons’, need to consult with UEFA or some such nonsense.
6) LNS inquiry goes ahead but only consequence is communicated / punishment to be decided.
Stripping of titles confirmed. [Don’t think this is a good bet. 🙁 ]
7) LNS inquiry goes ahead, with titles stripped and punishment announced.
High odds for this bet ?
8) On January 28th TRFC announce that they do indeed want to be involved in the inquiry, so a
new date ‘is to be announced at a later date’.
Then return to betting option 1) above and continue.
Decent odds for this one (?) because then TRFC would have some control and can pretend it’s
the FTTT, and delay, delay, delay !
9) On January 29th Charlie prostrates himself across the stairs of Hampden and admits that
Rangers where cheats, TRFC is really, really sorry, and the club will accept any consequence and
punishment simply to ‘do the right thing’ and to help Scottish football to ‘move on’ to a brighter
and better future.
10,000/1 ?
Sevco and its cheerleaders do not want the LNS enquiry to go ahead, as they know there probably won’t be a favourable outcome for them, as it has already been established that there is a prima facie case to answer
They will do everything they can to delay and obstruct it, including their time honoured tactics of threatening and bullying
We can expect to see the tactics ramped up in the course of the next few weeks as they double and then re-double their efforts to derail it, with motormouth Green leading the way
They managed to get a 1st leg result at the FTT, but if this tribunal goes against them, then they will be exposed as sporting cheats, which in the eyes of many will be more heinous than mere tax avoidance
Charlie will also be placed in a very difficult position, as he will have to make a choice between being the old club and taking whatever sanctions come his way, or playing the new club card in an effort to avoid those sanctions
Either way his pathetic “I bought the history” will not work, just as someone who buys stolen goods won’t be allowed to keep them
I think it is about to get interesting again, and hopefully this time there will be people prepared to stand up to the threats of hellfire and brimstone they want to shower on Scottish football
Senior
You are of course correct and may I add that even if (and it’s a big if ) LNS finds the sandy gauls to find them guilty and title stripping is the sanction the SFA are the fall back for the appeal .
This is the same SFA that find nothing wrong with their top man being indebted to the dead club being investigated to the tune of £96.000 (or a good night out )
IMO the game here has been bared for all to see during this farce and it ain’t pretty ,in fact it’s proved to me that all the years I thought the game here was bent ,I actually underestimated the extent of the corruption ,this may not sit well with a lot of people but it’s not a thought with me anymore it’s a firm belief and that has sullied my love of the game here .
I was never in favour of my club moving from Scottish football but if things go on as they have been ,I may well just pack it all in until my club find a way out of here and that really saddens me because it did not have to be that way .
StevieBC says:
Friday, January 4, 2013 at 22:08
0 0 Rate This
Anybody running a book on LNS bets ?
=======
LNS does the business as requested.
Reports in confidence to SPL.
Spl schedules for next meeting.
Decision sent to TRFC in confidence in order that TRFC is given full opportunity to appeal.
Two weeks later, TRFC appeal to SFA.
SFA schedule for next meeting.
SFA sends result of appeal to TRFC in confidence.
TRFC raises action in court stating that Ogilvie is compromised because he may perceived to be trying to protect his own reputation by supporting the sanctions.
Court sends business back to SFA because it has acted outwith strict interpretation of rules.
SFA announces that there may be some delay in dealing with the matter because the offices are closed for the holidays and will not be open until after the New Year.
Campbell Ogilvie goes for a good night out.
Stoap bleatin an moanin ally yir in the 3rd division toughen up ya wee whinger …….. Lol 🙂